# Sonny Brown > MMA & Jiu-Jitsu Analysis, Coaching & Education > Generated by All in One SEO Pro v5.0.3, this is an llms-full.txt file, used by LLMs to index the site. ## Posts ### [Self-Determination Theory Of Motivation For Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) **Published:** May 2, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Self Determination Theory Of Motivation For Martial Artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/self_determination_theory_martial_arts-1-1024x576.jpg "Self Determination Theory Of Motivation For Martial Artists › Sonny Brown")Motivated students are required in every martial arts academy as it will drive them to want to improve. While multiple theories of motivation exist, one that has been extensively studied in education settings is Self-Determination Theory. ## Self-Determination Theory In Self-Determination Theory, unmotivated students are said to suffer from **Amotivation**, which describes a feeling of indifference to [training or only training because you have no control](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) over if you do, which may be the case for kids' classes. But for adults, no one who enters a martial arts academy suffers from Amotivation; otherwise, they would not have joined or gone to the gym to start training in the first place. From the first lesson, keeping and building on that initial motivation should be the goal so that they never go backwards or lose the motivation to train. ## The Two Types Of Motivation ![Two types of motivation: intrinsic and extrinsic motivation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sdt_two_types_motivate-1024x588.png "sdt_two_types_motivate › Sonny Brown")Self-Determination Theory defines two primary sources of motivation; those being Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation. Intrinsic motivation occurs internally for pure satisfaction gained from the training itself, whereas extrinsic motivation is for an external reward or to avoid punishment. External motivations are inbuilt into most martial arts; belts and grades are a common means to develop extrinsic motivation and give students an easily identifiable goal. But If training is fun and interesting enough to cause the motivation to come from within, then people will continue to train without an external motivator. ## Self-Determination Theory: The Three Basic Needs ![The Three Basic Needs of Motivation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sdt_three_needs_motivation-1024x588.png "sdt_three_needs_motivation › Sonny Brown")To develop a source of Intrinsic Motivation, you must have these three basic needs addressed. - **Autonomy:** Having a choice over what you train and how you learn to feel as if you have some control and independence. - **Competence:** The ability to feel like you are successful at what you do and that you can attain mastery from your training. - **Relatedness:** Social connections among those you train with to feel as if you are not training alone. Developing Autonomy, Competence, and Relatedness leads to greater student engagement, resulting in more reliable performance, creativity, and attendance. # Intrinsic Motivation ![Intrinsic Motivation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sdt_intrinsic_motivation-1-1024x398.png "sdt_intrinsic_motivation-1 › Sonny Brown")Ideally, we develop intrinsic motivation in ourselves or our students so that they continue to train regardless of external influences that are temporary or out of their control. We can do so by addressing the three basic needs. ## Basic Need: Autonomy - Autonomy refers to the level of independence or choice a student has over the required tasks, drills, or techniques taught in training. - Students need to feel that they have some control over their training direction, behaviour, and lives. - Developing autonomy within students will make them feel like they can take charge of their martial arts training. ### Autonomy: Giving Students Control - Autonomy can be developed by offering different techniques or drills for students to practice in the same class. - You could also have separate class streams that simultaneously work on different techniques or elements. - It can also come by asking more questions about techniques and encouraging them to ask questions to involve them [rather than telling them all the answers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/tum-voorn-jiu-jitsu-inquiry-based-learning/ "An Inquiry-Based Instructional Strategy of Teaching Without Telling With Tum “Energia” Voorn"). ## Basic Need: Competence - Competence refers to the ability of the student to be successful or attain mastery in their training. - Being competent will give people a positive feeling that they are being effective and developing their skills. - Autonomy will not fully work to improve internal motivation without competence. It doesn't matter how many choices or options you have if people cannot feel like they cannot do them successfully. ### Competence: Making Students Effective - Techniques need to match students' skill level, or they need to be given choices for varied physical abilities. Different ways to achieve the same technical result would need to consider flexibility, strength, injuries, body types and pre-existing skills. - Authentic praise or positive feedback can also help build a sense of competence. The positive feedback needs to be genuine, but if you have lessons designed so everyone can achieve a level of competence, it should be possible. ## Basic Need: Relatedness - Relatedness refers to the social connections between the instructor, students, and peers within the class. - Having genuine care and concern for students and building that among the club by promoting positive interactions between everyone. - Building positive social group dynamics will lead to the camaraderie of a club as they train together as a team. ### Relatedness: Helping Students Belong - You can develop relatedness within the class by having ways for students to interact with each other in smaller groups rather than only passively receiving instructions. - Talking about topics outside of training and allowing those interactions allow time for one-on-one interactions. - Team-building or group exercises can be used to make students feel that they are all in it together and on the same team. If you successfully meet all three of these motivational needs within your class, then internal motivation will be able to develop within the students. But internal motivation will also come into contact and be influenced by many external factors that may be out of control or built into the martial art. # Extrinsic Motivation ![Extrinsic Motivation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sdt_extrinsic_motivation-2-1024x398.png "sdt_extrinsic_motivation-2 › Sonny Brown")While we might have a goal of developing intrinsic motivation, extrinsic motivation will still be ever-present in martial arts training through gradings, belts and competitions. ## External Regulation - External and introjected regulation are the two least independent forms of extrinsic motivation. - External regulation would be where a student trains based entirely on a possible reward or avoiding punishment. - Grades and belts are standard external rewards that are often used for motivation while also indicating skill level. ## Introjected Regulation - Introjected regulation would be the classic training to buff the ego where they feel the need to show their ability to prove their self-worth. - It can come from the respect and admiration a student receives because of their martial arts training. ## Identified Regulation - Identification is when a student trains because they can see the benefits it would have to an internally motivated activity. - Identified motivation could be when a student is motivated to do strength, flexibility or mobility training to help their martial arts training. ## Integrated Regulation - Integrated regulation is when they do not have complete internal motivation, but the student still trains because they have connected it to part of their identity. - Integrated can be when a student attends a competition class because they see their identity as a competitor, which is what competitors do. ## Extrinsic or Intrinsic Motivation? Extrinsic motivations are unavoidable in martial arts and are not automatically bad or something you should avoid. They can be a great tool to help achieve short-term goals or cause an initial interest that may not have occurred otherwise. But a danger exists when they are overused or if someone is only externally motivated. If the external factors change then without that source of external motivation, they will be far more likely to drop out of training altogether. In contrast, internal motivation can continue to drive someone to be a martial artist and keep training. A host of other benefits come with being internally motivated, for instance, an increased likelihood of reaching the flow state, improved psychological well-being and a greater chance of attaining whatever goals are set. ## Self-Determination Theory For Life-Long Martial Artists ![Self-Determination Theory For Life-Long Martial Artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sdt_scale-1024x341.png "sdt_scale › Sonny Brown")Self-determination theory was written about initially in the 1980s by Edward Deci and Richard Ryan and has since been studied comprehensively in educational and classroom settings but can equally be applied to martial arts. Ideally, you should have a [goal to become a lifelong martial](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) artist or to teach them. In that case, it can be an excellent framework for you to apply in your martial arts training or coaching to be aware of the factors to develop and maintain motivation. To learn more about SDT you can visit the [Centre for Self-Determination Theory](https://selfdeterminationtheory.org/theory/ "Centre for Self-Determination Theory"). ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning, Martial Arts --- ### [Daniele Bolelli on The Taoist Teachings Of Bruce Lee](https://www.sonnybrown.net/daniele-bolelli-taoist-bruce-lee/) **Published:** November 8, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Daniele Bolelli - Taoist Teachings Of Bruce Lee](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Danielle_Bolleli_Bruce_lee-1024x576.jpg "Danielle_Bolleli_Bruce_lee › Sonny Brown")I talk to Daniele Bolelli, author, martial artist & university professor. He is the host of multiple podcasts, including the Drunken Daoist podcast, the History on Fire podcast, and a frequent guest on the Joe Rogan Experience. I talked to [Daniele Bolelli previously about teaching martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/daniele-bolelli-mythology-meaning-martial-arts/ "Daniele Bolelli on The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts"), and since he was a contributor to the "I Am Bruce Lee" documentary we discuss the teachings of [Bruce Lee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee "Bruce Lee") for martial artists and specifically how Bruce Lee used his martial arts as a vehicle for his Taoist philosophy. ## Listen To Daniele Bolelli ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### Bruce Lee as a method rather than a style Daniele argues that Bruce Lee’s most important contribution was not a fixed fighting system, but a method for testing ideas. Research your own experience, keep what works, discard what does not and continue adapting. ### Taoism, flexibility and non-attachment The conversation connects Lee’s thinking to Taoist ideas about flexibility, responsiveness and avoiding attachment to one method. The same principle can apply to martial arts, philosophy and everyday decision-making. ### Tradition, evidence and identity They examine why people often defend systems even when evidence challenges them. Once a method becomes part of someone’s identity, changing technique can feel like changing who they are. ### The limits of copying Bruce Lee Daniele distinguishes following Bruce Lee’s process from imitating his movements. Copying the outward form can miss the deeper lesson, which was to question, test and evolve. ## Key Takeaways - Bruce Lee’s lasting value lies more in his process of inquiry than in any fixed style. - Adaptability requires being willing to abandon ideas that no longer survive testing. - Taoist non-attachment fits naturally with evidence-based martial arts practice. - Imitating Bruce Lee is different from applying the principles that made his thinking distinctive. ## Daniele Bolelli Podcast Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Good day, Daniele. How are you today, mate? **Daniele Bolelli:** Good. Thanks so much for having a second chat with you here on the podcast. It should be fun. **Sonny:** No problem at all. It's my honor. The reason for this chat, I noticed you'd put out a two-part series on your podcast discussing the life and times of Bruce Lee. You'd also been in the documentary, I think it was *I am Bruce Lee* discussing in there. Bruce Lee is the prototypical martial artist many people aspire to emulate in lots of ways so I thought what a good opportunity just to have a discussion about him and what he means in the modern world and his legacy that he's left for us. Probably a good way to start off is, how do you think Bruce Lee figures into your [life and understanding of the martial](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) arts? **Daniele:** When you look at Bruce Lee's philosophy there are many, many aspects about Bruce Lee's life and legacies that are interesting. When you look at his philosophy, that's where to me is as important as it gets. He has a fantastic example of how to apply those ideas to martial arts, but you can also see how those ideas you can apply them to everything else. That example is now being followed that much despite the fact that it seems to work so well in something that he touches on some topics that get under the skin of people, because ultimately he's asking-- If we just want to get the ball rolling and talk about what are some of those ideas, his a four-step methodology. The whole idea of research your own experience, but basically, is the whole idea of absorbing what is useful, rejecting what is useless and that being what's specifically your own. It seems so simple. That's basic science. You look at the evidence, you take what works, you leave the stuff that doesn't work and you tweak it a little. Yet, one of the things why was it so revolutionary, well, when it comes to martial arts, but many other fields in life fit the bill as well, is that people develop an attachment to a certain methodology. People are not dressed, though I practice martial arts, people are like, especially back then, they were hardcore about, "I'm a karate guy," or, "I'm a judo guy," or, "I'm a kung fu guy." That became their identity. Which, when you think about it, it's stupid. It's like "Why?" Take whatever works. Judo has great throws, use them. There's some nice hands in boxing, use those as well. Instead, people became dogmatic about stuff, because ultimately it gave them a sense of belonging. It gave them a sense of membership in a community, gave them a sense of order, of clarity, of, "Our ways, the best way," kind of thing. Obviously, disproven by facts, because eventually when UFC put it to the test, and became, "Let's take people from all these different style and see which one is the best." It's not even that jiujitsu was the right answer. It became jiujitsu was an initial right answer but at the end of the day, it became a process. It became MMA, it became you take the best from a bunch of different styles and you mix them together in the way that works best and then each practitioner adopts it a little bit to their physic, to their personality, to their ideas and that's what delivers the greatest results. Why don't we do that with religions? Why don't we do that with philosophies? Why don't we do that with politics? Because you see the same thing in all those fields. People are, "I am--" Fill in the blank, whatever label they apply to themself. "I belong, I'm leftist, whatever." "I'm a conservative, whatever." "I belong to this religion." It's like, look, every system works some of the time and no system works all of the time. Why would you choose to limit yourself and not use all the tools in your belt when at the end of the day it's about getting the job done? It's about what is that delivers the greatest results. I think I know why, because unlike with martial arts where the physical practice forces you to acknowledge the results, you can only say so many times that your style is the best one if you get knocked and if somebody drives a knee through your skull 15 times and after 15 fights you're like, "Maybe your approach is not the best one. I think it has been empirically proven enough times." With ideas, people can always talk, people can spin the worst outcome into, "No, really. That was not so bad because the real thing hasn't been tried or whatever." That's the problem that they never have to face the music of dealing with the outcome and they are too emotionally invested into that one ideology, that one dogma, that one thing that makes up their identity. **Sonny:** The stakes of martial arts dogma and then in terms of other types of dogma is probably a lot lower, especially with the training of different styles. This is a life and death context of training which, I guess, does raise the stakes there. If you're talking about personal safety, but for the most part, I guess, that's not what was really being pushed forward by Bruce when he was pushing it forward. He gave a speech, or was in his book, when after the old guard of traditional martial arts, it was really just for not being effective and not testing that stuff, right? **Daniele:** Yes. There was even an article, a fantastic article by the way, that he wrote for a black belt magazine called *Liberate Yourself From Classical Karate*. In just a few pages, he really sums up some of the key elements of his philosophy and is spot on. I think, again, the difference there is-- yes, you're right. People are not as invested in a martial art as they are in a religion or their philosophy of life or whatever, but they are still pretty invested. The only way that people have abandoned it is by being forced to stare at the results in a way that the beauty of martial art is that the outcome is rarely too ambiguous. You can go in, you can test it. If you lost maybe you can make an excuse once and then you try again and you get your ass kicked again. Then you do again and after a while is like, "It clearly doesn't work." Whatever it is that you're doing is not working. People are like, "I guess, I'm tired of getting my face rearranged. I should be open to other ideas that seem to work for other people." Martial art forces you to do that because the results are so objective. Most other fields of life, not that clear-cut. I think that's one of the huge appeals of sport in general and competition is that you get outcomes that there is always the time when you say, "Oh, this guy really won the fight and he got screwed over by the judges." There's always some ambiguity but so much less than in pretty much any other field. Sport has this beautiful simplicity. That you get the results and in many cases, you can't really argue with them. **Sonny:** Yes, that's a good way of putting it. There's still some ambiguity, but just a lot less than other sports because even Conor McGregor, his submission losses don't really count, the decision losses. I don't really like count guys. It's the knockouts that are the only ones that count which, of course, I think to onlookers, it's still on the scoreboard. **Daniele:** Yes. nobody takes that seriously. **Sonny:** Exactly. He had some not like notable fights because there's always been some discussion about his fighting ability itself. There was one that happened. **Daniele:** Sure. **Sonny:** It was behind closed doors that did actually get spun from-- Was there a bit of spin on both sides or is it just only the people who were there that really knew? **Daniele:** It wasn't on video. You will have the people who were there. Of course, when you have two sides and they are the only ones there, they are going to tweak it in the way that's most favorable to them. It's pretty clear he didn't lose it. He probably won it in a way that was less than satisfying. It was probably sounded like a crappy fight where neither one did particularly well. Bruce Lee really ended up feeling very disappointed, feeling like, "Man, I should have been able to take care of this so much easier, so much faster." It really forced him to re-tweak his approach to martial arts. That's when he started going further into abandoning Wing Chun and developing his idea of JKD and embrace even more than he was already doing which he was already doing some but even more so embracing cross-training, including working on his stamina, working cardio, doing all these other things that were important to him. I think it was an important fight in his life that really helped him shape his perception of things. As far as his skill, the general opinion by pretty much anybody will come in to train with him, including really high-level guys is that he was very skilled, but at the same time, who cares? \[laughter\] He could have been awful. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because he's like, what's the legacy? The legacy is that he came up with brilliant ideas that have revolutionized most people's approach to martial arts that in some way planted even the seeds for things like UFC that really had a big impact. From where I'm standing, the evidence seem to say that he was a very skilled martial artist. This is not to say. Today, when everybody's training the same in MMA, the greatest guy in the world is not the greatest guy in the world two years later. and suddenly ... Any of this obsession about the greatest whatever is bullshit, anyway. It doesn't matter. It's like, he was a guy who knew his stuff. He was good for the time, he was probably really good. For today, probably, he would have lacked a lot of things that are important, particularly in the grappling department. He was a good guy. He was a skilled guy. I was skilled, who cares? That's beside the point. To me, the main focus should be on the ideas. **Sonny:** Yes, especially the best person in the world changes week to week, really. No one can hold the titles for that long, exception GSP, I guess. He's got to be there. **Daniele:** Bowing at G.S.P's Name! **Sonny:** With those ideas, he did a lot of writing that I've familiarized myself with portions of it over the last couple of years because there just seems to be more and more-- As I dig, all these letters, I just even discovered this or a whole series of books of letters that he'd written. Does that go then deeper into other areas of his application of that into the rest of his life or is he mainly just focusing on breaking those traditions of martial arts? Was he able to see that fulfilled in his life, do you think? **Daniele:** I think there are two separate tracks there. The one level where yes, he did, is, in some way, his identity that was a global one. It wasn't a Chinese one. It wasn't an American one. He invented his identity as he went. He was not even full-blooded Chinese and he got a lot of shit for it back in Hong Kong. At the same time, he dealt with a lot of racism in US, they reinforced the Chinese side. He embraced this idea of, "I'm an individual who's willing, able, and happy to pick a move between cultures. I don't feel that I have to be stuck to one culture alone or I have to obey the dictates or I have to discriminate against any culture." He had this very open-minded, non-racist, and very fluid approach to ethnic identity which I think is great. That's another one of those dogmas where people get really stuck on whether it's ethnic pride or national pride or something where, "The way we do things is the right way." He seemed always-- Take from any source across the globe you can find that helps you. Now, of course, that methodology could turn out terrible in the hands of somebody who's bad at it. You grab somebody who's going to mix and match ingredients without a full understanding of all the things and you can come up with horrendous crap. Somebody else come up with strokes of genius. The methodology is good, the idea is good, the result, of course, is not guaranteed because it depends on the talent of the person actually employing that approach. I think in that regard, that approach translated to his life. In other ways, I think he died way too young to be able to tell. His life was such a crazy meteoric rise from showing up in US with very little money in his pocket to suddenly becoming the most famous martial artist and one of the biggest actors in the world in the space of just a few years. I think he just did not even have the time to process it. Especially when you look at his success, there really had been on a two-year period, just the last two years of his life. That's it. From a financial standpoint, the money hadn't even fully come in for him. He wasn't even seeing the result of the work that he was doing that was extraordinary. He wasn't quite there yet. Money usually arrives fairly quickly if you had tremendous success. That tells you how weak the whole process was. One of the things that I noticed when doing this series that I never picked up on earlier when looking at the Bruce Lee story, something that I never realized was his relationship with success and how he struggled with it. This is not news. Most people who achieve incredible success will have struggles with it which, of course, infuriates anybody who's not as successful at them. It's like, "What do you mean?" Real hard to be adored by millions of fans and making a bunch of money and being-- The fact is, in his case, there are several passages in his writings where he said the fact that his quality of life had gone dramatically down since his success. He didn't know who to trust anymore because everybody wanted something from him. He did not know if that success was going to last. He felt pressure to say yes to everything, any project, anything he had to strike the iron while it was hot. He felt his need of grinding, grinding, grinding, working super hard, never taking a break which in some ways probably is the stuff that set up for his downfall. While there are all sorts of theories his death, the allergy to medication, this and the other, there's no argument that he was way overworked. He had lost a whole lot of weight on a guy who was already at barely any body fat, to begin with. Was just working himself ragged because he was just working crazy hours. In Hong Kong, he was working like a dog, morning to night, he never minded the emotional pressure that he was feeling. I think that definitely did not help him. He didn't have the time to metabolize the success and come to terms with it and set boundaries so that he could still have a good life and take breaks and feed self, recuperate energy, feed his spirit, and go back to doing what he was doing. It was all happening too quickly. He was just caught into the rush of it all. **Sonny:** Perhaps, when we're talking about the benefit of martial arts is being able to get that instant feedback and your instant results. That level of success and not being able to trust people and having the world perhaps somewhat distorted to the truth of the feedback that you're getting then would be playing a difficult role for him to interpret it? **Daniele:** For sure. It's even worse when people are younger than him. He was young, but not as young. When you look at how many child stars have come out really well adjusted, it's like you need to be really mature and have lots of help around you and have time to come to terms with it because their level of success comes with a tremendous level of pressure. Whereas when you have a little niche following, people love you, when you go big, you're going to have a bunch of people who hate your guts. Suddenly, you're going to find crazy things said about you that may not be true at all being spread left and right. You have to deal with all this accusation. You have to deal with people suing you because they want money. There's a lot of stress that go with that stuff that if you don't have somebody who know how to handle all that stuff, who can shield you from some of it, if it's happening all at once and you never even envision that that could happen or at least couldn't happen that quick, it's too much. Mess you up. I've seen even people, people I know who have achieved ridiculous success and there's something about them even when they handle it well, where on a personal level, there's a part of them that's always guarded. There's a part of them where there's the field in front because they have to shake hands with so many people every day and every single day, everybody, including their friends really deep down want something from them because they know that if they do something, they can open doors that could change their life. Everyone is like, "Oh, you know, I like him, he's my friend, but I also want this thing from him." In every interaction, you have to deal with that stuff. That's heavy because you don't know who to trust anymore. You don't know who you can just be you and should the shit and relax with and instead, you have to constantly deal with people's expectations and everybody thinking that meeting you is going to change their lives and it's just like, "Ah, man, that's a lot." **Sonny:** Yes, that's a difficult one to process, I guess, especially if he spent so long moving to America and to make it to that point and has that strong philosophical backing and purpose to live to then have that distortion and the fame perhaps clashes really then I guess, with what he was trying to do, but a necessary part to spread at the message. **Daniele:** Yes, for sure. It's important to learn how to deal with success because there are opportunities that come with it. There's a reason why you got there in the first place is you wanted it and you wanted it for good reasons, but we often, when you don't have it, you tend to see the good stuff and you forget all the baggage that comes with it. I think it's something I mention in the podcast when I did about him. I had a micro version because, of course, you don't compare my experience to Bruce Lee's experience. We're talking about such levels of magnitude of difference that it's not even funny, but in my experience, I noticed when I achieve the most success I ever read, I would wake up in the morning, work like a dog, never have time to do anything for me and suddenly you look at yourself and you look like the stereotype of every asshole father in every other movie was too busy to play with his kids and too busy to pay attention to the people you love and too busy to eat well, and you're like, "Wait, is this success? This sucks. This is not success, this is me being an idiot. This is me ruining--" I'm like a hamster on a wheel and just running around and doing these things saying, "Can't you see how successful I am?" And he's like, "No, that's not success." \[chuckles\] It's contradictory because the thing that made successful was that ability to grind, that hard work, that crazy work ethic, that ability to push, but then when you have it, you also need to learn how to let the foot off the accelerator a little and say, "Great that I did it," pat on the back, but remember, this is a marathon, this is not a sprint, you need to last through this. \[chuckles\] It's not just getting there, it's also staying through it for a long time and that's not an easy skill. It really is the opposite of what allow you to get there in the first place. **Sonny:** That's definitely a tricky one, I guess, just finding that balance of how you're going to make it work. I know Bruce was big on setting goals or at least he'd written out a lot of his major goals that he'd want to achieve during his lifetime. Is that something that's shown up more in his writings? Any affirmations or things like that? **Daniele:** Big time, he was huge on that stuff. He really believe in this idea of keeping a journal, writing it down, putting it into words, saving it there and he did the impossible. He set for himself crazy goals and he actually from most of them in a really short period of time, there was that other side to it. No wonder he did the right, but he didn't have the time to do it. How to integrate all this in an actually more harmonious life, in a happy sustainable life. He did achieve check the boxes of making X money, achieve this fame, or do this and that. The other part of being able to actually have a good life connected with his wasn't there yet. Maybe he would've. Maybe he lived longer, maybe he would've figured it out and would've been just a bump in the road of getting adjusted, and maybe he would've figured out a great way to deal with it. He didn't have the time to do it. **Sonny:** That's a heavy one to think about then if perhaps maybe the order can be reversed on that. If things had turned out differently of which one comes first or could just be a chicken in the egg type situation, right? **Daniele:** It's hard, it's really a balancing. Think about in very practical terms about martial arts, how do people get really good in martial arts? They work really hard, they push themselves to the limit. Sometimes they push a little past the limit, but if you do that forever and always you have the foot on the accelerator and push harder, work out harder, lift harder, put in three times a day kind of thing, you're going to burn out eventually. It's like, you are going to get great in a shorter time than other people, but it's not sustainable forever. You cannot train like that for your entire life. **Sonny:** Sometimes I think the portion of its philosophy of adding what's uniquely your own, sometimes maybe I'll add a couple of rest days that are uniquely my own in there. Maybe a few too many here and there. \[chuckles\] **Daniele:** I think that allows you to practice until you're 80, whereas the other approach-- I was chatting with somebody today and we were talking about wrestling and saying, isn't it tricky that wrestling is people do it as kids? People, if they're really good, they compete in college, but there are very, very few places where, as an adult, you can go and train wrestling as an adult. You train it as part of jiujitsu, you train it maybe as judo, you train it as straight-up wrestling. The stuff that makes wrestlers phenomenal is that they have this insane endurance disability to push through things that most everybody would've taught by then and somehow they come out the other end, okay, in semi one piece and it's this crazy willpower drive harder, harder, faster kind of thing, but then nobody does as an adult. People do it on the side, but they switch their practice to something a little more mellow because you cannot train like that for the rest of your year. You can do it when you're 18, you can do it maybe in your 20s, but after that, you're going to be broken all the time. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. One thing I wonder with that is the way that it is set up in America of being through school systems and being available to every school anywhere, I know it's not in every school over there then perhaps not having then the financial incentives for business owners to do that when four people who are graduating or something like that to keep it going, is there-- **Daniele:** For sure, but even the people who are great wrestlers, half of the time they end up either going into judo, going into Jiujutsu because they still want to grapple and they're going to be great at it because they have all these maths sense and balance and skills, but training the way they did when they were 18, when they are 45 and they have a job and they have to deal with them, the reality is that y'all going to be great one day. You're going to be great the second day and next week you're injured for the next six months and don't get me wrong. Of course, not everybody. Some people manage to still train high-level wrestling for the rest of their life, but it's such the energy behind wrestling. What makes it successful, tend to be so intense, so punishing on the body that it's not the easiest thing to be able to keep training that way for the rest of your life. Even lifting weights or anything really is like there's stuff that well, no pain gain approach works in the full term. Tend not to work very well as you age. **Sonny:** Yes, that's for sure. Pain is is a message from the body that something's going wrong so you got to respect that at some point. That brings up a point then of how we know about Bruce Lee and his training methods because you mentioned that he did get into obviously physical fitness, I've seen his stretching routine and he obviously was a physical specimen. What do we know about how he was putting his training together in a practical sense and what he was doing for recovery as well? **Daniele:** There's a lot of stuff out there were some of the books you mention, they have books of letters, they have books about, they're going to his daily routine. The problem is his daily routine change all the time because he was experimenting with things and learning new things. His daily routine in 1969 was different from 1971 and he was a guy who was enamored with experimentation. He was trying a million things from nutrition to actual lifting weights, everybody has an idea and they're probably right for a period of his life, but it's hard to generalize long-term because I don't think there was a long-term yet in that regard. I think he was stealing this process of figuring it out as he went. **Sonny:** Do you think then reflecting on my own question it's probably missing the point then to try and look at the actual specifics of what he was doing rather than the methodology he was applying as a whole? **Daniele:** The specifics are interesting and if you can catch a piece of information that like, huh, that's interesting, maybe it works in experiment, but I think that's as far as it goes. For the most part, I think the information that we have today about most athletes are great, we have access to tremendous amount of information. You may run into something that nobody's doing today that like, "Oh, that's actually interesting and shows promise," but probably not a whole lot because realistically a lot of these things have been developed by other people over time. **Sonny:** Part of that experimentation would've been applying the same philosophy of trying things, seeing what works, rejecting what doesn't. Obviously, his upbringing would've played that role, but what would've really been the driving force behind him developing that? What was the foundation of it? **Daniele:** When you read about his biography, he seems to have been born different by other people. His energy level was different from other people's. His siblings say that he would just-- Most kids move through the night. He just was a furnace. He was just constantly burning with energy. One of his nicknames, when he was a kid, was this kid that he couldn't sit still, that he was in constant motion. He was hyperactive to the 10th power. He has this vitality that was this very explosive, very go out there, do things, jump, try this, do this other thing, could not be contained kind of feeling. I think that's a lot at the root of his personality. There was no going slow with him. He was like 120 miles an hour all the time in everything he did. I think in some way, there's almost a genetic element there where he was born that way. Other people in his family weren't. It was both his personality, it was his physique, it was his energy. Who the hell knows what those things-- the soul?. I don't know, but it's something that was uniquely his that's just constantly driving him forward and constantly making him try things. This use of energy in a way that most people would run out quickly or be like, "Oh, man. Slow down a second." They're like, "No, I don't have that much energy to do 10,000 steps." He had it. Now, he had it, he also died at 32, so maybe he had to because he went through energy the way that maybe slowing down a little wouldn't have been a bad idea. That was definitely part of who he was. **Sonny:** He would've been facing then the limits of different people's dogmas and ideology in a much faster rate than of what everyone else was experiencing if he's learning kung fu. While that might then obviously take people a lot longer to press up against the limits, he was probably meeting those limits almost immediately, right? **Daniele:** Yes. That's where I think he's so big on Daoism. So much of his philosophy is based on Daoism. One thing that clearly wasn't quite there that is huge in Daoism is balance. He's using more energy, less in your face flex muscle, and run at top speed and more fluidity, almost tai-chi-like in terms of energy. I think that's something that for somebody who was so good at that other side of the game, that's probably something that investing more time and energy into things that for him may have given him stuff like meditation or stuff like do tai chi for a change, just do form, work on your breath, work on not doing anything, work on sitting on the beach for a month and just relaxing and seeing what that feels like. I don't know that he ever had the chance to do something like that, both because his life worked out a certain way, but also because his energy was-- What would it be like if you're not trying to do 10 million things every day and climbing a mountain and running 20 miles, and just sit there, just listen to the waves. What would happen at that point? I think there's something interesting in terms of-- Many people are lazy by nature and you need to start a fire under their ass to motivate them and get them going, but then there are also people who are the opposite, who are so self-motivated, so driven, so push, push, push that they need to learn to mellow out, where it's important for them. They're already good at that stuff, learn the other stuff. Learn how to take a deep breath and do nothing and just sit in your garden for a while. I think it's something that we all deal with. Just our personalities. Everybody is tilting more one way than another. Whatever you're good at, that's great, keep doing it, but learn the other stuff because it may give you that balance that ultimately helps you in life. **Sonny:** That's a very interesting point then, because it seems like in the martial arts world, everyone-- Like cross-training is now commonplace. There's MMAs taken from every style that works, that process is still ongoing, but it does seem then that the other part of finding that balance of everything, still, that's a constant problem for everyone no matter what side of that spectrum that you fall in, right? **Daniele:** Yes. Even I'm talking all this game like I know what I'm talking about. I suck at it like everybody else. There are 10 million things where I know exactly I should balance it out. Being able to do it is not the easiest thing. I think having the self-awareness of where you're lacking is big. You're not going to become amazing at what you're not built for naturally, but if you can tweak it even 10%, if you're a really driven person and you learn how to mellow out just a little bit, it's going to go a long way. Vice versa. If you're a nice, mellow, happy person, but you don't get stuff done very much, learning a little bit of assertiveness, a little bit of pushing, and being able to handle the grind is going to help you a bunch. Nobody asked you to become something you're not and to just completely flip your personality. It's not even physically possible. Just tweak it a little. **Sonny:** As you're saying it, I'm thinking, "I should probably get back to the meditation schedule a bit more now. I have to drink a bit more water today." It's obviously just a constant struggle or process either way you want to put it, really. Was then that form of Daoism, that part of the philosophy then guided that experience of martial arts, and then that is the underlying principles that really makes up the bulk of this philosophy, and the martial arts was just how he was putting it in action? **Daniele:** 100%. I think so much of his philosophy is just straight up Daoism, however, creatively applied to the context of the 1960s, so it has a sort of anti-authoritarian bands. Daoism already has, but he takes it three steps further. He's perfectly adapted to the context of the '60s and the martial art world and then moviemaking. He took something that in some way is like, "Well, he's not creating anything new. This stuff has been around 2,000-plus years." Yes, but he's able to adapt it in a very novel way to a unique context about when he was alive. I think that was his stroke of genius. He's just out to take this source material and make it relevant and applicable in 1960s United States. **Sonny:** What a way to promote it or make it spread that message then worldwide and for many decades so far. Then, Hollywood and movies and the massive martial arts world at the time. Probably no better vehicle, really. **Daniele:** In fact its brilliant that way. When people are like, "Well, he didn't really create anything new," it's like, "No, he didn't, but few people do." Most of the time, it's how you're able to adapt something that has been done before, and in the process of adapting, it kind of becomes new. **Sonny:** We talked about the difficulties of success and how that impacted him. It does seem somewhat counterintuitive to have a Daoist philosophy and be seeking that Hollywood movies, right? Is there room for that in there? **Daniele:** I think it's contradictory just the way his personality was, that if you want to conceive it in Daoist terms, his personality was purely yang. Drive, drive, drive harder, faster kind of thing. Daoism tends to emphasize the more subtle approach, the more flexible approach, the more yielding approach. His personality and Daoism, in some way, did not click at all, and Hollywood even less so, but he made it work in some way. He did bring some of these ideas to public consciousness in a way that nobody had done at the time because nobody had been in that position to make it happen. He was able to apply them to the martial arts. Despite some of his limitations, he just did a phenomenal job with those things, and in many ways, I think made some of those concepts household names much more than they would've been otherwise. **Sonny:** If we look then in terms of Daoism, is there part of what Bruce Lee was pushing forward that have perhaps been overlooked that could be more applicable in terms of the wider world and not just martial arts, or is there things that basically the generally public may be missing when they look at Bruce Lee that you think could be of value? **Daniele:** I really think that that approach to look at something else. Really, you can point to anything, but use an example that's easy because everybody's bombarded with that stuff all the time. Think about politics. In politics, people almost unfailingly, you can tell what somebody's going to feel over a whole list of issues based on any one issue. Like if I know how you feel about abortion, I know how you feel about global warming and how you feel about masks. I know how you feel about-- Why is that? Because you are not really thinking about each issue, you are embracing the party line of whichever side you follow and you are going to buy the whole playbook on this is what we believe about issue A, B, C, D, and E. What does that tell you? That as an individual, you're not really making an individual decision. You're just putting on some clothes and embracing that identity. Then you're embodying that identity. That's exactly what Bruce Lee would say is just damn stupid. It's like, "Why would you trade your individuality? Why don't you just look at what works?" If you think that what works can be found in any one ideology, well, then you're delusional because that's not how life works. It's like that you are never going to find-- This is not to say that all ideologies are on the same playing field. Some are clearly better than others. They have a better track record historically, but the reality is that you're going to find elements that are valuable in a bunch of different places. Rather than having this discussion between left-wing, right-wing, capitalist, socialist, or that thing, how about we figure out what's the right balance to solve this one issue. Not in the abstract, not in general because the thing is, tomorrow, with a different issue, we're going to have to tweak that balance. Let's say the capitalist, socialist balance, we went 80-20 on this issue and they worked, tomorrow may be 50-50 or maybe 80-20 the other way, or it may be-- What's the problem with that? It requires people to actually think on their feet, to not be yelling slogans, but instead to carefully weigh the evidence and tweak it and adapt it and magically do the work. That's hard. It's so much easier to just yell the slogan off your side and automatically 50% of the people are going to waive the flag behind you and say, "Yes, you're right. That's the way to go." Even though none of those things help solve any real problem or improve anybody's life. Again, it's an identity game rather than being something that leads to practical solutions. I'm interested in practical solutions. I don't give a crap where the solutions comes from. I don't care what ideology belongs to or what anything is like. Is this problem getting solved? Is the lives of people touched by this problem improved as a result of what we do? Yes, I like it. I'm sold. Call it whatever you want. I don't even feel the need to-- Whether it's politically, philosophically, religiously, however you want to conceive it, I don't care for the labels. I'm interested in the outcome. I feel that it's ... like who wouldn't? If we're talking about solving problems and improving people's lives, the obvious solution is, "Let's tweak the approach in a way that deliver those results." Pretty straightforward. You're not talking anything wilder and yet hardly anybody does it. There's a line in the data sheet that's actually pretty funny where it goes like, "My way is very easy to understand and very easy to practice, but nobody understand it and nobody practice it." \[laughs\] I'm like, "It's unfortunately applicable there because it's so obvious and yet nobody does it. Maybe it's not so obvious." I think that's what Lee did with martial arts. When he did go out and say, "Screw your styles." Styles are prisons. They are good if they are flexible. They are good if you can stick to a style, but also learn from other things, but not if you devote your individuality to one style. Screw the styles, just become the best martial artist you can be across from styles. He was able to push that just because the evidence has shown that crosstraining makes better fighters. That's just how it is. With ideas, again, because nobody will admit defeat. Commune was actually a great idea is just the real communism hasn't been tried. How many times do we have to go through the same thing before we say that maybe there are some problems with the ideas? That's the problem with ideas. Nobody ever admits defeat for their side. Rather than saying, "You know what? That didn't work. There's still a good idea on what I'm thinking, but maybe I need to lose 70% of it and just focus on that one nugget." He's like, "No, we were right. Forget the evidence. The evidence is lying. Reality is an illusion. It's all in my head because I want to believe it." That would make the world a much better place rather quickly if people stopped wearing ideological hats and wanting to stick to them at all cost and instead focus on the staff that actually works. **Sonny:** That really makes me think then, because one of the issues of speaking with someone who already has their mind made up and there's no changing it no matter what, then it's very difficult to persuade them with the idea of, "Hey, perhaps--" Just that notion of, "Hey, yes, maybe you're right in some things, but perhaps not in others." What could be seen as a reasonable idea doesn't come across as very persuasive because it's sitting on the fence or not having that strong way to convince them. Isn't then part of that Bruce Lee's legacy is how he was able to forcefully present that ideology to the world? **Daniele:** 100%. I think that the unfortunate aspect that he was able to do it in one field. Well, it's already huge. It's more than most people will ever do in their life. He was able to apply to one field in a very clear, convincing way. It would be nice if it could be extended to a bunch of other fields of experience in life. Clearly easier said than done. **Sonny:** Yes. Very much easier said than done. It is really part of the human condition that it's dealing with and who knows where things will be going because it seems to be ramping up more and more as the years go on. **Daniele:** I get it. I think I know where it comes from, his life is scary. The universe is a scary place. You can play all your cards well and horrible things happen anyway. We don't know crap about where we come from, where we're going. We are just being alive as human beings, involves so much existential anxiety and worry and concern and fear because you don't control the outcome of major things happening around you all the time. Of course, people are going to, when they find something that they think works, they're going to cling to it to death, even when it stops working in real life because it's their anchor. In their mind, it's the thing that keeps them safe in an unsafe world. Of course, they're going to like it. Of course, there's stuff that people don't want to give up because it's the one thing that allowed them to make sense of the world and feel safe in it. **Sonny:** Yes. I hear that because that ambiguity in the world is very scary at times, especially with the ability to, in an instant, see what's all the bad things that are going on all around the world just delivered to you as soon as you wake up in the morning. It can be intimidating. It's sometimes best to try and block some of that stuff out, but that has made me think then of your book, which was the basis of choosing your own religion, taking the parts from what you wanted to put together. I guess that is based then on the same way of thinking and mindset, yes? **Daniele:** To me, that's life. While I understand why people will cling to an ideology at all costs to the one thing that informs their identity, I think that if you manage not to be 100% ruled by fear, people sometimes feel that unless you take this very strong, hard stance going one way, you are wishy-washy, and you are not, the reality is that while you're a 100% right, that's the perception, the reality is the exact opposite. That's the coward way out to just take this stance because it makes you feel good, despite the fact it only works 20% of the time and you're going to automatically apply it 100% of the time because you're afraid to look. You're afraid to find out that your ideas yesterday don't work so well today, because you're afraid-- Real courage to me is found in to putting all your beliefs to the test every single day and being ready to change them at the drop of a dime. That to me takes serious strength. That ability to be flexible, paradoxically, is what real strength is. **Sonny:** Yes. That's a hard one to get the head around sometimes because it's certainly not the perception as such. One thing Bruce Lee was able to do it with his art, I think, if you look at it as martial arts, as an art form, it gives a pathway of being able to do that because art is supposed to make people think, entice them, perhaps cause confusion or just-- It's supposed to elicit a range of emotions that can then perhaps change the logical side of how people are thinking. I think he really used martial arts as an art form for a catalyst for change really. **Daniele:** 100%. That's why he embodied those ideas and those principles applying them to the [martial arts, but the martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) are just one vehicle. You could do it with anything else. That's the Zen idea, which in some ways, Zen Buddhism always are extremely similar. There are plenty of similarities there. The Zen idea there is that all forms of art are vehicles to embody certain ideas, certain teachings that then can be applied to that one particular field. It goes back to the Miyamoto Musashi idea. You learn how to master the sword and you learn how to master everything else. On the surface, it looks like a weird statement. It's like, no, you just learn how to master the sword. There's nothing to do with everything else. It's like, yes, maybe if you only learn the technique, yes, you only learn how to master the sword, but if you learn the principles behind it. guess what? The principle that can make you a great swordman are the same one that can make you great at anything else in life because that's just the language of life as a whole. The specific field may be different, but the principles behind it are not. I think that's kind of where it's at with this concept that all art forms are nothing but particular forms to embody more universal principles. **Sonny:** That does then make me think of how in the modern world where martial arts sees itself placed in terms of we look very strongly to the prizefighting aspect and that kind of promotional side, which has driven martial arts so far yet when we think of Bruce Lee, when we talk about it a lot, it's really the traditional martial arts still harken back and in some ways, I guess, even though he was against traditional martial arts at the time, it's come around full circle, perhaps? **Daniele:** Precisely because the shape it takes doesn't really matter in some way. I think you can do the same thing with MMA. You can do the same thing with combat sports. Sometime the facade or spirituality and teaching that you got. In some, traditional martial arts is real. In some, traditional martial arts is purely a facade. It's like some guy who never really trained a harder in his life, spouting philosophical Maxis, pretending that he's teaching about life, where he's not really teaching about life or an effective martial arts either. Whereas some guy you go to a boxing gym and some dude who may have never read a book in his life, but is really smart, really sensitive and he's able to use his boxing stuff to teach people something that's more than just boxing. Actually, there's a way of life behind it and there's principles behind it. To me, the art itself doesn't matter, is the spirit of the person teaching, the intention behind it, the energy that they bring to the table can change everything. You can do that with MMA. You can do that with boxing. You can do that with any combat sport. **Sonny:** I guess that way of thinking can be done through anything just with the intention, the energy, and the mindset that you bring behind it. It doesn't even need to be spelled out logically. It is an emotional way of operating in the world that then influences others? **Daniele:** Yes, you can teach the stuff that people talk about traditional martial arts. Respect and discipline, and you can teach that through the wildest combat sport. You can still do that if that's how you decide to approach it and that's how you decide to teach it, but of course, usually does not tend to attract that kind of crowd, so that's why it becomes the stereotype of why it's not that way typically, but it doesn't have to be. You hear all the time, this thing, martial arts, make you better people. No, of course, they don't. However, some particular teacher in that particular school can teach things in a way that apply to more than [martial arts and can be more about life](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/). Then you're going to have 10 more people who try to do the same thing and fail miserably and it's like, \[laughs\] "You should have just taught me martial arts because it would've been better off." The goal is there, the intention is good, some people will pull it off, some people won't. That's how it works. **Sonny:** I guess that way of thinking it's not just martial arts, someone teaching martial arts that could do that or practicing, it is someone who you're working with as a bricklayer or a laborer or any profession could have that same way? **Daniele:** 100%. It's really the individual behind it and what they belief. There are some people that you hang around with them and you listen to them read the phone book because they just have that energy that everything they touch, they bring something good that's valuable about life. **Sonny:** Yes, although I think that in professional jobs with KPI reports or some administration managerial positions may not be able to. \[laughs\] **Daniele:** Some fields is 100% easier than others. While theoretically, you can apply it in everything, it's a lot easier in some contexts than others for sure. **Sonny:** Actually, I just thought, have you seen the movie *Office Space*? **Daniele:** No, I haven't. **Sonny:** I won't go into it then, but it really does seem fitting in that regard where there is a guy working in the office who perhaps is dealing with that. Then I guess to finish up for people wanting to look into then the works of Bruce Lee and what would be the best way to take his teachings. Obviously, you've got the great two-part series out, but should they go into Bruce Lee or just jump into Daoism, what's your thoughts on that? **Sonny:** I think the great start is, you can probably google it and I'm sure it's going to pop up on some site. Just even read one article. I don't even know, it's like 4, 5, 6 pages, something really short. Just liberate yourself from classical karate. There was really a perfect summary of his approach to the whole thing that he wrote for *Black Belt* Magazine. You don't even have to read a full book. You read a few pages and you really capture a lot of his ideas and then you see if it resonates with you. It's like, "Okay, I want to hear more about it." Then you look at Bruce Lee's other writings. Then maybe you start looking at these things that Bruce Lee was reading that was informing him. A huge thing was listening to Alan Watts. Alan Watts was huge for Bruce Lee. He read his books and clearly, they influenced tremendously the way he presents his ideas. There were some ideas he borrow from Krishnamurti who was very about refusing to follow a guru, refusing to follow a single methodology and is very anti-authoritarian band or you look at different Daoist writings what's out there that catches your eye. I think that's probably a safe way to start. **Sonny:** I love it. Alan Watts, I've listened to fair few of his lectures on YouTube and it's good stuff I'll say that. It's stuff that make you think. If people are listening to that, the applications in the world say someone wants to start tomorrow, take parts of those philosophies. What's like one simple thing that perhaps someone could do? **Daniele:** A real simple one, take all your beliefs and throw them in the trash. **Sonny:** I love it. **Daniele:** Real simple. **Sonny:** See what happens, I guess? **Daniele:** Yes. That approach life without all these preconceived ideas. **Sonny:** That's beautiful. That's a good spot to finish up, Daniele. I really appreciate you giving me your time today. I'm very thankful and grateful for the opportunity to talk to you. If people want to get in touch, what's the best way to do it. I know you've got the books and the podcast. **Daniele:** Yes, I think that's probably the easy stuff. I have a couple of podcasts out, *History On Fire*, even to some *History On Fire* episodes are behind the paywall. The majority can still be found all over the place for free, do a more chatty podcast , The Drunken Daoist s ome times and that one is like. I range all over the place in terms of topics, I have a few books out, so whatever strikes your fancy. **Sonny:** Awesome. Well, I really appreciate it and you have a great day. **Daniele:** Cool. Thank you so much. **Sonny:** Thank you. ## Resources ### Links - [I Am Bruce Lee Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmHHaYiqCx0 "I Am Bruce Lee Trailer") - [Daniele Bolelli Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/daniele_bolelli/ "Daniele Bolelli Instagram") - [Daniele Bolelli Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/danielebolelli1 "Daniele Bolelli Facebook") - [Daniele Bolelli Website](http://www.danielebolelli.com/ "Daniele Bolelli Website") - [Daniele Bolelli Twitter](https://twitter.com/dbolelli "Daniele Bolelli Twitter") - [History On Fire Episode: Bruce Lee (Part 1)](http://historyonfirepodcast.com/episodes/2022/1/17/episode-77-bruce-lee-part-1) - [History On Fire Episode: Bruce Lee (Part 2)](http://historyonfirepodcast.com/episodes/2022/1/17/episode-78-bruce-lee-part-2 "History On Fire Episode: Bruce Lee (Part 2)") - [Daniele Bolelli on The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/daniele-bolelli-mythology-meaning-martial-arts/ "Daniele Bolelli on The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Brandon Mccaghren On Restrictions & Freedom In 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brandon-mccaghren-interview-10th-planet/) **Published:** May 20, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Brandon Mccaghren](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Brandon_Mccaghren-1024x576.jpg "Brandon Mccaghren › Sonny Brown")I talk to Brandon McCaghren, or B-MAC, from 10th Planet Decatur, Alabama. We discuss his journey from his hometown to train with Eddie Bravo in LA, and the value of [constraints](https://www.sonnybrown.net/efficiency-learning-techniques-making-decisions-mental-models-bjj-steve-kwan/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") vs operating in the wild. How the innovative [10th Planet](https://www.10thplanetjj.com/ "https://www.10thplanetjj.com/") "Hot Box" system and the warm-up routines and patterns have helped it grow and establish itself. Additionally, the discussion covers building a positive club culture, the martial value of tai chi, and how to stay inspired as a white belt, as well as the importance of self-discovery. #### Listen to the Brandon McCaghren Interview Here: ## YouTube ### Listen To the Episode - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/navigating-restrictions-wilderness-on-the-10th-planet/id1476963733?i=1000475178610) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5z7Ak1R0hjoXPnTjDRBtJ5?si=042a1bcee6c54921) ## Key Topics ### Constraints-led training Brandon explains that deliberate limitations, such as boxing gloves or gi grips, force practitioners to specialise and innovate. Constraints add “artificial resistance”, speeding skill development and making chaotic exchanges repeatable. He urges coaches to design drills that remove options so students must find creative solutions. ### From Alabama garage to 10th Planet Decatur Starting with second-hand mats in a karate back room, Brandon drove long distances to Eddie Bravo seminars, hosted free open mats at home and gradually built a following. Over a decade the project grew into a full-time academy with about two hundred members and a culture of experimentation. ### The Hot Box system Eddie Bravo once encouraged motivated grapplers to form unofficial “Hot Boxes” - study groups that followed 10th Planet material with remote guidance. Brandon describes how these groups shared techniques online, held weekly peer-review sessions and produced several successful coaches before the model became too large to manage informally. ### Principles over techniques Brandon stresses that 10th Planet is defined by an open mind, not by one move. Rubber guard, spider guard or standard closed guard all work if they follow sound positional principles such as inside-control and angle. Teaching principles helps students adapt faster than memorising isolated moves. ### Self-discovery and lifelong learning When students solve problems themselves, the answer “sticks to their DNA”. Brandon promotes guided exploration, setting goals and constraints, but resisting step-by-step solutions too early. This fosters ownership, creativity and resilience. ### Building club culture An open-minded culture starts with the coach. Brandon models curiosity, asks for feedback and rewards experimentation, creating an environment where beginners feel safe to try new ideas. Regular study groups, post-class Q&As and social events strengthen bonds and maintain motivation. ## Key Takeaways - Constraints can accelerate learning by forcing athletes to solve a narrower problem deeply. - Brandon treats 10th Planet as an experimental framework rather than a fixed collection of techniques. - Students retain solutions more effectively when they discover them through guided problem-solving. - Restrictions and freedom are not opposites in training. Well-designed limits can create more useful creativity. ## Resources #### quotes - “The lockdown is not the 10th Planet gospel – an open mind is.” - “When you solve the problem yourself, it sticks to your DNA.” - “Specialists appear when we limit the rules deeply, and they end up changing the general fighting style.” - “Unlimited growth sounds appealing, but without constraints it becomes wild and uncontrollable.” - “Build your guard on solid principles, and it will not matter what techniques you use.” #### Links - [Brandon McCaghren Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/brandonmc.ninja/) - [**BrandonMC.Ninja** (courses and blog)](https://www.brandonmc.ninja/) - [BJJ Fanatics – Brandon McCaghren instructional](https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/brandon-mccaghren) - **[10th Planet Decatur](https://10thplanetjj.com/locations/decatur)** - ## Brandon Mccaghren Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Welcome to episode number 10 of the Sonny Brown Breakdown. A podcast where I discuss the training, teaching, health and education of mixed martial arts to help you find the difference that makes the difference. I'm your host Sonny Brown. In this episode, I talk to Brandon McCaghren or BMAC, from 10th Planet Decatur in Alabama. We discuss his start travelling from his home to training with Eddie Bravo in LA, the value of constraints versus being in the wild, 10th Planet warm-ups, building positive club culture, and the importance of self-discovery. Now, let's go to the podcast. Okay. Here today with Brandon McCaghren, BMAC. Here we go. **Brandon:** Hey. That was pretty good. **Sonny:** Did I get close on the last name?. How are you today, mate? **Brandon:** I'm good, man. **Sonny:** Good. I got in touch with you, I've seen all your stuff online. You're very active with your website, Instagram. You got a great YouTube page as well. When I started looking into you and finding out how you got your black belt from Eddie Bravo. It was interesting to find that when you were learning in Alabama, that you were having to travel to LA in those early days. There was no one there locally for you to learn off. Yes. I was just wondering if you could give us an idea of what those early days were like? What drew you to 10th Planet as well? **Brandon:** I just started martial arts, because I needed a way to get in shape, and I was not interested in running or lifting weights. I already established in my life I wasn't going to do those things. \[laughs\] I got into [martial arts really as just- for health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erin-herle-submit-stigma-mental-health/) reasons. I didn't really have any aspirations of beating anybody up or anything like that. I didn't think I had that inside. Yes, I just got introduced to martial arts, and then I slow-- Not slowly. I quickly learned that Jiu-Jitsu was the martial art that interested me the most. But if there wasn't any Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu within a driving distance -- Not in a way that I could ever make it to class and train and run. I got to get there once a week or something like that. I was just trying to learn out of books wherever I could. I was learning there from the guy I was training with at the time. His name was Jamie Webster. He's a Japanese Jiu-Jitsu guy. Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan , lot of MMA classes, and stuff like that. I was learning from him at the time and he was always teaching us Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stuff. I just fell in love with that. Then I got hooked up with Eddie, because one of the guys I was training with-- I was still a white belt. He goes, "Hey, man. I'm going to a Eddie Bravo seminar. Do you want to go?" I was like, "Yes. Who's Eddie Bravo?" That's how I met Eddie initially, and I loved what he was about. He was just super passionate. You know what I'm saying? **Sonny:** Yes. **Brandon:** I had been to a couple of seminars already by that time. Man, he was just so into what he was doing. At the time, he was booked to do like three hours. He ended up doing like six with us. Then he made himself available after the fact to answer some questions. I just like the spirit, the passion honestly, that he approached it with. That made a huge difference to me. I played guitar too. I didn't like the idea of ripping my hands up. **Sonny:** Playing with the Gi. You decided just go straight no Gi off the bat? **Brandon:** Yes. We were training in the Gi at the time, but again, it wasn't at a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school. I didn't get the same education on gripping and breaking grips or using the Gi for or against me. I didn't get the same kind of education, but I did play with the Gi. You know what I'm saying? I watch them, but I didn't get that deep Gi education that I probably would've needed to fall in love with it early, but I was learning and . I just thought that fighting and the Gi, at that time in my mind, I couldn't understand any correlation. I could see correlation now, but at that time, that was- no way you could've convinced me of that. **Sonny:** What kind of things do you think now that the Gi has that value for fighting? What are those things? **Brandon:** It has value for fighting the same way boxing has value for fighting. But boxing is not a complete fighting style by any stretch of the imagination. Every time you clinch somebody, they call it cheating. That's not fighting. They break them up and they put the big pillows on their hands. If you want to learn the best way to use your hands to strike a man in a fight and the best way to defend yourself against hands in a fight, there is no other art, but bo-- Boxing is the premier art to do that. But the way that they became so elite was that it was separated and were restrictve. The rules became very restrictive. You're not allowed to kick him in the legs, you got to wear the big pillows. If you clinch him, that's cheating. We're only going to give you three minutes, 12 different times to work it out. Okay. That's a really limited rule set. Don't hit him in the back of the head either. All right. Got you. Because they limit the rule set so strictly, you have to learn how to use your hands the right way, but it's not a complete fighting system. With the Gi, even though it's not a complete fighting system anymore. It has things that maybe don't translate that well when the Gi comes off or maybe it don't translate that well when you're getting hit. But because you're not getting hit, because you do have handles and more friction work with, maybe you can learn some things in there that you wouldn't be able to learn if somebody was cracking you in the mouth the whole time. You'll take risk you wouldn't take if somebody could hit you. Just like in boxing, you'll use your hands and you'll open up in ways that you wouldn't if he was allowed to shoot a double leg on you. I think each of the different styles of fighting have their place. Even some of the more like artsy styles. There's things that you can only learn by limiting the rules deeply, and that allows us to spring up specialists. Those specialists in turn can change the general fighting style dramatically. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear that. It's something that's been coming up a lot recently. The power of those limitations that you can put on certain styles of training will actually allow them to develop more. It's like that little counter-intuitive thing. **Brandon:** Yes, it's interesting. It is counter-intuitive, but it makes sense, man. It makes sense. That's how you grow in your life. You give yourself a resistance that isn't-- An artificial resistance perhaps. Like, lifting weights is an artificial resistance, and that's what forces the muscle to grow and adapt, and become stronger. **Sonny:** Yes, that's a good point. It does seem to be just this constant thing that people want to just-- Yes, internal growth should just mean we let anything happen possible, but those power of those limitations and restrictions can't be overlooked. It's funny. **Brandon:** Unlimited growth could be possible with no restrictions, but it's not controllable. It's wild. It just grows, because it's wild. **Sonny:** Going into chaos. **Brandon:** That's good too. You got to learn how to operate in the wild. No question. But by limiting our-- By training ourselves. Not just coming to class and rolling or just watching technique or just inactively participating in the class. By training, we make those wild scenarios a repeat occurrence. It's something that, "I've seen this before." It's appearing in the different context now, but I've seen it a thousand times. **Sonny:** I hear that. Let's say you're in Alabama, maybe in the wild of the Jiu-Jitsu, because there was no one there. You have that seminar with Eddie Bravo. He's given you that-- This is the guy who's got the knowledge. He can give you some control over this Jiu-Jitsu beast, shall we say. How long since you did that seminar until you decided to travel out there, and was that scary going out there the first time? **Brandon:** Yes, man. Especially for an old country boy. I'd never been to California before. I thought I was walking to a different world. \[laughs\] The first couple of times I went out there, I just got my, butt handed to me of course. Just trashed. Yes, it was an interesting experience. I started going out pretty quickly though. I've been going out every year. At least once every year since then. Sometimes I stay two weeks, sometimes I just stay a week, sometimes longer. Then I've been flying him out here for seminars and stuff like that the whole time. Then until I got my black belt, this was my rule. If Eddie's doing a seminar to within a 10-hour drive, then I'll make the drive. He was everywhere through the States for the last-- Especially at that time from-- Really, all the time with Eddie. It seemed like once a weekend or once a week- once a month, sorry. I could get out and see him on the weekends. I got actually quite a bit more contact with him than you would think, just because of who he was and the nature of his travel schedule. **Sonny:** When you were travelling, did you know about his history with Royler Gracie? Was that something that drew you towards him? **Brandon:** I learned about it after the first seminar, but not the first time that I went. I really didn't know much about him at all. I heard his name, but I didn't really know who he was. **Sonny:** That's fair enough. Fair enough. Let's be fair, it is a cool name. It does-- **Brandon:** Dude, Eddie Bravo is a cool name. **Sonny:** Does have a good ring to it. **Brandon:** Sounds so much cooler than Mccaghren. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** You're doing the training up there, and what was happening when you were coming back to Alabama? **Brandon:** We were still at the karate school that we started out called Webster's Karate. Great martial arts place, just wasn't Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. But we did have grappling and we had MMA, so I was getting beat up. I had people to spar with. I shouldn't have Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training partners, but I was getting to use my Jiu-Jitsu that I was learning all the time. We had grappling classes. Usually, it was just-- They weren't full classes, but we'd have like 15 minutes of grappling twice a week is what we would do. Then on the weekends, we would have open mat and I would just-- Then I was trying to- I was going- traveling on the weekends to compete or train with somebody. I was a matted at out my garage and I was-- Anybody that wanted to. I was just training all the time. I was very directionless, but I was training all the time. **Sonny:** A bit of the punk, do-it-yourself ethic going on. **Brandon:** Yes. I was doing it. I was trying to reach out to resources as much as I could, because I definitely didn't think I knew anything. It wasn't that. It was just lack of training partners. I was just building-- I was having to find people that could stay with it. People that would stay with it. Eventually, we had a couple of blue belts floating around, and eventually-- It just grew and grew. Until now we got three black belts in every class. It's crazy. **Sonny:** That-- You obviously, run your own school now. Seems rather successful. That started from those- the mat up in your garage? **Brandon:** The school started as a blue belt- when I was a blue belt was when 10th Planet Decatur started. We did it at that school that I was at at Webster's. We had the back room. He gave us the back room. I think he even bought the mats. These old puzzle mats and put them down. Just a step forward after six months, and a step forward after two years. Just eventually it becomes-- It snowballs. I think-- Right now, I think we have 108. Well, I don't know about right now, actually. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I hear you. **Brandon:** But I think we have right around 200 members on the roll. **Sonny:** Nice. **Brandon:** Just at the Decatur location. **Sonny:** When that started, was that-- Eddie had a system that he was doing back in the day I remember, called 10th Planet hotboxes or something like that. Where he would allow people to use his brand. **Brandon:** I was never a hotbox. But what a hotbox was-- There was no official coach, but there was like an official spot you could go. They weren't allowed to charge for training, but the guy who was in charge of the hotbox was trying to learn from Eddie himself. Make sense? **Sonny:** That makes sense. **Brandon:** It wasn't really a place. It wasn't really like an official spot, but it's like, "Yo, 10th Planet friendlies are here." The people would go, "I'm trying to figure it out. I don't have a coach. You too?" We would meet, because of the forums and stuff like that. We would hook up when we could. **Sonny:** That's pretty cool idea. **Brandon:** A couple of good schools popped out of that system. Mobil, Alabama, Muscle Shoals, Alabama, Beaumont, Texas. I think JM and Zach with Grace Gundrum and Thor, where they trained. I think they were a hotbox too. **Sonny:** That's pretty cool. **Brandon:** The hotbox system was cool. It got a little big to be able to monitor it properly. That's why it died out, but the idea was awesome. I love that idea. **Sonny:** Pretty groundbreaking pioneering idea, to try to and allow people to do that. Whereas, a lot of other parts of Jiu-Jitsu is so locked down to-- **Brandon:** That's Eddie though, man. That's what he does. He likes Jiu-Jitsu. Even the way he runs his association. It's not like a money grab for him. He doesn't- I don't-- I'm not required to bring him for a seminar. I'm not required to buy gear. I'm not required to have my gear be a certain color or certain-- Dude, I just pay a small affiliation fee each month. Small. Smaller than-- Very small compared to most organizations, and fly the 10th Planet flag like a boss. As hard as you can. Those are the rules. Eddie's like, "Yo, do you love 10th Planet? Are you one of my black belts? Then let's do this." Then he gives you like, "Fly, little bird. Fly." Like, "Find the best way. I'll be here if you need me." I like that. I love that. **Sonny:** That's very cool, and very different from how other places do things very. Heresy, to some other places to do things like that. It really is. **Brandon:** What have you got to be afraid of? If you're going to lose people or not have a successful- not make as much money, but you're going to be passionate about what you're doing every day. Eddie's pumped about 10th Planet. Probably more pumped about it than he's ever been. **Sonny:** It's generous of him to be able to do that, because he's-- The 10th Planet brand now has grown so huge, especially from his involvement with Joe Rogan. It's just always getting that exposure, right. That for a lot of people coming into it, there is that attraction to 10th Planet, of being that little bit different, that little bit on the outside, but yet everyone seems to have heard of it. It's probably a common thing. You find white belts on the mat going like, "I want to try this Rubber Guard. I want to learn this twist. What's going on with those guys over there? What's this Lockdown?" It seems to be that that's probably a common experience with everyone teaching at every Jiu-Jitsu school. There's always a few guys who are like, "What are these 10th Planet guys doing over there on. I want find out." **Brandon:** A couple of 10th Planet dorks over in the corner. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** It is. There's that attraction to it, which is funny, but it's situated in that in that space, it seems. **Brandon:** My understanding is that causes tension in some places, which I don't really understand. For the most part, I think everybody's cool with it. It seems to be. It's a little different than it used to be. 10th Planet definitely used to carry a different- it used to carry the Scarlet Letter. Like, "Oh, god. It's 10th Planet. Run. You're going to get high just seeing him." **Sonny:** I was always lucky that my coach is a Machado blackbelt. We had-- **Brandon:** You moved? **Sonny:** Yes. We always had Rubber Guard and Twisters has been in our syllabus as things to learn, and there was never any pushback if I want to experiment with 10th Planet or really with anything. A very-- Anthony Lang, shout out. A very open-minded and-- Was very cool like that, but there was definitely that time where it was seen as you just going to-- One you're probably going to injure yourself or two, you're gone off the deep end. Like, "That stuff don't work." **Brandon:** You probably think 9-11 was an inside job now. You know what I mean? **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Exactly. **Brandon:** Them chemtrails is everywhere. **Sonny:** Well, that's just something Eddie's it is known for now. For sure as the other part, right? **Brandon:** Man, he may be more-- Right now, at this point in his life, he might be more popular as a conspiracy theorist than as a Jiu-Jitsu guy. Really, he might be. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] There's got to be a lot of conspiracy theorists people happy that he's flying their flag, the same way he's happy you're flying the 10th Planet flag. **Brandon:** Man, he loves the conspiracy theory, boy. I like to listen to him. I don't know. I'm too dumb to really make my mind up one way or the other usually. I just listen. I'd be like, "That is-- He's crazy." I like it. **Sonny:** That's something with-- 10th Planet, the schools I know are called Moons. I'm not sure. Like, the Planet. The moons on the Planet. That's probably-- **Brandon:** I don't know. Whatever. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That's probably it, . But as an instructor then, there's no, "If you're going to become a Moon, you've got to believe that something's crazy about the world." There's no-- \[laughs\] **Brandon:** No. No, nothing like that. Really-- Honestly, man. Eddie doesn't really care what even kind of Jiu-Jitsu you did. You don't have to do the Lockdown and Rubber Guard and all that stuff to be a 10th Planet guy. Something one of his black belts told me one time that I really love. Samir Olam told me that the Lockdown is not the 10th Planet gospel. An open mind is the 10th Planet gospel. It doesn't make much difference to Eddie or to me either. If you're a Lockdown or Rubber-- I don't care what kind of guards you play, but you better play some guard. But you better build your guard on these principles, otherwise it's not going to be a real guard. Sometimes that manifests itself as Rubber Guard based on you and your experiences, your attributes, the moment. Sometimes that may manifest itself is a No Gi Spider Guard in some situations. That's okay, too. Don't hate. Just let it come to you. As long as you build your game around good solid principles, then who cares what techniques you use, dude. I couldn't care less. **Sonny:** That's interesting. I'm in a 10th Planet school and I'm like, "You know what? I don't like Rubber Guard. I'm not going to play it." No one's going to be there going-- **Brandon:** No. So Matt Skaff, I have a couple of black belts under me now, but the first two I gave, I gave on the same day. Shawn Applegate, Matt Scaff. Scaff has been with me since he was a white belt. He's still there everyday now. He doesn't play any Rubber Guard and he never did. Never did, but he's a destructive black belt. You don't have to play Rubber Guard to be an awesome guard player. You have to play Rubber Guard to do certain things with your guard or to get certain submissions that you're interested in. But the thing that I believe Jiu-Jitsu is, I can't want the Rubber Guard in the first place or I can't want the Lockdown or the Half-guard or the Z or whatever. Any kind of desire I have to chase those things puts me behind. It makes me late. I believe in a real reactionary style of play. Almost like, "I'm going to stick to you and then you decide what happens next, but I'll win." if that make sense . Theoretically, at least. It doesn't always play out that way. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I hear that. You're saying it's that idea of you react to what the opponent gives you, and you won't fight to force them into a certain position like the Rubber Guard. If it's not there, it's not there. It's the same way with the personality of someone that you're coaching. If it's there for them and they want to follow that path, that's fine. But you're not going to ever force that onto them. Is that roughly right? **Brandon:** Yes. I don't want to say never. Some guys need to be forced. Some guys need to be corralled down a little tighter. Like, "Okay. You're not going to be a top player at 109-Pound" or "You're not going to be a mount guy, probably." You know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes. I get you. **Brandon:** Maybe let's work on leg locks for you for a little while or something. **Sonny:** I hear that. That takes us back to talking about those limitations, that we do need to put them on there. As much as we like to talk about the open mind and everything, those limitations are \[crosstalk\] . **Brandon:** The open mind, to me, that's what gives you the choice of what to work on. That's how you can stay passionate everyday, because you're training. You're working, but you're working on something that interests you. Like a white belt says, "Brandon, I really love Jiu-Jitsu, but I'm not growing too fast. What should I be working on?" What makes you want to train really well tomorrow? That's what you should be working on. You're a white belt. The game is so big. You can't possibly pick something that you're good at. Because you're a white belt. That means you suck. Just grab something that excites you, makes you want to train, and dive as deep as you know how. When your interest shifts, that's okay. You'll have built a base level set there. You'll probably pick up new things enrolling now with that new base level set, but when your interest shifts, move your interest. I was interested in mount, now I'm interested in leg locks. Go. Fly, little bird. If you build your game on principles instead of just memorizing moves, then every time that you're learning something, you're learning everything. Does that make sense? **Sonny:** Yes. **Brandon:** I know that makes sense to you. People that are listening, "Nobody knows what he's talking about. Obviously, it makes sense to him." Say I build my mount escapes on the principles of balance and weight distribution and leverage and timing. The mount escape is built on that. Not on, "Where do I put my hand? Where do I put my feet? When do I bump it?" Those are all important, but the principles are what make the technique work. Well, those principles-- When you learn weight distribution in situation A, if you're really learning weight distribution, not just memorizing a movement. Then you also improve your weight distribution on other situations, because you've improved your general understanding of what it means to distribute weight. Even though I might be learning it from the mount over here, it's going to work on my leg lock escapes over here, because the principle never changes. It's always true. Does that make sense? If you have somebody who can guide your learning well in the beginning, which is hard to find. If you have somebody that can guide your learning well, I'll give you as much rope as you want. Go learn whatever thing it is you want to learn, but you're going to learn Jiu-Jitsu during the course of learning through the filter of mount escapes, let's say. **Sonny:** You're saying as a coach, you can let your students explore with whatever techniques really they want. Whatever techniques they're interest them, that draw them, that keep them passionate, that keep them making wanting to show up on the mats day after day to try out this new move. Whatever it is. As long as they're doing it in a way that they can [learn and understand the principles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) that can translate to something else when they get bored of that technique. **Brandon:** Yes. That's a much smarter way than all the words that I said. **Sonny:** No. You're putting it up there, mate. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** It's a softball for me- to me. Don't worry. \[laughs\] It is interesting though, because one of the things I've been talking about with a few other people, which I think is a great innovation by 10th Planet, is the warm-up system. Which no one else is doing. Certainly, the first people that I-- The first affiliation I heard of doing it and he probably still is. Especially the way he's doing it. **Brandon:** I think so. **Sonny:** Everyone's got warm-ups, of course. If I don't know what I'm talking about, that's not going to make sense. Maybe you could give us a rundown of what 10th Planet is doing with their warm-ups. **Brandon:** What Eddie does-- If you try to come to Eddie's class at HQ and you don't know the warm-up, he's going to be like, "Go to the beginner class." Eddie's theory is the same as hitting the heavy bag in boxing or hitting the speed bag in boxing or just hitting mitts. We're going to memorize this combo. Until this combo is stuck into your DNA, you're going to hit the mitts just like this. You know what? Once you do know the combo, you're going to come back and you're going to hit the mitts again. There's only a couple of punches in boxing. The potential combinations of techniques are much, much smaller than say, in Jiu-Jitsu. That's a limited rule set. Why do guys who are really, really great like a Floyd Mayweather. Why does Floyd Mayweather still hit mitts? Why is he still running those basic combinations everyday? Because he's still finding improvement. He's making sure that they're stuck in his DNA, and that when it's time to throw the punch, he doesn't throw it. The punch throws itself. That's Eddie's theory with the warm-ups. He took what in his opinion are the most important techniques to him or even if it's not the most important technique, it's a technique that teaches a thing that he wants taught, puts them into a flow. He did 32 of them. I think there's eight sets of four. There's 32 total. You run one set of four each time you come to class, and that's the first 15 minutes of class. It's a memorized flow. It's hitting mitts. Instead of just, whatever push-ups or running and whatever torture that the coach might have in mind to start class. Let's just get going with some Jiu-Jitsu mitt work. **Sonny:** I like the sounds of that. Because even when I'm getting people to warm-up-- "We've got to do hip escapes. We go to shrimp, prawning. We've got to do it." **Brandon:** Prawns. Is what y'all call it? No way. **Sonny:** No, just me. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I thought I'd throw that in there. For being an American, I thought you'd enjoy it. That's not widely used. **Brandon:** Well, I'm going to take it and I'm going to start doing it. **Sonny:** We do that. We're trying to get to a Million or something. Once everyone gets that-- Everyone has to know that movement. Everyone has to have that down. They've got to know what it is. Really after a point, like, "Okay. We really are just warming up. You guys probably all know how to do this, because we've done at least 100,000 by now." We just throw it in. The warm-up system that Eddie's put in, it does seem to be a lot like a Kata. A Jiu-Jitsu Kata. Especially now when people aren't allowed to train or who knows where they are, but a lot of people having difficulty getting into the gym right now. Having a Kata to workout on or something like that doesn't seem like such a bad idea, if you've got the ability to do it. He's got all these high-percentage moves that he's worked into a flow. If you go to the advanced class, first 15 minutes, you're just warming up using that. Is the beginner class just each one of those moves broken down? How does that beginner's class then work for people? **Brandon:** I think everybody does it a little different. We don't do it exactly- at our school- exactly the way that Eddie does it. The way that it works at HQ is you want to come to Eddie's class, you have to know the warm-up, so that you can do the warm-up, but in the beginner's class, it's just about teaching those 32 patterns. There's a ton of Jiu-Jitsu included. They're long patterns. It's just about teaching those 32 patterns in the beginner's class. **Sonny:** Because if anyone is interested, it's definitely worthwhile going to have a look at some of those patterns. They're great for Instagram videos as well, I noticed. **Brandon:** No doubt. \[laughter\] **Brandon:** In my opinion, they shouldn't be looked at as, "Do these moves. These moves are the 10th Planet system." It should be looked at as hitting the mitts. When you see somebody hit the mitts, you don't go, "Well, it's not a real fight. That wouldn't work in real life." Of course not, bro. He's hitting the mitts. He's running through his pattern. That's really the way it should be thought of. It's done with just proper resistance. Not much resistance, but not no resistance, the [proper resistance so that both partners](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) understand where this is going. Once you get to a high level, you're throwing three, five-movement combinations. Your body's producing combinations that you didn't even know were there sometimes. Having the guys working combinations like that I think is really smart. **Sonny:** They've got those combinations to piece together. I'm having trouble thinking of something that's in there now, but say a common backtake or a leg drag. Sure, there's probably a leg drag in there somewhere. Guys will come to the beginner's class. How will it be broken down? Would you say, "Okay, we're learning a leg drag today and this is in this combination," but it's just a leg drag? **Brandon:** Let's say I was going to teach one of the warm-ups and there was a leg drag in the warm-up. Say the flow was we drag the leg pass, we drop into the leg drag. He's going to turn and we're going to take the back from there. That's a three-move combination. The point of that exercise though is not the backtake, it's the leg drag. That's the part we're trying to emphasize, let's say. We're going to spend time talking about the leg drag, the purpose of the leg drag, when the leg drag might come up, here's where you need your hands to be, your head to be, your body positioning. SBG would define it like, "Here's the posture, the pressure and the possibilities from this position." Then, we'll explore it from there. "Today, beginners, what's going to happen is he's going to turn and we're going to jump on the back. It's a position you're going to see a lot. In fact, you're going to need to know how to do it just like this. It's not the only time the leg drag is used, it's just the only time the leg drag is used tonight. All right, everybody ready? One, two, three," then we'll break on it. **Sonny:** Got you. I like the sound of that. I'm going to try to fit it into a music metaphor because you like guitar. \[chuckles\] See how we go. Is it like the individual moves then become notes or chords that the students can play, the warm-ups then become a scale that they can go through, and then when you let them into free-rolling, they're doing solos? **Brandon:** I love it. That's great. Actually, that's a great analogy. The scales analogy is really a great analogy. Like me and you are going to play guitar together and we've never played before. It's my turn to solo, I don't just start playing scales, but if I want to be good at soloing, then I'd better be good at scales. Yes, the warm-ups can be thought of as scales and maybe the individual moves are chords or they're licks. They're riffs maybe. **Sonny:** That would probably make more sense. A little bit more to them than just the single note. **Brandon:** Dude, that's a great analogy. I don't know if that analogy works for people who don't play guitar, but it works for me, bro. That makes perfect sense to me. **Sonny:** I grew up in a musical family. **Brandon:** What instruments do you play? **Sonny:** Well, I've stopped playing when I got into martial arts though, but my dad is a guitarist and I grew up playing guitar, piano. I did a bit of saxophone. **Brandon:** Oh man. I don't play any wind instruments. I love to hear a good saxophone player though. **Sonny:** Me, too. \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Sonny Rollins is the namesake inspiration that was always-- It helped later on in the day. **Brandon:** You've got to channel some of that energy. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I think that's a good thing too then to just have that structure for beginners. That's one thing I've been chatting about with a lot of people. Everyone has a little different take on how beginners are boarding to the club, but everyone understands that it's the most important thing because nearly everyone teaching back in the day, it was kind of sink or swim with everyone. **Brandon:** No doubt. **Sonny:** There wasn't this structure to try and keep people around. It was turn up on the mats. If you can hang, if you can stick around, then great. We'll take you on. Now, everyone understands the benefit of having something in place to keep people wanting to turn up to do this sport that is tough. Let's face it. A big thing that can contribute to that is just that club culture and getting people onboard and building an environment that's friendly and not so, I guess intimidating, is a common word that people have coming into any type of gym. You seem to be pretty passionate about doing that and I've heard you talk about that being an important thing to you. How do you think that plays into Jiu-JItsu? Not the technique, not the moves, but just the environment that you can actually build to get people to keep doing Jiu-JItsu. **Brandon:** I think it's everything, man. Again, I didn't start Jiu-Jitsu because I wanted to be a world champion or even because I thought that I might be able to get good. I didn't even consider that that might be a possibility. You know what I mean? I just needed a thing to go do to help me get healthy that I would keep doing. Because that was the problem, I could start at the gym. Everyone of us could start at the gym and we could start a good diet and start eating well, but it's keeping something going is the most important part. For me in the beginning, I was lucky that my wife started training with me on day one. She was actually the one that was like, "You've got to do something, you're getting fat." I was like, "Okay, okay. We'll figure it out." That's a true story. \[laughs\] She's a black belt. She stayed with it everyday, too. She's a black belt, too. It's been awesom through quarantine. It's been great for quarantine. I was lucky to be able to start training with her because I wanted to be there every night. We were doing it together. We were starting at the same time so we bought were unskilled. It was a new thing together. It wasn't a situation where she was teaching me or I was more advanced than her. We were both ignorant together at the same time so it was fun. It was a fun environment. Plus, I can't praise Jamie Webster enough for the way that he ran his karate. He still runs and it's still a great school, it's just different than what we do. He really instilled in us the idea that martial arts were going to benefit us. We were going to benefit from learning martial arts. Come to class even when you don't feel good. Come to class. We'll make it an environment and he made it an environment that we wanted to come to. It was an opportunity for me and Lindsey to get away from the kids for just a little bit, spend some time together. That's a huge part of the culture at our gym is I train, my wife trains, and we're on the mat everyday. Both of our kids train and they're on the mat. We have a ton of husband and wife and kids combos that come in and train. We have a very family atmosphere at our place because it starts at the top. We know now what we didn't know in the beginning, which is that hours are really the only thing that matters. Hours on the mat is the only way to get good. Where if I run you off, you will never accumulate the hours if I rough you up and send you out here. Even if it's rough, if you feel like your soul benefited from being there tonight, you'll come back tomorrow. Even if it's rough. Even if it was hard. It is. It's rough, it's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's weird, it's gross, but if you feel like your person benefited from it, you'll come back tomorrow. If it was fine, you'll come back tomorrow. To me, again, I'm not trying to raise up a competition gym. We've got good competitors, but our good competitors are good because they love it so much and they spend so much time on the mats, not because I pushed that atmosphere. I pushed the, "This is going to be good for you. If you could just stomach it and come and try it out, you're going to really like it." Right now, not that many, but we'll put 60 people on the mats every night with that spirit right there. The training is high level when it is but it's fun most of the time. The average student doesn't care anything about getting good, they're just looking for something. It could be self-defense, it could be health, it could be a community, but they're looking for something, and it's almost certainly not to be the UFC champ. **Sonny:** That seems to be an overall factor that just overrides everything is people got to have fun. People got to have fun. **Brandon:** I've got to have fun. **Sonny:** Everyone's got to have fun. **Brandon:** If I'm training to be the best person in my gym, if I'm trying to be the best person that I train with, well, I did it. I'm the best person that I train with. So then, why keep training if that was the objective? There has to be some other thing that brings be back. I do want to keep getting better, I am very passionate about it, but honestly, it benefits me tremendously to be there. It benefits me physically. Right now, especially during all this craziness, I think all of us see more than ever that it benefits us mentally. More than we even realize, most of us. Especially those of us that train everyday and just take it for granted. it benefits us mentally more than we even knew. There's just something about physical touch and adding a skill. It's a potion that just can't be messed with. It's a winning potion. **Sonny:** I hear that. Sometimes I feel like I wish I enjoyed just doing Tai Chi in the park a bit more and my shoulder wouldn't hurt as much. **Brandon:** I feel that. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** It's not as fun. **Brandon:** I like some of that stuff. I like some of that stuff. **Sonny:** It's okay. **Brandon:** There's been some things, I went on a kick for a little while where I was reading a lot of essays from Tai chi. I went on a kick for a little while where I was really learning a lot about the touch that I wanted my Jujutsu to have. Just from reading some of the theories and trying to practice some of the-- I don't have a Tai chi coach or anything, but just like listening to their martial theories and our martial philosophy. I would have to say that Tai chi is much, much more art than martial, but that doesn't mean there's no value in it. **Sonny:** I should say it he wasn't bragging on Tai chi. I don't know if you've read the book The Art of Learning? You know Josh- **Brandon:** Yes, Josh Waitzkin. Sonny: -Waitzkin, the Margelo Garcia black belt now, but his book, The Art of Learning, he goes into the World Tai chi Championships. Before I read that book, I had no idea that it could actually be a competitive side. When you actually look at his matches and his matches actually seemed to be some of the only ones online. The competitive side is definitely not promoted by Tai chi I think. **Brandon:** Definitely. **Sonny:** They really look like \[crosstalk\] **Brandon:** Nodi, Judo, or sort of. **Sonny:** Yes. It like okay, they have the, what was it? Fixed feet and free open feet or something. One where they have to keep their feet planted, then that's just total reaction where they try and push people over like Sumo wrestling. But if they Sumo-- I always pronounce that wrong people don't understand what I say. **Brandon:** I like the way you pronounced it. I thought it was great. **Sonny:** Sumo? They have to stay their feet planted and they can push each other over three feet or whatever it's called. **Brandon:** I can't remember how it's called. It might be open. They have fixed style and open style. I get a lot of value. If you ever have a student come in, those students that come into their life and no matter what move you teach them they're like this. They are balled up a rock. I'll teach them how to do that fixed style, Tai chi. Foot to foot, and then running the circle and feel how when you push me that makes you stiff and I can move you and feel how you relax, I can't move you so easily anymore. Oh, okay, and that can start to help open up their learning there. **Sonny:** That's a good way. Actually, one way I've actually used it as well is just for like a fun game with people. I'd Get them to stand on kickbags. One foot each on kickbags and just hand your hand here. Go. You guys would just try to push each other off, just to keep things-- It's a fun little game. **Brandon:** Again, it's fine. **Sonny:** I got it from looking at Tai chi. **Brandon:** Like you, I never would've thought that there was any value to Tai chi had I not read Art of Learning. I think at the time he was a Brown belt under Marcella that I read the book. I remember when he got his black belt, it was a big deal. It was Marcella's first black belt. I knew that he was a really good Jujutsu practitioner and that he was not just saying, I used to do Tai Chi, but no, no, no there's martial value here, look into it. Okay. I'll try. I've found that for my own style, at least I've found that to be definitely true. **Sonny:** Interesting. I didn't expect to \[crosstalk\] out of Tai chi. **Brandon:** Again, I should be real clear. I don't know anything about Tai Chi, but I'm not like a study practitioner anyway. I just was trying to glean. Knowing what I did know about martial arts, trying to glean, where is the martial value here? It's in the training style, it's in the philosophy. It's not in the martial technique because there's not any, but the art has a lot to teach about how to make my martial more martial. **Sonny:** The other big takeaway is obviously when you see older elderly people doing it in the park and they're out there at an old age still moving well. Maybe that's something to consider. Bringing it back to fun and keeping things fun. Let's say, I'm a white belt coming into your class. I'll be gone a couple of weeks. Maybe I've had a rough night. Some guys sweat it on us, something's a bit sore. Didn't get any taps. What do you actually do to make things fun, to make that person want to keep coming back? What's some tangible ways that can be done? **Brandon:** Well, I think mainly just checking on them and making sure that they understand that that's the process that you signed up for. That feeling you have right there that's what you were looking for. That I didn't accomplish what I set out to accomplish. Good. That means your goals were high enough to know. "I didn't get what I needed to get this guy beat me up". Good, good. You need those things. The fire refines the gold. You don't understand what I mean. It burns away the impurities. There's no way to find the gold without putting it through the fire. Good job. The fire is going to last longer than you think I'll see you tomorrow, right? Yes, yes. When's your next class you're coming to? I don't know, I got to check my schedule. No, no, no. When are you coming next? You'd be here Tuesday at six. Yes, yes I'll be here Tuesday at six. I'll see you then don't miss. You know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes. **Brandon:** That's a little trick there. Just getting them to commit, to saying a time and a day on the way out the door is actually a huge thing. **Sonny:** You're creating that personal connection then with you how I'm holding you accountable for turning up, but you're turning up because it's going to be fun. This is tough, but we know that there's benefit from it. We know that there's value from it. People probably intuitively know that, "Hey, I'm working hard at something. This is going to pay off eventually". But you got to give them the reason to put themselves through that, through the fire to actually get that. **Brandon:** We ease everybody in man. If you're just a random dude coming in and you've never trained before, you're pretty out of shape. You know that you're walking into something hard. You're like, "dude, I just got to do something". We're going to ease you in. I don't let people roll on their first night. Like, stop you are not going to roll tonight unless you've got a background already, that's a little different. Like you wrestled in college. Well, okay, come on over here. I got a got a little things for you. Little things like that when they do start, I'll make the matches generally in the beginner's class. Me or one of the coaches we make the matches that we feel are appropriate as much as we can. We've got a ton of people in there these days it's not as easy as that used to be. You just got 20 people in class, "All right everybody on the wall. You two guys, come on out here. Y'all go" you know what I mean, making those matches. Otherwise, you'll have black belt hunters roaming the room looking for who they can beat up and get there. Then those people generally will duck hard matches too. They'll just run around and look for white belts to beat up on to make sure that they don't get beat up. We also limit the beginners to three rounds in the beginner class. They go to class, they drill, and then they're only allowed to roll three rounds at the end of that. Then we break in the advanced days and then we keep going after that. We turn them, "get out to here, three rounds that's all you're getting tonight". **Sonny:** Leave them one more right? **Brandon:** Leave them one more and for smoke, a lot of the guys only wanted two. A lot of the new people only wanted one or they didn't want to get out there at all. Hitting that mark, hitting three is a big deal to them. Rather than going "All right, we're going to roll for the rest of the night, and then you go in", "Oh, I can't take anymore. I can't, I don't know if I can get a fourth-round in." Then getting that beginner feeling like everybody's watching me quit and walk off the mat. You don't get the opportunity to have that feeling. We cut you off at three. When we think you're ready to start bumping up, then we start- we don't hold everybody there forever by any means, but some people need to be held there for a while. **Sonny:** No, that's a good way of looking at it because obviously, I'm thinking my first reaction is leave them wanting more because that's just my mindset thinking that everyone wants to keep doing it. I wasn't considering that. There might be people they're scared of getting in that one round. I'm just okay, I'm happy with it. **Brandon:** There might be they definitely were. I was. Man, there were times when I first started training and we had that MMA class, I didn't know anything. I literally I was 230 pounds at that time, five feet, eight inches tall, 230 pounds. Now I'm 170, well probably a little more like 180 right now. If I'm being honest, I've been eating a little quarantine healthy, but when I was a big boy, I was at least 50 pounds overweight and I didn't know anything. The first class I went to, I got the food beat out of me. They beat me to death. The next, I don't know, man, for the next several months, it was just that it was just basically like being the new guy, just getting hammered, just crushed. Man, I would sit in my car sometimes and just be so nervous about going back inside. If I wasn't the kind of person that I am, I liked things like that it's not so bad, but that is weird. You gotta be flicked in the head to stay with that and most people will not get out of the car after the third or fourth time. They'll just be like, "this is \[crosstalk\] I'm going to the house." **Sonny:** What I've certainly found is that most or a lot of the people who have been doing this for a long time or started or a bit longer ago, everyone has that mindset that they were probably going to get to black belt and keep doing it probably no matter what happened in those first classes, but yet now people are coming in and hey, they just want to work out. They just want to get fit. They've heard about this sport that's getting a bit more coverage. People are talking about it. They especially heard about on Joe Rogan. That's a big- **Brandon:** Honestly, that's helped out a lot, not just for exposure but for letting people know what they're walking into. He goes, "Hey listen, it's going to be hard. This little nerd is going to kick your butt and you're going to want to quit and he's going to break your arm and it's a death game or death video." Crazy but it lets people know what they're walking into a little bit. I also find like having so much content, so much video content out on our school. It's like people know, they kind of know us when they get there, if they've been a little nervous and I've been investigating, watching all dude, there's so much video and so much audio of me that you can almost like know everything about my life before you even walk in. Not only that but people have seen the mat room that's familiar to them. They know that there's a little tiki hut over in the corner. They know there's bleachers right there. They know that big bay door opens. They know you got to walk. You know what I'm saying? They know it's not unfamiliar when they get there. It makes it much easier too and then they say, look, I'm not a big tattooed scary looking guy. I'm a little dorky redneck fella and I smile a lot and he's the guy in charge, this will be okay. Then what I actually have is I have people take it not seriously enough sometimes because they're comfortable when they come in as well. I hold on this idea, it's not going to be as easy as you thought. I'm going to mess you up. **Sonny:** It's funny you mentioned people being like, coming in a bit out of shape. Do you have the excuse over there? The same that I hear a lot here. I'm going to come to training once I get fit enough. **Brandon:** Yes, that's ridiculous. **Sonny:** That seems to be a common one. **Brandon:** It's understandable though because like for most sports, if you can like for basketball or let's say football, if I can get in great shape to play basketball, a lot of that's going to translate to football because we're running or jumping and we're exploding and we're cutting back and forth and just light body contacts. There's no grappling, there's no striking, anything like that. There's no up and down, up and down off the floor. Most sports translate to each other at least a little bit, but nothing translates to grappling and grappling don't really translate to anything else either. Just because I can roll for like-- I could roll for four hours before I had to stop, but I bet if you asked me if you asked me to run a mile, I would fall over dead. **Sonny:** Yes. I hear you. I've been doing running during this time just to keep something up. **Brandon:** I tell everybody I learned how to fight so I wouldn't have to run no more. **Sonny:** Fair-play to that. **Brandon:** Fight or flight, it's always going to be fight. **Sonny:** Fairplay.What would you tell someone if they're thinking, "I'm not going to come into class because I do want to get fit first." What would you tell that person if they're listening to this now? That's what they're thinking. "I want to try to jiu jitsu, but I'm going to get fit". What would you say to them? **Brandon:** I always encourage you to get as in shape as you can. You're going to need every bit of it. Then when you get out of shape, you're going to find out that it was wasted time. You should have just listened to me in the first place and sign up for class on day one. I don't want to say it's wasted because getting in good shape is never wasted. Right. Obviously the better shape you're in, the more athletic potential you're going to have when you do start getting your butt kicked but rest assured you don't know how to use your body, you're going to get tired. It doesn't matter what kind of shape you're in, if you're in shape for running, you're in shape for efficiency and running, but you don't know anything about how to squeeze efficiently or how to rest and when to rest and how to breathe, get in class. That's the only way to get in shape for grappling is to grapple. **Sonny:** Nice. I like that. I hear that very loud and clear. Just one last question, I guess about keeping things fun is do you play music while you roll? Being a musician, what music do you like to listen to if you do it? **Brandon:** I am a Pearl Jam man. I love Pearl Jam. **Sonny:** There we go. There we go. **Brandon:** I play Pearl Jam. They get sick of it. They get sick of Pearl Jam but I play Pearl Jam albums pretty much every session. I like that kind of music. I like rock. I don't mind hip hop, but a lot of times we will have kids in our theroom and stuff and I don't want to blast that too loud. I'm not against it but it just depends on who's in the room. You know what I'm saying? **Sonny:** I hear you, sometimes. One, I feel sorry for sometimes the students having to listen to the music I', playing and two sometimes I will listen to lyrics and think, "Ooh, sounds a bit different when it's just in my headphones." **Brandon:** I don't like anything too hard though. I don't like real hard music when I train. I like just chill stuff, man. Nothing too wild because I don't play like a real aggressive style. **Sonny:** You think that does help create that vibe in the room? **Brandon:** Yes. The music definitely. Run this experiment, any of you, I dare you try to play, just play a Jackson five and music from the fifties and the sixties and your next class and watch what happens. Just watch and you tell me. **Sonny:** Alright, interesting. I can't wait to get back and give that a shot. We'll report back and see how that goes. **Brandon:** Make sure you play stuff like that everybody knows the words to and it feels like bebop-y like this and watch what happens in class. Even try with like eighties pop music or something like that and watch what happens to the class. **Sonny:** Okay. I like it. I'm starting to groove out now just running that through my head. **Brandon:** I know, **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Last question would be just a bit of advice to that you could tell your white belt self back in the day if we could go back in the time machine, ghost of jiu jitsu past. What would be the one thing that you could say that you think your white belt self would benefit the most from hearing? **Brandon:** Well, the thing that I would want to tell myself, I already heard when I was a white belt. You just don't listen, but it's like "Tap earlier or you don't have to win at all". That would be something that I would say I would really emphasize to myself. "You don't have to win at all. You can't win, and you're not impressing anybody by how tough you're acting. You're not tough either. Settle down, take your L and learn what you're supposed to learn. It's a longer process. You don't have to be good tomorrow." **Sonny:** I hear that. That's good advice for sure for people to take on board. **Brandon:** Well I heard all that as a white belt. I just didn't hear it. **Sonny:** That's one of the things we've been talking about too is the problem of then trying to get people just to learn solely from the own mistakes that you've made without letting them make their own mistakes. It seems to be a hard thing. If we could just listen to every bit of advice people give us, the world would be a different place, but people have to make their own mistakes and finding out a way to allow them to do that and so they can actually take that advice because they have to make the mistake themselves to learn it which is weird. **Brandon:** There's great value in self discovery. When you come up with the answer to a problem yourself, it sticks differently. Right? It doesn't mean that I didn't understand it when you gave me the advice, I understood what you said, but it didn't stick to my DNA the same way because when I had no choice but to do it this way, when this way solved the problem for me, "Look at this thing I came up with." "Brandon, I told you that three years ago", "well I came up with this just now". **Sonny:** Exactly. That's something, look, maybe we can come back do this again another time. We can do it a bit more because I really enjoyed this chat and I think there's a lot of valuable things to take away from it and thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. **Brandon:** It's a pleasure for real. Thank you so much. **Sonny:** B.Mac. Can I call you B.Mac now? **Brandon:** Yes we're pretty much best friends now. **Sonny:** Beautiful, B.Mac. If people want to get in touch with you, I know you've got a great website, you've got some courses on there. You also got stuff with BJJ fanatics on the rubber guard that people can buy and check out. You got a bunch of courses online, people want to do those, get in touch with you. What should they do? **Brandon:** Just go to Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Brandon MC.Ninja. That's me. Just look it up. There'll be something free right there for you and some variety on any of those channels you go to. There's tons of free content. If you're looking for something a little more in depth. I got four courses that are free as well and then I got paid products as well. Just start with the free stuff. **Sonny:** Beautiful. I hear you got a free one on the triangle choke at the moment is that- **Brandon:** I do man if you want, I'll send you a link to where everybody- and a code to where everybody can get it and \[crosstalk\] I'll put it out to them after that. **Sonny:** Yes, we'll put that in the show notes and a little link section and everyone can get on board with that. B.Mac thanks so much for your time, sir. Really appreciate it and stay safe and let's chat again in the future. **Brandon:** Sounds good, man. Thank you so much, sir. **Sonny:** Thank you. Take care mate. ![Brandon McCaghren on Restrictions & Wilderness on the 10th Planet](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bmac_tsbb_promo.jpg "bmac_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Jon Fitch Interview On How It's All Your Fault, Failing Upwards & MMA Fighter Pay](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jon-fitch-interview-fault-mma-fighter-pay/) **Published:** June 23, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jon Fitch](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jon_fitch-1024x576.jpg "Jon Fitch › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Jon Fitch**, former UFC title-challenger and World Series of Fighting welterweight champion, about the habits that carried him from primary-school wrestling mats in Indiana to two decades at the elite end of mixed martial arts. We cover visualisation, disciplined longevity, masculinity, building an online audience and, above all, his drive to secure fairer contracts and collective bargaining for fighters. #### Listen To The Jon Fitch Interview Here: #### Listen to the episode: - **[Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-its-all-your-fault-failing-upwards-fighter-pay/id1476963733?i=1000479201627)** - **[Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2jxbVk0QC95VkpCl8Aovwh?si=546fa7620f0048e5)** ## YouTube ## Key Topics ### Wrestling foundations and the leap to MMA Fitch recalls discovering amateur wrestling as a restless eight-year-old, then walking on at Purdue University under heavyweight legend Tom Erickson. Those college years shaped his trademark grinding style: relentless hand-fighting, chain-wrestling on the cage and an unshakeable belief that conditioning decides outcomes. The transition to MMA felt natural once he realised he could “solve striking” by closing distance and forcing opponents to defend takedowns first. He also explains how wrestling’s team culture gave him the humility to accept coaching feedback and the resilience to handle early losses on the smaller shows. ### Mindset, visualisation and stoic practice Fitch describes a nightly routine in fight camp: closing his eyes, walking through the arena tunnel in real time, feeling the Vaseline on his face and hearing the referee’s instructions. By rehearsing every sensory detail, he muted performance anxiety and entered bouts with a sense of déjà vu. He links this to stoicism, citing Marcus Aurelius: focus on what you can control, rehearse adverse scenarios and choose your response. Journaling after hard sessions kept emotions in check, and pre-bout cold-water immersion acted as a physical reminder that discomfort is temporary and controllable. ### Longevity through disciplined programming Now well beyond forty professional appearances, Fitch credits his durability to “training to peak on fight night, not win sparring rounds”. He cut heavy live-goes to once a week, spent off-days on mobility and sauna-cold rotation, and tracked heart-rate variability to decide daily intensity. Nutrition meant home-cooked protein, seasonal vegetables and strict caffeine windows; supplementation focused on vitamin D, omega-3 and magnesium. He also changed corners late in his career, choosing coaches who would pull him out of rounds when technical focus slipped, rather than fuelling ego-driven gym wars. ### Fighter pay, antitrust action and an association model Fitch lays out the numbers: in team sports the athletes receive roughly fifty per cent of event revenue, yet recent UFC pay-per-views send closer to twelve per cent to fighters. His class-action suit claims the promotion’s exclusive contracts and “champion’s clause” breach antitrust law, depressing wages industry-wide. He argues for an independent fighters’ association (similar to the Screen Actors Guild) instead of a single-promotion union, so that rankings, medical funds and cross-promotion bouts can be negotiated collectively without running afoul of US labour statutes. ### Positive masculinity, self-improvement and family life For Fitch, masculinity is measured by stewardship, not dominance. He lifts weights to keep testosterone healthy, plays the ukulele to replace late-night gaming binges and sets aside technology-free hours for his sons. He advocates men’s circles where fighters can discuss mental health without stigma and credits the late coach Robert Follis for modelling empathy alongside competitiveness. The goal is to leave the sport “better and wiser”, not merely richer. ### Social media as a survival skill for modern fighters Promoters, he says, “squeeze pre-juiced oranges”. To fund camps and negotiate leverage, fighters must treat themselves as content creators from day one: build an email list, post value-first instructional clips, partner with equipment brands on affiliate codes and convert casual viewers into long-term supporters. Fitch outlines his own funnel – weekly YouTube live-streams, podcast guest spots, a free “Weight-Cut Bible” PDF, and stresses that health insurance, travel costs and retirement planning depend on these parallel income streams until revenue splits improve. ## Key Takeaways - Fitch attributes much of his career to discipline, conditioning and a willingness to keep improving after failure. - His wrestling background shaped a pressure-based MMA style built around controlling distance and forcing predictable reactions. - He treats setbacks as information rather than as proof that the process has failed. - The conversation also highlights the structural problems fighters face around pay, promotion and career leverage. ## Resources #### Quotes - Discipline kept me winning long after the talent ran out.” - “If you cannot change it, accept it, then choose how you respond.” - “Promoters are squeezing oranges – arrive juiced or be ignored.” - “Low testosterone makes men sad; lift weights before you lift prescriptions.” - “Failure is not the opposite of victory, it is the tuition you pay for intuition.” #### Links - **[Jon Fitch Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/jonfitchsmash/)** - **[JonFitch.net](https://www.JonFitch.net)** - Books *Failing Upward*, *Death by Ego* and *The Weight-Cut Bible* - **[MMA Fighters Association](https://mmafa.tv/)** ## Jon Fitch Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Jon, how are you today, mate? **Jon Fitch:** I'm good man. I'm doing pretty good, sunny day out here in California. **Sonny:** That's what we like, mate. **Jon:** I'll probably get a lift. I'm going to move some stuff out into my regular yard area, in between the garage and the house. I think I want to get a little solar workout in with some tan going while- **Sonny:** Get that vitamin D. **Jon:** \[crosstalk\] beach muscle workout. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Good stuff. Today, I just want to ask you a couple of things about your career, your training, training style, smash system, and really get into some of those details. I would like to start things off just, obviously, with your wrestling career. In Australia, the wrestling isn't that much of an option for people to be able to go into. I was just wondering how that started for you, getting into wrestling and if you had any idea if you'd be doing it for as long as you have been. **Jon:** I was a huge pro wrestling fan when I was really little. Everything for me was pro wrestling and professional football. That's the only things I really was interested in, other than He-Man and G.I. Joe, and all of that stuff. I always thought I was going to be a professional football player, but then I found wrestling because I had- it was a second cousin. It was a kid of my dad's cousin, his older brother wrestled in high school, and he would tell me stories about the wrestling matches at school all the time. It sounded like what I was watching with Hulk Hogan and Junkyard Dog, and all those guys. I thought it was amazing because he's a good storyteller. I was only at the fourth grade. I was intrigued. Went to a Catholic school and buses would come, you could go and get on a bus, and then ride the bus to the high school because that's how they would stop around different places and drop the kids off. I believe I wouldn't ask for anything, I just would get on the bus and we'd ride to this high school, junior high. I'd go to the junior high practices, started it in the fourth grade. We had this coach, Sonny, he would let young kids come in. He wouldn't say anything. He would take us to tournaments. I was in the fourth grade and wrestling in a junior high tournament. I was also on the eighth graders. He would just lie about our age, and he would get us matches. It wasn't really that much about records or whatever at that time. He just made wrestling super fun. My focus was football, but then in the off-season, I had wrestling because it was just so much fun. Wrestling was my backup sport until my senior year. After football season, I was like, "Oh, well, it doesn't look like I'm getting a scholarship. It doesn't look like I'm going to a big school." I wasn't really that fast. I was probably 30 pounds too light for the position I would have played, so a little bit too short. I was like, "Well, let's focus this year, the senior year on wrestling, and then try to get that into a scholarship, something wrestling in college". I had a good high school career, a good high school season, senior season, that year. There's not a lot of money in wrestling. I didn't get a scholarship. I ended up going and walking on to Purdue because I wanted to challenge myself and wrestle the big 10 schools. I was in the big 10, and all these other big schools are in the big 10. I couldn't really afford to just go out to Iowa or go to school out of state, so I went to Purdue. I didn't like IU at the time. I just ended up going to Purdue and wrestled there. **Sonny:** Nice. I got to ask what's IU, actually? Is that another university? **Jon:** Indiana University. They're the rival schools. **Sonny:** The rival school, got you. That makes sense. Why not then? You went to university it was to study physical education, is that-? **Jon:** Yes. I initially went because I wanted to do history and PE was the minor, because you did majors and minors back then. Then I was getting a two-point-eight one semester and history requirements are at three-point-oh. They're like, "Oh, well, you're going to lose eligibility because we don't know if you're going to raise your grades enough to be eligible." I just flip-flopped my major, minor because the requirements for PE was a two-point-five. The degree was pretty much the same, and the classes were pretty much the same. You could still get the same job. **Sonny:** I did PE at university as well. I guess, if they're making it a bit easier for them what they say, "Those who can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, teach PE." It's brutal. **Jon:** My thing was I went to college because I wanted to wrestle. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with myself. I didn't know there was that many options of career paths. I was fixated on playing professional football. I didn't even think for a second I wasn't going to make it. **Sonny:** How did you transition? You're in that situation, how did you go to being a fighter? How did you start MMA? How did that transition take place? **Jon:** Success has a lot to do with hard work, but it has a lot to do with luck, too. I went to Purdue University where Tom Erikson was an assistant wrestling coach. He was a heavyweight for the United States as number two for 13 years under Bruce Baumgartner. He fought Brazil a couple of times, he's knocked out Randleman a long time ago, he's fought Bustamante, he fought Goodridge at Pride, fight a number of times. He fought Shannon "The Cannon" Briggs in K-1. **Sonny:** I think he's still going. **Jon:** Yes, sure. Him and Tyson are supposed to have some local fight. We'll see. I just got lucky because Tom was there. I had watched fights and some pancreas and some other things. It was interesting. I never really--There was no outlet to go and try it. There wasn't jujitsu around. There wasn't a Muay Thai school. There's cheesy McDojos, karate schools, and taekwondo schools. It was just something like, "Oh, that would be cool, maybe." I didn't really put any thought or effort into it. When Tom started bringing guys like Gary Goodridge, and Mark Coleman, and Ian Freeman came in the town once. He would bring guys in to train. Then I would just watch them and work out with them sometimes because it was a different alternate workout that was interesting. Then I wouldn't do that bad with bigger guys. I was like, "Oh, maybe I could do this. This is interesting." Then they're talking about the money they're making and the girls, the gangsters, the travel. It sounded amazing. **Sonny:** That probably appeals to every young man, who can blame them? **Jon:** Getting an envelope full of cash. I will pull a hundred dollar bills because you put on a good performance. There's just all kinds of stories. Stories like guys getting tricked into smuggling drugs, guys get in fights and pull knives in the parking lots on the way. This is the wild west of MMA too, back then. Some wild stories, dude. **Sonny:** I want to hear a couple of those stories for sure. How do you tell your parents that, "Hey, I'm dropping out of school. Mom-"? **Jon:** I didn't drop out, I graduated end of year. That's \[crosstalk\] . **Sonny:** I'm sorry, my correction. "I'm not going to pursue a career in teaching, Mom, instead I'm going to become a professional fighter." How do you have that conversation? **Jon:** I didn't for three years. I fought for three years and they didn't know. Then after the last fight, the trip before I came back to tell them, it was right before I signed my first UFC fight. It was that summer I went home to see them. I was going to tell them because I had just had a fight, but one of my knucklehead cousins said something about it. They saw it online at somebody's wedding, funeral, or something. My parents found my-- I had a website. \[laughter\] **Jon:** They tell them I had a website. They found my website and then they sent me a personal training or request. **Sonny:** I think you have worked the best to get a personal trainer, to get a session, to get a private. **Jon:** I was like, "Oh, what? Oh, they got me". **Sonny:** I guess if you're going into the UFC that was \[crosstalk\] project. **Jon:** That was when they had found out on. They had an idea because, before that fight, I almost got into the Ultimate Fighter, so I had to let them know that, "Hey, I'm nowhere training, and then they're pudding all those reality show." That was before they didn't tell anybody that they're going to fight on the show. **Sonny:** Okay. The other first one, right? **Jon:** The first one. Yes, that was like, "Surprise, you're going to fight for free". **Sonny:** That's why I'd like to get into that and, I guess, those early days of American Kickboxing Academy then. Because I know that first show was big for you guys there, and if we could start, I guess, with how you found AKA? And how that all began? There’s a book. **Jon:** I got this book. Failing Upward/Death by Ego. A lot of all that stuff is in here. Because it's that early development of the gym and you're going to read my actual journal entries from that time, and the stuff I was thinking about while it happened. Then I read reflections with my perspective now, with everything I've seen and been through. It's fun to see and for me, to go back and read about because seeing how our workouts evolved, the team evolved, it really was- It wasn't like there was anyone person who was responsible for AKA. Javier had the location and he had some skills of footwork and power, and then he had guys with wrestling, discipline, and cardio. You had kickboxers, you had a blend of guys from all over the place who were all adding a little bit of something and help form and shape AKA for what it is today. **Sonny:** That first Ultimate Fighter where you were selected, then they called you and you said, "No, we're good", how did you overcome that? You must have been disappointed, right? **Jon:** Yes, I was disappointed because I knew- and you can read it in there, there's that in that book too, me going into that. You'll see I was super disappointed because I knew it was going to be big. I knew there's no way it wasn't going to be and I was just like, "Damn, that was a huge opportunity that I missed out on." I doubled down with training and I was lucky the Wednesday that I was supposed to leave, they told me not to get on the plane and my management had a fight for me that Saturday, so I didn't have to wait any time or stew in my anger or whatever. I went down to fight, I got a W right away and then I was just like, "Whatever I don't need them. I'll focus on my own stuff". **Sonny:** That's got to help, just being able to get back onto it and keep- **Jon:** Yes. Get back to work, get to a fight, get to win and then you launch yourself into whatever the next thing is. It was going through relationships, get on to the next one and the next. **Sonny:** Tough times \[laughs\] . **Jon:** Just get to the next one. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Now you've gone through the UFC, you've had a long career 40-odd fights, still going. I'm wondering, how does someone like you from those early days make their career? How do you have that longevity in your career that a lot of people started later than you and have finished earlier than you? **Jon:** I think diet nutrition helped a lot. I think [training smart](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) and listening to my body, not just beating the crap out of ourselves. Making sure that I train to win the fight, I train to peak on fight night. I think, discipline. I have to owe all my success to discipline because I'm not naturally like gifted, I'm not a super-fast, I'm not super strong, I'm not really flexible, my technique is pretty good. I'm a technician, I think my way through things and I think just the discipline, my stubbornness, and my way I can calculate things. I think there's something to be said about pattern recognition. I think when it comes to this I have a lot of that. I think it's just that I understand the body and how it moves, and I can read where it's going sometimes. **Sonny:** That's pattern recognition massive. Is there any way that you consciously developed that pattern recognition for you in your fights? **Jon:** I think that I owe a lot of my success to visualization, I would say, because I can be obsessively compulsive about thinking about a specific topic, a specific sequence of techniques. That can be a really great thing but again, also it's a two-sided sword. I can also get stuck just sitting and staring thinking about something stupid for a long time, but at the same time I catch myself, it's almost like I get sucked into a vortex and into spit out into another dimension where I'm living that life in that dimension. If I'm honed that into visual training, walking through the fight, walking through the tunnel, walking through getting my hands wrapped, the conversations, if I can recreate that in my head, that's a big benefit. It can be a slippery slope because if you go down the wrong way, then you're thinking about throwing shit all day. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. I think everyone's probably been there once or twice in their lives. Is that something that you had as a child? Were you always like that? Or was it something you developed as a professional athlete? **Jon:** I think that I've always had it as a kid. I have a couple of boys now and my younger one, I think has that too or he can just sit quietly and play by himself for a long time. Before I came down here, me and the older boy were playing the LEGOs for 40 minutes, and the other ones in the kitchen by himself just playing. He's probably got a little bit of that too. I think I've also developed it over the years. Realizing that your mind is your mind and so if your mind's going crazy, your mind is thinking whatever, you're the one that has the power to stop it and make it think something different. **Sonny:** Yes. That's a massive power that if people can get control of they can change their thinking, they can change their lives. Is- **Jon:** If you follow my Instagram, I have a big poster in my garage, it says, "It's your fault", so I can always remind myself because it doesn't matter what happens to you in your life. You could be robbed and attacked but still the way you feel about it, the way you deal with it, the way you handle the situation afterwards, that's on you. **Sonny:** Yes. I'm with you on that for sure, accepting responsibility of, "Hey, you're the one who's got to fix it. You're the one who's got to change it, it's your fault". **Jon:** You're the one who has to get over it. You’re the one that has to heal. No one else is going to do a for you or take any of that away from you. Nobody's coming to save you. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear you on that. What I found though is sometimes, like now, if you showed someone that poster, they'd be like, "Oh, that's not very positive." It's the power of positive thinking, "Hey, why are you saying negative?" How would you respond to someone like that? **Jon:** I'd rather have the power of rational thought. I like the power of rational thought over, "My feelings are hurt all the time." It's a rational way of explaining it, and I can use that anytime that I'm upset, or get angry, or feel like somebody wronged me. It's an easy fallback, like, "Well, you being angry about this right now, that's on you." It doesn't change anything, it's not going to change the situation. It just makes you feel a little shittier, it raises your cortisone levels, your testosterone drops, and then it's just a spiral downward. Then your black pilled, MGTOW guy went and bought everything, "It's not fair. Life is not fair", like, "No, it's not. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That's going to dark places. But that's just- it's- **Jon:** Yes, it's not. Life's not fair. I told you, it's just an acceptance of life's not fair. Life is full of suffering. It's awful, it's terrible. So many bad things happen throughout your lifetime or the other people, it sucks. One of my friends died recently from brain cancer, I have another one who's going through his third session of brain cancer. I don't know, it's a dark place but once you can accept that and understand that, there's still a lot of beauty and the fact that you get to experience life and you get experience loss, I think it may make things easier to absorb. **Sonny:** Yes, I agree with you on that. Do you think that obsessively, positive people-? although I think people have a hard time actually staying that overly positive all the time. Do you think maybe that's one end of the spectrum, that, "Hey, you've got to be positive all the time, never say anything negative" has fostered that other darker end of the spectrum that it's ruining things up? **Jon:** That's the thing, it doesn't have to be about happy or whatever, it's just a stoic acceptance of is. This just is, it's not good or bad, whatever. The way I respond to it, that's on me. This just is, this thing just happened. I can cry about it, I can do whatever, or I can move forward. If I can't change it, accepting the fact I have no power over it. That's spilled milk. I spilled the milk; do I sit and cry about it and feel upset about it? Or I'm like, "Oh, well, this thing happened, I can leave it there and it'll get smelly and sticky or I can take care of it and clean it up before it gets smelly, and sticky, and get ants"? **Sonny:** I'm a big fan of stoicism. What I'm wondering, I guess, is then for your coaching, and maybe with visualization as well, is that something that you'll coach your fighters to do? Will you try to get them to sit down, and visualize, and be stoic about things? **Jon:** I will try to get them to separate because even in the fight you can't be emotional. There's this balance where you have to fight with feeling like Bruce Lee, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Jon:** You can't be emotional, you have to have purpose behind your actions, but at the same time you can't have anger or that emotion behind it. **Sonny:** I like that. I guess looking for that balance, one thing with you is I know that you play the ukulele, which, of course, professional cage fighter ukulele people may not think goes hand in hand. How do you find that connection there between the softer side of ukulele and cage fighting? Do you think there's a link between them beyond just being arts? Between [music and martial](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/) arts? **Jon:** I think there's a great connection between just brain health and fine motor movement and music. I think that's one of the reasons why I like ukelele, is because I want to keep my brain healthy. Two is I used to play a lot of video games, a lot of video games, eight hours a day video games. On the weekday in between training. Then I had kids and I realized that I was wasting a lot of time doing nothing, and I wasn't getting anywhere, so I replaced my video game time with reading and ukulele. Now it was something that I was learning, something I was benefiting from, and then it was a chance for me to have music in my kid's life. Now, they could grow up and listen to songs, another day I'd play some instrument. We wrote a song together called The Dinosaur Song, it's pretty good. **Sonny:** We got to check that out. **Jon:** It's on somewhere on YouTube. I need to redo it because I didn't sing very well. The Dinosaur Song it's pretty good song, I did a really good job writing it. Then I'm real about this idea of creating, or starting, or being a part of a new masculine Renaissance. I think we have an issue with men not really knowing how to be good at being men these days. A lot of masculinity is villainized, you have a lot of young men who don't have positive male role models or role models that are men around. They don't get to see what positive masculinity looks like. I don't know, I think being able to sing, dance, play music, fight in a cage, shoot a gun, change your oil, it's man shit. There was a time when the manliest men painted. **Sonny:** Yes. **Jon:** Let's get back to that, we can do it all. **Sonny:** I'm with you on that, having a full range of skill sets as a person, they should be never seen as a negative just broadening your avenues of experience. Can you expand on that a bit for me about what things you think should change, how you would go about doing that? **Jon:** You can't force anything. I think I'm trying to put together a masculinity mastery program. Or at least a group where guys can share space and talk about shit they didn't get taught because they didn't have a dad or somebody around, or they had an effeminate dad. Things that don't get covered by a lot of people, things that even I took years to learn. I think that would be a good start, just creating spaces that men have. Because women have infiltrated everything, there's no space for just dudes. Boy Scouts of America now have girls in it, but there's plenty of space where it's just women, but men are not allowed to congregate alone. **Sonny:** Obviously, probably the biggest thing or negative when talking about those men's issues would be the rates of suicide with men, right? That's a huge thing, and depression, and you talk about \[crosstalk\] **Jon:** I would say that a lot of those depression and suicide cases are biological because the men have low testosterone and they don't realize it. They go to a psychiatrist, and they put them on a bunch of drugs, and the psychiatrist never says, "Hey, go get your T levels checked." Low testosterone levels will make you fucking sad, will make you a sad little whiny girl. If you are struggling with depression the first thing you should do is go get your T levels checked and then start lifting weights. **Sonny:** Nothing wrong with getting down and lifting some weights, that's for sure. **Jon:** Lifting weights, resistance training is one of the best things for your health overall. It'll raise your mood, it'll raise T levels, and it has a lot of long-term health benefits. In a short period of time you see benefit, two weeks of resistance training you'll see benefits. **Sonny:** For sure, I think it's like resistance training, sleep, vitamin D, those are the things that can help. **Jon:** High-intensity cardio. **Sonny:** To open up that space for men to be able to talk about things that I guess are commonly seen as being weak, that's stereotypical like, "Never talk about something bothering you", how do you do that? **Jon:** I feel there's a lot of brainwashing stuff about the stereotypical stuff. They push around a lot of the worst things that some of the worst maybe fathers said, "Don't talk about your-" It's not about not talking about your pain, and your suffering, and what you're going through, it's about time and place. There's a time and place. If you're in charge of a company, and you have a big meeting, and they're facing something and you're crying in the middle of a meeting, and these people are looking up to you for leadership, that is the time when you have to man up because you have a lot of people depending on you. You're going through shit, yes, but part of being a man is taking that shit and dealing with it, so everybody else doesn't suffer. You can have your time and place to deal with it, that's a part of that stoicism. I cry, there's times when I have to cry, but I'm not going to do it in front of my kids when I have to get shit done. Bad things happen. When you're a man you're supposed to be the leader, you're supposed to be looked up to as a leader. When shit goes down, the women and the children look to you to handle shit. It's not about not being sad and not crying, it's about time and place because people depend on you. If you falter, people may die. That's evolution of where we came, millions of years to get to this point. Men were responsible for keeping the women and the children alive. "Oh, my feelings are hurt. Somebody didn't return my call", or, "You didn't say hi. You missed my birthday." Those are things that hurt your feelings, and you can feel sad about, and you talk to the people who hurt you, but if that's getting in your way of living your life, and staying alive, and keeping people around you alive, that's not a good look. **Sonny:** I think I get you. Let me say if I've understood right, you're talking about I guess balancing that idea of stoicism and never expressing, or just accepting all the responsibility. **Jon:** It's not never expressing it, it's just knowing when to. **Sonny:** Creating a space where that's where you're going to express it and doing it in there. Then, outside of that, you're taking care of everything else and taking responsibility. **Jon:** Quite honestly, there were clubs and places where a man would be able to go and be alone, and that's when it happened. The second you add a woman to the environment everybody's attitude changes. Men would go out to battle for millions of years, they're fighting to the death to protect what's theirs. They come back home and they sit by the campfire, and they share their stories about what happened, and what they lost, and what they felt. They decompressed from the horror of the violence they just went through. The same thing happens when men go to war. They go out to war, they fight, they go through all the shit. It was around the Vietnam, is when we really started seeing bigger cases of PTSD. That was because they no longer had the decompression time. They went from killing somebody on Saturday to being at home in their living room on a Monday. In World War II, they took months to get home. They decompressed, they had a time to talk it out, and cry, and deal with stuff along their comrades who went through the same shit. Then, that ended and then you see **\[unintelligible 00:30:46\]** cases of soldiers committing suicide and PTSD. They don't have the same chance to decompress, and I don't think men get a chance to decompress in this society because there's no spaces where it's just men. **Sonny:** That's something I think is huge, that you're probably referring. Clubs like Freemasons is a worldwide one, we had other local clubs, Lions Club in Australia, I don't know if that's worldwide. But clubs like that, that it was just taken for granted that that's what men would go and meet. I know all their numbers are dropping down, membership numbers-wise. It seems like sports, especially maybe even fighting, people are coming into it to get that initiation, to get that feeling of acceptance and it's \[crosstalk\] **Jon:** In the tribe. **Sonny:** Yes, that initiation structure that has maybe been taken out of our society. **Jon:** We don't have any rites of passages in our society at all anymore. People don't move out of their parents' homes, so you don't even have the rite of passage of moving out. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear that. Do you think that people are looking sometimes at cage fighting as a way to get that rite of passage? **Jon:** Fighting is an art, it's an art form. I think people escape to art when they want to be distracted and pulled away from reality. It's not a fantasy, people want to live the fantasy in some way because real life is terrifying. If you can't accept how that it's terrifying and that you're lucky just to breathe and that it's going to end tragically one day, it's easier to live in the dream. **Sonny:** It's killing the boy, not living in the dream and getting after it. **Jon:** I think we've lost that. In a way, I didn't really become a man until I started having kids and started realizing all this shit I thought I knew was fucking garbage. It's just growing pants. **Sonny:** Sure. I think the idea of the positive masculine role model then that you have is having that balance of the lighter and hardest sides. For that, what would you be looking for then for the positive female role model that's not the negative stereotypes of the female? **Jon:** That's the thing. That's where a lot of people may disagree with me, but men's behavior is responsible for the women's behavior. If men are being lazy, childless slobs, how do you think the women are going to act? They're not going to step up to your-- You're lowering yourself. You want a woman to be better role models, you lead, that's the job of that man, is to lead. You'll be the role model. Women will step up to your level. If you make yourself high value and you lead a certain life, those women will start to adapt to the high-level men. The problem is we have a lot of soy-ish behavior among the males today. Because I go on dates and I do Bumble, and the Tinder, and whatever. I'll go on a lot of just one-time dates and I'll ask girls straight up what the market's like, what's like being out, what do they think of the guys. It's all the same type of stuff. They're all passive, they're all soy, they're effeminate, it's not looking good out here. They call this area, "Man Jose", because it's four guys to one girl out here, but if you're slightly masculine at all it's shooting fish in a barrel. If you've got a decent job, and you lift weights, you got a little bit of game, you got no problem out here. **Sonny:** If I've got this, understanding right, your advice or just your idea, maybe not advice, is just for men-? **Jon:** Don't worry about the girls. Make yourself the best version of yourself as possible that turns you into a magnet. You don't have to go looking for a needle in a haystack, the needle comes searching for you. **Sonny:** That makes sense. If you're working on yourself, trying to be the best person that you could be and trying to take yours-? **Jon:** Think, if The Rock was a single dude, you think he'd have a hard time looking for a girl? No, because he works out really hard, he's a hell of an actor. He hustles, dude hustles. Girls are going to flock to him. Make yourself a center of attention, make yourself something to flock to. You have to build a life that people want to be around. **Sonny:** Obviously, it should be everyone's goal. Build a good life, build yourself in life. **Jon:** Yes, there's a lot of the positive mindset people who are like, "Oh, you're just good enough the way you are." That's a dangerous trap to me. "Oh, you're just good enough. You're perfect just the way you are." The same thing with body positivity, you're telling people that they're fine when they're unhealthy. They could get diabetes, or cancer, or something, a heart disease. It's mean almost. I don't know. Are you really being that nice? You're causing more damage than you're stoping. **Sonny:** It's a combination then of having that acceptance of being responsible for everything in your life, but also not just accepting a lower level of standards for yourself or-? **Jon:** For a long time throughout human history the goal was to always be improving, always be bettering yourself, always do more, be better, where I feel like in recent years, last 20 years or so, it's just like, "I'm good enough. Gimme, gimme, gimme". **Sonny:** That trying of bettering yourself and becoming the best person you could be, how do you think that taking it back to martial arts is? Is that the best vehicle they got to do it? **Jon:** That's the whole purpose, that's the whole purpose of martial arts, isn't it? It's self-betterment. It's not just about fighting people, it's about being better to your family, being better to your loved ones, being better to strangers, being better to earth and things around you, I think. When I first got into fighting, it was about I wanted to do the crazy stuff and I wanted the money, but then I think I went to Japan the first time, I started reading about Buddhism and I read this book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. By the time I moved to California, I had already started moving towards the path rather than the party. **Sonny:** That's a huge thing in that book. I remember it's just talking about that idea of quality and just- \[crosstalk\] **Jon:** Yes, I got that from that book. Writing that book helped me fall back in love with training, and the fighting, and all that stuff again because I channeled myself back into that mindset, I was like, "Yes, man, I forgot about the quality." I became obsessed with the UFC title. I felt like for a long time that my only chance of success or any type of success was tied to that title. That made me train hard and win a lot of fights, but at the same time, it almost destroyed me. **Sonny:** The great example, I guess, in that book as well, I remember when he's going on a hiking trip with his son and they're talking about when you're going to reach the top of the mountain and then there's- It's a big lesson. **Jon:** Well, he spent time in Tibet, I think, and he was walking up to the mountain with some monks. He kept complaining about the trip. "Are we at the top yet? Are we at the top yet?" Rather than just looking at the rocks, and looking at the trees, and smell in the air and enjoying himself, he's worried about getting to the end. That can ruin it. **Sonny:** Yes, all about enjoying the journey. You've got a great documentary. It's such great heights that follows that path for you up to your title fight with GSP. Can you explain that process? Did you have that feeling as you were going through it or was that something that you discovered off after that fight? Because that's got to be a massive moment. **Jon:** Man, no, that was just the accumulation of all the hard work and following the path. I think a lot of the things that went around, that whole fight made me sniff the gold, I started coming down a little bit with the belts are becoming a little bit of the precious around that time. They don't know if you're going to win, so they start buttering you up because any watch the company man so you got to- I have special dinners and your plane seats are a little bit better now, your hotel room's a little bit better now. There's little perks that come along and they let you know, "Hey, we can do this. You don't have to be with the rest of the slobs on the first floor", or whatever \[chuckles\] . I think they may have do it on purpose, man, because you're hooked. They use you hooked to that, like, "Hey, look what we can do for you if you're a company man type of thing". **Sonny:** Yes, okay. That was something that, I guess- maybe a little known for as ending up resisting that? **Jon:** Yes. Because some dumb sportsman are hard. I wanted to be a true sport, I don't want to get by on anything because of outside things. I didn't want to be charismatic and get fights. I just wanted to win and do it that way. I wanted it to be a sportsman. That was one of the things too because I could feel what they were doing. It was like, "Oh, this is what it's like." The money and the respect, and whatever, is nice but at the same time, this is sleazy and slimy, I didn't really like it. \[chuckles\] I don't take the buy-out for it. **Sonny:** I remember the time, I think it was even Dana White, there was a common criticism that your fighting start wasn't exciting enough but- **Jon:** That was a manufactured criticism because no one had ever said that until before my second fight with Thiago. That was the fight that I'd started getting pushed around. When they really started pushing me, "Winning doesn't matter, only excitement matters." They really started pushing the entertainment narrative over the sport narrative, at least towards the public. **Sonny:** It's a testament though your longevity to have- maybe you've made the right decision in terms of longevity of your career. **Jon:** I would've made a lot more money if I just would've said, "Okay, boss. Whatever you say." Which a lot of guys do. **Sonny:** Yes. That was the famous example of when you turned down the lifetime licensing rights for the video games. Which I think if you explain that to anyone rationally, of, "Hey, do you want to give a company the right to use your-?" **Jon:** Image and likeness forever for no money. **Sonny:** It was probably the contract that was probably for the universe, the end of time, five billion years, or something like that. **Jon:** Yes, it was lifetime, as long as they wanted it, it was theirs, that and the merchandising you get. If I die, they could still use it and not pay my family. I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" I think it's a tragedy alone that the promotions are allowed to keep all of the pictures and all the videos of the fights. That's part yours as a fighter. You should be allowed, at least some access to that, to create your own promotional content. **Sonny:** Yes, that should be standard in contracts. **Jon:** We don't get any kind of say in anything, it's take-it-or-leave-it. The managers are just brokers, there's no real agencies. **Sonny:** That's a shame, maybe we'll get into that. What do you think about the sport then? It's definitely become more entertainment. **Jon:** It is. It's pro wrestling. They also catered to a pro wrestling fanbase. There's almost a hundred percent crossover between WWE fans and UFC fans, but there's no crossover between boxing fans and UFC fans. Boxing fans don't watch any of it all. **Sonny:** What do you think is the difference then in the fans? **Jon:** I think they created this pro wrestling fanbase because that's what they're used to seeing. They wanted to see they control the titles, they want to see the forced match-ups. They like it, it's pro wrestling. This is basically the offer-it-all, the WWE did a tough man type competition, that's basically what happened. The Fertittas probably watched that and said, "Oh, that's what we could do to this." It's their exhibitions, the titles are promotional titles, they're not world titles. It's a show, they're putting on a show and they're selling it as a sport which is a problem because the Athletic Commissions are involved. There needs to be sanctioned by the controls titles. It just has to happen, there has to be a separation of power. We can't allow them to exploit fighters like this anymore. **Sonny:** Yes. You mentioned the Brawl for All, actually, there's a great show on that, I watched recently called Dark Side of the Ring. Have you seen that? **Jon:** I did watch along with my friend Kris Tinkle. We did a Fitch & Tinkle SMASH Everything, we have a podcast and we did a watch along. We watched that and we did a podcast over it while we were viewing it, so people can cue it up and watch as we are watching it and comment direct. Have you watched the New Jack one? **Sonny:** Yes, that's fascinating. What a guy. **Jon:** It's terrorizing. We watched that one too. He did out-threat me accordingly to what that was about. But, oh my goodness, if you guys have not watched that, that is-- **Sonny:** Yes, I don't want to spoil it because that's- \[chuckles\] there's a lot of guys wowed. He is wow. **Jon:** They got them. They're taking advantage of a situation too, men. Just taking the things he would say to the crowds to get them riled up, oh my goodness. **Sonny:** That's right. You got to remember there are some bad and scary people out there \[chuckles\] . **Jon:** Excuse me, scary people. I think he was charismatic. He has three- what do you call it? Three justifiable homicides \[laughs\] . **Sonny:** Scary. **Jon:** He's also a bounty hunter. Three justifiable homicides, that's wow. **Sonny:** They've got some great stories in there. Let's say if there was a Dark side of the Ring of UFC, what would the story be that you would know, that you would tell for that? **Jon:** My dark side of the octagon story would be the story of how SEG was in position to get MMA regulated by the State of Nevada and when they would've done that, they would've been successful, made money, and they'd never would've had to sell the property or sell the OC. For some strange reason, the Nevada Athletic Commission voted no, and nobody could figure out why. Shortly after that, the Fertittas bought UFC under Zuffa for two million. Do you know who is on the Athletic Commission at the time of the vote? **Sonny:** I don't. **Jon:** Fertitta. **Sonny:** There you go. **Jon:** One of Fertitta voted no, quit the Commission, turned around and after they cut the legs out of one of the UFC there, there was no way they were going to get regulated by any other state, and they had no way to make money, so they had no other choice. The Fertittas defunded, they cut the legs off of the SEG UFC so that they could buy it at a cheap two million dollars. **Sonny:** Okay. My understanding that the Fertittas feels like, maybe, a mafia involvement element of- **Jon:** There's cronyism. This goes deeper. Next, there's around 2000, '2000s when the Ali Act passed. Senator John McCain was having that, he's pushing that in to get that passed. He wanted to also put MMA on it because he was upset about MMA and he called it cockfighting and he was going to force them onto the same bill. But then one day, he just stopped talking about it. It just so happens that he is also constituents or colleagues who work very close with Harry Reid. Do you know who Harry Reid is? **Sonny:** I don't. **Jon:** He's a senator or governor from Nevada. They worked, voted, and did a lot of stuff together. Harry Reid is good friends with Fertitta's father, **\[unintelligible 00:49:13\]** Fertitta's father, senior. **Sonny:** There's that connection. **Jon:** There's a, "Hey buddy", connection between all of them. **Sonny:** Now there's another source of something big with them and the Culinary Workers Union or-? **Jon:** That's just the Culinary Union. They've been trying to unionize their hotel for a really long time. Most of Vegas is unionized. If you sponsor it or not, the Fertitta's hotel is not. They tried a lot of tactics to try to do it, including manipulating the Mixed Martial Arts Fighters Association and some other UFC fighters. Trying to get them to sign up and unionized under the UFC, because they're trying to damage them to gain leverage with what they're doing. We stopped working with them because we don't like how they're operating. **Sonny:** The idea of a union and a fighters union, I know you've got the antitrust lawsuit, I believe, going on. **Jon:** We are awaiting a decision from the judge. We had a pretty evidentiary hearing back in August. The judge listen to UFC's experts who listen to our experts. He has a year from that time to write a decision on it. I think there's two things relating to the decision. One of them is class certification, that's the important one. A class certification, we're going to trial. **Sonny:** Are you then hoping to develop a fighters union or for a fighters union to come out of this? **Jon:** We have Mixed Martial Arts Association that has been around for over 10 years. We're here, fighters just need to sign on the dotted line and we can move forward. But people are scaredy cats, I guess. They're okay, these fighters are okay. With the UFC, their estimated made like $45 million on pay per view on Saturday. 45 million and they paid the fighters 3.5 million. **Sonny:** Crazy. **Jon:** 12% split by all those fighters. You're kidding, right? The fact that those guys, Justin Gaethje and Tony were making five to $15 million for that fight, that is insulting. **Sonny:** What would you say then to the idea then of a fighters union or just a union in general? **Jon:** You can't do a union. A union is in one organization, one owner. That means you have no leverage. You need an association like SAG, Screen Actors Guild, so you can look at the promoters like production companies like Fox, or Pixar, or whatever, those production companies. The actors can all be under the same roof of an association that way, you can do insurance and all that stuff. That way, you don't have to worry about losing your union stuff because you lost your job at one promotion, we're all under one umbrella, we need to set an industry-wide standard. That's the best way to do it. **Sonny:** That makes sense. Maybe finishing up, to get people to jump on board with that to join the association, what would you say to fighters who might be reluctant to be looking at things like getting a larger revenue split, distributing income to the fighters, when that idea to a lot of people might be seen as soil, socialism or something like that? **Jon:** No, it's a free market because right now the way I look at it is the MMA market is communism, it's communist. You have one oligarch who takes up, sucks up all the money and it redistributes it as they see fit. It's not decided by the market. If you wanted a free market, the fighters should be able to, when they win a title, let them be free agents. You need cross-promotions, so fighters can fight other fighters from different promotions to get their titles. The [titles need other titles with their rankings](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/). The rankings need to be independently done worldwide. Fighters need to be able to keep their ranking regardless of what promoter they fight for. I was ninth in the UFC when they cut me, I went to zero when I was released. Your notoriety is tied to a lot of these things. It's not a production, it's a sport, it needs to be around like a sport. **Sonny:** You're thinking-? **Jon:** They are putting restrictions on a market, that's what I'm saying. Ben Askren fighting for ONE FC should have been able to fight because he was undefeated champion, he was number one in the world contender, he should have been able to fight whoever was the champ at the time in the UFC, but he was restricted as an independent contractor. As an independent business, as a sole business, he was restricted from doing business because of the UFC's business model, that is on American. **Sonny:** Yes, I think I have heard it described as monopsony? **Jon:** They use monopsony .That's making people wear uniforms and basically treating them like an employee, even though they're independent contractors. **Sonny:** Basically, if it was a free market in your mind, if it was just pure capitalism, your workers would be getting more and you'd have more rights. Is that what you're saying? **Jon:** You'd have more opportunities to fight, you'd have more promotion, you'd have more promoters have more money coming into the market to compete. One of the big things with the UFC's businesses, it's almost impossible to get into the market. You saw affliction and some other people years ago with big money. Billionaires who wanted to get into the market and start their promotion, but they realized that they can't compete because all the contracts are already monopolized, all the top contracts are monopolized by the UFC. They have 90% of the top 10 guys in every weight class. You're not going to be able to have enough notoriety to pull people's eyeballs in to start a new business. That's a limitation on the market also, that's illegal. Anybody should have the right to open a business and compete, but you can't compete because of the illegal contracts that the UFC uses. **Sonny:** If that was all, your lawsuit can change that then, right? **Jon:** Possibly. After we win, then they would have to change their business model or some other group of fighters could sue them again. **Sonny:** That's going to be a very interesting thing to pay attention to into the future and see what evolves from that. I guess my last question here today, I really appreciate the time that you've given me, is, what advice then would you give to a fighter just getting into the game? Maybe then in dealing with that business side of things. **Jon:** I wrote a blog, Five Things a Beginning Fighter Should Know. You got to jump my channel and check that out, I got a blog there. Sign up for the newsletter, it came out in the newsletter first and now it's up on the website for the own blog. But the one of number of things I say in there the most important thing to do right now is you have to promote yourself. Promoters are not promoting you anymore. They are going to take a guy who already has a certain level of notoriety and they're going to squeeze the juice out of them. They're going to check a pre-juiced, they're not going to grow the orange or whatever. They're going to find a ripe one, pick it and squeeze it. You've got to build your own notoriety. You got through social media, email lists, videos, YouTube, podcasts. It sucks, but that's what you have to do now. You have to get your own sponsors. You're going to build your own affiliate sales, all that type of stuff. You need outside funding besides the promoter because that's going to have to pay for your training and you're not going to be able to just live from fight to fight. That's my big thing, is self-promotion. Y, you have to build your social media, you just have to. It's necessary. If you can't afford somebody to do it for you, you're going to have to do it yourself, have some type of app or some kind of thing that lets you post or set pre-set posts. You just have to do it, you have to figure out a way to use the market to sell yourself. Because if you have 200,000 Instagram followers, guess what? You're going to get a hell of a lot bigger fight contract. You're going to get a lot more exposure. You're a big fat juicy orange when you got that type of credit. They're going to come squeeze you up. Otherwise, they're not going bother with you. There are promoters out there right now that will require fighters to have a certain follower account on social media just to get in the fight. **Sonny:** Which is wild to think about, but probably all that stuff now I guess it's a good skill for anyone in any industry to get a handle of because that's just the world \[crosstalk\] **Jon:** Just the way it's going, yes. Everything's going online. **Sonny:** No one's looking up the Yellow Pages anymore. Unfortunately, sorry, Mr. Yellow Pages, but you're going \[laughs\] . I'd love to have you back in the future, maybe just talk social media promoting, that'd be interesting. **Jon:** I'm still trying to figure it out, but yes. **Sonny:** Me too, mate, me too. It's all a process. What was the title of your book again? **Jon:** I have Failing Upward/Death by Ego, that's my journals and stuff, the beginning days. Then I have The Weight Cut Bible, for anybody in a weight class sport, but also, if you just do the meal plan stuff, if you don't do the weight cut part, you're going to get jacked and be ripped. It's good for you. **Sonny:** That's what I'm doing with the social media at the moment, filing and let's just hope it goes upward. You know what I'm saying? Let's just keep going up. **Jon:** It's keep going. It's like playing a video game. You play the first time, the monster kills you, but then you learn the pattern, you figure it out, you beat it, and you get to the next level. That's what you should be focusing on doing with your life. Don't get frustrated and smash the console because you died the first time. **Sonny:** That's it, I love that. One last thing, I've got a text here from a [Brian Ebersole](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-mindset-abstract-thinking-wrestling/ "Brian Ebersole on Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling"). **Jon:** Yes, Ebersole. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] And he says, "Do you remember who has your Chappelle show DVD?" **Jon:** Does he still have my Chappelle show DVD? Man, he's going to sell that on eBay. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I think he said he's lost it, and he's very sorry about that. **Jon:** No worries. **Sonny:** Is there a message I pass along to Brian? **Jon:** That's funny. No, I love Brian, he's awesome. He was basically my first manager because Tom Erickson set up my first fight and I went out by myself to the fights and I didn't have a corner, didn't wear a **\[unintelligible 01:00:41\]** cup. Just met Ebersole out there, talk to him, and then he fought somebody, I fought somebody, and we went out to bars and strip clubs afterwards. He was in Illinois, I was in Indiana Purdue, and were like two hours apart. He was the first person I got the train with that ever had any real MMA experience. He knew some of the Midwest circuit promoters, so he would call and see where the shows were and we'd drive out to Minnesota, or Iowa, or whatever. Jump into a show and it's good times **Sonny:** Happy guys. I'll pass that along. I've had a great chat, I really appreciate it, Jon, and people should check out the books, check out your podcast, Jon Fitch Knows Nothing, and your Instagram and your Roku as well, is that? **Jon:** Rock fan. Just go to jonfitch.net, everything I've got is on jonfitch.net. See the books, podcast, blogs, lots of stuff. **Sonny:** Excellent. Jon, thanks so much for your time. **Jon:** Thank you, it's good talking. ![Jon Fitch Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jonfitch_tsbb_promo.jpg "jonfitch_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Jeremy Horn Interview On Longevity Beyond MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-horn-interview-longevity-beyond-mma/) **Published:** July 20, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jeremy Horn MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jermey_horn_mma-1024x576.jpg "Jeremy Horn MMA › Sonny Brown")I talk to Jeremy Horn, a storied [MMA pioneer](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-lindland-interview-coaching-risk-wrestling/ "Matt Lindland Interview On Wrestling Between Risk-Taking & Risk-Aversion") and legend with over 170 fights to his name. He even fought on the weekend, where he was victorious in his professional boxing debut. He has fought a whos who of MMA greats, including Chael Sonnen, Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva, Forrest Griffin, Randy Couture, Dan Severn and [Frank Shamrock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/plus-minus-equals-system-shamrock-training/ "The Plus, Minus, Equals training system of Frank Shamrock") and many in every significant promotion of the sport, including UFC, Pride, Bellator, Pancrase, IFL & King of the Cage. We discuss the wild tale of his first fight in MMA, where he wasn't sure if he would make it out alive and how he has witnessed the sport change over the years. Also, his advice on training and sparring smart for career longevity, his time at the Militech Fighting Systems could be considered one of the first super camps of the sport. Finally, we discuss the benefits he has gained from living a martial arts lifestyle as he now continues to train upcoming martial artists at his gym [Jeremy Horns Elite Performance](https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100049126459911 "Jeremy Horns Elite Performance") in Utah. ## Listen to Jeremy Horn **Listen to The Episode**: - [Apple Podcasts](ps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-its-all-your-fault-failing-upwards-fighter-pay/id1476963733?i=1000479201627) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2jxbVk0QC95VkpCl8Aovwh?si=546fa7620f0048e5) ## YouTube ## Key Topics ### Warehouse beginnings and endless weekends Jeremy’s first bout took place in a dim Atlanta storehouse surrounded by spectators in evening dress. No cage, no referee, just mats, Taekwondo shields and bare light bulbs. The surreal experience removed nerves for every later contest and set the tone for fighting every weekend while earning just enough to avoid a day job. ### Rule evolution and the fading guard He charts the shift from near-anything-goes to today’s unified rules. Knees to a grounded opponent, hair control and downward elbows once made takedowns dangerous; banning them let wrestlers shoot freely and pushed strikers forward. Judges rewarding top control and frequent stand-ups have pushed the closed guard towards extinction. ### Sparring for longevity Horn argues that hard punching in the gym is rarely required. Proper training is “high-speed tag”: crisp technique, constant movement and minimal brain damage. One all-out session a month reminds athletes they can handle chaos; the rest should build skill, not scar tissue. ### Mindset: logic over emotion He treats a bout as a puzzle, not a brawl. If grappling control is achieved the opponent cannot throw; therefore emotion is wasted. Visualising outcomes, accepting risk and relying on concepts rather than moves kept him composed through 40-plus fights before his first meaningful loss. ### Culture, coaching and life beyond the cage From Miletich Fighting Systems to his own gym, Horn values openness, humour and service. He measures success by students who drop bad habits, gain confidence and build families, not by titles. Young pros should choose trustworthy managers, avoid quick-cash promises and remember that training remains worthwhile even without spotlight cheques. ## Key Takeaways - Longevity in MMA depends on managing damage and preparing for the fight rather than trying to win every gym round. - Jeremy’s career shows how quickly rules and tactics evolved during the early years of modern MMA. - Strong positional control can remain effective across very different rule sets. - Experience matters most when it improves judgement about when to fight, train hard and recover. ## Resources #### Quotes - “Win fast, win clean, then fight again next week.” - “If I tie up your arms it does not matter whether the rules allow punches.” - “Hard rounds are a spice, not a staple.” - “The sport moved away from reality the day knees to a downed opponent disappeared.” - “Find someone who will protect you from yourself when promoters come calling.” #### Links - [Jeremy Horn Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/jeremyhornmma/) - [Elite Performance Gym, Sandy UT](https://www.eliteperformancegym.com) - [Sherdog fighter record](https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jeremy-Horn-196) ## Jeremy Horn Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Jeremy, pleasure to have you here today, mate. Let's hope all is well over there in Utah. Looks very sunny in the background, I must say. **Jeremy Horn:** That's just a picture of my dog. **Sonny:** Beautiful. Jeremy, your career is obviously very extensive. You've got to have be one of the fighters with the most MMA fights under their belt. At all, I think it's 119. **Jeremy:** I've actually got in the neighborhood of 175. A lot of my earlier fights didn't get recorded. I was going to fight before the internet had a database so a lot of them slipped through the cracks. A lot of promoters didn't really record them themselves, they didn't submit them. **Sonny:** I can believe that 100% that that is what happened and probably pride of the Sherdog days. With such an extensive amount of fights that's so rare across the board of the entire sport, really, there's a handful of guys that I'm sure you probably fought as well who you're in that same category as yourself. One thing that's always just interests me is how is that even possible? How does someone take on that many fights and get that much experience over the course of their career because now it just seems like it could never happen again? **Jeremy:** Well, that's certainly part of it. For today, everybody is so much more well-trained and well-rounded and evenly matched even when fights are technically a lopsided fight, they're still way more evenly matched than somewhere back then. Add to that the fact that today everybody seems to be encouraged to stand up and throw punches. You're seeing a lot more damage with people, the rules affect that as well. Back in the day when I was fighting, I'd easily-- Dozens and dozens of fights where I could take the guy down and get on top of him and as soon as I started to throw a punch, he'd roll over and I'd choked him. The fight was over in a minute and a half, neither one of us took a single punch, we could both fight again an hour later if we felt like it. That's a big part of it. Then that's always been my mentality is, I want to win fights as fast as I can, as cleanly as I can and generally, that means taking people down and submitting them. It just causes less damage on both sides. **Sonny:** That's a good way to do it, \[crosstalk\] get a lot of fights by taking as little damage as possible. **Jeremy:** Exactly. That's how I like that. **Sonny:** When you first got into into fighting, what was it that drew you into it, and did you have any [martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) background? What were those first couple of steps like? **Jeremy:** I started martial arts when I was 12. My older brother had seen a demonstration at a local fair and so he joined and then not long after I joined. I just fell in love with martial arts right away. Like any kid, I grew up in the '80s and '90s so obviously, all the martial arts movies, the ninja movies, the John Claude Van Damme, Bloodsport movie. Those are movies I grew up on, so infatuated with martial arts. When the opportunity to fight rolled along it just seemed like something fun to do. What kid that does martial arts doesn't want to try it out. I had a couple of fights, turned out I was decent at it and I loved it so I just kept fighting. **Sonny:** I hear that we were listening to the Bloodsport soundtrack tonight at training, it's always a good one. When you had those first fights, did you know what you were getting into? **Jeremy:** No, not at all. In my first fight, I actually thought I was possibly entering into a snuff film. I thought we might have be going to be killed after the fight. In my first fight, I was living in Omaha at the time, in Nebraska, that's where I born and raised. They flew us down to Atlanta for the fights and they didn't pay us anything but they bought us a plane ticket, put us in a hotel and I think they gave us like $100 so we could get something to eat while we were down there. Me and a couple of my friends both fought. They show up the night of the fight with a limo which is odd. At this point, I don't even know how I'm going to fight. It was just, you guys are coming to fight, we'll have you a fight, be ready at five o'clock or whatever. They show up to pick us up, they drive us down into the dark after hours business area of Atlanta somewhere like a business district and we are in metal utility sheds and corrugated metal buildings and not a good area of town. They pull up and we are literally fighting in a warehouse. We walk in, they have some of those suede mats thrown down on the floor and there are people in tuxedos and evening gowns drinking champagne. There's only about 20 people watching. It was creepy like bear light bulb hanging from a chain in the roof, in the ceiling in the building that's what was lighting us. No cage, no boxing ring. They had a bunch of guys with those old school Taekwondo kicking shields, the curved ones you can hold. They had guys with a bunch of those running around the outside of the mat and if we got close to the edge, they would just body-check people back in to keep you inside. Then they got everybody lined up and then they're like okay, you guys are about the same size so you fight him and you fight him and you fight him. I thought they were going to do this and then take us out and kill us and throw us in the ditch. It was bad, \[chuckles\] but they obviously didn't so it ended up working out pretty well. It actually turned out to be the guys that did this show were the same ones that ended up promoting the MARS Show. I don't know if you remember that it was-- **Sonny:** Japanese show? **Jeremy:** It was martial arts reality super fighting. The main event was Murilo Bustamante against Tom Erikson. Do you remember that tournament? **Sonny:** Yes. **Jeremy:** It was those guys they were doing this. These fights were basically auditions to possibly get into the tournament. They were going all over and having everybody fight and then some of the people that fought got into the tournament. It was quite nerve-racking. After a start like that, it's only uphill. It can't get any worse after that. I'm like, oh, I actually am fighting in a cage in front of a crowd with a referee and people that know I'm here. It's much easier to deal with. **Sonny:** After that one then, were there any other unusual places that fights took place for you? **Jeremy:** Well, unusual, sure, but nothing like that severe. Obviously, as the sport was growing, a lot of fights in rodeo arenas, I had a couple of fights that were basically in some guy's backyard, that kind of thing. **Sonny:** Nothing to compare to the warehouse with the tuxedos? **Jeremy:** Yes, being flown to Atlanta and chauffeured to the fight in a limo and then you walk in. It literally was like a movie, we walk in and there's people in evening gowns and tuxedos. This is crazy. **Sonny:** That was so bizarre. What a way to get started on your journey. **Jeremy:** Definitely. **Sonny:** Couldn't ask for much more for sure. **Jeremy:** I had quite a few interesting beginnings in my career like that. I think that's part of the reason I really had an easy time with a lot of things that other people would struggle with. Just like when that's your first fight, it can't get worse. A lot of guys are going to their first fight and it's an amateur fight on a real MMA card and they're like, "Oh, I'm nervous." Did you think you were going to get murdered after you fought? \[laughter\] Definitely it's only up from there, I actually got a locker room? **Sonny:** What were some of those other interesting parts of those beginnings then for you that helped shape you? **Jeremy:** Another one was my first fight at the UFC. My first fight at the UFC, which normally is incredibly nerve-racking for everybody. That's a tough fight to get going, not only that but my first fight in UFC was Frank Shamrock. At the time, he's looked at as the greatest fighter on the planet, and I knew that I was pretty much being brought in as a sacrificial lamb. I didn't care that it was in the UFC. I'm like I'm fighting Shamrock, nobody thinks I'm going to win, nobody cares what happens, I'm lucky to be here. It's not like I got to win this fight, I got to make a good impression. Nobody expected that, so no stress there. Also, Frank Shamrock had just fought his last two fights were Kevin Jackson and Igor Zinoviev, both really, really tough fighters. He beat both of them in 30 seconds. Again, I'm like nobody's expecting anything at me but I knew that there's nobody that he's going to beat me in a minute. Those guys that are better than me but nobody's going to beat me in a minute. I can run for a minute. \[laughs\] When I go into that fight, I had zero expectations. Nobody expected me to win. Nobody cared if I won. It was just another opportunity for Frank to beat somebody up so all the stress is gone. There's no performance anxiety when nobody expects me to win. It makes it real easy, my first fight is out of the way. **Sonny:** I think that fight you're talking about he wasn't going to beat you in a minute, I think that flight went on 17, 18 minutes or something. **Jeremy:** Yes, I ended up winning the majority of the fight until I screwed up and got caught in a leg lock at the end of the fight. **Sonny:** That hints to the different changes in the rules of the sport that you would have been around for because, of course, that was not a 25-minute title fight- **Jeremy:** Right. Right. Sunny: -it was before those were happening. How did you see those evolution of rule changes happen from your side? **Jeremy:** I guess we could say that the rule changes have been necessary for the acceptance of the sport and to get it a little more understood by the general public but truthfully, I don't like a lot of them. As the sport gets further and further away from what a real fight actually is, it becomes more of just a game, it is just-- It's a sport, obviously, but it gets further away from reality. When they took away kicking and kneeing a downed opponent, that was big. When they take away hair pulling, **\[unintelligible 00:12:11\]** nobody- everybody shaved their head anymore anyway. Being able to control somebody by their hair is a big part of it, that helps a lot. Not being able to hit people in the back of their head, not being able to elbow people, the 12 to 6 elbow. All these little things make- they all add up to a big change. It used to be that if you were a grappler and you shot a double leg on somebody and they sprawled and you were stuck on all fours, you were in terrible danger, not anymore. You can shoot and stay on all fours and they can't really do much to you other than then punch you or try to spin your back, that obviously submissions. If you were on all fours and somebody had you in front headlock, you were going to get kneed in the head. That was a massive, massive change for the wrestlers, now, they can take a shot and if they miss, no big deal. **Sonny:** That's still one of the biggest weapons in Japanese MMA, to be able to-- those knees to the head from front headlock position is such a powerful weapon. **Jeremy:** Yes, it's huge. Or downward elbows when you're on top of somebody that-- They don't get used a lot but that's one thing that a lot of people don't understand is the threat of them being used is oftentimes enough to elicit the response you want. I'm training guys in the gym here, and guys are getting ready for a fight and I try to tell them, "You have to spar and you have to train with the mindset of would I do this in a real fight if my life was on the line, if the win was on the line." Because there is always another level of anxiety that you just can't get to until you're actually in a fight. We're grappling and we're rolling around and guys see they're doing well. Then we put those little MMA gloves on and say, "Okay, now I'm going to punch you in the face", and suddenly everything changes. Not a massive amount because we're still friends and you know that if I hit you, I'm not going to try to hit you hard. If I do hit you hard, I'm going to let up and I'm not going to try to put you away. Whereas in a fight that one more step, it really breaks a lot of people and it's just the threat of doing it. I don't have to throw a single punch but if I put on a glove, and you think, "Fuck, this guy, he might hit me. I got to do this, this, this and he might hit me." The same thing, now he's like "He might hit me and it might knock my teeth out." It changes things. I don't even have to throw a punch but the chance that I could throw a punch changes your perspective. That's what a lot of people don't understand. You can put on gloves and you can train a little bit. It's definitely a good training tool but it's still not a fight. **Sonny:** Then for you have those rule changes and turning it more into a sport and then we see now and even going more into an entertainment side with some of the promotional tactics and how different fighters are promoted. How do you think that has taken away from the essence of what you see as the real art of fighting? **Jeremy:** I don't know if the promotional side of things has taken away from it too much. Even now, I've got my problems with that as well because I prefer to see people that are awarded on their skill as a fighter. As a participant in the sport, I want to see people earn a number one spot by beating the number one guy. As a fan, I also enjoy the Conor McGregor's of the world and the Chael Sonnen's because it does, it makes it entertaining, definitely. I would still rather see people earn their spot through their actions and their performance not by running their mouth and that's what earns them a big fight. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear you. I'd still prefer that too but then I still always tune in. \[crosstalk\] **Jeremy:** Absolutely. I love an entertaining fight as well and I love a good backstory, but it's irritating when now everybody tries to be Conor, to be Conor and Chael both. Both of those guys have a gift to talk. They're very good at hyping a fight and they seem sincere. Even though I think at this point, we all know, it's a show. They're talking, they're building a fight, and they're making us get engaged but you still can't deny it, you're still engaged, you still want to see it. Whereas other people just do a really bad job of it. **Sonny:** When you were fighting and obviously over in Japan, there's this crossover over there with Japanese MMA and pro wrestling. Was there any kind of fights that you had that the Japanese put that extra bit of show on for or that they were hyping up in an interesting way or-- **Jeremy:** No, not particularly. When I was fighting over in Japan, it was a big rush. The Japanese crowd and a lot of the organizations over there just really wanted to see a lot of foreign fighters. They are not quite sure. It's both. They love to see foreigners come over and get beat by Japanese fighters. That's huge for them, it's a nationalistic thing. They're proud of their fighters winning and so that's cool. At the same time, they're just huge fans of the sport. They love to see two guys fight and the winner win. They don't care that much but at the same time, if that winner is a Japanese fighter, it's just even better. It was just a huge push. Lots of foreign fighters coming over because the Japanese fighters and fans wanted to test themselves, I guess, wanted to see where they stood. We got a lot of press and we got a lot of push and a lot of support but never anything specific for me. **Sonny:** Sure. I guess then speaking of then the different cultures and how those different cultures can breed different perspectives of people watching, and of also then the people earning their place. Probably one of the best examples of an early super team would have been the Miletich Fighting Systems and the culture in there must have been something special in those early days to produce so many of those champions. **Jeremy:** To me, it really wasn't anything special, it was just a room full of people that just really enjoyed training. Again, that's another thing that I don't like where the sports going now because now you see people that come into the sport and their goal is just to make money. They're like, "Hey, I'm a pro fighter" because they love the image and the ego that comes with that, and I want to make money. When we started, there was no money in the sport. We trained every day because we love training, we love fighting, we love competing, we love doing what we do. When you love what you do, they always say "If you love your job, you never work a day in your life", right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Jeremy:** We were at the gym five or six days a week, two or three times a day because we loved it. "Hey, I'm going to put in 40 hours a week to train for this fight and I'm going to go make $300." Now, you got to tease people with a carrot on a stick, they're like "Hey, if you come train twice a week, you might make $1,000." I don't like seeing that because I'm tired of people thinking that to become a fighter is an easy payday. I get to lounge around and do nothing all day, and then I get to go fight and be a superstar and make lots of money, well, that's not how it works. If that is your goal, then you shouldn't be in this sport anyway, you should be in this sport because you love to train, you love to fight, and it's a bonus that you get to do it for a living. **Sonny:** I hear that. What part were you on your journey when you started training with Miletich Fighting Systems? **Jeremy:** Well, so I'd had a couple of fights in a few different organizations, and then in my, I guess actually, it was my second and third fights, I fought a tournament for Monte, who was my manager. Now, he managed me... **Sonny:** Monte Cox? Is it? **Jeremy:** Yes, Monte Cox. I met Pat and all the guys, and obviously, I was in Omaha training with my friends, and we were still pretty new, and everybody was still figuring everything out. I saw Pat and his guys, and I was like, oh, those guys they have a direction, they know what were doing. My friends and I were just getting together and jacking around, doing whatever we thought was right, like a lot of people at the time. I decided that I wanted to go train with Pat. I would start traveling to Iowa, it was about four hours. I would drive there for the weekends, then I would stay with him for the weekends, and we'd train Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then I'd go home on Monday and go back to work. Eventually, it got to the point where, excuse me, I was getting a few fights rolling in, but I was still working full time. Then I decided to move to Iowa, and at the time, fights were exploding, everybody was doing a show. If you had 300 square feet of space, you were going to put together a fight. When I move to Iowa, there were just so many fights happening that I could fight every weekend, and it turned out that I didn't need to get a job again. Again, that's another one of those things where I never really felt any stress. It's not like, okay, here I go, I'm going to quit my day job, and throw all my eggs in one basket as a pro fighter. I was working in Omaha, I moved to Iowa, I had planned to get a job in Iowa, but there were so many fights that I didn't need to. Back then, I was making $300, $400, $500 a fight maybe, but if you're doing that every weekend, it's enough to pay rent, so whatever. I'm like, okay, I got a lot of fights, I guess I'll start looking for a job next week, another fight, another fight, and another fight, I'll find a job next month. I just ended up never getting a job again because I didn't need to. Then obviously, the sport started growing a bit, and there started to be a little more money in the fights, and I was still fighting every weekend if I could. Eventually, the fights started spreading out a little bit, but they were also paying a little bit more, so I just eased into being a pro. I never really intended to do it because I was training and fighting because I loved it. **Sonny:** That's a good way to do it. **Jeremy:** That's the way it should be. **Sonny:** How many fights up to 100 did you get to when you realized, you know what? I think I'm in this? **Jeremy:** Well, honestly, even like all the way up to five years ago, six years ago, I still look back and I think, man. I sometimes feel like a fraud, that's going to get discovered at some point. People don't realize I'm just some kid that likes to train, and fight, and play video games, and play with my dogs. Somehow they're going to your realize, that I'm not really a pro fighter, they just happen to keep paying me to do this. That's always how it’s been. I would get up in the morning, I would go to the gym and work out, and then I'd come home and hang out with my friends, and go ride my mountain bike, or play video games, then go back to the gym at night, and then on the weekends go fight. I never sat back and said, holy cow, I'm a professional at this. Imagine if you're a college kid, but you get paid to go to parties every weekend. You just do your thing during the week, and then go do your thing on the weekend, and somehow there's always money in your bank. That's what it was. I never really looked at myself as a pro, never really sat back and thought, okay, this is my career now, I'm just riding this train as long as it'll take. **Sonny:** Wow, that's fascinating. It was really just this natural progression of just, hey, I want to fight, I have to give this a go, into this crazy warehouse, let's go one foot after the other, keep it going. It must've been maybe good fortune to be able to hook up with Miletich. **Jeremy:** Yes, absolutely, it was. Had I not done that, then I'd imagine that things would have taken a different path obviously, because I would have hit some limits of technique and skill, and I would have started losing more. Because as it was, like in my first 30 or 40 fights, I think I only had three or four losses. I was doing well, and I was winning more than I lost. \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Just to be on the side of that sentence, in my first 30 or 40 fights, I had a few losses, say no more. **Jeremy:** It was a very different time back then too, because there were still a lot of people that were struggling to figure out the sport, and figure out the game. We were as well, but I guess I was just a little bit lucky, in that I had a little bit of a knack for it. I've got a good brain for understanding fighting, I guess. People tell me that the way I explain things, the way I teach, makes it easier to understand, and all I'm doing is like, this is how I look at it, this is what I think, this is how I look at this situation, and position and mindset and strategy. People like, oh, I get it. Just chugging along doing that, and then going to Iowa and having partners that were good, really good wrestlers and good kickboxers, and stuff like that, just gave me an opportunity to push me, make me better. **Sonny:** What would you think then, some of those things that you looked at the problem a little differently to others, that enabled you to have success? **Jeremy:** I don't know if I could pick out any specific examples, but just different ideas of techniques, and different ideas of how to do things. This is one **\[unintelligible 00:26:21\]** that I actually ever have, I kind of struggled with a little bit as I've become a coach because to me-- We talked earlier about, when you add punches and you add the ability to strike, it changes your mindset in a fight, but it never did for me. I realize now that it does, but it never did for me. I was always thinking look, if I'm in a fight, and I'm grappling properly, I'm controlling your arms, I'm controlling your head, I'm doing the things that I should do, then it doesn't matter if you have the option of hitting me or not, because you can't move your arms anyway. As long as I'm tying up your arms, which is what I want to do anyway to control you and win, so what is the matter if you can hit me? That's how I've always looked at it, like if I'm doing things right, it doesn't matter what the rules are. It doesn't matter if there's a gun laying across the room, legally you can get up and run over and shoot me, that's fair. If I can keep you pinned down, and you can't get anywhere near that gun, it's not going to add stress to me because I got you. I realize now over the years of coaching, it's not like that for everybody, that level of anxiety. I've always told people look, just do things right. If you're grappling properly, it doesn't matter if your opponent can hit you or not, do what's right and you'll succeed. That ghost hanging in the corner still scares them, but what if I lose track of him? What if he gets away from me? What if? That what if is what ruins people. I guess that I've always had a slightly different perspective, and that's the one that jumps to mind, but conceptually, I grapple conceptually a lot more than a lot of other people, I think. **Sonny:** Definitely your grappling skills seem to give you that advantage over a lot of people, and I'd say probably kept you safe, would that be reasonable to say? **Jeremy:** Absolutely, it kept me safe, and my mindset as well. My goal was always to win fast, so I'm going to grapple, I'm going to not let you hit me, I'm going to keep you tangled up, and I'm going to get on top of you, and then you're going to turn over, and I'm going to choke you. I'm a decent boxer, but I've never been known as a striker, I'm a grappler, and I think everybody should be, primarily when they get started. Striking is incredibly hard, and now everybody, they see the superstars in the UFC, everybody wants to be a kickboxer, but again, people don't understand, it changes things. If you're not used to it, and put a lot of hours into it, as well as the fact that t I think it’s more difficult. Grappling is like hand to hand, it's like contact, whereas striking is we're feet apart, and now it's reflexes, and hand-eye coordination, and intuition, whereas those are all very less relevant in grappling. **Sonny:** Is there a way that you would train your grappling, in maybe in the early days, that has changed over the years, or is there any kind of drills, that you've done the whole way through? **Jeremy:** No, not really. My technique has changed a little bit, obviously. I've learned a bit more, and gotten a little bit better, and implemented some new things, and maybe changed a little bit the techniques that I used to do other things, but for the most part, well, it’s the same. It’s the same mentality obviously, like new techniques. Everything gets updated, everything progresses. **Sonny:** Sure. One thing that always interests me is the progression of sparring over the years. We maybe hear that the old style way was more just the survival of the fittest. Whereas now people are trying to periodise training more and soft days and hard days. How do you look at that? How do you think that changed? **Jeremy:** Well, I think I have always been of the mind, even from the very early days that training super, super hard, like hard sparring is unnecessary. Grappling is a little different. You can go really hard and you're not going to get hurt, but when you're hitting each other, you don't need to do that hard. Also because like, if somebody's going to punch me, they can either hurt me or they can’t. I don't need to test that every day in the gym. All I need to test is whether or not I can avoid that punch. If the punch lands, the result is what it is. Again, that's another thing that I've tried to explain to people. I've always tried to tell people when you're sparring, what you should be trying to do is execute good technique, throw good clean punches, and do your best to avoid them. People are like, but what about this, what about that and what happens to this. I was telling people, there's really only three examples, there's only three things that can happen if somebody lands a punch. Let's say you're in a fight and we're going to assume that your defense is already like redlining. You are doing everything you possibly can to the maximum of your skill and ability to not get hit. Let's say that guy who manages to land a punch or a kick or a knee, there's only three options. Either A that punch doesn't hurt because the guy can't crack an egg. What do you do? Nothing. Your strategy doesn't change. You're already defending as well as you can. That guy manages to get a punch through. If he set it up, well, maybe you'll read that set up a little better, but for the most part, you do nothing. Because if you're already doing everything you can, you can't do anymore. Or that punch hurts you and hurts you bad and now you're fighting on instinct and you're wobbling. What do you do now? Nothing because you're fighting on instinct. You don't have a choice or you're unconscious. Those are the only three choices if you're going to get hit in a fight. Again, assuming that we are already doing everything we can to avoid getting hit. There is no reason to ever let emotion get into fighting because all it does is make you worse. When we're talking about training, same thing, you don't have to hit me hard. I'm trying to avoid that punch anyway. Obviously t here are some days where you need to go a little harder to make sure that you are capable of it, but once or once or twice a month is plenty. You know Sean, O'Connell. He won the first season of the PFL, he's one of my guys. **Sonny:** Yes. **Jeremy:** Crazy, funny way in guy. That's almost you all know him. From the very first day, he started training with me. It became very apparent that he does not care if he gets hit. He really doesn't care. You watch his fights and somewhere you'll punch him right in the face. His expression doesn't even change. He doesn't flame. He doesn't squirm. He doesn't run away. You punch him in the face. He just doesn't care. That's a unique perspective. All I had to do with him was get him to understand, but it is bad to get hit. You will go to sleep if you get hit hard enough. Even though you don't care, let's try to move your head. Let's try to defend but yes, emotionally, you shouldn't care. Mentally, defensively, you need to care, but emotionally, you shouldn't care. You see those guys that are scared of getting hit, they shouldn't be boxers. They should be grapplers. If your training is that, and all you're doing is basically playing high speed tag, then your training can go on and on and on forever. I used to train with Jens back in Iowa when we were together, he's weighing 140 pounds or 150 pounds. I'm weighing 210, and we've been sparked 10, 12, 15 rounds a day, because all we're doing is playing tag, basically. With good adherence and good technique and not doing a bunch of flashy bullshit. If you do that, we're learning good head movement, good defense, learning to do all the things you should do, but you don't have to get hit hard. **Sonny:** That seems like a much more efficient way to train because you're going to get a lot more time working with good partners. **Jeremy:** It's a lot more fun. You trained yourself, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Jeremy:** Do you train a lot of Jujutsu or MMA or a little bit everything? **Sonny:** Jujutsu, MMA used to fight professionally, but now everything. **Jeremy:** You know what it's like when you go into that gym for a hard sparring, then you like, fuck, man, this is going to suck. I'm not happy here. This is going to be a bad day. I want to get my work done and get out of here because I'm not feeling it today. I'm getting my ass kicked and it's going to suck. Well, who wants to train in days like that? Versus the days where you go in, you're like, hey, we're going to have some fun. We're going to roll around real lightly on the mats. We're going to have some fun. I'm going to learn, blah, blah, blah but if your sparring days are just like hey, we're going to go in, we're going to play tag. I'm going to run around, have some fun, then it makes training enjoyable and you get more out of it as well as retain more brain cells. **Sonny:** I think even sometimes it's certain people that are this round \[crosstalk\] **Jeremy:** Absolutely. Everyone got one of those rounds. I got to bite down because this round is going to suck. You see, you need those every now and then, but only two to reinforce that, yes, I am tough. Yes, I can take a punch. Yes, I can continue to execute good technique even when I'm a little nervous and the things are on the line. Once you know that you have that faith in you, you don't have to do it all the time. **Sonny:** Were you ever able to do that then with Tim Sylvia? **Jeremy:** Yes, because I'm faster than Tim. You're training with people long enough, you get to know their tendencies and definitely hard to deal with his jab, but stay closer, stay far away. **Sonny:** Then going back to your idea of taking the emotion out of fighting or the emotion out of getting hit, I think you were talking about specifically that when you're taking your- like a mindset approach into fighting, is that where you also just trying to be emotionless and just trying to act rationally through the fight? **Jeremy:** I try to be as much as I can, obviously, in a fight nerves creep in and nerves qualifies emotion. You start to make decisions that you wouldn't normally because you're basically scaring yourself. I got to flinch a little more because if this guy hits me, he's going to knock me out. I can't afford to let him come. I always tried to be as logical and rational as I could, when I fought. Every single time I fought, like generally, I was the better grappler in the fight. Look, I don't care how good this guy is on his feet. I'm not going to box with it. If I can take him down, I win. It's not a matter of, oh, what if he hits me or I can't afford to get hit. I'm not even going to play that game. I'm going to do everything I can to take you down and then I'm calm. I’m calm with that mindset because I know what I have to do. **Sonny:** Taking that mindset, is that something then you try and put onto your fighters that you're training now? How do you go about trying to do that for you like when you're warming them up or just when you're walking them to the cage or how do you impart \[crosstalk\] **Jeremy:** Yes, I do. Obviously, we talked about a lot while we're training and while we're rolling and stuff like that, I try to explain to people what their mindset should be. I'm like I said I always try to encourage people. Like I said, it all comes down to basically logic in fact. If you are faster than them, you're faster. How do we work around that? If that guy's faster than you, how do you work around that? If he's stronger than you, how do you work around that? If you have a guy that's bigger, stronger, faster, better Jujutsu, better boxing, better wrestling than you, how do you win that fight? You don't, you can't win that fight without some luck. If you're my fighter, we're not taking that fight. You don't have a chance in that fight. There's no reason to take that fight. If you're a little bit stronger and you hit a little bit harder, but he's a better grappler and he's faster, well, now that gives us the strategy. We got to try to stay on our feet. You got to try to hit him hard, that kind of thing. Or if you're a better grappler, blah, blah, blah. If there's a way to win, then we just try to figure it out basically. **Jeremy:** That makes sense. **Jeremy:** Every fighter, well, it's getting to be a little less common, but almost every fighter has a weakness, a weak area. All we got to do is find it and go there. Obviously, that weak area is getting smaller and smaller for a lot of guys, but everybody has one. We just got to find it and try to take the fight to that area. That's again where we talked about earlier. I don't really like to see where the sport is going now because now everybody wants to stand up and brawl. It drives me insane when I watched two guys that are, let's say, one guy's a bulkheads, are good stand up guys. One guy's also a good Jujutsu guy. he'll get clipped on his feet and he'll go down. What's the first thing he does? **Sonny:** Stands back up. **Jeremy:** Tries to get back to his feet. Like, what the hell are you doing, man? Do you understand what you should do? You are good on the ground and you are hurt on your feet, lay on your back and try to recover for a second. If that guy follows you to the ground, you're good on the ground. Try to recover. Don't get back up where you can barely stand up and let that guy knock you out more. Everybody is getting so sucked into this idea of, I got to stand up and prove how tough I am. I got to win that fight of the night bonus because I want to get up and brawl with people. I've never cared about that. I want to win. I still look at training and fighting as an offshoot of self defense. **Sonny:** That makes me think then of maybe the diminished role of the guard now in modern MMA, it just doesn't seem to be played as much, sometimes not at all. What's your thoughts on how that's happening and what could be different? **Jeremy:** I agree 100% the guard is going away because the way the rules, rounds, and the standards have implemented the sport. There's a lot of things that the grapplers, in general, but specifically it hurts the guard a lot. Judges are still stupid. If you're on your back, they think you're losing. Somebody can lay on your guard with their head in your chest and punch you in the ribs, and they're going to win. That's not always the case, but you get what I'm saying. There's just a lot of opportunities where the grappler is hurt. Every round starts on their feet. The strikers get an advantage every round. Well, if I spend three minutes in a round, chasing you around because you're running, then I finally get a hold of you, it takes me a minute to drag you down because you're leaning against the fence and every now and then grab. Well, that's a whole another issue. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Jeremy:** Out of a five minute round, I've been chasing you around, finally dragged you down and I have a minute to work. If I sit still for 30 seconds, I'm going to get stirred up. Really, I just spent four minutes working on taking you down, and we're going to get stood up within a minute. Why don't we start on the ground on the next round? **Sonny:** I could be sold on that idea for sure. **Jeremy:** Just like anything else. If there's a referee restart, and they can reset it in the same position, like in some of the grappling tournaments, if the position is clearly definable, then restart him on the ground. He earned it that whole first round. Why not let him work from the segment? That might change things a little bit because now you have a guy if he's good enough on the ground, he can take you down. One take down is all he needs. He gets one take-down in the first round and keeps you there for the rest of the fight, might change things a little bit, rather than the striker getting a free stand up every round as well as stand ups for the referees, stand ups for inactivity, blah, blah, blah. It's just very skewed towards strikers. **Sonny:** It's definitely just evolved that way now. I think a couple of maybe set positions that they could restart if it needs to be. I'd be willing to watch some of that. Of course, I enjoy watching grappling myself. \[chuckles\] I may not be the average person that people are- that they're marketing these fights through, unfortunately. **Jeremy:** Right. The average people just want to see people get knocked out. It brings more money to the sport for the fighters, which I'm a fan of, but it also makes the pursuit of money the main goal rather than winning a fight. **Sonny:** It's one of those things that it's going to be difficult to change at all really. On then your pursuit into professional fighting, and maybe this was getting into where it was starting, to get more money for you into the UFC and the rings as well. You had fights Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, what for you was some of those most memorable ones with these elite levels of the sport? **Jeremy:** Honestly, all of them were memorable. Again, because I've always loved fighting and I've always loved training. None of them really stood out more than any others because they're all awesome. It's like which one is your favorite? Well, they're all my favorite. Again, I feel like I'm a kid that's hiding and somehow I'm going to get discovered. I've gotten to live an amazing life. I've gotten to travel the world doing exactly what I love, training and fighting and being part of this community of people. I love all of it and I always have. The more I see it shift away from that, because it's going to be more financially driven, the less I like it. I don't want to see it go that way. I've had people come into my gym before, they're flicking a cigarette as they walk in the door and they're like, "All right, how long before I can have my first fight and how much money do I make?" I'm like, "Man, just get the fuck out of here." Well, I'm not doing that. If you're not here because you're interested in training-- You can come in and say,"Hey, look, fighting is my goal. I really want to fight. I love the sport. I want to be part of the sport." "Absolutely. Come on in." If you're like, "Hey, I think this is an easy way to make money. I just want to fight and make money. What do I got to do to make that happen?" It's not for you. First of all, you're never going to be good at it. Second, there's not that much money and until you're way, way down the road. I don't want to deal with that. I want people to come in and go, "I watched the sport. I love the sport. I want to try it. I would love to compete someday." Those are the guys I want. **Sonny:** I hear you. **Jeremy:** Honestly, I want self defense, it goes without saying. **Sonny:** For that side of things, I always tell people, it's like picking up a guitar and saying, "I want to learn to play at the stadium, down the road or something." It's like, "Well, you got to play a lot of open mics first." \[laughs\] **Jeremy:** You can go a long, long way. **Sonny:** What would you think would be some of those benefits of having the love of the sport, the love of martial arts, that have carried over into the other areas of life for you? **Jeremy:** Obviously, all the relationships that I've made, all the the people that I've met and the lives that I've gotten to change, that's another thing, that for me has been a really big deal. I don't see myself as anybody's special as a fighter and I don't see fighters as special people anyway, athletes in general. I don't watch any other sports. I don't care about football, baseball or basketball. I just don't care. **Sonny:** Me too. **Jeremy:** It really bugs me. You're playing the game, so am I. I'm playing a game, I'm nobody's special. I'm not doing anything. For people that somehow think that because of their status as an athlete, they mean more to the world than then somebody else. I'm nobody's special. I am fortunate that I have lived the life that I have and I am fortunate that I've been able to make money doing what I do so that I don't have to go get a job. Because if I couldn't make money doing this, I would go get a job and I would still do this. My life would just suck because then I would have to spend all my hours working instead of getting the train like I do. I don't think me as a fighter or any fighter has done anything particularly special for the world. I don't deserve any credit as a fighter. I'm nobody's special. As a trainer, as a martial artist, as a coach, I have changed a lot of people's lives. That I am very proud of. As a fighter, man, so what? I haven't been good at beating people up. I'm glad people enjoy watching me do it. I'm glad it gives them some entertainment. I guess, there's a little bit of value there because people enjoy it. I'm way more proud of, the guy that joined my gym and because of it, quit drinking, quit being a dirt bag, and now he's married with three kids and owns his own business. I'm way more proud of the fact that, there's a little kid that trains with me, that was getting bullied, and now he's confident, strong, has friends, and has completely changed his personality. I'm way more proud of those things than I am that I won a world title. I said, as a fighter, none of that crap matters. It matters to me, it's cool, but it doesn't matter as far as like changing the world. What matters to me is the things that I've done in the gym with the people that you'll never hear of because they're not going to be professional fighters. **Sonny:** I really like what you've said there in terms of, I guess, having the impact on the closest people around you. **Jeremy:** Absolutely. **Sonny:** You might say that you don't think you're anything special as a fighter or that's not as much value as worth. From a personal perspective, you're an inspiration to-- **Jeremy:** I may be overstated that. That is very nice to know that what I have done has touched other people to make them want to be inspired. Yes, in that regard, it does matter. You get what I'm saying now. **Sonny:** I do. **Jeremy:** I'm just a guy in a ring beating somebody up. I didn't do anything for the world. There is some value because other people-- **Sonny:** Again, I think, you're right. At the end of the day, it is those personal interactions that we have with people closest around us who can know on that one on one level that are going to have that lasting impact as well. Just some of those impacts that martial arts can have on a personal level for people that maybe the most valuable aspect of training and competing. Would you think that the transformative power of martial arts in people's lives? **Jeremy:** Absolutely. I think that is one the biggest. I don't want to say it's overlooked because, obviously, that is something that a lot of people know martial arts does. It's one thing that its losing its front page status, so to speak. It's huge. I was a shy little kid that got bullied and I'm still a shy adult but I'm now confident. I'm shy because I don't really like being around a lot of people, not because I'm scared to be around a lot of people. It certainly is nice to know that pretty much anywhere I am, I could kick the shit out any two or three people at a time. It makes it much easier for me to stay calm and relaxed. I'm okay just sitting in the corner watching people. I don't have to be the center of attention. I don't want to be the center of attention. Definitely, it has changed my life for the better massively. It does for thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people across the world every day. **Sonny:** It's very interesting you bring that up because, I guess, the two sides that people would look at martial arts would be like they see the UFC on television, the hardcore, competitive cage fighting side, where people think of it as a blood sport and this awful thing. Then, there's also this other side of the power of building confidence and transforming people's lives. **Jeremy:** Yes, definitely. **Sonny:** That's something that you must have come across with a lot over the years, with being such an active fighter and knowing of this other part of martial arts. How have you dealt with squaring those two off in your life? **Jeremy:** Well, I guess they really have not had a whole lot of crossover for me because I've always tried to help people. I see people come to the gym and I can see people that are like, they're just broken people. I had a guy who trained with me years ago and he ended up quitting, which was really unfortunate because I think he's one of the people that really needed it. He was early 20s, in decent shape, but not a physical superstar. I could tell that he felt like he was worthless. He was a really nice guy and he had trouble doing just a basic, free bodyweight squat. That should be a pretty the simple thing for a kid in his early 20s to do, but he just couldn't do it. He didn't have the balance or the flexibility. He had never done anything athletic before in his entire life and he knew it. He knew that he was not where he should be, even to the point where he would make comments about himself, he's like, "Oh, man, I wish I could do this, like a normal person," and stuff like that. I'm like, "Man, I hate to see that kind of thing. I hate to hear that." I used to work with him a lot. I tried to get him to come back. I think just because he felt so self conscious being in a crowd of other people that could do it. I'm really lucky. I've got a great gym of people. I don't have any jerks in my gym. Everybody's friendly. A new guy comes to the gym and everybody comes over and says hi and introduce themselves. I know that it was just his own self consciousness that drove him away because he was very welcomed at the gym. He just couldn't get over it. He ended up stopping training with us. I feel really bad for people like that. **Sonny:** Is there anything else that you think that martial arts or the MMA could do to help bring those people in, to help make the weak strong? **Jeremy:** Yes, obviously, just doing what we do. Just helping them and training them and being a friend to them. That's all people need. It all boils down to basically your own self image and your own self confidence. I'm sure you've seen it. There's people that should not be confident that are, and then there's other people-- I've got a guy that he actually is now training. I think he's probably pretty close to done. He's going to be in the Secret Service. He was a really smart guy, college football star, trained with me for a while, have a lot of good fights, with dual citizenship with Australia and the US. He went to school in Australia, trained at a gym down there. Really funny, good looking guy. He's six foot two, 210 pounds, just abs, just the whole package. I was talking to him one time and he was telling me how he thinks he's ugly. He's always worried that people think he's funny looking. I'm like, "Dude, I would bend over backwards to be built like you. You're a good looking guy. You've got a great sense of humor. How can you feel this way about yourself?" Now he was a copier locally, he got accepted into the Secret Service detail. He's bouncing all over the US doing different training things. He probably still feels like he's not good enough. I saw a documentary with Jim Carrey, the comedian. He talked about his upbringing and obviously an incredibly funny guy. He talked about how a lot of people that are very, very funny are because they are really self conscious and abused as kids. They develop a sense of humor to make everybody like them. There's so many people out there like that that ,man, if you could see yourself the way the rest of the world sees you, you wouldn't feel the way you feel. I think martial arts can do that for people by giving them some physical strength and giving them some physical tools. Showing them that they have some value and showing them that they do have friends with similar interests that aren't going to judge them. That's what martial arts should be about. As well as, obviously, helping people to defend themselves and helping people to build stronger lives and stronger relationships. Then, real far down the list of importance, is getting in the ring and competing. It's certainly fun. **Sunny:** Great fun. **Jeremy:** In the world of importance, it's pretty far down there. **Sonny:** I really like that, Jeremy. That's a very nice way to put it. I think I'll finish up just with one more question for you. Just for advice for any young fighters, maybe on dealing with promoters, I think might be a good angle, because I'm sure you have a lot of experience with that. Just how would you recommend or a bit of advice that maybe you could have given yourself back in the day? **Jeremy:** Well, I was pretty lucky. I had good people around me. My first trainer actually took over as my manager for a little bit. Because, again, he was just a good guy that wanted to see me not be taken advantage of. He was like, "Look, I don't know anything about the sport, but I'm a smart guy and I'd be happy to look over your contracts and make sure that you're not getting screwed." He was basically my manager, but he didn't really know what he was doing. He was like, "Look, I don't want any money, I want to help you to make it." He looked over my first UFC contract and basically he was like, "I want to make sure you're not getting screwed and taken advantage of." Then I went along with Bonnie, not long after that, who obviously is a great manager. I would recommend that they get somebody who obviously has some intelligence, but who also that they really trust to help them navigate through this. Everybody wants to fight. Every fighter wants to take every fight, but you need somebody there to say "Hey, man, this is probably not the best fight for you." If you're a fighter, and you're talking to a promoter directly, what fighter is going to say "Yes, I know, that guy's got 10 fights and I've got one. I probably shouldn't be fighting him." Well, no, the fighter is like, "Yes, I want that fight." Well, not every fight is right all the time. It helps to have somebody else to protect you from yourself. That's what I would say is, get somebody to be the middleman because promoters will naturally take advantage of fighters. Not necessarily in a nasty, underhanded way, but it's the promoters job. **Sonny:** That's their job. **Jeremy:** \[crosstalk\] as much fights as I can for as little money as I can. The fighter wants as much money as they can get. Find somebody to help walk that line. That's one thing I would say. Find a good gym. Find a good gym with people that want to train hard. **Sonny:** That's good advice. I like the idea of finding someone who will protect you from yourself. I think it's good advice for young fighters. I think that's a good way to put it. Jeremy, it has been really awesome to talk to you, mate. I really appreciate you giving me your- **Jeremy:** My pleasure. **Sonny:** -time. I hope you've enjoyed it. **Jeremy:** Absolutely. **Sonny:** Awesome. I'll be in touch in the future. Maybe we can do this again and again sometimes. **Jeremy:** I'd love to. Awesome. Sounds good. **Sonny:** Jeremy, thank you so much. **Jeremy:** All right. Thank you. We'll see you next time. **Sonny:** Cheers, mate. ![Jeremy Horn Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jeremyhorn_tsbb_promo.jpg "jeremyhorn_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Chris Paines On Unconventional Growth in Grappling & A Universal Theory of Guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-interview-universal-theory-guard/) **Published:** October 27, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Chris Paines BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Chris_Paines_BJJ_Guard-1024x576.jpg "Chris Paines BJJ › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Chris Paines**, a Staffordshire-based black-belt who built a “concept first” style while running an isolated club with no senior coach, about reverse-engineering Jiu-Jitsu by asking *why* each sweep, choke, and guard exists. Forced to learn from YouTube and occasional seminars, Chris searched for the underlying physics and biology of grappling, then pressure-tested those ideas through conversational drilling and finish-first sparring. The result is an approach that treats guard as “wrestling with four limbs”, prizes constant peer feedback and teaches beginners to survive by gluing knees to armpits before ever learning a submission. ### Listen to the Chris Paines Interview ### Listen to The Episode: - [Apple podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unconventional-growth-in-grappling-a-universal/id1476963733?i=1000496193439) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2UouWbsx7s3xBd1GxPI3JZ?si=ca1d3760ebef46d9) ## Key Topics ### From technique collector to “machine” analyst Training winters in an unheated warehouse, Chris and friends could only pick up a new sweep every few months, so he began hunting the common threads behind all moves. He realised Jiu-Jitsu is “physics and biology applied to a machine” and decided that if he understood that machine he could eventually recreate every technique himself. This concept-driven lens also helped tame what he calls the “95 percent chaos” of rolling, replacing rote memory with adaptable principles. ### A universal theory of guard and passing Borrowing wrestling logic, Chris maps every exchange to five anatomical control points - the head, two armpits and two knees. In guard you try to *add* points with four limbs; on top you try to *subtract* them to one or zero. Closed guard equals double-underhooks, half-guard mirrors a single-leg, and modern lapel systems still chase armpit-and-knee control. Seeing positions through this count-up / count-down game lets students invent guards - he watched newcomers “create De la Riva” after one lecture on the rule. ### Finish-first, backwards teaching Classes start at the end: lock the triangle, feel the kimura grip, learn the pressure cues. Each step you move backwards the partner adds more freedom until the entry emerges organically. Mount, side-control and north-south are taught as the *same* position , “one arm and one leg, two legs or two arms in the armpits” , so students focus on controlling points, not memorising pin names. ### Building a feedback culture Reps become conversations. Partners ask “does this hurt more if I move here?” while cycling through the move for several minutes; the learner on *bottom* often gains more insight than the attacker. Chris wants students to feel pressure, report it and adjust immediately, instead of logging ten mindless repetitions. The rule in his gym is simple: “I learn more when you twist me up and I tell you what feels tighter”. ### Survive first: knees-to-armpits & heels-to-hips Day-one advice is purely defensive: connect elbows to knees and, if possible, heels to hips. White-belts who master this “ball” frustrate advanced players and buy time to experiment safely. The mantra, repeated in every warm-up, reframes shrimping and running-man escapes as one goal , *keep attackers out of the knees-and-armpits gap*. ### Passing like a wrestler Because wrestlers never concede double-underhooks or a single-leg, Chris cannot understand why grapplers “accept half-guard and fight from there”. His prescription: pummel, strip armpit and knee grips immediately, and the guard dissolves without learning dozens of specialised escapes. ## Key Takeaways - Concepts become useful when they simplify decisions under live resistance. - Chris frames guard play around managing space, alignment and connection rather than memorising isolated moves. - Understanding the underlying machine of Jiu-Jitsu can make chaotic exchanges more predictable. - Good principles should transfer across positions, opponents and specific techniques. ## Resources #### Quotes - “If you can just connect your knees to your armpits, you’ll be fine.” - “Jiu Jitsu is chaos - 95 per cent of a roll you have no idea what’s happening.” - “When you understand the machine, even madness on the mat starts making sense.” - “No one talks about the space between your arse and heel - close it and half the guards disappear.” - “The emphasis in Jiu Jitsu is wrong; gripping trivia matters less than owning the space between knees and elbows.” - #### Links - [Chris Paines Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/chris_paines_bjj) - [Chris Paines YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisPainesBJJ) - ["How to Defend Everything” seminar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWitv9AKoNU ""How to Defend Everything” seminar") - ## Chris "Vilão" Paines INTERVIEW Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Chris, how are you today, mate? **Chris Paines:** I'm good, thanks. How are you today? **Sonny:** Good mate. Good. I've got in touch with you, actually the first time I think I saw you, it was a YouTube video from a seminar you did at BJJ Globetrotters, which had a nice click baity title of, I think it was something along the lines of This is How to Defend Everything or-- **Chris:** That one, yes. **Sonny:** The title certainly worked for me. I clicked on it and I thought, "What is this guy going on about? How is what he's doing, going to ever work." Then luckily, I played around with it and I thought, "Oh, actually, there's something to this." Then it turns out that that was something that you had been working with Pritt Mihkelson on, and I ended up having a chat with him. Then looking into your own stuff, I was very interested with the take that you had on teaching and learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and also with your involvement with the BJJ Globetrotters. Because I think you may have been maybe one of the first or you were ranked through them as well. **Chris:** Both on and off I'll give a brief background to my BJJ. **Sonny:** Yes, please. **Chris:** I've never actually done BJJ, I'm a Black Belt who's never done it. I actually came through via submission wrestling 11 years ago. My coach just left after the first year, various reasons due to work and injury, et cetera. They said to me like, "Can you look after the club until we come back?" That was 10 years ago \[crosstalk\] there was no- all the techniques we had, there was no standard guards, there was no De La Riva, there was no Single Leg X. Here you had close guard, half guard, and butterfly. If you stood up, you both stood up and you wrestled again, and that's pretty much all we had. It was a neck cranks and heel hooks. When I started to come in with stuff like lockdown because I was watching some Submissions 101, reading some 10th Planet books and that was about it. That put me pretty much in front of the whole group, quite fast because I had stuff that people hadn't seen before. They just said, "Can you look after it until we come back?" I don't think they're coming back. I've been waiting for 10 years and they haven't come back yet. Even where I am, we're quite fortunate in that Braulio Estima has gyms about 35 miles away from my gym. I don't know if that is in kilometers, like 50 kilometers, but traveling there, like I could maybe go maybe once every three to six months due to work. I used to go to London for the same thing, maybe every three to six months go for like a single session. The main only reason we bought Gis because it was cold. We were rolling around in hoodies and tracksuits and one winter, I think it hit -14 and inside the gym, Celsius. The water in the toilet froze and various other cold things, it was pretty horrendous. We were just a bunch of No-Gi guys who did heel hooks and neck cranks wearing Gis. Occasionally, may be every six months, three months a year, whatever, I'd go to a BJJ gym and learn like a sweep, then would come back and just do that sweep relentlessly. My approach to Jiu-Jitsu was forced along the lines of figuring out why certain things happen. What is the common thread amongst sweeps? Why do chokes work? Why is there guard? If I could apply a concept of why that existed, then next time I go to a gym then teach like a sweep, if my concept is proved right, it's like I've got the right concept. If I just keep using the concept, eventually I'll invent the techniques that already exist. BJJ is not handed down by some deity. It's on a plinth or a tablet or something. It's physics, it's biology and we apply ourselves to the machine and we get turnings out the other end. If I understand the machine, I should theoretically get the same techniques out eventually. When I'm at Priit, and his very conceptual style of looking at Jiu-Jitsu as well, as in it doesn't really teach this is a d'arce, this is a triangle, this isn't a matter of understanding of what defense is. That just touched on everything I wanted to know about jiu-jitsu. I called them round with his ideas, I looked into his-- I was never like, if it was from a Gracie or from a Bravo or something, say that's it, that's gospel. It was only a case of if it works, I'll get my blue belts and purple belts to teach you. One thing I say to them is, "I don't care if you think if it's wrong, it's right for now." As in what you're doing works for you now. There's obviously the versions of what you're doing and bad details, but what you're doing is right right now, and that understanding then you will always get better. I see that as my way of looking at it as well and how I look at pre stuff, as in what I know works for now, there is obviously something better. I'm not the be all end, all of this technique. There's always going to be bad details and different coaches and different black belts. I cant exactly have my blue belts and purple belts think that I am the end product when I'm still trying to figure it out. If I just apply myself to the machine and understand the machine, and eventually I'll understand Jiu-Jitsu on that level. The reason why I prefer that way is because Jiu-Jitsu is chaos. As a 95% of a role, you have no idea what's happening. As in, it's just mainly are happening around you. Hopefully something you kind of recognize happens when you can apply something you already know. If you understand the machine in various points in that role. Even when there's chaos, you can apply the machine and get a technique to work in that scenario. That's where the whole heart of defendant's thing came from. As in, if I can understand the concept of why defense works across the board, it doesn't matter what's happening in the chaos. I can find my way out and I think if I'd known that as a white belt, Jiu-Jitsu would've been so much easier. Instead of the hunted like ropes learn techniques I have to know. I remember having a spreadsheet back 11 years ago, listing of fight control defenses and guards and attacks and guards and I don't know. A lot times, even today, a few people say, "I need to go on YouTube and look up three more fight control defenses. It's like, "Oh, good God, this will take forever to learn." I don't know where you can learn Jiu-Jitsu this way, there has to be something more simple. **Sonny:** Yes, I agree with you there. It's funny that the idea of having that spreadsheet of just all the techniques, it seems like a good idea. Hey, if I just get everything written down, I'll have a more complete understanding, but then it soon becomes unmanageable with how you're going to do things, or how you're going to actually achieve that. I just want to focus on just your background. Just one little bit more, so you're actually from then a catch wrestling lineage. Would that be correct in saying, you said submission wrestling, but is that-- **Chris:** Yes. I don't think it's easy to use the word catch in the UK, if you don't actually belong to the snake pit and that lineage. Calling it submission wrestling was just easier. Like if I understand it my coaches' coaches were just basically guys who watched a bit of UFC and just wanting to hurt each other. There was no real solid technique behind what we did. It was actually here's a double leg, has a close guard, and here's a triangle. Just keep doing that until you win. I didn't see De La Riva or open guard or Single Leg X. Maybe the first four years of doing jiu-jitsu or grappling per se. I actually, prior to that, I came from a traditional jiu-jitsu background, like a Japanese jiu-jitsu, and I did I got my black belt in that. That's why they, I was used to the idea of a list of techniques. Coming into it, that's why every time I'd learned something, I'd write it down and create my own list because it didn't exist. There wasn't like a belt system or a syllabus. I created my own. Then once they left, I realized that I had no other real recourse for finding new techniques easily, figuring out the why I seemed to make a lot more sense than just having this dead list of techniques that will never be finished. **Sonny:** Yes. Then, so for you putting out the- or figuring out, sorry, the why and the understanding or the machine as you've put it, how did that process take place as your traveling with BJJ Globetrotters to go to their camps and coming back home and putting that together? Was there an "A-ha" moment or was it a slow gradual process? **Chris:** I don't think it was an "A-ha" moment. I think it was a, it was very slow and gradual and, I was actually so I met Christian Graugart, the creator of Globetrotters just before he created Globetrotters. He'd already written the book and this was the end of 2012. I just bought it over that Christmas and I read it very, very fast. Then he said he was doing the seminar in the UK in Manchester or Bolton, shall I say? I was still white belt, obviously. I went up and I want to go meet him after reading this book. We ended up catching a train together back to Manchester and he mentioned this idea of how because I said, we're an independent gym. We didn't really do BJJ or have any IBJJF connections. He said, he wants to create this network of independent gyms that could just train together. I gave him my email address. Then about a month later, he emailed a bunch of us saying this affiliation is going to happen. "Do you want to be part of it?" Instantly I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, one caveat is anyone who wants to come and see, you can obviously train for free." A bunch of the first coaches or in this chain email said, "If wants to come in, like meet me at my gym, they can stay for free." That's where the whole mat surfing idea came from. Soon after that, since there was a bunch of us, you said, why don't we all get together in my gym in Copenhagen and just train. The first Globetrotter camps we're just in CSA and Copenhagen and there's about 40 or 50 of us on the mats. There was no merch table or coaches from around. It was just the coaches from the gym doing a small number of classes in a day, like maybe five or six classes. To say, to go from that in 2013 to the utter behemoth that is today has been quite weird. The first, the ability to go to the Globetrotter camps and see all these different ideas from these different coaches. Because the amount of times you'd see a class and then another coach would do pretty much the exact same class, but in a different way. Makes you think that there isn't a fine, there isn't a definitive technique. They're all playing around the same concept. It just galvanized my ideas of, yes, don't become beholden to a single way of doing a technique or a single technique in general, or list of techniques, understand the machine and you'll be able to apply it to that situation and create variations on the fly. **Sonny:** Yes. Which sounds like a much more efficient way if possible, to actually learn and teach things. Right? I guess the, if possible part is the difficult thing, because it's not exactly laid out like that already. It's something that you've had to explore and develop, I guess. What's that process been like? **Chris:** I think one of the first ones that actually really pushed me in the direction of it was the brilliant, I say brilliant DVD set by Kit Dale and Nic Gregoriades, probably at the end of 2013, 2014. They talk about this conceptual jiu-jitsu as well. They, in the height of Kit Dale's fame. Again, it's like this, it pushed my ideas further. Like this is a real thing. They talked about, I remember one of the specific ones was like sweeps about unbalancing about taking off fight legs off a table and creating a force on the diagonal and stuff like this. Just some approaching concepts that way, but then I was also on the first instances as well was, there was a Ryan Hall seminar went to back in 2011, it was in the UK for the ADCC. He did a seminar as on his deep half system, but at one point he just threw this casual comment about core control in jiu-jitsu is based on being in between the person's knees and elbows and say, if you want to start them, just connect your knees to your elbows. It was a throwaway comment. It was even put emphasis in the seminar to this idea, but that was like, mind-blowing, I'm just putting these two things together. I think it might have been mentioned in the Kit Dale-Nic Gregoriades DVD as well. They're all touching on this same idea. Just this number of coaches out there just saying there are concepts that cover everything. Thenmaybe look at different sweeps, I think, "Right. Going from what these two guys have said, removing the table leg and creating a brush off an angle and all these different ideas that they had, I was like, right. Well, that obviously there's an idea here. If I look at the wleeps, I know, do these fit or can, or if I apply the idea, does my sweep work better? Then it became, I go to a gym, I would learn a sweep and I was like, "Right. Does this fit the concept by--? No? Yes? Perfect." Then it became a case of I mid roll because I have that my first year of training was involved in the drilling after that it became teaching and rolling. I didn't really, I probably drilled a total of probably about 20 hours in the past 10 years. It was all developed on the fly as in, I try a technique and try and put the concept together as it happens. I'd look at certain things that happen, like where that leg is, where my arm is, et cetera, and go, "Right. Well, if I apply the concept, will this work right now? Yes or no." It was just that constant testing. It was never like an hour of the session was drilling. It was right and it's just roll and roll and roll. As things happened, it just proved that the concept worked on after tweaked various aspects of it. **Sonny:** So it's very interesting that, yes, I guess you've been in a bit of an isolated situation and that's allowed you to explore and experiment in a new direction than what is more common. If I got it right in thinking that you're building up these ideas of [concepts that can apply to moves across jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) or grappling, and then you would go to another place where they're teaching a concept and your not sorry, what you go to another place where they're teaching a technique and as they're teaching the technique, you're thinking, okay, I've got these concepts that I know, what can I apply? What concept can I apply that will be applicable to this technique? Is that how you do it? **Chris:** Yes, exactly. Yes. I'm seeing the end result of the answer and applying the equation to it. Then if I get, if they cause obviously these are black belts and I'm much more knowledgeable than I was. They're thinking right. If my equation fits their answer, if they're about to do, I think they're about to do. Then my equation is correct. If not, I may have to tweak equation somehow, but most of the time it was, it was working out in the right way. It was right. I can then go back and the surface have to drill that one technique or whatever. I'd have just the concept I could then run with and then just carry on rolling as it was, and just keep inventing techniques. Eventually I was creating juices already existed and it's quite interesting. Like I was I've got pretty much concepts of concepts everywhere. Like I've got an overarching theory I've got, and I was going to private probably about six months ago and the guy messages me and he says, I won't learn nothing. I was like, reverse octopus back control or guard or something insane. I was like, okay, I've never even heard of this. I had a quick Google of it on YouTube and yes, it was like, it pretty much was exactly what I expected. My guard theory to be, I think I actually already played it in certain places and I was like, right. Okay. The theory is correct again. I was like, well, you don't need to [learn this by teacher the concept](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/), you will invent it yourself again or variations of it. **Sonny:** Interesting. You've got those young men you save and then concepts of concepts that you're refining, not the techniques, I guess, but you've spending time refining your concepts that can help generate those techniques from out of those concepts, which is an interesting way to look at it. Is that close to then? **Chris:** Yes, that's pretty much it. Yes, as in, it's like the idea that if you give a million monkeys or whatever else a million typewriters, eventually they'll create Shakespeare. As in, if I give a million white belts, these million concepts, eventually they'll invent jiu-jitsu. Being from the traditional jiu-jitsu background, which is quite judo-esque with the throws and karate punches, et cetera. They did O-Goshi, they did Ippon Seo Nagi , and Koshi Guruma Then you look at catch wrestling and they've got the mare , which is pretty much Ippon Seo Nagi,. I think, again, it's something that Ryan Hall says is, "There are only so many ways of grabbing the human body." You'll eventually develop all these same techniques. It was like hip tosses, et cetera. I did some Icelandic glima, while on the Globetrotter council a couple of years ago and they had hip tosses, et cetera, and you think, "These are, you've got Japanese judo and Icelandic glima, thousands of miles and thousands of years of culture apart developing the same techniques. To separate jiu-jitsu out and say, jiu-jitsu is a unique thing only to jiu-jitsu it's not. Whereas it's defined by the ruleset. We fight on the ground. If I just put two random people on the ground and left them there for a couple of years, eventually they'd develop jiu-jitsu. Given the concepts, they'd develop jiu-jitsu faster, even without [teaching them a single technique,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) because there's only so many ways a human being can be manipulated. As I say, it's physics and biology. It's a science. **Sonny:** Very interesting and-- I guess, would you be able to give us then an idea of one of your concepts, maybe the theory of guard that you just mentioned that can be applied? **Chris:** Yes. The way I look at guard is if you were to picture, like a law of grappling when it comes to control. Wrestlers have been doing it forever. There's three categories of control, there's behind the head, in the armpit or behind the knee/in the hip. That pretty much comes after it in wrestling. That's your double legs, your single legs, throws, your snap downs, your head ties, everything. All you're ever doing in wrestling is attacking those three categories of places with your weapons: two hands or two hands and a leg, if you have good balance, all you ever doing is getting a combination those things, and the more of those places you control of the five; one head, two armpits, and two knees, the more control you have of the person, the more likely you are to get a takedown. That is no different to any guard. In taking out the Gi for a moment, we'll come back to that. Half guard is no different to a single leg. Close guard is no different to having double-unders. Instead of having two weapons, like you are on standing with your two hands, on the ground, you have four weapons: you have two arms and two legs. It's what makes guard so interesting in my eyes. I think that, again, it was a Ryan Hall interview when he says, "Why does Roger Gracie do so well?" He says, "If you are better than the other person play guard, because if someone's upright, they've got balance. They've got gravity, they've got mass, they've got all this mobility on their side. If you're on your back, you literally have none of those things available to you. You have to try and even the fight with improving your number of weapons from two to four. That's why you don't just fight from side crawl. That's why you bring your legs into the fight. That's assuming that you are better than the other person, you can override these natural attributes. If you can't, play on top and don't play guard ever. Going back to this idea that if you're playing guard, you want to try and maximize control, and it's no different to wrestling. As in, I want to increase my numbers as much as I can with these four weapons. You think that when you're playing close guard, you all just getting double-unders. Then now, because you have your arms free, you can now control the back of the head. Now you have three points of control and guard is using them and one in lost with how many of those control points you have? If you have five, if you have both their knees, both their armpits and their head wrapped up, they're going nowhere. If you have three, so maybe close guard with a control of the back of the head. Again, it's pretty hard for them to go anywhere. Two, yes, it's now getting easily more likely they are to escape. If you have one, life is now hard. All I ever look at when I'm playing in guard then is if I'm in guard, I'm on the bottom, I want to increase my numbers as much as I can to five. If I'm on top of guard, I want to decrease those numbers down to one or zero and that's my guard pass. I'll just look at those five points, and that's again, going back to this idea of wrestling. If you don't want to get single-legged, don't let anyone control the back of your knee. The first thing you learn in wrestling is to pummel, why? You don't want anyone in your armpits. If for some strange reason in jiu-jitsu, because you have these predicaments dilution, style of learning. As in he does X, I do. Y we can't let people have these control points. We let people have close guard. At no point in wrestling would you let someone have double under hooks. You'd die. You wouldn't let someone sit with a single leg on you. You'd die. Yet we let people play close guard and half guard against us all day long and we don't deal with those issues. If you were to deal with them like a wrestler, does pummel out, strip those controls to the back of the knee, the armpits, et cetera, then we're passing. Why don't we just learn that? I'm just learning a whole raft of guards and a whole raft of escapes. Have I made sense or have I just lost it there. **Sonny:** No that's made, it's made a lot of sense. I was just thinking my wrestling coaches, he certainly doesn't like seeing the way that jiu-jitsu players will just accept a half guard on bottom. **Chris:** It's like watching a wrestler just accept a single leg and go "Right, cool. I'm going to fight it from here." That is ultimately bizarre to me. Actually, there's a very good friend of mine, his name's Darrius from Germany. He's done all manner of different grappling styles. He's a very good judo guy. One thing he mentioned to me was that when they grabbed the Gi in judo, is actually where the seam is in line with the armpit. Which is one thing I didn't realize, and that's the tightest part of the Gi. If you go like, two inches above and you go more towards the neck, it gets quite loose. If you go two or three inches down towards the bottom of the lapel, again it gets quite loose, but right around the armpit, it's super tight and it goes round the back. I thought it controls the armpit. Even with the Gi on, they're still doing it. If you look at worm guard, if you look at De La Riva, if you look at similar gags, the rule applying this idea, even with, or without the Gi, as mad as Keenan system is, it works because again, you're controlling the armpit with the Gi wrapped around your foot and the back of their knee. If you want to start stripping worm guard apart, you pummel the leg out of the armpit and pressure out of the De La Riva hook and put into the back of their knee instead. You don't need a list of techniques to escape all these different guards. You're just saying, "Right, are there behind your knee?" Then what's the first ecape you learn as a white belt from close guard? Drive your elbows into their thighs. Why? It gets them out of your armpits. The easiest escape from half guard is to just a push on the hip and bring your knee up. They're in holding onto your ankle. The first escape from De La Riva is to move you on the out and push it to the back of their knee, because it takes the control from the back of your knee, from similar advances to strip that feet from your hips. They've no longer got their hips controlling the back of your knee. It's all there. It's wrestling 101. **Sonny:** That's a couple of things have clicked for me there. Especially as you mentioned grabbing the gear as a means to control the armpit. That's certainly a new way of looking at it for me. It really is, you're just like knee pit control, armpit control behind the back of the head. Those are the five points. If we let people become aware of that, then no matter what situation they get put into, they can be thinking one, "What of those five [points do I have control](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) that I can clear out? Or two what points of my opponents of those, can I control? **Chris:** Exactly. Well, you think of your half guard, it gets bad. Deep half is more of a control than regular half because instead of just controlling one knee, you're controlling two. Or if you've got the dog, et cetera, you're now controlling the armpit, but if you've got a wizard, et cetera. It's all wrestling. If you control the back of the head, et cetera, you've now got three or four points control. If you can wrap the gear up around the back and get the far armpit, you've now got five points of control. I don't see any difference between-- guard is just like fighting a four-armed alien wrestler and how you try and cope with that scenario. **Sonny:** Then that is your overarching theory of guard at a wider view. Is that, is that correct? **Chris:** Yes. Like I said, I don't consider anything have to be at an endpoint. I have what I have that is right for now. I always look for things that either improve my ideas or prove my ideas are working. Looking at in a more scientific way, but so far looking at all the, like I said, when I've got this reverse deli octopus or whatever it was, you wanted me to go through. I don't care. It was the idea. I think you got a close guard and he pulled on the back of the shoulder and the back of the head then got an under hook on the leg. I was like, "Well, yes, this is exactly what I've been saying. You've now got four points of control over him. You could have invented this yourself." **Sonny:** It's a very interesting way to look at it that, yes, you could then using those principles, be able to come up with things that have already been invented by other people. I guess that is a common refrain in all of grappling. Nothing's really invented, it's just rediscovered or popularized by certain people. **Chris:** Exactly, exactly I'd say about the whole glima and judo idea.There's only so many ways of controlling a human being. If you grapple for long enough, you'll invent the same things that have existed forever. People seem shocked when they see 60-year-old videos of judo and they're playing De La Riva. It's like, no it's just again, it's the laws of grappling, you are controlling the back of the knee. Of course it's going to work. **Sonny:** Then someone is coming into your gym that you're running a class. How do you then take that overarching theory of guard that you've got there and apply that into a technique or just into a usable manner for someone? Is there a way that you go around that? **Chris:** The lack again, I did jiu-jitsu not the normal way of say, do a triangle from close guard. Again, I had a meeting with Priit. He said it makes more sense to do stuff backwards. I could see that. Where I started to look at how I looked at jiu-jitsu anyway. We did have a beginner course where it was eight weeks long and every week they learned all these different concepts. They'd learn the behind the knee idea, they'd learn the don't let anything in between your knee and your armpit idea. Again, it was a slight segue side idea. If you look at any video of when Priit does running man, it's no different to what-- Again, a very good friend of mine, Charles Harriot showed me his ideas on shrimping, and a shrimp is just a closed side version of running man as in one direction, you shrimp on the other direction you're running man but they're both the exact same idea. I'm trying to get my knees and elbows to touch. At that point, it made me realize that everyone, if they're shrimping both ways up and down the mats, in theory, they're doing shrimp and running man which is great. Again, I can't prove that either that both of these things are to get someone out your knees and armpits by connecting those to your knees and your elbows back together again. I thought, well, why do I have to then like specifically only teach the shrimp? Why can't I just say connect these two things back together again? We had this idea of an eight-week course, they learn that idea. Don't let anyone between your knees and your armpits, day one, day two this has guard theory and by the end of the guard theory session, I was watching people invent De La Riva, the beginnings of it. They'll grab him behind the ankle and wrapping their thought behind you the person's knee. I was like, do you guys have never seen De La Riva but you have just invented it. Fantastic. If someone comes into the class, every concept gets drove relentlessly every single day. We're certain we're doing a triangle or a kimura or something. We'd start from the end. We'd do the triangle and learn all the finishing aspects of it and then go backwards. Go from just having control behind the head with your legs but that postured or something and then go from just the arm is trapped, but every step back you do, the person's moving around a bit more. You're just trying to find that end product. Instead of learning five different setups to a triangle, you learn the end product of what you want. I want the arm trapped. I'm doing it from these control points of behind the head, armpits, and legs. It gives people their free rein to then play with their ideas and their body types and their personalities, et cetera. It goes back to the concepts repeatedly. If we were doing a kimura, we do the exact same thing. It'd be start from the kimura from top control and then work backwards. I don't differentiate. I don't think there's a difference necessarily between mount, side contro,l and North-South. I don't separate them in my head. I don't have a mount-- I don't teach mount. I don't teach side control. I don't teach North-South. The difference between any of them is in site control, you control in their armpits with one arm and one leg in Mount, it's two legs and then North-South is two arms. You still the same idea I'm still controlling their armpits or does it put a different part of my body in their armpit? The amount of times people are, how do you go from side control to mount? Well, simple. You just take your knee out or take your arm out but you need a-- I don't care how you do it, timing's your own but that's what you want to accomplish. Figure it out. Then we go back from there. You've got the kimura and then you go from these top controls and then every time you'd go back a step they'd offer a bit more resistance or a bit more movement. You'd have to get those controls, find the rest to set up your kimura and then rinse and repeat. **Sonny:** I think there's a lot of merit in that idea of teaching things backwards or just starting with the end product so that then people have a clear goal of what they're working towards. It makes sense and also then as you do work the way back, people get to spend more time completing the steps towards the finished product rather than spending time repeating a setup that is not what they actually want to achieve. It's just part of it. **Chris:** Yes it's one moment in chaos where they might get that set up. You're setting them up to fail. They have two or three different selves in chaos that they can use but if I wait for chaos to align for it to work and it's like again, how many times do you catch the submission and then you go, how did I get here? It wasn't a specific cell. You just like, Oh my guard, I made a triangle, this is amazing. I want to just recreate the idea as in your body knows what it's like to get a triangle or again, it's how many times do you see people set up a triangle and then get to the end but have that lens the wrong way round or forget how triangle ends anything. There's a disconnect there. There's a problem. You got people who can start triangles have never been a cell. You've got people who can do perfect setups who don't have any idea to finish the triangle. Well, I'd rather, it'd be the first kind as in you just know what a triangle feels like and you can warp chaos together. **Sonny:** Yes okay and then, I mean focusing in then on the idea of that warping chaos or controlling chaos, do you ever present people an idea of Oh, this is something I prepared earlier, like something that you've come up with or like a Danaher technique or a Marcelo Garcia technique and say hey, try this or is it all just letting the people tailor it to their own personalities? How does the interplay work between those? **Chris:** I may go make sure techniques that or demonstrations of the concept but I wouldn't teach it as you had drilled this technique. I'd show the concept, I'd teach the concept, then show the technique or a variation that someone's come across of the concept in action but then go back to teach them the concept in general. Again, we don't drill. I've always said I don't want to-- the idea of doing it for an arbitrary amount of time. You have to do 10 in two minutes. You have to stop after 15 reps or five minutes of doing this technique or some madness like that. I'd rather you did it once than spend that entire however long just doing that technique, looking at the end of it. I looking at every single facet of it, talking about that, saying, "Right well, if you move this way, could you get out? No? Well, if you go this way, could you go out? No? Well, will this improve this grip or will this not improve this grip?" I want that kind of feedback. Then, again, going back a level and try and get the resistance working and saying, "Right, well if you turned up on your side to defend this, could I still got this? No. I'm going to have to figure out how to stop it from turning onto your side first." I'd rather that be the way of drilling instead of here's this up, is, here's the end product do that 10 times and then come back to me, I'll show them, I said the end product of what some people have figured out before, just to show the concept in action. I don't want that to be what they drill. Again, one of my favorite ones is when I teach the guard passing session, privacy, et cetera, how much to pull off in the sun, not yet but I'm working on it as I say to people, right. This is the concept of guide passing and I type BJJ guard passing into YouTube and guarantee anything you find is going to have my concept in action. Yet you could spend forever watching all these YouTube videos or just some concept, and then they can go away with those tools and then watch all these videos in their own time, Danaher videos, Marcelo and go right. Well that here is the concept working now, renders them obsolete. **Sonny:** Yes okay. Yes, it's really just for you the main focus is always going to be on those concepts and the techniques are just a way to see the concepts in action? **Chris:** Yes. **Sonny:** Okay that makes a lot of sense. One thing I want to focus in on there is then your idea of your students giving that constant feedback to each other because that's something that is not as common, I would say because it's mainly should be the instructor giving the feedback but if students can give each other good feedback, then obviously that's going to be a big benefit to everyone. How do you actually go about fostering that within your club? **Chris:** The fastest that the show one of these ideas I'd show all the parameters of what wouldn't necessarily be an action, as in I'd say to people. If you're going to do like a guard holding or something, like putting a guard into action, I'd want the person in guard to try and posture, try and stack, hand fight, et cetera. Could I get rid of your grip for this? I'd settle these different parameters and say, "I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this." Again, if someone else is trying to get away from the idea of if people are doing just drills, the one person is dead practically for those 10 reps. You're just going to do 10 triangles to him. As soon as they switch off for those 10 reps, I would say, "Right, now it's my turn." I want it to be conscious, I want them to be giving feedback not just for their partner's sake but for their own sake, as in I want them to have it done to them and for them to go right actually because I want them to not almost go like how to make-- not in the same sense of I wanted them to only make their partner better, I want them to almost have their partner do to them what they do to someone. If I was saying like we're doing an Americana or something, I say to someone, "Right. I want you to be conscious of what's happening during the Americana. I want to actually say to a partner, "What if you bring my arm this way? If it hurts more, all right, okay." I'd love to do that next time for myself instead of just switching off of those 10 reps. It's not just the person doing the technique's sake. It's for the other person's sake. That's why I say this idea of, I don't want 10 reps, I want it to be a constant conversation throughout that two to five minutes or whatever of, "What if you move my arm here? What if you move my arm here? Does that hurt more?" Not for that other person's sake but for your own sake as in, "Actually, my arm hurts way more if it's put here." Right, okay, because you know your own body, and then you just have to replicate that on someone else. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense. The idea of being present and mindful while you're going through those-- not repetitions but while you're actually working on the concepts and techniques rather than-- I've certainly been in the situation where myself is switched off while someone's repping out a technique on me. You wait for your turn really. **Chris:** Exactly. It's then switching the role up a little bit as in it's almost reversing the entire process in the sense of the person doing the technique isn't the person learning? It's you. It's a frustration of my own over the years of I don't know what I'm causing to other people because I'm not them, as in as much pressure as I can put through someone, I don't know what that pressure feels like unless it's done to me. Whenever I go anywhere and I teach something, I don't want to watch two people do it in front of me. I want the person who's having the issue to do it to me. I then feel everything that should be happening. Almost at that point, I'm learning more than they are because I can go, "Right. My arm hurts a bit more if you move it this way. Could you move my arm over here? Yes, that really, really hurts now. " I'm learning just as much as they are because I'm actually having it done to me for probably the first time. I can then take what I just learned from then twisting my arm and then use my own jiu-jitsu. **Sonny:** It's funny that you mentioned the way of knowing how much pressure you're putting on someone because that's something I've thought about myself just as a way to how I can actually explain that accurately to anyone. I'm thinking, "Oh, should I bring in like a scale one day and a medicine ball and we give people-- they can see on the numbers where it goes up when they take their knees off the mat or something like that," because it is a hard thing to actually get across just slowly lifting the knees up or elbows off the mat, that that will actually increase pressure. I know it when I do it to people because maybe I can see the change of reaction in their face or their breathing pattern, and I've had it done to me as well, but to actually make that happen quicker for people to pick that up is a very interesting challenge that you're trying to- **Chris:** Yes, completely. **Sonny:** -take on there. When you're doing those things and the feedback is going on, we talked about personalities. How much does people's personality make that work or perhaps even not work with some people because I could see with your training partner, it becomes such a crucial part of the feedback process instead of the instructor who's spent a lot of time doing this you. Your training partner might not have as much time giving that feedback. How do you coach that side of things and how do you cater to those different personalities? **Chris:** It then becomes more of a culture thing as in when that understanding of your feedback isn't just for their benefit, it's for your own, as in you could be directing someone to a faster technique more correctly. At the same time, you are the full loop, as in if you can direct someone to do a technique that, again, like you said, people might tap just out of "I'm tired of this situation" tap when you're drilling something as you drill a triangle, and they just tap because their head is in that triangle, I'd rather it be a case of I'd rather have someone put me in a triangle, and then if I was a student, and then direct them to hurt me more. Just that culture change there as in it's no longer a case of drilling just for the sake of drilling so you can get better, then I have my go and I get better. It's a conversation as in we're investigating these techniques. When the outcome isn't reached between these two people to a full standard, that's where I can get involved. I'm obviously walking around at this point, I'm getting my head stuck in triangles, et cetera. It's weird that I don't get to drill, but if I demonstrate a technique, I'm not the one doing the technique. If a pair called me over and they say, "Could you show us that triangle again, please?" I'm like, "Okay, you do it to me." I make them go through everything of twisting me up and choking me because I want them to then-- I'm getting constant feedback throughout. I want that culture that it's a conversation here. The more feedback you give, the better you'll be. The idea of, "I need to get my 10 reps in, just hurry up and do yours, please," as long as I want to be the person on the bottom because I learned more. I want that to be the culture instead of, "No, you've had your minute and a half. It's now my time for the minute and a half." It just doesn't make sense to me. **Sonny:** Okay. It is a big change in culture from what a lot of people would normally be expecting. What was a big challenge that you've had to overcome while working your way out with that? **Chris:** How do you mean? **Sonny:** Is there anything that you try to implement to get people to do that that failed and you had to scrap or improve upon, or has it all just been a bit of a linear progression? **Chris:** It's more of a linear progression, but one of the best things that help is, again, this idea is like that we're drilling without taking-- Again, it's directly from Priit. We were arriving in these directions but hadn't got there yet, and it wasn't until-- Again, I met Priit at one of the Globetrotter camps back in 2017, and it was this first Globetrotter camp in Copenhagen. As the couple of battles are competing at black belt at the time, and some of the UK competitions, and doing pretty okay, I saw this Estonian black belt and I thought, "You probably can't even find Estonia on the map. Who's ever heard of Estonia?" I thought I'd give this guy a bit of a run around when I got to the camp. Instead, he twisted me up and spat me out. I thought, "Right, I'm going to have to pay attention to what this guy classes." His way of teaching was markedly different. I said, "How much would it cost me to get you to the UK?" He came over and did one of his intensive weekends. He was massive into this idea of-- One thing he does in his seminars is he will have you do the techniques quietly by giving no feedback after, and then he'd stop you and say, "Right, two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, talk about the technique. Just don't drill, just talk." I'd give feedback on that technique and say, "What worked well? What didn't go well?" Then, once you've done that, do it again with that new feedback. They were a completely different way of doing jiu-jitsu. **Sonny:** Yes, very different. **Chris:** Then, once you've had this conversation, then have a conversation in the class. That's one thing I should pick up, though I didn't look at it even more, this idea of this more of a conversation aspect of doing jiu-jitsu as where-- I did a tour of the US just prior to lockdown, as in North Carolina with Johnny Buck, one of his open mat sessions early one morning. The whole open mat was just people sitting against the wall asking questions of the last week. I did this in a row. What could I do here?" Various people would pop up with their answers. I thought, "That's brilliant." I love this idea of it's not you will sit down quietly listening to me. It's, "Right, why does this work? Why didn't this work? What pros and cons have we found from doing it this way? Can we get it better now? Can we work together and figure this out? Because again, it was a unique way I came through. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I never assumed that I was better than anyone. That's why this came in at such the right time for me. One thing, I went to Braulios for like one or two sessions, and it was you can't train there unless you've got the gi on and the Gracie Barra -- you can't go anywhere else apart from Baja gyms mentality. If any of my students say, "I'm going to go train here tonight," or, "I'm going to go train here tonight," I was like, "Cool, please, can you just show us what you picked up of when you come back?" We only get better if we were a team. I don't know everything, unfortunately. I just got here first. I was always very pro other people traveling or pro people coming into the gym because I was like, "Right, cool. What do you know? Can you show us anything?" or if people traveled like, "Bring us back something cool." That then just built an idea of since I started jiu-jitsu, it's never been a case of, "I'm the black belt. This is the technique." I was a white belt teaching a class. I was a blue belt teaching a class. Let's all get together and figure this out together because it's the only way we're going to figure out otherwise. I don't think we've ever changed. **Sonny:** Okay, that's interesting. That's something else I've talked to a couple of other people, and they've been putting these isolated situations where they've had to teach, at that blue, purple belt level, but I'm sure there's plenty of other people in those situations who have maybe just done what they have seen other people do, but it also seemed to have caused a bit of innovation in at least a few of the people I've seen. It's very interesting. What's Johnny Buck like? He seems like a bit of a character. Is he-- **Chris:** He is hilarious. His gym, it seems rough as hell. It doesn't make sense, but they are the one of the nicer gyms I've ever been to. Johnny, every high-rank belt, every student was just the nicest person. The crack and the banter amongst them all was amazing. Again, he probably is a member of his online group, about a month or two before I went over. Every time a new person started, they got a welcome off everyone. They got invited to the group and everyone said hello to them, welcome to, such and such, and everyone wished them hello, or they've got a big board on the back of their wall where it's like some whiteboard pens or whatever. You write down like it's a gratitude board or like an accomplishment board. You write down something cool you've done or thank someone for something they've done recently. I lost two pounds this week or I've run three miles. It doesn't have to be jiu-jitsu based. It's just something cool you did. That sense of community in a gym was just like-- Johnny comes across as such, like I said, a wild character. For him to foster that kind of culture in his gym, I was like, "This is the nicest place I've been to." Like I said, I've been to Barra gyms where if you deviate at all from the technique that has been shown, you're doing pushups, but in Johnny's gym, it was like this is the nicest place in the world. Let's all give each other thanks and gratitude for something we've done. He's probably going hate me-- if he ever listens to this, me saying Johnny Buck is the nicest man in the world. As much as the hard ass that he comes across, he's so cool. He may never let me come back. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** You might see the other side \[laughs\] after that. **Chris:** Exactly. I might see the bad Johnny Buck. **Sonny:** That sounds interesting, but it's not that surprising, to be honest. Especially in this sport, it's not the most uncommon thing to see people who can have an exterior of the roughest looking people you've ever seen. Then, they turn out to be some of the nicest people you've ever met. It's one of the good things about this sport, that you do run into a lot of good people. I'm wondering just to maybe wrap things up, Chris, if we have a look over your learning experience, what's the one thing that you wish that you could go back to yourself when you started learning that you could tell yourself that would help improve the speed at which you were learning even more? **Chris:** If I knew the concepts I knew now, if I was told these, if I was just given the control concept of knees and elbows which is pretty much the how to defend everything video, if I knew that when I was at the beginning, I could have saved myself so much time. The hours I spent reading books and watching YouTube and all this kind of jazz, it was like I could have easily just saved myself so much heartache. Peter says it very well when he teaches this infinitely better than I ever could. He says jiu-jitsu is suffering, as in you have so much at the beginning that you don't know what is happening to you. It's a horrible experience. That's why the first thing I ever teach is, if you keep your knees glued to your armpits, you'll be fine. Anytime you feel lost, just do that. I don't care if you ball up or anything, at least you're not getting submitted, but if you can just connect your knees to your armpits, you'll be fine, and anytime anything ever goes wrong. The amount of two-month white belts that I've had come through, I've competed on grapple fast on the same card as like Craig Jones and Lachlan Giles. I've had white belts who've been in for like two months who I can't choke or submit because they just ball up. They just connect their knees to their armpits and they're fine. Looking at that from their perspective, they've got the class black belt wailing on them and they're surviving, nothing bad is happening to them. The only thing that's bad happen to them is when they reach out. Again, it's something we're all told on day one, keep your elbows close, but I just never was told how close. If I'd known that, if I'd known keep them so close, they're connected to your damn knees and hips, I think jiu-jitsu would have been a lot easier for me. **Sonny:** Yes, it is funny, those little things that maybe do get mentioned in passing, or even like the Ryan Hall comment that gets mentioned in passing that had that impact on you. **Chris:** Even in passing, there was no emphasis on it. I spent so much longer playing the deep half stuff he showed than anything to do with the knees and the elbow thing. If I'd known that, that would have been infinitely more useful. One of the other things, again, it was Braulio's first black belt, Chiu Kwong Man in Birmingham. He teaches Renegade jiu-jitsu. He's got Tom Breese and a couple of really high-level guys in his team. I did a couple of seminars with them, again, about five years ago. He said that everyone talks about the space between the knees and armpits. Again, they weren't, but okay. I said, "No one ever talks about the space between the ass and heel." He said, "If you can keep that one closed, there's no other guards that will work on you. Again, like De La Riva, half guard, butterfly, none of those work if they can't get in between your ass and heel." I was like "What? I can fix guard that easily?" Again, it goes back to that how to defend everything. If I'd just known those two things early on, I could have figured out jiu-jitsu a whole lot faster. The emphasis was on those two things. **Sonny:** The emphasis and just knowing where to put those emphases is an interesting area because it seems to still be evolving in a way to shed light on some actual constants which are strange. **Chris:** The emphasis in jiu-jitsu is wrong. There's a guard passing video by Renzo Gracie, close guard pass video where he talks ages about where's to grip on the gi. People spend so long on those stupid details. Do you put your fingers in the middle of the gi? Do you twist it left? Do you twist it right? Is your elbow flared? Is it crunched in? Is it pushed into the stomach? Can you push it on your whatever. That isn't the important part. He talks about various aspects of that for this guard passing video. Again, all he does is he connects his knees to his elbows and then climbs in the space between their knees and elbows. At no point does he talk about that being the crucial aspect of this guard pass. That was a passing detail that the guard pass doesn't work if they're not in this space. **Sonny:** It's fascinating that we can focus so much time on a technique like that. I guess that's why some jiu-jitsu moves will go in trends where they can come in and out of trends, but the constant between it all would be those concepts that follow those things if those techniques are long. **Chris:** Exactly. There's also a new guard that comes out in some way. Again, they're always iterations of the same damn concept. I'm sure that you think rubber guard again is just an expression of that guard concept. How can I control your armpits in the back of your head with the full weapons I have? Yet, all of a sudden, 10 years ago, everyone goes nuts about rubber guard. It's like, "No, it's the same thing again, or the half guard, or worm guard, or whatever mad guard that Keenan's come out with recently, whoever knows what that is, which it is the same damn thing. You can't really play guard without this concept, but why is no one talking about this is what's happening? **Sonny:** That's a very good point. That's why we've talked about it here and put some emphasis on it. I really have appreciated this conversation, Chris. I've really enjoyed it. **Chris:** I loved it. Thank you so much. Hoping to have another chat in the future. **Sonny:** For sure. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way that they can go about and do it? **Chris:** If they just type Chris Paines, P-A-I N, so pain, E-S into Google, Chris Paines BJJ, they'll find my Facebook, they'll find my YouTube, they'll find my personal website. Any of those aspects, if you will contact me via those, I reply relatively fast. I'll happily talk to anyone. The amount of people who contact me and ask me questions and stuff, if I've got access to a video camera, I'll record an answer. I'm very, very accessible if anyone ever wants to talk to me. **Sonny:** Beautiful. **Chris:** I'm just going to do some \[crosstalk\] . **Sonny:** Hey, who isn't, really, in this day and age especially. **Chris:** It's such a brilliant idea because I'd never done BJJ. I'm not from a lineage. I have no lineage. I've obviously got my black belt from Priit, but as far as the learning goes, there isn't anyone above me. The linear thing falls apart. That idea that when in a style that puts so much emphasis on if it's from Brazil or who've got that belt from who, which I've been asked that question numerous times and it drives me insane, just a simple idea that there's some no-name guy from Stafford that people want to find out something from him. I'll happily answer any question just because of that. **Sonny:** Yes. It's something that I'm running into a lot with people I'm talking to because there's obviously that tremendous value in tradition that I probably don't need to explain because it's pretty evident that that seems to be the dominant force, that value of tradition, but then it's the people that are going outside of that that can bring in some new creative ideas where I think a lot of value can actually be had. The mat is the truth, as Sakuraba has said. **Chris:** Exactly. Everyone is equal on that mat. **Sonny:** It's very, very interesting stuff. Chris, thank you so much, and let's do this again in the future. **Chris:** Perfect. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. ![Chris "Vilão" Paines Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/vidthumb-1024x1024.jpg "vidthumb › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [School Of Grappling On Developing Grappling Intuition & Instincts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/grappling-intuition-instincts/) **Published:** April 26, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![School of Grappling Intuition & Instincts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/grappling_instincs-1024x576.jpg "School of Grappling Intuition › Sonny Brown")In this episode, I talk to Andy from the School of Grappling. We discuss the idea of developing grappling intuition and instincts, specifically through the use of constraints-based learning games and the gamification of grappling. The [School of Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/ "https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/") and website has many great articles that look at statistics of MMA and ADCC grappling exchanges and how to use systems and heuristics to [improve your grappling training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systems-theory-chaos-complexity-with-school-of-grappling/ "Systems Theory, Chaos & Complexity With School of Grappling"). ## Listen ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### Moving Away from Technique Focus to Developing Intuition Many coaches focus too heavily on techniques and collecting more techniques rather than developing true intuition in their students. However, great masters and high-level competitors act intuitively without conscious thought. Andy believes the end goal of training should be to foster this sense of intuition through experience. He argues techniques and concepts are useful tools but should not be the primary focus. Coaches should design experiences that allow students to gain intuition implicitly rather than explicitly teaching techniques. ### Using Games Instead of Drilling for More Effective Learning Instead of repetitive drilling, Andy proposes breaking down techniques into smaller games. This gamification approach makes training more playful and enjoyable. Appropriately designed games provide the right constraints so students develop functional intuition. The games feature measurable goals and rules that force students to find solutions, gaining valuable experiences. According to Andy, this allows faster development of skills compared to mimicking techniques shown by the coach. ### Importance of Letting Students Gain Their Own Experiences Andy stresses the need for students to gain experiences themselves, rather than solely mimic a coach. He believes coaches should thoughtfully design practice to provide students with the right experiences for learning. Breaking skills into smaller tasks allows successes while ensuring an appropriate level of challenge. This forces students to act, perceive, and make decisions, embedding the experiences intuitively. Andy contends this experiential approach develops true mastery faster than just pursuing idealized techniques. ### Training the Average Student vs the Full-Time Competitor Many top competitors excel through immense experience gained by training full-time. Andy argues their coaching methodology is less relevant than the sheer amount of practice. The average hobbyist training twice a week requires more guided, optimized training. He believes coaches should focus on maximizing the value from limited time on the mats. Gamification and intentional experiences are vital to accelerate proficiency for students who cannot train professionally. Andy emphasizes tailoring the training approach to the available time commitment of students. ## Key Takeaways - Grappling intuition develops through repeated exposure to representative problems, not by memorising more isolated techniques. - Constraints and small-sided games can create repetition while preserving the need to perceive, decide and adapt. - Concepts and techniques do not need to be treated as opposites. Well-designed games can connect both. - Coaches should create environments that help athletes discover useful solutions rather than trying to remove every failure in advance. ## Resources - [School of Grappling on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/) - [School of Grappling website](https://schoolofgrappling.com/) - [School of Grappling on systems theory, chaos and complexity](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-systems-theory-chaos/) ## School Of Grappling Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Welcome to episode number three of the Sonny Brown Breakdown, a podcast where we will discuss the training, teaching, health and education of mixed martial arts. In this episode, I talked to Andy from the School of Grappling, where we discuss his fascinating ideas about teaching and developing intuition and instincts in your grappling training. Now let's go to the podcast. Just give you a bit of background I came across your stuff, I believe it was on Instagram. I first saw the School of Grappling Instagram account and I was very intrigued by some of the ideas that you're putting across, some of the posts you're putting up, lots of work you've been putting into it, researching the statistics of ADCC and MMA, and I thought you had some excellent ideas and I thought it'd be great to get you on how to chat. And so, I'm just wondering, you know, with your School of Grappling page, what's the overall idea that you're trying to impart into people with School of Grappling, and just a bit of your own personal background with grappling and also your education background? **Andy:** Okay, first of all, what's up guys? Yeah, I think I'll start with my background first and I will not go too much in depth because I actually think what I'm talking about is way more important and way more interesting than I am. I'm basically just a physicist. I like to really analyze stuff. Obviously, that's why I did all the statistics and I have 20 years of grappling expenses, it all started with judo. And some of you may know, some of you don't, that in judo the rules changed a lot over the last, maybe 10 to 15 years and they got more and more restricted and competition got more and more specialized. So, I felt like I needed to go and learn something else. And probably like everybody I watched the UFC and I saw this whole Gracie story unfold and thought like, like, huh, just BJJ seems to be the shit. So, I started BJJ and sadly, I really got a bit disappointed because I felt like I went from one specialist thing to the another and because the stuff I learned in BJJ was literally nothing like grappling in MMA at this time. It's like, all these rules and so much got pulling the key stuff got weirder and weirder. So, I focused more on No-Gi grappling because I felt like this is a little bit closer to real grappling. Because like I said, I wanted to go to something which includes more than judo and not from one specialized thing to something different, which says specialize in another direction. So, I started moderating No-Gi and first, all the leg lock stuff when it came about and then I realized, ah, that's still not kind of all grappling has to offer and still doesn't really look like, like grappling in MMA at all. So, I studied a lot of wrestling, especially folks style wrestling, coach wrestling in the USA and then slowly, I felt like huh, yeah, now things get more like grappling. If you include all the stuff from judo, all the stuff from jujitsu, from No-Gi jujitsu and a lot of wrestling, I felt like this is actually what grappling is about, if you combine all the stuff. And this is kind of also what I tried to do with my page, I want to move the grappling community a bit more together because I feel like all the sports specialized in different directions like judo, jujitsu No-Gi jujitsu, submission only, Sambo, wrestling, freestyle wrestling, all this stuff. Everybody's specialized and actually that's a good thing, I feel like, because that's needed if you want to progress in a certain direction, but I feel like my role or what I'm trying to do is to bring it back together again to say like yeah, you know what, in the end, it's all grappling and maybe it's fun and we can all learn if we take look at it all and not just focus on our own stuff. That's like the first thing I tried to do with School of Grappling, also the cultural side and the historical side, because for me, grappling is a sport, obviously, and that's a really important part. Not so much in martial arts, like Parag Mickelson, also says, I think that's not so important. But it's also important for culture and stuff like this. I always felt like the Greeks showed how important this kind of sport like grappling or 05:41 \[inaudible\] can be on the society. Also, like if you take a look at Mongolia, for example, people just meet in the field and they grapple and they get like huge honors and thousands of, watches and all the stuff and yeah, that's always interests me, like, the cultural side also. And another thing I'm trying to do, is obviously all the statistics stuff I do, because I feel like yeah, many cultures have people in jujitsu, mostly, but also wrestling and judo, they all show stuff and claim stuff. But actually, most of it or some of it really is not supported by evidence at all. And I think smart people already knew this. So, for example, a lot of things you've seen in my statistics, I feel like don't really show new stuff for the smart guys, it proves that they were right, what they felt was anecdotally right at the time. Yeah, the third part and maybe the part which is dearest to my heart is, I want to really educate people how to learn grappling or jujitsu, because I feel like, grappling, it lost so much in the last years, but teaching to not feel like yeah, the way people coach and teach in, jujitsu and judo, especially, not so much in wrestling, I feel like it's really not up to date. **Sonny:** Yeah, that's certainly one of the things that drawn me to your work. And like you mentioned at the start there that you know, looking to [combine the different grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) arts of judo, wrestling and jujitsu and I know one thing I've seen, you use the hashtag a lot on your Instagram page of, wrestle, jujitsu and linking that into how things are being taught in jujitsu, like to just basically discuss what your current thoughts are on the state of pedagogy used in jujitsu as a whole and just, you know how you think things are currently being taught or work, how it can be improved? And what your what thoughts are on this at the moment? **Andy:** I want to start off with saying, I will be speaking about jujitsu, but I felt like the same is true for judo, especially because they're both a sport, but they're still kind of martial artsy. So, they didn't make the jump like wrestling and reached the point where it's just a sport but there's still so many components of martial arts and I feel like that's a bad thing actually. Because I feel like most people, competitors and coaches, they focus too much on techniques and that's really a modern thing. I feel like they, there's this misconception that you have to learn just enough or the right techniques and if you just know more techniques than the other guy, or the right ones, then at some point you will become skillful or become a [master of your art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/). So, naturally, coaches who believe this like, okay, I just have to collect all the techniques that work and if I know them better than somebody else and I can do them better then I'm skillful, I'm a master and I will win lots of competitions or train. Good people and yeah, if that's the goal, naturally, you will focus on teaching techniques, obviously, and I think that's really bad because yeah, we will reach that point soon. So, then some smarter guys, I feel like, especially Ryan Hall, or Rob 09:59 \[inaudible\], they introduced the jujitsu community to concepts and principles. So, basically what they are saying is, yeah, look, nobody can remember 10,000 techniques but you don't have to, you just have to know, like, the underlying concepts and principles behind the techniques and then you can basically just come up with the exclusive technique at the time. And I feel like that's a really, really, really big improvement to the first method. And it's a method I also use a lot. I think concepts and principles are really, really important because if you know concepts and principles, you can come up with heuristics or rules of thumb, which help decision making in really complex situations. They're way faster than techniques because you don't really have to think that much. And that's actually how I tried to transcend even that because, if you want to remember techniques, you actually have to do a little bit of thinking. And that's a bad thing because everybody knows fighting or grappling, you have to make decisions really, really fast and you have to multitask, and a lot of things are going on. So, what concepts, principles or rules of thumb do, they really, really lower the amount of thinking you have to do or the stuff you have to know. But actually, if you take a look at how really, really good math masters of any kind, it can be sports, it can be cooking, can be music, it can be arts, painting, anything, if you take a look at them, you realize most of them don't think at all. They reach to the point where they just do stuff, intuition, with their intuition. And that's actually something I have studied a lot. And I feel like that's what I bring to the table. I say, yeah, techniques, sure they are important, but we shouldn't focus on them at all. And I say concepts and principles, they are also important, they're actually much more important, and they are still a big part of my method. But the end goal should not be to teach techniques or concepts or to develop a sense of intuition in each student you have. And if that's your goal, and you're you really say, that's the premise I start with, then naturally all your training and all the classes you design look completely different because you have a different goal. And that's basically, the starting point of my whole method and why I think most people have it wrong with all this technique stuff. **Sonny:** Okay, that's, a fascinating way of looking at it. And I really, like agree with the angle being to train people's intuitions because that's whenever you're going against the good grappler that's, you can tell that they're not thinking, they're just moving. So, my question would then be, if, you know, we're shifting away from techniques to training concepts and principles, to maybe build that intuition, then how do we actually go about you know, working out what these principles are for grappling, which ones are the ones to teach that we should use and you know, how do we not just fall into the same trap of technique collection and just transfer that into say concept collection and figuring out which ones are the best to use and how to go about that? **Andy:** Yeah, I don't really use concepts and principles that much. And I tell you why because I think they are important for some people. For me, for example, I'm a nerd, I like to think about stuff. And, for me, concepts and principles have a lot, especially because I mean, I'm a physicist, I really, really know all this level of stuff. And that's simple stuff for me so I can really work with it. But I also came across many, many, many, many, many students who aren't like that. They just are really good movers; they like to move. They are a lot more embodied; they don't think as much. And actually, I think, to attain intuition, you don't need concepts and principles. They can help for some people, but you don't need them. And actually, I think that's, if you really think about it, if you think about some, I don't know football players, basketball players, grapplers, fighters, for me is what, always was pretty obvious that they are not that smart. And they really don't understand the concepts, and they really don't understand the principles, at least not in an explicit way. But for some reason, they just move so masterfully, they always do the right stuff. They, but they do it without much thought. And I think a really good example for this is in MMAs, Tony Ferguson. I think if you would discuss concepts and principles with him, yeah, that wouldn't go. But he still always knows what to do in the situation when it arises. And I think that's the point, that's where I want to go, what I want to reach in my students. I want to develop this intuition in everybody because I feel like this is literally the highest form of mastery. And another thing I want to talk about in this, actually everybody is a master. We always think, when we think about mastery, we think about stuff like sports and cooking or craftsmanship. But if you think about the stuff you do every day, most of it is intuition. If you, I don't know, if you cut a cucumber, if you turn the lights on, if you open the door, all that stuff, you don't think about it, you just do it because you experience the stuff so often and you actually have some sort of, you are emerged in a task, you know, it's like, this is the stuff, you need to do it for living. So, you naturally, I invested, and I think that's something which lacks, if you just tried to copy techniques and stuff. Yeah, I don't know if that was a big tangent. **Sonny:** No, no, that explains a lot for me. So, you're saying that, you know, we don't necessarily need to explicitly teach concepts to people, like they don't need to be able to know, to recite the concepts back to us, or the principles, you know, they don't need to be able to write them down, what they are, but we should be teaching in a way that they just, that they intuitively pick up those concepts and principles through practice, is that? **Andy:** Yeah, exactly. And I think like, what's really important for me, is, I want to get across that, there's no dogma, it's, everything is just a tool. I still use techniques; I still use concepts and principles. And so, for example, if you realize some students, they need concepts and principles, then use then for God's sake. And but also, you realize that many, many, many, many great athletes really, really work with this stuff because they're just not that kind of a guy, you know? So, what you said is absolutely correct. The goal is to develop intuition through exercises I tried to design. Because like, actually, what intuition really is, that's up for debate. Many people believe it's, and that's something I also wrote, it's something like an unconscious, heuristic or implicit rule of thumb in our body, which we can use without thinking about them. That's more like the stuff of 19:12 \[inaudible\], I talked about the psychologist. And, but there are many people, especially philosophers who actually believe, nah, intuition is something completely different, it's just, yeah, then stuff gets really complicated if you look at it from a phenomenological, psychological, philosophical side. But what everybody agrees on is that the only way you get intuition is first in experience, stuff you personally experience yourself. And so, what most coaches do I feel like is a try to teach in a way where they, either try to convey their own experiences and that's not a bad thing. I mean, they want to help the students obviously. What's even worse is when coaches try to convey stuff, they didn't experience themselves, so this is like the Bullshido Mcdojo style, like you have a script Master, he tells you do x and a and b. And so, you just mimic the stuff and teach your students and they mimic you. And so, it's basically an evolution of mimicry over generations. And I think this is actually the worst thing you could do. And what most coaches do, and I do too, from time to time, because I fail, is they try to convey their own experiences. And I feel like this is actually wrong. You have to realize that in order for your students to really learn, to really get a grip of something, they just have to experience it themselves. I feel like a really good example is, I personally, when I was a child, I really like to play with dangerous stuff like fire knives and so on and my mother always told me, don't do this, be careful, don't play with knife and stuff like this. And I always felt like yeah, whatever, I don't care. Until I once, I cut myself really bad, I still have the scar on my left hand. And from this day on, I really was careful with knives because I experienced something myself and I made an error. And obviously, I don't say every kid should cut him safe but what I'm saying is if you want to really remember stuff, like really remember stuff, you have to connect it to some perception and action or experience you had yourself at some point in your life. And the more of experiences which resemble similar situations, the better you get those similar situations. Yeah and I feel like many people now could maybe say, oh, yeah, so he's arguing, just roll all the time. And yeah, I think like, you can actually maximize the amount of experiences you get in a certain timeframe. And that's basically my method. **Sonny:** Okay, that's an interesting way of looking at it. I think it makes sense. Like, you know, you can tell someone that you know, you better have both arms in or both arms out when you're in someone's guard, or you're going to be at risk of a triangle choke. You can explain that but obviously, they're going to understand it a lot better if it actually happens to them and they'll have that that deeper understanding, which makes a lot of sense. So, then what would your ways of conveying that intuition or helping your students build that intuition, how do you go around go about doing that? **Andy:** So, for example, there are many ways, I think you could either start by, that's a bit more, if you give more guidance, for example, let's take something everybody can relate to. Let's say you want to work on back control, okay. So, what you could do, you could basically start with the technique, like most coaches do, so you maybe work a certain series of moves, for example, yeah, the guy turtles, you get a seat belt, you insert the first talk, you're breaking down, you insert the second hook, then you trap his arms and you choke him, right. So, you show them, you explain, maybe, the important concepts and stuff. And then you let them, and actually, I feel like this whole repetition thing is just stupid because either I really work with smart people, but I feel like if I show them a really, a sequence like this, everybody can do it after three times, five times, ten times, but there's no need to do it like 100 times. So, when I have the feeling like, buddy, gets the technique kind of, or the sequence, I say, alright, let's move on. So, the next goal would be to say, okay, now everybody has like, an idea what to do. They don't, they cannot do it perfectly, and they aren't masters at it at all, but they have a goal in mind, and that's really important. So, now we start with little mini bearings or games, like you break it down, so you work certain skills. For example, you tell, you say, listen, okay now, you know what the goal is, let's start with the seatbelt and we do a little game, just try to get both hooks in. So, then the people can play with it, a person gets a seat belt, then they play around. I also tell my students, kind of regulate the intensity, if you know the guy doesn't get it at all, maybe do a little bit of less resistance. If you feel like he gets the hooks in too easy, do a little more resistance. So, it's not so much sparing in the sense of fighting, it's more like playing. I want people to play around with a certain situation. And maybe they do it like five minutes. One guy, five minutes, the other guy and I feel like it's always really, really interesting if you try that yourself, how fast people learn small little details, if they just repeat the task again and again and again and they fail, they fail again and they try something else. They come up with little details, if I would have shown them all these details in the technique before, they would have been overwhelmed, but this way, they just do it intuitively because they try. So, for example, after that, I would do another game and say, okay, and now the stuff from back control, and one guy tries to escape and you just try to hold him there, so no chokes, nothing. So, you just work on the control for example. And then one guy tries to escape and then what I often tell students, so for example, if you want to work your, keeping him in bear control, I say, okay 20 seconds, you go hard on him, don't let him escape. And then after that, give, the other person a chance to work his escapes. So, then you lower the resistance a little bit so he can get out, but with a lot of struggle, so it shouldn't be easy. And so, and then you can progress like you [train sub-skills of a certain skill](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/), you develop game for it. And at some point, if you feel like people get competent in these parts in the sub skills, not in the whole sequence, but in a certain sequence. For example, then use start adding the sequences together, sorry. The easiest thing would be, okay, goal, you start with seatbelts, your goal is to get a rear naked choke, right? So, that would be another game. So, you don't start in back control but with a seatbelt. And you can get, develop games, however you want, if you know what you're doing, it's basically simple. You just define a goal, you define certain constraints like, yeah, don't do this, don't do that. And, but the important thing is, I will always want to work with a task. So, it's not like I tell my students, do this. I don't tell them at all what they should do, I tell them, solve this problem. And how you solve this problem, actually, I don't care. But the trick is, the constraints of the of the task or the game are set so they will do the right stuff, right? So, that's a bit trickier. It's like the goal is to get them somewhere, to do something, but you don't, you're not allowed to tell them how. So, you have to design games and stuff, which forces a certain behavior after some time, but the point is, they themselves felt acted and they made decisions and they gained experiences because they acted and perceived and it's not like, the coach showed me, right. And that's more like a guided approach when I have something in mind, like, a control, for example. But actually, you can also do, sometimes you don't even need that. So, for example, how I teach the wrestling stance, right, is I felt like if you want somebody to teach him footwork or stance, and you say, tell them, yeah, you stand with this foot in front and with this width and you bend a little bit, but not too much, and then your arms should be like this. And a thing like stands can get really, really, really complicated really, really quickly. Because a new student has to think about all this stuff. So, what I like to do, I like to let them play a game. And the game is really simple. It's like, you have to touch the knees of the other guy, so if you would do that, only this rule, and this goal, so touching the knees of the other guy and defending. Then obviously people would stand really, really bend forward and that's actually what happens. If you try that, if you play this game, people will stand really bent forward. So, I introduced another rule. And I said, okay, so if the hands or anything, but the soles of your feet touch the ground, you lose the point. So, if you make the other guy touch the ground with anything but his feet, you get a point. So, what, and when you have these two rules, you actually realize people will automatically have a certain stance, which give them mobility because they have to defend people tapping their knees, but it also fixes the bent posture because if they're been too much, well, people just snap you down and your hands touch the floor, right, or your knees. And what I really realized is that with this game, I can teach a beginner who never did martial arts, maybe not a perfect, but a decent and functional stance in like two minutes. And they don't have to think about it. It's just like, they had a task, they had a goal and they self-regulated themselves to achieve that goal. without much thought, it's just like, oh, fuck, he tapped my knee, I better do this now, oh fuck, I touched the floor, I better don't stand that bend forward and stuff like this. So, it's nestled in experiences, right? And I'm always amazed how far, how fast I can teach a stance like this, it's mind boggling. **Sonny:** Very interesting. So, that's, I mean, it sounds like it's, you know, a form of say, just positional sparring, but not really. Because, like, I think sometimes I myself, will, you know, if I teach a half guard pass, I'll make sure students you know, do some starting rounds in, you know, from half guard. But I know even in that case, that's like a simplified version because, you know, sometimes they'll start there and then they won't ever be able to use the past that we've shown. So, you're kind of focusing on, like setting the right constraints and you know, making the right set of rules that the students will have that level of failure to enable them to learn the moves, or the techniques, enough, in a faster way. Is that kind of close? **Andy:** Yes. Yes, that's close. I think like, if you don't think so much about sparring or rolling, think about it like games, right? A game has rules and goals. And so, that's all you need. You need rules. You need goals. If you actually use the term game, for some reason people automatically are more flowy, they aren't that tense, right? If you tell them guys, we'll play a game, they just play. But if you tell them we do position of sparring now, people for some reason, you can do the same stuff, but if you tell them, it's sparring now, they will be a lot more tense, and it will be more ego and stuff. So, I feel like it's a little bit of gamification, right. And I think that's a really important part because then people think like, yeah, I'm not working a competition situation, no, I'm just playing a game. If I don't get a point, who cares, right? **Sonny:** Yeah, that makes sense in just to, you know, the gamification making it enjoyable and playful, because I'm thinking, say we show, passing or just opening close guard, it's one thing to, just put people in someone's guard, say we'll open their closed guard, that's the role of the sport and open the guard pass. But we know that's very difficult for anyone to pull off against a completely hundred percent resisting opponent, it's going to be hard whereas at certain times it might take minutes at least to actually pull that off. So, I think that makes sense what you're saying to figure out ways that we can reduce that bigger action, open guard and pass it down into smaller little chunks. Would you say like--? **Andy:** Yeah, absolutely. **Sonny:** To work out the smaller parts of that and then make games out of those. **Andy:** Yeah, I think the important thing is like, I mean, we are coaches. So, hopefully we know which stuff works and which doesn't. So, it's not like I'm sitting there and I'm just like, trying to. It's not like, I just see what comes up. I always have stuff in mind prior, right? So, I know what the behavior I want to see is, but I have to find ways to kind of trick people into that behavior. I don't tell them; I want you to do this. But I set the constraints in a way that they will automatically do it after some time, because there's only two- or three-ways stuff actually works. So, for example, one thing you can achieve that is by like you said, making the tasks smaller and smaller. So, if it's too abstract, it's like, for example, you start and have no grips or anything and you tell them people sweep the other guy. That's like, a fairly complex problem right there, maybe 1000. **Sonny:** That's a pretty common way currently of doing it, right? **Andy:** Yeah, absolutely. But if you want people and that's fine for advanced students, if you know half guard, that's fine, right? But if you want to teach half guard, let's say something I really focus on in half guard is I tell people, okay, for example, you start with an under hook. You already have your hooks switched, like in the Quota Guard from Lucas Lake right. And now the goal is to build up to a dogfight. No, it's not a sweep, it's just almost too easy, it's like, I mean, you haven't known the neat twist, or the hooks switched. So, you just have to build up to a dogfight. And that's the goal is to build up to the dock, find the roots, well, you start in this position and then people will actually succeed at it because it's not that complex anymore, and that's really important. People have to succeed a lot of times, but they also have to experience some failures. So, it's a balance of the tasks shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't also be too hard. So, for example, if people get that, I can get them to building up to a dogfight I do another game where they start in the dogfight and I tell them okay, now you guys are both stuck in a dogfight now. Sweep the other guy and take his back and the other person should defend or escape, then we can do another game. For example, you start in half guards, and the game is, the top and the bottom guy, it should pump the floor under hooks. So, it's just if you get to on-hook, you get a point start again, you get an on-hook, you get a point start again. So, it's like you can, this way they can fight for a certain goal in one minute. I don't know how many times you can come in and pump in one minute, maybe five times each, depending on how good you are. And then after people made all these games, so they made many experiences, getting an under hook, switching the hook, building up to a dogfight. What do I do when I'm at a dogfight? If people have succeeded in the small tasks, then we can do positional sparring from half guard, because people actually, they already had some complexity and some resistance but in a way, where they could handle the resistance and complexity because it wasn't overwhelming, right. And you can do that step by step, you don't have to go from I get an under-hook to half guard sparring. So, you can, what I like to do is, I do many small parts. And then I take two parts together, for example, getting an under hook and switching the hooks for the neat with for example after Lucas Lake Guard, then I do build to the dogfight and sweeping from the bug dog fight is a new sparring again. So, you kind of chunk things together again until the big picture arises. I don't know if you get what I mean. **Sonny:** Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. So, I'm looking at it from the perspective of, we could have, positional sparring being common, already, but this is, figuring out the ways, what you're suggesting is more than just positional sparring. And it seems like it's, the ways to break it down. So, there's even, the micro positions or the little micro battles and building out a way up from there. **Andy:** Yeah, and the point is, for example, it's always still a task, right. I don't tell them, okay, I show you know how I build up from half guard to get to the dogfight and I put my hand here and then I make space. I push it forward so I can get my bottom knee out and stuff like that. I don't, yeah, maybe I give cues for some people who need some help. But it's not like I tell them mimic me, it's like, that's your start, that's your end. Figure it out, right. And people will figure it out. If the task is small enough, people will figure it out, I can guarantee you, if they don't figure it out, it just means the task is still too complex. So, you have to make it smaller. **Sonny:** That makes sense. So, it's interesting. It really links with that building then of concepts, just through this chunking it down, this gamification and making it smaller, because, I mean, there has been discussion in the Grappling community for a while, like what's better, you know, technique or drilling or concepts? And it seems like you're putting forward the idea of it's not a binary choice. It's not it's not drilling or concepts. It's another option of gamification that kind of combines both of those elements together where you're doing the reps over, but you're doing the reps of the concepts in time. **Andy:** Yes, I feel like this is like some buzzwords or sayings like this repetition without repetition, right. Or like another really smart saying, I forgot who said it right now, it's, don't repeat the same solution again and again, but solve the same problem again and again. That's basically it. I feel like it is reading in jujitsu. It's more like, okay, here is the perfect form, right? It's like, some guy with a black belt shows you the perfect technique, the perfect form of something and then you try to mimic it and mimic it until it looks exactly like that. And I think that's catastrophic. And also, that's not how wrestlers drill, drilling in wrestling for some reason, probably because it's a bit more dynamic on the feet. It's not that rigid, that's this rarely. If wrestler drills, it's always a little bit more playfulness, a little bit more activity from your partner. It's not that fixed, I feel like, at least that's my experience. Yeah. **Sonny:** Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that importance of you making it playful and making it fun while getting those repetitions in of the repetitions is just solving the same problem, not a set way to actually solve it. And that's interesting, because that I think people will like when you say it, kind of understand, that makes a lot of sense. But I don't think there's many people out there who, explicitly have come up with a set of games for Grappling, that is like the okay, these are all the little games that can be played. I think that's a very unique way of looking at things with a lot of avenues to explore. **Andy:** Yeah, that's the point because I actually want to encourage people not to mimic myself, because that's actually the thing I'm fighting against. Right. **Sonny:** Okay. Yeah. **Andy:** I want to give people a sense, like, okay, that's how I do stuff because I have a different goal. And if you understand what I'm saying, you can come up with all kinds of games, yourself, and even depending on the XX want you to write if you've trained for IBJJF it would be different games, if you've trained for MMA it would be different games, but the point is, nest your learning in tasks and in games and not in the wrong sense of perfection of a certain form, because I feel like this literally does not exist at all. And that's just what much martial arts lead into, I feel like it's like this real Zen like or Eastern notion of the perfect form and practicing the one kick 1000 times and all this just kind of romantic view about martial arts. And if you take a look at a real fight at a real match, the whole stuff is dirty, the stuff is messy, but it's functional, it just works. And if you try to get perfect at one move, what I argue is that means you invest too much time in getting really good at a really specific time thing, which means you probably suck at many things. **Sonny:** That could be positive could be possible too. So, I mean, that idea of the perfect form if we want to, you know, if we look at the top people in the sport or, sometimes in MMA as well, like the names that come to mind for me is, like a George St. Pierre, Marcella Garcia or any of John Danaher students really is these guys at the moment would probably, say like, my gut feeling is that their technique is just, they're getting by with superior technique or, their techniques are that much better I still, you know, maybe that's just the way that you know, with the conventional way of thinking, but when we look at the results that they're currently getting, they're still the ones winning. So, I guess the traditional way of thinking would be that, okay, well, they're the ones winning, we should copy their techniques that they're doing. If we still get a lot of success with that, what's the harm you think in, in taking that route? **Andy:** So, what you're saying is like, this guy's master certain techniques, so why shouldn't we just focus on these techniques right? **Sonny:** Yeah, well, you know, just copy the-- **Andy:** I mean, there's some point to it. Actually, yeah, I don't, like I said, it's all tools. It's not like I say, I don't teach techniques, because I only want to intuition, that that's not right. Because I feel like it really depends on many, things. For example, that's a really big criticism I have for the community, how they think about learning and coaching. For some reason, they always think that competitors are really good learners or teachers. Because I personally feel like because intuition, and if you train twice a day, six times a week, you will get this intuition no matter what you do. Let's take a look at some of these guys. They train obsessively for years and decades. Of course, they will be fucking awesome, great loss fighters. Of course, that's not the point, the point is, like me, I have a lot of people, they work full time, they are lawyers, they are engineers, they train twice a week for one and a half hour. They cannot get to that level of GSP or Marcello Garcia. Well, they don't get there anyways, but they don't get there with the same way people learned it right, because of the sheer amount of sacrifice they made, the sheer amount of work they put in. What I'm arguing is, if you train twice a day, every day for five years and you are not great at what you are doing, you must really suck. **Sonny:** Yeah. **Andy:** So, that's not my standard. My standard is like, I teach people who train twice a week for two hours. Because that's actually the hard problem of coaching in my opinion **Sonny:** Yeah, well the majority of people are going to be in that situation, which is a good point, most people don't end up competing, most people are training for fun so that I can see how that will then cater, if we're making those games, and the smaller game making, and those smaller games and making it fun, that's actually going to cater to a wider audience and then the competitors if they want can, you tailor it more to them if they have to go down a different path. **Andy:** And the other thing is like, I speak out of my ass. And maybe that's a bit arrogant to say, but somebody buy DVDs, or instructions I watch of high-level competitors. And I feel like, dude, you don't understand what you're talking about. And obviously this guy would wreck me. I mean, I'm a hobbyist also, this guy would kill me on the mat. But not because he understands the biomechanics, the concepts, the principles better, not because he's a better teacher, not because he's a better learner. Because he made a sacrifice I did not make, the sacrifice was training full time every day, and sacrificing a lot of things. Many people are not willing to sacrifice, and I think we always have to keep that in mind, that's a big part of getting good at anything. That's what I was arguing with the intuition anyways, it's just you experience, right. **Sonny:** Yeah, that makes sense. So, like, I've had the thoughts before that, you know, obviously the people training, at Danaher would probably if they are training full time, they'd probably be just as good if they go on any of the other top coaches if they're that committed. And I mean, there's probably some people I think in everyone's gym where you just think, well, okay, this, person will probably be good no matter where they go, because they've got that commitment to training and they're putting in the hours and, they're going to be good no matter who they're training under. And I guess then that that makes sense that they've learnt not so much how to be able to repeat those techniques or concepts or principles, but they've just learned through hours and just that repetition of solving problems and failing to solve it. **Andy:** Just think about it, if the average class, let's say, just to simplify stuff is one-hour technique, drills and repetition, one hour rolling, okay? So, if we just assume that these guys learn nothing in the first part of technical training, if they train twice a day, six times a week, they still have 12 hours of rolling every week. That's the amount of rolling that hobbyist maybe gets in a month or so. Right. So, we should not over value the way these guys train. Obviously, not all of them, I know for a fact that many coaches out there are doing good work, right. I'm not saying, I have figured it out and the community sucks. I'm saying, what I see is that many people who do it kind of wrong, but some still do a good job, obviously. For example, I listened to a lot of podcasts of Damien Maya lately, and actually seems like he's doing stuff fairly common to how I do it. And he actually said, in a podcast, I think it was, I don't remember when the podcast was, but he actually said, the way he teaches now is completely different from how he learned and he uses a lot more of the stuff I'm talking about a little bit more of many positional sparring, playful, aiming stuff like this. And that I felt like was really interesting, like the guy who many argue is the greatest grappling, MMA and who obviously achieved this point. By the way, he trends argues that he doesn't teach the way he learned in the beginning. Right. **Sonny:** And I think that's the area of interest is that, you know, a few people are talking about and is coming to the forefront because, it is this, you know, like a change from how everyone was taught which, my gut feeling is that I guess how the Jujitsu was originally taught, was really people were keeping secrets, and it was still, this secretive arms, I'll show you this and but don't show this, this is the secret move. And that's, from that martial arts background, I think where the idea is you just have to have the secret weapon and they never-- **Andy:** Yeah, it's like that, this notion that the master or the Sensei, he knows something you don't know. And I feel like this is just plain false. Like, if you take a look at great musicians, they just have so much experience that they played so many years. They just act intuitively; they just have the skill. It's not like they have a trick in their sleeve, right. It's embodied in their being, it's like, they care so much, it's just part of who they are. And I think like, it's important that we have to realize if we, our students want to achieve this kind of mastery, we all have to learn that it's not about knowing certain things. It's just about immersing ourselves in the task, getting familiar with all the situations that arise again and again, experiencing it over and over again until we get a kind of embodied sense of the situation, right. **Sonny:** That makes a lot of the comparison with music because I was thinking then it's kind of like, when people start jamming in a band and you've seen when a solo ends or something and the guitarist will just look at the drummer and they have that connection of just putting in the hours being able to sense just know and sense what's going on. **Andy:** Yeah, and the goal basically is, like I said, people like Damon, Maya, Marcel Garcia, Gordon Ryan, all these people, they have the experience because they trained so much, obviously, and probably, I don't know, but I guess the training at the basement of Ghana is also very good. So, the combination of good training and experience of course, they are really good. 99% of the Jiu-Jitsu community are not people who train all the time. It's like, how do I get this? How do I increase the experience they get? How do I find a mix? How do I find a way? So, they don't have to practice for 10 years straight until they are somehow competent. How can I increase all this? And that's what I'm trying to do. It's not like I'm trying to skip stuff, it's not like I'm saying, yeah, I just have to [teach them the right techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/). No, I'm saying it's a process, they have to get the experience, they have to develop sense of situations, they have to get intuition. But how can I speed it up a little bit? How can I make these experiences a bit more powerful? Or maybe how can I get more experiences in a certain timeframe? Or maybe how can I give them the right experiences, right? It's like, I mean, I feel like I'm an experienced dealer. I give them experiences, which help them to get better, and I maybe somehow can guide their learning by designing a practice which gives them more experiences and the right experiences. So, they can learn faster, but there's no shortcut. **Sonny:** Yeah, yes, certainly, still no shortcuts. But, I agree with what you're saying and if we go to the concepts, verse drilling debate that happened, I was always thinking, Well, you know, if you have someone who trains twice a week, just a regular person, as well as a hobbyist, then drilling might be a more efficient use of time and that, just get some reps in here, some of the basic foundational moves, just rip it out, use your two hours a week in the most efficient time, in the most efficient way, but I think it makes sense that breaking just that drilling down even further to that, not drilling techniques but drilling and repeating those experiences. It makes a lot of sense to how people can pick up. **Andy:** And another thing, I think it's really important, it's not like a master. And that's the word I use a lot because that's what I'm interested in, right, mastery. And of any kind, because you can actually learn a lot of a lot about mastery in combat sports, if you take a look at mastery in music or whatever, it's like, not everything you do is intuitive, right. There are still situations maybe where you experience something new, while you have to rely on these concepts or principles by your aesthetics. Maybe if you are in a match, or in a fight, there are strategic and tactical elements you have to think about. So, what intuition also does is, it frees up your mind. If you don't have to think about the stuff you do all the time, then you have more time to think about maybe not more important, but the stuff that is special to the situation, the strategy, the tactics. Maybe a problem arises you're not familiar with so you can think about your aesthetic or your rule of thumb, but and that's why I still teach them right. **Sonny:** Yeah, I like that way of thinking about that intuition. So, you're not spending that time thinking that's what another jerk have made in the past, while you're thinking, say someone's thinking about a concepts, will it be too late, have I already hit the move that I've drilled 1000 times? But if it's an intuitive thing, then that makes sense that you you're not thinking about a concept or principle. It's just when you-- **Andy:** Yeah, and I mean, I found it somewhat, I read how far Philosophy and Science, and I say that as someone who studied both, drifted away from everyday life, right, people can relate to a lot of these things. And that's what I'm saying, is just to think about what you do every day. The stuff I'm talking about you experience from the moment you wake up, if you drive in a car, driving a car. I mean, in Germany, everybody drives with gear, right? So, you have to do a lot of stuff. You have to shift the gears, you have to look at the traffic, you do all this stuff, it's incredibly complex. But you don't do it by consciously thinking about it. And if you would, you would probably do a crash, because you drive the car you don't think about it, you do everything right. You listen to music, you talk maybe to your wife who's sitting next to you, and you do all the stuff without much conscious thought, it's not like a new thing. This is the natural mode of how most people do most of the things they do in life. And, for example, if I'm a scientist, if I work scientifically, that's a really small part of my life. It's a method, it's a tool, it's a technique, it's not what being a human is really about. We're not robots, we're not like, yeah, this is my perfect system algorithm. It's like no, we are mostly actually Intuitively with almost everything we do. **Sonny:** And it makes sense that we are changing the train from an arms race or collection of techniques to just that inbuilt experience and more time for intuition. I think that's a very interesting way of looking at things and I think we can explore that a lot more into the future. I think there's a lot of room to discuss this even further, but it's been a fascinating conversation. Is there anything you'd like to finish up on, that we haven't touched on? **Andy:** Yeah. Of course, I feel like what we didn't touch today, but maybe we'll do at another time if you like, is the whole notion of systems and system thinking. Because what I don't want people to think is like, this guy doesn't [teach any systems, this guy doesn't teach any techniques,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) and that would be wrong. I just feel like the overall goal for me is not to teach a technique or a certain system, I still use them and actually, systems are some. The other thing I'm really interested about, it's the one thing, is all this intuition and mastery stuff, the other thing is systems. So yeah, I still use them, I can already say so much. It's not all intuitive, but a lot of things. **Sonny:** Beautiful. That's, if you'd be happy to come back on we do a part two, I think that's a perfect lead in to, to have another discussion about the systems, because we've had a great discussion here about intuition. **Andy:** Yeah, for sure sounds fun. **Sonny:** Excellent. So, just finishing up, is there anything you would like to or just mention how people can get in touch with you or how they can follow you. And I know you've got a couple of projects in the works you might want to mention. **Andy:** Yeah, so obviously, my name is Andy, my tech on Instagram is at School of Grappling. I mostly do stuff there, I have a Twitter account, but I don't really get Twitter, it's not for me. So, I basically just use it to share some interesting links, since you cannot share links on Instagram, which is really bad. And I also have a homepage, schoolofgrappling.com, where it's more like, in addition to the stuff I write on Instagram, where I can maybe get more in depth, write bigger articles, embed some videos and stuff. And I will probably do more in the future on my homepage. And the next projects, yeah, just, you will see, **Sonny:** We will see, well hopefully everyone's interested now after-- **Andy:** I can already tell you that. I feel like the ADCC studies I have done, right now, I'm not that interested in Jiu-jitsu or doing statistics for jujitsu. So, I'm currently focusing a lot on Grappling and MMA. **Sonny:** Okay, yeah, because that was something else that you've done a lot of with work on statistics, and maybe we'll save that discussion for next time. **Andy:** God's willing **Sonny:** And maybe we can do a third one as well. **Andy:** Yeah. I'd love to. It's been very insightful, insightful conversation. Because Yeah, I really feel like this is something that it's pushing boundaries in that there's a lot more to, to develop because as you said, it's not the way things have generally been [taught in the martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/) as a whole. So, it opens up a lot of room for development. And that's exciting. So, yeah, thank you very much for having this discussion. And we will make sure that, we will chat again and about systems. And thank you very much. **Sonny:** Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks for listening. See you. ![School of Grappling Intuition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/schoolofgrappling_promo.jpg "schoolofgrappling_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Alexander Volkanovski Interview On Crafting Comfort When Uncomfortable & Adapting for Victory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/alexander-volkanovski-interview-comfort/) **Published:** July 6, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Alexander Volkanovski Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/volko_podcast-1024x576.jpg "Alexander Volkanovski Interview › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Alexander Volkanovski**, UFC Featherweight Champion, about building world-class MMA skills from a small coastal gym, why getting *comfortable being uncomfortable* sits at the heart of his preparation, and the drills, mindset and community that lifted him from Wollongong rugby fields to UFC gold ## Listen ### Apple [![](https://podfollow.com/img/buttons/apple-podcasts.svg)](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/crafting-comfort-when-uncomfortable-adapting-for-victory/id1476963733?i=1000483055732) ### Spotify [![](https://podfollow.com/img/buttons/spotifyv2.svg)](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0MzUHCaE77qNXgVtCVxblS) ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### Training method - comfort in discomfort Volkanovski’s preparation revolves around extreme fatigue so adversity feels ordinary on fight night. Years of three-round “spider drills” at Freestyle Fighting Gym recreate chaos: fence runs, throws, assault-bike sprints and live grappling with fresh partners every minute. The sessions push athletes to the brink and force technical decisions while lungs burn. He picked up the habit on rugby pitches where relentless effort became second nature and still sneaks extra rounds during fight week because the mental edge of feeling “always ready” outweighs temporary fatigue. ### Wall work and wrestling integration Freestyle schedules two standalone fence-grappling classes each week, capped by a competitive King-of-the-Wall round-robin. Volkanovski believes dominating clinches against the cage is non-negotiable in modern MMA; repeated situational rounds engrain the subtle hip-switches, head-position battles and knee-line escapes that decide takedowns in title fights. The drill’s pace also conditions athletes to explode off the fence late in a round when lactic acid peaks. ### Collaborative training culture Coach Joe Lopez keeps the mats open to visiting fighters every Saturday. Sharing rounds, as long as visiting coaches come too, brings new looks and lifts everyone. Volkanovski insists on working with all levels: drilling ideas on beginners polishes details before testing against elite peers. Light-hearted banter, not ego, sets the tone so experimentation feels safe and progress compounds. ### Adapting through adversity Two days before facing Darren Elkins he tore rib cartilage yet still made weight, modified his striking to protect the injury and won. Earlier in Guam he beat a hometown opponent who had secretly oiled his body; after slipping off submissions he stayed composed, wore him down and forced officials to intervene. Obstacles, he says, are just puzzles to solve—in camp and mid-fight. ### Fast-track mindset to the belt From regional shows to the UFC he always called for the toughest names available, Corey Nelson, Chad Mendes, José Aldo,because hard fights moved him up quickest. He chose to “earn” the strap rather than angle for soft matchmaking and still treats every round in training as a title defence against the next contender. ## **Timestamps** **\[03:22\] Setting a good wrestling base through rugby** **\[05:40\] The "all chaos" SPYDA workout** **\[08:49\] King of the wall drill** **\[12:42\] Wrestling in Illawarra** **\[16:59\] Why Alexander opted for home training to overseas** **\[21:50\] Joe Lopez's contribution** **\[25:52\] Wallwork sessions** **\[28:25\] Sparring day at the Freestyle Fighting Gym** **\[30:51\] Alexander's fight against Jamie Mullarkey** **\[32:00\] Alexander's source of motivation and belief** **\[35:07\] Going for more than just getting there** **\[36:36\] Advice to young fighters** **\[39:20\] Transition to City Kickboxing in New Zealand** **\[43:17\] Head clash with Brad** **\[46:32\] Being adaptable in the game** **\[49:35\] Fighting in the PXC** **\[54:07\] Alexander's advice to his younger self** ## Key Takeaways - Volkanovski deliberately trains in uncomfortable situations so pressure becomes familiar rather than surprising. - Adaptability is built through varied preparation, problem-solving and a willingness to change when a plan stops working. - A strong local team and long-term coaching relationships can support world-class development without needing a glamorous training environment. - Confidence comes from preparation and repeated exposure to difficult situations, not from trying to avoid them. ## Resources - [Alexander Volkanovski on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/alexvolkanovski/) - [Alexander Volkanovski on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexVolkanovskiOfficial) - [Freestyle MMA](https://www.freestylemma.com.au/) ## Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Alex Volkanovski the champ’s here, how is it going, mate? **Alexander Volkanovski:** I'm good, I'm good my man. How are you, how have you been? **Sonny:** Not too bad mate, not too bad. Just getting through everything and just charging ahead my tenacity, that's how we do it. **Alexander:** Good stuff. That's it, the way it's going to be **Sonny:** Thanks for joining me for a chat mate. It's been a long time that you've been on the scene in Australia. I was thinking back to the first time that I actually saw you and it was second fight back in 2013 against Reagan Wilson. I was in Reagan's corner. I've got a confession to make, mate, I've got a confession to you, to Joe Lopez, to the people of Wollongong, and I was the only one who thought this so blame's all on me, but when I saw the name Windang I legitimately thought traditional [martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) school. I was thinking Windang these guys must be doing Wing Chun. **Alexander:** All right, yes? **Sonny:** That's what I thought. \[laughter\] **Alexander:** There you go. **Sonny:** Little did I know. I didn't know Windang was a suburb, I didn't-- \[laughs\] **Alexander:** Also, I get you now, oh really. **Sonny:** You know what I mean? **Man:** He actually thought that was a gym school. **Sonny:** I thought that was the gym. I'm not from Wollongong. **Man:** Sorry, the gym name. **Sonny:** I thought that sounds a bit like Windang, Wing Chun, okay? These guys must be doing traditional martial arts. I was luckily, Mike, the coaches of Reagan, and Reagan himself didn't think that, that was me on my own. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Obviously, that wasn't the case mate, because you came out there and you did some-- Reagan was a decent bloke we were thinking pretty highly of him and you came out there and did some excellent wrestling, and then look you're straight just continued all the way so wondering-- **Alexander:** Yes, mate. ### A Wrestling Base From Rugby **Sonny:** I know you have your rugby league background and you went into wrestling. I was wondering would you consider that rugby league background like a traditional Australian martial art, would that have given you a bit of that base? **Alexander:** Oh, yes man. Bases it as a Florida but being a Florida I've been martial art anything. A lot of the time especially in contact sports, you need to be sometimes a little bit different. Again I was a little short, 4'6 and I was playing prop and I had to run at these big men, if that doesn't make it tough, I don't know what does so you're still building-- Again, martial arts is so much more skill involved and all that, but at the end of the day, hard work, being strong and having that grit that goes a long way. The fact that I've always had that grit and been used to the big boys, been used to the hard work, getting into training, and obviously, I guess you could say I always knew how to fight, but then I was a quick learner. Being able to know hard work and know hard training and just being a gamer, you set yourself as a good base like you said, you're going to have a good base going into training. Then if you just make that who you are then when I do camp I can't not be fit, it would be impossible for me to go in underprepared. It's just who I am, that's who I am now. Because of them early days of just-- That's all I know. That's all I know even when I'm told by my coaches to pull it up a bit, it's just hard for me. I know it's very important sometimes you need, "Oh, just chill." As in when I talk about some days you just need to turn it down because say you got a spider workout crazy the next day. Let's just do this as a low-intensity, just drilling, I want to get more of a sweat out and I just want to work, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to knock your head off I just mean, I want to get a higher pace and I want to keep doing more and more and they're like, "Hey relax," or they even told me, "Oh, that's enough, you can go home." I said, "No, I'll do a couple more." Even fight week, I've just got Joe Lopez, the coach is telling me to, "Ease up you've done enough for today." It's just who I am. ### The Chaos of a "Spyda" Workout **Sonny:** Oh, definitely and we've seen that as you've come up through the ranks over here, I don't think anyone would doubt your hard work or not. I just heard you mentioned this spider drill because it's something I've heard that you see kickboxing boys do. Maybe you can start off just explaining what that drill is, but I heard a story that apparently there was one time where they said stop the spider drill, and you just kept spear tackling everyone and wouldn't stop. What's the go with that? **Alexander:** Because it's, man, it's chaos. Honestly, that workout is chaos and is meant to be chaos. It's a flight simulator, so however long the fight goes for, right? If you're doing three, five-minute rounds, it's three, five-minute rounds of absolute chaos. When I say chaos, I mean, you are going to go to breaking point 100%. You can't smash this session, you can't make this easy, it's not how it works. You are going to start buckling, you are going to struggle to get back to your feet in between the reps that you need to do, you are going to lose in lots of sweats, you against five people and they're not trying to smash you, but it's just very, very, very high intensity, is lactic, is bodyweight flowing and you've got to use strength, it's techniques still, you've got to go do more work. Is so much involved and whilst everyone is just going nuts, especially when you're getting close to a fight, the atmosphere is incredible, that's a big part. We want to get that adrenaline kicking as well. Yes, that's the whole point, like in a flight simulator. We're trying to hit all angles. It really does hit in and I couldn't even hear the timer, so I'm going and then Joe is like, "10 seconds," and I'm tackling and people are walking. Then, "Five seconds," and then I can't hear, you can see the video and that's happening. Then he calls time but like I said everyone's going nuts \[cheering\]. Because I'm picking up, because I knew I was getting close so I just started picking the boys up because it's my last fight before I fought. I'm picking the boys up and dumping them like if that was the last one. They would just walk in and you just need to speed tackle them, and they just keep going, it's just that. I'm lifting him, the boys are just-- The teammates and they run in and they're just going absolutely literally nuts, so you can't hear nothing. Then everyone's coming to celebrate \[cheering\] I took one down, everyone's laughing "Aw he took them down". Then more people come to celebrate. I'm taking more people-- I literally took down two people after the time was done just because I couldn't hear nothing. They were just coming in like, "Yeah, we've done it. Game's over." Once you've done your last spider, back and the rest is easy mate. That's what it's like, everyone like, "Yes, you did it." I'll just spearing them. It was good, it was good fun. Not fun, I wouldn't say fun. It's good fun to look at now. **Sonny:** It's good moment to reflect back on. **Alexander:** Good moment. Yes, that's the word. ### The King Of The Wall Drill **Sonny:** That's nice. One of the other drills I see you guys doing and over in City Kickboxing, and maybe it started at Wollongong as well is the king of the wall drill. You got a little trophy that you guys are winning. It's a perpetual trophy, I think. Can you explain to me what that drill involves and how you guys have come up? **Alexander:** Yes. Well, they bring that they had a belt like City Kickboxing, we've always done king of the wall, king of the mat like wrestling. I guess there are a lot of gyms will do King of the-- They just demand that whoever's winner stays in top thing. We usually do it with wrestling and war work we've done that for a while. City Kickboxing do it and they do with a heap of them. They get a few people on the wall. They'll get around five, six people on the wall where however many there is that people just go in and then the people with the most rounds or they went through the most amount of people get the trophy. It's hard work mate, like I said, especially when you're competing, not just competitive, when you're reasonably good as well, you're winning. Everything's a battle, even if you're not winning it's a grind. Sometimes there's guys that they go for about 25, 30 minutes, some people because it's competitive in there, they're evenly matched they went the whole 25 minutes. We got other guys that you might get an easy runner, just get guys that are smaller than you or whatever it is and then someone gets this two base that just go at it the whole session. Literally, they were there for 25 minutes just trying to get each other down so they'll never get to win the belt. Sometimes, it's a bit of luck as well, bit of luck. You got to get a good run. Sometimes, you're going, you'll get a couple of good runs and then you'll get someone hard. Sometimes, you look, you're like, "Oh look at this guy." I don't want to sound like an easy run and say people are easy but at the end of the day, you've got high level professionals that are three times the weight of this person. Okay it's going to be a bit easier for me. I'm not knocking this guy but he's half my fucking size. You get what I'm saying but it's good. It's real competitive. We usually do that towards the end of the week. It's hard. Again, even though I'm small, I verse people, wall work's my thing. I'm really strong there. I've got to verse guys twice the size as me and now I'm still very very competitive there and that's how it works. The schedule we got already, it's a nightmare man, it's hard work. I have nightmares about the fight camps and stuff like that. No, not really but it's hard work and then you got that session where some people can be like, "Oh it's not that hard," and then for some, it's killer unless you just let people in but it's not in me. Like I said, I ain't going to let that happen. **Sonny:** Fair enough. With that competitiveness going on then with the wall work and so many people if it's just everyone in there together, how you guys keep in track of who's taking down who? Do you ever think someone may be just like-- **Alexander:** I reckon some people might sneak in a couple extra. They might say. It's usually up to the person but while you're going, obviously you've got people watching so there's a lot of people that know anyway and then you got the coaches watching and then they're asking every few minutes, "What are we on?" Then they're like, "Oh yeah I'm on two," whatever. It's pretty easy for people to keep track but in saying that, there's been some arguments where people didn't agree with certain things. People are like, "Oh this is bullshit. You said that, blah blah blah." Sometimes, you get a draw and then you got to do the 1v1 with the two guys that done a draw. **Sonny:** The thunder dome just took it over the middle. **Alexander:** Everyone goes nuts. Pressure's on. ### Wrestling In Illawarra **Sonny:** That's gold. A big thing, I guess, as an Aussie coming up fighting on the local scene, there's a big idea that you would have had to have gone overseas to get your proper training. You've got to go to America, that's it, that was all it. Especially for wrestling, you were lucky enough to wrestle in Australia. You wrestled in Illawarra. Where exactly were you doing that? Was that Illawarra PCYC because there's not that many places around to do it. **Alexander:** No, not many at all so Lake Illawarra PCYC, that's where I did it. I started doing that. It was ahead of games night so they did that for-- It was just a youth club so they done a games night, anyone could go but then because they have a wrestling clinic there, that was a part of activities that you got to do. You wrestled towards the end of the night. I went there and done all right and Don Brown, his name, he's a wrestling coach, he comes, he's going, "Oh you should give it a crack. You're pretty good." I've always been strong and I've always been a goer, you could say, like I said. I did that and then I was actually pretty good at it. I wanted to play football with my mates. How many I done? I can't remember honestly. I don't know if it was one or two years and then a couple years. I know I'd won a couple of national titles so I'm guessing it was around two years. I'll train and then I was competing and I was doing really well but just starting out. I wanted to hang out with mates, play football with the mates and got over wearing tights, as I always say, got over wearing the tights and then I'll wear tights anyway so it doesn't matter. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear you. I do say that tights are a sport killer in Australia. Wrestling's never going to take off here with the tights. **Alexander:** \[laughs\] Well, that's here. Australia, it's not big here, you're right, it's not big. I understand what you said with that question where there was a lot of people. When I first started training and I started getting pretty good, a lot of people are like, "Oh man you need to go to America. It's the only way." They're not tired of you. You want to sit there and be like, "No, fuck you," but it ain't like that. It ain't like that, it's just they think-- They don't know any better. Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side and they can be wrong. It was very big over there and earlier on-- It's a lot more than just having crazy-- You need training partners, obviously, you need competitive training partners and obviously good coaching and that so you want all that but there's still a lot more as well. You can go to gyms like that and it can not work at all for you. If anything, it can go worse. You go, you train with a bunch of killers and you're trying to get better, say you're getting better. You're sparring with a bunch of killers and then you wonder why people get hesitant. How do you get better when you're sparring against some-- Everytime I try something, I get my head fucking knocked off. Every time I want to shoot, they just throw these hips and I never get them because they're fucking better than me. I'm just a beginner, these guys are better. How do you get better? Sometimes, it is very important to train with all levels even at the highest level, even there at my level, I want to train with all levels. Obviously, you need that competitive training, don't get me wrong. If you got to work game plans and things like that and you're constantly versing guys that know your game, all that are really really good and know your game anyway, then how do you start incorporating that in your sparring and things like that? The full process is going to be a little bit difficult because every time he shuts me down because he knows exactly what I'm doing. It goes a lot deeper than that and I can see why people say it but again, now, we got so many good gyms over here. It's strangers so now we got some of the best fighters in the world over here. Now people understand we don't need to. There was a time where maybe you could say we were a little bit more behind, but I don't believe that. I don't believe that now at all. ### Choosing Local Training over International **Sonny:** No, definitely not. Just to focus in on that one thing where you're saying that people just keep shutting your game down, or they could or whatever, do you think that's because if you were to go overseas and something like that, they're going to see you as the outsider and try and-- They're in competition with you. Whereas if you're in your home gym, so to speak, where people have your back, they're going to help you work and help you grow and develop. Is that part of it? **Alexander:** Yes. You are going to get good training partners but a lot of people-- That's what I meant. I'm just trying to show you the headspace people are in or how they think like, "Oh yeah. Iron sharpens iron," so you're saying. I get it, it's true, but you've got to have balance. That's mainly what I'm trying to say. Obviously, you can go to these gyms, they're going to still obviously pull back for you but again, a lot of these things, they're not going to-- Some people can be competitive. They're probably not going to give you a takedown or they're probably not going to let you land a punch. They'll take it easy, they won't bash you, but it's going to be hard for you to work things. Again, that's why I like training with guys at a lower level than me as well. When I say lower level, I might be better than somebody, but I don't mind training with them because I can work things. Today, I want to work that distance. These guys, I want to make them miss and touch them, I'm not going to hit them hard. I can really work, I can really play the inches game with them or this millimeters game and really-- Just fine little details that you can work on training with all different levels no matter what it is. Then, you're going to get some killer where you're like, "All right I need to use everything and I need to be careful with what I do and I need to really set this up. I need to constantly keep him worrying about what I'm doing." Little things like that. When you're training with other guys, it's like, "All right," there's so many more things you can work on to develop your game. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. **Alexander:** That makes sense. You get what I'm saying with that? **Sonny:** I hear what you're saying. It's like you need people that will give you a range of different looks so you can develop different areas and be willing to work in cooperating with you so you can both grow and develop and it's not just where survival of the fittest every night and you've only going to have to use your A game, you can't grow and try something new because they're just going to shut it down and not let you grow. Is that what you mean? **Alexander:** Yes, you're exactly right. If this is constantly happening, if you are constantly-- You're training with guys that-- It's hard to really explain. There's certain combos that I'm working on. Say I'm drilling combos. I want to work on that in sparring but again, I'm trying this on guys. I can't get in near him, they just smash my leg every time or whatever it is. I'll get taken down every time I do it because they're obviously a lot better than the person. This is constantly happening. You probably don't notice but it's constantly happening and then you start, "Oh, no. I don't want to throw that combo," or, "I won't do this, I won't do that." You're not thinking, "Oh, if I throw this I'm going to get punched ahead." It's just getting built into you. Every time I throw this, I get hit. I don't want to throw that no more. You fight someone in your own level, you're probably landing that. It's probably working. Not only that, these guys know your game. They know what you're trying to do. That's why and like you said, training with as many different shapes, and sizes, styles is key. I've always been a big believer of that, me and Joe. Joe has always been happy for me to train with other guys. That's what I mean. You need to adapt to what's in front of you. To do so, you need a-- That's why in the gym, mate, I am adapting every day in the gym too. I've done it from my early days in my career where I'm training with different guys and I don't know their game. I don't know these guys. I go in there and I need to adapt. I need to find out what's going to work. I'm so used to doing that that there's no surprises come fight time. I honestly believe that because I do adapt very well in the cage. There's times where I go in a fight and I'm thinking it's going to go be one way. It turns out going the complete opposite way. Just purely feeling it out, touching. I had obviously work game plans but there's a lot that I thought was going this direction with this game plan, not it ended up staying here or went this way. Again, I'm always preparing for whatever, anyway. Especially earlier days, there as times where I thought, "All right. However it's going to be, I'm going to be standing up. I'm going to finish on my feet," and next minute it just went to the ground. **Sonny:** Yes. **Alexander:** I just beat him up to the ground or complete opposite. That's talking about it on a smaller scale. I'm not going into too much detail. ### The Coaching of Joe Lopez **Sonny:** Yes. Just being able to be adaptable and change to the chaos of a fight let's say. That makes sense. You bring up Joe. We got to talk about Joe. You guys have a good relationship it seems. I remember when you guys were training together down in Melbourne. You guys were bunking up having to share the room at Absolute for IFC. \[laughs\] **Alexander:** Oh, yes there. I thought you were talking about another story. I had to share a room with him while I was fighting in the UFC too. \[laughter\] **Alexander:** You're right, man. I remember. **Sonny:** What was your impressions when you first started training there with him? What has he done different to build that culture that you're talking about of having people who are adaptable, allowing people to work like that? What's he done different than other places that you would go? **Alexander:** Look, again I couldn't tell you what's different. With Joe, again he's always been-- It's not like it's hard. You know yourself, there's a lot of gyms. I don't know if it's getting any better but I don't think it ever was easy for gyms to go and train at other gyms. There's not many people who are going to do that. Just to be able to do that. Even a coach that understands that, "Oh, I'm not doing this to be selfish," know you can't go there. Having trust in yourself and knowing like, "Oh, that's all right. This is to evolve us." We go there and again we can go there and-- He's happy to adapt as well. We'd go and he watches me spar. He's there. We're learning while we're doing this too. Don't get me wrong. We know a fair bit. We're always learning. You got to be able to adapt to whatever is happening. One thing that Joe's always had is hard work as well. Again, that was my style anyway. He's always a situational type of a trainer as well which I love. You can show someone-- Technique is obviously telling you you need to know a lot of techniques and drills. Being in positions and working things out yourself as well is another thing as well. There's so much in between if you get what I'm saying. There's movements and there's skills and techniques. There's so much more. Getting to a position to do that technique, a lot of times it's very hard to just teach that. We've always done the live rounds. We've always, whether it's alright, start in this position and go live from there. We've done that from [wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/forging-a-competition-mindset-abstract-thinking-while-wrestling-with-brian-ebersole/ "Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling With Brian Ebersole") and clinch whatever it is. That's something that I believe really, really helped me especially the wall work. We were always big on wall work. Joe was from day one. I don't think it was real big like in Australia people would do it but we've done a lot. We did a lot of it. It was always situational. Even though we knew skills, we'd just put ourselves in them positions and just work from there. The amount that we learned just from putting ourselves in that position so many times, you just start building techniques. You just know what works and what doesn't. You know what's a good position, what's a strong base. You know when you're in this position this works, you know when you're in that position that works. You know this don't work here. It's hard to know that unless you put yourself in that position and we always put ourselves in that position. I think that it's something that I remember really working. Even now, when I try and show techniques, there are so many things that's just built-in. I've never taught it but it's just my body knows. Why? Because we've been in that position a billion times. **Sonny:** I know exactly what you mean. That's actually something I've been talking about a lot with other people just how it's really not about the technique, it's about building that [intuition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/developing-intuition-with-the-school-of-grappling/ "Developing Intuition with the School of Grappling") and just those natural reactions out of your body that comes through practice and repetition. **Alexander:** A hundred percent. ### Wallwork Practice Sessions **Sonny:** You mentioned the wall work. I remember looking at your timetable once. You guys have at least one dedicated class a week just on wall work, is that right? **Alexander:** Yes, we got two. **Sonny:** Two a day? **Alexander:** Two sessions, yes. We got two sessions. We'd go live and we'd do technique. We're doing a lot there. All of our guys, they're always very, very, very competitive on the wall. Especially when the guys fight, they're always strong. Again, they always got the grit. They always got the heart. That's something that-- Again, you don't want to go and kill yourself. You want to be calculated in how you do all that. You just want to have a good balance but the hard work still will always later be done. We definitely do that. **Sonny:** Yes. That's definitely not something that a lot of other gyms do even to have one dedicated wall work class a week. To have two and then to have the UFC champion who's pretty damn good at wall work. There might be something to it, I don't know. **Alexander:** Again, on the same topic, I think a lot has changed and now you're getting so many MMA gyms. Especially in Australia, one thing that Joe's always had more of an MMA gym from the day 1. Again, there was a lot of gyms that still did that. You still see today where even UFC fighters if they're doing kickboxing, they go to a kickboxing class and do a kickboxing class. If they do wrestling, they go to wrestling school. There are still guys that would go through separate aspects of the sport and train. I get that but at the same time, you need to do MMA sessions. You need to be able to blend it all together. We dedicate a lot of sessions to MMA specific stuff. We're an MMA gym. Obviously, we do jujitsu. There's going to be jujitsu but then we're going to incorporate MMA jujitsu-type stuff. We're MMA-specific. Little things like this, little details that works perfect for this and it might be have to be changed a little for this. We change it as they did up like that as well. We dedicate a lot of sessions to mixing it all up. ### Sparring Day at Freestyle Fighting Gym **Sonny:** The other thing I know you guys do in terms of mixing it up and bringing those different looks, you guys are always saying any open sparring or whatever on a Saturday, everyone welcome, other gyms welcome. You put the word out that if other gyms want to come spar that's fine, which is again not many other places do that. **Alexander:** Again, we're not trying to take these people out. We want them to come with their coaches. We're not trying to take people's clients. It's nothing like that. It's just purely letting everyone know that you can come train here with us, get your rounds in. Again, look at the bigger picture. Yes, okay, you might have to fight someone you train with maybe but what do you know. Again, I didn't care. Again, I told you that I always trained with as many people as I can. I've trained with guys that I've fought. Jamie Mullarky I've trained with him before I fought him. Things like that. That's going to happen but again also it's looking at the big picture. I'm not looking at, "Oh, what if I fight this guy? I don't want to train with him." Look mate, do you want to get better or not? Don't worry about that. It's sparring. It's never going to be the same as a fight anyway. Obviously, you can get a lot from sparring but it's always going to be that little bit different once you get to the fight time anyway. Again, I'm not concerned to knock people's head off as well. I think it might have been a false-- Again, I've sparred with some guys and then they wanted to-- They might want to fight, there's some that will be happy to accept the fight after that. I'm like, "Are you sure?" Then obviously the fight didn't go the way I planned, or it's been the other way where someone's called me out and then I've trained with them and they didn't want that fight anymore. It's going to happen but again probably because I knew they called me out so I had a little bit more to prove so I'd end up just letting them know like, "Hey, you don't want this." We challenged and we trained and he ended up accepting the fight and then thought he could beat me and I was thinking, "Could it be because of that session?" I don't know because again, you want to be competitive but I'm not going to try to kill my training partner. It's just not about that. I don't get paid in the gym. ### Alexander's fight against Jamie Mullarkey **Sonny:** Yes, fair play. I mean there's probably is a testament to that mentality though that Jamie did end up making it to the UFC even after that fight was a pretty brutal knockout that you got on him but he obviously persevered probably because he had that mentality, same as you, to go train with everyone. **Alexander:** Yes. I didn't mean that in a bad way when I said that but again obviously you got to have that belief in you. There's times where you might not go good in a round but you still know you can beat these people so you got to have that belief. At the time I credit him really because at the end of the day we were both, especially in Australia at the time in Featherweight Division, we were both fighting. A lot of people were like, "Well, these guys got to fight." That doesn't usually happen. I was the type of guy I would fight anyone anyway and for him to have taken on, good on him. It just shows you his belief. He knows he's really good but obviously that was my night and he's in the UFC now. He's a good fighter. He showed me mate. That was a crack of a fight too, man. It was a huge fight. ### Alexander's source of motivation and belief **Sonny:** It was. It was wild. For you, where does that motivation then and belief come from especially to take on everyone because we do see people take easy fights just to try and pad their record to get to the UFC and that's one way of doing it I guess but I always look to you now as the example of, "Well, look at how he did it and what he's achieved. That's probably the better way to go about things." What gave you that mentality to just accept all the tough challenges on the Australian scene? **Alexander:** I don't know. For me, maybe it probably just worked out for me. Luckily my abilities and it's MMA as well. You can be a lot better than guys, you can still lose. You could still say things went your way so I was lucky to keep getting them wins up even though I was taking on killers that people thought I wouldn't be able to beat especially in heavier divisions. Obviously, there was that one loss so that's what got me the loss, purely fighting someone I probably shouldn't have. It was very early in my career fighting the pound-for-pound number one in Australia in a division I should have never been in. That shows you that-- **Sonny:** Corey Nelson is a beast. **Alexander:** Yes. It just shows you that you shouldn't be-- I can see why people want it like that but at the same time a lot of people get padding records and doing things like that. You still need a good competitor, you still want to test yourself but I've always been the type of person that even while I was in the UFC. Before UFC I was, "If I beat this guy--" I wanted the fastest way to the top and to do so, you've got to beat the best. That's how I looked at it. Look, if I fight these guys, I could have moved Corey Nelson. He's number one pound-for-pound in Australia. If I beat him, I'm the man. That's how I looked at it and that's the same as when I was in the UFC. All right, Chad Mendez. I was outside the rankings. Chad Mendez is going to win. I'm like, "Man, he's going to be ranked number five after this. That's going to shoot me straight through the ranks. No one calls out Chad Mendez but I know that's going to push me forward. I want that fight." The same as Aldo. Aldo is ranked number one. I'm going to have to fight him in Brazil on his home soil. He's absolutely killing people in these three-round fights but that's going to put me at number one so give me that fight. I know I can do it. I'm not going to find an easy way. Like I said, it was really not given. I chose to earn my way to that belt and I went and done it. There's a lot of people that might get lucky, things will work out for them, and they might get a bit of help along the way but I was just, "Whoever get's me there quicker, let's do it. Whoever I need to beat to get there, I'll do it." That's just how I was. ### Going for more than just getting to the UFC **Sonny:** Yes, definitely. I remember once after training up at Chatswood at BT1 that day, we went and got lunch and you were talking about the UFC and were bringing up something about just the payscale or something like that and I can't remember exactly what it was but you were pretty much like, "No, that's not going to cut it. That's what I need more. I'm going to get there and I'm going to get more. I'm going to do it." I was like, "Okay. This guy is committed. This guy, he's after it." **Alexander:** Well, as in do you mean as I'm trying to get that? **Sonny:** As in you weren't going to be content with just getting there. **Alexander:** Okay, yes. Sorry. That's what I thought that's where you're going. **Sonny:** You weren't going to be satisfied. We weren't just talking about, "I want to have a fight and then just be a UFC veteran." You were talking about, "No, no, no." **Alexander:** Yes. Exactly right. Before I went off in the ring I wanted to make sure that's what you were talking about because I knew it was. **Sonny:** Rant away, sir. Rant away. \[laughs\] **Alexander:** Yes. That's true, man. I've said it time and time again. Before I got that belt I was like, "I ain't just happy to be in the UFC. I'm going to be at the top." I was telling people that I ain't happy with just being a number in the UFC. I'm going to get to the top. I ain't just looking to get that contract and be like, "Yes, I made UFC." That ain't good enough for me. I'm going to the top. I was saying that and I was pretty vocal about that. Again, it's not cockiness. It was just I knew I could do it and I wasn't lying. We're here now. \[laughs\] ### Advice To Younger Fighters **Sonny:** Ain't that not the truth, mate? Ain't that not the truth? It's a good point maybe to ask what advice you would give any young fighters. I know you got Colby. Colby Thickness coming out of your gym and he's one to keep an eye on but any advice you would give young fighters on how to go about things? **Alexander:** Man. One thing that I love and again I was telling you it helps because I explained this earlier on when I was talking about hard work and being put in positions and just always making it who you are. To do so from the first days in the gym, you shy away from certain exercises, you shy away from hard work, you want to take the easiest training partner, that could be who you become. You will maybe look for the easy road. I don't mean that in a bad way but if you're the type of person that, "Oh, yes. Tomorrow's this crazy session. I'm going to go do it. We're meant to do it, I'm going to go do it. I ain't going to make an excuse and not turn up. All right. There's this guy who's an absolute killer. Obviously, he's someone that's going to break your arm. All right, don't go with him but it's this guy you know is a hard round, I want him. I'm going to go there. I am not going to shy away." You do things like that. Put yourself in. When you want to work out and the coach isn't looking, "Oh, I could slow down." These little things, man. Just be comfortable at being uncomfortable. Put yourself in uncomfortable positions so you can adapt to being able to-- Let's make it who we are. That's what I could say. Be comfortable in uncomfortable positions. That's my saying. **Sonny:** Yes, makes sense especially in MMA. There's no way around it. Whether you like it or not, come fight night, you're going to be put in some uncomfortable positions. **Alexander:** 100%. Even for your career, you're going to end up being there but if you can suck it up for that first bit of your career or when you get in there and you just make it, again it's just all you know. When you are on that assault bike, you don't have to have someone watching you. I look at these fucking numbers and I'm like, "I need to hit these numbers because I know," it's who I am. Again, I make it who I am. I'm not trying to impress these people, it's just I know if I'm giving 50% I know that and that's going to fucking tear me apart so I won't let it happen because again, it's who I am. Let it be who you are. Get used to it nice and early and you won't know any different. Someone tells you to do something, you're going to do your best you can and you won't shy away. ### Transition to City Kickboxing in New Zealand **Sonny:** That's beautiful. Good advice for the young tackers out there looking to get into things. I'm wondering from that belief that you would do it, how did you then transition into maybe going across into New Zealand and hooking up with City Kickboxing. How should I say? Now it's a common misconception that maybe you're a New Zealander and that you're here from City Kickboxing. Does that ever get on Joe's nerves at all or is there any been-- How did it come to go to City Kickboxing to the stage where now people think that that's where you're from? **Alexander:** Man. You got to remember obviously everyone out here knows that even in Australia, well, most of the people in Australia that are in the sport know that I trained there. You're going to get the mainstream media or whoever, they're going to say "City Kickboxing got two champions," and then a lot of people, that's what they're going to see and that's what they know. They don't look any deeper. People that know the game, probably know. Obviously, a lot of people, they think I'm in New Zealand and literally think I'm a kiwi. It's funny, but obviously again, I'm biased out of a freestyle fighter gym. A lot of people know that. I would say it gets on-- Look, I'm sure a lot of people come up to Joe, and be like, "Oh, where are they keeping you now?" That probably annoys him because people are coming up to him and going, "Oh, why are they giving him?" He's okay. Well, obviously he's all for it. He knows that we're part of it. We're all one team we go over there, it's just we're a part of the team. We just look at it. You can't pay attention to things or judge them as well. Fine, pay attention to little details like that or then same as they say, with haters and people that are going to say negative things. They're always going to be there, you cant pay attention to them. I'm sure he's fine with it, but I'm sure it's probably got to his nerves. Got on these nerves here and there though as well. **Sonny:** I can only imagine. I'll have to state it to Joe Lopez **Alexander:** I wouldn't blame him really. **Sonny:** Now, I have heard a story that apparently, speaking of getting on Joe's nerves, Joe and Brad Riddell have a bit of back and forth or something. Can you shed any light on that? **Alexander:** Like banter? **Sonny:** Yes. **Alexander:** You mean the past banter? **Sonny:** Yes. Is that what it is. I don't know. **Alexander:** To be honest, that's everyone over there. Everyone over there, we bring Frank Hickman it's just constant banter. I love the banter. Sometimes I'll be fighting, fight week, and I can't even have a normal conversation with these guys because they're just constantly-- I'm like, "Guys, what do you want to get to eat?" "Bla, bla, bla," and they just carry on. I'm like, "Fuck, I want to eat. Shut up for a second." I love it, but at the same time, that's just who they are. They're just, the boys will be boys and they're just constantly giving each other shit. **Sonny:** Having a laugh. **Alexander:** Obviously, when we're in New Zealand, a lot of times we're staying at Brad's. So we live with Brad. Obviously, it's like a love-hate relationship where you get two mates that just constantly give each other shit and it never ends, like that. It seems to be Joe and everyone else. He's like that. Like I said, you get two people that just always go at it. It's always Joe and someone else. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] That's classic. Just a bit of lads having a laugh. **Alexander:** Brad and Joe just bantering and carrying on with angry Brad we call it. ### Head Clash with Brad Riddell **Sonny:** Angry Brad. Well, speaking of that, the other story I heard about was something about one time you broke Brad's headgear or something at Tiger Muay Thai. **Alexander:** No, no, no, no, head clash. **Sonny:** What was it? A head clash. Oh, what happened then? **Alexander:** \[crosstalk\] That was just because we usually wear headgear. That's probably where you got that from. Wear the fucking headgear. Eugene and Joe would have been up there saying, "Where the fuck is the headgear?" I think what I'd try to do. A lot of times a level change. I think I went for a level change and went to go like a double leg. Or I can't remember what it was or something like that. I went level changed and he sort of went for the sprawl but then I bailed out on it and then we head clashed. Just saying, he was giving me shit. Blaming me for it and I was blaming him for it. It was one of them things he blamed me but I blame him. **Sonny:** Classic. **Alexander:** Oh, no, no, no. Actually, I remember it was. I went for a high kick single leg, you get the head on the chest-high on the single leg, step that right leg over, so I throw a punch and then step over the right leg, I went to the single, so your leg will change a little bit like that. He went down to spar and just head-butted. Who do you blame for that? I just went for a single leg. **Sonny:** Part of the game. What are you going to do? **Alexander:** Part of the game. That's what I told him then. **Sonny:** Wear your headgear I guess. **Alexander:** That's what you do. **Sonny:** That's the moral of the story. **Alexander:** Mate trust me. Fuck it. He deserves it from the shit that he's fucking done to me. He split me with a spinning back elbow while we were fucking wrestling. **Sonny:** How did that happen? **Alexander:** We were wrestling. Okay. It wasn't legit spinning back elbow. That's harder to explain. I went for a single leg and accidentally head-butted him. He somehow fucking spin and back elbowed me in the head. You can see why I blame him all the time. Well, I think I had a sore shoulder. I ended up like we were just playing around. I had his hip and he went to turn and because I couldn't hold him with my other arm, h e turned quicker than he expected. As he's turned, he just lifts his elbow up a little bit, he's trying to keep his elbow nice and tight so I wouldn't get bound to him and then bang. Mate, you know about the broken rib too? **Sonny:** No, what happened there? **Alexander:** No, not a broken rib. I tore my intercostal muscles. **Sonny:** Is that the rib cartilage where the ribs \[crosstalk\]? **Alexander:** Yes, rib. Yes. **Sonny:** Yes, I've done that. It's not much fun. What happened then? **Alexander:** Oh, that was two days before my fight. Two days before my Darren Elkins fight. **Sonny:** Oh, yes, yes. That's right. **Alexander:** That was Brad Riddell. **Sonny:** Oh, really. Okay. Now that you mentioned that, yes, I do. **Alexander:** Two days before my Darren Elkins fight. You can see what position I've been in from injuries. Again, obviously, we're both brutes so we tend to injure each other all the time. **Sonny:** That's going to happen in this sport. It's a rough sport, right? **Alexander:** Yes. ### Being adaptable in the game **Sonny:** I think I'd actually, linking it back into what you're talking about with being adaptable and having that adaptability, no matter what. Being able to be adaptable to a rib injury two days before a fight, adapting to head clashes, adapting to those things in sparring. That's all part of that adaptability, right? **Alexander:** Exactly right. 100%. Exactly, right. I can dwell on things going wrong and obviously, there's going to be some pretty negative things happening in camps. If you constantly just focus on them and let them get to you, man, it's going to be hard. It's going to be real tough. If you constantly find ways around it, I don't want to be cliche, stay positive and you know. Sometimes you just really need to-- Whatever it is, that was pretty hard to stay positive. I had tore an intercostal muscle. I couldn't even lay in bed. I lay in bed, I couldn't move. Because I was still water loading, because I still had to fucking make weight, I couldn't even get up. It could take me five minutes just to get up and I'm in pain and then I'm trying to cry because I thought, I don't know if I could fight. Then I can't cry because it's hurting me too much. So I'm just like, "What do I do?" It's just absolute chaos. Man, it was nuts, but we still got it done. Again, we adapted, even just training. I couldn't even train. I couldn't even fold the right hand. I put hit pads in front of my right hand. I feel my right-hand, it took the ind right out of me, I couldn't feel my right hand. It was just, once the adrenaline rush comes, hopefully, you won't be in as much pain and see how you go. Those times it was adapt that I made in there. I think I adapted probably too much. Because I reckon the adrenaline rush worked a charm. I still had the rib injury on my mind a lot. There was times where I dropped him and I was worried about. I love my ground and pound. I'll just fucking jam on him and just cave in, that's my thing, especially back then. I was so worried about jamming his legs or his knees into my rib. I curled up and went to go in there and he was getting up. Then I just went for guillotine. It's hard to explain. I wouldn't usually go for guillotine when I've just dropped someone and landed on their back. I slowly went in because I was worried about jamming into the hips. Then because he got up, he was there and again, I didn't want to flatten him back out because I was worried about my ribs. I just tried to go for a guillotine. I don't think I would have had to. I think if I just threw bombs and do what I normally do, I would've finished the fight and I don't think it would have felt it. Because again, the adrenaline rush, fucking worked the charm, I'll tell you that. **Sonny:** Yes. Could certainly change things quickly. You adapted you overcame and that's what it's all about at the end of the day. **Alexander:** I was in pain and conquered. ### A Greased Fight Story from PXC **Sonny:** That's it mate. It certainly did. Maybe you could tell this story. I think I heard it, Joe mentioned. Actually, I think it's great example of adapting is when you were fighting in PXE, and I think one of the fighters there maybe had a bit of lotion on, was a bit greased up. **Alexander:** Oiled himself up. **Sonny:** Can you take us through that story that fight? What happened? **Alexander:** Joe, he was in my only corner so he'd come with me, just me and him. So we'd done the whole process together, more over there. Again, we're in a different country. First time fighting in Guam, PXC, and we go there and again, this guy was a Guam boy, Carl Reyes, he's actually a good fighter but I think back then-- I actually talked to him not long ago. He's a lot different now. You can see that he grew up a little bit. He was a bit young and wanted to be gangster type when I fought him, if you get what I'm trying to say. I believe that he's changed a fair bit but that's-- I went and I fought him and while we were fighting I grabbed him and he was oiled up. I could tell he was oiled up. I was fighting him. I remember having his back, having him in the rear, naked, he was swiveling. He was literally sliding down like-- He would swivel, I'd get back on top and he would swivel again. While I had my legs around him locked in he was just able to still swivel in me like that. I'm like "What the hell?" I'm grabbing him, just sliding everywhere. I mean proper oil. It was oil. I'm wedging and he's all oiled up. I'm trying to wedge him, going back to the corner, I'm fuming. You could imagine how angry I am. Joe's trying to calm me down and at the same time thinking, "Man these guys, we're in a different country, they're going to rob us. They're doing this on purpose, but Alex is going nuts, I need to control him. I've got to calm him down." Because I'm going, "What the fuck?" I'm flipping out and the ref at this time was just like, "Oh no, I don't know what you're talking about." Then the second round, same thing happens, and then he's starting to guess. I end up still, again, adapting and just doing what I had to do and I was beating him up anyway and I guessed. The ref grabs him and goes, "Oh, I can feel oil. I'm going to go get him checked." I'm like, "Now that he's tired." I thought it was part of their plan. "Oh, now he's tired you want to check him, give him time to relax and get his breath back." I'm going, "This is all--" I'm fuming again. Joe's trying to calm me down. **Sonny:** The game is rigged. **Alexander:** At the same time I'm thinking-- Yes, and then we end up fighting. He wiped him down a bit. After the fight he held him and actually "Okay, I've got the permission to come in. I want you to check in." He knew something was up, he ended up feeling it eventually. They end up finding it in his drink bottle. I got told that the ref ended up telling us, he goes, "You were right. We found it in his drink bottle." They went in, they do the check up. Do the check up, then walks in and they spray through the cage sometimes. Just went \[noise\] and then he's just got it in hand and acting like they're patting themselves up, and just oiled his whole body up. Joe even remembers him doing that but didn't realize, because some fighters do that. That's how he spread it all over himself and man, I'm telling you it sticked. I remember my shorts. I remember wearing my shorts and they were just full of oil. I'm like, "Joe, look at this." I put water on it, squeezed it out and you just see oil and water all through the ground. It was nuts. Joe had to calm me down a fair bit then. We adapted and got the in right. **Sonny:** Adapted. Got it done. Survive and thrive. I love the idea of Joe having to calm you down in the middle of a cage fight. So you can-- **Alexander:** It's usually me trying to calm him down all the time, but he had to calm me down this time. **Sonny:** Don't get too angry mate, we got a cage fight to worry about here. **Alexander:** He's like, "You've got to fight, just don't worry about it. Relax. We'll worry about it later." Oh mate, it was crazy. He was just slipping out of weird positions and-- But actually, I got put in a pretty bad-- Well, I would say a bad position. He had me in-- I don't think it was a triangle but he almost had a triangle maybe and then I end up slipping out. That could've worked against him maybe. ### Alexander's advice to his younger self **Sonny:** That's classic. Mate, it's been a great chat. I'll finish off with one last question just to wrap it up. Basically, is there anything that you could think of, advice you would give your younger self when you were just starting out training? You can look back and say-- Is there anything that you can think of that you'd tell yourself? **Alexander:** Oh man, I'm all about how people say you learn so much from your experience and all that. The way we've done things, I'm happy with how I did them. I'd like to say I wouldn't change anything or there is things that I believe in that I truly believe helped me through my career. Maybe just, like I said, even though I always was a hard worker, let him really know that. Let him understand these things that I know now. Luckily enough I went through that process but I didn't know it. I just went through that process and become who I am and I just look back at it and realize that that's why I am who I am. Maybe just let myself know. Let him know these things. Just so you understand it so you can use it the best way you can. Maybe I could've used it a little better and maybe I could be even more fitter and stronger right now. You never know. Maybe I could've worked even harder. Just things like that. I'm proud of who I am and I wanted to become the champion. I wanted to be me through the whole process so that's something. If I could tell my young self-- You know what I would say? **Sonny:** What's that? Alexander: Don't commit to Game of Thrones because you're going to get let down in the last season. Sonny: Season seven mate, season seven. I didn't keep watching it after the end of season six, just when the wall came down in 10 minutes. I'd been building that wall up for years. That was going to be the big battle and then the dragon, just it's done in a minute. It killed it. **Alexander:** Oh mate, yes they did that exactly. I could do a whole podcast on just that fucking-- Anyway. **Sonny:** Happy days. But I do like it, that's the adaptation, that champ mentality of what could you do different. Maybe work a bit harder. It's beautiful. Alex, thanks so much for your time. If people want to get in touch it's Instagram, Facebook, you've got a new program coming out. I've seen you advertise. What's going on with that? **Alexander:** Yes, it's a 10 week strengthen ignition program. My specific strengthen ignition program that I do with my trainer, people can actually do that with me. We've got the footage of me training so pretty much, people can be my training partner for 10 weeks. They're going to do my exact workout. It's not just a program we're pretending we're doing, you actually see me do it and you do it with me. It's cool. It's my specific strength program that everyone has access to. There's obviously a lot more details but you can go to that trainwithvolko.com, it's cool. It's pretty good. We've had a lot of interest so we're very very happy about how things are going. **Sonny:** Beautiful. So trainwithvolko.com. Learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable, survive, adapt, and overcome. **Alexander:** Adapt. Be comfortable in uncomfortable positions baby. That's what you need to know through life. **Sonny:** That's it. I love it. Alex, thanks so much for your time mate. I'd love to do it again sometime in the future but I know it's busy being a champ mate. It's hard work so I appreciate you taking time out of your day very much. **Alexander:** No worries man. Next time we'll get more into more of the stories. Maybe some McDonald’s stories and cheeseburgers. **Sonny:** Cheeseburgers, aye? Forgot about that one. Next time mate. You have a good night mate. Take care. **Alexander:** You too champ. See you later. ## Show Notes ### Quotes - You know, martial arts, there's so much skill involved, but at the end of the day, hard work, being strong, and just having that grit goes a long way. - Everything is a battle. Even if you're not winning, it's a grind. - Sometimes it's very important to train with all levels. Even at the highest level, even at my level, I want to train at all levels. - You need to adapt to what's in front of you, and to do that; you need a gym mate. - You can be a lot better, but you could still lose. It probably just worked out for me. So I was lucky to keep getting the wins up. - I wanted the fastest route to the top. And to do so, you're going to beat the best. - Be comfortable at being uncomfortable. Put yourself in uncomfortable positions so you can adapt. ### Links - **[Alexander Volkanovski Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/alexvolkanovski/ "https://www.instagram.com/alexvolkanovski/")** - **[Alexander Volkanovski YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexVolkanovskiOfficial "https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexVolkanovskiOfficial")** - [**Freestyle MMA** **Gym Website**](https://www.freestylemma.com.au/ "https://www.freestylemma.com.au/") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Alexander Volkanovski Interview Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/volko_tsbb_promo-1.jpg "volko_tsbb_promo-1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Craig Jones On Down Under to Danaher, Puerto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment](https://www.sonnybrown.net/craig-jones-bjj-interview-down-under-danaher/) **Published:** January 31, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/craig_jones_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Craig Jones** about life after his ADCC 2017 breakout, moving from Australia to Puerto Rico via New York, training with the Danaher Death Squad, and turning professional grappling into a viable career. We cover his seminar “road-warrior” years, safe-but-aggressive training methods, branding and social-media strategy, and why he believes risk-taking starts with rock-solid defence. ## Listen to CRAIG JONES: ### Listen To The Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/down-under-to-danaher-peurto-rico-prize-grappling-providing/id1476963733?i=1000507195075) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/28fJVtZFTzgtEOPuDLrx9j?si=7304b81d3c1e47a8) ## Key Topics ### **ADCC Breakout and New Opportunities** Craig explains how beating Leandro Lo at ADCC 2017 transformed him from an under-funded purple-belt into a globally sought-after athlete. Seminar offers, sponsorships and invitations to elite rooms arrived overnight, freeing him from teaching regular classes and putting him “on the road” for almost twelve months. ### **Joining the Danaher Death Squad** Unable to out-leg-lock Gordon Ryan twice in 2017, Craig followed the maxim *“if you can’t beat them, join them”*. A locker-room coincidence at Kasai led to open invitations, and the Kiwi connection helped John Danaher make him part of the room. He describes DDS entry standards, round structures and John’s story-filled coaching style. ### **Training Culture - Late-Stage Defence & Timeless Rounds** DDS rounds have no visible clock; John calls time without warning, forcing athletes to “think Jiu-Jitsu” every second. Because submissions aren’t finished with breaking pressure, teammates can train arm-bar and leg-lock escapes daily, building the confidence to attack relentlessly in matches. ### **Seminar Program Philosophy** After teaching 76-plus seminars in a year, Craig now runs tours where he repeats a tight technique sequence, refines it through questions, then spends half the session on Q&A and stories. Less material, deeper detail and audience interaction keep fans engaged and protect his energy on the road. ### **Marketing, Memes and Making a Living** From budgie-smugglers to “F\*\*\* Craig Jones” rashies, humour is Craig’s brand-differentiator. He urges up-and-comers to “compete in everything” and create highlight footage rather than guard fragile reputations. He cites Robert Degle as a model of constant competition plus content-driven income. ### **Submission Underground, Rule-Sets and Risk** Preparing for Chael Sonnen’s five-minute Submission Underground bouts means adding an extra short-round with maximum aggression. Craig argues ten-minute submission-only would showcase skill better and criticises IBJJF’s “butt-touch” takedown rule for truncating scrambles. ### Craig Jones **Interview Highlights:** \[00:02:52\] Why did Craig move to Puerto Rico? \[00:08:38\] **What was the big victory of Craig Jones?** \[00:16:23\] How had **Craig decided to join the Danaher team**? \[00:21:17\] **How does Danaher's instruction system help in developing individual moves?** \[00:24:40\] How is Danaher's systematic approach is different from other places? - **What are the key areas of growth?** \[00:31:21\] What is the **benefit of professional food time?** \[00:41:19\] Why most people are unable to make money in wrestling? \[00:44:52\] **Self-belief and Self-confidence are necessary for sports and for making money.** \[00:51:43\] You learn things from watching! \[00:58:47\] Craig's ability to market himself….. - **What are the things involved in Craig's success?** \[01:04:28\] **How do you feel with pressure point techniques?** \[01:07:30\] What is the link between sports and sports entertainment? \[01:11:41\] **What is Craig's goal?** - What type of gym does Craig want? \[01:14:40\] **Craig's piece of advice for Youngsters…..** ### **Craig Jones Quotes:** **“Minimising individual expressions, allows the team to be much more efficient."** **"When there is no rest, you have to pace yourself; if you escape that expose, you are not going to survive in the training session."** **"Don't compete to make money, compete to finish."** **“Your coach is good but you also have to be good enough to recognise the areas where he is not good.”** **Special Reminder:** Thanks for checking out the show. **Be sure to subscribe and leave a review.** If you have an idea or topic for the show or maybe you want to check out our new episodes**,** visit us at [**https://sonnybrownbreakdown.com/**](https://sonnybrownbreakdown.com/)**.** **Feel free to Reach out to Craig:** - [**Instagram**](https://www.instagram.com/craigjonesbjj/?hl=en) - [**BJJ Heroes**](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/jones) - [**Linktree**](https://linktr.ee/Craigjonesbjj) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown**, then make[ **sure to subscribe**](https://sonnybrownbreakdown.com/) to our podcast on your favourite platform. **Available on** [**YouTube**](https://www.youtube.com/c/sonnybrown)**,** [**Spotify**](https://open.spotify.com/show/78vLiIChHGD0YwoTS8nTm6?si=n0q8kuOjRaibL3Qoh_RNLg)**,** [**Apple**](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-sonny-brown-breakdown/id1476963733?ls=1) **and** [**Google Podcasts**](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zb25ueWJyb3duLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz) **and other major podcasting platforms.** ![Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/craigpromo2-1024x1024.jpg "craigpromo2 › Sonny Brown")## Key Takeaways - Craig’s professional grappling career accelerated after ADCC, but sustained progress required adapting to new teams, cities and training environments. - High-level training can be aggressive without becoming reckless when defence, control and partner safety are treated as foundations. - Building a career in grappling involves more than competition results. Seminars, personality, branding and audience connection also matter. - Confidence to take risks is strongest when it is supported by reliable defensive skill. ## Resources - [Craig Jones on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/craigjonesbjj/) - [Craig Jones profile on BJJ Heroes](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/jones) - [Craig Jones links](https://linktr.ee/Craigjonesbjj) ## Craig Jones - Podcast Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Craig, how are you doing today, mate? **Craig Jones:** Yes. Good, good. Up bright and early so we could coordinate this one, but I'm usually up early anyway, so it's not too bad. **Sonny:** Appreciate it. It's late here, but I'm usually up late so it works out well. It's a good time, because it's nice and quiet here for recording. I guess up early over there as now you're in Puerto Rico, which is probably a big change, coming from Australia, then you moved to New York or New Jersey, I think, and then now to Puerto Rico. What's happened? What's going on? It seems like a wild move for you guys there. **Craig:** Yes, very strange move. Honestly, when I first heard about it-- Gordon went on vacation to see Mo in Puerto Rico. I think they were talking about some business stuff. Previous to that, Me, Ethan, and Taza, Mo brought us out here, but probably 18 months ago. Gordon went out, came back, and then immediately started trying to convince John to pack up the whole team and move. I don't think John would have been interested in doing it whatsoever, except for the fact that COVID was really killing Panza's gym in New York, or the restrictions were killing the competition classes. If you're running a school and only local people can enter, and train, and stuff, and there's limited numbers, then the competition guys, they're not there paying. They're not really supporting the business apart from advertising and stuff. I wouldn't say there was tensions, but it was definitely difficult to train as we usually would. We'd have time-restricted classes. Again, we were only allowed in 15 minutes before. We had to be out of there 15 minutes after. While the gym was actually closed during quarantine, it was fine because we could just sneak in through the back door and there won't even really be guys that teach in private. But once they opened up the gym in limited numbers, then it became very, very difficult. That encouraged John to move back here. Then obviously, the guys make a lot of money off DVDs. To move to Puerto Rico, you actually only pay 4% taxes of everything you own. I believe even capital gains and stuff, it's only 4%. I think the combination of those two things, and we have Mo out here. Mo has been living out here for a few years, so we had a safety net. It wasn't a complete risk. Those were really the main reasons, and everyone really wanted to get out. New York's a great place to visit, but I don't think it's a good place to live at all, obviously. Unless you're a millionaire living in Tribeca or something, or in a real comfortable neighborhood, it's pretty horrible to live there. I've moved to Puerto Rico and I've got a three-bedroom right on the ocean, and it's the same price per month as my studio apartment in Hoboken, which is four flights of stairs, a shit apartment. I'm pretty sure there were rats in there and stuff. A great change. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That makes sense then. It's a bit of like a perfect storm of the crazy global conditions. Yes, the team in New York moves up and moves to Puerto Rico. Now, are you able to get in on that good tax break? Are those incentives there for an Australian overseas? **Craig:** I'm still, unfortunately, awaiting my visa. I think, technically, I'm here illegally right now. It should process pretty soon, but I have to do a biometrics appointment. Obviously, you have to go in physically for that and with the US, COVID's crazy so all the offices are shut down. I think I have to wait to get my social security number, and then I'm entitled to that. Compared to the Australian tax rate, 4% is going to be pretty damn nice. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] The incentives are there for a reason, I guess. They want people there. **Craig:** Yes, that's for sure. **Sonny:** That's one move then that you've made recently, but obviously, going from Australia to New York to begin with would have been a big move. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking way back, one of your original Instagram handles maybe was jiujitsutravels or something like that, way back in the day? Was that always your goal to use jiu-jitsu as a means to travel? **Craig:** Yes, pretty much. My goals always just grew with what I felt I could accomplish at the time. I know that when I started jiu-jitsu it was like, "If I get good enough, I can open a school and not have to work a full-time job." Then, in terms of competition goes, it was always like, "Could I be the best guy in the state, best guy in the country?" Then just kept raising those goals. It was pretty much the same thing. Actually, jiu-jitsu traveling was pretty much all I was doing. I would go into a camp somewhere. I've trained basically everywhere, like Marcelo's, Atos, Drysdale's. I've visited everywhere basically doing mini-camps and then competing, but I had to change the Instagram name. It was after ADCC 2017 where I also had that breakout performance. I remember André Galvão came out to me and he goes, "Man, you got to change your Instagram name. No one can find you." \[laughs\] That was what made me switch it over. **Sonny:** You got to consider the branding. It makes sense. The branding you've going for now too, I guess, is something that's probably another topic with the budgie smugglers and the #FuckCraigJones \[laughs\] who may all say that's the end, maybe. **Craig:** \[laughs\] Yes, they are kids. **Sonny:** Yes, that's a rabbit hole. \[laughs\] 2017 was definitely a breakout performance in terms of competition. I remember watching it, that match against Leandro Lo. We were with the team Australia, we're new, but that was still a big victory that, obviously, would have opened up some doors. Then you won in the second round of that as well. Breakout performance, no doubt. Did that then opened more doors for you in America where you were accepted into places like Danaher's, or how did that next step evolution then go from there? **Craig:** That really just opened the door that, man, I didn't have to [teach regular classes to live off jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/). It switched. I remember basically straight after that event, in my email, it was probably every grappler's dream at the time. Sponsorship offers from every brand, it was flooded with people asking for seminar opportunities. Based on that alone, I just took the risk up then and pretty much stopped teaching at Absolute St. Kilda. I would teach when I was back in town, but over time I came, I was back in town less and less, just because all the opportunities were in the States. I would just live off the road. I remember I made horrible decisions after ADCC 2017. Because I had made no money forever, I took every single seminar opportunity, and I still competed at the same time. I remember, I think I did 76 speaks or 77 seminars over the next 12 months. I just kept using the seminars to prepare for competition. We'd do the seminar and then I'd roll with everyone at the end. Terrible, terrible idea that was. That was obviously risk of injury, rolling in seminars. You can get injured. **Sonny:** Yes, that's definitely not as expected nowadays that the person will roll with everyone. You hear the stories more of that happening with the old school. Rickson would line everyone up and then run through everyone. **Craig:** There's a safe way to do it. I always tell people this. I'm always like, "What's the thing everyone's worried about at seminars?" If they do roll with everyone, the coach is always worried about getting submitted. I have this strategy that when I run, then go on, let him roll with everyone. If someone in the room submits me, I'll let him submit me a couple more times. I'm always like, if they can go and say they submitted me, people are going to believe it one time, but maybe not two or three times. \[laughs\] They'll think I gave it to him. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** That's some high-level tips there. It's like, "Fool me once, but twice, three times, ahh--" The fix was in. **Craig:** That's how you protect the ego when you're tired of rolling. **Sonny:** High-level ego protection. You would just wait. On those competing, you're just going there, just rolling with whoever at the seminars, keep yourself fit, and prepare for competitions. Were you doing the seminars in just weekends only? That's more than one seminar a week then that you did that? **Craig:** Yes. I would do them whenever. Obviously, sometimes it's hard to get seminars during the week, but I think some parts of America, they find it so hard to get people to come there to do seminars anyway, that they will take weekday seminars. I remember even in the UK, the UK was really good. I feel like those guys in Europe are real desperate to get people out to seminars. I remember when I competed against Matheus Diniz in GrappleFest, I think I did 18 seminars in 19 days. The day off I had was the competition. Basically, two and a half weeks straight just seminar, seminar, seminar. That's not a good idea either, because I also feel like the quality of the seminar deteriorates as you're just getting exhausted. Obviously, you would know it sounds like a dream to teach seminars, but it is exhausting. You need to keep your energy up in between, I think. **Sonny:** Yes. That's probably a good idea then, though, too, the lessons that you learned from doing that many seminars in the time. One of the coaches back here, Justin, he was giving me advice of it's good to do things like that and you actually batch your mistakes. You can learn a lot from them at the same time. You've done that year of just hardcore seminars teaching. What would you think of the details then to deliver a good seminar and the things to avoid then? What are you on the lookout for? Also, will you teach the same thing every time or will you mix it up? **Craig:** I'll try to. I remember Braulio told me about this. It really does work well. You might do a limited run of seminars. You don't necessarily need to advertise it, but just teach the same thing every seminar. It doesn't have to be a whole year. I feel like I tried to do a seminar in like a tour, almost. I did have a proper tour recently, but I try to feel like I'll teach this sequence of techniques for the tour and, really, by the end of that tour, I've heard all the questions people need to ask about the move when you teach it. By the end of it, it's just a well-polished technique. Now basically, every time I teach it, I get less questions because I've taken into account the questions of previous seminars. For me, it's really less is more. What's funny is I almost consider it like a comedian that either has to win over the audience or the audience is there for them. Do you know what I mean? Like if you're a Joe Rogan and you go, he's already won over his audience. These days as my jiu-jitsu notoriety increase, people come to the seminar just to see me. I felt like, say, around '86 to 2017 when I was just taking off, they were there to see the technique. Now, almost have a higher level of scrutiny, and they would care more about the quality of the technique, which is super strange because these days, I feel like people just want to come say hello, hang out, get a photo. I try to adapt the seminar to that, and I feel like less technique, more focused technique, and then lots of time for Q&A at the end. Lots of time for stories and stuff. It's definitely changed over time, what I think people expect out of me. **Sonny:** It's a good point, because I've even felt that myself sometimes when looking at seminars that I want to go to. An example might be Kurt Osiander who was planning when he was coming out here, and of course Legend's been around forever, but really I want to go there. I don't really care what he's going to show, what he's going to teach, I want to hear his funny stories. I want to go get a photo with him, still in the middle fingers. I catch myself thinking that in my head before I book like, “Actually, why am I going to do these seminars?” It's got to be interesting on the other side, when you're putting it on to be able to navigate that change in people's expectations, where maybe they want to go there and they want to see the #FuckCraigJones rashy on. \[laughs\] **Craig:** That will be the merchandise and stuff. That's how I've planned to stay relevant when I get old, at least the entertainment value. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That's it. You spend all that time then doing those seminars. Tell me about how you ended up falling in with the Danaher crew. I guess you're definitely part of their team now. Started off as rivals, but they had seemed to be pretty accepting of allowing their rivals to come train. How did that happen that you decided that that's the place to be? **Craig:** It's if you can't beat them, join them. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Craig:** It was basically after me and Gordon's second match. We had our match at ADCC 2017, and then we had another match at EBI 2017, the Absolute, so obviously, into this armbar, I still count that as a victory, because he should've tapped, but a week after that we trained, which was funny because we had our first match, we had our second match, and then exactly a week after the second match, we both had Kasai and I had the Murilo Santana rematch, and he had the Yuri Simões match. Then at this side, there are four or five different locker rooms at this particular venue they had, and it just so happened they put me and me by myself in the locker room with Danaher and all his guys. There was Danaher guys in the undercut, the whole Renzo crew, basically. I remember just walking into the locker room after they took me there, and I walk in to the whole team that I competed against the previous weekend. I still remember Danaher being like, “Oh, you're in this locker room with us?” \[chuckles\] I would say it was awkward for a second, but then it was really fun. I think at the time, actually, Marc Grayson, a local Sydney guy had flown out to be in my corner for the event. That was definitely useful and stuff in terms of warming up, but I also got to see how the DDS guys warm up, and hear John telling stories and stuff like that in the back. I remember at the time, Gordon refused to admit his arm was injured. He was like, “No, it's fine.” He's moving around. It had a huge amount of swelling under here, the following week, It took until I actually joined the team for him to admit how bad it was, and he couldn't train for three weeks or something afterwards. That's what started the relationship, and I remember they said, “If you're still in New York, you should come in to train.” From there on, I really just started showing up with more regularity, which is strange because from being part of the team now, it's very strict about who can and who can't come, in terms of who could join the team or not. There's been a lot of high-level grapplers out of us to join the team and they've turned them down just based on weight divisions and stuff like that. I think I had an in into the team just because Danaher is from New Zealand and he loves people from that part of the world. He really appreciates-- Anytime an Australian visits Renzo's, typically, if John hears the accent, very, very welcoming. I think that might've been the in for me to get in there, because looking back, we really had no formal conversation about joining the team. I just kept showing up whenever I had spare time in America. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] The old George Costanza method of just show up until everyone assumes that you're on board, right? **Craig:** Exactly, \[laughs\] exactly. I'm trying to remember how often I showed up. For two or three mini-camps, and then I showed up for, I think, three months for the Palhares match. Then I kept showing up for longer and longer. I think it went from a week to three months to six months, and then officially moved to New York in March. I actually moved to New York March 1st, and then the COVID lockdowns hit basically a week later. It's a strange time to move to New York. I really chose to join the team, because I figured I would go to wherever I get beaten up the worst. Going in there, basically, my skill set was a knockoff of what they were doing. To go see it at the source, I still remember getting beaten out by Jason Rau, Nick Ronan. I thought I'd go in there and just get beaten up by Gary and Gordon, but being beaten up by the low-level guys really showed me the holes I had in my game, and that's why I stuck it out. **Sonny:** I've heard lots of great things about Jason Rau, that he's flown under the radar a bit and maybe getting out there a bit more. You bring up a good point of then how your game, like you said yourself that you felt your game was a bit of an imitation of theirs as you walk into there. Did you go in there with the intent of then, "I'm just going to soak up everything that Danaher can give me. I'm just going to start adopting their system as much as possible and just fall under his instruction style"? How much room is there left for you to develop your own individual styles within there, or your individual moves, or individual expression of that? **Craig:** That's a real good question. From what I understand about the team, for the most part, guys will have minor variations in style but everyone really does the same underlying systems. Everyone's very, very similar, almost robot-like. The best time to see is if you see John run the guys through a warm-up before a competition. John's telling them exactly what moves to hit. It's almost very, very robotic. Sometimes, the guys will add on to the system with their own variations, which is good because of Gary and Gordon. It's probably like the Yin and Yang, the complete opposite style. Gordon's like minimum risk, maximum efficiency, Gary's like maximum risk, you know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes. **Craig:** Impossible to pin, impossible to hang on to. Obviously, their style has diverged but, really, the underlying systems and stuff are all the same. For me, it's just minor tweaks, but for the most part, everyone's doing the same thing. That's why I think the team is so good. It's because, say we look at a team like Atos, say we look at Kaynan Duarte and Lucas Barbosa, I couldn't think of two things those guys do the same. When they compete, although they're part of a team to prepare, it's individuals facing other individuals. Whereas what I can feel with Danaher's group is everyone has the same system. Whenever one of us goes out and loses, provided we did the system and the system failed, then the whole team can adapt. For the most part, though, it's like one of us will fail, I will mess up some part of it and get beaten in that sense, but I see it as a whole team actually working together to face other individuals. Because we have the same style, we can see where it fails and where it needs to be improved. **Sonny:** I get exactly what you mean, where even that by minimizing the individual expression, it allows you to make any adaptations across the whole team much more efficient. Nowadays, it looks like a joke where everything is a system. Everyone's putting out a system, it doesn't matter what it is, it's got to be a system. Look, I'll be guilty of that at some point, and I think it's just the way it is. For you coming in there just like how you were training before in Australia, moving over there, all the other places you've seen, how different or how obvious is that systematic approach that Danaher's got? **Craig:** It's so different, the way we train and everything because say, for example, every training session, we'll always do a minimum of an hour of technique. If you watched a Danaher DVD or you go to a seminar, he might teach one move over three hours. In the gym, it's going to be like he'd teach a sequence very quick, we'll practice it, and then he will add in other parts of that technique. In that sense, it's very, very similar to the way most people teach classes, but it's the competition guys all doing it. What I see in other gyms is the coaches will teach these elaborate techniques and teaching to the up-and-coming guys, but it feels like as guys get more and more advanced, they amount of drilling they do decreases. Whereas, we would never do a session without that. We wouldn't even do a session pre-competition day without practicing specific techniques. We hit that and then we always do positional sparring. Every time, we always go mount, turtle, closed guard, and then we might do start on a single leg, we might do start in cross ashi with the double leg control, maybe 50/50, but we always do those positions. That's what I think a lot of high-level teams don't do, because what they do , say you do IBJJF. The match is won or lost in guard, passing, and sweeping. When they do their sparring, it's always like they might do first-point throw or something, but very rarely, these guys work bad positions. That's obviously why they're so scared to do an EBI-ranked, because they never worked bad positions. Almost the same, I remember preparing for EBI, I spent very little time doing the bad positions. I was like, "If I get to overtime, I'm probably going to lose, so let me just prepare to win this thing in regulation," because regulation is where you get paid anyway. We always do both positions around. That's where I was let down entering the team for the first time, because I didn't have a great amount of escapes, I didn't have great total escapes, even close guard was really a neglected position. When a visitor comes into the team, they might be good at jiu-jitsu, but are they good at the whole package? If we take a visitor and we put him in mount, total closed guard, and we don't even do any rest in between those rounds. When there's no rest, you have to pace yourself. If you use to escape them with explosiveness, you're just not going to survive the training session. That's where I was really let down because coming as one of the better guys in the gym, you just very rarely get put in bad positions. When I was training mostly with Absolute St. Kilda, obviously, Lachlan Giles would be tough, there'd be other tough guys in the gym. I would spend very little time if ever on the mount. Then, you'd get put in mount in the training room with these elite-level guys, and you can't escape. The other thing they do really, really well is everyone always says this. Don't finish a submission, you don't need to crank a submission in the training room, but for the most part, people do. That means that guys are afraid to work their late stage defense. Whereas, say Danaher, no one's allowed to finish an armbar. You're allowed to extend an arm, but you're not allowed to apply any hip pressure to the arm. What that builds is your ability to anytime you get put in an armbar, you don't just tap when the arm gets extended, you get to give the hitchhiker a shot, you try to sit up, you try to use movement to clear it. That way, we build those reactions. We also build the reaction without fear, because Gordon was showing me about armbar escapes is, if I'm really tense and you break the grip and I'm resisting, you'll find my wrist every single time. If you know the grip is going to break and you relax and you throw the wrist, it's very hard for the guy finishing the armbar to secure the wrist and get a finish. We train those late stages every weekend. I haven't encountered any other team really do that. Those could be the key areas where I feel the most growth for me. **Sonny:** I really am interested in the idea of him not allowing people to finish armbars, because I really enjoy late stage escaping armbars, hitchhiker, reverse hitchhiker, that type. I love the look on people's faces when they think they got me dead to rights, and I can get out of there. I've taught those moves to white belts and people, and I can say that they like, "Oh, I'm never going to try that." It's a hard thing to actually get them to build confidence. We can put them in situational things with the arm extended, but I know that it's still-- For them to actually get the confidence to try it, it's going to take a lot, but you're saying that no one's tapping to armbars there, or no one's finishing them. Is that--? **Craig:** Yes, we just do not. There's never any arm injuries because you have that faith that if it's extended, they're not going to break out. It's just everyone knows the philosophy. If you can't make a guy submit and control them without applying breaking pressure, you don't know how to really finish the submission, but we just take that to heart. Everyone's heard that, how many people actually do it? You know what I mean? Typically, what I see is people will extend an arm in the gym. They look at the guy to tap, the guy that's going to tap, they apply hip pressure. Whereas really, if you can hold it for three seconds, you can break the arm. That's where we have these elaborate foot positions to prevent these escapes. Whereas like John says, to us, "The chances of you breaking someone's arm at the highest level without certain feet positions eliminating movement are pretty slim." You know what I mean? At the very high-level, guys are going to take a few pups. That just allows us to train those gray areas. Just things that you know, but they're just so hard to implement in the training room. **Sonny:** I guess that's something too, when you've got a group of professionals training full time that you can, it's easier to implement that in in some ways. I know that they could be like with the part-time as they want to come in on a Wednesday night and get a tap in. The catch and release might not suit them. That could be their little victory in the moment. That's probably, I guess, a benefit of the full-time, it's very clear that you guys are there to make money, and this is going to be a better way to do that. Yes, I really liked that. Is there any other positions that they'll do the same kind of thing for? **Craig:** I'm trying to think. Nothing as black and white, but basically just to control them so they cannot move before really even in putting that submission position into a dangerous area. I think that's where the guys' risk-taking confidence comes from, because say, for example, you know your mount escape is terrible. You're going to have a conservative game because you're going to be like, "If I miss this sweep attempt that may pass, they're going to a win." For us, the training with all these bad positions, bad areas, we have more confidence in our escapes, which means we have more confidence in taking risks during a match. That's why I think of like the guy Gary told him. He can take all these risks because his submission defenses are like 10 out of 10. He's almost impossible to pin and hold down. That's why I think Gary's style is so exciting. It's not that his style is exciting. It's that his submission defense and he can't be pinned is so tight that his confident to take all these risks during the match, because he has less to lose than the average competitor from taking those risks. I think that's built in the training room, the way we trained. **Sonny:** How much then do you find is tailored due to the emergence of sub-only rule sets and maybe a shift away from the IBJJF rule sets that's allowed that to happen? You put out a-- I thought it was a funny video of taking shots at some of the IBJJF, but I saw some other people posting, they were quite not happy with it. \[laughter\] **Craig:** The Brazilians weren't happy, because I said the secret from Brazil. They were like, "You should have just said the secrets of you jiu-jitsu." \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Do you ever see yourself going back to the IBJJF, or if they're bringing in leg locks or something, is that-- or is it just going to be for the professional grappling? You've got a great setup with Submission Underground at scenes. Is that just going to dictate how what's going on in the training room? **Craig:** Yes, I've definitely done. I don't think I'm going to do IBJJF events. It's great they've added heel hooks, but where I think they let down is the way points are scored. It'd say a takedown is getting your opponent's butt to the floor. I'm like, "Well, you should really have to pin them." If we cut that scramble short and say that this is the point-scoring position, then we're missing out on this whole range of things that can occur where the person is committing weight to you to try to pin you, which opens up other things. Whereas if they just have to put your butt to the floor, again, you cut that scramble so short. I think that there are certain areas that IBJJF rules set is still a big letdown. We train every day for ADCC rules, but if we have a competition with other rules coming up, then we just make the adjustment. Really, it's not a huge adjustment for me to go from ADCC style training to Submission Underground style training, because I just have to add in the overtime. For the most part, whether there's points or not, I'm going to have a very similar style, but again, IBJJF, the way the point scoring is done, I think it's too big a change to go from preventing yourself being pinned to preventing your butt touching the floor. I don't think I'll jump in there. Maybe if I can keep getting the silver medals, I'll do No-Gi Masters World. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That's a backup plan? **Craig:** Yes. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] With Submission Underground then too, the biggest thing that I've heard people complain is that five-minute time limit. I think everyone wants to see a bit longer on the board. Are you doing just strict five-minute rounds in preparation for that? How do you tailor yourself to those time limits? **Craig:** All right. Here's another thing that I didn't say about the training room, is that, say, we would probably do six rounds, but we don't have a timer on the board. John calls time whenever he deems fit. I think that's so important in the training room, because although it's good to know, to see the time and play to the time, that's a skill set that's very easily adapted. That's a mindset change. As long as you're mentally calm out there, you'll be able to adapt to the score board. What I notice is, say you do six rounds, probably the last 30, 20 seconds, the guys will look at the clock and I'll deem whether they can do any more jiu-jitsu. That adds up over time. Whereas for us, we don't see, we don't know when the round is going to end. That means we have to do jiu-jitsu the entire round every round in the training room. For us, it could even be up to 30 seconds to a minute. I know a lot of guys, if they get a good position and they stay center a minute, they're just like, "Oh, I'm just going to hang out. I'm going to hang out here the rest of the round, maybe shoot some reckless sub off at the end. For us, we do jiu-jitsu the whole round. For Submission Underground, we just add in an extra round. Let's say, we'll actually go for five minutes on the board. John will say, "You've got to use the most aggressive style possible. Just chase this guy down for five minutes.' I hate the fact that it's five. It should be at least 10. I think the submission-only set, it's got to be 10 minutes. I would be much more happy if Submission Underground just did Fight 2 Win stop. It's 10 minutes, whoever was more aggressive gets the victory. I prefer that to EBI, especially EBI with five minutes. EBI with a five-minute round is basically an overtime for them. **Sonny:** The last two, you've got to finish in that five minutes, so that's good, but yes, when there's too many, go to overtime. I still think EBI is probably the best way to finish that or to set, to get that submission finish. I probably think it still works better in that tournament format where you have to have someone moving through. Yes, I think we'd all prefer 10 minutes if you can. You seem to have some sway there, right? You have Submission Undergrounds, it seems like that's your sport now? **Craig:** Not enough sway. I haven't really got a clear understanding of why they don't do it. It's something about the UFC boss saying, "We want this many matches and we want in this amount of time. This is your time allocated." Which, to me, doesn't really make sense either because it's not a TV show. Really, the event can go over. That's the only good thing about Submission Underground though, it's like Quintet. It was a quick event. It's like two hours to see everything. Whereas some events, like I remember Kasai went for five hours. Like Fight 2 Win, I don't know if anyone would ever watch an entire Fight 2 Win, because they last for hours. Yes, there's something strange there where I think it's that they don't want to take away EBI overtime. They don't want to lose overtime to add in another five minutes. I was trying to convince them to do something crazy, whereas Giles suddenly decides, he's like, "If the first five minutes sucks, the match is over," but if they're having a good match, he's like, "Yes, we'll extend it." There's got to be some holes like that. If it's a boring match, you guys are out of here. You know what I mean? **Sonny:** I reckon you could convince him doing like the Caesar says thumbs up or thumbs down, just like cut the child in his little bunker. **Craig:** He would love that. **Sonny:** I think that could be a sell on there. **Craig:** I want penalties. I tried to convince him. I said, "Guys, we got to do five minutes right. Here's how it works. If someone's inactive and they get a penalty, they lose an overtime round," to incentivize action. **Sonny:** I would be for that, because from what I'm watching with wrestling, especially like folk style wrestling, they give penalty so quick for inactivity. It like what Quintet was doing as well where they even stood up from mount for inactivity, which is crazy in any other jiu-jitsu tournament, but Quintet can get away with it. I think that it works, right? It's like you better go for the finish. Otherwise, you could get screwed up pretty quick. **Craig:** Really, there's like a spectrum of sports to sports entertainment. I feel like Submission Underground lies very close to sports entertainment rather than sports. They should have a lot of leeway to play with the rules. For me, if the fans are paying to see the events, we should go out there and try to finish the other guy. That's where a lot of guys are let down today, and that's why I think a lot of guys don't make any money in jiu-jitsu, is because they're so concerned about winning and winning by any means necessary, that it's really almost such a selfish pursuit, and the fans don't care. If you ask people out there, "Who are your favorite grapplers?" It's really got nothing to do with accomplishments, it's got to do with how they compete. It's not so much putting on a show. If you compete as I think you should to punish your opponent, it will be exciting, and you will be rewarded financially with sponsorships, and seminars, DVDs. If you never finished any opponent, no one's ever going to buy your instruction. I don't think you should just compete to make money. I'm saying if you compete properly, you will, as a byproduct of that, make money. I think it's true. If you look at the last ADCC, who made the biggest impact? Lachlan Giles. He got third. Lachlan has lost first round in his weight division, three events in a row. He's made more money out off his instructional than guys that have won multiple times. If you compete, again, as I think you should, to go out and dominate and finish rather than play the rules, you will be rewarded. I think the fans will show how much they appreciate you basically with their wallets. **Sonny:** It's a good point. I am thinking that I haven't seen anyone release an instructional of a system for winning by an advantage, but maybe that's a gap in the market, I don't know. \[laughs\] **Craig:** It's just funny. It's such a strange thing to say. MMA fighters, I feel like those guys more or less fight for money rather than to be a complete martial artist, but they also pursue to finish, because it does get them paid. I feel like grappling could be a bigger sport if guys had a similar approach. You don't even need to go crazy with your self-marketing and stuff. Some people's matches like Roberto Jimenez, his matches speak for themselves. That guy, he's going to go out, he's going to push forward, and he's going to attack his opponents no matter who they are, no matter how big they are. I think he gets rewarded for that with how many people were going to tune in to watch him compete. **Sonny:** It's a very interesting change in mindset, I think, for your leading professional grapplers who are putting up money for bet matches and things of that nature. We even had one of your friends, Isaac Mitchell, out here in Australia who's a purple belt but he was offering $1,000 just to try and get any black belt takers to get matches. Difficult, no one wants to do it because even though it's money, it's going to be a damn hard roll. It's a different mentality too from that old school of you get your ranking, climb your way up, and do it that way, whereas he knows he wants to make money doing this sport and that's the way to do it. **Craig:** It's a confidence thing though because say, for example, I spoke to Henry Cejudo about this. It all comes down to self-belief. Cejudo said to me he's never trained harder than when he started the Triple C and started talking smack to people. It's the same with Gordon. I feel like people only see the side of things where if an athlete talks shit, people are going to pay attention to him, because either they'll support him or they'll want him to lose. People think that the athlete does that specifically to make more money. Say, for example, if you talk shit about your opponent, you are going to train harder because, now, you have more to lose. Say if Isaac or someone does a bet match, as far as I know, I don't think Isaac's spoken too much shit but if you a bet match, people see that self-confidence, but for the athlete themselves, now they've got to back it up, not just financially. They're putting off this image that they have, this confidence that they can get it done. Now, you'd better train hard because you're going to lose money and lose face. It's a way to guarantee that you're going to show up in the training room. I know that motivates Gordon, I feel like Gordon would quit the sport if everyone was just nice to him. He wouldn't have the motivation to show up, but he's more motivated by proving people wrong. He makes these statements that he's going to have to eat if he loses, and because he has to eat it, now he better get training, and he better get training very, very hot. **Sonny:** That's interesting. What is it that does make him then so different from from everyone else it seems? Is it his mentality? **Craig:** I think so. I think it's the self-belief, but it's also-- He's got enough self-belief to think he can do it different. He's confident enough in himself that he think he can play the game different and win. Whereas some people might have enough self-belief that they can emulate other styles and try to do them better, Gordon's got enough confidence to think he can technically do things different, do things better. He can play the game better based on that self-belief, technically. That's the thing with him, there's no shortcuts. He is obviously huge and jacked, but he's as technical as he is physically imposing. Obviously, so you've got the physique, you've got the technical ability, and you've also got the self-belief. It's just the perfect storm now. **Sonny:** Yes, no doubt. If you've got all those, you're in good measure. The other thing too is then falling under Danaher. I can't remember who it was, maybe it was Chael Sonnen saying that he's probably the first person with a full-time coach, whereas Danaher is Gordon Ryan's coach, and he is a professional athlete in that manner. Do you think that holds true? John, is he your full-time coach in the same way or is that just between those guys? **Craig:** No, for sure because it's almost like it gives you a myth to believing, because John can't roll, and he never competed. Probably around the time he really competed was when he had some crazy injuries. He's had his hip replaced and his knee replaced. We have this guy that is obviously very well-read in all martial arts aspects like in judo, in wrestling, he's as a historian in all these techniques, but we have this guy on the sidelines who watches us every single day and adapts the next day's class or the post-training discussion to the shortcomings of a current training session or what we did well. The next day, we've got a guy that watched basically every single round adapt the class on the flyer to us. We take everything he says as gospel because, say your coach is good, but you're also good enough to recognize areas based on rolling with him where he is not as good. Now immediately, that coach role, sad to say, has been tarnished a little bit, because he can see his shortcomings in the training session, whereas we have this myth, because he can't roll, and we have the confidence in every technique he teaches. We see the success of the techniques. Obviously, GSP initially, but then Gordon and stuff, Gordon and Gary and stuff. Really, it's like you have this myth to believe in. Like Taza said it to me, Taza's like, "You give up the problem solving yourself to this other guy to have complete confidence in." He is a full-time coach, which no one else has. I'm sure André Galvão , I've trained with him, is an excellent coach, but he's an athlete himself. Being an athlete, you have to be selfish. **Sonny:** That's fascinating. The idea, then, of that myth from him not rolling. That is definitely one of the things that would separate Jujitsu from, say, your traditional martial arts would be the instructors on the mat every day rolling with people. I know that there would be a lot of people who would, if you told them that you're instructor didn't roll, obviously not mentioning that it's John Danaher and one of the tops of one of the most successful teams, it would be a red flag warning sign to not go near that gym. In a way that the traditional martial arts did use it as a myth to then enforce, or allow, them to pass on suboptimal techniques, shall we say. Bushido \[laughs\] might be the other way to put it. That's how you get no-touch KOs or something like that. Where no one can ever try it on the coach. It builds that myth down a bad path. In this case, you're getting the results in competition. It's a myth that's allowed you to succeed. **Craig:** Yes. Also, just think about it like, say even you, personally, when you watch competition footage, or you watch people training, you learn things from watching them. Whereas John has probably one of the best training rooms in the world to watch, train, six rounds a day, every day. He can see trends. He can see things that happen in the training room that we're all doing or all not doing, and obviously adapt on the fly. It's like he has that raw footage to watch and analyze every single day. Whereas again, other coaches have the ability to do it, but if you're training yourself, your energy levels to pursue it aren't going to be as great as someone who just gets to watch it every day. What's mind-blowing to me is he can demonstrate every technique perfectly. Obviously, every now and then he can only do things on a certain side because of his injuries. I've never seen him drill these techniques, but he teaches them, and shows the move perfectly. I'm like, "Some of these techniques are things that he's just visualized in his head. Then show in the training room," which is mind-blowing to me. If I think of something and try to teach it, I really have to have put some practice into it. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] Yes. I was just thinking now, has he ever invited you back to his house? Have you seen what goes on? Or, is that all just left to the mythical side of John Danaher? **Craig:** I think that it's changed. It's changed over time. I think, traditionally, no one ever went to his place. I think that the first guys to go to his house were the BJJ Fanatics guys, Zenga and Bernardo. They did an interview there. It was an interview in his new apartment after getting the BJJ Fanatics money, versus, I don't know if anyone went into his old one. I heard a story about Henzo trying to follow him home and actually see inside his apartment and stuff. \[laughs\] Again, I don't know what's true and what's not true. I remember John told us a story where he got kicked out of an apartment because a guy was playing loud music. The neighbors were angry and John choked him unconscious. John's got some crazy stories about that. The best stories are probably when he first moved to New York and New York was a bit of a crazy place. These days he's different. I know the guys have been around to his house. He talks about bringing us around for a barbecue and stuff. I think John, today, is very different to John, even 5, 10 years ago. **Sonny:** Sure. That brings up something, then, with the myth. Him moving to Puerto Rico and he has put the pictures up of him in the long sleeve, long pants. Is that man going to start rocking? Can you make him a rash vest, singlet, or something? Can you get him into a pair of budgie smugglers? Is that the goal? **Craig:** He keeps the same look, but he's changed the New Balance to Crocs. I was trying to find someone to pay to paint his crocs into New Balance style. I haven't found it yet. It's the same image. Just got a fanny pack full of cash and knives. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] It's the name of a rap song, I'm sure. Probably the last thing, touching on John, I wanted to discuss, one is probably, do you still read all his Instagram posts? Is that recommended? Is that part of a team? You got to read all the posts? \[laughs\] **Craig:** I don't read them too often. Obviously, I read the ones he tags me or puts a picture of me and stuff. Yes, I think they're just good little snippets, you know what I mean? I think even someone has turned them into a book. A physical book. **Sonny:** Yes. I saw that too. \[laughs\] The other is his insistence on Japanese names. Especially as an Australian, one of my goals, I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn a new language. I want to become fluent in Danaher. I want to get all my Ashis and my Kata Gatames, I want to get it down this year." I start using that in the training room. Of course, everyone starts busting my chops. Giving me slack like, "Oh, look. Aren't you getting fancy standing over there with your names." How have you taken that? **Craig:** Right. Well, when I filmed my last instruction, luckily I had Placido there, which I think is fluent in Danaher. I'm picking it up. Picking up some parts of it. I think it's funny just because people misinterpret why John does these things. People will be like, "Oh, he's shining us down hard and stuff. Then when you get to know him, he's actually just a crazy respectful historian. Whereas the average person might try to honor the past to look smarter. John, obviously, doesn't give a fuck how he looks. With what he wears, he's not trying to appear any way other than what he is. When he honors the past moves, he's just given respect to Japan. Quite often, when a move already has a name in Japan, he just up and gives it that name. Say, when we've come up with new position recently, he will give it a Western name. He would call it S1 or S2 or something like that. I think he takes a lot of slack. People think he's trying to appear a certain way. Again, if you look at how he dresses and stuff, he just doesn't give a fuck of what people think of him. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] No doubt. No arguments with me on that. **Craig:** He'll just fight about it. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** The thing I would think though, with his insistence on the Japanese names, is-is there any passive-aggressiveness to Brazil, in not using anything in Portuguese names? He's skipping that going straight back to Japan. **Craig:** Maybe, but I think it's funny. Say this whole thing with now all the Brazilian slack. I remember, I was just training with Gabriel Checco. He was bringing up about American Jujitsu. How much they hate it. He's like, "They've just stolen it from Brazil." I'm like, "Well, you guys stole it from Japan." You know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes. **Craig:** If we go back far enough, everyone's stealing everything. **Sonny:** That's it. The history, I find fascinating, myself. It has revolutionized how people are training, and competing, and earning money in the sport, as well. That side of things, it's undeniable that he's put out the most comprehensive system, in terms that is an actual proper system of anyone, really. You're putting out your own instructionals and everything like that. You even put out-- I saw a joke one, "Just stuff I stole from John and Gordon," or something. Done up in a mock BJJ Fanatic style. How do you, then, find the ability to market yourself, and your own system, and learn? Take what he's given you and then learn and adapt, to be able to put something out? **Craig:** Well say, for example, I had a lot of success with the first heel hook instructional I put out. At the time, John hadn't released anything. Obviously, Lachlan's *Leg Lock One* came a couple of years later, after his ADCC success. When I joined the DBS-- because not everyone on the team does make instructionals, I knew, perhaps, I wouldn't be allowed to make an instructional. I knew that I would cut my earning potential, but I wanted to learn from who I consider the best grapplers in the world today. I wanted to learn their stuff so bad, I was willing to forego the financial dollars of making instructionals. Really, after I hit ADCC 2017, I probably could have just done an Eddie Bravo, and just lived off that moment. I really wanted to ensure that I wasn't-- I'm not saying that Eddie's was a fluke, but a lot of people thought I had a fluke of a weekend. I really wanted to, first, prove that it wasn't. I would also just get better. I was willing to sacrifice the money of [instructionals to join the team](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/). Again, it is a lot of their techniques, really, that they've innovated. Obviously, it sounds silly to say their techniques. Again, I guess they're the popularizer of a lot of these techniques. **Craig:** I was willing to sacrifice that. Then again, after joining the team and still being successful and stuff, John encouraged me to still work with BJJ Fanatics and make instructions. Again, it's going to be a merge of things that I do and the addition of what they do. Really, I might have certain techniques down, because of obviously the variations of triangles. I wasn't, obviously, fluent in all of those variations. After training with the team I was. Although it says my name on it, really, a lot of the DVDs will cover similar stuff. Just slightly different interpretations. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. It is still your stamp on it. In terms of making BJJ Fanatics, I got to ask. One of the most interesting ones that you were involved in was the filming of Kazushi Sakuraba's DVDs. I'm a big Sakuraba fan, talking about John Danaher being a mythical creature. For me, that's Sakuraba where his in-ring accomplishments are just incredible. I guess technically, though, I think he's in a weird spot where he's certainly not out there saying that this is the most up-to-date stuff. His YouTube channel is all just jokes, pretty much \[chuckles\]. He's just entertaining. Just take me through your takeaway, what that experience was like. How it came about and what you enjoyed. **Craig:** I'm trying to remember how it came about. I think me and Zenga, from Fanatics, are pretty close. We've talked in the past about who would be cool to get on there. I remember we were joking even about doing an instructional with Karelin. Having me as the new kid to get thrown around. Every technique. We would talk about how big of fans we were of Sakuraba. Then I remember him saying, "Oh, if I get the deal done, I'll bring you. We'll put you in the instructional." Then, really the focus was we'll put me and Barnardo in there. Some people teach very shallow techniques, but when you ask them questions, the level of technique expands. We were really under the idea that if me and Bernardo were in there, and we'll have it as if Sakuraba was teaching us a private lesson. Stakuraba, when he teaches the technique, it's 30 seconds long. Then me and Bernardo would try to expand to give the audience the full scope of the technique. It was very strange. A lot of strange techniques. During the pressure point techniques, when he would show the technique, I'd be like, "Oh, can you show it on Bernardo?" I wanted to see Bernardo suffer in pain. \[laughter\] **Craig:** Some aspects of it became a bit of a joke. Really just hanging around Sakuraba was very interesting. He's a very strange guy. He doesn't speak English very well, so we had to use this translator. It was just stuff. I remember asking him about why he started MMA. He just said he was a professional wrestler, and other wrestlers started fighting, and asked him if he would fight. He's like, "I didn't want to be a pussy." I said, "Yes, I would fight." That's literally how his career started. He's like, "If they asked me, I wasn't going to be a pussy and back down. I decided to do it." Then, it was just Sakuraba telling us about how he overcame fear. He would tell us that whenever he was scared of an opponent, he would just run to the ring faster. He'd want it to be over with quicker. He's like, "If I'm scared of an opponent, I'm going to rush to the ring. Then, as soon as the bell goes, I'm going to rush for them." He's like, "To overcome the fear. I just need to run at the problem." A brave guy. A crazy guy, with what he was able to achieve. **Sonny:** Crazy. Even saying that he had fear. Obviously, he's human, of course. The challenges that he did accomplish are just mind-boggling. That's an insight. With the pressure point techniques, I think part of him, it does seem that he is trolling people 50% of the time, right? **Craig:** Yes. **Sonny:** Do you ever feel that he's just putting one over you guys at all? **Craig:** It's hard to say where the joke comes in. I think certain pressure points-- it's like if you were to tickle someone. They're going to be ticklish, unless it's actually a life and death situation. Then they're probably not going to notice that stuff as much. When he applies pressure, it almost feels like it's a tickling type of pressure. Whereas, in the relaxed environment, I'm going to react. If it's in a roll, like I say, if it's in a competition, someone sticks their elbow into your leg to open your close guard, you're not going to notice it in competition. In the training room, it's going to bother you. Sakuraba, though, very funny guy. I'm not allowed to release this video, but he obviously smokes a lot of cigarettes. I remember him trying to explain to me with a packet of Marlboro Reds, as if that was the risk, how he broke Henzo's elbow. He's got a packet of cigarettes and he's trying to explain the grips on a packet of cigarettes. I remember when I was asking him a lot of questions about his lifestyle as a athlete. I was like, "Did you smoke throughout your career?" He's like, "Yes, but no more than eight cigarettes a day." Then he would drink a lot throughout his career. He would tell me the track and field athletes in Japan are the only ones that don't smoke or drink. He's like, "It's only those cardio athletes that don't do it." He also was drunk. Get this, before Quintet, the first one he was going to compete in-- and he's 50-years-old, the scramble guys that went out to him, the Polaris guys, Team Polaris, went out to have dinner with him the night before Quintet. He always drinks. They said, "Oh, do you want to have a drink?" He's like, "No, not tonight." They were like, "Is that because you're competing tomorrow." He's like, "No, I'm hung over from yesterday." **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Craig:** He said he drunk throughout his whole career, though. He would be smoking in the back locker room. He's like, "I don't care." **Sonny:** That's the crazy thing. We're talking about being professional athletes, professional grapplers these days, it doesn't make sense how he was able to do what he did. Compete 90 minutes, then compete another 15 against-- 90 against Royce and then come out again, competing another 15 against Igor Vovchanchyn. That doesn't make sense how that's even possible, for someone who's smoking and drinking. **Craig:** Those were the glory days in MMA. Now, although you have personalities, everyone's an athlete. Back then people were just fucking crazy. You know what I mean? \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** Yes. Is that something that you see with the professional grappling? We're talking about Submission Underground and the link between sports and sports entertainment. Is that something that you see a potential with going forward? Again, you've got the leopard print. Is that something that you're trying to focus on? **Craig:** Yes, just to have better marketing. Probably the first proper influence I had in Jujitsu-- a lot of Australians, in terms of competition in Jujitsu, was Kit Dale. Kit was able to use humor to almost transcend Jujitsu. He made funny clips and stuff that people outside of Jujitsu found entertaining. I just saw Kit being able to differentiate himself from the rest of the Jujitsu athletes. He actually got a lot of fans for it. I think that's what makes Australians almost special in the sport. You'll see Gary and Gordon, they'll make a lot of fun, a lot of jokes about other people and stuff, but I feel like the American sense of humor is less self-deprecating and resilient. I don't know enough about the language to understand the humor at all, but to me, it seems like it's a very serious, a little flat. We'll have a fist fight if there's any jokes. I see that pervasive in the sport. I just want to keep it lighthearted. I can make jokes about other people. I think if I still make fun of myself a lot of the time. To me, it's indirectly marketing myself. I'm just trying to take the piss of the sport. To me, it's very serious. I'm like, "At the end of the day, we're just wrestling other dudes." We're not performing a surgery here. What is to be taken serious in this sport? It's just a game. **Sonny:** Yes. I think taking the piss is something that is an Australian trait, that we do understand the merit of it. Where, when I'm doing it myself, taking the piss out of people, it's like, "Hey, forgive me. That's how I was raised. That's what we do." Even personally, with my friends, if they didn't take the piss out of me, I'd probably start to get worried that they're talking about me behind my back, you know? \[chuckles\] **Craig:** Exactly. It's funny because the egos in competition Jujitsu are affected by the egos guys develop just learning the line of scope. I always find there's a transformation, especially when it's your scope. Even when you see people that get given a teaching role, they get that little bit of power. It starts to make them a little strange. I remember there was a Scottish guy. I can't remember his last name, Dan. I did a seminar, too, with him **Craig:** straight after ADCC 2017. He was telling me this thing he does with his students. He goes, "No one will laugh more at your jokes than around grading time." What he does is he'll go up in front of his class and he would just say a terrible joke from time to time. If people laugh, he'll be like, "What are you laughing at? This shit isn't funny. Stop kissing my ass." He's like, "You guys, that's how I keep myself in check in front of my own students. They'll boost the ego too much." \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Yes. That could work. Also sounds like it's the trick of leading them into the setup, as well. Do you see yourself, then, ever opening up your own place, or doing anything like that? Or, is that just too far off? **Craig:** No, for sure. I'll be 30 this year. Obviously, it's going to be worse every year. I already feel slightly more injuries, slightly more time to recover with things. I need, maybe, a few more days off. Especially because I'm the oldest guy on the team. When I'm training with guys like Nicky. Nicky Ryan's, I think, 19. Nicky Rod's 23. Pretty young guys. I do see myself moving back to Australia to open a team. The goal is that I want to make enough money off instructionals and competing, that when I do open a team, I'll open a team just for my own enjoyment. I don't have to run it. I don't have to make this huge money-making gym. I want a gym that is going to help local Aussies and stuff, just through the experiences I've had, the connections I have made. To help grow Australian Jujitsu. Again, not from a, "I want to make as much money. I'm going to have the biggest school ever." I don't want to open a business like that. I feel like you have to put up with a lot, in that sense. A guy comes in and he's a bit of a dick. You want to be like, "We can change this guy for the better." When you think about the bottom line too much, I feel like sometimes you have to put up with certain students. Whereas, Danaher puts up with nothing. There's no bullshit. This is how it is. I don't want to be an authoritarian. At the same time, I want to have the gym run a certain way to maximize people's growth and stuff. Not be too concerned with the profit margins of the gym. I feel like it'll be a better environment for me, and the guys. Rather than thinking of the big business model. **Sonny:** Yes, I think that is probably a luxury to be able to do that. Not to have to worry about that. On the flip side, I would say is that if we do believe that there is the benefit in people doing Jujitsu, then it's we want to be able to get as many people to do it as possible, as well. Of course, that's a balancing act then, of which side you're going to come down on. I think, obviously, if you're a professional, there's pretty clear of which way you need to be looking at. **Craig:** I'll probably do it like John's style. You've got a gym within a gym. John teaches classes that everyone's welcome to, but it's clearly tailored towards the upper echelon. Also, the gym has other instructors that are going to tailor the classes to a different demographic. That way it can still benefit everyone. The people that want to reap those specific rewards can do so. That's what I think about Henzo was special, was crazy. It would be a Monday morning class, with 100 people in there, at 7:00 AM. It was meant to be 7:00 AM, but it would start at 7:45. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** What would your advice be, then, for Australians? Maybe you've got a younger Australian listening to this who wants to follow in the Craig Jones footsteps. How do they go about doing it? In terms of their development, their learning, with not maybe having that access directly to go overseas? Especially not at the moment. What kind of learning tips would you give people to accelerate them? Hey, I know you put out a recent video breakdown as well. The breakdowns could be the way as well. What would you say is a good way to go about things? **Craig:** I would just say to compete in everything, and aggressively chase everything. Take every match. I see guys get a tiny bit of success, maybe they'll get on an international show, they might not even win on an International Superfight, then they'll come back to Australia and be like, "I won't take that match. I won't do that tournament." They're like, "I feel like I'm above that now." Even people in America, even Americans I'll see, they'll be worried about taking what they deem a match below their level. To me, I'm like, "It's all amateur until it's on BJJ Heroes." No one cares about who beat me before ADCC 2017. The only person that cared was me. If someone today were to brag about beating me prior to then, they look a bit silly. It's like, "Oh, well that's different." They divide my career into two points. Before and after that point. I would say for all the up-and-comers, do as much as you can. Get as much experience as you can, to be better prepared for when you do have that moment. The assumption would be that if you do all the preparation and training properly, make the sacrifices, if you stick in it long enough, you will have that moment. Don't protect what you don't already have yet. I see that the biggest detriment with competitors, even some of my friends in Australia will be like, "No, I won't compete against them." I'm like, "All right. If you're better than them, go out and show that you're better than them. That's marketing in and of itself." I think people are scared to lose what only they think they have. **Sonny:** Especially with the nature of video on the internet nowadays. You want nothing better than to get a submission on video that you can show people, I guess. **Craig:** Exactly. A good guy for doing this is-- do you know Robert Degle? **Sonny:** Yes. **Craig:** Degle, by all accounts, I hope he doesn't take offense to this, but he hasn't won anything major. He has beaten good guys. I would say a guy like that is someone to watch. Degle's always competing. He's always analyzing his footage. He's always putting it out there on the internet. He's always marketing himself in a way to show off how technical he is. I think a lot of people got to learn from a guy like that's marketing model. Degle sells instructional products and does well. He's marketed himself in a certain way. Obviously, he did have the attachment to the Henzo crew and the Danaher crew, but I would look at a guy like that for inspiration. It always keeps coming back to money, but for you to survive in this sport, you have to make money. It's going to be better if you can make money and just train. Rather than teach and train. To me, obviously, you work a full-time job, or you work a part-time job chasing Jujitsu goals. If there's a certain point where someone wants you to teach classes, now all your money is made within Jujitsu. Maybe you even hit a point where you just have to teach a few privates. Once you make enough money, that's when you can really start selfishly focusing on competition goals. It's always coming back to money, but you need it to-- **Sonny:** I think that's a good area to have been focusing in with you. It is, I guess, probably where your mind is at the moment, of how you can do this sport professionally. It's been great to get that kind of insight into it. Yes, Robert, a great example. I have spoken to him before. He got a submission over Sean O'Malley. That went gangbusters. Sean's doing well in the UFC. He's got his name. He only got those opportunities for entering in all these tournaments. Finishing off one last question, because when this one happened, I talked about it with everyone, which was your match with Vinny Magalhães, where you contorted his leg into strange angles. It snapped and did all sorts of nasty things. At the time, everyone-- that was all we were talking about. I just want to get what happened? How did things end up at that point? Where you've got someone's leg, literally bent around in the other direction. You're having a chat with them in a cage, somewhere in America, "Is your leg all right, mate?" What was going on? **Craig:** That's the flip side of what I was talking about with Gordon Ryan and talking shit, and having confidence to back it up. Where Vinny's marketed himself as basically unbreakable. If you're going to market yourself that way and you get put in a breaking point, you're probably going to have to let it break. I would be careful the angle at which you try to sell. **Craig:** Vinny's, I guess, a Brazilian with a good sense of humor. For me, I saw him making those jokes, and it is a joke really. Obviously, he knows he can be broken. It was just the angle. It was the corner he backed himself into. It was a strange setup for the match. I believe it was the only sporting event on in the entire world. Chael Sonnen was the only one brave enough to actually do anything, in terms of sport during the outbreak. During the early days, when people didn't really understand how dangerous it was or how dangerous it could be. Yes, we did this event in a barn about an hour outside of Portland. Obviously, Chael's from Oregon. We were out in the Oregon country, at a random location we weren't allowed to give out. At a hotel they told us not to announce to anyone. Vinny was down to do it. Me and Vinny both felt bad, because we had a tag team debacle, which was I was sick. I was trying not to compete and make Nicky Rod do everything. Vinny played a real weird game, where he didn't engage Nicky Rod. Then Kyle Boehm won in overtime and then everyone hated it. Obviously, even us as competitors, we thought it was silly. I tried to give Chael the money back after the event. I'm like, "I didn't do anything, man. Take the money back." Then Chael wanted me and Vinny to compete. We were like, "Yes, we'll do it. We'll jump back in to try to make amends," because Chael is a really good guy. That's how the match setup happened. We both probably were unprepared, because of the COVID circumstances. We jumped in anyway to make amends. What happened with that previous show, again, Vinny was talking a little shit before the match. He was like, "He's not going to submit me. He's definitely not going to leglock me." I know Gary and Gordon, both, had been in some heel hooks. I think Gary's were probably worse. I know Vinny's leg was popping, Gary told me, during that match. The only doubt I had before the match was like, "Maybe this guy really is this flexible." Then you have to talk yourself down. You're like, "Everyone's leg can break." I was really confident, just for me to see how it would break. Given the flexibility of his knee and ankle ligaments, it just so happened to be his fibula that snapped. I think his fibula snapped and his entire ankle disconnected from the base of the leg. He had no panic reaction. No reaction. The first time it broke, I didn't know it broke. I heard a pop. Then we looked at each other and he didn't react. I gave him props. I gave him a fist bump. I was like "Damn, you are that flexible." Then leading up to the second time I grabbed it, he was like, "I think you broke my leg." I was looking at it, and it was messed up. I was even confused what to do at the moment. Really, I should have just stood up, and he would have had to walk on it. He didn't really understand what to do. We continued the match and I went straight back for the same leg. **Sonny:** What else are you going to do, I guess? That's \[laughs\] the name of the sport. **Craig:** After I ripped on it a second time, he started asking the ref, "How much time's left?" You don't know in Underground. I remember thinking, goddamn, this guy's crazy. He just wants it to be over and go to overtime. Try and win it in overtime. Actually, he told me afterward, he was asking the ref because he wanted to survive the fight. Then retire before overtime. He's not smart. He's crazy. **Sonny:** You understand a good way to wrap it up, where you do have to be careful with the shit talk or the marketing angle that you might put yourself in. When the leglocks don't work. \[chuckles\] Well, they do. **Craig:** Be careful what you say before a match. **Sonny:** Yes, and I think that's probably an interesting place to wrap things up. Craig, I really appreciate you giving me your time. I know you've had a busy year competing, which is pretty incredible, considering all those restrictions that have been going on around, that you have been able. I think, for sure you're the most active out of the Danaher group. **Craig:** I think so. I'm not necessarily by their choice. I just got lucky that, obviously, Chael Sonnen's Chael Sonnen. He just doesn't give a fuck what's happening. **Sonny:** Yes. A great year. You've got the new DVD out, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way that they can go about doing that? **Craig:** Probably Instagram, just CraigJonesBJJ. That's the way to see what I'm up to. It's mostly jokes, but you'll see some Jujitsu on there. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** Is there any more breakdowns in the pipeline for the YouTube channel? **Craig:** Oh, I've got to get back into it. More than you, I'm apt to do a lot more video editing stuff. Obviously, just with the move, getting everything ready. Yes, I'm going to be trying to put up as many breakdowns. Trying to sneak out some of the devious secrets in those videos. The secrets. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] There you go. Look, mate, thanks so much. I better run. I'm actually going to be training tomorrow morning with one of your old coaches Tiago Ferrero. **Craig:** Oh, cool, yes. **Sonny:** He lets us know when he used to know the small Craig Jones. **Craig:** Oh, when he used to take us out drinking together. **Sonny:** I'll bring that one up. \[laughs\] He corrupted the man. **Craig:** Definitely. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** All right, man. I really appreciate it. Have a great day. **Craig:** You too, man. Catch you. **Sonny:** Thank you. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Steve Kwan On Efficiency in Learning Techniques & Mental Models for BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) **Published:** September 8, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Steve Kwan BJJ Mental Models](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/steve_kwan_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Steve Kwan BJJ Mental Models › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Steve Kwan**, black-belt co-host of **BJJ Mental Models** and tech-sector efficiency expert, about using mental models to fast-track Jiu-Jitsu learning, why setting tight parameters accelerates skill acquisition and how to filter the flood of instructionals so you stay focused instead of overwhelmed. We cover hobbyist-friendly training programmes, decision-making frameworks borrowed from Toyota’s *kaizen* and why an open-source culture lifts the whole community. ## Listen To The Steve Kwan Interview: ### Listen To The Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/efficiency-in-learning-techniques-making-decisions/id1476963733?i=1000490426671) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6eeHE19qpkKvFOPQELfiB8?si=fa90e4205f5b4857) ## Key Topics ### Learning efficiency for the time-poor hobbyist Kwan balances a senior tech role with two or three mat sessions a week, so every round must count. He sets a single objective before class, measures success afterwards and treats each mistake as “tuition, not failure”. The habit mirrors *kaizen* loops in industry: small, constant upgrades beat occasional overhauls. ### Mental models as decision filters Inspired by Charlie Munger, he collects heuristics—80/20, opportunity cost, alignment theory—and applies them mid-roll. Instead of memorising hundreds of techniques he asks, “Does this choice break my opponent’s posture, structure or base?” If not, he moves on. The framework lets him improvise yet stay fundamentally sound. ### Constraints-led practice Innovation comes from limits. Kwan pulls guard every round when guard retention is the day’s focus, or forces hip-bump sweeps until they feel natural. By removing old crutches he exposes problems quickly and gathers instant feedback, a strategy borrowed from Toyota’s “stop-the-line” method. ### Information overload & the YouTube buffet Endless instructionals tempt students to chase novelty instead of depth. Kwan suggests a “just-in-time” diet: choose one position, buy or stream only material that serves that goal, then pause consumption until tests in sparring show real improvement. ### Culture of open sharing Cross-training and free knowledge exchanges raise everyone’s game. Kwan argues gyms that lock students inside “intellectual borders” risk the decline seen in some traditional arts; the strongest clubs in Vancouver actively invite visitors and edit their curriculum in response to outside pressure. ## Key Takeaways - Training improves faster when each session has a clear goal instead of becoming unfocused mat time. - Mental models help organise techniques into reusable principles that reduce the amount of information a grappler has to memorise. - Constraints can improve learning by narrowing attention to the problem that matters most. - Efficiency matters especially for hobbyists, who need training methods that produce useful learning within limited time. ## Resources #### Quotes - “Innovation comes from constraints, right?” - “I think one of the best things that anyone can do to improve Jiu Jitsu on a day-by-day basis is before you do any training session, think in advance about what your goal is for that day.” - “You have to make sure, as my brother often says, your ego is not your amigo.” - “Your focus should be for the long term, not winning the daily battle of, did I get the tap in the gym.” - “Learning to play the rules is so important if you want to actually take this seriously as a competitive sport.” #### Links - **[BJJ Mental Models website](https://bjjmentalmodels.com "BJJ Mental Models website")** - **[Steve Kwan Instagram](https://instagram.com/bjjmentalmodels "Steve Kwan Instagram")** - [***Poor Charlie’s Almanack* by Charles T. Munger (mental-model primer)**](https://archive.org/details/poor-charlies-almanack-the-wit-and-wisdom-of-charles-t.-munger-pdfdrive) - [***Make It Stick* by Brown, Roediger & McDaniel (spaced-repetition research)**](https://www.amazon.com.au/Make-Stick-Science-Successful-Learning/dp/0674729013) ## Steve Kwan Interview TRANSCRIPT **Sonny Brown:** Welcome to episode number 25 of the Sonny Brown Breakdown. I'm your host, Sonny Brown and in this episode, I talk to Steve Kwan. Now Steve is one-half of the excellent podcast, BJJ Mental Models and he's also a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt and works professionally at a tech company in a leadership role where he looks at improving efficiency and process and operations. We discuss how he's taken the lessons he's learned there and with the use of mental models, how they can be applied to learning techniques and making decisions for jiu-jitsu. We get into the discussion about how parameters and constraints can benefit your learning and how influx of information from instructionals and social media could possibly harm or also help your learning process and really get into the details of how we use those mental models to act as a filter for teaching and learning jiu-jitsu. I'm a big fan of his podcast, BJJ Mental Models. It was an honor to chat to him and I really hope you enjoy it too. Again, if you'd like to get in touch with me, my email address is sonnybrown@gmail. I'm also active on Instagram where the address is Sonny Brown Breakdown. Please send me any feedback if you enjoy the episode and let's go to the podcast. Steve Kwan. How are you today? My friend. **Steve Kwan:** I am excellent today. It's a beautiful sunny day over here in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. It's great to finally get a hold of you. We're in very different time zones, so I'm glad we were able to work this out. **Sonny:** Thanks to the magic of the internet now. It's pretty incredible what we're able to do and the magic of zoom. As I was informed last night by one of the teens students, that's why they call them zoomers because they've grown up now in zoom generation. **Steve:** There's going to be a whole world of people where this is how they connect, this is how they do things. It really makes you wonder if the world is actually going to go back to the way that things were. When we look at how things turned out a year from now, we might realize, you know what? Maybe you don't need to hop on a plane and fly across the world just to shake someone's hand and fly back again. Maybe we can just zoom for this stuff. It's funny how no one knew what zoom was a few months ago, but now it's just a household name. Even my aunt and my parents know what zoom is and they use it quite comfortably. **Sonny:** Also apparently some security concerns with the Chinese government, but that's for another talk. That's another podcast. **Steve:** There's also the porn drop-ins, although I think they finally fixed that where just random pornography was showing up in people's meetings. I don't know if that's a bad thing. I would find that quite entertaining if that happened for me, but I can see how, if you're in a board meeting that might not be desirable. **Sonny:** I could see where that could take things a little bit off track, off the rails a wee bit. I want to start just off with just a little bit of your background. You're obviously a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt, you've started your own podcast that's rather successful BJJ Mental Models. Just to lead us in, just a little bit of your background, what brought you to Brazilian jiu-jitsu and then how you ended up deciding that the podcast was the way to go? **Steve:** Sure, Perfect. As you mentioned, I'm a black belt under Don Whitefield from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I've been training for over 12 years now. Both myself and my brother, Matt Kwan are black belts, although he is a black belt under Rob Biernacki from Island top team. We trained with different groups, we've got different paths. He runs his own gym On Guard and Pitt Meadows whereas I don't, I'm a hobbyist. Jiu-jitsu for me has always been just a casual hobby. I'm not a competitor, it's not a thing that interests me, which is interesting because for my brother, that is very much what he's interested in. He is a full-time jiu-jitsu professional, both in terms of competing and also in terms of running his own gym. We've had very different approaches to the way we train. For me as a hobbyist, I can commit maybe a few hours a week to training. My goal is not to be the best in the world. My goal is to get as good as I can reasonably be given the time I can invest to stay in shape, to meet people, to learn, to think outside of the box, to learn new ways of thinking and also just to network and meet interesting people that I wouldn't otherwise meet. Whereas for my brother, this is also his day job so very different experience from myself but what we've found over the years is despite the fact that we have these very different paths in jiu-jitsu, we came away with this, ultimately coming back to the same way of thinking. That is that it's not so much about just grinding and putting more time on the mats. It's about being efficient and coming up with ways to accelerate your learning, your retention and to get the most out of your training that you possibly can. For my brother as a competitor, his goal is to use any advantage he can to be better than he is and to improve. One of the best tools to do that is to look at ways to accelerate the learning and be more efficient on the mat. For myself, my goal is to be able to hang with these guys who do this full-time. I can commit maybe two or three hours a week. There are people out there who train eight hours a day, it's going to be very hard for me to close the skill gap with them. For me, it's all about getting as much out of those two to three hours that I can commit as possible. What I actually found is I take the lessons that I've learned in my day job, mostly centering around learning techniques and decision-making tools such as mental models and applying them to jiu-jitsu. After talking to my brother for a long time, we realized, you know what? We converged independently on these two different paths and maybe there's a way that we can put together a nomenclature and a thinking [model for how you can learn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) effectively at jiu-jitsu, that would benefit everybody. At some point, after talking about this a lot, we decided, you know what? We should just throw a microphone in front of us and maybe from there, we'll be able to provide this information in a model and in a structure that is useful to other people out in the world. We started doing that back in the beginning of 2019. At the time we knew nothing at all about podcasting or how it was done. We thought it would be as simple as you just plug a crappy mic into your computer and you sit around and you just shoot the-- that's all you do, but it turns out it's actually a much bigger, more complicated job than that as you know and it has quickly ballooned up into a much larger initiative. At this point, BJJ Mental Models, as you mentioned, has grown from this small podcast to a much larger framework and educational structure that we provide to grapplers all over the world. The podcast is the hallmark of what we do, that's where we're most known, but that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of educational material that we provide. That's been a labor of love for Matt and I for a long time growing into a much larger commitments and of course, as you mentioned, the audience base has grown a lot too and we're happy to see the size of that growth to the point where-- I get told that we're one of the better resources out there when it comes to podcasting. The reason I like podcasting as a medium is because it forces you to take away a lot of the crutches that people often rely on when they're [teaching something as kinetic as Brazilian jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/). I think the thing is a lot of instructors, they just roll up and they show a technique and they say, "See, look what I did, do that." They think that's the end of their commitment. If someone does something wrong, they pointed out and that's it. It's not a very intelligent approach. It's very monkey see, monkey do in terms of the way that you teach. A lot of online grappling instructionals basically follow the same pattern where you get to watch some high-level black belt do some cool stuff, but there's a lot of talk about what they're doing, but maybe not a lot of talk about why they're doing it or how they're doing it. The benefit to podcasting is by stripping out that visual element, we can only use our words and our ideas. That means that we have to really think about how we're going to frame and explain things to our audience because you don't have that visual element. I found that by putting that restriction on us, it forces us to think and explain in a much more conceptual level so that's why we like doing podcasting as opposed to other mediums. Does that answer your question? **Sonny:** Yes, definitely. I remember I think when you first started out, it was just a website with some articles, like a database on it with a few different mental models as articles just to begin with. I'm wondering what exactly is your day job that turned you on to the idea of mental models on-- what are some of your favorite mental models to use as an example and what are they? **Steve:** Sure. I work at a software company in Vancouver called Broadband TV. It's a dominant player in the YouTube space. One of the biggest tech startups in the area. I've been with the company for a long time, about seven years and I've had the privilege of watching it grow from something small to something very large. My role right there, I have several hats, but basically, I have a bunch of leadership roles that involve process, operations and just efficiency across the board. My job is to take this big beast of a company and figure out ways that we can constantly streamline and make more efficient. A big part of efficiency is making the right decision at the right time. Now, my background, I have dual degrees in software engineering and I've been doing this for about 20 years. Really part of what I do is I help big tech companies especially be more efficient in their operations. When you're talking about efficiency, you're talking about doing things faster, doing things leaner, making better decisions quicker. So key when you've got millions of dollars on the line in single transactions, It's very, very important to be very effective and efficient at everything you do. jiu-jitsu is really a microcosm of that. You've got a very small window of time to make an effective decision when you're grappling, and if you screw up that decision, the results of your mistake are going to be very immediate and very measurable, which is one of the things I love about jiu-jitsu. If you are a desk worker, you might not get the feedback you need to improve for years. If you do something wrong, there's no guarantee that your manager is going to come by and confront you and tell you, hey, here's what you should have done. In fact, if your manager is not a particularly strong manager, you may never find out that you made a mistake and you may live the rest of your life thinking that you're doing things optimally and never learned that you did things wrong. Whereas with jiu-jitsu, if I do something wrong, I will find out in half a second. \[laughs\] I do not require a big, long process. One of the lovely things about jiu-jitsu, is that a very small scale, you can try things and get immediate feedback in a way that you're just not going to see out there in the real world. You can actually take a lot of those [models that you use in jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bruce-hoyer-flipped-classroom-model-jiu-jitsu/) and scale them up to much bigger problems. The stuff that I do on the job is fundamentally from the way I make decisions, not that different from what happens when I'm actually grappling. The only difference is I'm not choking somebody, but some of the concepts are the same. Scaling it back down, a lot of the decisions I use on the job, the tools that I use on the job are very similar to the way that I make decisions when I'm grappling. One of the those ways of thinking is something called mental models, which is the inspiration of the podcast. I first became aware of this learning tool from Charlie Munger, he's Warren Buffett's business partner, one of the most famous investors in the world. He famously talked about how you need to have a latticework of mental models in your head that help you make decisions. That kickstarted this whole cottage industry of mental models, which basically is where people think about how to think. The idea of what a mental model is, is you look for a piece of knowledge out there in the world or a pattern in the world, something that is a general rule of thumb or heuristic that you can use to make quick decisions relatively fast, and also quality decisions, not just quick, but also quality. In some cases, these might be absolute 100% true things. Gravity, for example, is a mental model. You can prove that with physics, it is 100% true all the time. Some other mental models, and actually, a lot of the more useful ones do not work that way. Of course, one that a lot of people have heard about is the 80-20 rule, also known as the Pareto principle, which basically states that if you take a whole group, a whole set of decisions or of entities, you'll often find that 80% of the results come from 20% of the set. Where this often emerges in the real world is if you're running a business and you want to talk about how to be more efficient, figure out which of your customers are making the most money. What you often find is that 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers. You've got this whole long tail of customers that you're probably spending a lot of time and money serving and they're actually not making you any money. That raises business questions about, hey, do I need to focus more on these big ticket customers and try to get more of those customers and not waste my time on these low value customers? Interestingly, as an example, you can take that same approach in jiu-jitsu. When you get to brown belt, black belt, a big part of the game is saying, okay, I technically know maybe 200 different techniques, but if I'm being honest with myself, the results that I'm getting are coming from a very, very small handful of techniques. How can I refine a game plan and tie those things together and start funneling into the moves that I'm good at, the positions that I'm good at and not worrying so much about the superfluous stuff that I never use?" In judo, for example, they have a whole concept for this, they call it your Tokui waza, which is basically your signature move. It's like how in pro wrestling, all of the pro wrestlers have that one finishing move that always ends the fight. In the real world, Judo works that, too, Most Judoka have two, maybe three really killer throws that you're good at. It's all about having a bunch of different entries to get you into that throw. In jiu-jitsu, you see a very similar thing. You have people who are famously good at taking the back or famously good at playing the mouse and they're always trying to funnel back into a small series of things. High level grappling is not always about knowing more moves, it's actually about narrowing your focus to be the best in class at a particular style and a particular type of game-plan. There's an example at a high level of what a mental model is and why this is useful in the world but it also is useful in jiu-jitsu as well. **Sonny:** I think people can see then the benefit of that, it's really just a way of framing different problems that you might come across as a way to help give you a guide to solve them. **Steve:** Exactly. It's a way of organizing your thoughts so that if you see the same pattern over and over again, instead of having to try to solve that problem repeatedly every time, you can allocate a little portion of your brain that says, oh, maybe this is a mental model, a rule that generally applies. If I see this circumstance, then I can just say to myself, aha, I know how I can probably solve this problem because I've seen something it before. There's a lot of such rules in jiu-jitsu. Probably one of the most well known ones that I work with is the theory of alignment, which is the way that Rob Biernacki and the Island Top Team guys describe basically all of jiu-jitsu. If you've watched Rob's instructionals with Stephan Kesting or if you've signed up to his online academy, then you've heard him speak about this. Basically, it's a framework for understanding almost everything. Once you learn to think in that manner, then you can look at new techniques, and you can assess really quickly, okay, how can I make this tighter? Where are the weak points in this technique? Is it fundamentally sound? Is it going to work for me? It gives you a shared language and a shared way of thinking that you can just apply across the board. Learning to think in mental models is always one of the most efficient ways to advance quickly in any new craft or any new endeavor. One of the beautiful things about mental models is you often find that the learnings from one area of your life, you can start to see patterns in other areas of your life that you might not have expected. **Sonny:** Great. On that topic of alignment, I actually did speak to Rory, one of Rob's students and he went over that and gave us a good overview of that side of things. In terms of then using these models to learn faster, what would you say would be some of the drawbacks with the current standard style of [teaching and learning that we see commonly in jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/), that could be improved upon? **Steve:** It's maybe hard to give a universal blanket answer there because every instructor is different and every instructional product you can buy is different. I don't want to make a blanket statement about how the whole world is doing this or that. Generally speaking, at least when I was growing up in jiu-jitsu, and when you are as well it used to be the case that if you went to buy an instructional DVD, it was usually just 100 random techniques. There was really no unifying theme behind all of them, there was no explanation as to how these tie together into a framework. In fact, a lot of the time, it felt like the instructor didn't even want to necessarily teach you how to be better. They wanted to just give you a random grab bag of cool stuff that you've never seen before. It used to be the case that you'd see some World Champion put out a DVD and they'd be talking about, how to do flying Omoplatas and stuff that has no real fundamental use but it's more about-- it felt like massaging the instructors ego. I would argue that a lot of seminars are structured this way, where you go to a seminar, and you're there for maybe two hours, and the instructor just gives you 12 random techniques, and mostly, they're exotic and not particularly useful. Whereas some of the best seminars I've been to are just discussions of very basic things, but in a very, very specific level of detail that you might not have thought of before. I've been to seminars. The last one I did, for example, with Rob Biernacki, it was I think over two hours. He did one technique. He did the cow trailer ankle lock. That was it. He talked about that for two and a half hours. It was not boring or repetitive at all but it was such a deep dive into that move that you get a lot more value than if you just shown a whole bunch of weird things left and right. I do think that as an industry, the quality of instruction has gotten better. For me, the first time I really noticed a turning point here was Ryan Hall. He was the first guy that I saw who didn't just show moves, but talked about concepts and principles. Of course, now we've got the Danaher team, we've got Rob, of course, and I think most instructors take a much more systematized approach to how they want to teach their students. I think, though, a lot of instructors still make the mistake of coming into class and being like, "We got three moves today. 1, 2, 3, we're done." They don't really talk about how they fit them into a framework. The way that I like to teach personally and I do not claim that this is the best way is I like to tie them back to mental models. For example, rather than teaching a one and a half hour class and talking about all of the different ways that you can do an X pass, what I might do is come in today and say, let's not even worry about the techniques. Let's talk about one particular mental model. Let's talk about, for example the elbow-knee connection, you've probably heard of people described this. Basically, the idea that as a general rule, you don't want to leave a giant gap between your elbow and your knee because it exposes your stomach area. It lets people cut your body in half. It lets people grab and pull on your arms and your legs more strongly. Generally, if you stay more compact, it's going to make it harder for people to control you and harder for people to sweep you or pass you. Rather than going into all of these different variants of the move, what I like to do is create a mental model sandwich where I'll start the class talking about here's how this elbow-knee connection works. Then I'll show maybe two or three examples of how that manifests in practice, like here's how this works when you're trying to recover guard from side control or here's how this works when you're trying to do a knee cut pass. Then at the end of class of class, I'll sandwich that back up and tie that back to the original concept to say, okay, we covered these three things today, here's how this all changed back into this one big mental model and you can forget about the techniques we talked about today. Those don't really matter so much, but what matters is that you understand at almost all times, you want to keep your elbow and your knee gap close together, keep that tight. If you take one thing away from this, I don't care if you remember the 12 steps to how to do a knee cut pass but what I care about is don't leave that gap exposed. If I can get that into my student's head, then that is going to reap benefits to them throughout their entire journey whereas, if I teach them a knee cut pass and it just so happens that they don't like the knee cut pass or they're not good at it, that might prove to be a useless experience to them. My goal is to always give them thinking tools because much like investing, rather than just giving them one thing, I'm giving them something that is going to compound over time and help expand their knowledge in unexpected and novel ways over time. **Sonny:** I really like that way of looking at as an investment with the giving them the mental model over the technique. Also in terms of seminars, I've noticed the same thing, the best seminars I've been to, we'll spend just the whole time, just looking at one area or in a bunch of different things around that area or that single move and then even if you forget one thing that they've shown, you've still likely retained enough from that particular move or area that you can still replicate it effectively. Following onto Ryan Hall and especially probably his open elbow DVD, when we're talking knee-elbow connection, his open elbow DVD, now when I watch it is one of the most important things that I've ever seen. Wow, this makes so much sense when I look at it but back in the day, I remember when I watched it, I was thinking, where are the moves here? Show me some more flash and possess. Part of that is a reflection of my own journey and my own level of where I'm at and what I'm looking for but I'm wondering what you would think is the best way then to actually make that connection for people earlier on where they can see those benefits earlier on because a lot of just want to see moves. **Steve:** The reality is when you are a white belt especially, you don't know the most effective way to start your journey. Additionally, we're attracted to flashy, cool, sexy things. Everyone goes through a phase where they want to do berimbolos and flying armbars and stuff. Most people eventually grow to that phase. They may still use those techniques, but it becomes a less of a priority and less of a pillar of the game. I know a lot of white belts and blue belts where the first thing they'll try and do is flying armbar every time. Then eventually, they'll come to the point where they realize that doesn't work and you train them out of them. The way that I like to really drive this home to my students in my class is basically by just being a total nuisance. What I'll do, if the message that I'm trying to communicate for the day is elbow-knee connection, what I will do is just repeatedly do that to them while I'm sparring. If I'm training with a white belt and I want to make sure that the message really stuck, I'll maybe let them pass my guard or try to pass my guard and I'll just keep an elbow-knee connection and just, they can't do it and I'll just explain, this is an elbow-knee connection. The reason you can't pass is because I'm keeping this gap closed. Then when I get on top, I'll knee cut them and I'll say, so that was the elbow-knee connection. That's why that works and I'll just over and over and over again, drive home what I did and how I did it. I think that, again, it all comes down to immediacy of feedback and to me, nothing is more helpful than getting that feedback right while it's happening. The reality is you often don't get that experience when you're sparring because way too many people try to turn on the gym training time into the Mundials. They're there to win and hey that's fun and all, but at the end of the day, that doesn't really improve everyone's learning to the extent that it would, if you use that as a platform for learning. As the senior ranking guy in the class, when I'm sparring-- granted, if I'm sparring with a brown belt or a black belt, I'm probably just trying to stay alive but if I'm sparring with a white belt or a blue belt, I will continually talk to the person and give them feedback as we're going and say, so by they way I've dragged them, I'll say right away, that happened because your arm was not tucked in tight. You need to keep that elbow-knee connection, just constantly reinforce it. That way, to your point about the Ryan Hall DVD, yes, you might not remember all of the details, all of the different variants of the techniques that he showed but if you take away that one core message that is a foundational item and everything else builds on top of it, that's really all you need because then you can freestyle the rest. If you have a solid understanding of the fundamental movements and mechanical principles of jiu-jitsu, you actually don't need to remember all of the steps to do an armbar, it just falls into place because the fundamental movements. That's what I try to teach is not specific variants of moves, but make sure people understand these fundamental movements that power, everything else that we do. **Sonny:** That's a good way of looking at things. You've also highlighted there, the importance of feedback in helping people learn and helping students get that feedback and go through the process of failing and understanding themselves, why something doesn't work to make what does work stick with them. One of the things that I've been thinking about is just ways to help increase that feedback across all the students because obviously as you mentioned there, you're the one giving the feedback but if it's just the instructor giving that feedback, then they're obviously limited by how many people they can get around to per class. What are some of the ways you think that we could possibly increase the amount of feedback given between students? **Steve:** This ties into one of my favorite new areas of evangelism within jiu-jitsu. That is that we need to change the culture. To your point, if you're the ranking black belt, you can't provide that level of standard and care to every single one of your students or maybe you can when you're small, but when the gym starts to grow, it just becomes less feasible. You need to aggressively focus on managing and building the culture that you want to see. That means teaching your lieutenants and the other black belts, brown belts, purple belts, that this is the effective way to learn and making sure that they then do that to their students, to the students as well, when you're not there and they propagate that learning down. Basically, you need to not just try to be the only person who's doing the right thing, but you need to try to ingrain these habits into the people around you such that they then are able to propagate that knowledge down in your absence. Basically it's like, if you're trying to build a company, the CEO can't make every single decision and a big part of growing a company is-- and one of the growing pains that every company gets to is at some point, there's going to be an internal revolution and they basically tell the CEO, you've got to delegate a little bit more. You've got to be more hands off and let us do the job. In jiu-jitsu, you tend not to have that discussion with your gym. I don't know exactly why. I think because there's unfortunately a little bit of black [belt worship that we see in jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/), but ultimately what the instructor needs to do is be willing to push down more control and more best practices to their second in commands and their lieutenants so that they then can share that knowledge with everybody else at the gym. **Sonny:** That makes a lot of sense to be able to foster that culture within the gym, with point within a company. One of my-- not favorite sayings, but a saying I do like to refer to when talking about cultures is from someone else. I can't remember exactly who it was, but it's the idea that culture eats policy for breakfast, which is, we might be able to then set a policy, hey, everyone do give feedback and if you're a blue belt, make sure you pick a white belt and help them out but then the actual culture that's been already built within that gym is just going to overrule whatever policy that you try and set to make a change. **Steve:** Exactly. **Sonny:** What would you think would be the best way to build that culture or to develop that culture when for most people something's already going to be in place? **Steve:** To your points, to tie into what you said there, as you know, culture is not what you say you're going to do, it's what you're actually going to do. You can put together a code of conduct and say that our gym does not tolerate X, Y, Z, but if your gym actually lets things slip through the cracks and maybe there's some bad behavior and you cover up for one of the instructors or something, that speaks much more to your culture than anything that you stapled up to the wall. It's all about leading by example and then not just that, but also telling the people at your gym that you want them to also foster this example but the best thing that you can do as is the case-- Leadership is not about telling people what to do. It's about doing the right thing, such that it inspires other people to follow in your lead. As an instructor, one of the best things that you can do is be a pillar of your community to share these best practices that you want to share, to share this positive message and a lot of that could mean going out and engaging the community, going beyond your gym. Part of the reason why we do the podcast is because we wanted to take a stand on thinking intellectually about jiu-jitsu. Everyone likes to think that jiu-jitsu was the thinking man's martial art. That's true to some extent, but let's actually do some real deep thinking about it then, let's have that conversation. The more people who come out there and take a stand and share the knowledge that they've got, the more that we see these examples in our community that people are going to want to follow. I always encourage people, if you've got good ideas, share them openly and freely, don't buy into this whole secret knowledge thing where you don't share anything outside of your gym. All of the best instructors in the world now, they understand that free sharing of knowledge is foundational to raising the tide for all of us. John Danaher, for example, the amount of knowledge that that guy and his crews share is ridiculous. They don't by any means appear to be particularly worried about people stealing their techniques. They are willing to share this stuff and it reaps benefits for everybody including them. I think that if you want to encourage that attitude, the best thing to do is to be that leader yourself and show people how it should be done and encourage them to follow that path as well. **Sonny:** I was actually reading a discussion online about the idea of creonite the other day. I was thinking that hey, I might take things one step further now and if someone watches an instructional from another instructor, maybe that can be considered then that they are a creonite because there's been such a big change in how things are done that especially with BJJ fanatics, pushing instruction was very hard that I'm sure everyone's seen one of their ads from somewhere. It seems much more acceptable that you're going to be buying instructionals and learning from someone else at home that it's changing the culture in a way. How do you think those instructionals and all these elements, people are going home, listening to podcasts and watching these instructionals, how can these influence the culture from a bottom-up perspective? **Steve:** I think just their sheer existence does in a lot of ways. Even beyond instructionals, I think the stance on social media that you see people like Danaher and his crew, even like Stephan Kesting and all of these guys where they freely sharing this information, sets a very positive example for the rest of the community. I think you could argue that it has made a big difference. I can't speak to everywhere in the world, but here in Vancouver, generally speaking, the Vancouver community is very open. Cross-training is not just permitted, it is encouraged. Most gyms, they will freely let you swing by and just train and hang out. The free sharing of knowledge and the building of the community is key for everyone. There are maybe one or two gyms in Vancouver that are more isolated on an Island where they still adopt that approach of like, these are our walls and you will stay within the gym and you will not train elsewhere and lo and behold, those are usually not the gyms that are cleaning up on the competition scene. I worry that that approach over time leads you very much down the road that a lot of these traditional martial arts have gone to where, because they're not sharing their ideas and ultimately not getting feedback about whether their ideas even work, over time those arts get diluted to the point where they don't even work anymore. My brother, for example, on the podcast has repeatedly criticized GB's continent program because they're basically conducting [competitions only for their own team](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/), but by doing that, it makes the art a little bit more incestual. You're only training with your own guys. You're not being exposed to external ideas anymore. To some extent, if you really close the borders in that manner, then you don't have that constant external pressure from outside schools that's forcing you to be better. I worry that if people all segment off and you're not allowed to train with anyone else, then we're going to wind up one of these other martial arts where all you're doing is katas and it doesn't even matter if it works anymore whereas one of the beautiful things about jiu-jitsu is that it's very scientific and it's very, very, battle-tested. It's a very easy to prove that jiu-jitsu works. I worry that if you're not constantly going out there and exposing your jiu-jitsu and facing new challenges, you're not getting that feedback in terms of how to improve. I definitely do think that the leaders in our community have started openly sharing their knowledge. That has very much created a positive top-down message that other gyms then picked up on. **Sonny:** That's very interesting that you would highlight the people staying more traditional as being a way to dilute the art into other traditional martial arts when I think they would probably see it as people changing the way things have always been done as the road to diluting the art and going into traditional mindset. How would you square it off with someone who was taking that point of view that, hey, any change is going to be a negative as it's taking us away from what made jiu-jitsu to get where it is? **Steve:** You're basically talking about the appeal to purity, where someone says, our interest is in adhering to the pure version of the art as it was originally intended and my concern with that approach-- appeals to purity usually don't end very well. It's not a strong argument to take because there isn't necessarily anything valuable about doing things just the way they were always done. That is not necessarily better. The concern usually what those people are talking about is that all from a self-defense standpoint, you're not supposed to be pulling guard. You're not supposed to be doing berimbolos, you're not supposed to be doing spider guard, all of this stuff, waters the art down. To some extent, that can be a valid argument. You could very easily argue that judo's effectiveness over the last 100 years has been reduced due to changes made at the Olympic level where they've stripped out certain types of takedowns and stuff. I think it would be reasonable to say that although judo is still clearly an effective martial art, it definitely has had some of its key tools removed from it. You can make the same argument from jiu-jitsu. A lot of the stuff that we can't do, like knee reaping, for example or the disallowance of heel hooks completely eliminates a whole avenue of the martial art that would make it otherwise effective. I think those are very valid concerns, but I don't think the right answer is to do things the way that they had always been done. I think if you were to build a time machine and go back and see what Hélio was doing in the early 20th century and compare that to what the guys are doing now, I think it would be pretty clear that there has been exponential improvement. Even looking back 10, 15 years, I think it's pretty clear there's been exponential improvement. I do think that it is worth continuing to guard the rules so that they don't get that diluted but if we're going to be honest, I don't see it. Novel techniques, like berimbolos and stuff, yes, they crop up but usually these are tricks in a lot of cases. A lot of the time, when something new and novel comes up, as soon as people start to understand how it works and how to shut it down, that's when we find out if this is a long-term sustainable thing or really more of a fad. Because the techniques that are worked by obscurity, meaning they only work because the other guy hasn't seen them before, if those things are not fundamentally sound, give it a year or two and those things will just disappear on their own. If it turns out that they are fundamentally sound, they will hang around. I think that again, jiu-jitsu is not perfect from an MMA/self-defense standpoint, but I don't really see this big dilution of quality that the purists would argue we're seeing. I would say that if anything, if you were to go back and build a time machine and sound like Gordon Ryan to go back and fight Hickson in his prime, I don't think Hickson would win. I think the bar has-- and this is the case not in jiu-jitsu, but in every sport, the bar over time goes up over time. That's how advancements work. It's great to treat the past with some degree of reverence and to respect where we came from but that doesn't mean there's value in doing things the same way, just because. **Sonny:** It seems wild to think that even just stating that Gordon Ryan could probably beat Hickson might be a controversial statement for a lot of people that there might be some degree of your-- that's heresy to even suggest that but-- **Steve:** It's just, it's the time. Hickson is one of the greatest, no one is saying he's not, but it's just that, the reality is we have a lot more knowledge of what regular competitors are actually capable of. Hickson only has 11 MMA fights on record. He makes these claims to have 400 fights, but even his own family has disavowed that claim, whereas with modern competitors, we have a much better understanding of what they can do and things like the modern leglock system didn't even exist back then. It's easy to go after someone if there's a massive hole in their knowledge to exploit it. I've been there when my daughter was born I took about a year-and-a-half off of jiu-jitsu and during that time, the leglock scene really exploded. When I came back, I wasn't even that out of shape in the grand scheme of things, but man, there was a period where I remember I was sparring with a blue belt who I outweighed by 40 pounds. This guy was tiny. He tapped me 12 times in five minutes. It was so embarrassing. It was because I'd never seen this entire game. I never thought that this could happen. I never wasn't used to people just diving for my ankles. It took me a good six months to catch up and learn how to shut down that type of game. If there's a hole in your knowledge, it's very much like the Trojan Horse. It doesn't matter how good your fortifications are, if there's one big gaping weakness and someone can exploit it, that's not a knock-on Hickson , it's a knock on the evolution of knowledge over the past 30, 40, 50 years. **Sonny:** It's interesting there that you've described maybe what would be considered that-- describing something that is a step away from a traditional mindset of Jiu-Jitsu thinking. That has actually reinforced one of those great traditional tropes of the smaller person being able to beat the bigger person with the increased level of knowledge that that's actually one of the beautiful things of Jiu-Jitsu that you've encountered. **Steve:** Yes, definitely. It gets harder when you get to the higher levels because when you're training with other black belts, when the skill level is relatively equivalent, then the other variables start to come into play. The reality is, if you are a brown or a black belt, I don't care what the size disadvantage is. You could be fighting like Brock-- not Brock Lesnar because he knows how to fight. \[laughs\] **Steve:** You could be fighting an untrained Brock Lesnar equivalent and I'm very skeptical that they would be able to take on a good brown or a black belt regardless of size. The way that I think of it, is that Jiu-Jitsu really, it's an art, that's all about leverage. The one thing about Jiu-Jitsu that's really fundamentally interesting, the idea is to get leverage from really any position, including the bottom. Now granted leverage will only get you so far. Your force is like a multiple of your strength plus the leverage you have. If you have crazy leverage, but zero strength, anything times zero is still zero. Athleticism does come into play, but at the end of the day, if you're fighting some untrained brute, a very, very simple Jiu-Jitsu technique is enough to work against them if your skill level is high enough. I think we move away from that because there's so much quality grappling now. We see people in the same weight class, just the highest levels and we see that athleticism matters. I think a lot of people forget that you're talking about world-class athletes here. For the average person, if you have sufficient knowledge of how to use leverage, you will be able to handle yourself against pretty much almost anybody. **Sonny:** That's a good point and in keeping them with the idea of the cross-training and instructionals, opening Jiu-Jitsu up to more avenues of exploration, what then is the main filter to make sure that it still remains relevant and applicable to stop the dilution? Is it just the framework of leverage or putting it through some of those mental models? **Steve:** It's all about the ruleset. One of the great concepts that one of our listeners actually wrote in and asked us to codify. We actually have an article on this on our website now is the concept of win conditions. Which is that whenever you're playing any game or any competition, it is very important to know what the criteria are for winning and to reverse engineer from there. Yes, your technique is a major advantage, your athleticism is an advantage, your size is an advantage, but a very common and forgotten advantage is your ability to understand and play to the rules. If you understand how the rules work and you can leverage those, you can beat people in the competition who are technically better than you in every other manner. Famous example is, of course, Mackenzie Dern versus Gabi Garcia who won by what? I think one penalty point. That's a situation where she went in with zero advantages, except better she was able to handle herself under the rules better. There is a great anecdote about this from Tim Ferriss in his book, The 4-Hour Workweek. He opens up the book talking about how he became a martial arts national champion or something. **Sonny:** San Shou it was. **Steve:** Basically, all he did was he looked in the rule book, he found some technicality about how, if you push the other guy out of bounds, three times you win, so that's all he did and he won. He became a national champion with the ugliest, most awful, hideous version of martial arts that you've seen, but what works, works. I think that what that speaks to is the importance of having a ruleset that reflect the reality of Jiu-Jitsu. That's what I think we have to keep sacred, if we want Jiu-Jitsu to remain relevant and applicable for self-defense and for MMA. We need to make sure that we don't do anything to the ruleset that would water it down. Now, I am not a huge fan of the IBJJF as an institution, but I do like the ruleset for the most part. I think that the ruleset, although not perfect, I would make some changes for sure, but I think it very clearly encourages you to play dominant positions and to do Jiu-Jitsu the right way. I think that that ruleset, as long as we can keep a ruleset that doesn't encourage all sorts of weird sporty variants, I think that's all it really matters. I would say that the best thing that we could do is make sure that whatever changes we make at the rules level, trickle down into every other aspect of Jiu-Jitsu. Just make sure that people are always motivated to follow these rules such that they're grappling remains quality. If they were to, for example, change things such a way that-- I would already argue that takedowns are not prioritized enough in Jiu-Jitsu. If they were to make a change where they eliminated the points for takedowns or even if they just set it up so that sweeps got you more points than takedowns, that would be disastrous. The impact would be that there would be a much greater incentive for people to pull guard and we don't want that. That's not to say that guard is necessarily bad. I actually am okay with people taking the bottom position if they know what they're doing, but you always want to encourage from a fight perspective that people take the dominant initiative from the top. That's an example of where like a subtle change could really impact the way that people train. I would say that the one big weakness in the IBJJF is the limitation on heel hooks and leg reaping. There is a massive, massive, fundamental weakness in the art that stems from our inability to do those moves. If you were to put me in control of the IBJJF and asked me to make a few rule changes, the big things I would say is that reaps are legal from purple belt and up. Heel hooks are legal from purple, brown belt and up. That would be the big change I'd make. **Sonny:** I hear you on that. The general fundamentals of the ruleset, I think is great because it's still tight-down, past guard, get the mount or back, go for your submission is still reinforced as one of the key ways to victory in that. One thing I have noticed that seems to be perhaps unique in Jiu-Jitsu and I wonder if you've noticed the same thing is that, it seems to be a sport where a lot of competitors will enter without quite having full understanding of the rules of the sport. **Steve:** Yes, for sure. **Sonny:** I guess, there's that element where that happens because people just think of it more as that fight. It's a fight, I know the rules of the fight, beat the other guy, make him tap, you win. Do you think that there is that battle between that sport side and the fight side or just, "Hey, is submission only the only ruleset that should matter? **Steve:** That's a tricky one. There's something novel about the idea of a submission-only fight. It sounds like you should think, "Holla, a submission is a submission. Once you get that, you win." I've changed my thinking on this. I believe that the IBJJF ruleset now is, from a practicality standpoint superior to a submission-based ruleset for a variety of reasons but the main one being in the real world. If we're talking about what martial arts are actually for. Martial arts are not for cage fights. That's a sport. Martial arts are for self-defense at the end of the day. In the real world, if I get you in a chokehold and I choke you. Then you tap and I let you go; I have no indication that you're not just going to get up and kick my ass again. That's the thing. The reality is, most people, I think, who train Jiu-Jitsu don't want to be violent. If I put you in a twister, let's say it's a self-defense situation. If I get you in a twister somehow, what am I going to do? I'm not going to kill you? Am I going to break your neck? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. I would much rather knee-ride you and hold you there till the cops arrive because martial arts are about de-escalation. At least martial art is supposed to be about de-escalation. Although there is something romantic about getting the sub, I actually think prioritizing positional control is more important, especially for the art that we train. Bring me back though, there was a specific question that you had, and I think I may have deviated a little bit off on it. **Sonny:** Oh, I think I just started with the idea of people not knowing the rules while entering in the competitions. **Steve:** I think I've definitely noticed that too. I would guess that it's probably for a variety of reasons. One being that out of the gate Jiu-Jitsu is a fundamentally complicated martial art to get your head around. A lot of other martial arts or just much less dynamic in terms of the number of things you could possibly do. Jiu-Jitsu, there's a lot of moving pieces. There's a reason they call it human chess. The hardest part I think for Jiu-Jitsu in terms of learning to be good at it, is just tracking your mind where all of your arms and legs are and where your opponent's arms and legs are at any given time. As a result of that, the ruleset is just inherently more complicated than if we were doing kickboxing. There's a lot of things you have to think about. Try to explain to a layperson what like knee reaping is. It's absolutely a bizarre thing when you think about it, "Oh, well, your leg can go this way but not this way." It's incredibly complicated. I think just the nature of the complexity of Jiu-Jitsu, makes the ruleset complex to the point where people fully don't understand it. I would also say that though, for a long job the IBJJF did not do a great job of communicating out what the rules were. It has gotten much, much better. I remember back when I was training, just getting a straight answer on a very simple question was incredibly hard. A lot of the time, even at the highest levels, the refs didn't seem to have a consensus on what the rules were. They would sometimes call something a DQ and sometimes wouldn't. I remember spending months at the blue belt level trying to figure out, "Am I actually allowed to attack like a top side ankle lock?" In fact, I'm still not sure if I can do it. I think there's two sides of it. One is, lack of clarity from our leadership level, from the IBJJF. Another is just the fundamental complexity of the art. I think as a result of that and also the just the romantic nature of this being a "fight", which honestly, it's not, but I know a lot of people like to think it is. Because of that, I think a lot of people just go in there with tunnel vision. They want to get the submission, and they do that to their detriments. Learning to play the rules is so important if you want to actually take this seriously as a competitive sport. **Sonny:** Yes, that was certainly me in blue or purple belt. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I had bad habit of giving up as many points is, as I felt I could while still just searching for the sub. I think that it brings up a good point of the benefit of rules and constraints, placed on a just, I guess, any art to produce something that's more desirable than just a bit of a free for all. I think we see with some sub-only matches; you can see things just being given away that is only being able to work because punches aren't involved and may not be technically good Jiu-Jitsu but it works for that ruleset. With that benefit of constraints and limiting rules in mind, taking it back into the gym, what are some of the best constraints that maybe people can put on themselves to help learn or maybe that you could put on to a class to help students learn Jiu-Jitsu more efficiently? **Steve:** Are you talking about, specifically, in the context because you mentioned strikes? Are you talking specifically about defending from strikes? **Sonny:** Maybe not just defending from strikes, but I know that we can make people work on certain positional sparring, would be one way to put a constraint onto a class or just if you're rolling maybe you're only going for a certain move. Is there other ways that you can think of, just that benefits of constraining your training maybe that's those self-imposed limits? **Steve:** Yes, innovation comes from constraints. An example I always love to give is, we live in this Twitter world now and Twitter is a bizarre thing when you think about it. For the longest time, the defining characteristic for Twitter was you could only send the messages that were 140 characters long. It was constrained by, at the time, the length of a text message. The fact that they quit that constraint on their platform, actually created an entirely new way of communicating. That at the time in the tech world we called it microblogging. The idea being that you're not posting these 800-word essays out there, but you're just sharing a thought. It creates this ongoing stream of consciousness, and it's created a whole new means of communication. Sometimes one of the best practices for innovating is to put constraints around yourself and see what you can do within those constraints. In the case of how that can impact your training, positional sparring is one example, but I would walk the concept back even further. A mental model that we've discussed on our podcast is, training with purpose. Meaning that what most people do is they will go to class, and they will just roll. They don't actually have an action plan for what they want to achieve that day or how they want to get better. I think one of the best things that anyone can do to improve Jiu-Jitsu on a day-by-day basis is before you do any training sessions, think in advance about what your goal is for that day. Like, "What do I want to get better at? What is the area that I want to improve in?" Make a conscious effort do to do that during that class, and then reflect on it afterward. A big part of that is by putting parameters on yourself. This is important because, like it with anything, in Jiu-Jitsu you build habits. Habits are often good, but sometimes they can close your mind to other possibilities. If you only ever do the scissor sweep, and you get to the point where you're so good at doing the scissor sweep, if you decide to introduce something else into your game plan it's going to be hard because your mind doesn't go there right away. It's going to be demoralizing because you suck at it. \[chuckles\] You're going to fall back onto the scissor sweep because you're good at that. If you decide, for example, "You know what? I want to have an awesome hip bump sweep." Before you go to class, you [set a goal to train](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) with purpose. You say to yourself, "I will make this commitment to myself. Whenever I get into that guard position, I will go for the hip bump sweep. I don't care if I think it's a good idea at the time. I don't care if I want to do this scissors sweep. I will do the hip bump sweep." Then after class, you reflect on that. You ask yourself, "Okay, well first of all, did I do what I said I was going to do? Also, what went well? What didn't go well? How can I adapt this? What are the learnings?" Then you take those learnings and you use them to make another commitment for your next class. You say, "Okay, well, the problem with my hip bump was that I was not getting my hips high enough. I commit to my next class; I will raise my hips even higher." You build incremental goals and you take things down so that every single training session has a discrete purpose. Part of that could be positional sparring. If you want to get good at playing guard, you might say, "Today, I'm going to pull guard. Every single time I get so many feet I'm going to pull guard." You know that might not be the best strategy overall, but if you have an area of your knowledge that you want to focus on, that's the best way to do it. **Sonny:** Yes. I think you've highlighted something very important there, is that reflection process, and looking back at what you've actually done. What you've done to work towards, whichever goal, it is you've set. Is there a formalized way of reflection that you would recommend people in Jiu-Jitsu practice? **Steve:** Yes. I don't think you need to get totally crazy and have some big official process. The way that I describe it, stemming from my day job, there's a concept called Kaizen, which is Japanese for continuous improvements. Basically, it is a strategy that really became famous back and I want to say that's the '60s when Toyota revolutionized the way the cars were built. They went from being basically nobody to just completely decimating the American car market to the point where it still hasn't recovered. They did this through a variety of management practices, one of which was Kaizen. The idea is that regardless of what happens, it's not necessarily about whether you won or lost, it's about getting better. You set small discrete goals for small-time blocks like I've just described. Where like, " Hey. Today, here's my goal." You try it, and then you measure it at the end of the day. "Hey, did I succeed? Did I fail? What are the learnings for what worked well and what didn't?" Then you apply that next time. It's not so much about whether you won or lost or about whether you got what you wanted or didn't, the goal is not on a daily basis to win or lose, the goal is to learn and improve. I think the thing that a lot of people do as a mistake is, they go into class and they measure the success or failure of that day based on how many taps they got or who they beat up, or whether they got beat up. I know it's very tempting to walk into class and be like, "Yes, I tapped five people today and nobody tapped me. I did good." Did you really? If you rolled with a bunch of white belts who are like on their first day, and you tapped them all, did that actually improve you in any meaningful way? It might have made you worse. Really, the goal should not be, "Did I succeed, or did I fail?" It should be, "Did I learn, and did I improve?" Some of the best days I've had are days when I walked onto the mass and I just got my ass kicked, but man I learned a lot. \[laughs\] Your focus should be for the long-term, not winning the daily battle of, did I get the tap in the gym, it doesn't matter. It should be, "Am I taking the steps up the staircase every day to improve myself? So that two years from now, when I look back at where I was I'll be like, "Man, that guy sucked." That's what you want to be doing. **Sonny:** Yes. I think it's that, I want to beat the person who I was yesterday rather than getting the taps today. **Steve:** Exactly. **Sonny:** Although you still have to enjoy those little victories. You still have to enjoy the taps I think because that can give you the motivation to turn up the next day. **Steve:** Oh, yes. **Sonny:** I guess for the long-term, it's more important to enjoy the learning process. **Steve:** Yes, victory is always enjoyable, it feeds the ego. I'm not saying don't care. Obviously, you need to care to some extent, but it is important to separate your ego and your sense of self-worth from, whether you got the tap or not. This applies right up to competition. There are many, many world-class athletes who were-- they look like absolute killers until they weren't. Ronda Rousey comes to mind; Mike Tyson comes to mind. They look unbeatable until they weren't, and then they never got back on the horse. Then you've got guys like George St-Pierre, I'm a Canadian, I'm very biased, who suffered a humiliating loss, the scale of which most of us will never be able to understand. He got beat up by a reality show contestant while the whole world was watching. He got back on the horse and he went on to have one of the greatest championship runs of all time. You have to make sure, as my brother often says, "Your ego is not your amigo." The reason you're training is to feed your ego. You're setting up a barrier that will prevent you from actually growing. They say that martial art kills the ego. I don't know if that's entirely true, but I know that that should be one of your goals if nothing else. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear that. Well, the saying that we have is, "Leave your ego at the door when you step onto the mats." I always do wonder, would that really result in everyone having an existential crisis, as I walk through the doors of the gym? \[laughter\] **Sonny:** On GSP, I think he's undoubtedly the goal of MMA, especially by never having gone back and had those losses that a lot of the other people in the contention for that discussion have had themselves. **Steve:** The thing about GSP is that, yes, there were guys who had longer title reigns. Yes, there were guys who finished more fights, but there are a lot less question marks surrounding GSP. Guy never failed a drug test, Guy was consistent across the board, the only two losses the Guy ever had, he avenged in dominant version. The only possible question mark you could put around the Guy was that you could argue that-- it's very clear, he got lucky in the decision on that Johny Hendricks fight. There were a lot of variables around that. Johnny Hendricks, I don't want to lay any accusations, but there were some significant rule changes at the UFC and he was never the same after that. With GSP many years back, he walked off the couch, came back, and worked the ass, and got another title. He's been very consistent. The only person I think you could even make a comparable case for at this point is Amanda Nunes, in terms of her performance. I think everyone else just has questions like Demetrious Johnson. Amazing, amazing athlete, but the quality of competition wasn't there. John Jones, his biggest enemy is himself. He has all of the potential to be the greatest of all time, but he has prevented himself from achieving that. Anderson Silva, amazing guy, but a lot of failed drug tests. Once you control for those variables, you're left with very few pure people in Jiu-Jitsu who you can really say are up there in the gold discussion, and GSP is definitely one of them. **Sonny:** Yes. For him, he's my, the kind of role model for martial arts. As it stands, I'm happy that he doesn't have those questions around him because if he just keep it like he is, I'm quite happy. **Steve:** Yes. That's one of the things about GSP. Yes, he is not just a dominant athlete, but in a lot of ways, he's an aspirational figure. No one looks at Jon Jones and says, "Man, I want to be like that guy." Even Anderson Silva, I don't know, many people who look at him and look at him as a pinnacle of the type of person they would want to be. Whereas GSP also has the aura of being the paradigm, the pinnacle of what a martial artist should be. Granted, a lot of that is probably marketing and manufacturing his image that way, but there's no arguing that a lot of his popularity comes from the fact that people can project into him as being an example of the best of us. **Sonny:** Yes. Is it the myth or is it the man? At this stage, I'm happy that the myth, at least, for GSP appears to match up with the man. I can use him still as that aspirational idea of a martial artist. **Steve:** Yes, definitely. **Sonny:** Steve, an hour has flown by, and it's been a wonderful conversation. I'm wondering maybe if we can just loop it back to the start with your podcast, BJJ Mental Models, and maybe give people an idea of your favorite episode that they could jump in on. I know you guys are up to 70, you're in the '70s now or maybe? **Steve:** I think as of this time, we just put out 77 today. Not today, sorry, on Monday. **Sonny:** Yes. There's a lot to choose from. What would be your favorite episode and the things that it covered that would be good to take a look at? **Steve:** Sure. If I were to recommend to our listeners where to get started, In terms of the mechanics of Jiu-Jitsu, I think the most important thing to understand is, what we mean when we talk about alignments. How all of the body parts fit together. How leverage works. How to deny your opponent that leverage. We talked about this on the very first episode that we did because we thought that was the most important thing to talk about. Problem is, when we did Episode 1, we had no idea how to podcast. I've gone back, and I've tried to like sweeten the audio and make it sound better, but it's pretty clear that these are just too unprepared morons sitting around and talking about Jiu-Jitsu. When we got to Episode 50, with everything that we learned, we decided to reapproach that episode so that if we wanted to direct people to this conversation, we had a better version of it. We brought [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/playful-pedagogy-cognition-concepts-gamification-of-micro-battles-for-bjj-with-rob-biernacki/) onto the podcast because he's the guy who popularized that model. My recommendation for anyone who would be interested in a Coles Notes version of what we do and how we do, it would be to take a look at Episode 50 as their starting point. **Sonny:** Beautiful, beautiful. That seems like a good place to wrap things up. Steve, what's the best way, then if people want to get in touch with you, they've got more questions for you, how should they go about doing that? **Steve:** Sure. Thanks. Obviously, our website is the jumping point to everything we do, [bjjmentalmodels.com](http://www.bjjmentalmodels.com), very easy to find. Of course, you can also find the show on any pod culture that you've got. It's also on YouTube, on Spotify. Generally, very easy to find, just Google it. Of course, you can go to our website and from there it links out to all of this other stuff. If you want to get in touch with me, we love getting people's questions. We do our best to answer every single one. We have a contact form on our website. Of course, if you also look us up on Facebook or on Instagram, shoot us a message, we would be happy to talk to you there. **Sonny:** Beautiful. Steve, thanks so much for your time today. I hope you've enjoyed the discussion, and we could perhaps do another one in the future. **Steve:** Absolutely. I hope this is helpful for people. It was great to finally get a chance to talk to you. Again, if there's something I can leave people with, it's to just try to make every day a learning experience. It doesn't really matter if you won or you lost, but set goals so that every time you train, you get the most out of that training. You have a plan for how you're going to do it, and you reflect on it afterward to figure out how you can get better for the next time. **Sonny:** Beautiful. Steve, have a wonderful day and thank you again so much. **Steve:** You too. Take care. **Sonny:** Cheers. ![Steve Kwan Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_steve_kwan3-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_steve_kwan3 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Robert Drysdale On The Good, Bad & Beautiful Truth Of BJJ History](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-drysdale-interview-bjj-history/) **Published:** September 12, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Robert Drysdale BJJ History](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/robert_drysdale_bjj_history-1024x576.jpg "Robert Drysdale BJJ History › Sonny Brown")I talk to Robert Drysdale, ADCC Champion, Mundials Champion and has also coached many other legends of the sport. Also a History major, he has spent his recent time delving into the history of the sport for a documentary entitled Closed Guard: The Origins of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil that traces the journey of Japanese Judoka travelling to Brazil and the formation of the sport we know today involving tough guys, the [circus, outlaws, gambling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/underground-history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/ "The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon"), marketing & promotion and of course plenty of prize fights along the way. The entire saga makes for a fascinating tale that leaves us with the question of where the good and bad of the story rests between the truth and the myth. After all was it Mitsuyo Maeda that made the legend of Carlos Gracie or Carlos Gracie that made the legend of Mitsuyo Maeda? ## Listen TO ROBERT DRYSDALE: ### Listen to the Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-good-bad-beautiful-truth-in-the-origins-of/id1476963733?i=1000491051289 "Apple Podcasts") - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0K4kaOSMFSc3F3bIb29B5c?si=00ecf43580d34ae3 "Spotify") ## Key Topics ### Re-thinking “linear” history Drysdale argues that most timelines—Maeda → Carlos → Hélio—ignore the messy, branching way combat sports evolve. He likens real history to a “bushy” shrub, influenced by immigration, circus circuits and politics, and recalls realising he “knew close to nothing about the history of BJJ” before diving into archival newspapers and out-of-print volumes such as Roberto Pedreira’s *Choque*. ### Catch wrestling, judo and cultural exchange Far from being a purely Japanese transplant, early Brazilian grappling soaked up techniques and terminology from catch wrestlers and travelling strongmen. Drysdale points to Portuguese loan-words like *arm lock* and *Americana* as “linguistic fossils” that judo alone cannot explain, and notes that even Hélio Gracie cross-trained with Luta Livre team. ### Myth-making and the Gracie marketing machine We explore how unbeatable records and carefully chosen rule-sets fuelled the Gracie brand. Drysdale shows how claims of “400-0” wins created a dogma that still sparks heated debate, illustrating how effective storytelling can outrun evidence, and why separating legend from fact strengthens, rather than weakens, the art’s credibility. ### George Gracie - the rebel innovator George, the family’s first star, mixed freely with Japanese judoka and catch wrestlers, staged what may be the first modern Vale Tudo bout and even confessed publicly that many early contests were works. His refusal to curate a spotless legacy, he admitted some fights were “fake” while praising rival brother Hélio, helped erase him from the official narrative. ### Nationalism, politics and rule-set rebellion 1930s Brazil saw Japanese immigrants, nationalist press and military interest collide. Drysdale recounts how a brass-knuckle assault case almost derailed the Gracies’ bid to teach the navy, only to be overturned by a presidential pardon, and how disagreements over judo rules prompted Brazilians to “put their foots down” and shape a distinct style. ## Key Takeaways - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu history is better understood as a branching, contested story than a simple linear lineage. - Myth-making and marketing helped shape the public story of BJJ, but separating legend from evidence can make the history more interesting rather than less. - Catch wrestling, judo, immigration, nationalism and Brazilian culture all influenced the development of the art. - Historical claims are strongest when they are tested against primary sources rather than repeated tradition. ## Resources #### Quotes - “History is not linear. It’s bushy.” - “You can’t correct history without talking about what’s wrong about it.” - “We crave mythology; it’s a glitch in human psyche.” - “The real story is much better than the one we had heard.” - “We have Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because they put their foots down and disagreed with the Japanese on the rule set.” #### Links - [**Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma)**](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm "Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma)") - **[Robert Drysdale Instagram](https://instagram.com/robertdrysdalejj)** - **[Closed Guard film site](https://closedguardfilm.com)** ## Robert Drysdale Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Robert Drysdale. How are you today, mate? **Robert Drysdale:** I'm doing great, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for inviting me to be on the podcast, and looking forward to catching up. **Sonny:** My pleasure. Your competitive career has been illustrious, known for a long time. Today, we're going to really get into the history of the actual sport that you do yourself and that we all do in the history of Brazilian jiu-jitsu because you've started producing a documentary called *Closed Guard* on the history of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I'm wondering what made you start looking into the history of Brazilian jiu-jitsu? What was the impetus to actually think what's the roots of this sport that we do? **Robert:** It's interesting because my other passion outside of jiu-jitsu has always been history, I'm a history major as a child. I was obsessed with combat but I never thought I'd be a fighter, I had in my head, I was going to be an archaeologist. When people ask me, "Oh, what are you going to go to college for? I'm like "Oh, archaeology." I had it in my head, that's what I was going to be. I got infected with the jiu-jitsu bug when I was 16 and there was tunnel vision from then onwards. On my free time, I was always reading history books and the humanities in general. I felt very strongly that if BJJ didn't exist, that's probably what I'd be doing for a living, something in that realm. Ironically, I'd never been interested in the history of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. There was a part of me that was a little sceptical and suspicious. If you're more familiar with any historical topic, you know that you can't simplify things into a linear approach to developments. History is not linear, it's bushy. It goes in many directions and it does that, and it's very complex. You can't say, Conde or Maeda, Carlos or Helio, it's too simple to do that. I remember when this happened, I was at the gym. One of my students asked me why did I not have a picture of Carlos or Helio on my wall like a lot of gyms do. It wasn't because I disrespect them or because I don't believe in their role, it's just because I don't know enough about history for me to put anyone's picture on the wall. My reaction, I had two reactions. I put the picture of my structures that people who had taught me over time. I put their pictures on the wall because I know what they did for me. As far as Helio and Carlos I didn't know enough for me to put their pictures on the wall. I don't think you shouldn't just believe something because people tell you to, you should look into it yourself. It did challenge me a little bit because I did realize, I knew close to nothing about the history of BJJ. Right around the time, I remember I had seen a book at a friend's house, Ray Casias in Tennessee. I was just visiting him for a seminar. On the shelf, there was a book called *Choque* by Roberto Pedreira, *The Untold Story of jiu-jitsu in Brazil* was the name of the book. It was a thick volume, it was volume one, there's three of them and they're big volumes. I'm thinking, "Oh, wow. I had no idea something like this existed. Why have I never heard of this?" I started going through it, and I found it was very rich in sources, and it was done very academically. When I'd ask everyone, no one had ever heard of the book, and the few people who had heard of it like, "Oh, man, it was too heavy for me to read." People just didn't enjoy reading it because it didn't read like a novel, it read like a catalog and historical events. It was a heavy read and it was meant to inform people, not really entertain them. I did enjoy the read. I also read a book called *Samurai, The Guardian Samurai*, It was a book in Portuguese and it had a lot of the same sources that *Choque* had. When I started reading these, I was like, "Man, people don't know about this." I started asking friends of mine, people like old-timers, I'm like "Have you heard of this?" and like "No." "Did you know about this?" They're like, "No, never heard of that." They thought I was making it up. I'm like, "They're not making it up, they have primary sources here. These guys aren't crazy, they're professional historians. They know what they're doing." Then later I found more research and I found a PhD dissertation by Jose Tufy Cairus. I think it's called *The Gracie Clan and the Making of Brazilian Nationalism*. I can't remember the exact title. If you Google it, *Gracie Clan, the Making of Brazilian Nationalism*, Jose Tufy Cairus, it'll come up. They've got another article about the same talk, but they're very well-researched, and the story that we're telling, it wasn't completely different from the one we had heard from our instructors, from what was on Wikipedia, and other websites, but it was different. It was different. I became increasingly interested in this story, and I was trying to get people to read these books but people weren't interested. I figured out how can we tell this story in a way where we can bridge the gap between the [martial art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) enthusiasts and this academic work. I figured out the only way we can bridge that gap is through a film. Now, here's the problem, I have zero experience in film. I like watching them. I don't think that counts as experience really. I have this thing in my head where if I want to do something, it doesn't matter what it is. If I get something in my head, I'm going to make it happen. It wasn't an easy process getting involved. I probably drove our production team crazy more times than I can count partially because of my lack of experience and partially because I'm very stubborn. If I want to tell something in a certain way, I put my foot down. If I believe I'm right about something, I can't lose that fight. I wanted to tell something that was unbiased, and I wasn't worried about stepping on eggshells. I wasn't worried about upsetting people. There was zero concern over political correctness, nationalism. There's no partisanship, it's like straight down the middle, that was always my angle. The problem is the narrative is so old that anything that challenges it is immediately seen as hate. By trying to be in the middle, I get accused of being hateful, and envious, and diminishing the role of Brazilians or diminishing the Gracie family, or "Oh, you're just angry because you lost two finals of the Worlds to Roger." Oh my God. My answer is always, "Yes, I'm angry. I'm very angry, but that has nothing to do with the film." They're very different things. They co-exist, and there's no contradiction there but I never wanted to attack anyone. When I'm reading about how Maeda's role was grossly exaggerated, it's not that he didn't do anything but we made him sound like he was this creator of something, and he taught Carlos. When you look at the source and there's none of that. The story that's coming across is a very different one. Most of Maeda's fights were fake. When he moved to Brazil, he's practically retired and becomes more of a diplomat socialite, and a representative of Japanese immigrants in the Amazon. He's less and less interested in fighting. He passes on the torch to his Brazilian students. There were at least six of them that we can verify for sure. Five in the Amazon and then one in Rio, a man who trained with them for a few months but we can verify it, and none of them are Carlos Gracie. Carlos Gracie doesn't appear to the story until much later, and even so, it's a very, very small role. It's clearly exaggerated, whatever relationship he had to Maeda's. The one thing all historians agree on is that it's exaggerated. You're never going to meet historians like, "Oh no, everything Carlos said was true." That guy doesn't exist. The degree to which he exaggerated is what people can disagree on. I didn't feel that that diminished his role. I think because importance is very real but for different reasons, they give themselves credit for it. It's the same for Helio. I think Helio is very important to the story but for different reasons that they give themselves credit for. They didn't revolutionize technique. The Japanese were light years ahead of them. You can't even begin to dispute this. It blows my mind that some people want to argue with me. It was like how can you even begin to argue that? My inbox blows up. Of course, I've been called anti-Gracie and pro-Gracie. I've been called both, which tells me I'm on the right track because when the fundamentalists on both ends of the spectrum are angry at you, it tells me that I'm on the right track, so I take this as positive. Helio was very important for resisting the spread of judo. Judo would have taken over had it not been for-- I believe that. Some historians disagree. They think that Helio's role was very exaggerated. I don't think it's exaggerated. I think he's very important, but not because he revolutionized the technique. He didn't invent guard, he didn't invent leverage. In fact, if you watch him grapple from all accounts, he was very basic. He was very simple. I don't think he really created anything, other that he was the strongman in the face of a movement of resistance towards judo. A movement that almost dies many times, that practically disappears in the '60s and '70s and '80s, makes a comeback in the '90s. I think that without a strong personality like Helio, we'd all be doing judo today, so we owe him thanks. Carlos was a marketing genius. If Carlos Gracie had a Twitter account, he'd have 20 million followers today. He understood PR very, very shrewdly, very cunning man for his time. You've got to give him credit for that. Did he reinvent martial arts? No, he was teaching judo because that's what he was taught. What did Helio teach? He taught judo. It was just simplified modified judo. It was ground-oriented judo. I'll give you an example. When you talk to Japanese that witnessed the evolution of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and the spread of it around the world, when they first start seeing Brazilians, they were surprised Brazilians were calling it jiu-jitsu because jiu-jitsu to them was a very archaic old term, and it didn't make any sense for them to use it because clearly, they weren't doing jiu-jitsu. They were doing judo. The Japanese were like, "Why are you calling jiu-jitsu? It's clearly judo." I call it Brazilian judo. I don't call it Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's not going to change anything, but it would be a more accurate description of what we do would be Brazilian judo because that's what it was. It's just nage waza. That's what we practiced. It's just that Brazilians got so good at it that once you change the ruleset, you create a new martial art. Long story short, that's what happened, and we wanted to tell the story of all the forgotten characters. There are many, many people that we feel were left out of the story. We wanted to tell them because we thought they were relevant. Members of the Gracie family, not just other Japanese and other Brazilians like George Gracie, most people have never heard of him, very important character in the history of BJJ. **Sonny:** It sounds to me that those books you mentioned, I've heard them recommended online and pretty much always in the same sentences that they're very hard to read and very dry academic text, and you might not actually enjoy it. Yes, it seems to me that because of that nature, you've decided to make something that's a bit more entertaining, a bit more digestible, and that the differences between the commonly accepted myth and what we have as historical accounts being the differences in there is the story to tell really, is that right? **Robert:** Yes, it's very difficult to be a historian and be unbiased because we are unaware of our own biases. That's the problem. I am aware of the fact that I have to look for my biases, and I spend a lot of time doing it. A lot of the historians like two of them at least, not accused me, but they have implied because they read the script of the film and they've been giving me a lot of consulting. They've implied that I'm pro-Gracie. That I'm taking it way too easy on Carlos and Helio, and they were far less important than I'm making them sound. Again, that's where my interpretation comes in. It does fall on me. Perhaps, it's a lot of responsibility for someone even though I'm acquainted with the story, I am not a professional historian, neither am I filmmaker, but maybe because of these two things, maybe I'm well-positioned to be the impartial person maybe because I'm half-American, half-Brazilian. I don't have a dog in this fight. I spend a lot of time self-reflecting thinking about am I being biased towards or for someone? I don't think I am. We're really doing our best to be just how it is. We want to talk about historical events that have nothing to do with fighting, but they're relevant. The Russo-Japanese War, Commodore Perry's pointing at the Cannons at Edo in 1854 and forcing the shogun to open the ports to Western capitalism. Without that, would have Jigoro Kano developed judo? Probably not. Judo is a product of the opening of Western ideas into the East into Japan, so that played a role. The rubber boom in Brazil in the Amazon. The rubber boom is very important. That's why Maeda went to Brazil in the first place. The Japanese immigration. The role of Maeda. What is the role of Maeda? Why does everyone assume that he's the starting point of everything? What did he actually teach? Was he teaching that much? What is his actual role? To me, these are all important questions, and they're not clear. What we get from the source is that he's practically retired in Brazil. His role is very unclear but he has an experience in catch wrestling. The role of [catch wrestling is very important in Brazilian jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/). I can't back this up, I can't prove it, but it's my suspicion. In Brazil till this day, they don't say chave de braço which means arm bar or juji gatame which would be the Japanese terminology. They say arm lock. When you knee bar someone, it's not chave de joelho, [leg lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). The Kimura is also known as Americana. Now, if this is not the influence of catch wrestling, I don't know what is. In Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they call arm lock, Americana. These are terms that came from catch wrestling I'm convinced. I can't prove it. The influence of catch wrestling of the circus to me is indisputable. The approach focus on the Gracie family I think it's an injustice to history, and we're trying to correct that as best we can. **Sonny:** That's fascinating what you're saying. I think the Americana can't be in any doubt with Bob Anderson showing it and saying himself that he learned from old folk style wrestlers in America, which came from catch wrestling. I don't see how that can be disputed at all really. It's funny I've been doing some research into Kazushi Sakuraba to put a video together for him. I've found I guess some of the things that you're mentioning is that I just wanted to focus on the techniques to explain how Kazushi Sakuraba was able to do what he did. It's so much more than just the techniques because to explain it properly it's like you do have to talk about the globalization of the world of how a Japanese man is using techniques, he learned from an Englishman to beat Brazilians, and there's so much more to the story than just armbars and leglocks that I think you're trying to tell, right? **Robert:** You ever hear that, I think it's a Mark Twain quote that goes, how does it go? It goes, "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." "Oh, let's distort things to make it better." In the case of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, it's the opposite. The real story is much better than the one we had heard. The real story is something that has to do with nationalism. It has to do with politics in Brazil. It has to do with the rivalry between the Brazilian nationalists and the Japanese immigrants. They're fiercely nationalists. We're talking the 1930s and '40s here. Remember what was going on in the world in the 1930s and '40s. Where was Japan? Who was Japan? Japan is an aspiring superpower planning to cross the Pacific and colonize the Americas. We're not just talking Hawaii here. We're talking the Amazon. They were very ambitious people. Imagine how the Japanese community felt about Brazilians who had appropriated their art, and now they're challenging us. Just imagine how they felt about it. This is just another example of Japanese nationalism in Brazil unrelated to martial arts, but still a great side story. In the 1940s after Hirohito surrenders, after the end of World War II, the Japanese were so fanatical about their emperor that when the Brazilian press or any Brazilian or any Japanese went around saying that Japan had surrendered, they consider that a piece of propaganda. They founded a terrorist group, and they would go around killing people that would dare say that the emperor had surrendered because the emperor is God, and by definition, he can't surrender. Here's the best part, they did that with just Samurai swords. Just to give an example of the fanaticism of some of these Japanese nationalists. They were in Brazil too. They were all over Brazil so for them, watching Brazilians to challenge them in their art must've felt like a huge insult. That rivalry to me is super interesting. That is way more interesting than Helio observing his brother while teaching class, and then learning by osmosis. Who believes that? It's such a simplistic-- I don't know. When I look at the actual development of Brazilian jiu-jitsu away from the official narrative, I think it's far more interesting. It doesn't discredit anyone. It's just more rich that's all it is. **Sonny:** Yes, I'd agree with you on that about it being more rich. That's the problem looking into the Sakuraba for me is I just wanted to start a video on how he was using the Kimura double wrist lock. Then it's like, "Why was he the only one turning his back?" Then all of a sudden, you're down a rabbit hole of pro wrestling. He's a pro wrestler. Why do pro wrestlers turn their back? Pro wrestling came from catch wrestling. How did [catch wrestling turn into pro wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/)? Where did catch wrestling come from? The simple fact of him having a habit of turning his back to look for that double wrist lock just goes so much deeper than just, it was a move he chose. **Robert:** No. There's a history. It's interesting. It's so ironic to me that the Japanese through Sakuraba have appropriated a western style. Then the other Brazilian representatives, In a Gi going through Japan, you're using a Japanese martial art. To me, that's so ironic. This is probably one of my favorite parts of the documentary. I love this story so much, and I've told in every podcast I've ever been on because it's such a good story. **Sonny:** Please. **Robert:** We went to Yuki Nakai in Tokyo, I wasn't sure whether Yuki Nakai was going to stay because he's a godfather of Brazilian jiu-jitsu in Japan. He's the president of the Japanese Brazilian jiu-jitsu Federation, and I just love that. Japanese president of the Brazilian jiu-jitsu Federation, which is so ironic to me. His interview was probably one of the best ones, if not the best one. He said some-- He just gave them some gems about how Japanese perceive Brazilians, because he's a judoka of course in judo, fought Shooto. Then he had that clash with Hickson in '94, and later he loses on eye, falls in love with Brazilian jiu-jitsu, runs a school in Tokyo. He told us that his reaction to, or the common Japanese reaction to Brazilian jiu-jitsu was three. The first one was surprise. It was like, "Who are these people? Why are they calling it jiu-jitsu? Why they're not calling it Judo?" They had no idea there was a movement in Brazil that resembled Kosen judo, but that was their first reaction was surprise. The second reaction Yuki Nakai tell us is, it was respect and a little bit of fear. I think he used the word fear, if I'm not mistaken. They're looking at guys like Rickson and Hois they're going, "These guys are really good. How do these Brazilians get so-- We had no idea there were all these Brazilians that are not from judo officially, right? Indirectly they are, but not directly under a Kodokan rule set, and they're really good. There's that element of fear. Then the third feeling, the third sentiment was one of nostalgia and sorrow for having lost something so valuable because it's like, "We had this. We created it. This is ours, and we lost it to Brazilians." Brazilians had to revamp it, recycle it, and bring it back under the new terminology of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which they embrace humbly. They're not going, "This is our art. It's Japanese jiu-jitsu or Japanese judo, oh it's judo." They accept the term Brazilian jiu-jitsu. They accept the Brazilians have essentially change the name of their art, brought it back to Japan, and there's no ego there. They humbly accepted it. I don't speak Japanese, so I'm reading the translation. You can see he was very sincere in that. I thought it was such an admirable position for them to take, because they can make a much better claim. You see this idiotic debate about Brazilian jiu-jitsu, American jiu-jitsu. I'm just listening to this. I'm like, "You guys are stupid." The people that could actually make a case for it aren't. It's all Japanese, it's all judo. They could actually make a much stronger case for saying something like that, but they don't. They humbly accept Brazilian jiu-jitsu. These things to me, those are my favorite things about the documentary. It was fun just being-- and part of this, and being able to better understand our roots, and the influence of Brazilian culture and Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I became aware of that during this trip. It had never dawned on me how much of Brazilian culture was in the sport. I'll give you an example. still in Yuki Nakai's gym. We go to the Kosen judo gym in Tokyo University and Kyoto University. The black belts show up 30 minutes early. When have you ever seen that in a Brazilian [jiu-jitsu school the black belt](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/) showing up 30 minutes early? Unless they're Aussie or American maybe. The Brazilians definitely don't. I'm half Brazilian. I can say it. We show up five minutes early. That's counting yourself lucky if I'm five minutes early. They show up 30 minutes early, and they're sweeping the mats. Altogether, sweeping the mats. I have a video. It's perfect synchrony. Absolutely beautiful to watch. I filmed them, recorded them cleaning their mats. Their gi's are spotless white, nails trimmed. Their bow was 90 degrees, a 90 degree bow to us was so-- and then we go to Yuki Nakai gym. Everyone was very respectful. I always say this. No one was-- It was different. They were respectful in a Brazilian way. They showed up late. They sat down their legs open, taping their fingers very calmly, laughing, chilling. Their gi's were not that clean. They weren't bowed 90 degrees. It was a hand shake or a fist bump. I'm looking at that and I'm going, "That's not Japan." We're in Tokyo, but these mats are not Japanese. They're more Brazilian than Japanese because that's how Brazilians are, sit with their legs wide open. If you show up late, no one cares. Fist bump, Acai after workout. It's very Brazilian. It's very surf culture. I think that Rio de Janeiro surf culture permeated jiu-jitsu more than people realize. Even some of the streetwear what the jiu-jitsu wear is very influenced by surf culture. To me, it's not Japanese. It's something that we've appropriated from the Rio de Janeiro culture, and it's inevitable. You go to Chechnya, you go to Dagestan, you go to Japan, you go to Canada. You name it. You go to Paraguay. You're going to find a Brazilian jiu-jitsu school, and you see aspects of Brazilian culture inside the mats, or on the mats. Sorry, Portuguese in my head. This was very interesting for me to observe. To me, it was so much fun doing this. I got to have a much better understanding of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and why things are the way they are just being part of the production. **Sonny:** Yes. I found that fascinating too just the way that maybe these unconscious habits can be spread through just practice of the sport, and how those influences can all be combined. One of the things that did make me think about there speaking of Yuki Nakai was, the all-time great Brazilian jiu-jitsu movie *Choke* with Rickson in the Vale Tudo tournaments. When he heel hooks Gerard Gordeau in his first match, and that's the one where he loses his eye as well, which is amazing. He hooks Gerard Gordeau and I'm thinking, "Wait, he's not doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Where did he learn the heel hook from?" **Robert:** You're right, and it's important to remember. You just mentioned something very important. Shooto has always existed. Shooto precedes the UFC by many, many years. At the same time, we got give Brazilian's credit for creating the UFC namely Rorian, Art Davie, and others. He didn't do it alone, but Rorian was a big part of it. The Japanese never stopped. There was a tradition of fighting of Shooto that never really stops Japan. It's pretty much MMA. It just never took off for some reason. I think it was missing some-- Maybe it was the cage. Maybe it was Art Davie. Maybe it was the American paper view. Maybe it was Dana White. It never really took off. This culture of fighting always existed in Japan, and Japan was not limited to judo. The Kosen schools never really died in Japan. They were just not as popular as the Olympic style. Judo as an Olympic style had become so dominant around the world, not just Japan that the techniques on the ground there just no one practice them because there's no use for them in tournaments. There's not enough time on the ground for them develop. Except if you're doing Shooto or catch. There was this always-- It's like Brazilians and Japanese, they meet again. They met through Ono and Helio or even before that with Omori and Carlos and then Helio and Kimura. Later, they're going to meet again. It's part of the same movement. It's the whole thing. It died for a long period of time. It was dead in the '70's, '80s, '90s. It revives, and we're reliving that moment that-- It's a momentum that began early in the 20th century. When I look at the fight world today, I really see a continuation of something that started 100 years ago. **Sonny:** Yes. Let's maybe go back to that 100 years ago point in time, because that's another thing with Shooto that I was fascinated to find out. Started by Satoru Sayama who was as a wrestler is Tiger Mask, and wrestled all around the world Mexico, Japan. Learned from Karl Gotch who was a catch wrestler to start Shooto. In fact, the comic book or manga that Tiger Mask based his character off was in fact, the inspiration for Kazushi Sakuraba to get into pro-wrestling as a child. He's reading the manga of Tiger Mask that leads him to getting into pro-wrestling, which eventually led to his catch wrestling or MMA career. I'm wondering if we can go back to that catch wrestling start back when it first began as a way for bored English minors to place bets which was developed before the establishment of the judo Kodokan and how things go from there. **Robert:** I'm less familiar with the history of catch around the world, to be honest. I am a little more familiar with the role it plays in Brazil, because that's really what I've studied and what I put my energy into. There's no doubt that catch wrestling plays a role in development of judo and martial arts in Japan, as you described. For some reason it never really took off as a sport and I wonder why that was because clearly, it's important. It has a tradition that much older than judo in fact. There were catch wrestlers traveling the world way before judoka wrestlers were doing it. It's not like they weren't known around the world and sometimes I wonder if the Japanese hierarchical system didn't play a role here. Much later, but the bells, the uniforms, whereas the whole even, but again, you have Western wrestling, which is a world sport. It's everywhere. I don't really know why catch wrestling never really started a federation. They missed the Kodokan. Kodokan became their organization for judo, IBJJF for BJJ. I think cash never really had that maybe, but it's a little unfair with the art because they were very important and we describe their role is undeniable. George Gracie trained catch wresting for a while, even Helio crossed trained with the Luta Livre catch wrestlers that he prepared with them for one of his fights. It's just that in Brazil, it later becomes Luta Livre and it's catch, but Luta Livre is very influenced by Brazil Jiu-jitsu. It goes back and forth. It's just not one way. It's a two- way street. As an example, is the Luta Livre crowd in Brazil, some gyms train in gi pants, and they wear belts, where do they get that? It was an influence of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu or judo really. As far as the history of catch wrestling, man, I know it's a very rich history, but it doesn't fit in the documentary. We stop where catch influences Brazil. We mention it briefly and we move on because there's way too much to talk about in 90 minutes. That's the problem by the way. **Sonny:** I totally understand that problem you're having because it does go-- runs so deep. Maybe if we skip forward then just to bring us into the Brazilian Jiu-jitsu picture is Maeda and just linking it up with catch, when he was traveling the world as Conde Korma. Another part that blew my mind is to find out that he actually competed in the world catch wrestling championships in London, in 19' or something or rather, and there's that picture of him in the tights doing the hammerlock and half Nelson. When I saw those, I'm like, "What is this?" How did that all play out? **Robert:** Maeda, a few interesting things with Maeda. If you go on Pedreira's site GTR, global training report, and if you type in global training report, top 20 myths about Maeda, it's very interesting. It's a must read very, very, because it mystifies a lot of the things that we know or what we think we know about Maeda. From my understanding, and we even had some stories about people who knew people who knew Maeda in **\[unintelligible 00:34:09\]** in the Amazon. He was a fairly known character and the stories that circulated about him made me like him even more. Not because he was a master Miyagi because he really came across as a normal person. That's why I like him even more now, because I've always been suspicious of the heroic type. You put them on a pedestal and this guy is really different. This guy is special. Yes, he was heroic in some way and then when you meet him, you're always disappointed. You're always disappointed when you meet your heroes because when you meet them, you see their human and then you're always disappointed. I've been disappointed every single time I met someone who I admired because I saw that they were human. They were not superhero and now I like him more. I've evolved, passed that worshiping phase of him. I like you even more now, but Maeda apparently liked to gamble, and he was a womanizer and he loved to drink and he liked to dress nicely. When people that met that knew people that knew him described him, it was like man, what a normal person. He just went to Brazil trying to make money and he had his moment on a stage in London like you're describing is 1908, if I'm not mistaken. **Sonny:** Yes, that sounds right. **Robert:** He had his moment there, man. He liked the crowd and he liked the reporters and he probably had groupies. Was it really that different from a UFC fighter today? I don't know, maybe he talked some trash. Maybe he didn't, I don't know how good his English was. From all accounts it wasn't very good. It's interesting to me when you see these characters that we put on pedestals, we frame them on the wall and they become godlike to see them with a normal face and a normal demeanor. I liked him even more. Maeda, I think that he was just enjoying his like-- think about, imagine how many places Maeda went into. He was all over Europe, Spain, England. He went to the United States, Mexico, Cuba, all through South America, ends up in the Amazon. This man came from Japan in the early 20th century, early 1900s. It's like, for us, it's the equivalent of going to Mars or something. Look at the experience this man had, he was enjoying his life. He was living his life to the fullest. To me, I think martial arts, even though he certainly was passionate about it, it was a vehicle for him to be normal. He just wanted to travel the world, make his money and have a good time. He reaches his 40s and he settles in the Amazon, gets married, has a couple kids, boom. What's more normal than that. He lived his life, man. He lived it with intensity. Traveling the world like that today is already very ambitious and unusual, 100 years ago, man it's a dream come true. It's not even-- how many people in that era can say that. When you put things in perspective like that, I think that he was not a missionary of judo. I think he was just like, "Hey man, I'll make it anyway I can." When he got older, he moved away from fighting. He became a diplomat. He was an ambassador for Japanese immigrants in the Amazon, which is like a whole side story that's really interesting too. I fell in love with the character even more than not because he's a superhero, but because he was so normal. That's why I like George Gracie by the way because George was so normal from all accounts, same thing, womanizer, he'd drink a beer after fights with his friends, he was a normal guy. He was just enjoying his life and I suspect when Carlos presented the Gracie diet, it's not really Gracie diet. It's from an Argentina nutritionist, but that's a different story too. I suspected George went like, "Get out to here, man. I'm not going to eat oranges all day, that's stupid. No, I'm going to eat meat like everyone else. I'll eat whatever I want. That's stupid." Carlos was like, "Oh, this is how you have to eat." George, to me, my guess is he would've been like, "Get out to here with that crazy diet." Every person who described him described him as a rebel, which makes me like him even more because he seems so normal. I think that's what came across. The history of Jiu-jitsu is a very normal history, even though it's very rich, it's very normal in the sense where its characters are not different from the same people you know in everyday life. You know someone like George Gracie, and you know someone like Carlos, and you know someone like Helio. You know immigrants, they're struggling to make money an immigrant. You know an immigrant out there that will do just about anything to get paid. Why would we think that Japanese were any different? There were not these noble missionaries, there were hustlers. I'll work in a sugarcane field. I'll work in a coffee plantation. You want me to teach judo even better? **Sonny:** Yes, for me, I've always found that idea of them traveling around the world to challenge different martial art styles, and going by boat just to think that they must have been sitting there for ages thinking about I'm going to go to this place and ask people to fight. There's something just romantic about that I just read about and it draws me into that must have been a wild adventure. **Robert:** There's a Brazilian director called José Padilha who was a director of Narcos and RoboCop. You might have heard of them. He's paid with Netflix now and he's doing a film on Rickson Gracie. Originally, I think the film is more focused on Rickson now. Originally it was about Maeda, Helio, Rickson. He was going to tell more of the history of BJJ. I actually spoke to him on the phone a couple of years ago because it's around the same time we started working on our project and I'm trying to convince him to do something different. I'm like, "Man, if you're going to do a film, let's do something. Let's move away from that *Rocky Balboa*." How many times have we seen that film, the hero type? How many times have we seen that? I wanted to write a story about nationalism, the rivalry between Brazilians and Japanese, which I thought was way more interesting than just that *Rocky Balboa* the superhero type, we've seen that movie so many times. The recipe works, it sells but he wasn't too interested in something that was atypical. Just watch his films, you get to the typical superheroes. He's a good director but his story will be very, very inaccurate. Whatever comes I can almost guarantee you- -I offer not even for myself to put him in contact with other historians that could help him so he doesn't make any mistakes but he seemed to be adamant about telling what he thought was the truth ad not really what was historically verifiable. I can almost guarantee it's going to be very inaccurate. **Sonny:** Well, that was also then one of the things that made me, however, you want to put it but the classic Hixon, 400-0 record which the first time I heard it I was like "Wow, that's the most incredible thing I've ever heard." Now, I'm looking back going, "I can't believe I ever really believed 400-0. Come on, it's an absurd claim used for marketing." Those kinds of marketing things- **Robert:** No, you're right. I was just going to say it's important. The marketing was important but that's what it is. I'm the same as you, the first time I heard that like, "Oh, my God this guy can walk on water." Then later you start learning more about fighting and you blame the BJJ" I'm like "That's like a child's tale. How can you even--?" There're people that have records like that and he certainly had a very impressive record for his time but the whole pedestal thing, you don't have to dig too deep to find out that it just doesn't stand. It just doesn't hold but no doubt he was an important character. **Sonny:** No doubt, of course, all the usual caveats you can stand on the work that we do have on video footage, he's very important to the role. Let's be real. The other parts there're some probably disputing then is when Maeda actually gets to Brazil and actually starts teaching the art, whatever it is you want to say he's actually teaching to people who was actually the learning and who we actually taught. How did that all start to play out? **Robert:** The traditional narrative goes Maeda gets to Brazil and he's fighting in the circus, Gastão Gracie Senior, Carlos' father was a circus owner and a fight manager. That's all true. There very likely there was a connection although we can't prove it. It's very likely that there's a lot of truth to that because they were in the same scene, one's a circus manager and fight manager, the other one is was a fighter fighting in the circus, right? Same place. Ironically, the very first time Gracie is in contact with Jiu-jitsu, he's managing wrestlers against Jiu-jitsu, the Japanese. They're actually working against Jiu-jitsu and the Japanese are complaining that the wrestlers had too much oil on their body so they couldn't really grapple with them. I just thought that's the first time Gracie is in contact with Jiu-jitsu, is working against it really. Maeda settles there and he teaches, they're five Brazilians that are in the forefront as Maeda's students. It's very obvious because they're repeatedly referenced in the press. Over and over and over you see Maeda being associated with these five Brazilians. Jacyntho Ferro was the most prominent one, Dr. Matheus Pereira, Waldemar, Gomes Raphael, Lopes, and Guilherme de La-Rocque. These five Brazilians and very likely they were promoted, we're not sure to what rank that seems to be. It's either the last cue which will be today the equivalent of a brown belt or Shodan down which is first-degree blank range. They don't go black and then first degree, they go straight to first degree. That's where they start the black belt. Given how long they had been training under Maeda approximately five years and given the Kotokan would have promoted somewhere around that period of time, it's very likely that Maeda promoted them to black belt except that the reporters did not understand the language at the time. Early in the 20th century black belt meant nothing. He just promotes them to first rank. That's the best they can translate, promoting the five to first rank. First rank of what? The reporter didn't think it relevant enough to mention, he probably didn't understand the difference anyway, but very likely black belt. Then when you see others and you see these five Brazilians being consistently mentioned in the press, at one point Maeda is tired of fighting, still know, he's getting challenged and he just goes, "I'm too old, I don't want to fight. Fight one of my students. Take one of the five and you can fight one of them." Nowhere in there is Carlos Gracie mentioned, that's the real problem because how can he be his favorite if he's never mentioned. A, he was too young. You got to remember he's a teenager at this time. It's highly unlikely that he's the most prominent figure in a place where you have all these known athletes with fight experience, and he's a teenager and he's the boss in the gym when Maeda is not around. Helio implies that in her biography. You become a little suspicious of how much Carlos actually trained there. There's an article 1922, if I'm not mistaken that mentions a man called Oscar Gracie fighting Donato Pires dos Reis. Oscar is very likely an error by the journalist's comment at the time, probably Carlos, maybe it was Oswaldo, a little too young perhaps but very likely Carlos Gracie. What's interesting about this article is that they're both referenced as students of Jacyntho Ferro not of Maeda even if Maeda is present at the event. Whatever little evidence we have at this time suggests that in fact Carlos was trained under Jacyntho Ferro and not Maeda directly because Maeda he's moved away from that position of teaching at that point. Even though it's possible that Carlos had some experience with Maeda, this is the one thing that every historian agrees on, that relationship is exaggerated. It's just the degree to how exaggerated it is that people disagree on. **Sonny:** I guess even just saying that relationship is exaggerated is such a diversion from what is commonly accepted as what happened, that it raises a lot of questions or a lot of interest in and of itself. Donato Pires, his story, I might be getting my stories mixed up so you'll be able to correct me. I had a thought that I'd heard that maybe his involvement with Carlos Gracie was more important or at the time he claimed it did and there was an argument over that at the time, is that? **Robert:** Donato was very important because he gives Carlos his first job teaching Jiu-jitsu. Donato is the one who's in a challenge with Oscar Gracie, it's the same person. In 1928, they will meet again in Belo Horizonte which is close to Rio, and Donato is the head instructor for the police there. He hires Carlos as his assistant. He gives Carlos Gracie his first job teaching Jiu-jitsu. Two years later, Carlos has a brief experience in São Paulo where he actually opens the first Gracie academy. The first Gracie academy is opened in São Paulo in 1929 or 1930, I can't remember now but it was opened for a few months, it didn't do well. You're talking about going against the best Japanese in the country were living in São Paulo at the time. Carlos had some tough competition. He didn't survive, he moves to Rio where he opens a school under Donato. Donato is the head instructor in 1930 of the Jiu-jitsu Academy it was called. Carlos Gracie and George Gracie are assistant instructors, meaning they were there but there's clearly a hierarchy as to who's the boss and who's an instructor there, Carlos is under him. Right away you see a hierarchy. That academy, by the way, it was not called the Gracie Academy. The Jiu-jitsu academy its founder was Donato 1930. There is no Gracie academy in 1925. They have to fix that patch and this is not controversial. There's nothing that points to the Gracie academy 1925. 1930 is when it' s founded by Donato. He later leaves, he has a fallout with the Gracie brothers. They attack at the hotel America or Donato says, claims so at least that he was attacked by the brothers. He's a tax collector, he doesn't need the money. He goes on with his life and he just leaves the gym and Carlos takes over. From then onwards it becomes the Gracie Academy but it was only after this fallout. He would later, I believe in 1936, it might have been before, I can't remember exactly the year but he's going to open an academy in São Paulo with George Gracie. He doesn't disappear from the scene. He has a much better relationship with George who was enemies with Carlos and Helio at this time. He's a very important character because he actually claimed to have a diploma from Conde Korma from Maeda. We never saw the diploma. There's at least one reporter who confirms seeing a diploma but we don't know of what but he claimed to have a certificate which at that time was more valuable than a black belt really. That's all people cared about was a diploma. He also claimed that Carlos never met Maeda which is very interesting because the only eye witness, the only person who could comment on this period other than Carlos Gracie himself was Donato because he's from Belem do Para, he was a student of Jacyntho Ferro and he categorically says that Carlos never met Maeda. Now, this is at a time when he's enemies with Carolos. Whether he was just saying that to attack Carlos or he was really telling the truth we're never going to know. My personal suspicion is that Donatos not the most reliable of characters. He was a political actor like everyone else, but the only eyewitness at the time, other than Carlos himself to comment on this relationship is Donato, and he very emphatically says that they never even met. **Sonny:** That's interesting that that's possibly how it went down. Donato Perez, when he's making those claims, is that after he was attacked, or was that before he was attacked? **Robert:** Probably. Here's the case for Carlos here, if you knew nothing about Jiu-Jitsu, why did he invite him to be an assist instructor, both in Minas Gerais and Rio De Janeiro? If he didn't know any Jiu-Jitsu, why would you invite a guy who doesn't know any Jiu-Jitsu to teach next to you? Why would you? It makes no sense. Once he's on bad terms with Carlos, that's when he goes around saying he never make Carlos or Maeda. You can see that there's a political rivalry there as well and that might have impacted the choice of words, but at the same time, his testimony is at least as valuable as Carlos. At the very, very least, just as valuable. He was there. We know for a fact that he was a student of Justin Tofehu. We know that he outranked Carlos because both times they're interacting, Donato is in a higher position, a position of authority over Carlos, which suggest that Carlos was learning from him as well given that hierarchy. Carlos probably learned from him. A lot of his historians or a lot of researchers in Brazil, they claimed that Geo Omori might have been the source for a lot of their knowledge. Through George Gracie, Geo Omori have a good relationship with George. George was actually the one teaching the brothers, Carlos and Hélio, because he was better than, during the beginning at least, he was better than Hélio, was better than Carlos. Geo Omori might have been a source of their as well. Anyway, what everyone agrees on is that the relationship, the apprenticeship of Carlos under Maeda is grossly exaggerated. That seems to be unanimous. No one really argues with that. **Sonny:** That's pretty believable that he could be exaggerating his story or that's just wrong that if he's invited him to be a Jiu-Jitsu instructor, then he must have some experience, obviously, that would make sense. Then after he gets attacked by them, his claims are, no, he didn't know a thing. I can see how that could play out. **Robert:** The order of events is instructive here. Anyway, the story is interesting. Either way, in one way or another, the role of Carlos is undeniable. It's just that his role was not a technical one, and that's what people get mad at them, "Oh, you're supposed to revolutionize the art," then I go, "This is where my challenge comes in." Watch them do positions, watch the videos of the 1950s, '60s, does it look very sophisticated? What's different from what the Japanese were doing? It's less sophisticated, it's not more, so what did he revolutionize? This is why I keep asking, "Show me the technical evolution that you're talking about." It's inferior to the Japanese, it's not superior, so if anything, they were a notch below, technically, not above. This is very clear about how adamant they were about tweaking the rules to their favor, fighting with shorter gis. They didn't want to fight the Japanese with long gis. That was a huge issue. The gis thing kept coming up over and over and over. They did not want to fight with long gis, they wanted short sleeves. Marcel Sahan, one of the Brazilian historians, he goes, "The Gracies were more Japanese than the Japanese" because the Japanese would take their gis off to fight. Geo Omori, "No, gig? Let's go. Point? Okay. No point? Okay. A different way class, no problem, let's go." Then Carlos and Hélio are more traditional, "Oh, it has to be in a gi, the sleeves have to be short, it has to be noble points, longer fights." They're very specific about how they wanted to fight and George was different. That's why I wanted to raise that, George was less picky, even though most of George's fights were probably fake too. He admitted to that, by the way, he admitted to most of his fights being fake, but he was the kind of guy like, "You want to fight? Let's go. What ruleset? Don't care, let's go." **Sonny:** Just to bring up. In doing my research for this interview, for the first time, I saw, it looked like it was from a course in Judo textbook of someone doing, it pretty much looks like rubber guard in there. It was the first time I saw that and I was like, "Wow, I might have to look into that a bit more," but just on the surface, that's what it looked like. It's going then into rulesets. One of the stories that really highlighted that for me was the story of Rufino Dos Santos and his trying to arrange a match with, I think it was Carlos **Robert:** Rufino, because he's a catch wrestler, he's the instructor of gymnastics at the YMCA in Rio De Janeiro. He ends up fighting with Carlos and the match was a bit complex. It was controversial in the sense where apparently, Rufino was in the ring, they're going out of bounds with the ropes. Carlos catches a choke, the ref tells him to stop. Carlos keeps choking, they're out of bound, Rufino apparently taps. Rufino claims because the ref said to stop and you're still choking me. Then Carlos says, "I won." The referee demands that Carlos continues fighting, sides with Rufino. Carlos says, he tap, "I'm not fighting again," and then he goes, "If you don't step on the mask to continue to fight, we're going to disqualify you. I'm going to give the fight to Rufino Dos Santos," so that's what happens. Carlos refuses to continue fighting, Rufino was declared the winner. The trash-talking back and forth in the press keeps going. It gets so extreme that it gets to the point where Rufino Dos Santos attacked outside the Ginásio do Tijuca Tênis Clube. If you're an old-school Jiu-Jitsu person, you know exactly what I'm talking about because Ginásio do Tijuca Tênis Clube is where the world championships were held in Rio De Janeiro, so just outside that arena. They attack him. Hélio claims that he attacked him alone, Rufino Dos Santos claimed that it was all the Gracie brothers, it was Valdo, George, Hélio, and Carlos. One of them remained in the car. I think it was Valdo who stayed in the car and the other three attacked him together. It's interesting, that's not the first time that's happened. They've been accused about three times with Bourgi with Manuel Rufino Dos Santos, and Donato Pires Dos Reis. Donato Pires Dos accuse them of attacking him, the Gracie brothers attacking him outside his hotel where he lived, Hotel America where he lived. This time with Rufino Dos Santos, they're actually arrested. They're sentenced to prison, two and a half years sentenced to prison. The Brazil at the time was a dictatorship. It was under Getúlio Vargas, who was a very controversial figure in Brazilian history, but Vargas, he was a Brazilian strong man at the time. Whatever he said was law. One of the Gracie student was this woman, I don't remember her name, but she held a role inside his office. I don't know if she was his secretary. I can't remember what her role was, but she knew Getúlio Vargas, the dictator at the time, very well. She threw her connections and managed to get a pardon from Getúlio Vargas to the Gracie brothers. They were convicted and later they are let free. They never served time, but this really did a lot of damage to them because they were really hustling to get a job at the Navy. They wanted to work with the military so they have a guaranteed salary. After this, they released them with a really bad rep in the press in Rio De Janeiro, so the Navy hires Takeo Yano instead. It was not such a noble period there for the Gracie brothers. If you're accused of the same thing three times, three independent sources all saying the same thing. It's interesting that they're all accusing them of using what they call *boxe aço. N*ow, it's difficult to translate because it's not a box and *aço* means steel. No one goes to a fight with a steel box, but it's very likely brass knuckles because box, "I'm going to box you with steel." That's might have been what the reports were referring to, brass knuckles at the time. They were accused of using brass knuckles in the attack. It's certainly not the most noble aspect of their history. Again, before people judge them too, you got to remember, we've all had our-- I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I would've done that, but you got to be careful not to be the other side too like, "Oh, they're horrible." I don't think that's admirable, but that doesn't diminish their role in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. That's why we don't talk about it in the film because, okay, they attacked Manuel Rufino Dos Santos and then they beat them up, does that change their role in BJJ? No. Does that make them angels? No, they were not angels. If that's the answer you're looking for, they're far from angels, but that their role is still there, that doesn't change. If I made a documentary about Hélio and Carlos, I would mention these things, but I don't, I'm making a document about Jiu-Jitsu. We're not going to get into their personal life. That's a whole another story, man. They're very interesting people, there's just no doubt about that. You can read Hélio's biography and the whole time is like, "Man." It's a very unique family and good and bad like any other family. I have a job because of them, but things are less admirable. I can't see myself attacking someone down the street with brass knuckles with my brothers unless they try to rape my daughter or something extreme like that. No circumstance can warrant something like that. **Sonny:** I think part of that story, the implication of a metal instrument, possibly brass knuckles, and the conviction, that might happen. I think part of it is that we might have that idolized myth of putting the photo on the wall, you have that higher opinion, and then that brings it down back to earth in such a startling way that it wasn't just a bad, I don't know what you can even describe it as. Let's just say attacking someone with brass knuckles is a pretty extreme form of revenge for people who you might assume are the noble image of martial artists. **Robert:** I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, but again, it just reinforces what I was saying earlier, people are people. We all lie. We're all messed up. We're not angels, we're not demons. We vary and only in the degree in which we lie and deceive, to the degree in which we're honest and dishonest. That's what we vary, but who can say that they're always honest? Who can say that they're always doing the right thing? Who can say that they never lie? The history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu comes with the good and bad, but here we are. Robson Gracie, another one of my favorite interviews, very, very charismatic. Renzo Gracie's father, very charismatic, and fun guy to hang out with too. He said something like that. I can't remember the exact words. He says like, "For good and better or for worse, here we are." I think he summarized the history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with those few words, because for better or for worse, the good and the bad. The good and the bad got us here. You are who you are because of the bad decisions you've made and because of the good decisions, the right decisions. We're not the product of only the good or the bad, it's we're a product of everything. Why should the history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu be any different? The history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it is the product of some hideous acts, but it's also the product of the stubbornness and egomania, and it's a product of some very brave moments, and it's a product of a lot of marketing, and the ambition to carve a niche outside of Judo and they do that. You got to give them credit because I much prefer BJJ over Judo. I don't dislike Judo, but I think BJJ is far more interesting. I know I'm biased, this is what I've been doing my whole life, but if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have this, we wouldn't have Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. We have Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because they've put their foots down and disagreed with the Japanese on the ruleset. What else are you going to say? It's both good and bad. **Sonny:** No, I agree with you on that. The fact that there's going to be the good, the bad, maybe the truth somewhere in the middle, maybe the ugly tacked on the end as well. That's not just the story of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, that's the story of life of the world. Every story you tell is going to do that. The idea that you could fit it all in a 90-minute documentary. **Robert:** That's where we're struggling because we have changed the script more times than I can count and it's hard, what do we leave out. There are so many great segments that we're going to leave out, so many, so many. What are you going to do? We have material for 12 episodes, but unless someone gives us a million dollars to produce 12 episodes, we can't do it. For 12 episodes, we need a million dollars. If someone's willing to give us a million, we'll produce 12 episodes. **Sonny:** That's the pitch there. **Robert:** Hey, if there's someone rich out there that really loves history, DM me, we can make this happen. I think for what we have, we've done a lot. I think we've done okay. I'm happy with what's coming out of this because we had to tell a hundred plus years of history, so many events, so many characters, so many outside influences. You can't correct history without talking about what's wrong about it. First, you got to tell what is wrong about history before you can correct it. If you just correct it, it's out of context. How do you do that in 90 minutes? It's very, very hard. **Sonny:** I'm of the opinion now that everyone should have the experience making a documentary like that so they can understand when they watch a documentary, maybe there's more to the story of how things could be portrayed and how much choices in the hands of the person making the film, what they put in, what they leave out, and what their limits are just so they can get more of an idea of the process. One of the things I don't want to leave out of this interview is the story of George Gracie. You've touched on him a bit. You've said he's one of your favorites. I wonder if we can just go into that a bit more and his development. **Robert:** No, absolutely. It's interesting because I heard of George since I was a white belt. The first time I heard of George Gracie, and I'll tell you why. My first instructor in Brazil, his father was a student of the Ono brothers and of George Gracie. That was the first time I'd heard of George, but you just didn't hear of him outside of that. The first time I heard of him as a white belt, I never heard of him after that. I'm like, "Why?" Then when I started reading more about the history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and that's when George started coming up all the time. George Gracie, George Gracie all the time. He was the first hero of the Gracie family. Hélio was still a swimmer, he was still rowing. He was not a fragile individual, we was an elite athlete. That's another myth that we're going to try to correct. The whole thing of him being weak was a market exploit. It's brilliant and it goes back to the rest of the Japanese work, small defeating the large, you see. He was a successful swimmer, but George was the first hero of the family. He just had a very different personality from Carlos to Hélio. Like I said, he seemed like a very normal guy and didn't follow the rules and did what he wanted to do. There was probably some disputes over five passes. Speculation, but it's the one thing that everyone fights over is for money. Brothers, family, money, working together, that's got to get complicated. George was interested in me because many of his fights were fake, but one of my favorite episodes about George is when he admitted. He went to the press in the 1940s and he basically goes, "By the way, all these fights you guys are watching and applauding, they're all fake," and everyone, "What? All fake?" and like, "Yes, most of them are fake." "Yours too." Like, "Yes, mine were fake too." He calmed himself, why would he do that? There was a certain degree of honesty there to be able to say something that hurts you and your cause. Then a reporter goes, "All of them are fake?" Then George goes, "No, not all of them. My brother, Hélio, he never fought a fake fight in his life." This is at a time when they were enemies. They were not on good terms. George and Hélio almost fought a few times. They almost went at it in the public, they were not on good terms, so instead, they had their students fight for them. George would pitch his students against Hélio's students and that's how they fought. For George at that time, when they were not on good terms, to praise his brother as the only person who never had a fake match, who does that? Who puts enemies up? He put himself down in order to put his enemy up. It takes a certain degree of honesty, and that's why he's not remembered, I'm convinced. He didn't have the ambition to be remembered. He was he's a normal person. He's like, "I don't have to have a legacy and be remembered in history. I can just be me and enjoy my life. I don't want to have 21 kids." He's such a normal guy, but he could be called, at least, the very least, one of the founding fathers of modern MMA. Why? Because what you could call the first Vale Tudo fight, Vale Tudo is what we used to call MMA back in the day. At that time, it was Valendo Tudo, a little bit different. His fight with Chico Solidadi was Vale Tudo in the '90s sense of the word; headbutts, no gloves, elbows, both of them in Speedos. "You do whatever you want to do, I'll do whatever I want to do, let's go at it." George wins the fight. It's arguably the first modern version of Vale Tudo, even far more brutal than the UFC, headbutts. I'm not sure about groin shots, I'm not sure about that, but I think groin shots might have been legal as well. He plays that role, man. He had a great relationship with the Japanese and he had a great relationship with the catch wrestlers and everyone loved him. From all accounts, he was funny, charismatic and that's why he's not remembered because history remembers who? History remembers the hustlers. It remember the people who are pushing to have a flawless record of 400-0 because go ahead, get something serious. If Rickson had fought in Abu Dhabi in 2001, 2003, you think he would have won? Or '99 for that matter, you think he would have won? I don't think he would have won. I don't think he would have beaten José Mário Sperry. I don't think he would have beaten those guys. What do you do? You conserve and crystallize that moment where I'm 400-0 and you stick to that and you pick your fights and it's nothing new. It was an old marketing scheme that was way back in the '30s; pick your fights, pick the ruleset, pick everything, and then make everything work in your favor, and then win, and then you market the hell out of that as the most important fight in history. If you draw, you didn't lose because you didn't get tapped, and if you lose, it's a moral victory because your opponent is heavier. You can't lose. You won't lose. You can't lose. You never admit defeat, everything is a victory. It's brilliant marketing and it works. It's surprisingly it still works. I had people argue with me about the 400 fights, and they get mad. It's almost like a religion. I'm like, "Man," and then you start thinking like, "Okay, I can see how dogma takes place, I can see where it begins." If some of these addicts had been born 800 years ago and we were still talking about him, he would have superpowers, he'd be flying. He'd be doing armbars with the power of his mind. It gets blown so out of proportion when people just are so adamant about conserving that aura of invincibility, and it's just so inhuman. It's so supernatural. I look at it and I'm like, "Who believes this?" That's why I love the story of Maeda gambling, I love George Gracie the womanizer because he's normal, he's not a saint. **Sonny:** I guess that's probably part of the thing that interests me, especially with this sport, there seems to be that aura about the founders where, in other sports, it wouldn't even be debatable that the people coming up now are better than people of the past. Maybe it's easier with running, you've got a set time, but in every other sport, it's a given that improvements have been made and the people of the past were the best at that time. You could say that if they were born now, they would be the best now, they had that natural gift, or you can make that argument. The fact that it's even controversial even to say that, I understand it, I guess, but I just feel that it just shouldn't really cause any tension. **Robert:** It's fundamentalism. It's just under a religious form, but quasi-religious. You're absolutely right. You can measure swimming, you're going to put an Olympic gold medalist from the '80s in a pool with Michael Phelps, what do you think is going to happen? Is that an insult to the swimmer of the 1980s that Michael Phelps outswam him? Why would you be offended? Swimming improved. "Do you love swimming?" "Yes, I love swimming." "Do you want swimming to improve as a sport?" "Yes, I do." "So why are you upset that people today have better times than people in the 90s? How arrogant are you to crystallize that moment in history and act like, 'Oh, no, the Jiu-Jitsu that I did in my prime was the best one.'" It'd be like me saying the Jiu-Jitsu in 2007 when I won ADCC was the best Jiu-Jitsu, there's nothing better than that. I'm like, "No, Jiu-Jitsu in 2007 was better," and I just want to keep saying that for the rest of my life. How arrogant am I? If you love your art, you want it to evolve. I am proud of the fact that my purple belt's going to be beating me very soon, and there's nothing wrong with that. So what? You want the art to evolve, don't you? Are we such egomaniacs that I have to be the huge superhero for the rest of my life? I can't lose, I can't accept the fact that the techniques evolve and that the new generations are better, and I can't pass on the torch acknowledging that they are standing on the shoulders of giants because I am standing on the shoulders of giants? The giants of the past are Rickson Gracie. He's one of them, are Royce Gracie and Carlson and Hélio, why can't you accept that I am here because of them, and without them, I would not have a job? Now whether the young generation wants to take knowledge of that speaks to their intelligence because if you have half a brain, you have to acknowledge these giants of the past, but to say that they are better grapplers than the young generation is delusional. The best scrap in the 1980s was Paulo Miyao and Paulo Miyao will be on his back in seconds. So what? It's a compliment to Jiu-Jitsu, it's not a compliment to Paulo Miyao. It's not an insult to Rickson Gracie. It's a compliment to the beautiful art of Jiu-Jitsu that we all love so much. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear you. It's funny you mentioned purple belts because I've even had that thought myself, rolling around I'm like, "Damn, these purple belts, they're getting good, man, they're getting good. Yes, they're going to get me," and they should. If the sport's evolving and they're not being held back at all, I'm getting older, they're younger, they're going to catch up and go past us. It's just the fact of life. **Robert:** That's a good thing. It really is, I insist on that. I think the young generation makes it hard sometimes. You get the purple belt with the Shoyoroll gi, watches a lot of YouTube videos, subscribes to every BJJ academy out there. He's like, "Yes, old man, I got it. I know more Jiu-Jitsu than you," and you're like, "You don't have shit. You had it all digested, you were spoon-fed that, you didn't come up with any of it. You're an idiot if you give yourself credit over things you didn't do." It drives me crazy when you get these 22-year-old purple belts like, "No, I got it." What do you got? You're spoon-fed. You didn't do anything. What did you actually develop? Go. You memorize something on YouTube. Don't act like you're all wise and knowledgeable, you're not. That's called memory. It's not impressive. I think it's cute in a condescending way when you get these purple belts and brown belts that are like, "Yes, I know, I got it." I'm like, "Man, you just wait" because I used to think that way too. I was that guy. I was that annoying blue belt who thought he knew it all. I knew three half-guard sweeps and I thought my Jiu-Jitsu was so sophisticated. You have to go through that. I think you only learn these things where you go through the phases. You have to experience that arrogance of youth to be able to become a wiser person as you get older. You look back and you go like, "Oh, man," it's embarrassing. It really is. It's just part of the journey. Like sometimes people say people like Gordon Ryan be so full of themselves, and then you're like, "I can't wait for him to retract every single thing he's saying and apologize to everyone" because he will. By the time he hits 40, he's going to, "Man, what an ass I was." Unless he's that crazy. I think if he's got half a brain, he's going to go, "Man, what an ass I was. I was a total idiot, really bragging about other people's accomplishments. I was treading a road that was built by other people. I was walking in a road that was built by hundreds and thousands of other people that came before me and I never acknowledged them and I never said thank you." **Sonny:** I think it's such a huge point there where you just hope that people don't get arrogant. You can just pretty hope that people don't take it in a negative direction. Then I guess the choice comes up to you, are you just going to let that happen or would you start thinking that, well, maybe if I do create some idols and some mythology, that can prevent it? Because they can never touch the mythology that we create because that's set in stone, so that's going to keep them in their place because there's this thing they can't challenge ever. Whereas you're just going to be like, "Okay, let's roll." If you get us, you get us fair and square, and it is what it is. **Robert:** We start this film with that. That's one of our opening lines, we crave mythology. To me, it's a glitch in human psyche. It's a flaw. If there's something we needed to fix, we have a leaning towards a mythology. I'll give you an example. If I hid behind my black belt and my accomplishments, I could literally cruise the rest of my life and no one would suspect that the Robert Drysdale of 2020 is not the same Robert Drysdale of 2008, '09. I could literally drift that way for the rest of my life no one would question me, but I don't do that. I throw myself on the mats, which, to me, is an act of bravery because I'm not as healthy and I'm not as athletic, but I'll throw myself on the mats and I'll train with my younger students. They're in their prime and they're giving me hell. The white belts looks at that, "What? Robert is not invincible? What? He just had a brown belt pass his guard?" I am no longer on a pedestal, therefore, I'm nowhere. The way they look at you, they don't think more of you, they think less. They should think more because it takes a lot of courage to step on the mats when you're beat up. I think it does. I admire if you commit and still competing, I'm like, "Man, you're a superhero." Wellington Megaton is a superhero. He's like 50 and he's still competing with the adults. I can't imagine, how beat up is that guy and he's still doing it? The way people see it is they see it as a sign of weakness instead of seeing it as a sign of strength. I think that someone who's mature enough will see the opposite. I have to force myself on the mat sometimes. I understand where some of these guys are coming from and why they want to hide, crystallize that moment of the past and make that the whole story because it's too hard to admit that you're going to lose to someone younger. It's not easy. It happens to me now and I don't like it, but I accept and what I tell myself is that I am a good representative of the art of Jiu-Jitsu because of that. I'm better for it and if people want bullshit, that's not on me. I'm going to give them reality and the reality is you can't stay in your prime forever. That's the reality. If you want to believe the mythology, go ahead man, believe 400-0, but that's on you and your lack of critical thinking. Your lack of skepticism. It's not my fault, you know what I'm saying? **Sonny:** Yes. **Robert:** I feel that instructors who give their students the truth are worthy of martial arts. I'm not trying to put myself in. I got many flaws, but I do make an effort to expose myself like that. I'm like I'm not scared of training with my students. If I get beat in practice, that's that. I have zero ambition to compete. People are like, "Why don't you compete?" I don't care about it anymore. I think that a lot of this idolizing of the past has to do with that. It's more about ego than it is about the growth of the art. **Sonny:** I hear that and I think that probably resonates with my own personal view as well. My instructor's still competing and I respect that and that's something. My goal is to still keep competing and still try and force myself to do those things. What would you say maybe to someone that you're trying to tell the truth, but, hey, these myths are out there, it's probably too late to change them? The myths have done some good in spreading Jiu-Jitsu and getting people involved in helping the marketing and promotion. Maybe without the myths, we wouldn't even be doing Jiu-Jitsu. **Robert:** Honestly, man, I think that without the marketing, we'd all be doing Judo. The lies are a part of it. The exaggerations, the myths, they're all part of what got us there, so are they necessary? I don't know man, I don't have a good answer, maybe they are. Maybe they're necessary because I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for those things and we would have been absorbed and swallowed whole by the spread of Jiu-Jitsu. Maybe it would have been better. Judo is a lot more. There's a lot to teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in terms of its philosophy and approach to life and values of respect and hierarchy. I think there's something to be said about Judo that we're missing in BJJ and I like it, but from a strictly martial perspective, from a combat perspective, I think they made way too many mistakes, they left too much out. They ignored too much a grappling. They don't let shots. A double and a single you can't, why would you do that? Why would you eliminate a double? Does it work? Yes. Then why are you eliminating it? Why would you eliminate a shoulder lock? Oh, you're going to get hurt? Takedowns don't hurt? Have you ever grappled? Takedowns hurt way more than submissions do. Sometimes I wonder, people who are making these rules, have you ever grappled? Do you have any experience with the sport or are you just coming up with stuff from your head like, "Oh, I think that this is what's going to happen, so that's the new rule set." Very common thing in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu today. Promoters coming up with rules. They have zero experience competing, but they're making rules. It's like me telling you what to do with your teeth. It's like me giving you advice on quantum physics. I don't know about it, I'm not going to give you advice. You want to create a rule set for Jiu-Jitsu, you talk to the competitors. You don't do that. Come up with rules and all head. Judo made mistakes, but as far as the philosophy goes, man, we have a lot to learn from them. I think it could be argued that we'd be better off doing Judo today, but technically, I don't like it nearly as much as I like Jiu-Jitsu. **Sonny:** Talk about the philosophy and that's one thing with Judo was the way and I think had elements of that Dallas philosophy and when they changed their name to Jiu-Jitsu, which I think meant just more techniques. There was some pushback with the Judo because it's, why are you taking that side of the philosophy side out? Is there anything to that? **Robert:** Jigorō Kanō never refers to Kano Jiu-Jitsu to my knowledge, but he was referred to by other people to Kano Jiu-Jitsu because everything was Jiu-Jitsu, so Kano was just another school out of many, but he does chant to Judo after a while because he didn't like the association with professional fights, the circus, fixed fights, so he wanted to move away from all that and create a means to educate the public. He could only do that by changing public perceptions, so that's why he tried to change the name, but there certainly is a lot to be said about Judo as a means of education. We'd go to a Judo school today and you see that. It's very different from a Jiu-Jitsu. Maybe that's one reason why Jiu-Jitsu is so appealing, it's so relaxed. The Brazilian culture, it's so chill and it's such a break from the normal life work. What does it work like? Deadlines, 9:00 to 5:00, your boss angry, hierarchy and can you go to the BJJ gym and your instructor's chill. He does this and he fist bumps and he gives you a hug. If you're late, he's not mad and he jokes around with you and you guys have dinner together afterwards. It's such a break. Maybe that's why it's popular, but at the same time with that, sometimes the values aren't there. IBJJF created a platform for the growth of BJJ in terms of hierarchy, belt system, rules, tournaments all that, but if there was a philosophy, what's the philosophy of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Who influenced BJJ philosophically? They try to make Carlos that person. Hélio tries to make her father that spiritual leader, but then you dig into the man's life this much, is he really a worthy spiritual leader? I don't think so. In her own biography, you can read it, what jumps is that he was not a wise man. If you read Choque and **\[unintelligible 01:26:19\]** It's a whole new ballgame. Even in her own biography what comes across is not a nobleman, so we're missing that. It's good and bad. You get the lack of philosophy, but you get a very happy environment with it. Brazilians are very happy people, but they're also very unorganized. These things you have to balance it out. **Sonny:** Yes, it's just funny, it's the good and the bad. I guess the yin-yang, which I guess is Taoism, which is Judo the way. I don't know what it all means, but as you've described and that feeling of getting on the mat's one thing I do know for sure is I love Jiu-Jitsu and at the moment, I'm missing doing it. No doubt about that. **Robert:** That's how I feel, man. That's how we all feel. I always give this as an example because to me, it's a very good argument in favor of the Gracie, the role of Carlos and Hélio. Have you ever heard of Peruvian Jiu-Jitsu? **Sonny:** I have not. **Robert:** Because it doesn't exist. You know why? Plenty of Japanese in Peru. It was like Brazil, half of Brazil was like Peru. The main destination for Japanese. Why? **Sonny:** No sure. **Robert:** I think that's where Carlos and Hélio come in. The Japanese migrated everywhere. It wasn't just Brazil. I think they played a role there. I think there's something to be said. I think it does say something about their force. **Robert:** I get your point. **Sonny:** Robson did something that's great. I love Robson's interviewing and it goes like this, "What would Maeda be without Carlos?" It's a very good question. Would you have heard of Maeda without Carlos? **Robert:** Maybe not. **Sonny:** In other words, it wasn't Maeda who created Carlos, it was Carlos who created Maeda. Maeda, in Robson's words, would be a legend of the Amazon without a man like Carlos Gracie to make them relevant because it's true, without him, who would have heard of Maeda today? He'd be a footnote in the annals of Judo history, he'd be a footnote. There were Japanese who were allegedly better than Maeda at that time. We haven't heard of them because they didn't have their Carlos Gracie, someone that would turn them into a mythological like creature. In one way or another, man, you can't deny their role. For better or for worse, it is what it is. **Sonny:** Yes, of course. No, I think that it's a great point of just, look, they did it. They're the ones who did it. They actually made it happen. They took that and spread it worldwide and created this massive, whatever you want to call, culture that spread all across the globe. They're the ones who put the rubber to the road and made things happen and that is fact. They can't take that away. **Robert:** Even though we've been accused of being pro- Gracie and anti-Gracie too, I've been accused of being pro-Fadda and-anti Fadda, I've been accused of being pro-Brazil and anti-Brazil, pro-US. It was never the intention. The intention was always to try to be accurate. Hopefully, people will enjoy it. It was a lot of work, a lot of our time. I do ask the community support. We did this for the BJJ community, so we really hope that they support and help spread the word. Our best means of educating people is organically. It's something that is word of mouth and people talk about it, so we're asking for everyone to help us the best they can. **Sonny:** I love it. I can't wait to see it as well. Just going through that history, I cover so many things that can be seen in society like the mythology and just how news is presented and how we latch on to things. You can see echoes of what's happening today is starting off in the past, it's a great way of looking at it. **Robert:** That was the goal. That was only the intention, but anyway, I really hope for you guys support it. We should be done by the end of our summer, your winter. We have our website closedguardfilm.com, you can subscribe to receive some of the news. When we're about to release, we're going to be reaching out to you guys. You can follow us on our Instagram page, closedguardthemovie.com, and check us out. Support, spread the word. We're trying to make this something for everyone. It's time we leave behind that linear simplistic approach to BJJ. **Sonny:** I love it. Robert, Mr. Drysdale, thank you so much for your time. It's been a great story, great share, and make sure all those links go in the show notes and I'll make sure to try and get the word out when the movie comes out. Thank you so much. I hope you've enjoyed it and maybe you can come back on in the future and we discuss your competitive career and all that stuff too. **Robert:** We'll do that. Maybe after this film is out, you can watch it, and then we can talk about it when it's out. **Sonny:** That sounds perfect. **Robert:** Okay? **Sonny:** Okay. Thanks, man, I appreciate it. **Robert:** You too. **Sonny:** Cheers. ![Robert Drysdale Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_drysdale_promo.jpg "tsbb_drysdale_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Lachlan Giles Interview On Optimising Lesson Structure & Self-Directed Learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/) **Published:** August 22, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Lachlan Giles Interview - BJJ Lesson Structure](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lachlan_giles_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Lachlan Giles BJJ › Sonny Brown")I talk to Lachlan Giles, where we discuss how his persistence over years of competition culminated in things coming together for him on the day to take out Bronze in the [ADCC 2019](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-news/adcc-2019-results "https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-news/adcc-2019-results") Absolute division. We also examine how he optimally narrowed his focus and training for that specific competition, the importance of self-directed learning and the value obtained from breaking down competition footage. Also, how some scientific principles might apply to Jiu-Jitsu [teaching methodology](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/ "The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts") and [lesson structure](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/ "John Will On Designing BJJ Lessons & Learning Jiu-Jitsu") with details of one attempted study he undertook. Finally, he considers a possible direction of where he sees the no-gi grappling game evolving. ## Listen To Lachlan Giles ### Listen to The Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://apple.co/2Qe30tl) - [Spotify](https://spoti.fi/34q3WTw) ## YouTube ## Topics ### Consistent goals and the Australian scene Lachlan recalls juggling physiotherapy studies, part-time work and limited high-level training partners. Rather than chase volume, he set small, measurable goals for every six-month block, such as sweeping a senior black-belt once per round or holding the back for thirty seconds in competition. Periodic trips to Thailand and California provided reality checks: rolling with world champions revealed precise technical gaps yet also showed that his best positions already worked at the highest level. Those glimpses of success, he says, kept motivation high during long stretches of “grinding in the corner of the planet”. ### Self-directed learning inside class In advanced sessions students start with a quick two-minute briefing, then choose the position they most need to improve. Partners begin from that scenario and roll live while coaches circle, offering bite-sized cues rather than full demonstrations. Lachlan argues that autonomy forces athletes to enter class with a written plan, turning every round into a targeted experiment rather than a random spar. For beginners he still uses a traditional lesson, but even they finish with position-specific rounds where they try to apply the day’s concept against light resistance. ### Making tape study a competitive edge Lachlan’s tape routine is systematic: select five high-level matches in a target position, watch each exchange at half speed, pause before the guard player moves, predict your own response, then observe what the elite athlete actually does. The difference becomes the technical cue to test in the next session. He keeps a spreadsheet of discoveries, noting date, opponent, success rate and adjustments required. Over time the sheet shows which ideas pass the live-sparring filter and which remain theoretical. He credits this habit with revealing the early K-guard entries that later powered his leg-lock anthology. ### Drilling, specific sparring and feedback loops Static drilling stays in his programme only until the mechanics feel smooth. Thereafter Lachlan switches to twenty-second bursts from the target position followed by immediate partner feedback. Athletes must articulate *why* an attempt failed, poor wedge, blocked grip, wrong angle, before the next rep begins. This rapid diagnose-adjust sequence turns hundreds of “mini failures” into technical gains within a single class. He reminds students that praising a partner’s escape is as valuable as celebrating a finish because it highlights details both can refine. ### Spaced-repetition syllabus design Absolute MMA cycles twelve core positions over eight weeks, then dedicates week nine to revision. The review week combines mini-tests (for instance, escape a fully locked triangle within ten seconds) with open Q&A. Lachlan says the schedule respects cognitive science while keeping the room fresh: students know neglected moves will resurface soon, preventing the boom-and-bust pattern common in gyms that park a topic for months. Online learners on his Submeta platform receive automated reminders that mirror the same timeline, turning the gym and digital content into a single cohesive system. ### Narrow focus for ADCC success When he decided to chase ADCC, Lachlan wrote a one-page document listing the three positions that most often decide no-gi matches under that rule-set: leg entanglements, body-lock passing and clinch wrestling. Every session during the final year addressed one of those areas, and every round began in a tournament-relevant starting point. He stuck the page to his laptop lid so that each time he wanted to close it early or skip conditioning, the goal stared back at him. The result was a bronze medal in the absolute division against opponents up to forty kilograms heavier. ## Key Takeaways - Self-directed learning works best when athletes arrive with a specific problem to solve. - Tape study becomes more useful when observations are tested immediately in live training. - Specific sparring creates fast feedback loops without requiring every round to become a full competitive roll. - Spaced repetition helps keep important positions active across a longer curriculum. - Narrowing training around the demands of a specific ruleset can make preparation more efficient. ## Resources #### QUOtes - “If you do not know why the sweep failed you cannot fix it, identify the reason, then try again.” - “Self-directed learning means arriving with a plan rather than waiting to be inspired.” - “Writing the goal on paper makes wrestling rounds happen when tiredness says pull guard.” - “Tape reveals moves the local room never will; test them before your partners catch on.” - “Hard rounds are a spice, not a staple, most training should build skill, not scar tissue.” #### Links - [Lachlan Giles Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lachlan_giles/) - ## Lachlan Giles Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Lachlan, thanks so much for being here today mate, how are you? **Lachlan Giles:** Good. How are you? Thanks for having me on. **Sonny:** My pleasure, mate. The honor is all mine, trust me. Obviously, everyone I think would be familiar with your recent success, bronze medal ADCC, going from strength to strength, really putting Australia on the map in terms of grappling. Obviously, we've had standouts before but it seems like a more cohesive unit coming out from Melbourne down there. My first question would be is, coming up in Australia around your time, the idea of getting to those levels that ADCC and competing on such international stage, would have seemed out of reach or at least, I would have thought that would have been the common perception that you got to go to Brazil or you got to go to America and that's where you're going to get your training. It couldn't be done by local guys in Australia. When did you feel that it might actually be possible or that you could overcome that or was that the perception that you had at one point? **Lachlan:** Yes, certainly. You have that dream of getting on the podium at a world level but to be honest, I didn't-- if you had ever asked me at any point, I probably would have said it's probably unlikely. I'm doing my best to improve but the chance of that happening is pretty slim. I had been on overseas training trips before and I'd seen the level. As always, in some ways, it could be a positive experience but also a negative. Sometimes you'd roll with one of the best guys in the world, you could roll with a world champion when you go on one of those trips. Sometimes, you'd be like, I could get a little bit of my game going for a moment, it was never pretty. I'm trying to think on my head. I don't think there was ever a time I rolled with a current top world champion and walked away like, "Yes, I beat them." I've never walked away with that feeling but you might. You get to your position you've been working and maybe off-balance them or something, you could come away with some little glimpses that part of what you're doing is heading in the right direction, but at the same time, usually, it's quite disheartening because at those training camps as well, everyone takes it very seriously. They'll be people, you could be a black belt. I've had times where I'm a black belt, I'm trying to prepare to compete at a world's, which is in two weeks time and I'll roll with a brown belt. I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if I would win in that match." We'd have a roll and I come away for that kind of "Jeez, that was really tough." In some ways, it's quite disheartening to just see the amount of people with the same goal as you who are putting in, what I'd say is a similar amount of effort. When you think of it like that, it is actually quite difficult. I feel like I'm part of it. I'd say actually, a good part of my success in ADCC was just on the day, I had my day and that's what everyone hopes that-- You want to be the best in the division where even on your worst day, you still win, but failing that, then you just want to have your day. \[laughs\] If you're not at that level, then you want to just have your day. I think at ADCC, I definitely, probably exceeded even my dreams of how well I could perform in a particular tournament. Yes, it's a mix. I do think along the way seeing people do well internationally, I think Keith was probably the first. I was a brown belt, he was a purple belt and he won the world purple belt. I was like, "Jeez, that's--" Because I would train with Keith. I just started training with him around that time and I was like, "Jeez, that's a pretty--" I knew he was tough from the training with him and I was brown and he was purple and he was beating me, but I felt like I was nipping at his heels a little bit, but he would stay. But I was like, Okay he's doing well and that's not too big of an ask for me to do well at the brown belt level and then that, obviously, his success continued. Anyway, we had other people like my wife, Liv, she won blue belt worlds so that gave me, "Okay, it's doable if we stick to the right strategy." Then, obviously, Craig in 2017, having his result. I think though I wasn't always looking at world championship level competition. At first, it was like, "Can I do well in Australia?" Or even can I do well in a smaller-- the Victorian championships or something? Once you achieve your goal, you tend to look a bit further, \[laughs\] you set some new goal-- you realign the goalposts and try to make a new goal. I never really with confidence said like, "Yes, I'm now at a level where I'm going to be a world champion", which I've seen all but yes. **Sonny:** You say, you had a good day at ADCC, obviously, that's correct, it would have been a good day. You have had a few good days in recent memory as well, that's probably not the only one. You've had a couple of good days, right? **Lachlan:** Over the last five years, I'd had some wins over some people who had done-- My first probably big win was against, I bet, Rani Yahya. No, I'm sure it was Edwin Najmi, Edwin Najmi was probably my first big win. That was in Australia, at BOA Super-8. Then that same year, he came second at worlds, that next worlds,that came around, I was like "Okay." That's the thing, it can be a one-off thing compared to a-- to win the worlds, you got to be consistently winning those matches, which I felt like I fumbled my way through that match and it just got through. There's a few of them along the way. Then in 2019, I felt like I had a very, very-- in the lead up to ADCC, I think I hadn't lost yet that year. I hadn't been competing every weekend or anything, I'd pick and choose my tournament that I was going in but I was feeling very confident in my style and what I wanted to do. There's definitely been a momentum and I was probably the most confident I'd felt about a tournament at an international stage before. **Sonny:** Yes, that's a good one to be feeling confident about. That's for sure. **Lachlan:** Yes, I certainly. As I said, confident but not to a silly degree. I think I tried to be realistic. I didn't think, yes, I'm going to win ADCC, but I thought I had a chance, give everything-- \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Best effort. **Lachlan:** Yes. **Sonny:** That makes sense. As you're building on those victories as you said, from Victorian, just growing and growing [setting the incremental goals,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) what did you think was the change that you needed to make or that you did make that enabled you to go to those next levels that other people weren't at that stage, really, really seeing through with that much consistency? **Lachlan:** You mean for 2019 compared to before that or-- **Sonny:** Yes. **Lachlan:** Probably my biggest strength is my consistency. I've been training for 17 years now, maybe even longer. I probably don't care that correctly. In the last 10 years, you could probably count on your hand the amount of times I've had more than a week off. It's usually like every day of the week, showing up training. I probably don't train more than a lot of the top athletes you hear of training like four or five hours a day. I definitely don't even do half of that usually but I am there every day and I'm thinking and trying to work through that. I think that was a big thing. At some point, I made the decision to focus on ADCC, that was probably even before the 2017 ADCC. I said, this is what I want to try to do well at, it's pretty hard to try to go well at ADCC and IBJJF No-Gi. They're almost separate the way you got to train for them and the skill sets you got to develop, I said, I'm going to focus on the ADCC thing. I put all my effort into that. Then there was probably two years of continual growth and that 2019 was probably where it really started to show. I've narrowed my focus. I think narrowing my focus helped a lot. **Sonny:** I like the sound of that, especially I remember you saying for your ADCC prep, you really just focused on [leg locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) and wrestling and I made sure to send that quote to all the guys I coach wrestling to be like, see guys. Take downs matter. **Lachlan:** To be honest, I do love training for ADCC because you have to be good everywhere. I do feel like in my division and IBJJF, you can almost forget about the stand-up thing. Like you can just pull guard and you just imagine that wrestling doesn't exist. Whereas in ADCC you can't ignore it. You have to develop that skill-set. Because if it goes to overtime, you don't know what you're going to lose. It forces you to do that and I enjoy the training. You feel like you're a bit more of a complete athlete, you have to know how to pass, how to play guard, how to wrestle, you have to know [leg locks,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) back takes, finishes, you include everything. That's one of the reasons I like it. **Sonny:** That's nice, beautiful. Nothing wrong with being a complete- have a complete [game in jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/). There's nothing wrong with that. When you're building up and focusing, you're narrowing your focus from there. I think before you mentioned that you saw the value in type study and that doing type analysis was a key moment for you when you started to do that. I'm a big fan of that myself obviously. Just wanted to get inside your thought process of what role that played and how you went about it. **Lachlan:** It's been huge. I think I made a few posts on Instagram or Facebook recently about things that have influenced my development along the time. I remember seeing Dan Lucot posted, he had this Roger Gracie breakdown that he had online on YouTube, where he talked through the techniques and then he'd show a clip of Roger using it, it showed that he got the inspiration for [teaching that technique](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) by watching Roger and breaking down what he was doing. He went through most of the Roger's game plan. He called himself Trump Dan, Dan Lucot. Actually another guy I was working with at the time of training with Dan Shaw, he was someone who was watching international competition. At the time I was just maybe watch the occasional MMA fight, but most of my jiu-jitsu, it was just based off whatever I'd see in the gym or what I'd seen on UFC or something. I'd try to just do that move. I think I spent a long time after watching Kazushi Sakuraba giving my back to try to get more people because it was my favorite MMA fighter. Once I caught onto the fact that you could watch international tape and see all these moves that I wasn't being exposed to at all at home, that was huge for me because then I was like, I could go look at what they're doing and then I'd try it in the gym and obviously first you suck at it, but also when you suck at it, but no one knows what you were even doing, then it can still work and that can build confidence really well. I was finding a lot of things that wouldn't take much practice before I could start hitting it a lot and against my training partners. Then you're kind of ahead of-- there's an arms race where they start trying to develop counters, but you're ahead of the arms race because you were watching the tape and seeing how the top guys are countering it. I followed that a lot and that's when I started playing, what I'd say is a more international style, like the Marcella Garcia style and the Mendez brothers and countless other influences depending what technique I was working. That was a huge factor in my development. Even now, I'm trying to work my wrestling. I'm studying a lot of tape of elite wrestling at the moment in my free time **Sonny:** Plenty of free time at the moment. I'm a big fan of breakdowns, obviously myself and for me, it was like all the other sports like NFL, you know that they go through tape after a game, just break it down, basketball, soccer, they all do it, but I have had some people suggest to me that jiu-jitsu, you got to feel it. You can't see what they're doing. You have to actually learn from, go to someone and feel what they're doing and that's the only way to actually learn a type value, studying types of limited use. What would you say to something like that? **Lachlan:** It's funny because if you look at any of those sports, soccer, football, rugby, all that, I feel like the technical portion is far less relevant than it is in as-- I feel like athleticism is a much bigger factor in those sports than it is in jiu-jitsu or in grappling. You're actually going to get more out of type analysis in a grappling sense than you would in a- like I can't even pick-- I used to play Australian rules football and I'm trying to picture how someone showing me a video of watching Australian rules football would really help me that much, that you can get an idea of like, Oh, they turn left or right but it's like, they shrug a tackle like this, but compared to the technical nuance you can pick up from studying a Jujitsu type, it's just like nothing. If they're finding it's working, if they're finding it valuable enough for those sports then surely it should be valuable for jiu-jitsu. I agree that sometimes you don't need to feel it, but sometimes you won't see what's going-- you won't be able to visualize or get a true sense of what that move feels like unless you have that person do it to you but that's not to say you can't. Sometimes if you've got a very keen eye for detail, you can still pick up those things. Maybe you won't maybe you get the general idea of the movement and then that helps you pick up when you- let's say I'm studying Leandra Lo and I'm trying to copy every move he does. I just like, I can't get his- I can't do his kneecap and then you get a chance to roll with him and he does it to you and you're like, Oh. You go like, “I could really feel this.” You try to do the things that people did to you when you tried his game, you try to do them on him just to frustrate him and you're like, “It didn't work.” Because you can actually have enough of a reference point to make the adaptation to learn his game better. Whereas if you never played his game and then he did it, you'd just be like, “He just beat me. I don't know why.” I think it's really important in grappling, to really pay attention to why things are or are not working. What's the key detail that you are missing or that happens so that you go for your sweep and it doesn't work, what grip are they doing that annoys you that no one else is doing that when you do sweep them. Because once you recognize that, you can start to strategize around it. **Sonny:** That makes sense. It's like, obviously it would be better if you could feel the moves that all the top guys are doing and that you want to study, but realistically, you're going to be able to get value from that type study no matter what, right? **Lachlan:** Yes. For sure. I think it's not just- when we say types there, you're not just watching people roll and trying to see who wins. It's not an entertainment thing. You're trying to put yourself in their shoes and go, what would I do here. If I was in that position, how would I be reacting? Why are they taking that grip because I would do something different then you can start? Once you realize what's different to what you would normally do, that's something you can then start trying to implement. **Sonny:** You mentioned then that the important of troubleshooting, and I would imagine that when you're coaching and trying to put that mindset onto the people you're coaching, the importance of being able to individually troubleshoot whatever they're having problems with. Is that something that you think you can teach people to be able to do? **Lachlan:** I'm trying-- to be honest, I'm trying to get better at making people self-directed learners which is not an easy-- teaching people how to learn as opposed to teaching them the moves is something I've more recently started trying to put a bit more focus on. I think you can do that. It's always hard with class times, but I have occasionally not recently because of corona, but pre corona, we'd sometimes finish a round or specific training round and then we'll be, "Okay, now you explain to your partner something they were doing that was frustrating to you and then they do the same for you." Just to get them to have a little discussion about what was frustrating and potentially how they could solve that problem as well. Which I think that's a contrived way to get people to do it but I think some people naturally do it and they're usually the ones that improve pretty quick. You see people, they go to open mat and they roll and then you see them sitting there workshopping things and they're usually the people that you know are going to improve quite fast. **Sonny:** That makes sense, people taking on their own responsibility for their learning, being able to self direct it. I think I've heard you mention that you'll even have classes where people will just be given the freedom to work on whatever it is they want to work on. Not so much in an open mat fashion but you'll help them out just whatever they want to work on. Is that correct? **Lachlan:** Yes, that's true. Self-directed learning is something that's come up in the research on how fast people learn quite a bit. If you let people self direct it, they're going to pick up things quicker as long as they're following the right path, I guess. With our prior sessions and with our advanced sessions. Our prior sessions are all, you work on whatever you want. I barely give any set thing like, okay, we're working from a double leg or single leg or whatever or from knee through pass. I'd almost always be-- whatever you want to start from, it's your five minutes, you go from there, that's what you're working on and then your partner gets five minutes starting from their position. That does force people to go home and come into the class with a plan or at least if they want to get more out of the class, they're going to come in like, okay, I'm working on this, this and this. They get a lot of reps in on that area. That's one thing we do. In our advanced classes, I will [teach a technique](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) in the advanced class but when it's time to drill, if you've got something that you want to work on, then feel free to do that. I don't really make them do the technique that I'm teaching. **Sonny:** Okay, that's interesting. You show a technique if people maybe want inspiration or an idea but if they want to do their own drilling, they're free-- you're not going to over there and whack them over the head with a kendo stick and tell them to get back on track. \[chuckles\] With your drilling, is there anything that you do different or that makes what you're doing unique? Obviously your friend Kit Dale was probably at least vocally saying that he wasn't drilling or something along those lines but what is it that you can do to improve on people's drilling that you think? **Lachlan:** Yes. It depends on the level the person has. It's very dependent on how confident you are and the technique you're doing. If it's a new movement-- if you don't feel confident with your movement, then I think you just want to get some reps in the movement. I think, at a certain point, the timing and the context for when to use the move become more of a factor and your success than the actual ability to execute the move when you need to more than the actual technical steps. That's where I feel like it has to shift from drills to specific training. Let's say you want to drill finishing your arm bar like , okay, you got a static opponent and you're just extending their arm 50 times. At a certain point, okay, you know how to extend their arm and finish an arm but that's going to have diminishing returns quite quickly but then having someone trying to fight out of the armbar at various stages will give you a much better feel for the context of as to when you should push the arm which way and so on. I feel like there's some in-between level of that, which is, I like the way wrestlers drill and I found I can do it well in wrestling but I can't do it well in jiu-jitsu. I don't know why. I just haven't found a way to be able to do this. You need a good drilling partner, I think, but in wrestling, you shoot and they'll defend and you transition and you keep-- your opponent will make you go through three or four transitions. They're going to let you take them down. They're not trying to completely stop you but they'll stop some of your attacks so that you have to work the timing and the context of when you would change between your moves and I found that really useful for wrestling. I find people are less good on the ground at giving correct feedback for that but I think you could do the same thing. **Sonny:** Yes, definitely. That was actually something I was talking to Brian Ebersole about. He was saying he would do for his, his making sure that defending a drill is making sure that it's five, six different ways to defend and then the person's gets all those different looks. I think that's definitely a big portion. **Lachlan:** I think an issue on the ground might be that there's a lot of static positions which you don't really have in wrestling or at least not as much. In wrestling, it's usually all dynamic. You come in and you try to finish. There's very little pause in between whereas if you were to say like, "I'm going to drill like that, you're on top and I'm on bottom and I'm going to try and sweep you." If you block one sweep, my answer might be to come back to a static position and just settle back to a position that I can just hold for a bit and reset my attacks but that doesn't make for very good flow drill. You've blocked my attack and I come back whereas, in wrestling, it would be like, you just keep driving until eventually you find something. I'm still playing around with ways to use that best in grappling jiu-jitsu format. **Sonny:** Yes. I understand. I know you are aware of Preet Mickelson and his work. I actually checked him out on some recommendation, I think \[crosstalk\] . The conversation I had with him was a lot about switching how we try and present in jiu-jitsuto a sport rather than an art as how it's been taught previously and that wrestling has had that benefit of just being around for a lot longer. I wonder if that's the thing that you're discussing now about just trying to figure out the way to make that transition and what are some of those things then from sports science that you are looking to bring in? **Lachlan:** Yes. That's a good question. \[laughs\] I think a lot of it has to do with taking a step back and defining your goals and what you're wanting to achieve. That's what I did with ADCC. I felt that made a huge difference. Just stepping back and going like, what do I want to do? I want to win ADCC. What does it take? What does someone who wins ADCC do? What's their skill set? Work on that. Okay, like wrestling, leg locks. At least for me. You can make it very specific to yourself. For me, what would it take to take the 2017 Lachlan Giles and then get into 2019 and try to win ADCC? What changes are required? Let's just put all our effort on that. Don't waste your time doing other things. That's how I approached it and that made a big difference. I think there's that. I think from my own training, I feel like I apply a lot of things pretty well. What I find is hard as a coach to teach to a group a sport that is often best practice on an individual level. As in I feel self-directed learning and what techniques you should be working on and whether you need to be doing more rolling or drilling and so on is very dependent on the person and then everyone comes together in one class. How do you make each individual person get the most out of the class when they're all requiring different things at that time? That's actually probably my biggest question at the moment, is how to maximize the use of class time for students. I think it's easier that one of the best things you could do is divide it by experience because then that takes care of the how much time should you spend drilling, specific training enrollment because I think that the more experience you get, the more time doing those less things and the earlier on the more time spent drilling. It's easier for the early on, you can do a fundamentals class and teach the foundation or positions. Everyone's going to get something out of that by going to these classes. Whereas, for the advanced people, they need probably their specific game. Separating classes based on experience is, I think, is a big thing. I'm trying to implement some of the [learning principles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) like space repetition. I wrote out a syllabus and whatever we cover, we'll teach it and teach it in detail and then we just refresh it again just for a week. We might spend a week on it and then we'll do a revision week eight weeks later which covers everything we did in the last eight weeks just in one week just to bring that back in the brain. It's things like that I'm trying to implement. I wouldn't say I got it perfect yet but it's something I'm working on. I don't know what else to do. **Sonny:** That's all right. Yes, space repetition, that was a big thing in sports. It's good that you're trying to implement that into jiu-jitsu. I like the way you've just said then of condensing the eight weeks and put it down into the week as a refresher. That's a good, rough way for people to go in. As for what else you can do, I remember you doing a Brazilian Jujitsu learning study in your own gym based on, I think, it was rites of completion or successful trials of techniques. Are you able to talk about that? How that went? **Lachlan:** Yes, I'll get into that. I didn't get enough useful data out of that. I think I've got a better way to measure it now which I'll try to look at next time. I wanted to make a study to see whether working one thing, focusing on one topic for a few lessons in a row and then changing to another topic for a few lessons in a row and then changing to another topic, whether that would be a better way to learn than a more random-- I do one one day, another one the next day. Within the session. Within the one session, you're working the three different techniques and all positions. We took data at the start. The group was in the middle and you line up. Whoever you go against, you either win or you lose. You start from your position and you win or you lose. Then you'd come back and you'd write that on a spreadsheet, win or loss. **Sonny:** Or learn. **Lachlan:** Or learn, yes. We got that data from the start, from the first week to the last week of it. Did people learn better from working everything at once or blocked? It's somewhat of a blocked versus random training study to a certain degree but we didn't get enough. One thing I found was tough was with a structure like that, with the random training was you might have three positions you're working but maybe even in a 15-minute period, you might only get six gos overall. You're only getting two attempts at the thing that you do. I feel like something full learning is you want to understand what is going wrong and give yourself a chance to try to correct it. I don't know if this is being shown in sports but I feel like that's a process you want to go through. If you shoot a basketball, you want to know that it did or didn't go in the hoop then you make your adjustment based on that and shoot it again. Okay, that was better so now you get some reinforcement for that behavior. Maybe you don't have to do that a hundred times but you at least want to be able to do that, I think. Getting just two attempts at your technique you're trying in the whole session of each one might not be enough to actually-- At least it's a strong improvement. I think the research would support a random style of training like mixing things up but I think sometimes when it's so complex and you're getting so few things, I just don't know how well that applies to jiu-jitsu. If you can get someone to shoot a basketball 50 times in a row then mixing it up and making them have to focus on different aspects of it, it probably helps more. I don't know in jiu-jitsu. That's what I wanted to find out. One of the issues was the era in the measurements from who you are rolling with had too big of a factor on the outcome. If you come out from the front of the line and then you got a black belt, you could have improved massively at your technique but you're going to lose. It ends with being a lot of variability and you'd need huge amount of data. I had to meet 50 people that did study but we would have needed, I think, 300, we would have needed to actually get to look for some sort of effect that I was after. What I was thinking instead was to take a more specific thing and such as guard retention or something and measure the time-- if you get people to write down the time that they were playing guard or how many times they got-- You did a 10-minute period, you have 10 minutes, you're on your back. If you get passed then it doesn't matter if the person goes to the end of the line but measure the amount of times you got passed in a 10-minute period or something. That might be a little bit better but I'll look into that again further. I want to get into some more research side of things but, obviously, after ADCC, I've been travelling and doing a lot of seminars and so on. **Sonny:** Living the life. **Lachlan:** Yes. Not anymore. **Sonny:** Yes, no one is but it's been good. I think there are all those, I guess, unique challenges in Brazilian jiu-jitsuof grappling that and maybe those other sports don't have. Spaced repetition, we talked about. Any other elements that you've heard about that you might want to look into or give some pointers to people to maybe start their own research on? **Lachlan:** In my opinion, one of the biggest things in grappling is that you need to identify what the problem is. I'm going to use a basketball analogy again but this is how I see it. Imagine you shoot a basketball. Maybe you're blindfolded or you can see the ring, you shoot but then as you shoot, they cover your eyes and you don't even know-- Someone might tell you, they say it missed. That you missed the basketball shot but they don't tell you whether it was too shallow, too deep, too much to the left or to the right. It would be so hard to improve your basketball shot without knowing what you needed. Essentially, knowing what you need to do to get better. Like, I need to shoot it with a bit more force or less force or a little to the left, to the right. Once you know that, you can be more accurate with your shots but I think in something as complex as grappling, most of the time, you go for a move, it doesn't work and you don't know what you could have done to actually fix it. I think that's an essential part of grappling that is different to a lot of the sports that get researched. In just where in the other sport I can think of, it would be pretty easy to tell them in a case of an error, what they needed to do to fix it. In jiu-jitsu, it's actually really difficult. **Sonny:** Right. I hear you. Just being able to increase that level of feedbacking between rolling partners. Let's say, if someone tells you it was a crank not a choke, then stop them and find out why. Is that about right? **Lachlan:** It's may be not based on sports science but it's just my feelings towards what I think is a huge factor in improving. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I think a lot of the stuff that we've talked about, maybe it's geared towards maximizing the time spent training for a competition and effectiveness. How do you then balance that out for just the hobbyist people coming into your gym, keeping it fun. Would they have been keen to fill out surveys on how their success rates and whatnot? How do you work that divide between the [competition team](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/) and just your people wanting to get fit and have a bit of fun? **Lachlan:** That's a tough one. People were quite interested in the study so they actually-- A good amount of people joined up for that study. I heard that something else which failed was, I tried to get everyone to fill out a spreadsheet just with their goals and like, okay what are you aiming for? This was actually for our pro team. but like, what are your goals and what do you need to improve to get there? That wasn't followed and people tended to be less active in that which is fine. Some people are doing that themselves at least in their own head but a lot of people aren't and just going through the process is a very beneficial thing to do. Even just to write it down and go, okay, this is where I want to go, this is what I got to do. That means that on your day when you come into the gym tired, you've committed to working on the skill set you need because for example, wrestling's the perfect example for this because we've got so many people that say they want to do ADCC and then they come in and they're tired and sore. What's the one thing they won't work? Wrestling because it's hard. I'll be the same unless I-- When I've got ADCC coming up, I can be like, okay, it's coming up, I need to do this. I'll force myself to do it but I definitely rather just pull guard and do the more lazy approach, but that's not what you need. That's not what I need to achieve my goal. Having it written down and going, okay, well, today, I'm doing my single-leg take-down defense, then that's what I'm going to do. It makes a big difference. **Sonny:** That's just definitely the power of writing down your goals for sure. I wonder did you write down your ADCC goal? Was that written down in a notebook somewhere that you'd go back and look at? **Lachlan:** I probably wouldn't have a physical-- It was-- Yes. \[crosstalk\] Did I write-- Maybe. I'm trying to think. It would have been-- We were writing down a weekly plan and trying to focus that. It can be hard to say, for the next eight weeks, I'm going to work this position or whatever or next four weeks because sometimes you feel like you didn't get enough of it. Like you need to do more of it by the end of that time or you might feel like after two weeks of doing it, that you're actually feeling quite comfortable and there's something else that's got more importance, but at least-- It's better to write it down and then change it if need be, than not do anything at all. **Sonny:** Then for your competition side, you had that consistency and that ability to stay in that competitive space for a long time until you got success. What would your advice be for the novice who just wants to just pick up a sport and stay in the sport for a long time? Let's say they get their blue belt and maybe they're thinking about, "I've done enough," for some reason, and they don't want to come back. What would your advice be to someone like that to help keep them actually in the sport? **Lachlan:** They have to work out what they're doing it for. If their goal was to get a blue belt and quit, then I don't know if there's anything I could say that would change that. **Sonny:** Goal achieved. Done. **Lachlan:** Yes. If your goal is to have something to keep you fit and keep your mind engaged and something you-- The main thing should be you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, if you're going there, you don't enjoy it, but you want to get your blue belt then don't even bother getting your-- I suppose it's probably still good. It's still probably good to get your-- If you don't enjoy it, I still think it's a useful thing to practice for the self-defense point of view, I suppose for a certain point in time maybe to a blue belt then quit but if you enjoy-- Find a way to enjoy it, find good training partners that you enjoy rolling with or maybe who make you think and do that. Roll at a pace where you're not going to get injured. **Sonny:** In terms of different training partners who will make you think and probably change your game, going back to the competition when you're competing in Open Weight and you're going against all these different competitive styles, especially from people in your own weight division to the giants in Open Weight, how are your setups changing and your attacks changing? Did you just have the same game or did you say, okay, once I get past x kilograms, then I'm switching things up. **Lachlan:** Yes, I had two main areas I was trying to set my leg-locks up from and one was that De La Riva and K-Guard and the other was from reverse De La Riva, which has a bit of a closer range. In my weight division, for whatever reason, just stylistically I thought it would be better against my opponent, which was Lucas Lepri. I thought, the reverse De La Riva thing might catch him off guard. I just had a different entry that I thought he might not have seen, but that was my undoing. But in the Open Weight, I feel I want to keep a bit more distance so De la Riva-- Something that just keeps both feet in front of my opponent and most of the time is what I wanted to work with. Just a slight more distance-based guard and that seemed to work well. I was already practicing that style the whole training camp, anyway. I wasn't particularly trying to get ready for big people. That just happened, but it was probably good that my style was strongly influenced by the Miyao brothers who were quite small. I figured whatever they're doing probably works. Most of the people they roll are probably bigger than them. Whatever they're doing works, scales up. **Sonny:** That's fair enough. You want to get that skill set that will go across weights. With the big guys, probably the biggest in one way or another would be Gordon Ryan. What's happening with him at the moment? At the moment, obviously, nothing but there was that talk of the match and he was putting that stuff out there. What's happening with that? Do you think that'll ever come to fruition? **Lachlan:** I don't think he ever really wanted to do that match. At least not for that price. He put an offer of 500,000 dollars on a legal battle compared to my 5,000 which of course I was happy to do, but then I said yes and then he started putting all these stipulations in about I have to fight x and y with three other people within a year or something which wouldn't have happened with corona probably anyway so there you go. I wouldn't have got my 500,000. You know Gordon, he'll say anything. **Sonny:** Just a bitter blaster. **Lachlan:** Since everyone's been locked inside, he certainly unleashed-- He's furious \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** A bit of cabin fever fear. **Lachlan:** Yes. **Sonny:** When things finally, we get back out on the mats, we get going what do you think will be the next evolution in No-Gi grappling that people should be maybe looking forward to and thinking ahead? Where do you think the game is going to go? **Lachlan:** I think that very much depends on the rule set. In ADCC, the wrestling is going to be a huge determining factor in a lot of matches. If you're preparing for ADCC and you're not wrestling then I don't know what you're doing. That's going to be a huge factor. Everything else will be there. The sport's evolving, so we'll get sharper with our leg-locks, sharper with our passing guard, front headlock. It's hard to say what-- If I knew where the evolution was going to occur, what's a new tactic or something, then I would be doing that already. I see some patterns. I see certain people favoring some positions now. We're talking about Gordon. I know Gordon's playing a very seated guard, almost trying to wrestle up from a seated guard, which works for him. I can see that being valuable. That used to be more my style. I used to play a lot more forward pressure. It's a much more risky style. Your chance of being front headlocked Kamurad or under-hooked, it's higher risk, higher reward. I personally see what the Miayos are doing and the K-Guard has been the other reaction which is to play more off your back and try to get into [leg entanglements](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). That's the avenue that my direction is going and I see more and more of that in No-Gi because it's hard to play standard De La Riva and those Gi-based guards but the K-guard still lets you work in on those positions. That's my guard evolution, is working to there for passing, I don't know, body lock, but that's not exactly new. Body lock is certainly common No-Gi. Everyone's is getting better at back takes, I think they're realizing that to score points if you've got wrestling, you also need to be able to take the back because your opponent's probably going to turtle and try to escape. You talked to Preet, I do think a better defensive back game will surface to a degree. It's a hard one for me because I have success but sometimes you go against someone like a Craig or something and I really don't feel like turning my back at all is a good idea. Some of those people who are very good at taking the back, I just feel like turning your back and trying to fight off the back can be a landmine. **Sonny:** You're giving them what they want. **Lachlan:** Exactly. **Sonny:** They want you to stay pinned. **Lachlan:** At the moment, my thoughts are only when it's a choice between me losing points and turning my back and risking, I'll turn my back but otherwise, I'm not going to try to fight a defensive back battle proactively. In terms of what the next evolution is wrestling and-- **Sonny:** Wrestling? **Lachlan:** Yes, potentially some better ways of setting up submissions from standing. That's not something I'm particularly looking into, but that could be someone who's-- **Sonny:** Just chaining that wrestling into submissions? **Lachlan:** Yes. I think now that you've a rule set like ADCC where people are going to be willing to engage the stand-up battle, you then might see some opportunities to set up submissions from the standing position, which you wouldn't have seen in IBJJF because people just pull guard so now there's more opportunity for something like that. **Sonny:** I like it. That's going to give me something to go think about and work on more standing submissions. That's going to be a good little way to end that, I think, just a little of advice for people to go off and research themselves. I really appreciate the time you've given me today. **Lachlan:** No, I think you had some really good questions. **Sonny:** Oh, thanks. I appreciate that feedback. We're talking about important feedback. **Lachlan:** Yes, that's right. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] Thank you very much. Of course, you also did mention that the body lock could be a big thing and you've got the body lock instruction if you want to get it. **Lachlan:** Just a \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** That's it. What are the other ones that people can get and how should they get in contact with you if they want to? **Lachlan:** Through BJJ Fanatics, I have instructionals on half guard, front headlock series, about one and a half guard passing. I've got the body lock pass and I've got the leg lock anthology as well. There's those five and then on grapplers guide, I've got something on butterfly guard and on the equivalent to guard retention but on top, which is sweetp prevention. When you get stuck in all different types of guards, how do you actually maintain your base and get back to neutral position without getting swept or submitted. It's a topic I thought hadn't really been covered. If you go on the BJJ Fanatics, you could use my code, lachlan10 that says 10% and if you go to grapplers guide that's got a whole bunch of, not just me, there's a whole bunch of other experts that have on different topics and I want you to use a Lachlan, that say a 30%. **Sonny:** Nice, beautiful. I'll put that in the links and show notes and people can follow through there and I think that'll be offered. For now, you've got to go to class. You got a zoom class so-- **Lachlan:** Yes, a zoom class coming up. **Sonny:** I'll let you go get prepped up and everything for that. Thanks so much for the time again, and have a great evening. **Lachlan:** You too, cheers. **Sonny:** Thanks, Lachlan. ## Lachlan Giles interview Resources ### Lachlan Giles Links - [Lachlan Giles Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lachlan_giles/ "Lachlan Giles Instagram") - [Lachlan Giles BJJ Heroes](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/lachlan-giles "Lachlan Giles BJJ Heroes") - [Lachlan Giles BJJ Fanatics](https://bjjfanatics.com/blogs/fighters/lachlan-giles "Lachlan Giles BJJ Fanatics") - [Lachlan Giles On The Reverse Classroom & Jiu-Jitsu Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/ "Lachlan Giles On The Reverse Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu & BJJ Skill Acquisition") ![Lachlan Giles BJJ Interview - Self Directed Learning For BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/giles_tsbb_promo2-1024x1024.jpg "giles_tsbb_promo2 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Rob Biernacki On Pedagogy, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) **Published:** August 27, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Rob Biernacki On BJJ Concepts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/rob_biernacki_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Rob Biernacki BJJ › Sonny Brown")I talk to Rob Biernacki, Head Instructor at Island Top Team and owner of [BJJ Concepts](https://www.bjjconcepts.net "BJJ Concepts"). We talk about Rob’s gamification teaching strategy, how being isolated has helped him develop his unique style, how he structures his classes, and how he decided on his current curriculum. What would Rob change about the BJJ culture? Hear his thoughts on the idea of time-based black belts versus merit-based black belts, getting the best results, getting people to keep coming back for more, and get Rob’s rant on conspiracy theories. Table Of Contents 1. [Listen To Rob Biernacki](#listen-to-rob-biernacki) 2. [Podcast Timestamps](#podcast-timestamps) 3. [Key Topics](#key-topics) 4. [Key Takeaways](#key-takeaways) 5. [Interview Transcript](#interview-transcript) 6. [Rob Biernacki Resources](#rob-biernacki-resources) ## Listen To Rob Biernacki ### YouTube ## Podcast Timestamps \[00:00\] - Introduction to Episode 023. \[02:07\] - Rob’s Background in Jiu-Jitsu. \[08:22\] - How Has Isolation Helped Develop His Own Style? \[13:21\] - Rob Biernacki’s Curriculum. \[24:37\] - Gamification for Jiu-Jitsu. \[30:45\] - Structuring Jiu-Jitsu Classes. \[38:44\] - Getting the Best Results. \[44:10\] - How to Get People to Keep Coming Back. \[55:23\] - What Would Rob Biernacki Change? \[71:46\] - Merit-Based Versus Time-Based Black Belt. \[83:27\] - The Proliferation of Conspiracy Theories in Jiu-Jitsu. ## Key Topics ### Concepts instead of collecting techniques Rob explains why simply accumulating more moves did not solve his problems as a grappler. His teaching shifted toward universal concepts such as alignment, base, posture and structure that help students understand why techniques work. ### Gamification and focused live practice The conversation covers Rob’s use of games and constrained rounds to isolate smaller battles inside Jiu-Jitsu. The aim is to give students more meaningful repetitions with feedback rather than relying on passive drilling. ### Curriculum and class structure Rob discusses how he organises material, balances technical detail with conceptual understanding and structures classes to maximise actual learning time. ### Retention, standards and Jiu-Jitsu culture The episode also looks at how academies can keep students engaged without lowering standards, along with Rob’s views on merit-based promotion, critical thinking and some broader cultural problems inside Jiu-Jitsu. ## Key Takeaways - Conceptual understanding can make technical knowledge easier to organise and transfer. - Games and constrained rounds increase the amount of useful live feedback students receive. - Curriculum design should be judged by what students learn, not how much information a coach can present. - Good academy culture can support both retention and high standards. ## Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Good day, Rob, how are you today, mate? **Rob Biernacki:** I'm doing awesome. **Sonny:** Excellent. Excellent. Now, we're a big fan of your work. I see you online with your YouTube or when doing a lot of work with Stephan Kesting and you're very vocal in some other podcasts that I've heard with [BJJ Mental Models](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bjj-mental-models-of-blading-tempo-establishing-offensive-cycles-with-matt-kwan/ "BJJ Mental Models of Blading, Tempo & Establishing Offensive Cycles With Matt Kwan"). I've got some strong opinions that I quite enjoy listening to. I've reached out to get in touch just to have a chat about basically what some of your thoughts are on teaching, and learning, and different styles of pedagogy within Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Just wondering maybe we can just start with, what was your background in learning Jiu-Jitsu, and how were you taught? ### Rob’s Background in Jiu-JitsU **Rob:** My background was a little bit disparate in that I was living in Toronto, Canada. I was training with-- I had a friend at the time who was a- he was still a brown belt when I started really training with him. I started training, I guess, around 2002, but as part of overall MMA training. I was not a dedicated Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy. As I said, I had a friend who was a brown belt. I trained at his gym maybe once or twice a week. I did a lot of No-Gi rolling at MMA clubs, that kind of stuff. Then I started getting a little more dedicated to the Jiu-Jitsu aspect of MMA when I started going down to American Top Team, which is probably around 2004. My coach was Charles McCarthy at American Top Team, but I wasn't there all the time. I would go down a few weeks at a time. Then that became a few months at a time, probably around 2010 until I got my black belt in 2012. Because I was, to a certain degree, left to my own devices, I cobbled together a bunch of different things. I went through a pretty long phase of being the move chaser guy. In other words, if I lost a roll, the reason had to be that I didn't know enough moves. If I got arm barred, it meant I didn't know enough armbar escapes. If I couldn't submit someone, it meant I didn't know enough submissions. I kept going down this rabbit hole of learning 10th planet and then learning leg locks and learning this and learning that and just trying to amass moves. It didn't matter how many moves I amassed. I would always get smashed by good guys. It was really weird-- I was the guy who would annihilate people who were even a little bit worse than me, but I would get totally destroyed by people who were a little bit better than me. It's like there was no in-between. If somebody had good positional Jiu-Jitsu, they would be able to handle me unless they had a deficiency in their leg lock defence, and I could catch them with that. Then if somebody was not as good as I was at the positional stuff, then I can just catch them all over the place, but it's almost like I never had competitive roles. I was either kicking someone's ass, I was getting my ass kicked and it's just because I didn't have a proper understanding of what I now really try to promulgate, which is a fundamental conceptual understanding of alignment base, partial strike, all this stuff I preach, which I was exposed to in, I would say, the best presentation of it that I was exposed to was from Ryan Hall because he was the first guy that spoke my language, spoke the language of physics, of biomechanics, and of comical nerd references in his instructionals, that kind of stuff. That was somebody that I really looked up to once I was exposed to his work. My training ended up being training with a lot of different people and then focusing exclusively on the Gi around 2010. I left leg locks completely alone and just did a lot of Gi training. Really didn't start back up. I got my black belt in 2012 and then I didn't really roll No-Gi for probably, I want to say, about three years. Then I started getting back into No-Gi. I did a competition in Portland and I started doing some No-Gi training for that. I won a match via heel hook and then I lost in the finals via heel hook. I was like, "Man, I'm never the guy who's the worst leg locker in an exchange," but that was from five years ago. That's when I went out and I trained with Eddie Cummings and I got caught up on the leg lock game. Now, people probably know me more as a No-Gi [leg lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/leg-locking-in-the-mma-meta-elegant-leg-entanglements-for-vale-tudo-with-robert-degle/ "Leg Locking in the MMA Meta & Elegant Leg Entanglements for Vale Tudo With Robert Degle") guy, but for a little while there, I was just Gi only and very focused on fundamental conceptually sound positional Ju-Jitsu. I'm a mix of those two approaches. Then as far as my teaching approach, the pretentious word for it is I'm an autodidact, which is, I'm largely self-taught. Prior to opening my club which took away all my free time, I used to read probably a couple of books a week, all nonfiction, mostly science, and I tried to stay as abreast as I could of developments in cognitive science, anything related to sports, and training, and stuff like that. I'm not as up on it as I used to be, but luckily, I have one of my black belts now who is doing the same thing I used to do and just reading up on it. At our Academy between my previous research into it and my black belt, his name's Callum McDonald, his current research into it. We try to keep evolving our pedagogy systems to reflect the state of the [art in cognitive learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/) strategies. **Sonny:** Beautiful. You mentioned Ryan Hall there early on in the piece. Was he someone you'd worked with personally, or was that just the influence of his--? **Rob:** Yes. I travelled after-- No, not after. Before I got my black belt, I travelled around for a little bit. I was at Ryan Hall's Academy for a couple of weeks, and I was at Marcello Garcia's for a couple of weeks. Then after that, I travelled around and trained with a few other people. I'm a pretty prolific travel-to-train guy. There are certainly some people that I want to train with that I haven't had a chance to yet, but the list of people that I wanted to train with and then got to train with. That bucket list is getting increasingly filled. I was very fortunate to get to train with him, not extensively or anything, but definitely something I wanted to do. **Sonny:** Nice. You're out there at Vancouver Island. I believe you previously referred to it as the New Zealand of Canada. **Rob:** Of Canada. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I'm wondering because you've evolved into your own direction, even though I believe you're associated or affiliated with Caio Terra at the moment. **Rob:** Yes. We're a Caio Terra affiliate. ### How Has Isolation Helped To Develop His Own Style? **Sonny:** But you've certainly got your own style that seems to be pretty unique to what you're doing. How much would you say that being isolated where you are has enabled you to be able to develop that? **Rob:** I think it's been a significant contribution. One of the formative bits of information that I got prior to opening my school was I saw an interview with, I want to say it was Jorge Gracie, and he was describing his thought process when he had moved to England basically as far as what he was looking to do in his Ju-Jitsu career and how he was able to achieve such incredible feats without being surrounded by really high-level training partners. I basically just stole his approach, which is to take every student that I can that develops an aptitude or an interest in a particular game, and try to maximize that particular student in that particular games that I would have a variety of training partners that were challenging, even if the overall role might not be challenging against a blue belt. If I could make that blue belt a brown belt in one position, then I could battle them in that position. What that forced me to do is become as educated as possible in these different positions that I wanted to teach. I would seek out whether it was in travelling and training with somebody, or online, or DVD, whatever. Any kind of resources I could find that allowed me to model the best practices of the best practitioners at a particular guard, or submission, or whatever, and then I'd teach all this stuff that I was learning to my students once I felt comfortable enough to convey the information. There's a difference between what I feel comfortable teaching to a class and what I feel comfortable giving to one person who's working on something. My philosophy is I won't teach something, let's say, publicly until I've personally been working on it for about a year. I don't like taking information that is still in development for me and teaching it. There would be things that I wouldn't teach in the general class, but that I was working on. I would take a student aside and do a private training session, like a drilling session just for my sake, where I was using them as a training partner. I would say, "I want to work on this and I want you to give me these responses." Then I would try to coach them through it. I took that Jorge Gracie approach of try to make different people as good as possible at different things, and so that created an ongoing process for me of, "I want to get good at this guard," "Okay, now we're going to get good at this, now we're going to get good at that." I would say that as far as my ability to teach different positions, there aren't too many positions in Jiu-Jitsu that I don't feel comfortable teaching at this point. Because it was just like, "I'm not awesome at them, and I'm not saying that I can play all these positions extremely well, but at the same where my wrestling knowledge is pretty good." My actual wrestling is garbage like I'm a shitty wrestler, but I've trained like at American Top Team, I trained with some really elite-level wrestlers, and I train now with Yuri Simoes. Anytime he's getting ready for ADCC, I've been part of his camps for the last three years, so I've had access to him. I think he's easily one of the best wrestlers in Jiu-Jitsu, and so I've got to sit it on training sessions with him and his wrestling coach who's amazing. I've got a really good level of wrestling information that I might not be able to personally execute because I'm in my 40s and can't put the time into getting good at it, so it's the same thing with something like I'm not great at playing spider guard, but I can teach it pretty well, so I think that the geographic isolation forced me to become as diverse as possible in my information sets that I could pass on to students with the goal of making them exceptional training partners. ### Rob Biernacki’s Curriculum **Sonny:** Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Then with the way that then you decided to present that information to your students to build them up in the different areas, did that mean that from the get-go, you were looking at changing how you were teaching your students as opposed to how you would be taught yourself? **Rob:** Yes, very much so. Prior to launching my club, I tried to sit down and design a curriculum, but not a curriculum in the sense that most people think of it. When most people think of a curriculum, they might think of the Gracie Barra curriculum or the 10th Planet curriculum where it's like, "Here are these moves that we do, and we drill these moves and on this week we're working on these moves, and the next week we're going to--." I really wasn't trying to do that, although I did create modules that are based on positions. The first thing when I was creating our pedagogy system was I wanted to have the ability to focus people on a position for about a month. Every month we would do a module, and that module might be a specific guard, it might be a passing a format, it might be a submission control position, but everything had to be grounded in the fundamental concepts that I teach which are basically an expansion of the concepts that I got from Ryan Hall. The idea of focusing on base posture structure, frames and levers, and then adding in the emphasis on wedges after training with Eddie Cummings, that kind of stuff. That was the foundation of it was, A, have concepts that become entrenched so that people can solve problems when they arise that aren't pre-programmed. One thing I don't believe in and I think there will probably be some overlap and what I'm saying between what School of Grappling-- I don't know the guy's actual name but-- **Sonny:** Andy. **Rob:** Andy, there you go. What Andy-- **Sonny:** He's a good guy. **Rob:** Yes. For anybody who is watching this or listening who isn't exposed to Andy's work, @schoolofgrappling on Instagram, [schoolofgrappling.com](http://schoolofgrappling.com "schoolofgrappling.com"), I think is his website- **Sonny:** Yes. **Rob:** -just awesome stuff. **Sonny:** Phenomenal. **Rob:** Like somebody who echoes a lot of the same ideas that I have about training, although he's quite a bit more wrestling-based in terms of his techniques. **Sonny:** Yes, Judo background, but now he's all focused on wrestling. **Rob:** Yes. He puts a lot of material out about this idea, he calls it [training the grey areas and focusing on skills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) rather than techniques. I use maybe slightly different terminology, but if I could draw in comparison to our fuck your Jiu-Jitsu drills, which are all based around-- I know when you had Rory on, he explained fuck your Jiu-Jitsu, but those drills are all based around the idea of giving people problems to solve and gamifying the process of solving those problems and then putting them in positions to work on skill sets that are usually considered intangibles in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which I think is really wrong. Again, I'm not trying to like throw anybody under the bus, but the way that we teach people in Jiu-Jitsu is so just-- it's ass backwards because all the high-level competitors, they develop these skills that-- Again, most people think are intangible, it's like guard retention. Most people at most academies that don't compete have garbage guard retention, regardless of the belt. I noticed that in my travels to different schools, it's like I would roll with a blue belt who competed a lot, and I'd have a really hard time passing the guy's guard, and then I'd roll with a black belt who never competed and I would run through this guy's guard. One of the things I used to do a lot in my own training was I would do what we call no hands guard, so I'd stick my hands in my belt and just defend my guard with my legs, so I had a guard that was pretty tough to pass. Again I would roll with brown belts, black belts, who couldn't come close to passing my guard without my hands. That shouldn't be a thing. Then I would roll with a good tough purple belt competitor and if I tried the no hands guard thing the dude would smash my guard. The underlying theme seemed to be that every good competitor has these subsets of skills that they get very good at, and guard retention is one of them. Passing is another. Being difficult to sweep is another one. When I was developing the fuck your Jiu-Jitsu drilling system, that's what I emphasized-- Oh, and sweeping too, like being good at chaining sweeps together, the same way that wrestlers are so good at chaining takedowns together. When you go up against the guy who's an active competitor, if he goes for a sweep and you shut that sweep down because you know the counter, he'll just go to another thing and another thing, another thing and then you're on your butt. Those are the things that I emphasized is developing an ability to connect different sweeping movements together, regardless of what guard you play. There are subsets of sweeping, like chambering someone's leg on your shoulder for X guard. That's something that you can do regardless of whether you play X guard, regardless of whether you do the classic X guard technical standup sweep or not. That's just a single leg done in a different way. Getting people good at iterations of those movements is what I was trying to achieve and that's where fuck your Jiu-Jitsu was born, and then the gamifying of it was also born from just doing-- one just personal experience and understanding how people roll, and then again watching guys. I've watched Ryan Hall roll quite a bit when I was at his school. I would come in for a class and I would do the class and often he would show up. If I did the noon class or the 11:00 AM class, I don't remember but like the earlier class, he didn't teach that class, he taught the evening class, but he would come in, and after that class was done, he would roll with Saff or whoever was there and I would just stay and watch him roll as much as I-- to the extent that hopefully didn't make him feel uncomfortable. I was just trying to watch as much as I could, and I've never seen anybody else roll the way that Ryan Hall rolls in training. It was so focused on allowing movement to happen, you can see clips of it online of him when he's rolling at seminars or even there's some footage of him rolling with blue belts, and he's standing on them like a gargoyle. He's just working on balance and sensitivity and stuff like that. When I was training at his academy, he gave a speech about his training attitude and how if you sweep him 99 times, on the 100th time, he's going to walk into your guard like he doesn't give a fuck about your Jiu-Jitsu and just try to get whatever experience you can out of it and that's actually where the name fuck your Jiu-Jitsu comes from. That's how influenced I am by Ryan Hall. It's from that speech and then I took just the watching him roll and the attitude that he had towards it, and I tried to codify that with a set of rules that created a game out of developing these skills. When people first see it, they think of it as situational sparring, but it's not because situational sparring is too aggressive. It's too much like real rolling where if somebody is already skilful at a position, they're just going to run their A-game in that position over and over again and it's not playful enough. The idea behind it was to take again the most current research I had read at the time was based on a book by Malcolm Gladwell, which is a book called Outliers. It included the 10,000-hour rule, which has largely been debunked to this point, but it included another example of certain cultures that promoted gamifying, even like-- I'll use the specific example was the Brazilian soccer team. They would play this indoor soccer variant, which was like five on five or something where they got a lot more time with ball handling and passing and the walls were in place so they were basically just having fun. They did it like, they weren't really trying to obviously, you're trying to win, but they were able to have fun with subsets of skills in soccer. That was one of the things that contributed to their skill level. Since then, I've become exposed to other examples like the Finns are unreal at car racing. There's a saying in car racing which is if you want to win, employ a Finn. It's because they get so much exposure to car control at an early age through Go-karts, through rally racing, through all these different things and so I very much wanted to try to develop these games because that was the science at the time and that has been born out by the more recent research as to how you can take athletes from a minimal level of skill to a maximum level of skill by focusing on certain things. ### Gamification for Jiu-Jitsu **Sonny:** That makes a lot of sense and yet a big shout out to Andy from School of Grappling. I spoke to him previously because he really made a lot of big things click for me personally, with that idea of the grey-zone and gamification as a way to teach both techniques and concepts, because previously, I'd heard concepts used in Jiu-Jitsu obviously and I'm like, I know a concept, but what's so, you got to be able to do the move. Then people would say, we've got to do situational sparring and I'm like, we already do it, what's the big deal? We work from half guard, we work from closed guard, that's situational sparring, but it was really through the conversations with him were emphasizing the gamification that really clicked for me that I could understand how it could all merge together. I'm wondering then aside from the Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu game that you've got, are there other ways of gamification that you've developed? **Rob:** Yes, absolutely. Because Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu tends to be-it's one version of a type of restricted drilling so when we design drills, and I'm actually in the process right now of filming a module for the pedagogy section on our site on how to design drills and we start with a very narrowly focused drill. One of the videos actually talk about chaos or chaotic versus linear progressions, and I talk about chaos theory, which is really arcane, but-- **Sonny:** You'd be surprised how often it's come up in these conversations. \[laughs\] **Rob:** It has to. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has so many analogous traits to chaos theory. When we're designing drills, we can have a game be something as simple as, if we're going to talk about situational sparring, we're going to say, half guard. We're just trying to win an underhook. That can be a game. That's an incredibly narrow game and if two people are relative beginners and they don't have the skill to have a Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu type around, they can just sit there and pummel. As long as it's explained to them what are the contingent parts of victory in a pummeling exchange, you can do that. That would be an example of a really focused drill that is a game. It's like, as soon as you win an underhook, we stop. Then you can expand that to you win an underhook and you come up to your knees and we stop and so on and so. If you want to get really narrow with the games, you can do it that way. We have what we call Micro Battles, which are games like that. We'll do something called an Arm-Drag game where one person is playing seated Butterfly Guard and we do this whenever we teach the Butterfly Guard module and whenever we teach the Arm-Drag module. You're in a seated Butterfly Guard and-- Do you know what Sticky Hands are in Wing Chun? **Sonny:** Yes. **Rob:** It's almost like sticking hands where you're not allowed to disconnect your hands from your training partner. Your hand fighting and the objective for the person that's playing seated Butterfly Guard is to gain an Arm-Drag grip, pull the elbow and just hit an Arm-Drag just to the point where your body's beside, you don't have to take their back, you don't have to come up on a single leg, you don't have to do anything. It's just as soon as you win the Arm-Drag and get past the centerline, the game is over and you start again. Then the person on top, if they win the hand fight, they have to try to stand up and pass. Then the person on the bottom just immediately puts butterfly hooks in behind their knees and drops to their back, to stop the pass. There are very definitive endpoints, and it's not as narrowly focused as maybe pummeling for underhooks, but that's a game that you can play. Man, we do that game so damn much that we know when people come to our gym, that have never rolled with somebody that's good at Arm-Drags, man, they just get arm dragged over and over and over and over. That's just an example of gamification. If I just taught my guys the Arm-Drag and then was like, "All right, go roll now, try to hit an Arm-Drag," they would never be anywhere near as good at it. We have a lot of different forms of games related to developing very specific skills. We'll do a version of Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu that's related to wrestling where we only hand fight. There are no takedowns. We hand fight and as soon as you get to the hips, so you get to a body lock or you get to the legs or anything like that, it's done. I got to find especially for Jiu-Jitsu practitioners who are hobbyists or for guys like myself, who are like, I compete, but I'm not a competitor. I'm not a full-time athlete or anything like that. If we want to work on our wrestling and we're not full-time athletes, so we're not taking steroids and all that kind of stuff, we're going to get injured, trying to bang it out on the feet the way that wrestlers do. We have to figure out ways to train our wrestling that puts minimal mileage on our bodies and that's probably the best way is just to engage in the hand fight, win the hand fight. That's another example of something that we have extensively gamified at our Academy. When I do go out and compete, what I've noticed is as long as we're talking like guys in my category, masters, I'm not saying I'm going to be the better hand fighter against someone like ADCC guy, that's ridiculous, but competing with equivalent black belts in my age category, et cetera, et cetera and even going above my weight class, competing. I'm in my 40s so when I compete locally, I'm often put into a masters category that is guys in their 30s. I can only get equivalent age and weight-class, black belt competition by going to No-Gi Worlds. I have to compete in a big tournament. In my local area, I might be competing against guys that are two-weight classes above me or guys that are 10, 15 years younger, that kind of stuff. In those categories, I have never felt like I was in any danger in the hand fighting department. I know I can always win the hand fight because it's just something I do so much more than a lot of people. That's another example of something that Jiu-Jitsu guys don't do enough of. ### Structuring Jiu-Jitsu Classes **Sonny:** I'm a big fan of hand fighting rounds, I do them all the time now, especially just as a warm-up and put all the guys through hand fighting and it's great fun. That brings me the question, how do you then structure your classes and split it between game-time and full rolling time. Because even now when I get people doing some situational stuff, I can maybe it's my own thoughts, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, they're just wanting to go full rounds and just go crazy. **Rob:** This is interesting because the thing that you mentioned earlier about how did being geographically isolated contribute to my development? One of the ways that it contributed to my development as an instructor is when I moved to the town that I live in, I was the first black belt in that town and I was only the second black belt on Vancouver Island, which meant that if you wanted good Jiu-Jitsu instruction in my town, you had to come to me and if I said, "Drill for 45 minutes." Everyone was like, "Okay, that's what I'll do." Whereas if I had opened up shop in Vancouver, or some other big city, and I tried to teach the way I taught years ago, maybe people would have gotten bored and gone to the club down the road. Nowadays I've got a reputation for being a skilful instructor. When I say to do something people just like, "Oh yes. Well, he knows what he's talking about." Back in the day, that could have gone very differently. Over the years, we've developed a lot of different formats for our classes. The current format that we use involves-- I try not to over teach. One thing that the longer I teach-- In the sense of the length of my career. The more time I've spent as an instructor the less material I try to present. Whether it's teaching classes or teaching seminars. I try to teach less. I want people to get an idea of the main concept and the movement that we're doing. I want them to experience either a gamified or a restricted drill that involves that movement. Let's say in an hour-long class, I'll say, "Okay guys, we're working on a knee cut pass." There is a basic movement that we're trying to do to just get to the knee cut position. We'll go through that movement a little bit then I'll immediately have them situation spar that position. When I say that position it's like they'll start with one person standing, and the other person on their back like a recumbent guard with their legs up. I'll provide some basic rules so that we've gamified the process of sparring to get to the knee cut position. There usually will not be more than let's say two minutes of instructions at the beginning. We want a very basic movement that acts as a warm-up. One thing I don't like is the traditional warm-up. Like, let's run around and do jumping jacks for 20 minutes. I can't stand that. I hated it as a practitioner because I felt like I would rather be doing Jiu-Jitsu. I'm paying to learn Jiu-Jitsu, I can do callisthenics on my own at home. We warm up with a movement that's related to what we're doing that day. We might just do a couple of entries to a knee cut. Then I'll give a little bit of instruction on what's happening and then they will spar that. Then if I've designed the class properly, what will usually happen is there will be one obvious problem that arises when people are trying to get to let's say the knee cut. Then the next segment of the class will address that problem and hopefully get them to the next stage. Then sometimes we'll work backwards. We'll go from you're already deep in the knee cut position, and you're facing a frame like an upper-body frame. Their arms are in your way. How do you get that? Once you beat the legs, you are at the hips, how do you finish the pass? Then again, they'll just spar that. Then after that, we will do a Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu type round that's just sparring, getting to the knee cut, and completing the knee cut. Then we'll do a Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu passing round. Where you can do any kind of passing, but I tell them, try to get to the knee cut, try to use all the other passes to get to the knee cut. That process will take about 45 minutes. Then we'll do a couple of other just general Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu rounds. It might be top control, it might be something else. There will be 10 to 15 minutes of warm-up and instruction, then around that gamifies what we did. A solution to a problem, then another round that gamifies what we did, and then maybe a short Q&A where I'll like, "Hey, does anybody have any questions about this or that?' "No." "Okay, then we'll do Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu." In an hour, we might be drilling in the sense of reps of the technique for maybe 20 minutes. There might be about 10 minutes of instruction at the most. Then the rest of it will be situational sparring, gamification, Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu, that kind of stuff. **Sonny:** Okay, now the biggest thing I noticed there was maybe the absence of just full free live rolls? Is that--? **Rob:** Yes, in a class, we don't roll. We have a class called a rollathon which is just an hour of rolling. A BJJ 101 class would be focused entirely on skill development. Then if you want to roll, you roll for an hour after that. I want the culture at our club of developing skills and focusing on your own development. Taking responsibility for your own learning. Aside from the curriculum classes where we'll have a 201 class or a 101 class. We have a class called the skills development class where there is no formal instruction involved. I show up, class starts, and people just start working on their own shit. They come to class with something to work on and then I'm just walking around and answering questions. I'm a very general guide. There is no sparring allowed of any kind in that class. Although you can do Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu. **Sonny:** Okay. **Rob:** You can't do sparring. You have to work on a skill, you have to do some game, you can drill, you can do whatever. Then after that, again, there is an hour of rolling. We get a ton of rolling in, but I try to have it almost be like where there is a separate [mentality to what I'm doing to develop my skills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) versus what is the purpose of rolling. The purpose of rolling, it can be to develop skills. You can definitely roll with an eye towards developing a particular skill, but if you just come to class and drill a little bit then want to roll right away, I just think the skill development suffers. **Sonny:** Yes, 100% that's somewhere that like I've been there myself. I can think back to times where I'm just like, I just want to roll and I know that that's not the best thing, but whatever. That's just the day I was having that I just-- yes, come on. I need to choke someone. \[laughs\] **Rob:** Yes, for sure. ### Getting the Best Results Out Of Training **Sonny:** What I like about what you are doing and the idea of gamification really is making that skill development fun. You can get that kind of sense of playfulness and experience through skill development. It's like a bit of spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down approach. Is that what you found? Have you found that working with your students and instilling that within them? **Rob:** Yes. We've been talking obviously a lot about how do we get the best results out of training? The reality of it is I am not a coach to an ADCC team. I'm a nerd on an island who is only ever going to coach hobbyists in his life. The geographic isolation creates another situation where it's like, because of where I'm at, there is not a single high-level athlete that is ever going to come to me for training. If you are a really good athlete where I'm at, you're going to go play hockey. You are not going to come to me for Jiu-Jitsu. There is no funnel of athletes to the-- It's just not going to happen. I had to let go of those sorts of coaching aspirations. I get to coach really elite guys every once in a while when I travel. I coach Yuri Simoes, I've coached Bill Cooper. That happens in very small doses. My day job is I teach 100% hobbyists. Even the guys I teach who compete are just guys who do this for fun. I can't approach what I do with the mentality of "I don't give a shit about fun. I'm just trying to make champions." That is not what I do. If I did that, I would be a much less successful business owner. My school would make a lot less money. I've very much over the last- let's say over the first few years I was very much that guy. It was just, what is the best way to teach, let's not worry as much about fun. Over the last few years, it's, "What is the best way to teach, but how can we have as much fun doing it as possible?" Oddly enough, the gamification stuff, the Fuck Your Jiu-Jitsu, all that stuff we do, it does make it way more fun. We used to drill for longer because I was modelling the Atos kind of approach. The drill to win is where you just come in and you just drill for 45 minutes straight. That's what I used to make my students do because I'm always trying to find newer, better ways of doing things. I wasn't satisfied with "Well, that's how Actos does it, so who am I to modify it?" I just did more research on one of the guys I mentioned earlier, Cal, my black belt, he was like, "Hey man, I was reading some research that shows that people actually learn better when they have a choice in the material." We incorporated what we call a split module, where at the beginning of the month, everybody that's in class votes on the material that we're going to present. You have two modules instead of one, and you can learn the material from either module in any class you show up to. Because people it's not like, "Okay guys, we're doing De La Riva guard for the month." Well, what if you're not really a fan of Del La Riva guard, then you're forced to drill De la Riva guard stuff. This way, we vote on it and you can work on the other. If we go back to De la Riva guard and Kimora control. If you show up that month, you don't like Del La Riva guard. Well, then you do Kimura control. We've added elements like that. Then we got rid of the 45 minutes of drilling stuff and reduced the amount of time we're drilling and increase the amount of time we're doing situational sparring or game playing or anything like that, and within a week or two of changing the format, students started coming up to like, "Man, I'm really digging this new class format, this is just way more fun, da da da da." I very much want that to be the student experience. Like how can I design a class so that you're getting the best results possible for your progress, but it doesn't feel like it's an onerous task to get there. You feel like you're just having fun doing it. ### How to Get People to Keep Coming Back **Sonny:** Exactly. Because for me personally, now I'm trying to do Jiu-Jitsu for as long as I possibly can, into my hopefully 60s, 70s, let's keep pushing it as far as we can. I know that the best way to do that is to make myself still want to go by making it as fun as possible and that's what I want to impart onto everyone else who's just-- If people are going to stick around, it's got to be something that they enjoy doing and look forward to coming to. That gamification seems like such a strong, important element they can play in that aside from just, hey, full rolling, just go for each other's necks. What are some other ways that you would think would be important to incorporate in just keeping people coming back and doing Jiu-Jitsu for a long time? **Rob:** This is something that I've spent a lot of time working on. This is again the advantage of not being-- I guess I'm a decently highly regarded coach, like people in the online Jiu-Jitsu community know who I am and people like what I do, but I'm not a trainer of champions. In other words, I'm not like let's pick an example, like Romulo Barralis a multiple-time champion in his own right and then he trains world champions, and so because I'm not that guy, if I was that guy, I wouldn't have to worry about the business side. I would have some affluent business partner who would provide me with a school, do all the marketing, da da da, I would just show up and teach classes. Because I'm not that guy and because I'm geographically isolated, I've had to learn on the fly how to be a businessman and how to make Jiu-Jitsu appealing to people where there isn't a Jiu-Jitsu culture. I don't have access to a community of people who love Jiu-Jitsu because we're building the Jiu-Jitsu community where I'm at. There isn't this massive, in other words, even if I was in Vancouver, there are probably 50 schools in Vancouver. If I opened up shop in Vancouver as an instructor of some renown, there would be people who'd already been training that might just come to me, whereas what I've got to do for the most part here is build people from the ground up with no exposure to Jiu-Jitsu prior to training with me, that is like a huge majority of my students. I've tried to learn more and more about the process of being a beginner, and how do you make something enjoyable and how do you get people to develop training habits that sustain enthusiasm and encourage longevity in the sense of like healthy training habits. The things that I've tried to incorporate over the last few years have been related to-- We do an intro for every student, that's not uncommon. I think most decently well run Jiu-Jitsu academies don't just have someone show up and join a class. You sit them down, you explain etiquette. We always explain the concepts, the base posture, structure frames, and levers. We teach them how to do a technical standup and a bridge and a hip escape and like fundamental stuff like that, then they join the class. Then before they actually join the class though, we will, after having gone through this onboarding process of like, here are some ideas about concepts, here are some movements. I'll go through a training mentality speech or like an explanation, and that explanation is basically if you come to Jiu-Jitsu and your goal is to be submitting people within a week or two, you're going to have an awful time. If your goal is to armbar folks, you're going to hate Jiu-Jitsu because unless you're a crazy-good athlete, some 200-pound former rugby player or whatever, you're not arm barring anybody in your first week, month, whatever of Jiu-Jitsu, you're just getting your ass kicked. It's really hard for somebody who's trying to learn a new skill to come in and just get shit kicked and not feel really discouraged. We give them this-- I don't know if it's a trick or whatever, but we basically teach them the notion of incremental goals and how that corresponds to enjoyment. If you come to class and your goal is to armbar, someone, every single class you leave for the first few months is a failure, and you walk out of that class having failed and only failed. If you come to class with the mentality that if somebody pulled my head down and I recognize that that was broken posture, and I pulled their hand off of my head, I just won. Even if you do nothing else through the rest of the roll, that is successful. You did one thing where you recognize that your alignment was broken. You accessed the lever and you fixed your posture. You will do multiple things like that like you recognized that your guard was being passed and you put up some frames. There you go, that's a win. Then you leave the class having won, having succeeded 5 times, 10 times, 20 times, even though you got your guard passed and you got your back taken and you got choked, that's not what determined your levels of success in class. We promote the hell out of that for beginners, just like you will leave every class having succeeded, and that will get you coming back. Then the other thing that I really emphasize, and this is not just related to student retention, but it's like you're talking about, I want to do Jiu-Jitsu in my 60s, in my 70s, in my 80s. We encourage rolling to explore and develop and we discourage rolling super hard all the time. There's a time to roll hard. If you train five days a week and you want to come in and roll hard one or two days a week, that's cool. If you're getting ready for a competition, and you want to come in and roll hard four days a week, that's cool, but outside of those contexts, it is not smart. It's not safe, it's not wise to roll hard all the time. What we do as far as the atmosphere of our club is guys who come in and try to roll that way, they get discouraged, because either we'll make fun of them in a gentle way, we're not trying to necessarily pick on anyone, but if somebody rolls in a way that isn't conducive to a lot of movement happening, we have phrases like, "Oh, that guy took his ball and went home." Or "That guy's- he's trying to win the drill." Or all that kind of stuff. We encourage having an attitude of helping your training partners, being a good student, being helpful. Our number one rule is to keep yourself and your training partners safe. The number two rule is to try to have fun and explore and all that kind of stuff. We create this mentality where we're all just having fun and playing games, and when we roll, we're trying to get better by exploring as much as possible. The whole atmosphere is have fun and we all get better together. There are ways of doing that, that involve very little potential for injury, very little potential for wearing your body down and just maximizing your potential for learning and development. It comes down to training mentality. It comes down to emphasizing safety and having all these methods because I would always emphasize rolling safely in the past, but if you don't give people the tools to do so, they might not even be intentionally trying to roll too hard. It's just that how, like if you just go from zero to rolling, all the rolling’s going to be super hard. By having all those games and those incremental steps to full rolling, when you start rolling, you can start the process all over again. You start with I'm going to take it real easy and I'm going to ramp up certain aspects of the roll. I'm going to pick the partners that I do it with. I like to roll hard. When I roll with my black belts, man, we do a lot of hard rolls because we can do it safely. A hard roll with a black belt can be very safe and can be had at 60%, 70% intensity, whereas if two white belts roll at 60%, 70% intensity, they're going to hurt each other. I can apply a heel hook on one of my black belts with a great deal of-- I can do it pretty hard and never worry about hurting them. I can be in a submission with one of my higher belts and know that I'm not going to get hurt if I ride the edge if I go right to the edge of where I got a tap, but I don't ever want my white belts doing that. We go through a very definitive process of building people up to the point where they recognize how to roll safely by increasing the intensity very gradually. Did that all make sense? **Sonny:** Yes, definitely did. There was a lot in there that was really good. I especially liked the idea of making beginners appreciate the value of incremental progressions and those little wins that they can get because especially, I remember once someone was asking me, when do you think I'll get my first tap? I thought I was giving them, this was a hopeful answer like, "Oh, sometimes you got to wait until someone new comes in and then you'll be able to get them." I thought that was like, "Yes, it's on the horizon." The look of disappointment on their face when I said that, I was like, "Oh, okay. That was not what they wanted to hear." Making them value that incremental progression makes a lot of sense and being able to do that. A lot of that is having control over the culture that you've got there to be able to set everyone's goals as soon as they walk through the door. It's surprising that a lot of the people who are doing something different or unique are actually geographically isolated it seems because there is the big mainstream Jiu-Jitsu culture that is going to be all-encompassing if you're right next to somewhere that's got a lot of that going on. That's what people will expect and if you try and do something new out of the mold, a bit different, you're going to cop a lot of questions and a lot of flack. The only person who is probably able to do that successfully, but obviously Eddie Bravo comes to mind as someone who went out of that mode and did his own thing. I'm wondering, just in terms of, on a broader cultural thing with Jiu-Jitsu, what would be one of the things that you might say would need or that if you could change as a whole, would you? Or maybe you wouldn't because it gives you a good little advantage of doing your own thing there. ### What Would Rob Biernacki Change? **Rob:** It's interesting. I was on a podcast a couple of years ago and somebody asked me if I saw that this conceptual approach and this emphasis on well-thought-out pedagogy methods because those are two separate things. I would say that quite a few more instructors are jumping on board with the idea of teaching concepts. When I started teaching, literally the only guy that was speaking in these terms was Ryan Hall, because at the time nobody had really heard John Danaher talk about like, obviously John Danaher teaches very conceptually, but he was such an enigma back then. People didn't know. To a certain degree, Demian Maia was, but if you hadn't gone out and got his Science of Jiu-Jitsu instructionals or whatever, it's not like that was part of the mainstream. Really the only guy that had a fair bit of exposure was Ryan Hall. Now it's getting out there more, but I still think we are very much in the infancy of pedagogy approaches. Five years ago, I would have said more guys need to teach conceptually. I think that's happening. I think that the industry is changing in that regard. Now I would say more guys need to really invest in developing a pedagogy method or sign up to bjjconcepts.net, get the pedagogy, we've got one. I do hope that we can be part of spreading this notion that the way that we teach needs to improve dramatically. The state of Jiu-Jitsu in let's say North America, but in the world in general has been, I would argue compromised by the-- I don't want to get too far down a rabbit hole here, but for myself, I opened my school in 2012. Almost everyone I know that opened a school did so in and around that area. Over the last 10 years, if you opened a Jiu-Jitsu school, basically since the 2008 financial crisis, you have opened a school in the most unprecedented economic growth period in human history on top of an explosion in the popularity of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which means that tons of people had the money for it and the demand far outpaced the supply, which conspired to create a market for-- You could have garbage skills at teaching and still run a successful school. There was zero market pressure up until like we'll see what happens now. I think one of the aftermaths of COVID is going to be you're no longer just going to be able to open up a school if you're a black belt and just make money. I'm not saying people were making money hand over fist because there's also this myth I think in Jiu-Jitsu that it's hard to make money running a school up until three months ago. It was absolutely not hard to make a living. If you were failing, it meant that you were either catastrophically competent as a businessman or you were just in a saturated market. I don't doubt that it's hard to open a school in Los Angeles and make money but if you went to a new market and just opened a school, literally every single person I know that opened a school in my relative geographic area, in British Columbia, Canada, every single person I know that opened a school succeeded. Even the guys who absolutely fucking suck at Jiu-Jitsu, are not good at teaching, they all succeeded. They all have successful schools in the sense that they are making a living. They're not making a killing, but to me, if you're making a living doing something you love, that's a success. I think that we went through this period of time where you literally didn't have to be any good. How many stories have you heard of like I emailed the Jiu-Jitsu club about classes and they never got back to me? That would not exist in a truly competitive market where there was more supply than demand. I think we're about to see the importance of real teaching skills could become more valuable where because the demand is going to drop for a little while and I couldn't be wrong. We could go through a huge recovery. I don't know what the recovery is going to be. If the recovery is enormous and we go through this filtering process where a bunch of schools go out of business, then honestly, it's going to get even worse because there'll be fewer schools and a whole bunch of people are going to go back to wanting to do Jiu-Jitsu and so it's going to matter even less if somebody's good at teaching. I might be way off on this, but one of the things I think will happen as we reach a saturation point of Jiu-Jitsu schools, the market pressure is going to change where you won't be able to get away with being a half-assed teacher. Because people have seen what good instruction looks like more and more. They will have seen what fun classes look like, it's not as good instruction in terms of quality. You go to a class and it's like, "I'm doing Jumping Jacks. I'm learning random moves. Then, I roll and I get my ass kicked." The people at the club across town or across the street, the classes are more diverse and there's this and there's that. I think as whatever it takes to reach that point in Jiu-Jitsu where you can't just open a school, and use car salesman marketing to drive in people where it has to be quality. Pre COVID, the biggest contributing factor to the success of a school was just how good was your marketing. You could be a dog sh\*t at teaching, but if you've got decent marketing and you have a relatively affluent area that you open up. If you make good choices with locating your business, and you have decent marketing, you could be a terrible teacher and you'll succeed. As we get a point of saturation, that should change. If I could snap my fingers, it wouldn't be a finger snap, but literally would be-- the market forces will demand better pedagogy methodology within Jiu-Jitsu. People will be forced to learn how to be better teachers. **Sonny:** Yes. Really great point that I hadn't thought of before, but as you're discussing it, it does seem like that. Instruction quality isn't really taken into account at the different schools because it's assumed that it's all the same. It's just, "Oh, it's going to be the same anyway." There's no point of differentiation between anyone so, is not a concern. ### Merit-Based Versus Time-Based Black Belt **Rob:** That is just down to the- if I want to be combative, I think that there are affiliations out there that are honestly trying to, subvert the notion that there are degrees of skill at Black Belt. I've been very outspoken, especially in my area, about the idea that I think a lot of guys who were wearing Black Belts, shouldn't be wearing black belts. I think that Black Belts should be indicative of- it's almost like a PhD in Jiu-Jitsu. If you're not extremely knowledgeable, I don't think there should be such a thing as a time served Black Belt. I use the phrase merit-based promotion and time-based promotion, and so there are a lot of affiliations that you get your time card, you get attending a certain number of classes, and you get promoted. There are guys who just, show up enough and they eventually get a black belt. I think are affiliations that want to blur the lines between a Black Belt who just showed up for 10 years, and a Black Belt who's legitimately skilled and knowledgeable in a diverse amount of Jiu-Jitsu, because it's in their interest as a business entity to not have someone be able to differentiate, "Well, that guy's a Black Belt, and that guy's a Black Belt." The differentiating factor right now is competition. "How do you say that I'm a really good Black Belt?" "Well, I won this tournament." Anything other than that, they just want to try to say, "Yes, well that guy's a Black Belt and that guy's a Black Belt." I've heard uninformed consumers say, "Well, this particular guy is a fifth-degree Black Belt. He must be really good". I remember being at a school once training, two guys walked in the door, and they're like, "Hey, did you see that guy? He's a fifth or sixth degree Black Belt", Damien Maia is only a second-degree Black Belt. Can you imagine how good that guy is? I laugh. That's the level of knowledge that people have, and so they see this fat old guy who let's be honest, it's probably not that good at Jiu-Jitsu. Because he hasn't learned a new move since the '90s, but he's got all these stripes because we're giving out stripes now for time served. I'm very vocal about that. If we're not going to have clearer rank standards, which, I think, is impossible, by the way. I don't want a governing body to say anything. What I do want is there to be a relatively open and honest conversation within the community about the distinction between merit-based rank and time-based rank. We all know that once you've been in Jiu-Jitsu for a little while, you do know that there are Black Belt- it's like Joe Rogan says, "There are Black Belts, and then there are Black Belts." There are Black Belts who strangle other Black Belts. Then, there are Black Belts who strangled those Black Belts. Then, there are Black Belts who are world champion Black Belts. Then, there are Black Belts who win the five-World Championships who strangled those Black- there are so many levels to this, right? **Sonny:** Yes. World champion purple belts who could probably- **Rob:** Who could strangle mixed Black Belts. That's the thing. Personally, I don't think there should be a World Championship for Colored Belt. I think that's laughable. Can you imagine somebody just says, "I'm an Olympic Champion in Judo at Yellow Belt"? It's absurd. **Sonny:** We have that situation. **Rob:** Right. I think, honestly, it's good for the sport to have an extensive competition scene, but I think it's bad for the sport that the way we categorize, it makes it so that we're selling fake glory to narcissists because the IBJJF basically exists on the business model of having someone be able to say, "I'm a world champion." Meanwhile, there were three asterisks after that. It's like, "I'm in masters for Blue Belt World Champion", like, "Dude, you are not a world champion. I'm not trying to shit on the accomplishment". **Sonny:** "This poor bastard is full of Blue Belt." out there... \[laughs\] **Rob:** That doesn't exist in any other sport. In other sports, there's a junior league, and then you work your way up. I get it, we need to have this for Jiu-Jitsu, but don't call it the World Championship. If you're not a Black Belt world champion, you're not a world champion. I think it makes our sports seem clown shoes to an outside observer because they're, "Well, how many world champions are there? It can't be that hard to be a world champion because I know a world champion." There are guys on my island that are like, "I'm a world champion". There's a guy who went to the-- it's not even Jiu-Jitsu, it's Combat Submission Wrestling World Championships in fucking Bulgaria. It's like, that dude lost at the provincials at Purple Belt in BC. What the fuck are we even talking about? There's this bizarre rank inflation and title inflation that happens. I'm not down with any of it. I wish we were more on the up and up with these kinds of things. **Sonny:** Although I will say, I do personally want to go to some Combat Wrestling one day, just because I like the rural set \[laughs\] . **Rob:** The rule set it's great. I'm sure the longer it exists, it will become a pretty legit thing. **Sonny:** I get you. **Rob:** Every MMA promotion is the podunk cage fighting world champion. It's like, "No dude, you're not". **Sonny:** Yes. Especially, I could definitely get behind the idea of at a bare minimum of if you win the world champion, so you podium, that should just be an instant promotion. If you can't, especially then have multiple-year Blue Belts world champion, it's like, "Come on. That's gone too far.". **Rob:** On the flip side, I don't think that somebody who wins- because you'll hear this said of, any Blue Belt world champion at this point will beat most hobbyist Black Belts. I don't think that's even a controversial statement to make. **Sonny:** Probably not. **Rob:** I'm not of the position where like, "Oh, just because that guy could be those Black Belts, means that he should be a Black Belt." For one, I think probably a lot of those Black Belts shouldn't be Black Belts, but there's something to be said for somebody having a narrow skill-set, and being able to win would be because they're exceptional at that skill-set. I do think there's a process that we need for getting people up to speed, but I just think we need to be a lot clearer about it. Again, the IBJJF has benefited from there being a no distinction between hobbyists and full-time professional athletes. You got guys who are flying in to the Houston IBJJF open and are competing against guys who train three times a week, and are going to try and see how they do. Then, you get these guys who get to have these crazy highlight reels because they're styling on hobbyists. I don't think that that is good for the sport, because we need to have a real-hard distinction between those pros and the hobbyists. I don't think that they should compete with each other. I don't think that's beneficial. **Sonny:** No, that makes a lot of sense. I just want to run then, by you a hypothetical scenario because I'm just focusing on that take of the merit-based Black Belt versus the time-based Black Belt. Let's say knowing the situation myself, but if you've got a Brown Belt who's been working with you. Little Jimmy's been with your 10 years, maybe it's going into 11, 12, 13, 14, he's on his Brown. He's a good guy, but maybe some things just aren't clicking with him and he's asking you, "Hey, Rob, maybe is it going to be this year or-?" Do you see where I'm going? **Rob:** I absolutely see where you're going. I actually do believe that there are people who will never get a Black Belt from me. Actually, there are people who will never get a Brown Belt from me. Let's say you started Jiu-Jitsu at 35 and you train twice a week. You get diminishing returns at a certain point. If you are not able to put the time in to garner the skills, then at a point where your body starts declining, I can't give somebody a belt on theoretical knowledge alone. That might change. I'm not trying to say that this is the be-all-end-all position, but with where I'm at now, to me, Purple Belt is- the belts in Jiu-Jitsu mean different things than they do in other martial arts. In other martial arts, Black Belt is like, "Hey, you understand-", a Judo Black Belt. A Judo Black Belt is usually about three years, maybe five. It's considered the belt at which you understand the art. It's not considered this crazy expert Belt, but what we've said about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is if you're a Black Belt, it's 10 years, and you're a doctor, you're this and you're that. If we're going to say that, to me, you don't become a medical doctor by showing up to university a couple of times a week, and then eventually like, "Okay, Man, you can do surgery". You don't do it that way. If we're going to say that Black Belt is this level of standard in Jiu-Jitsu, then to me, you got to say that there are people who are just not going to get there. For me, Purple Belt is the new Black Belt in that sense. If you're the guy who shows up a couple of times a week and you're just going to train really casually, I think you're going to top out at Purple Belt. I think that is a level of skill that just about anybody, of just about any level of athleticism, maybe a little overweight, not great diet, not great athlete, but just comes to class consistently. Honestly, I've got some people that I train where I'm like, "Let's see what happens. Let's see how it goes." Because when I say, "I think they're going to top out at Purple Belt", I'm literally just basing that on- **Sonny:** A hunch. **Rob:** Yes, it's a hunch. I think that what I consider Black Belt level is pretty damn high, but maybe they get to Brown. I'm prepared to have my mind changed on it, but my hunch is that Purple Belt is where somebody tops out. If they're that guy who, as I said, they train a couple of times a week. They don't take it that seriously. **Sonny:** Sure. Let's say then, in that hypothetical, you've got someone maybe topping out Purple or Brown, and they come to you, "What do I need to do to get to the-? I want to get to the next level of belt." Are you going to give him a criteria or-? **Rob:** Yes. One of the other things that we try to provide our students is a very clear rank structure and requirement. It would never- I shouldn't say it would never, but it would be unlikely for it to happen that somebody would come to me at Purple Belt or at Brown Belt and be like, "What do I got to do to get my Black Belt?" Because every step of the way- I actually just had this conversation today with one of my students. He's like, "Hey, I was about to talk to you about this before COVID and now we're going to be getting back to training. What do I need to do?" He just got his Purple Belt before we shut the doors. Now he's like, "What do I have to focus on going towards Brown Belt?" I'm like, "Well, you got to focus on this, this, and this." Our rank requirements are very clear and they're very modular. As I said, I'm not a fan of, "You got to show me these moves", because the moves might change where it's like, "Oh, show me an armbar from the guard." That's fucking useless. "What am I going to do to? Test you? You can do an armbar from the guard on a dummy", that's worthless. Rank requirements are the same way that we do our classes, which is I need you to demonstrate certain skills. To get a Blue Belt, you got to play a couple of different kinds of guards. You got to show me that you can do A, B passing options. You got to show me that you can do an A, B submission sequence from some dominant positions. I don't care what it is. You could be a guy who hits a hip bump triangle from the guard and then turns that into an armbar. Great, there's your A, B submission sequence. It doesn't have to be anything else. You can get a Blue Belt from me and not know- I shouldn't say not know, but not be super good at the armbar from the mount, because that's just not your sequence. If your A, B sequence from the mount is that you go for a guillotine, and then turn that into a darce. Cool. You might be a guy who just goes, mounted triangle, and then could only do the armbar from there and you never do the classic armbar from the mount where you push on the guy's chest. That's fine. You'll get there eventually. I don't those kinds of requirements, but you need to know one [leg attack and that's usually the straight ankle lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). Then, to get a Purple Belt, you got to show me that you can do pressure passing and movement-based passing, that you can play three guards, and that you understand the leg lock system, but you don't have to heel hook anybody and you'll still get a Purple Belt for me. It's more about, do you have a certain set of skills? Then, by the time you get to Black Belt, man, you got to play five or six different guards. You got to have pressure passing and movement-based passing, and submission-based passing. You got to have a bunch of different submission systems that you're good at. Your leg locks need to be good. You got to have takedowns and you've got to be able to explain Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in a conceptual fashion to people, you need to be able to teach. I got very high standards. If somebody is a mostly GI guy, and they're a pretty damn good Purple Belt, but they're not good at leg locks. They're not getting the Brown Belt from me. If I ask them a question and they can't explain- or a student asked them. If you want to be a teacher, at our club, the minimum is Brown Belt for teaching adult classes, although Purple Belts will fill in, I basically want only Brown or Black Belts teaching classes. If you're going to aspire to that rank and somebody asks you a question and you can't explain lever-based rotational control, "Sorry, dude, just stay in a Purple Belt." The requirements are really clear and the standards are really clear. No one's going to complain because they all see what a Brown Belt looks at our club, what a Black Belt looks at our club. They know if they don't live up to that, they're not going to be asking me, "What do I got to do to get a Black Belt?" **Sonny:** I think if it was just, you had high standards and the criteria wasn't clear, then it sounds it's cruel. **Rob:** Yes, for sure. **Sonny:** If you've got the criteria we'll set-out and it's just high standards, but if people know it and they want to work towards it, then I think that makes a lot of sense. That's reasonable for a sport that values on overcoming obstacles and adversity that such a bit of adversity be put in place to achieve one of the pinnacles of the sport. **Rob:** I think so. I think that we do-- our students a disservice when we blur the lines. At a lot of gyms, there are two different tracks. There's the hobbyist track and there's the competitor track, you get guys who are showing up and they're getting Purple Belts put on them, and then this dude who's just murdering everybody. He's still a Blue Belt because they want him to win Blue Belt Worlds. Obviously, people figure it out. People aren't stupid. They're like, "I know why he's not being promoted." But the fact that it's not talked about, the fact that it isn't laid out in front of everybody- in my academy there aren't two tracks, there isn't the hobbyist track and the competitor track. It's just you get promoted when you're good. You don't have to be a killer competitor, but you got to be good. The guys at our school who compete, when they roll with guys at our school who don't compete. There is particular ranks, the roles are competitive. The guy who competes might win a little bit more because he's in better shape because he competes and all that stuff. In terms of pure skill, there they're relatively equivalent. I don't like having those kinds of separate rank pathways for people. I think it's disingenuous. Again, I think it allows for this blurring the lines bullshit where, "Oh, I'm going to open a school because I got my Black Belt." To be fair, I wouldn't have this opinion be as vocal if I didn't see this done where a guy who showed up once in a while, doesn't roll that much, doesn't even compete, but he wants to run a school and he gets a Black Belt put on him despite being demonstrably shitty at Jiu-Jitsu, but he pays his affiliate fees and brings a dude out for a seminar. That guy slaps a Black Belt on him. I fucking hate that because that guy pretends that he's the equivalent of me or the equivalent of one of my Black Belts, or the equivalent of somebody who's putting real work in to be a good Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, a good coach, etcetera, etcetera. That guy gets to skate by and pretend that he's on the same playing field. I don't like that. And if I call that guy out, I'm the asshole somehow. I don't like that. ### The Proliferation of Conspiracy Theories in Jiu-Jitsu **Sonny:** I hear you on that. No, that's a very reasonable way to put it in. Maybe just on that thing of calling someone out, it's been a good conversation. I just want to shift gears for one last question, which is I wanted to just put this one to you and it didn't come up naturally, so chuck it in here at the end. Just the idea of conspiracy theories and their proliferation within, it seems like a proliferation within Jiu-Jitsu. You can skip this one if you- **Rob:** No, I will answer it, absolutely. **Sonny:** Maybe to link it all back in, we've been talking about how we construct our knowledge of Jiu-Jitsu and teaching practices. That's being the same as this conversation, are the methods we go about constructing that knowledge and basing it on research and feedback, and what we observe and what we've learned from other places. There's always been an emphasis in Jiu-Jitsu on weeding out things that don't work and only using the observable reality of techniques that are based on competition. Yet, one thing that does seem to be a bit of a common occurrence is this idea of-- there's a lot of conspiracy theories that this just seems to be a common thing in Jiu-Jitsu that goes around, and I can't find a way to square the two. I'm wondering what your opinion on it is. **Rob:** What my opinion is on it? I'm going to bury myself with this answer, but whatever. First off, I think-- when I say, "I think", these are hypotheses on my part, I would love to be able to test them more extensively. I'd love to be able to grab a bunch of Black Belts and put them in a room and go through some really specific testing. These are hunches on my part. The first one is that because Jiu-Jitsu is so empirical and people value personal experience as much as they do, we have a bunch of guys who have reached a certain level of Jiu-Jitsu and they value their personal experience above almost any other thing. If I prove to you that the armbar works, and then you get good through personal experience and you're good at armbars, and you have your method for doing the armbar, you believe that that works. That's great. If you have no scientific background, and you don't know anybody who got COVID and you think very highly of yourself, you may start seeking out confirmation bias type stuff. You will seek out information that supports, especially as a business owner. Let's be honest, most people in Jiu-Jitsu are not highly educated. It's not the wrestling where for the most part, if you wrestled at a high level, it means you went to university and you have some level of education. There are a lot of just dumb fucks who are really good at Jiu-Jitsu, but if you were to try to give them a quiz on any critical thinking science, any kind of that stuff, they would fail miserably. They universally are-- let's just be honest, cult attitudes are rampant in Jiu-Jitsu. There are a lot of guys running Jiu-Jitsu [schools who are just worshiped by their students,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) and they never get any negative feedback or blowback for their opinions. They're deified at their school. They can say some hellaciously stupid shit and people will just nod their heads. I think it's a confluence of those factors where a lot of guys in this business are not well-educated. They're very well educated in Jiu-Jitsu and we definitely live in a world where you can insulate yourself and get your own set of facts if you're within a certain political bubble. I think martial arts in general, Jiu-Jitsu in particular, are going to skew more to one aspect of the political spectrum. That aspect of the political spectrum happens to be more prone to conspiracy theories, period and happens to be more anti-science in general. You just have a confluence of factors where it's like this Confederacy of Dunces that are talking to each other and just lack of the self-awareness to know how what they believe about Jiu-Jitsu is completely the opposite of what they're doing in their life. As a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner, as a Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt, if a White Belt came to you and started spouting off about Jiu-Jitsu, you'd be like, "Shut the fuck up, why am I listening to your opinion?" Yet, you go out all these armchair epidemiologists, armchair statisticians, armchair politicians, armchair economists, etcetera, etcetera, very comfortable with these opinions. There's also a factor that I think is significantly contributing to it, which is incredibly stressful times causes people to seek out anything that provides a feeling of certainty. Let's be honest. The reason religion is as popular in society historically is that it sells certainty. It sells, "We've got the answers." That's all a conspiracy theory provides, it provides somebody who is going through a traumatic time in their life some semblance of control. The world is really fucking scary if you believe is that a random virus turned the world upside down and compromised your ability to make a living. That is fucking terrifying that that can just come out of the blue. If it's all part of a plan, that's actually very reassuring \[chuckles\] because it takes the randomness away. Have you've seen the movie, The Dark Knight? Where the joker talks about-? **Sonny:** Yes. **Rob:** He talks about that. Where if it's a random event, it's terrifying, but as long as there's a plan, then it's okay. That's what we're seeing here. It's like, "Oh, there's a plan. Oh, Bill Gates created this that he can inject you with a microchip. Oh, okay. We're cool." Then, "I can just take this one action of not getting the vaccine. I've got a simple answer that's allowing me to take full control of my life and my response to this." Whereas if you're just going along with what's going on and you got to have your school shut, and you don't know when it's going to be able to open and you don't know what's safe and what's not, then that's fucking terrifying. Most people would rather be comfortable and have that security and reduce that cognitive dissonance than be like, "Fuck." Man, I'll tell you, for me, personally, I have most days over the last three months woken up with a sense of uncertainty and anxiety about the world because I know I'm not in control. I don't do well with a lack of control. I live a life where I, as an adult, had more control over my day to day existence than the vast majority of adults. Literally, I almost don't have to do anything I don't want to do. Luckily, I'm a relatively disciplined person or I'd be a total fucking disaster because I don't have to wake up in the morning. I don't have a wife, I don't have a mortgage. I don't have any responsibilities outside of show up and teach Jiu-Jitsu. I could be a nightmare and I've lived a very fortunate life. Now, there's a bunch of shit that's totally out of my control. I try to educate myself about it and I try to do what's best based on the best expert advice knowing also that expert advice is changing because it's a new situation. This is where frankly, our education system in North America, and certainly a lot of other education systems, don't do our society any favours because people don't know what science is. They think, "Oh, science says this and now science says this other thing. Well, that means that science doesn't know what it's talking about." Whereas people were educated to understand that science is a method, not a monolith, and that this is a new situation and the more we learn, we have to change our opinion and all that kind of stuff, then, it'd be less apt or less open to criticism. Because people don't know that now it's easy for them to like, "Well, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about". This guy who tells me that the lizard people are controlling etc and it's all part of the plan and they just want to control us. It's like, "Dude, really?" Again, if you had some critical thinking skills, you could maybe interrupt this process, but people don't. There's a severe lack of critical thinking, even in a community that likes to think of itself as like, "Look at us, we make fun of Karate. We make fun of Kung-Fu because those idiots don't spar and then they're posting about conspiracy theories and all this kind of stuff. I think it's a confluence of undereducated people with a tremendous amount of unearned social capital. People look up to Jiu-Jitsu Black Belts way too fucking much. They shouldn't. We shouldn't be taken as seriously as we are. You mentioned before if I could snap my fingers? Man, if I could snap my fingers and change something about Jiu-Jitsu, I would have some sort of protocol for knocking all of us Black Belts down a peg, several pegs actually. It's something I have in my school, I have got protocols in place to make sure that I don't ever get to thinking that I'm that fucking great because I'm not above it, none of us are above it. If you get enough people telling you you're so fucking great you're going to believe it. There is just an epidemic of that Jiu-Jitsu, there are way too many cultic practices and way too many people think that they're qualified to be talking about shit they've got no business talking about. There you go. **Sonny:** I hear you. I'm glad I asked that question. I'm glad I asked that question now \[chuckles\] . **Rob:** I'm not glad I answered it because I'm sure some people are going to-- Whatever. **Sonny:** You'll be alright. No, I thought that was pretty diplomatic, actually, but who am I to judge? I just put on pyjamas and roll around and teach people how to choke each other, I'm certainly no arbiter of good taste, \[laughs\]. You did bring up something which is very important, I think, which is that, from that personal experience, which is an interesting thing, I hadn't thought about it the way you described it, but just that how people would never take what a White Belt said on face value as being an unquestionable truth just on their opinion, but yet it's so common that they apply that thinking to other areas that they haven't had experience with themselves. I had a sleep scientist Dr Ian Dunican. Before he made a comment about fighters, he's like, "Oh, I don't want to overstep my mark because I've never fought." I said," Well, a lot of fighters are pretty quick to overstep their mark into science, so feel free." \[chuckles\] **Rob:** This is an interesting thing that you bring up because it's funny how often you'll hear a scientist or anyone who's got either scientific training, or even just is scientifically inclined, they're so quick to be like, "I don't want to speak about this." And if they do, I tend to speak about the topics outside of Jiu-Jitsu, but when I do, all I'm doing is speaking with reverence to the education that I've received or the information that I've received from experts. If I'm talking about cognitive learning strategies, I'm going to be like, "Hey man, I don't know that much about this, here's what I do know." All I'm doing is repeating what I've learned from an expert in the field in a less cogent fashion. I can explain basic physics, but as soon as we start to go beyond that, I'm like, "Man, I don't know". I think anybody who has any kind of scientific training that brings with it a certain amount of humility about speaking, even on another scientific talk, like a guy who's an expert in one part of physics will be like, "Well, if I'm going to talk about this side of physics I'm overstepping my bounds." Whereas just general society and people who don't have a scientific background, they're very comfortable talking out of their ass because there has been, in my opinion, a concerted effort over the last, I would say 30 years to 40 years on the part of certain political actors in North America, but probably more around the world as well, to undercut the validity of expertise, to try to make it so that expertise matters less, scientific knowledge matters less. So that they can have a debate with a false equivalency where there's a logical fallacy of equal argument. There are always two sides to a story, there are not always two equally valid arguments. Just because there are two arguments doesn't make them equally valid. That's a fallacy. I think there's been a concerted effort and a very politically motivated one to make it so that people will view experts' opinions and any other opinion on an equal basis. This has been done in a very calculated fashion to undermine the validity of scientific expertise. I think, A, it's a tragedy. I think it's going to contribute-- and I think it already has. Anyone who's viewing current world events, can see what happens, look at the countries that are run by intelligent individuals with scientific training, Germany, Taiwan, South Korea. Look at countries that are governed by, I use the word charismatic in quotations, by "Charismatic idiots." I don't mean just the one that most people are going to think of, there are many of them. There are many charismatic idiots, including the one running my country. I say this without political affiliation, I'm not trying to throw anyone political leader under the bus, I'm saying that electing people who are fucking morons to office, regardless of their political stripe, have bad consequences. I think that we as a society, and we as Jiu-Jitsu practitioners within a community, need to raise our standards of who we listen to and who we elevate in terms of opinion. If they're not highly educated, if they don't have some sort of expertise, then we shouldn't listen to a goddamn thing they say. If we're going to listen to Black Belts who have no expertise outside of Jiu-Jitsu, completely ignore them. They've got literally nothing to offer you in terms of a valid opinion. **Sonny:** I agree with that. Maybe to wrap it all up and bring it back around to martial arts for tight in a nice little bow, as you were saying that I was thinking about when I corner fighters, and I'll be cornering for kickboxing fighters, but the fighters will have a full-time kickboxing coach with them, Nick Pudney or Chad Lumley we work with. Sometimes they'll be in the corner and I just want to yell something out because I'm there, I'm pumped up, but they've got the guys, they've had men who they've been working with and I'm here helping out, but I really want to yell something out. What I'll do is I'll listen to what those guys are saying and I'll just yell that out. **Rob:** Exactly. **Sonny:** I think, I don't know. I like that approach, it's the one I'm doing myself and I think it can work. **Rob:** Yes, I think if you have any voice, whether it's in our Jiu-Jitsu community or in the wider community, and you want to speak with that voice outside of your area of expertise, speak with that voice to amplify the voices of experts and you can't go wrong. ### Rob Biernacki Interview Wrap Up **Sonny:** I think that's a good way to wrap this one up in a bar. Maybe we can come back in another time in the future and just delve deeper into those things as well because I think it's been a great conversation, Rob, I really enjoyed it. **Rob:** I would absolutely love to. I've really enjoyed the conversation as well. I had a blast talking to you, I'd be happy to do it again. **Sonny:** Thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you. I know you've got BJJconcepts.net. I know you've even got a live-in residency program or something. **Rob:** Yes, I'll try to touch on it as briefly as possible. Obviously, it's not happening right now. We have a visiting student. It's been brutal. I'm looking at my calendar now, I had all these visitors scheduled and it's like, "Well, that guy's not coming. That guy's not going. That's not happening." We have a visiting student program. We host Jiu-Jitsu practitioners from all around the world. All you have to do is get here. The idea is it's free. I have a three-bedroom home, two of those bedrooms are dedicated to visitors and we've had as many as five people staying at my house at any given time. They stay with me. They train for free at my academy for a week. There's no catch. We've done it for years. Over the last probably three or four years we've probably averaged between 50 and 80 people every year. Again, from all around the world. We actually had quite a number of visitors from Australia. A lot of visitors from the US around Canada, Europe, South America, Asia, really just about everywhere. It's a great program that has allowed me to undercut my social tendencies because, if I didn't have this program, I would literally never speak to another human being outside of Jiu-Jitsu class. It's been really beneficial that way. If somebody wants to get in touch with me, I'm on Instagram, although I hate social media. I am on Instagram at Island Top Team. We also have an Instagram account for BJJ concepts, @BJJConcepts. You can get in touch with me through BJJConcepts.net through the email there. When things get back to normal eventually, the visiting student program will resume. I now have a backlog of people that I will have to get out here who were supposed to visit over the last few months, but I will find room for anybody who wants to visit. Hopefully, if you're ever inclined to travel, come out here and visit us. **Sonny:** I'd love to, whenever the borders are back on. After we get the microchip, we'll be ready to go. Alright, Rob, it's been beautiful, mate. I'd love to do it again in the future. Have a great day. **Rob:** Awesome. You too, man. ## Rob Biernacki Resources ### Rob Biernacki **Quotes** - “I won’t teach something publicly until I’ve been personally working on it for about a year.” - “The more time I spend as an instructor, the less material I try to present.” - “People actually learn better when they have a choice in the material.” - “You will leave every class having succeeded, and that will get you coming back.” - “More guys need to really invest in developing a pedagogy method.” - “There are black belts, and there are black belts.” - “I don’t think there should be a world champion for colour belts.” - “We’re selling fake glory to narcissists.” - “If you’re not a black belt world champion, you’re not a world champion.” - “We do our students a disservice when we blur the lines.” - “Incredibly stressful times cause people to seek out anything that provides a feeling of certainty. That’s all a conspiracy theory provides.” - “Just because there are two arguments doesn’t make them equally valid.” - “Electing people who are fucking morons to office, regardless of their political stripe, has bad consequences.” - “If you have any voice, and you want to speak with that voice outside of your area of expertise, speak with that voice to amplify the voices of experts.” ### Rob Biernacki **Links** - [Island Top Team Website](https://islandtopteam.com "https://islandtopteam.com") - [BJJ Concepts Website](https://bjjconcepts.net "https://bjjconcepts.net") - [Island Top Team Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/IslandTopTeam "https://www.facebook.com/IslandTopTeam") - [Rob Biernacki Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/islandtopteam "https://www.instagram.com/islandtopteam") - [BJJ Concepts Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/bjjconcepts "https://www.instagram.com/bjjconcepts") - [Island Top Team YouTube ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ADcnGZK0RbJbOpuiJ9yXQ "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ADcnGZK0RbJbOpuiJ9yXQ") - [School Of Grappling Website](http://www.schoolofgrappling.com "http://www.schoolofgrappling.com") ![BJJ Concepts, Pedagogy & Gamification - Rob Biernacki Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_Rob_Biernacki_promo1-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_Rob_Biernacki_promo1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Rory van Vliet On Alignment Theory & The Science Behind Your Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rory-van-vliet-alignment-jiu-jitsu-theory/) **Published:** May 16, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Rory van Vliet - Alignment Theory & The Science Behind Your Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/rory_van_vliet-1024x576.jpg "Rory van Vliet › Sonny Brown")I talk to Rory van Vliet from [RVV BJJ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi_I_mIrzSOlgj_fAGA_FDQ "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi_I_mIrzSOlgj_fAGA_FDQ"), who takes a methodical approach to explaining the science behind your jiu-jitsu. He explains the critical [principle of alignment](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki"), which breaks down into posture, structure and base. We also discuss an innovative drilling method called "*FYJJ*" developed by [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/ "Rob Biernacki On Pedagogy, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Jiu-Jitsu"). He also discussed various ways to maximise training time and why beginners should NOT train closed guards. Finally, he explains how low percentage moves and false positives can hinder your training and development and how to solve this problem. ## Listen to Rory van Vliet ## Key Topics ### Alignment: posture, structure and base Rory breaks alignment into posture, structure and base, using those ideas to explain why techniques work or fail. Rather than memorising isolated moves, he looks for mechanical principles that transfer across positions. ### Using competition footage to understand technique The episode explores Rory’s process of studying elite competition footage in detail, identifying recurring patterns and then testing those observations in training. ### FYJJ and constrained training Rory discusses Rob Biernacki’s FYJJ training method, which uses focused situational rounds to develop specific skills under resistance rather than relying only on static repetitions. ### False positives and training efficiency Another theme is how low-percentage techniques can appear successful in the wrong training environment. Rory explains why coaches should pay attention to the quality of feedback athletes receive and structure practice to expose weak assumptions. ## Key Takeaways - Alignment offers a transferable framework for understanding Jiu-Jitsu. - Competition footage can reveal patterns that are difficult to see from isolated technique demonstrations. - Focused live training can make drilling more representative of the real problem. - Coaches need to watch for false positives created by compliant or poorly designed practice. ## Resources - [RVV BJJ on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi_I_mIrzSOlgj_fAGA_FDQ) - [Island Top Team](https://islandtopteam.com/) - [BJJ Concepts](https://bjjconcepts.net/) ## Podcast Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Great to have you here today, Mate. How are you? **Rory:** I'm doing great. Thank you for having me here. We've been trying to get this together for a little bit now. **Sonny:** We have. This gap in everyone's work schedule has been good to try and catch up on some of these plans I had laid out. Yes, I've been a fan of your work for a while. You've got a great YouTube channel RVV BJJ. **Rory:** Thank you. **Sonny:** Yes, yes, it's a great resource. I reckon everyone should check it out. The videos that turned me on to you were the Gordon Ryan Floating Pass. **Rory:** I think that's the only reason why I have any notoriety or success on YouTube right now. It's because of that series. **Sonny:** I found that really helpful. It's a great series, and I'd even done a seminar with Matthew Tesla, one of the Danaher Death Squad brown belts. He came out to Australia and did a seminar on floating pass, and I picked up things from that, but actually, going to your videos really made a lot of the stuff he was showing click for me. I think there's that benefit of seeing it in competition and how you were explaining it was a great addition to how, actually, Matthew Tesla himself was explaining it. I think that's a good compliment to your work. **Rory:** Excellent. Yes, that was a fun one, where I hadn't done something like that before where I've done a deep dive really going through hours and hours of competition footage that I could do, even having to pay for FloGrappling, which I hated doing, but just so I could see some more matches. I originally only had a plan for four parts, but as I kept on going through more and more footage-- As I'm sure you know, we have a plan. We're making a video kind of, and then, as we keep on taking in more information, all of a sudden, it's like, "Oh, man, I have to change this, I have to add this. That part is so cool here." It became like 17 parts and completely overblown. **Sonny:** Yes, 17 parts of quality, quality content. Yes, thank you for putting that together. One thing that comes through in your videos, and think I noticed in those videos, was your approach to thinking about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You had a very analytical approach. Then, when I realized your instructor was [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki"), that made sense to me, because I was somewhat familiar with his work. I'm just wondering, your history with Rob, how you got into Jiu-Jitsu, and how that has influenced and shaped your thinking towards the sport. **Rory:** Yes, it's not hard to tell that I am a student under [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki") if you know his work, and then you listen to me speak. I originally started martial arts at 19 years old, which is 11 years ago now. I started in German Jiu-Jitsu, which was Japanese Jiu-Jitsu with kickboxing, essentially, if I was to just break it down basically. We trained it, but we were also doing a no-gi submission grappling for fun. I found that I was naturally getting more drawn to that stuff, because just doing the live sparring in Jiu-Jitsu, as we all know, it's just a blast, and to get to actually pressure test this stuff starts to cut out the fat of things that don't work. What started happening for me is I was getting into the security workforce where I was doing bouncing; I was doing uniform work; I was doing loss prevention, where I caught people stealing in stores by just pretending to shop all day; and when I was getting into physical altercations trying to arrest people and apprehend them, I kept on resorting to grappling. I found that all the-- not all, but a lot of the Japanese Jiu-Jitsu Aikido stuff that I was working on at the time for three to four years at that point, was just stuff that I wasn't able to replicate in a adrenaline-filled high-intensity situation, like actually having to use it in a street defense situation. I kept on just moving further and further away from that stuff and focusing on the grappling. Unfortunately, that school ended up shutting down, just because there wasn't enough students. I was training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in just some random places, because we didn't have a very good level of Jiu-Jitsu for Vancouver Island, which is the far western side of British Columbia, Canada. Then, Rob opened up shop, and he moved in. We heard that there was a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts in the area that just opened up a shop. The great thing about Jiu-Jitsu is that we get to roll and we get to test and we get to see if people are actually legit, because the mats don't lie. I went at Rob with everything I had, and he absolutely mopped the floor with me, crushed me. At that point, I was just like, "Man, this guy can absolutely mess me up. I know that I can learn from him." Then, the seven-and-a-half years that I've been training with Rob now, he's obviously opened my eyes up to a conceptual approach to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which is what I try to emphasize for myself when I'm teaching, especially on the YouTube channel to try and have something that differentiates from the rest of the many, many YouTube videos out there, especially on Jiu-Jitsu. I've gotten to see how good of an instructor he actually is, which is not something that-- I knew he was good and that he was way better than me when I was obviously a white belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and he can mop the floor with me, but all the way up to now, where I'm now a black belt under him, I can now see why he is regarded as a high-level instructor across the world, and why he actually has some notoriety now across the world, and why guys like Yuri Simoes now has got Rob to come out three times now to help him with ADCC camps, which is absolutely insane, as Rob's developed relationships with Caio Terra and Yuri Simoes, that he's the real thing. I've been very fortunate to learn from him. **Sonny:** Yes, I knew he had that relationship with Caio Terra and Yuri Simoes, and he seems like a very switched on individual, I will say, and knows what he's talking about, has a good way of expressing it. One of the things that I see you talk about a lot and Rob talk about is this concept of alignment, which I believe you have broken down into base, posture, and structure, and you say that this is the most important concept in Jiu-Jitsu. I think everyone, if you've been doing Jiu-Jitsu, you would probably have an intrinsic understanding of this in one way or another, but you've really laid it out well for everyone. I wonder if you could go over that for people who maybe haven't heard those terms thrown around yet? **Rory:** Yes. Alignment is the overarching concept of everything that we do when there's physical performance involved. Alignment is our body's ability to generate and absorb force maximally and relative to our goals. The relative to the goals part is the really important part, because Jiu-Jitsu is so complicated with all the different positions that we have, that what is considered good alignment isn't the easiest thing to recognize at first, but alignment is comprised of three things: we have posture, the integrity of our spinal column. For the most part, being able to keep our spine straight obviously allows our body to act as a kinetic chain connecting our lower body to our upper body, so that we can work efficiently. We all know, and we've all been taught from a younger age, don't lift things with a curved back, and do not try to explode in positions with your spine twisted. If you can keep your spine relatively straight, even a little bit of a rounding to it is usually quite natural in certain positions, you're going to be able to be more effective. Then, we have structure, which is the efficient, effective positioning of our limbs and relative to our goals. This is talking about our arms and our legs, and what our goals are, and how we need to have our limbs' position. Frames is a concept that we hear getting used a lot more now in Jiu-Jitsu, where we're talking about using rigid supports, rigid structures to be able to support weight and to generate some force or to keep distance between us and our opponent, which we're using our bones to be aligned in a certain way to be able to achieve that. Locking my arm out would give me structure as a frame that now I'm able to support a heck of a lot of weight, versus, say, if somebody is trying to armbar me, then obviously, I don't want my arm to be fully extended in this circumstance, because my goal is to keep my arm from being extended. I want to get my arm in super close to my body. I want to cover it with my other arm on top, and even if I can start bringing my knees up to my elbows and starting to shell up as much as I can, I'm going to become more efficient, and I'm going to be able to resist a higher output of force to keep my arm from being pulled away from me. Structure is usually the hardest one to understand when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu, because it is the one that changes most often. Base is a platform from which to apply and absorb force maximally relative to your goals. For us, base is almost always drive from the ground, obviously, but sometimes, it can also be generated off of our opponent. For example, if I was just using a recumbent guard, supine guard, off of my back, and I have my feet on my opponent's hips, I'm going to be able to mobilize my hips and lift off by creating a bridging motion by having my feet pushing into my opponent's hips, and because I drive into my opponent's hips, and my opponent's feet are then connected to the ground, I'm still generating force in a way off of the ground, but it's through my opponent. Base is one that is extremely important, because obviously, if you can't generate force, then you're not going to be able to make any of these techniques work. Something as simple as live toes in which you have your toes actually curled, engaged into the mat, rather than dead toes, as we call it, where you have just the flats, the tops of your feet, just sitting on top of the mat, is going to allow you to be able to generate a lot more force. Alignment, like the example that I usually use when I'm trying to explain this to someone on their first day, is think of weightlifting. There, we're very used to that you have to have a specific alignment for each different exercise that you're trying to perform. The alignment that you need for benchpress is obviously very different than the alignment that you need for a squat or a deadlift, but there is a very specific way that you need to have your structure, as in your limbs, aligned, a very specific way you need your posture aligned, and a very specific way that you need your baseline, so that you're going to be able to generate the maximum amount of force to be able to perform the movements safely, as well as being able to optimize the efficiency and the effectiveness of how much weight that you can actually move. It's a big, broad thing that I try and wrap into every [technique that I teach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/). Where is the alignment? Because for us, the goal in Jiu-Jitsu is to keep yourself in alignment at all times and to break your opponent's alignment to create vulnerability. Then, you move forward, whether that's just moving a forward in passes, in dominant positions, in sweep attempts, or especially, when we're looking at submitting somebody. I don't think that you can submit somebody unless they're just not moving at all if you don't break their alignment. If I can stay in proper alignment, and I can make somebody a fraction as effective as they normally would be by breaking their posture, structure, and base, it doesn't matter how good they are at Jiu-Jitsu, because they're not going to be optimized to fight back. **Sonny:** That's a good understanding of those concepts that we can give to students. You mentioned that you will explain it to students while your teaching techniques, so I'm wondering how in-depth you go on those ideas when you're teaching techniques. Then, how do you actually get them to internalize those concepts? **Rory:** For us, at Island Top Team, Rob's academy here in British Columbia, we do a half hour or 20-minute introductory class for everybody, in that where we meet up with the students right before class happens and we go through those concepts specifically and show it with the example of the technical stand up. This is where I will spend 20 minutes to half an hour talking just about alignment frames and levers with somebody on their first day to help them understand what's going on. Typically, to first help them internalize what's going on, I'll show them the movement. I'll teach them how the concepts are taking place. Then, I'll also have certain ways that I will rest weight onto them or have them try and complete the movement. I screw them up by just grabbing their leg and pulling it out or pushing them over, so that then they can see through a process of success and failure why, all of a sudden, a movement, all of a sudden, at the end of the 20 minutes, it's become much easier for them to hold or perform versus when they were first trying to do it at the beginning of class. That's where I will really go on tangents talking about that stuff longer. Otherwise, in class, depending on what our movements are for us, when we first are teaching our 101 fundamentals curriculum at Island Top Team, the emphasis isn't on submissions, it's on learning how to control your own body, and then learning how to control your opponent's body, first and foremost, as I was talking about. Learn how to keep yourself in alignment, and then learn how to positionally control and break your opponent's alignment. There is going to be a lot of overlap, and we will be talking about that stuff. Whenever I'm teaching that technique, I'm usually going to first be talking about how we're starting in the position or how we're going to move into that position, keeping ourselves in alignment, and then what our goals are, depending on if we're looking at taking them back or just moving in a mount, near right, guard passing, sweeps, what we're going to be doing to affect our opponents alignment with specific movements. Instead of me just saying, "Place your foot here, and then push on the hips with the tripod sweep to knock them over," I'm telling them that we're placing our frame against our opponent's hips. We have both legs controlled, so that we're limiting how much they can base, so that they're unable to actively post and recorrect for the force that we're going to be generating into them. Then, we're tipping their center of gravity outside of their platform of support, which is going to now cause them to fall down. It's going to be something that's always explained through each one of these techniques. I'm never going to just tell somebody to do a certain move, regardless of how small it is. Every grip, every placement on our opponent, every placement on the ground has to be able to be explained as logic and with the concepts behind it, because Jiu-Jitsu is governed by these concepts of physics. Stuff like gravity, it's always there. We can't ignore it. I'm not going to tell somebody that they have to grab somewhere on the Gi for just no reason. I want to tell them where they have to grip it. It doesn't have to be as exact, like, oh, it has to be exactly three inches down from the collar or three inches around on the sleeve or this exact spot. It has to be able to be related to a concept, whether it has to do with alignment or a frame or a lever, a wedge, a center of gravity, momentum, stuff explains that these students understand the purpose behind the movements that they're doing and why it's important to do it right. **Sonny:** Okay, that makes sense, giving them that real meaning behind everything they're doing from a scientific perspective. You definitely have that science-based approach to Jiu-Jitsu. I wonder, how do you look at the way you approach things? Do you consider yourself working in a science lab compared to how other people might do it? Would you say that other people might be more looking at it like an art and you guys are taking the science approach, or do you feel that science is the approach to take with Jiu-Jitsu? **Rory:** I think that good Jiu-Jitsu that we're seeing is going through a scientific approach. Competition is what sets Jiu-Jitsu apart from everything else in the life sparring aspect. For us, we get to see a filtration process of guys at the highest level, and that's where we try and draw our techniques from and what we try and use as this threshold for what we think is effective. We want to see high-level black belts competing on the world's biggest stages and seeing what they're doing or what works, because what we try and save always at the very beginning is we're teaching our students to beat black belts and the world's best black belts. It doesn't matter if someone's a hobbyist or if they're only looking to come in a couple of times a week or if they have no aspirations of ever competing or ever even trying to be that good at Jiu-Jitsu. I want to teach somebody how to beat somebody that's really good at Jiu-Jitsu. Then, that way, they're covered for everything underneath that. What I'm not interested in teaching somebody-- This is where I have a problem with stuff like the self-defense stuff and how it's taught, is we're going to talk about the big drunken haymaker that somebody throws at you. We're going to work on only that. Well, the problem is, is that then when you go up against somebody who's really skilled, you're not covered for that, and you're going to get lit up. If you know how to defend against a proper jab and cross and hook that a trained boxer would be throwing at you, then when a drunk person tries to slap you across the face, it's extremely easy, or at least easier, to deal with, depending on, obviously, all the variables in that given situation. For us, we want to observe stuff working at the highest level. We're constantly observing, which is a big part of the scientific method. Then, for us, the conceptual framework allows us to see whether it's us trying to come up with our own little variations of techniques or we're trying to break down and explain why somebody is doing something. For me, with the Gordon Ryan series, I'm looking at this, I'm seeing Gordon use these techniques at the highest level. Something that Gordon is doing here is working very well. Now, I'm going to try and explain through these concepts of posture, structure, and base, frames, levers, and wedges, and the center of gravity and momentum, et cetera, to is this holding up? Does this make sense? Which, obviously, it is holding up, because he's making it work at the highest level. This is where we see stuff where, whether we want to consider it the artistic approach-- There's a lot of crap on YouTube and Instagram, as I'm sure you can agree, that we see, where somebody just shows something super flashy and cool. Everyone's just loving it on the Instagram feed. I'm personally looking at it going, "That is absolute garbage. It's never going to work on anybody good." It starts to rival on Kata levels of just-- You're almost doing it like a dance, where you're doing this against a cooperative opponent. If somebody actually knew what they're doing and wants to shut it down, while the move looks cool, it's fundamentally incorrect, because the person is doing it with broken alignment. They're bending their leg up in some super flexible way that externally rotates their hips, that one, a lot of people wouldn't be able to do, but let alone, it puts you in this compromised position that makes you more prone to injury and will not allow you to generate as much force as you would if you kept yourself in a better alignment with a leg press motion. That scientific approach, we observe stuff work at the highest level, we can then start to break down why it's working at a fundamental level, the conceptual level, and then attempt to replicate it. When we're doing our own replication is through an experimentation process, where we are obviously working with usually lower-level people at first. Then, as we start to gain success with that, the goals are to consistently keep increasing the resistance and the skill level. When we first start drilling something, we work something with a white belt, and we just keep on playing around with our white belt students and just doing the move to them over and over again, or even a couple of times in a round. Then, you start testing on the blue belt students, the purple belts, the brown belts, the black belts. Then, you start cross-training potentially, and you're training with other black belts. Then, you're trying to make this stuff work in competition, which is obviously the highest level that we're looking to achieve. Then, if you can make it work in competition, aside from the fact that we have to account for the variables of-- Obviously, there's no rules in the street and yada, yada, multiple opponents. If you can make stuff work in competition under stress, then you're also going to be able to have a higher chance of being able to make the stuff work in a self-defense situation. That's where sport and self-defense becomes very combined in their effectiveness, but that scientific approach, it has to be tested, and that's how we know where a technique is valid or not. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me, especially that, as long as someone's doing well in competition, then you have to imagine that they're going to be good in a self-defense scenario as well. I know there's some people think that sports Jiu-Jitsu takes away from that self defense side, but I do feel that if someone's good in the sport context, then they're probably going to be able to translate that to an untrained attacker. It's funny you mentioned the Instagram stuff. You called it a dancing off, settled on thinking of it as a pro wrestling demonstration now, which people are putting on their best moves that they can possible for the camera. I think it's certainly an interesting aspect of the sport that's taken over a lot of people's time, it seems. When you go into then mentioning how you drill, one concept that I know you guys do, or one method, is something called F Your Jiu-Jitsu, and I thought that was really interesting. You mentioned about being able to work your skills up along from white to blue to purple, but you have this interesting way of drilling that-- Well, I'll let you explain it. It gives people some resistance, but it gives them the opportunity to work as well. I wonder if you can explain that a bit more. **Rory:** Yes, Rob's really good at naming stuff, and so he calls it F Your Jiu-Jitsu. For the kids' class, we just call it Frames and Levers, or if I'm going to be teaching seminars on this stuff, Frames and Levers is a great way of just explaining it when we're trying not to just swear in front of people, or keep it at more professional context. F Your Jiu-Jitsu is really just like positional sparring. It's just going to be in the bigger areas of-- Usually, guard passing and guard sweeping would be the two main areas that we emphasize this kind of training. What we're doing, because those areas become so broad, and there's so many different ways that these scenarios can play out, is that we've placed restrictions on the individuals while they're doing it, so if we're going to talk about, say, F Your Jiu-Jitsu sweeping, this is for the person on bottom to develop their sweeps. The person on bottom is not allowed to go for submissions. They can play any guard they want, and their job is to sweep their opponent. The person on top is not allowed to try any guard passing, is not allowed to pass their [training partner's guard at any point](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/), and they're not allowed to go for submissions. Their job is to purely just prevent the sweeps from occurring, and how deep they let their training partner get into certain sweeping positions and guards is up to them and their comfortability as they're getting used to it. For me, if you and I were to do a F Your Jiu-Jitsu sweeping round, I would just walk over top of you, and my goal is to allow you to establish any kind of guard you want, which is probably going to be your best guard, especially if I'm not shutting you down, which is a great way of training with people when you first meet them, whether it's just in a sparring aspect. You get the sparring and the drilling out of the way first, and then you're going to get subsequent training sessions in. I want to see what people from other gyms are going to do that's going to be different than what I'm used to, because obviously, every gym is going to have a different set of techniques that they're usually very developed at. I am going to stop you from sweeping me. This is the playful part that's hard for people at first, is that they're not comfortable controlling their center of gravity and their base or just their alignment, in general. If somebody puts me in X guard, now, I can be very comfortable balancing on one foot, and then accessing the legs as levers, grabbing up with the toes or grabbing the gi and unwinding control to get myself back to-- whether it's just off of my opponent, where we'd be creating that distance that we'd be able to start initiating guard passing within a regular sparring instance, or just staying on top as long as I can, and just seeing how long I can stop my opponent from being able to sweep me. Now, the great part about it is that if they sweep me, we just reset, because what we do is, we do a six-minute rounds, three minutes each for a turn, so as soon as my training partner has swept me and has actually consolidated the sweep, which is a big part of what I think people really suck at at lower levels when it comes to sweeping, is that they can knock their opponent's butt to the ground, but if they're not effectively controlling the legs, denying their opponent's ability to generate base and get back up or just run away, then the sweep doesn't actually matter. You have to knock the person down. You have to then keep them down and then get up yourself, so that part, there is a fight. I'm not just going to let the person come up on top. They have to knock me down, and then I'm going to try and get back on top of them. If they do seal the sweep and put me down, then we just reset. That's the part that I think is extremely important with these ideas when we're going to be drilling, sweeping, or guard passing, et cetera, where I'm able to be playful and the consequences are minimum, in the sense that I just get to experience that there was failure, and hopefully, I can start to pick up why there was failure on my part, so I can correct it, but I get to go right back to it and experiment and play with it again. If I get into your X guard and you sweep me, then great, that's fantastic. I'm going to now try and get back into that X guard, that same position, because now, I want you to try it again, and I want to see if I can correct it. We get to be playful with it and we get to increase our exposure in these certain areas without that punishment where, say, F Your Jiu-Jitsu guard passing, the person on bottom now is only allowed guard retention movements. They're not allowed to establish any kind of guards or grips or hooks or clamps on your opponent that would slow you down. Essentially, you just stay on a ball in your back with knee-elbow connection. You're not going to let your opponent pass your guard by any means, and you can certainly grip the gi or grip their opponent's wrists or head if it's needed to for a specific guard retention movement, but you're letting go immediately. The person on top is now unobstructed and able to throw as many passes at you as they want, because you're not holding them down. They get to work on their passing and their combinations. If we were playing like that in a regular round and you pass my guard, I'm now going to have the experience of the cross face and just dominant pressure from somebody, where it's like, "Oh, man, I want to work on my guard retention, but if I fail, I'm now going to get crushed for the next five minutes until the rounds over, so that sucks. I didn't get to really maximize my efficiency training in this one area." As soon as the person has passed my guard within this drill that we're doing, they just immediately go back to passing my guard again. They give up the position, they go back, so I get to work and maximize my time in areas, and that's what we're trying to do with those, where it's just about maximizing the efficiency in certain areas through exposure. Just like any positional sparring, when someone's working on side control or mount or back control, it's the same thing, it's just, for us, we're doing it within those areas of guard sweeping and denying sweeps, as well as guard passing and guard retention, which is an extremely important area that's hard to develop for new people. Then, we also deal with top control in the sense that, instead of doing it like side control, like the traditional sparring, where I'm going to just try and hold side control as hard as I can, and if I can use heavy pressure and cross-face and underhook, I can hold you there. There's a place for that, absolutely. It's very important to practice that, but we like to also emphasize movement. It's going to be top control sparring, but I am not allowed to establish chest-to-chest connection with my opponent on bottom. When I'm controlling side control, I can go knee ride, I can use my arms to pin their arms or to control their gi, to try and break their posture, but I'm not ever allowed to actually drop myself down, establish chest connection and use that for direct rotational control of their body, because that's, in our mind, the lowest form of control, in the sense where I can stop my opponent from moving, but it doesn't take a lot of finesse or work to be able to necessarily do it. We want to encourage our students to experiment and play with different ways that they can use levers to execute rotational control over them, and through that, they will fail, but through that failure, they will learn how to correct that, because then it just becomes through a process of elimination, plus also just adaptive learning, where they're going to be seeing failure and success on the fly while they're sparring. **Sonny:** Yes, I really love that idea and love that concept that you've got there of just being able to get people to maximize their training time, giving students that opportunity to fail and fail quickly, and then they can have the opportunity to correct those in the same round or the same allotment of time. I can't wait to get back on the mat and play around with that a bit. One of the things you touched on there is the maximizing of training time. I know you put out a video that said that one way to do that was to have white belts not actually training their closed guard or not use closed guard. I think it had a bit of a controversial title or something, but you still mentioned then the importance of guard retention, so I wonder if you can explain that, how you can justify, with the importance of guard retention, not having beginners train their closed guard. **Rory:** Okay. There's a idea in traditional Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that closed guard is the ultimate weapon, and it is very powerful, but the problem with closed guard is that it's extremely effective at the beginning, and then closed guard, you don't see it as much at the higher levels, and that's not to say that it's not effective, because Sean J. Ribeiro is arm-barring people from closed guard at ADCC. It's an extremely effective guard, but it is very hard to master. It becomes a safety net for beginners, and people will always take the path of least resistance. When we're talking about egos on the line, especially for beginners, like when we're tired and people need to survive a round or try to stop their guard from getting past or to delay a tap, being able to wrap your legs around somebody and just clamp really tight, it really shuts people down. If you took a 300-pound white belt and just told him to wrap his legs around me and squeeze and just hold it for as long as you can and not try anything else, even as a black belt at 180 pounds, it's going to be quite difficult for me to get out of that. They're not going to be effective, they're not going to threaten me in any kind of way. Certainly, if there was a rule set like MMA or self-defense, where I'm able to strike that person, then closed guards not actually going to necessarily be the dominant position there. In Jiu-Jitsu, without strikes, we can hold closed guard with no consequence. This is what we see too often, when I was training Jiu-Jitsu with my friend, Jimmy, before Robin opened up shop in then IMO, our rounds were either a lot of great Jiu-Jitsu, because Jimmy could not establish his closed guard on me, or he caught me in closed guard, and we spent the entire round there. I'm sure you've-- Whether it was just someone who's really good or especially when you're first learning, you've probably had this, where you were stuck in somebody's closed guard for an entire round. Now, it's important to develop closed guard and our defenses against closed guard and have those kinds of rounds. For us, we do not allow anyone under blue belt to use closed guard while sparring in the gym at Island Top Team , and that's because we want to allow people to continually move and be exposed to more Jiu-Jitsu. When someone is forced to develop their guard retention, or even just more open guards like De La Riva, which is a great option for someone who's looking to first pick a guard to develop. De La Riva, you still have less control over your opponent, less control in the sense that you can just spam a move and just hold somebody like a cheat code. You have to know how to cause good Kuzushis, off balances to affect your opponent's alignment. You need to be able to quickly change sweeps, because if you just get a De La Riva hook and grab your opponent's ankle, you can't just hold them there for as long as you can with closed guard. With that, they're going to develop more dynamic sweeps, and their partner is going to have more ability to actually try and change passes, so they get to get better and they get to shut down De La Riva as well. Then, with that, because the person on top will have an easier time shedding the control, especially at lower levels who don't know how to control these guards, they're going to be able to throw those passes, which then will force the person on bottom to have to use more guard retention movements. That's the key part is instead of focusing on this one area, like closed guard, because I know some people are very traditional, and they're like, "No. Closed guard is absolutely where you need to start. It is the fundamental basis of Jiu-Jitsu," which I don't agree with, people will develop that closed guard. Yes, if I get stuck in that person's closed guard, it's going to be a nightmare. If that person can't wrap their legs around me, which is not a very hard range to stay away from at first, especially when we're standing, because closed guard isn't really the appropriate range they're trying to gauge, then I find way too often people all the way up to brown belt that I've trained with, where they're so good at closed guard, but as soon as they're unable to establish that range and play that game, their guards become very easy to pass. For us, it's just about, as you're saying, what's the way to maximize exposure to all the different kinds of Jiu-Jitsu areas that we need to develop, rather than giving somebody this one power move that they can hold on to, and it allows them to survive or even win a round? Jiu-Jitsu, when we're learning in the gym, it's not about winning. That should not be how we're trying to measure success. It's about how much we're getting exposed to different movements and overall development of our game. **Sonny:** Well, that seemed like a controversial statement at the start, but I think you've explained that quite logically, as well as a way that-- **Rory:** I'm going to Reddit it, too. Actually, it was the first time- the threads still up there as evidence- where people would disagree with me at the beginning, and then, as I make those logical points, which are all the points I'm just parroting from my instructor, [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki")-- He's a brilliant practitioner and instructor. Once we make those points, then people look at it and go, "You know what, actually, I think I agree with you," and it's like, "Holy shit, did we just have a internet discussion that was civil where I actually changed somebody's opinion? Mind-blowing. **Sonny:** That's rare. That's very rare, especially in this day and age. That's a good testament to the foundation of your idea, I think, that that's even possible. **Rory:** Obviously, if we're practicing a competition, then we have to have our white belts and blue belts start to spar with the closed guard. We'll do that within positional sparring rounds, or the higher belts, we'll use closed guard on them, because, like I said, white belts aren't allowed to use closed guard, but a blue belt could use closed guard against the white belts if they wanted to. It's one of those, one's allowed to use it, but not the other, because obviously, we can't have these stipulations in place and then send one of our white belts into a competition, where they're most likely-- Most white belts at other gyms, closed guard is the first guard they work on. If we have that informational asymmetry in place, then we're just setting wipeouts up to go out, and it's like, "They're super good at passing, and they're super good at staying on top, but if they get stuck in closed guard, they're absolutely screwed in the situation." We never want that, so we do try and set them up for success the best we can by still making sure we're developing it. We're never avoiding something entirely, because ignorance is never the right response for anything. **Sonny:** Open and closed guard for white belts just, in general, seems to be one of the biggest sticking points, especially in competitions where people do just lock down on it like life or death, which I think even gives more credence to what you're saying before about it just being maybe too powerful of a position for people to be able to hold. You mentioned at the end that ignorance of things isn't good, which, of course, I'm in agreement with. Then, we also do mention about training only the high percentage moves. I'm wondering where you would fit low percentage moves into teaching students, just so that they're actually aware of things? Is that something that you have to balance? Will you show a low percentage move just so that they have at least seen it, or will you teach it legitimately, or will you put a caveat on something when you show it? How do you tackle that? **Rory:** Whether it's where we had first talked about this stuff in the past when we were talking about calf slicers-- I have a video where I shit on calf slicers and I think that they lack effectiveness at the highest levels. In Jiu-Jitsu, almost anything can be dangerous if somebody does not know how to react to it, whether it's because the move itself does have a certain degree of effectiveness, whether we're talking about just the mechanical strength of the move, or because somebody just doesn't know what to do, and they end up twisting or yanking the wrong way, and then they can certainly just hurt themselves. Anything could be potentially dangerous, and so for us say something like the Americana-- Here's an example of a move that is mechanically strong, as in it will absolutely devastate your shoulder through external rotation, but it is not tactically plausible. It's very hard to actually establish the figure four for an Americana regardless of where you are, but especially if we're looking at it from Americana keylock from side control, topside control. I will show the students how the move is done, so that they can understand it, and they can understand the risk of it. The person can one, learn how to do the move, because I want to teach every student as if they're going to become an instructor one day. They need to know how to teach these things, even if it's something that they don't. Then, the person on bottom also then gets to experience this, and this Americana being taken to an extent that they feel that they need to tackle drilling within a gentle, safe environment where we're just passively repping back and forth on each other. It's very important for them to know that and to experience that, and then we'll show them how to shut it down. Now, I don't care if somebody ever-- For me, I can't tell you the last time I drilled in Americana. It's one of those moves that it's very simple to do if you actually have it. I've definitely spent a couple full days probably training this thing over the years when I was lower belts, so it's like I know how to perform the move effectively, but it's quite simple once you get it. It's just a matter of actually setting that thing up. Some of those moves, I don't think much time needs to be spent on it, but certainly we need to still show them how it works, so that one, they know what the move is. I don't have a purple belt where if someone's like, "Hey, can you show me a keylock?" "I have no idea what you're talking about." That wouldn't look good, as well as then, I can't know that they're going to know how to defend that. If we look at calf slicers, calf slicers is a move that does still work up to an even higher level, where typically, when you're seeing this stuff happen-- When I was doing the little bit of research I was on calf slicers in just grappling events, not MMA, typically, they ended up topping out around brown belt. You'd see brown belt fight to win events or Jiu-Jitsu competitions where the calf slicer's starting to happen, but they're no longer happening at brown belt. Now, there's a whole bunch of reasons why I think that's happening, but it can absolutely still hurt people. Even for myself, I'm a black ball, but my knee, I have a hard time compressing my heels to my butt through a bunch of flexibility of workouts and stretching. I can now do it much more comfortably when I'm warmed up, but I would be one of those people that is more susceptible to actually getting damaged by a calf slicer. It's one of those like it will work. It is dependent on certain variables in a situation, which is typically someone's flexibility, which at the highest level, most people are very flexible, more so than the average person. We have to go over the calf slicer. I have to show people how to do a calf slicer if they want to try a calf slicer. It's one of those moves that it's a stopping point along the way of taking the back anyway. If we're looking at it from say that basic truck position, then I don't have a problem with somebody doing a low risk, low percentage move. They're not trying to go for something where if they shit the bed with it, they end up on bottom or even possibly getting their guard pass. That would be unacceptable in my eyes. Suddenly the calf slicer, they can be in the truck position, they can check the leg out, they can test it. If it doesn't work, no big deal. Go back to controlling the offset of their opposed body and just keep migrating towards the back and then try and finish them from there. Under that from its tactical possibility, I'm fine with it in the sense that it can be done safely and from different ways and we don't have to give up position. It's just not mechanically strong enough in my eyes to be something where if somebody wants to spend time developing a system around it and their whole game, it's like, okay, you're going to have success at all these different levels. If their goal is not to compete at the higher the world's elite stage, then that's fine. I still think that it's worthwhile to be training at moves that are always effective no matter what. It's always about just introducing somebody to the move and then making sure that they know the defenses to it. That's where we'll spend, we'll make sure that they know how to train how to apply a calf slicer the best that they can set. Then now we can start working on the defenses for that. Then that way hopefully if we're working on defenses to a move that these people also know how to, we're starting to mitigate the false positives that would be in play in the sense that if I teach somebody how to do a calf slicer poorly or only allow them to spend five minutes on it and then I start working for the rest of the week on defensive defense to the calf slicer, then these students are going to develop defenses against a really crappy calf slicer and then they're going to think that they're really good at their calf slicer defense when in reality the person that is trying to apply the calf slicer just really sucks at it. Even these low percentage moves, I still need them to be effective at them so that they can at least help the development of the defensive movements, which is ultimately the more important thing that the goal that I'm trying to reach when I'm teaching students. **Sonny:** I like that, to focus on just giving them that introduction, but making sure they know the defense as a way to teach those low percentage moves, that really clicks for me makes a lot of sense. **Rory:** Because any move will be potentially dangerous. **Sonny:** Yes, as you mentioned, any move being potentially dangerous, you brought up the idea of a false positive and I think that's a really good concept from science that can translate into Jiu-Jitsu because it's something that when you explained it, it's something I know that I've fell for myself in the past with a move that I've hit a couple of times in training and then I've spent way too long trying to replicate it again and not being able to get the same effect that I got those couple of times. I wonder, can you explain, what that idea is to you or false positives in Jiu-Jitsu and how that can hinder people's development? **Rory:** Absolutely. A false positive, basically look at it as a cause and effect fallacy where B happens, so therefore A caused B. What typically happens is that you apply submission on somebody and so we think that submission is awesome, but what we don't know is that there's a bunch of other variables at play. When we're looking at something say the calf slicer, I apply a calf slicer to somebody and they tap to it, I think therefore calf slicers are amazing and that they work. We might be negating the idea that maybe this person has just never trained leg locks before and they don't know it. I think this was why the calf slicer is more prevalent at brown belt and then they start to fade out at black belt is that because of the bullshit IBGGF rules on leg locks, people aren't allowed to look at toeholds and knee bars and calf slicers until they get up to the Brown belt level. Therefore people don't need to actually really work on stuff until they start getting closer to that point. If they're looking at that rule set, I still think that all leg locks, including heel hooks should be trained even at white belt for people because it can be done safe. People will try and play the game and the rules in the competitions that they're looking to compete at and IBGGF is at the forefront of that. All of a sudden people are coming out and getting calf sliced and they're not as developed against it. Then we got to look at people that aren't as flexible. Calf slicer is done with the idea that the person is not flexible enough to be able to eat a calf slicer because calf slicer is a compression based lock. Basically, all we're doing is we're creating a wedge where we're shoving our shin in behind our opponent's knee. Then, we're looking to compress our opponent's heel towards their butt as far as we can with access on the leg as a lever. Hopefully, that person is not flexible enough to be able to bend their leg all the way down to their hips while there is this wedge in place. Unfortunately, a lot of people at higher levels are able to do that. When you apply it, because this is where some people really argue with me on my video is they're like, "Oh well, my own knee exploded from a calf slicer. There's a break where I got actually hurt. How dare you tell me that calf slicers aren't effective?" Well, I don't care that you're a blue belt who's 45 years old who has a job and a family, you're not the person that I'm trying to aim to achieve at to try and submit here. It's, yes, you have to respect a calf slicer in the same way that I myself have to respect a calf slicer because of my own functional limitations of movement. If you put Gordon Ryan or Caio Terra or Vinny Magalhães in a calf slicer, you're never going to be able to do anything that causes actual damage to the person or let alone catastrophic damage where we can actually take that limb out of working use because that's like our goal. We want to be able to with submissions against the limbs when we're looking at joint locks, not just like a light pop of something or a tweak of the knee. We need to actually be able to cause catastrophic damage that impedes the person from being able to fight any longer. Even that, we still see like varying limits of success with other submissions as well. As long as we're trying to focus it on the highest, the cream of the crop on the most flexible and the strongest individuals, then as I've been saying, then we're covered for everything underneath that. We're always trying to look at documented breaks at the highest level and consistent taps. That's where heel hooks, we see people's knees get absolutely just devastated where they can't go on. Then we still see even the heel hook where we look at Craig Jones versus Vinny Magalhães just recently. While he did significantly hurt Vinny, it was at least so far it looks like a different part of Vinny's ankle that was injured instead of his knee. They still talked about it for a while throughout the match before Vinny actually came to agreement to just stop there. Vinny was able to stand up and keep fighting. Here's someone who is extremely flexible and strong and a talented black belt and he was able to eat this thing and it still hurt him devastatingly, but he was still able to stand on it afterwards. You're always going to have certain limited success once we get to the highest level like that, but something a calf slicer, we never see it at the higher levels. When we even see it in MMA, then we have to now take into context the grappling experience between the individuals there because we will have that asymmetrical information between the two where one person is nowhere near the same grappling level. Maybe it's a striker versus grappler, maybe it's too low level grapplers. Maybe it's a high level grappler versus a low level grappler. There's all these variables we have to take in the place of why this submission works. We want to see the submissions work, but we also want to see them work consistently because even calf slicers, there are a few instances of them working at the highest level at black belt. It's there. It's just something that when we're talking about efficient use of our time, most of us aren't training 40 hours a week and looking to become world champions and doing steroids to be able to keep that training up for years and years. When I have people that are only training as hobbyists even, and they're training two times a week, maybe two hours a session, they don't have time to develop all the different areas of Jiu-Jitsu or spend time developing an area just to have to throw it away, essentially, once they get to a certain point, like, "Oh, calf slicers did me really good up until brown belt, but now that I'm black belt, I'm going to have to redo the stuff." No, I want them to learn something, a technique like say a heel hook effectively at white belt. Then that way they're able to take it with them all the way to black belt and all they've had to do is continue refining that technique just they would their guard passes or the guard retention movements and they're going to be that much more effective at it and it's going to be something that they can tap anybody with and they'd never have to get rid of that. That's where I think Rob's done such a good job with the after to Jiu-Jitsu approach, the ways we drill and the techniques that he will specifically show and what he wants us to spend more time on than others, allow some of our students to be very effective grapplers within a much shorter time frame. When I think of the grappler I was at about five years of training. I'm just disgusted when I see some of these guys at three months demonstrating stuff and they're passing in their guard retention in ways that I just was unable to because I didn't have that kind of training because it was before I trained with Rob. **Sonny:** Okay yes that makes a lot of sense. I think it's interesting you bring up the Vinny Magalhães knee break or ankle break there in regards to false positives. Because I was thinking about it and Vinny mentioned that he had really flexible feet obviously beforehand and he made leg walks don't work his mantra or his brand. I was thinking like okay if he does have these really flexible feet he's obviously been getting away with it in training a lot where people would have been putting him into heel hooks and taking his heel to an awkward angle and Vinny wasn't having to tap to that. Because we can see that the angle that Craig did have to take to actually get the break. **Rory:** Ruthless. **Sonny:** Ruthless right? In training people would have been taking it to weird angles and probably thinking, "Whoa," backing off and Vinny is not tapping and he would have been getting that feedback that leg locks don’t work but obviously they do. **Rory:** Yes, and I think even a mindset of leg locks don't necessarily work as well on me would have been a more honest way of-- It doesn't sell as well obviously and you don't want to make it into assured. But it's like okay he could understand and he always explained that for him he is extremely flexible and he is very strong and he's obviously a very technical black belt. Leg locking Vinny is why he'd never got submitted for so many years. Most people could look at that and go, "No, that is such an outlier of the situation. Where like that's rare, that we can't even really consider that." Vinny has his own little pocket over there or something like calf slicers we can look at. I'm not the only one that says it. Even Ryan Hall in his most recent Modern 50 50 instructional said that nobody taps the calf slicer. So it's like if Ryan says it then it's more okay obviously. He's much more renowned and respected because of his competition experience and what he's done like in the UFC and grappling as a whole with instruction. **Sonny:** Yes, no, I agree with that. You did mention that I put out a video on calf slices and I think it just happened to be the same week I put out a video on calf slices in MMA. You happen to put out a video why calf slices are terrible and you should never use them. I thought that was a complete coincidence but it was a funny coincidence nonetheless. **Rory:** Then someone could still look at what you had talked about and be like okay if I'm competing MMA and that's my goal we are seeing the success of calf slicers in MMA. So if the person isn't as competent as a grappler then absolutely calf slicers can be effectively used. **Sonny:** But I still think there is that the benefit of just looking at the high percentage ones in the first goal of anyone in MMA should be take the back, choke them out. Take them down past guard, get in the back, choke them out with a rear-naked choke. . **Rory:** Especially in MMA where you have so many different things to learn. Because you have to now become a jack of all trades with your striking, with your clench and with your grappling. Absolutely, any of those guys that got calf sliced in that-- It was great compilation and breakdown that you did that I bet any one of them could also have been heel hooks. And by practicing heel hooks you would have gotten all those guys and then you would have then also created a failsafe system that now you're going to be able to take it to the higher level so that when they're competing in a higher level MMA events and going up potentially a good leg lock they're going to be able to have a higher chance to finish them as well. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. I'd agree with that. One thing I've also thought about with that idea of false positives is that classic Bruce Lee saying roughly is take what's useful to you, discard what's useless and add uniquely your own. I feel like now that that can be overused for people to justify low percentage moves or things that they're getting false positives. They can just turn around and go it's what Bruce Lee says, it works for me so I'm going to keep it in my game. But the way you're approaching it I think makes a lot more sense. Not that I'm saying Bruce Lee is wrong. I just think that that phrase's been repurposed for a lot of people to just train stuff that doesn't have that high percentage utility. One thing we've talked about, the F your Jiu-Jitsu, the concepts and ways to drill techniques. When people are just doing the traditional drilling in your class what would be-- Is it like we've seen most people would drill in their school or is there something just about your traditional drilling when you guys are getting in reps that you do differently or that you think most people should be doing that they aren't? **Rory:** It's not too much different. Obviously, when we're teaching we teach systems of anything. So it's always interconnected techniques. We have modules that go through the fundamentals every week or sometimes two weeks and then for a more advanced it's one month modules. Where if we're going to be talking about Kimura control we're doing only Kimuras for the entire month so that people are going to be able to keep stacking upon techniques. When we get people to drill, they're first shown a technique and we really emphasize the idea that it's not just one person drilling at a time. Like the usual where you have the person perform a move in the uke. You have both people getting better together. So we need to have the training partner. Whether it's just knowing the proper-- Like if say we're doing closed guard, I'm going to teach them closed guard stuff I need the person on top to also know how to properly put themselves in alignment in closed guard and be able to create little bit of resistance and know how to effectively respond so that the person who's drilling close guard is going to be able to do it against somebody who's a better training partner rather than somebody who's like-- You see it sometimes like the person who lays on the back like a dead fish because no longer they're trying to do the guard passing and so they're given just the crappiest feedback or no feedback at all. Just star fished out while their partner is doing toreando passes and stuff like that which isn't very good. We want to make sure that both people are engaged and trying to learn something at the same time. Then we like to have at least a minimum of five to 10 reps each that the students do before they switch. I think that's probably the biggest change. Not that it's like the monumental difference. I really dislike classes where people only do one move each or two moves each and then they switch turns. Like if you're doing a sweep where it's like you sweep me and then because I'm on my back I'll now sweep you back and let's just go back and forth like that. I think the brain needs to switch into like a learning mode as it's doing it. So for me, speaking from my own experience, sometimes the first or second rep of your set can just suck. Even if you're midway in the class it's just not technically the best that it could be. So by taking the time to do five reps before switching with your partner or upwards of 10 reps before switching just allows you to keep dialing in and more and more. It just becomes too disconnected, disjointed when you're just doing one rep or two reps and then handing it back to your partner and allowing them to do it. Certainly I can’t watch some people do it because it keeps the two people actively jumping in. But it doesn't take that long to just do five reps consistently or 10 reps consistently provided you're not talking the whole time. Like some people aren't the best when it comes to drilling but just dedicated five 10 reps bang them out. Can be slower, can be faster and then switch and that part is huge there. Then just same thing where it's drilling, we will drill one technique or two techniques for an entire class. If you came into my class and I'm going to be teaching you like the tripod sweep. I'm going to teach you the tripod sweep and you're going to spend probably about 20 minutes doing just that. Then we're going to clean up the actual technical stand up part of finishing the sweep once your partner has fallen to the ground. Then maybe a slight variation on that. But typically, it'll be just the tripod sweep and then more emphasis spent on also finishing the sweep coming up and possibly putting yourself into a great position to start passing immediately off of it. I don't like classes that also then show you 20 different techniques or some of that seminars who are notorious for where you go to a seminar and you just get bombarded with like 20 techniques within a three hour class and at the end of it it's like, "Holy crap, I have no idea what I'm supposed to take away from that anymore. I've forgotten everything." **Sonny:** For me definitely the best seminars I've been to are ones that just focus on just one move, one position and you just end up spending an hour or two just focusing on that and that's really noticeable now that I've done a fair few seminars over the years that the stuff I can remember is going to be from those seminars that are structured like that. The best that I can remember from seminars that just show a lot of different moves is just little dribs and drabs of stuff there. I agree with you on that one. It's been a good chat, Rory, and I just want to-- Finishing up just some advice you can give to people on-- If you were to go back and meet yourself when you first started training martial arts or training as a white belt, what would be a piece of advice that you could give yourself back then that you think would help you learn faster or just would be good advisor role? **Rory:** Oh, man that could be a whole bunch of different things. All the mistakes I've made in my life. Focusing on the parts that I think has been most important to me now. Especially even as a black belt but what's really helping and I had Rob there fortunately to guide me was what we've been talking about of making sure that we're practicing legit techniques that are proven. Try and stay away from chasing the YouTube rabbit hole, instructionals necessarily, or especially Instagram videos. Now, there are good channels like obviously if you want to check out Sonny's channel or my channel, there's going to be some good stuff there. Just at least be hesitant on where you're trying to get the information from because there's a lot of crap out there. Obviously, learning a conceptual approach will give you a framework for being able to have the ability to identify bullshit that's out there. Watch competition and see what these guys are doing at the highest levels. If you have some amazing moves that you've never seen at the highest level, the reality is it's that is probably crap what you're doing. It can be defeating because I find a lot of people get really attached to their techniques. Then they get offended when we tell them that those techniques aren't valid at the highest level. Like you were saying where it's like people-- You just have that technique that you're working on at the gym and you have success with it. Some people really grab onto that stuff and they become resistant to change. They're just techniques. They're just tools that we can use. Watch the stuff that's being used at the highest level and use that as the filtration of knowing what works. If it's going to work on and if Gordon Ryan submitted with something, then absolutely it's going to work on everybody underneath him including that drunk guy that you run into at the bar if you're able to make that work. Just make sure to try and not go down these rabbit holes of practicing all these wacky and crazy techniques. We have a filtration process in Jiu-Jitsu and it's quite easy to see what actually works out there. **Sonny:** That's beautiful. Beautiful advice that everyone can benefit from that. Even I know that I've spent time working on techniques that for sure the time's better spent in other areas. Maybe next time I can get you to come back on and we can discuss submissions 101 and the pentagram trick a little bit. **Rory:** Yes. I've got lots to say about submissions 101. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** During this whole COVID-19 thing, we certainly have the time to do another one of these or more. I think that'd be a funny discussion also to go over that. We'll save that for another day because I'm sure you've got a lot to say on that. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do it? Obviously your YouTube channel which I highly recommend everyone goes and checks out. I also know you've got a few instructionals on sale or just to buy if people are looking for those. **Rory:** Yes, my YouTube channel RVV BJJ is where I do most of my work that's got me I guess any little bit of notoriety around in the small part of the Jiu-Jitsu community. I work with my instructor [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki") on [bjjconcepts.net](http://bjjconcepts.net "http://bjjconcepts.net") in which he does amazing stuff that I've been talking about in a very well set up way with curriculums for you to be able to learn from. I have a guard retention formula with Stephan Kesting. I have some instructionals that I've been doing. About 14 or 15 instructionals at this point with Gold BJJ which is an excellent company. They have an online training academy. I also have to really recommend their products. They're some of my favourite products I've ever got to use for gears and backpacks and stuff like that. The best way to reach me just for messages is through Instagram or Facebook. Whether it's my personal Facebook accounts or my [RVV BJJ Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/rvvbjj "https://www.facebook.com/rvvbjj") account. Especially right now a lot of downtime, I'm always on there. If you guys have any questions about anything, I am happy to chat about really anything at this point. **Sonny:** Beautiful. Thanks, I'll put all the links to those in the show notes if people want to check them out. Thanks so much for your time Rory. Hopefully, we can do it again in the future. **Rory:** That sounds perfect, Sonny, let's do it again. ## Rory van Vliet Resources ### Links - [Rory Van Vliet Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/rvvbjj/?hl=en "Rory Van Vliet Instagram") - [Rory Van Vliet Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/rvvbjj "Rory Van Vliet Facebook") - [RVV BJJ YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/RVVBJJ "RVV BJJ YouTube") ![Rory van Vliet - BJJ Alignment Theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/rory_tsbb_promo2.jpg "rory_tsbb_promo2 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Adisa Banjoko On Blending Hip Hop, Chess, BJJ & The Hip Hop Chess Federation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/adisa-banjoko-blending-hip-hop-chess-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** June 29, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Adisa Banjoko - Hip Hop, Chess, BJJ & The Hip Hop Chess Federation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/adisa_banjoko-1024x576.jpg "Adisa Banjoko › Sonny Brown")I talk to Adisa Banjoko aka Adisa the Bishop. He is the creator of the Hip Hop Chess Federation, Author of a book titled Bobby, Bruce and the Bronx and host of the Podcast called The Bishop Chronicles. The Hip Hop Chess federation combines the arts of Hip Hop, Chess and [Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-drysdale-interview-bad-truth-bjj-history/ "Robert Drysdale on The Good, Bad & Beautiful Truth in the Origins of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu")and teaches positive life strategies to at-risk and incarcerated youth. We discuss how he formed the HHCF from an initial encounter in a juvenile detention facility where he found chess helpful to breakdown racial and social barriers, its development where traditionalists in each art were initially sceptical of the members of the other arts. We go over practical examples of how chess, jiu-jitsu and hip hop can be useful metaphors for dealing with life's struggles. Finally, how Adisa recently taught how to overcome creative blocks at a retreat with a Shaolin Monk hosted by the RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan at his house. ## Listen To Adisa Banjoko ## YouTube ## Key Topics ### Hip hop, chess and Jiu-Jitsu as teaching tools Adisa explains how the Hip Hop Chess Federation combines different disciplines to teach strategy, patience, creativity and decision-making. Each activity becomes another way to reach students who may not connect with a traditional classroom. ### Breaking down social barriers The conversation traces the project back to Adisa’s work with young people in detention, where chess created a shared activity that could cut across racial and social divisions and open the door to larger conversations. ### Strategy as a metaphor for life Chess positions, Jiu-Jitsu exchanges and hip hop creativity are used as practical metaphors for setbacks, planning and adapting under pressure. Adisa focuses on helping students recognise consequences and make better choices. ### Creativity, martial arts and overcoming blocks Adisa also discusses creativity, his work around RZA and the Wu-Tang Clan, and how martial arts principles can help people move through periods where they feel stuck. ## Key Takeaways - Different disciplines can teach the same deeper skills through different entry points. - Strategy becomes more useful when students can connect it to real decisions in their own lives. - Shared activities such as chess and martial arts can help break down social barriers. - Creativity and problem-solving improve when people learn to adapt rather than freeze under pressure. ## Resources - [Hip Hop Chess Federation on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/realhiphopchess/) - [Hip Hop Chess Federation writing on Medium](https://medium.com/@hiphopchess) - *Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx* by Adisa Banjoko - The Bishop Chronicles podcast ## Adisa Banjoko Podcast Transcript **Sonny:** Welcome to episode number 17 of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. A podcast where we discuss the training, teaching, health, and education of mixed martial arts to help you find the difference that makes the difference. I'm your host Sonny Brown and in this episode, I talk to Adisa Banjoko aka Adisa the Bishop. He is the creator of the Hip Hop Chess Federation, author of a book titled Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx, and the host of a podcast called The Bishop Chronicles. The Hip Hop Chess Federation combines the arts of hip hop, chess, and Brazilian [jiu-jitsu and teaches positive life strategies](https://www.sonnybrown.net/tum-voorn-bjj-inquiry-based-learning/) to at-risk and incarcerated youth. We discuss how he formed the Hip Hop Chess Federation after an initial encounter in a juvenile detention facility where he found chess helpful to break down racial and social barriers, its development where traditionalists in each art were initially skeptical of the members of the other arts and we go over practical examples of how chess, jujutsu, and hip hop can be useful metaphors for dealing with life struggles. Finally, how Adisa recently taught how to overcome creative blocks at a retreat with a Shaolin monk hosted by the RZA of the Wu-Tang clan at his house. Now, let's got to the podcast. Adisa, great to have you here mate. How are you today? How's things? **Adisa:** I'm really good. You know what I'm saying? Thank you for having me on the show. You're really awesome. I love your videos and I can't even believe I'm on the show. That's totally true. I'm a little extra star-struck because I was listening to one of your podcasts earlier. I was literally eating lunch listening to it, and I'm still juiced from it. It's weird. I'm having a star-struck moment. I'm just telling you. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] The feeling is mutual mate because I've been a fan of your work for a long time. I can't remember exactly when I first picked up a book-- **Adisa:** It was two years ago or something. It seemed right. Maybe less. I don't know. **Sonny:** It seems a while but I can't even remember exactly how I found out about your stuff. It was through good fortune, let's just say. **Adisa:** \[laughs\] **Sonny:** That I found out about you and your organization and have been fascinated with it ever since. I like reading about it. I like reading about what you're doing. Basically, what you do is you run the Hip Hop Chess Federation which combines the elements of hip hop, chess, martial arts, particularly Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and you use that as a vehicle to teach, say, positive life strategies- **Adisa:** Totally. **Sonny:** -to kids, troubled youth, at-risk youth-- **Adisa:** Especially troubled youth, yes. Especially troubled youth. It's for everybody. You know what I mean? Yes, Hip Hop Chess Federation was founded in 2006 but it had been something on my mind for at least 10 years, maybe 15 years before that. It's little scattered fragments of wisdom are floating through your brain like, "Oh, that makes sense with that. That makes sense with that." I think that was because I am a guy who didn't graduate high school. I got a GED because I was really an alcoholic, a binge drinker. I didn't graduate. I didn't have any direction, let me be honest. Even if I'm honest about how I got into drinking was because I just didn't have any direction. I dedicated myself to hip hop at a very young age and I was a journalist but I was also an artist. What happens is I started noticing when I was young that there were a lot of rappers that were mentioning chess and I love chess. I'm not a grandmaster. You've never seen me win any tournaments but I love the game. The thing that I always picked up from it was life decisions when I was either playing or when I was watching other people play. I could pull life things from other people's games and that's what my gift was like. You know what I'm saying? I'd be like, "Oh, in life ... ." It would just stick with me. Long story short, I made a library of lyrics in my head that dealt with chess and it would be like from Public Enemy or it would be from EPMD. Obviously this is before Wu-Tang, but then Wu-Tang Clan comes out and they perfect that whole idea. The deal was that GZA from Wu-Tang and I, we met before Wu-Tang Clan. Me and GZA were cool before Wu-Tang Clan existed when he was a solo artist on a record label called Cold Chillin'. He's hell of funny. We were always in tune. Basically, one day when I had put out some books on hip hop called Lyrical Swords Volume 1 and Volume 2, I was invited to be a guest speaker in a juvenile hall. It was career day. It was like, "We're going to have this guy talk about journalism and ... ." When I went in there, the kids was like, "Have you ever met Snoop?" "Well, I've talked to him on the phone for an interview but--" "Do you know Eminem?" "Yes." "Do you know--" No one cared about what the hell I did at all. I was bombing. Quite frankly, I'm a good public speaker. I kill mics when I give lectures. I was completely humiliated just bombing in front of all these kids. That particular weekend I had bought a chessboard for my son who was four at the time. He's 21 now. He just graduated. Congratulations son, I love you. I had this board and pieces and I was like, "Dude, you are bombing. You better figure out something." I was only 10 minutes in and I was dying. I was like, "Teach them chess. You couldn't waste an hour teaching chess." I was like, "Quick show of hands. Who knows chess in here?" 85% of the room raised their hand. I couldn't believe it. I was like, "Okay, that's no good." They had just ruined my plan because I was going to teach chess and now they all know it. Then I was like, "All right. All right. Who in here is really good though? Who thinks they are the best? Who can play in here?" A bunch of hands went down. Only a few went up and I was like, "We're going to have a tournament. We're going to have a tournament and everybody who wins I'll give one of my books to. That's what we'll do." Circle up. Two kids are playing. They are both black and there's this one kid, white kid in the hall. He's sitting in a circle. This dude's getting ready to move one of his pieces and he's like, "Don't move that piece." He turns to him and he's like, "Shut up white boy. Ain't nobody asked you about no damn chess." He moves the piece, loses his queen. Everybody was like, "Oh, you lost your queen." Now, the white kid's getting all this respect. It's like, "We've got to pay attention to the white kid because he actually knows better." Then later, this kid play. He's literally 300 pounds and I said, "Who's the best?" He said," I'm the best." You know how juvie is man. Kids are really mean. This kid was like, "This ain't no sandwich-eating contest fat boy. You can't win." Then he was like, "Haha." They are laughing at him. I'm trying to guard my laugh. I'm like, "Leave him be. Leave him be. He can play bro." He wins the tournament, the overweight kid. When I'm leaving I'm like, "Wait a minute. First of all, how do all these kids know chess but they make horrible life decisions and they are in here for robbery, murder, stealing cars? But they play a game that teaches how to think better?" Then I was like, "You just saw racial divide melt when the white kid said, "Don't move your queen." Made the mistake, whatever." His pecking order went up and then the overweight kid who everybody was laughing at in the beginning ends up winning the tournament and his pecking order went up. I was like, "What if--" I'm literally leaving. I have all my stuff. I was like, "This was great . Cool." I'm leaving. I remember where I was in the juvenile hall in the stairwell when it hit me because I'm like, "What if there was a way that you could teach kids about chess but make it cool?" In that very instant every rap lyric I remembered about chess, literally just rain. Came down on my head. It was like, "Wu-Tang, Public Enemy ." I was standing there at the top of the stairs and I was like, "Hip hop chess. Hip hop chess." That was the beginning of it. You know what I mean? A year or so later, I ran into RZA through Sway and Tech from the Wake Up Show. They hooked me up with RZA and then me and RZA became really cool really quick. I met him when he was giving a talk at a place called The Commonwealth Club here in the Bay area. I went in with my ex-wife. \[chuckles\] We went in there and there was nobody in this room. It was just me, him, and her. It was just hell of quiet. You're sitting hell of awkward. \[laughs\] I went to the event and he was not giving interviews, but my friend told me. He was like, "Go there and see if you can get in, but he's not supposed to be giving interviews." All these press people had come and the lady was like, "RZA is not giving interviews so everybody shut up and get out of here." I took my book and I signed it. Then I said, "Hey, do me a favor." She's like, "What?" I said, "Give this book to RZA, tell him I'm a friend of so and so and tell him I'd like to talk with him." She was like, "Okay but I don't know why ." She goes back and she comes back. She's like, "RZA will see you now." I was like, "Woohoo." All the press be like, "What the--" I was like, "Later boys." **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Adisa:** I walk in. I sit in the back and it's just some vegetables, some fruit, some water, and tea, and him. There's no one else in the room. He's like, "Peace." I'm like, "Hey, what's up, man?" Friend so and so. He's kicking with Jay Z back in the day and he's like, "All right, cool." Then he looks at me. We're just looking at each other. It's hell of quiet and he goes, "You know who Tamo is?" I was like, "Who?" He was like, "Tamo." I was like, "No, I don't know who you're talking about." He was like-- He had this really disappointed face and he was like, "He's the guy that invented kung fu, man. Da, da, da, da." Because he was like, "I thought you knew about martial arts kind of a thing." I was like, "You know what? You're right. You're talking about Bodhidharma, and I always use that name instead of Tamo but I know." Then, as soon as he realized that, we just boom. We click, and we've been cool ever since. I bumped into Josh Waitzkin. I was trying to interview Josh Waitzkin for my second book, but he never responded to anything. Then he responded. He was dropping The Art of Learning. He was like, "I got this new book. It's called The Art of Learning. Can I send you an early copy? It's not even ready yet." I was like, "Yes." I was like, "I saw you did Tai chi and stuff, but do you know about jujutsu?" He's like, "Yes, I do know jujutsu, and I train jujutsu." I was like, "What? **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] **Adisa:** You know what I’m saying?" It was just crazy. That was 2007. We did our first event in 2006. We did a quiet event with me, RZA, Josh Waitzkin, and DJ Cuba, and a few other people at the Omega Boys Club. Then after that, we did our big event and it just kept going from there, man. It's crazy. **Sonny:** Wow, that is a fascinating way that that's all come together. I got to say. **Adisa:** \[laughs\] I know. **Sonny:** Especially for Josh Waitzkin getting involve. He's someone in my other podcasts. He's come up a fair bit and that book has come up a fair bit. It seems it was really just-- I guess, you were putting yourself out there in that initial talk, and through a bit of fear and failure and improvisation. The creativity struck and it became clear that this is a great way to help people and break down racial tensions. **Adisa:** Just help people discover themselves. After I did that, people were like, "Yo," because when we did our second event, we were in The New York Times twice that year. We were in Good Morning America. The news was bonkers. I came across a grandmaster. We were talking on the phone, and he was like, "Yes, man, I've been hearing a lot of stuff about your org. I keep hearing a lot of hype." He kept using the word hype a lot. I could tell that, "Come on, man. I'm not a grandmaster. I'm not-- You know what I'm saying?" I think that certain people in the traditional chess world felt a little threatened, and they still do. You know what I mean? Because they're like, "Oh, this fucking hip hop guy." You know what I mean? "Get out of here." You know what I'm saying? The truth is, a lot of the dudes in hip hop are beasts on this board. I'm not a beast. I'm all right, but RZA will drag you. My boy Rugged Monk, drag. Amir Suleyman, drag. GZA, drag. Kadir Latif. DJ Cuba on the clock, drag. I know it felt a little offensive because it was-- If the traditional chess community is considered nerds. It's like the cool kids just came over, pushed them off the "Look, look out the way. We're going to play chess now." They're like, "We've been doing this. You don't get to walk in and be cool. We've been here." There was a little-- I told that Grandmaster at the time I said, "Hey, listen, man. My job is to point people towards you. I don't think that I'm you. Just like I know you don't think that you're me even if you like hip hop. My job is to point people towards the game and towards the people who make it great, and you're one of the people that make a great. That's all you need to understand." I think over time, while I was able to talk to him, I think there were other people in the chess community that didn't understand that and didn't know that. You know what I'm saying? Jennifer Shahade who is a great ally and friend. Josh introduced me to her. She's always been really-- she wrote a book called Chess Bitch, and she wrote a really good book called Play Like a Girl! It's really dope. It's a history book of women in chess, but it also shows you moves that they specialized in so you can learn to actually think like them. It's really dope. That is one of the best chess books on the earth for me because you learn about the history of chess, and the women who were dynamic in chess, and you get to understand their tactical specialties. It's just a great book. You know what I'm saying? Over time, we got a lot of hype, but with that hype, and with that momentum came what? Comes responsibility. Then it's like, "Okay, so what if Jay Z knows how to play chess? What if Public Enemy or RZA-- What is that going to do?" That's when I had to go inside myself and say, "Okay, what am I asking the game to do for these young people?" That's when I started really doing the research that made the book, Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx happen. It has worksheets in the back helping people think about short-term goal planning, long-term goal planning, risk assessment. You know what I'm saying. Sacrifice. You know what I'm saying? You'll do all of that in one five-minute match of jujutsu. \[laughs\] You know what I'm saying? These things are very integrative. I put the book together. It took some time to do it. In between that time, I was lucky enough to get invited through Jennifer Shahade to curate an exhibit on hip hop and chess at the World Chess Hall of Fame. My exhibit, the first day brought more people to the World Chess Hall of Fame than any other exhibit before it, except for Bobby Fischer. Unbelievable. You know what I mean? RZA came out and there were lines around the block to get into the World Chess Hall of Fame. In St. Louis, people were like, "I have never waited in line to get inside World Chess Hall of Fame." \[laughs\] **Sonny:** Sure. I can understand. **Adisa:** "This has never happened, and I'm outside." You know what I'm saying? It was just a packed crazy, beautiful event. I remember Bobby Fischer's exhibit was upstairs. It's a four or five-story building. There's people, there's music, the place is rocking. It's me, RZA, all these people. It's hell of sick. I go upstairs to Bobby Fisher's exhibit, and it's just beautiful. There was no one there because everybody-- You know what I mean? I was upstairs and I was like, "I cannot believe I'm at the World Chess Hall of Fame. RZA is below me talking and there's a film." There was a film for it, all this other stuff, and it was very humbling. I was just grateful. You know what I mean? I was just grateful. We've been able to reach a lot of people, do a lot of stuff in juvies. Now, I'm here talking to you bro. I'm blown away. **Sonny:** My honor, mate. My honor. Trust me \[chuckles\] . That book, I recommend everyone goes out and get a copy because I think it's fantastic. Especially, maybe we'll go through some of those stuff in the worksheets as well. I'm interested in discussing about that pushback you got when you initially started to enter into the chess world. Seems you're taking those three traditional arts of chess, hip hop, martial arts, which stand on their own. I'm sure, there is those crossovers where people of course will do multiple things, but you're then taking the three separate arts, repackaging them maybe, and presenting them as a cohesive whole. **Adisa:** Yes, that is it. **Sonny:** I can see how you are going to get a bit of pushback from the age traditionalist in those groups. How do you think that they can all work together cohesively into one unit? **Adisa:** That's a really good question. It is a question that I asked myself in the beginning because I was trying to figure it out. What I mean by that is, I knew how it was helping me. I understood how hip hop, chess, and martial arts especially jujutsu was helping me, but I didn't really know what that would necessarily mean for someone else, especially someone that doesn't do jujutsu or has no aspiration to do martial arts. Couple of things. How did my brain even work like this? Because it's funny. I was recently talking with someone and they asked me-- They said-- Because they were from the hip hop community. Hip hop originality is everything. Originality is everything in hip hop, at least from my generation. I'm old school. You know what I'm saying? You needed to rap different, you needed to look different, you needed to have beats that were different. You stood out. He was like, "Were you trying to come up with some bonkers idea? What really was it?" You know what it was, man. When I was young, I was really small. I told you I was a binge drinker. You know what I'm saying? I had to sober up on my own because I didn't even know AA existed. You know what I'm saying? Once I realized that I had a problem and I was like, "You got to figure it out." I figured it out and I've been sober since I was 17 and I'm 50. You know what I'm saying? That's a long ass time ago. My [point is I remember when I was training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) with Ralph. I started at Ralph Gracie Mountainview. You know what I'm saying? I trained at Heroes Martial Arts who was one of Ralph's top dudes but me, Gamby, BJ, Dave Camarillo. You know what I'm saying? We were all there at the same time. You know what I mean? I was just getting my ass kicked. They were champions. I was just getting my ass kicked. I was just a body getting dragged but in-between-- **Sonny:** No shame in that. Those are some big guys \[laughs\] . **Adisa:** In-between bandaging my arm and getting ice for my eye, I remember one day I was like, "Yo, Ralph. How do you do this move?" I don't really remember what the move was. I think it was an armbar from the mount. That you go here, here, here, here, and then boom, you take the arm and I was like, "Oh, that's like chess," in my own brain. I'm trying to know how to remember the move. You see what I'm saying? My brain starts using chess visuals to remember how things were. If he goes, "If you go here and the guy goes here, that's like a chess puzzle." I move, they go here and then you bink , and then checkmate, hurray. I was like, "Okay." That's how my brain was first integrating jujutsu and chess. When I started, people weren't really digging it. Hip hop people liked it already because of Wu-Tang, but I came into this understanding before Wu-Tang. As someone who was a fan of Bruce Lee and the Chinese martial arts explosion with all those films. I was in the same vibe essentially as RZA and those guys. We just didn't know each other. You know what I'm saying? The other part of it was coming into Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I remember I interviewed Helio Gracie in 1998 and I interviewed Hoise and we were at the Torrance Academy and I was hanging out with Rorian and-- \[laughs\] I remember being like, "This is bonkers." I was a white belt. I had been training with Ralph for probably about three months I think when it started. I remember going back home from LA and I was like, "The problem with Brazilian jiu-jitsu is that there isn't a philosophy in it. It is a fantastic fighting style but it is not a martial art." I was like, "Okay, what do you fill this void with of no philosophy?" My head was like, "You can create bulls and lions but you won't necessarily create martial artists." I still feel like that's largely happened with what became MMA. Not jujutsu but MMA. I read The Book of Five Rings, I read The Art of Peace. I read all these different Darwinist. I'm a nerd so I'm diving into Darwinism. I'm diving into Confucianism. I'm a Muslim but I read everything. I'm reading the Bible. I'm reading the Torah, and I'm like, "Dude, there's no philosophy for jujutsu." You know what I mean? Then I stopped training with Ralph for a while and I was training with Charles, his brother. Then I stayed for a while. I left Ralph's because I was taking my kids to one of my parents' house after work and it was this whole thing, and then I started training with Charles because Ralph Gracie SF had started but it was too far in. I needed a middle joint. I started training with Charles. One day at Charles' is this dude, he kept getting injured. He was a savage but he kept getting injured. He kept coming in. He tried to come in-- He was a purple belt. I was blue at the time. I was sitting next to Oliver and Charles was sitting next to Oliver. It was like Oliver was sitting between me and Charles and the guy comes in and Charles is like, "Don't train. You shouldn't be here," and he's like, "No, because da da da da." Those days Ralph had a shirt that said-- I still have it. It says, "It's better to die than not to train." That was on the back of his shirt. You know what I mean? People would go in with busted arms. You know what I mean? This guy is trying to come in and Charles is like, "Get out, get out." Finally, the guy leaves. He was trying to debate with Charles like, "Please let me train. Please let m train, " and Charles was like, "No." The guy starts to go downstairs. This is old-school Charles Gracie in Daly City which doesn't exist anymore. Shout out to Oliver. You know what I'm saying? Shout out to Christiano. You know what I'm saying? Hymes. Anyway, Charles looks at Oliver because Oliver is like, "How come you won't let him train? I thought you were supposed to train no matter what vibe." Charles looks at him really casually and he goes, "Too much water it kills the plant." I was like, "Overtraining." You know what I'm saying? You can overwater the plant. I never forgot. I went home and I wrote it down. I wrote it down and then I had this idea to make a list of quotes that I thought were motivational for jujutsu even if it didn't have to do with jujutsu. It would be a Charles Gracie quote. Something I remember from Ralph or something, then some Confusion quote, then something out the bible, and at the end of the year, I made a bunch of copies of it and I gave it to everybody I was close to in the school. In fact Oliver, he still has it. I called it The Writing of the Sages and it was just everybody's quotes. He was like, "Dude, I still have that bro." He was like, "I still read that. That shit is dope." I became this quote dude. I realized at that point though that jujutsu had a philosophy, but it was not codified. It came from the training. It wasn't bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. It was like you have to discover it and want to discover it. As I went forward, I started gathering all these things and I realized that what I was trying to do was help make it so that people could have some type of guide inside the [sport and inside the art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/) to improve themselves. As I started pushing these ideas, people in hip hop thought it was cool but they could only think of the Wu. They didn't think deeper than Wu-Tang. They didn't look into where Wu-Tang was getting their philosophies from. You see what I'm saying? They weren't looking at Buddhism for real, they were just looking at Shaw Brothers Martial Arts. You know what I'm saying? The chess people thought that hip hop was cool, that they might like Public Enemy but they couldn't look into the lyrics and see the value of what these lyrics were doing to motivate young people to play chess because they were much focussed on chess, they couldn't see hip hop as a viable tool. You see what I'm saying? The biggest place where I got the support was in the martial arts community because these are guys that are listening to music to stay motivated and they might be playing chess to elevate their brain. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. The martial arts community actually had the most love for me, whether it was jujutsu people, kungfu people, karate people, judo, wrestling, whatever. Initially, I think everybody they were like, "Cool idea bro," but they didn't know what to do with it and I totally understood that. I didn't take it personally because I myself didn't have these answers but I was determined to find them. The first real breakthrough came when I realized that hip hop by all traditional East Coast perspectives says that hip hop started in August of '73. Right before that, Bobby Fischer beat Boris Spassky for the world championship title and people forget that chess was not this sidebar thing in America the way it is right now. When Bobby Fischer played Boris Spassky, PBS had it's highest ratings ever. Ever. It was not a sidebar thing, everybody was playing. Around the same time, Bruce Lee dropped Enter the Dragon. These things happened on top of each other bro. Bobby Fischer from Brooklyn and Cool Hat, the guy that really started making hip hop happen, he was in the West Bronx and then you got Washington Square Park where people are doing Tai chi and playing chess. You know what I'm saying? The chess hustlers are trying to get their money and that's the same parks where people are trying to battle each other whether it's in dance or in rapping. I could see the convergence but at that time, each segment was siloed, they didn't realize what was happening at the same time because the chess people were like \*\*\*\* , and the martial arts people were like \*\*\*\* , and the hip hop people were like, "I'm doing something new. I don't know what's going on." Everybody was different. Everybody was in their silos but they were influencing each other in some subtle ways. Once I figured that out, that was enough and I was able to build on that. I was really able to build on that. That's how I ended up making my book. I was interviewing everybody. I didn't care. I was talking to grandmasters like Maurice Ashley. I was talking to RZA and GZA. I was talking to anybody. That's when I put-- Before that book, I did a book called Lyrical Swords Volume II: Westside Rebellion. It's not in print anymore. I don't even know if it's available anywhere. I don't know. That's the first book where I really-- I even interviewed Denny Prokopos for that book when he was a kid. He wasn't even-- You know what I mean? I knew Denny was going to be bonkers. I knew he was going to kill the game with jujutsu, I knew it. I interviewed him. Do you know what I mean? It's just crazy, man. It's just crazy. I think I interviewed Rakaa from Dilated. You know what I'm saying? I interviewed RZA and GZA for that book. That became the seeds that became Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx down the line. You know what I mean? It was just crazy, man. It was crazy and then everybody started seeing the connections now and it's funny because I was at a tech event and I ran into this guy from Google and he didn't really know who I was, which made sense and then I mentioned something about chess and jujutsu and hip hop and he goes, "People say there's a lot of connections between that. I've been seeing a lot more about it." I was like, "That's me." \[laughs\] You know what I'm saying? I don't care now that nobody knows that it was me dragging all this stuff together to help make it happen to see the connections. It wasn't an easy thing to achieve in the beginning, but once people started seeing it, it started taking its own life and that's why I don't really care how much credit I get for it or not, I don't care. There are other organizations that go, "We do hip hop and chess." And stuff like that. It used to piss me off because I was like, "That's all my stuff bro." Then I was like, "You know what? It doesn't matter. What matters is that they're able to reach kids that I don't have access to." I don't care. You know what I'm saying? Whatever bro. Everybody's got to get the wisdom how they get it. That's all I care about. **Sonny:** I think everyone should know about what you're doing. That's for sure mate. That's for sure. **Adisa:** Thank you. **Sonny:** I'm looking at it like you've got those three different arts blending together to create something a bit unique as coming from a martial arts perspective, could consider it like the arts of striking takedowns and submissions combining together to create MMA and to create something new on its own. I guess the thing with that example is that all three of those arts are useful in a combat setting. Would it be that these three separate arts, the thing that they share in common is how they can be used outside of their realm? They're all enjoyable activities, but the common link is looking at it as a way to deal with other issues or other problems in life. **Adisa:** Yes, that's exactly it. The idea is that you're dealing with a fusion of logic and art. You're dealing with things that are all still sports, but what you're really finding is that, at the highest level, how do you know who's the best rapper? How do you know who's the best in jujutsu? How do you know who is the best at Chess? They've got to battle. There's something about doing it that has its own beauty, but battle is where you find the highest essence of that thing, whether it's Eminem. If you look at Eminem battling people at Scribble Jam in YouTube. Go and look-- He is marking people spontaneously. It's not just that this guy can write songs. I realized early this Eminem kid is going to be a problem for the earth because I was watching him demolish people. You know what I'm saying? Before YouTube on Scribble Jam via chesses, but what I'm saying is, how do who's the best in jujutsu? Because you've got to watch Abu Dhabi. You got to watch EBI. You got to watch-- Because that battle it brings out the best in people. I realized that if they could use each thing to bring out the highest element of their artistic, logical self, they would always be really prepared to deal with anything that happens to them. Then I was working with a teacher at a school in San Jose where I first put my program together. When I put all the worksheets together, I was working at a high school in San Jose in a tough area and I was teaching-- They were the first "Guinea pigs" of this whole concept once I put it together. One of the teachers there, he said, "Hey, man," he's like, "do you know about executive function?" I was like, "No." He started talking to me about executive function of the human brain and how it is the air traffic control center of your brain that helps you multitask and all this other stuff. That's when I really realized all three of these arts tap into executive function. They help exercise and strengthen executive function and he was like, "Dude, if you're building executive function in young minds, they're going to win regardless." You know what I mean? Because that your brain will always be adaptable, always have a sense of fluidity, always have a heightened sense of how to problem-solve and once-- His name was Dan Gilday. What up, Dan? He really changed my whole understanding of what this fusion could do for young people once I learned about the role of cognitive function. That's really why people could talk about STEM education. This is STEAM, adding the art component. If you look at every culture in the world in its ancient setting, STEAM was always a part of it. It was only in-- I would say, after the medieval periods where mathematics, religion, music, art all get separated. If you look at a pyramid, you're looking at STEAM, that's mathematics and art. That's science aligning with the stars. There's whatever stars up above. You look at the Kaaba in Mecca. It's aligned with-- I'm blanking on the star right now, I feel bad. If you look at a lot of the ancient Mayan and Inca structures, that's all STEAM. Stonehenge, all this stuff. It's a natural thing in us to fuse our science and fuse our art. It's actually unnatural to separate it. When I do music, chess, and martial arts to promote unity, strategy and non-violence, that's actually tapping into our natural, traditional self before all of these modern structures separated them. **Sonny:** That's actually one of the best cases of advocating, adding the art back into STEM that I've actually heard. It really makes it clear. **Adisa:** I wrote an article about it, I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you. **Sonny:** Because I know that when that was happening, not everyone was on board with changing the word and everything like that. **Adisa:** No, no, truly. Truly. **Sonny:** It's a really good way of looking at it. I also like too that it doesn't-- I guess it can be advocated for without the need to just be purely a philosophical side of things but that cognitive function and executive function gives us something too that's a basis in science that it can grab onto. I really like the way that's all flows together in a nice mix. **Adisa:** No, it does. It's authentic and I know that it looks bizarre to a lot of people. I know, especially in terms of hip hop. People will be like, "Yo, man, I like the idea of chess and I like jujutsu, man, but hip hop's crazy bro. I'm not really to--" I understand that on the surface because if all I thought-- If all I knew hip hop was what I heard on the radio, I would believe it too. I would. I would totally believe it, but like any other given thing, if you tell people you do jujutsu, people initially assume, "Oh, Sonny must like to fight all the time. Maybe he's got anger issues or whatever," but they don't understand that jujutsu is what makes Sonny peaceful. It's what makes you relax. It's what gives you your patience. They don't understand that inner thing. Hip hop is the same way, man. There's a lot of beautiful philosophical hip hop out there that has been there. Some of it's really popular, some of it's not, but it's always been a part of the art of hip hop, but if you're only focused on the music that celebrates the naked chicks and the drugs and everything else, I understand it. That too is a problem. That's a societal issue. You know what I'm saying? Where people are just explaining what's around them and sometimes they do celebrate it in unhealthy ways. What young people ever saw life correctly. They didn't. \[chuckles\] These are kids. A lot of them don't really know or young adults who haven't really figured it out yet. I'm not advocating for all hip hop. I'm not advocating for every rap song and every rapper. I'm advocating for the ones that do show cultural, academic and moral wisdom in their art. I'm not an advocate for all hip hop. I am an advocate for the hip hop that champions unity, that champions non-violence, that champions the acknowledgment of other's humanity. Because when you play a chess game with someone, no matter whether you win or you lose, you honor them as a person. . You know what I'm saying? That person could be a rabbi, or they could be a gangster. You're going to honor that person. The next time you see another gangster, you'd be like, "Hey, you know what, I played a gangster and he smashed me on the boards." That was crazy. You know what I'm saying? When you do jujutsu, there could be another race, another religion. They could have no religion. They could be a philosopher. They could be a carpenter. They could be a scholar on a college campus, and you have another level of respect for them. If you compete with someone artistically, whether it's graffiti, or rap, or on turntables, or dance, you have a higher level of respect. What I'm hoping to do is to inspire people to first find their own sense of humanity through whichever one they choose. We don't try to make people be hip hop artists, or MMA fighters, or chess masters. We want them to use these three things, and quiz them about what they want to do with their life and who they want to be so that we can help them be that. Some of the kids that I mentor they just-- One of my friends, he's a friend now. When he was a teenager, he was a little gangster dude who just really wanted to put up drywall. He's like, "I don't want to go to college. I want to go to drywall. I just want to do drywall." I was like, "Cool." He's living a great life, not on the street Harlem business. Somebody else, he wants to go to college. "Okay, well, let's hope you get some stuff." He goes to college and does his thing. You know I'm saying? It's not about anything other than using these things to find out who you are, acknowledge the humanity in others, and go be great. That's it. **Sonny:** Yes. I love that. Just using these vehicles, well-developed established cultures, and taking their teachings as tools to help you progress, and especially focusing on helping young people being able to tackle life's challenges with it. That's just awesome. I think too with taking the three parts. Each one has their own negative stereotypes that needs to be broken down. That each one looking at the other one probably thinks is the case. MMA or martial arts is thugs like you said- **Adisa:** Barbaric. **Sonny:** -barbaric thugs. **Adisa:** Human chickens fighting, whatever. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** Yes. Human cockfighting. It's stupid as well. Ever they were dumb and then people looking at chess as just nerds who lack-- **Adisa:** Pure nerds who have no social engagement. You know what I'm saying? **Sonny:** Hip hop would just be a glorification of drugs and violence. **Adisa:** Yes, exactly, and sex and stuff. It's like, "Why would I want that in my life?" **Sonny:** Yes. Exactly. From the outside looking in people probably are going like, "I don't want any of that. I want to-- Whatever, different war." \[laughter\] **Adisa:** Exactly. **Sonny:** Probably people listening to me probably already have a good understanding of how that's not the case in the martial arts side of things, I'd imagine. The chess I think we'll probably get into with some of the chess strategies as well. What about specifically with hip hop? You mentioned when it's broken down into the four elements of hip hop, and how that is more fully developed than just that negative stereotype. Could you let people know about that now? **Adisa:** Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. The main thing is this. One time when I first got invited to the World Chess Hall of Fame, I was speaking to Susan Barrett who was a director at the time, and Jennifer Shahade, and some other people. She was like, "Okay, I don't know about hip hop. What is it like? I believe that you're onto something awesome, but what is it?" What happened is, I had been on the cover of Chess Life in 2012, and then that's what got me the invite to go to St. Louis and talk with the World Chess Hall of Fame. I said, "Okay." I said, "Look at your hand." I was like, "You have rap music, you have hip hop dance like b-boying stuff like that. You have graffiti, and you have deejaying. You have those four elements." Then, I said, "The fifth element is knowledge. That knowledge is supposed to be the knowledge of yourself." The idea isn't that you come into hip hop pretending to be black, pretending to be a tough guy, pretending to be a gangster. You bring your knowledge, your wisdom, your culture, and you feed it into these other four things. That is the hand of hip hop. That is the hand of hip hop. I said, "Rap music is one aspect. If we just focus on rap, and we just talk about what rappers say and do and whatever, we'll get lost in that all day, but hip hop is a beautiful art form where you're painting, where you are dancing, where you are spontaneously thinking and doing poetry." I said, "That's really what we need to cultivate." When people only mistake rap for all of what is hip hop, it creates-- You what I mean? It creates some confusion. That's fine. I understand why people don't get that part, but that's not what it is. Everybody has different modalities of learning. Some people are naturally more artistic. Some people are more vocal verbal. Some people-- You know what I mean? Are more cerebral. All of these aspects of what constitutes hip hop helps you improve who you are. If you have knowledge of self. Again, meaning don't pretend to be black. If you're Native American, bring that. If you're Japanese, bring that. If you're Canadian, bring that. That makes hip hop better. It doesn't help hip hop if you come in mocking someone else. As a martial artist, a lot of how you play your game is based on your body type. You can try to do a game like someone who's short and stocky, but I'm 6'3". I can't do a short and stocky game, and vice versa. There will be aspects of the short and stocky game I can use, but there's a limit to that, and then I got to start playing more like Heron. Then I got to start playing more like Nogueira, then I got to look at what is Keenan doing because he's got a body type more like mine. Even whatever Keenan is doing, all that ain't going to work for me. I still got to do my game. What I tell my students I said, "I'm going to give you jujutsu, and then you're going to make it your own. Your goal isn't to be like me. Your goal is to be you, and you may have different instincts intuitions, whatever, and I want you to do that. I'm giving you your baseline so that you can discover the jujutsu player that you are. Not to be a replica of me." **Sonny:** That's beautiful. All those elements of hip hop too involve the nature of battle. There are breakdancing battles,- **Adisa:** Yes, man. **Sonny:** -graffiti's people. **Adisa:** Yes, they have graffiti battles all the time. You know what I'm saying? Graffiti battles are beautiful. One of the things I learned when I was going to St. Louis, I guess the biggest graffiti wall in the world I think is in St. Louis. It's called Paint Louis. What they do is they have all these graffiti writers from-- I think they're all American, but they may be from overseas as well. They paint this mile and a half long wall. That's huge bro. Beautiful work. You know what I mean? It's competition, but the nature of that competition is what brings the best out of you. You know what I'm saying? I have this topic that I talk about in the book called How Your Enemies Improve You. How your enemies improve you and what is that about? That is someone who's doing jujutsu with you. It's his job to undermine all of your weaknesses. After the thing, you might be a good guard player, but you don't know how to recover side control. The person that tells you that, and you might be like, "Damn these fools that I couldn't recover side control." Then, you think about it and you be like, "Damn, he's right though. I really couldn't recover my guard. I couldn't really recover my guard." That person has just improved you. Your homie you might know the same thing when he rolls with you, but he's going to say. He's not going to tell you. He's like, "Man, I have fun. Sonny, this was great man. Let's go get some Acai ." **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Adisa:** It's because he's your homie because you all at homies and you like, e ating Acai, . "What a great day." He's like, "Yes." He may not even be doing it deliberately, but your enemy will tell you, "You can't recover. If I pass your guard, you can't get it back." That is your enemy improving you, and that is his job. When you and your friend plays chess with you, and he mops you with his knights, that's his job and it's your job to be, "Okay, how do I neutralize the advancements of the knights or at least force him to lose one of them so that I can survive long enough to castle and get my game going because he's killing me with these knights." That's how your enemies improve you. You deal with these kids who can't deal with simple social pressures, simple issues, whether it is with their homework or this or that, and it's like, "Man, you've got to be tough. You've got to weather the storm, find your moment, step into it." That's how your enemies improve you. **Sonny:** Now, I really like that because especially it seems it makes sense then. You've got the enemies in life who can improve you, and we're taking all those-- The battle of chess, martial arts, and that battling side in hip hop, and we're learning about ourselves and the outside world in those battles, and then we can take that and transfer it onto the battle of life, shall we say. The battle of everyday living. \[crosstalk\] **Adisa:** You know what I mean? Of school. You know what I mean? You don't take the pressure personally. That's the idea that you don't take the pressure that they put on you personally. That pressure that they put on you is what makes you better, is what improves you, is what helps you rise to the occasion because whatever you saw Muhammad Ali do, whatever you saw Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant and any of these guys do, they could only do it to the degree that their opponent put pressure on them so they could "Oh, I got to go like that. Boom, he makes the shot." That's, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Adisa:** If your opponent's like, "Go ahead and make the shot." You're not going to get good. He's got to make you feel you have to do everything in your heart to make it happen. That's how those moments happen whether it's-- Was it Braulio Estima when he triangle choked the dude from Atos, remember? When he had that crazy-- **Sonny:** I'm not sure. **Adisa:** I just, there's a match that I'm thinking of. I think it was Braulio Estima and he triangle choked the brother from Atos. I'm blanking right now because my main... scattered. I know that that triangle choke didn't come easy is my point. You know what I'm saying? He just didn't give it to him. He had to figure it out. You know what I mean? He had to explode, he had to believe, he had to own that moment. You know what I mean? **Sonny:** I get you. If every match is an easy match, then you're never going to be great, right? **Adisa:** Yes. **Sonny:** You're never going to reach that. Be forced out of your comfort zone where you'd pull off something once in a lifetime incredible if you're just cruising all the time, right? **Adisa:** \[chuckles\] Exactly. **Sonny:** I get it. It's a good point. I love that idea of the opponents because it's something I've always thought about or I think I've read in a book by Kyle King. It's the idea that you're going around life and you've got a sign on your forehead or on your back or something that says something about you and no one is ever going to tell you what that is except your enemy. They're going to tell you but no one-- You got to say something but no one is going man. No one is going to say what it is. You're just going to be left to stumble around but that in a battle, they're going to let you know, right? \[laughs\] **Adisa:** Yes, every time. **Sonny:** You got to be grateful for that because "Oh thanks. Now I'm a little bit less ignorant. Even though maybe it hurt, but okay, we can improve on that." I've always said, I'd rather people would joke to my face than behind my back. at least if they are joking to my face I know. It's still cool. \[laughs\] **Adisa:** Exactly. **Sonny:** Someone says something behind your back and then, "Oh God, why is it they're not happy?" \[laughs\] I love it. **Adisa:** True. **Sonny:** When we then get into how you're giving these lessons to kids, the actual-- We know how it all works, how it all links up now. When the rubber hits the road, how we give the lessons to the kids. How are you actually going in and doing that? Then I'd love to get into some of the specifics that-- I've got a list here but we can get into first just how you're going through the actual emotions. **Adisa:** The first job is to usually help them just love chess. I just got a message from a young lady who heard me on my podcast on Bishop Chronicles and I was like, "Look, just play chess. Don't worry about trying to become a master. Just do that." She was like, "Why are you encouraging people not to become a master? I don't understand." I was like, "Because you have to [teach them to love the game](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) first. You don't want to master anything you don't love. In order for you to love it, you have to like it." You have to like it. If chess is a chore and it sucks, you're not going to want to be a chess master. If jujutsu is just rowdy and you're getting slammed and broke up all the time, you're not going to want to master it. You see what I'm saying? This is why I love the dynamic role that drilling has played in over the years. I love how Heaton talked about keeping it playful. It's not murder, murder, murder every round, every time. You have to have fun with it. It's from that place of fun that you find your creativity. It's from that place of fun that you find the time to think about a position in a way you couldn't if the person was just trying to take your head off every time. The first thing I do is I try to just teach the kids to enjoy chess. Just to enjoy it. Then now that you enjoy it, now they want to be competitive. "I want to play you. You play me, blah, blah, blah." Now I can introduce the last strategies. When I go in the juvenile halls, whether they're in St. Louis-- We have a program in St. Louis that's gone on since 2014. Shout out to Michael Wessel . He's the guy that works in the St. Louis. He's running that on his own since 2014. He's a martial artist and he's a chess player. He just makes the kids fall-- We can't really show them jujutsu in the hall because obviously there are the people in the hall who can't afford for kids to be knowing choke holds for a bunch of reasons **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I hear you. \[laughter\] **Adisa:** For kids who are in the hall, I'm just going to teach them chess and life strategies. That's all they're going to get. At schools, when I teach, it's usually a mix of just chess fundamentals and jujutsu fundamentals, but a lot of the jujutsu fundamentals actually don't really deal with submissions. They just deal with, how do you escape a headlock? How do you not get head locked? Your older brother grab you by the head or your homie grab you by-- How do you get out of that? If you get pinned, mount escapes. You know what I mean? I really don't show a lot of submissions in the high schools and stuff like that because I just-- People-- **Sonny:** It makes sense. **Adisa:** Even though you're teaching these kids, it's dangerous and especially if you teach in gang-related areas. You know what I'm saying. Stuff can get crazy real quick. Because I don't know their temperament, I need to make sure that I'm giving them things that will keep them safe but not potentially harm others. It's only after I know that, "This kid's legit." Now I can point him in the direction of a school, call the guy, I say, "Hey, this kid's legit. Let him train with you." Whatever. They may go on their own like, "I just joined a house in Barkley." You know what I'm saying. "I just joined Heroes or I just joined Denis." "Cool." That's how it really plays out. It's not a one size fits all thing. I have to tailor-make my situation for the kids. My first actual student was a young man who in retrospect-- I'm not really sure if he was autistic but he might have been on the Asperger spectrum. You know what I'm saying? He was very shy, didn't have a lot of friends, et cetera. Actually, even though it sounds crazy, Hip Hop Chess Federation used to have a whole competitive cheerleading branch that competed all over the country and was good. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** It's all battling. It's all battling. \[laughter\] **Adisa:** Exactly. They all played chess. They all played chess. His sister was a cheerleader. His dad was like, "Would you be interested in teaching jujutsu to my son?" I was like, "Yes." He came in and he barely spoke. He barely spoke. When I say barely spoke, barely hello. You know what I mean? I said, "Can I show you what jujutsu is?" He says, "Okay." I show him escape from the mount. I show him whatever, passing the guard. Then we sat down and I was like, "Do you play chess?" He's like, "Yes." We played a game of chess and I was like, "Now, do you see how that happened? That's just like when this happened. Does it not make sense?" He was like, "Yes." I was like, "Do you want to learn jujutsu?" He was like, "Yes." He came through, he trains with me for three months and I think it was the US Open, comes. I said, "Do you want to compete. I think you could do good." He was like, "Yes." His dad was nervous because he's like, "Yes, if he gets mopped. I don't know what's going to happen to my son's brain. Is he going to be hell of sad? I don't know." I said, "Look, I think he can do it. I think we've run through enough whatever. The day of the competition, we show up. I think it was the first match of the day. The place is empty. We're at the US Open in Santa Cruz, the place is empty. I can see the other kid in the bullpen and he's looking at my guy, My guy's looking at him and I can see he's getting nervous. Now he's like, "Dang, it's getting real. I'm actually going to go out here and have a match." I said, "Come here bro, come here, come here." Then he's like, "What's up?" I said, "Do you know who Garry Kasparov is? The chess grandmaster?" He was like, "Yes." I said, "Listen to me. He said, "Never let your opponent show you what they're capable of." You know what I'm talking about?" He's like, "Yes." I said, "Bro when that ref says go, shoot. Shoot. Don't wait, don't circle, don't wonder. All you have to do is do what you're trained to do. You know the route. You know what we're trying to do, you know the positions. There's nothing to be afraid of. Nothing will happen to you that you haven't already felt. You've been cross-choked before. You've been arm-locked before. People have had your back before. People have passed your guard, but you've also done the same. When that guy says, go, shoot, handle your business, and just listen to me." He's like, "Okay." I said, "Remember what Garry Kasparov said." He goes, "Okay." Bro, I got the video. As soon as the dude says, "Go." He just dropped. Boom. Gets the mount off top. The kid turns his back. \[claps\] Monteleone. Bro. He took silver that day. **Sonny:** Beautiful. **Adisa:** He took silver that day. It wasn't about the medal, it was that he went out and he did it. His father could not believe that that was his son. He couldn't believe it. That was a dope moment. You know what I mean? That was a dope moment. There were a lot of those little moments that come and go. To be fully fair, there's a lot of kids that I lose to the streets. You know what I mean? You have a kid you're mentoring, like one of the first group of kids I mentored at one high school, this one Latino dude, he's in high school, I was like, "What do you want to be?" He's like, "I want to be a scientist," but he didn't know any Latino scientists. So I would tell him about how the Incas invented the zero around the same time as the people of India, but they never had any contact. I was like, "Isn't that crazy that two people who live so far away have the same idea, but they don't have any contact? That's nuts," whatever. Anyway, get to the summer, bro, by the time I come back, he's a validated gang member. He don't care about chess, he don't care about nothing but the streets, and I don't even know where he's at right now. There's a lot more of them than the kid that I just told you about, but you have to go through these things and you have to depersonalize it, you know what I mean. It was hard for me, I got really emotional back in the day. I lost a lot of kids to the streets. A lot of the boys became bangers, some of the girls became prostitutes, some of the kids just got killed, you know what I'm saying, but then you have other kids who graduate. Like one of the kids who I mentored went to Pitzer College on a full ride, and now he's going to medical school to be a dentist. You never know what's going to stick, you don't know what's not going to stick, I just stick to my script. Kids stay, kids go, kids grow, kids get killed or fall off, and you just have to keep going. **Sonny:** Yes, man, really puts it in perspective when you think a lot of people might complain about losing a [student to go join another Jiu-Jitsu school](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) or something like that. \[laughter\] **Adisa:** Right, and he's representing North Daniels. **Sonny:** Yes, and that's a big deal. It could be worse, yes. **Adisa:** Exactly. **Sonny:** Okay, so when you go into the schools, you're teaching the kids life strategies. I think a good place to start would be one of the things you promote is the idea of the chessboard and the open mind. **Adisa:** Yes, the chessboard and the open mind, right. **Sonny:** Is that a good place to jump off? **Adisa:** That is because what I'm trying to teach people about is like the chessboard, obviously, is a checkerboard and it reminds me of the yin and the yang. You look at the Yin Yang, you've got the black with a white dot, you have a white with a black dot. Depending on how much you study Daoism, it looks like just a polar opposite thing, but also teaches people to see the good in something bad, or the bad in something good. To be less judgmental, but when you look at the chessboard, what you're really looking at is infinite potential. When you look at the chessboard and you can look up the numbers for yourself, as soon as each person moves, all of the potential that's on that board in terms of moves outnumbers the stars. When you can see that your own mind has that same flexibility, has that same potential, and all you have to do is tap into it, all kinds of new things happen. I think that one of the main reasons that kids, especially disenfranchised youth, fall for drugs, fall for alcohol, fall for pimping and everything else, and gang life is because they don't see how many options are available. They think that, "Everybody in my family's broke, so I'm going to be broke," or "Everybody in my family bang, so I'm going to bang" or whatever and really, that's not the case. You always have options. I like to teach people to understand that their mind is just as infinite in its potential as all the moves on the chessboard, but they have to trust it, and then they have to act on it. **Sonny:** I like that a lot. Then it seems that one of the tangible ways you can put that into effect is you've got two kind of equations, one being the three PA is better than one NT, and then the PPC code. **Adisa:** The PPC code, right. Three PA is greater than one NT. That means three positive actions are greater than one negative thought. What that really deals with is coming to grips with taking charge of your life. One of the things that I love about chess is that when you sit down at a board, that board don't know whether you're black or white, don't know whether you got one parent, two parents, no parents. Don't know whether you're hella rich or hella broke. It doesn't know. It's only going to reward the person who brings the best moves. End of story. That's it. That's all. What three positive action is greater than one negative thought is about is a lot of times when people have anxiety, they're concerned about the future to a point that they can't control it and they're stressed out by it. When people are depressed, they're locked into the past. Whether they were abused or they made a mistake and whatever, but they can't change that either. You can only change right now. What three PA is greater than one NT is about is about taking three positive actions in every day to combat a negative thought in your brain. I normally talk about it to kids in terms of an algebra test. Let's say you're three weeks away from an algebra test, and you're doing okay, you'll probably get a C based on where you're at right now. What three things can you do today to be better at algebra? You can go on to YouTube, you can call your teacher say, "I don't know what's going on here," or you could reach out to a student and say, "Hey, man, I noticed you understand some of these equations better than me, can you help me?" Okay, that's for today. Now, tomorrow, you may do three totally different things. You may talk to a family member, you may go back and look in the book, the chapter before that you're in just to make sure your fundamental understanding of algebra is okay. You may look at some old tests you did and try to correct them yourself, but these were measurable steps. Three weeks from now, if you do three things every day, you won't be stressed out, you'll sleep better, and chances are you're going to get a much better grade, but not because you're Superman, it's because you took action. That you don't let the world happen to you. That you take control. Look, there's always things that you can't control like if your principal, or your parent, or the teacher you're dealing with isn't cool with you, whatever, you can't really control that, but they can't stop you from studying. It takes 21 days to make a habit, it takes 90 days to create a lifestyle, and so if you can make a habit of taking movement, you're doing chest. When you're in a bad position in chess, like if you're playing Scrabble, you can throw your bad letters back. Pick a whole new set of letters and try to play it off. Chess ain't like that. You got to deal with the position as it is. If it sucks, it sucks, figure it out, whatever. That's what three PA is greater than one NT is about. I usually, even for myself, when I'm going through really dark times, and really weak times that are bothering me, I figure out okay, what three things can I do today? What happens is, when you make a habit of doing three, then all of a sudden you'd be like, "That was easy, let me do a fourth thing. Let me do 10 things." Then all of a sudden, nothing's just going to happen to you because your default setting is to be like, "Oh, it's looking bad. I bet I could do this, though" or "My boss is getting on my ass right now, but I bet I could do this though." You become a solution-based person. That's for short term goal-setting. Now, the PPC code is patience, planning, and courage. It's like a triangle. At the base of the triangle, you have your planning because you can't do nothing without a plan, then you have patience on the left side, and then you have courage descending on the right. Planning speaks for itself. If you don't have a plan, you usually lose your way or whatever or waste a lot of energy even if you do meet your goal, but then we talk about patience. Patience I think is a misunderstood beautiful thing in the world. One of the last times that I was down in Toronto, which is a long time ago, but I was there and I was hanging out with a heater on and there was a shirt and it said, "Placencia" on the chest, and then under it,it said, "Lose this lose everything." I love that shirt. I wore it out. \[laughter\] I love that shirt. The reason is because I had already had the PPC code when I saw that shirt, but I really wanted it, but the deal is patience. When I say patience to most kids, I go, "So what does it mean when you're patient?" and they always go like, "I'm waiting." Like you're waiting in line for a hamburger or something. I said, "Yes, but that's not what patience is." Patience, going back to the PPC code because we're going from short term goal planning to long term, is the work you do while you wait for your opportunity. People, it's a sunny day right here, so if I go, "Hey, you all want to go play hoops?" everybody will come outside and play hoops, and you say, "I want to be a professional basketball player," but then when it's raining, and you say, "Hey, let's go play hoops," everybody's like, "Man, I ain't going outside, it's freezing outside, man. It's hella wet outside," but that person who goes to shoot, he's got patience because he knows through that diligence of coming out and shooting all the time, when the big game comes, when the Scout shows up, when the pressure is on from that other high school that they know they got a good defensive dude over there, he's going to be ready. Patience isn't just sitting around, it's doing the work anyway when there's really no reason to do it. Now, what is courage? Courage is about a lot of times, and I'm speaking for myself personally, there's a lot of things that I didn't do well because I was afraid to succeed, and so you see somebody who's like a singer, and you go, "Oh, hey, Jerry, what do you like to do?" "I'm a singer," da, da, da, da. So you go to see Beyonce sing, and then Beyonce is coming down the stairs and she falls, and they're like, "Oh my God, we got to take her to the hospital. Who here can sing?" You go, "Jerry, you can sing, right?" Then Jerry's like, "I can sing, but--" It's like, "No, dude, you got to have the courage right now to step on that stage and be like, 'All right, give me the mic, bro.'" "Oh, Beyonce fell and Jerry saved the day with his great voice." A lot of us are afraid, and so we need that courage, in the long run, to finish what we start. It takes courage. I don't care whether it's Jiu-Jitsu, whether it's just, like I said, my son just graduated college, my daughter just finished her first year of college. It takes courage to do all of that stuff. It takes courage to apply for a job you really want but think you might not get. If you can make these things a consistent pattern, you will get breakthroughs that other people just simply don't get. Just like on a chessboard, pawns are short-range weapons, knights are mid-range weapons, bishops and queens are long-range weapons. Even the king is a short-range weapon because he can't protect a pawn to get a new queen. There's all kinds of weaponry, but you have to know what weapon do you need right now. If you use a knight to do a bishop's job, you're coming up short. If you use a rook to do a pawn's job, you're coming up short. You need to know what weaponry is best. Is it a Close Guard, De La Riva, Straight Open Guard, Rubber Guard? You got to have the sensibility to figure out for the short and long-term what's going to get you through. **Sonny:** I really like that. The three PA being greater than one NT, it's like, man, that's just good, useful, actionable advice that everyone can implement into their own life. **Adisa:** It's hollering because you realize that it doesn't matter what happens, you still have options. That's my thing is even when it looks like A and B is all there is, there's always a C. There's almost always a C, but you have to be patient enough and you have to train yourself to be creative enough to look for that opportunity, and then have to be courageous enough to try and close on it. **Sonny:** Again, courage it's huge, especially in martial artists. Sometimes you have people that go into competitions and, of course, some win, some lose. People try and put it down to win or learn or as long as you enjoyed it or everything, but it is just that, "Hey, you got out there while everyone else is on the couch, that's enough, man." **Adisa:** It really is and it doesn't feel like that when the other guy's getting his hand raised, and it doesn't feel like that when you didn't make it to the podium or you're not at the top of the podium, but the truth of the matter is it takes a lot of courage to get out there and compete in anything. Be it cheerleading, chess, Jiu-Jitsu, it takes a lot. You have to be patient with yourself and give yourself time to have that presence and that patience and your moment of victory always comes. It's very rare that someone stays in the thing and stays horrible forever. It's very rare, very hard to do, but you have to take the shots, you have to learn from the damage you take, and listen to other people, and you'll be good. **Sonny:** Yes, I like that and I think part of that is probably while you're in the game of whatever it is you're doing is paying attention to the details of what's going on within that game and I think that's something else that you talk about with the pawn structure. **Adisa:** Yes, pawn structure. **Sonny:** Can you expand on that a little? **Adisa:** Yes, absolutely. I talked about pawn structure and paying attention to details. Pawns, as we know, are technically the weakest pieces on the board, but if you have what's called the pawn chain, where the pawns are holding together and it's connected in a diagonal, if anything takes that pawn, the pawn behind it will always capture whatever took it. I used to play with this one kid, he used to kill me when we were playing because we're playing games, and he would always have this one pawn that he would push a little bit halfway, but then let him sit for the rest of the game. Then when you start losing, you know like everybody starts losing pieces, there's this one pawn on like the A5 who's like three squares away, and you have a knight, so you can't get over there in three hops, he's going to get a queen. It's this attention to details. Understanding A, how connected pawns can protect you, and how little details in the pawn structure can be the difference between you getting a queen towards the end of the game, or being so far away you never have a chance to really get him over there. These are the things that we need to pay attention to in life. How many times have you almost had a clock choke, but you didn't. Either you reached too deep or you were way too shallow. How many times you watch somebody do a cross choke from the closed guard and you're like, "He is \[crosstalk\] , that's not going to work." You see him just burn his forearms out like \[mimics\] . You're like, "Bro, you're not getting that choke, it's not happening," but once you make a habit of like, "Where do I want my thumb? Oh, I turn the blade like that, he ain't leaving now." You have to understand those things, and so that's all part of the pawn structure. **Sonny:** Yes, I like that because I've been actually doing that a lot with my Jiu-Jitsu training, is focusing, especially with collar chokes because we have one hand here, one hand here, bring it together, but really just stopping to take a moment and think, "Hey, okay, I'm trying to lock the two carotid arteries that around this position of the neck, so where's my pressure going? Is it on those carotid arteries? If it's not, what can I do to fix it?" **Adisa:** Right, "Does he have too much posture for me to really do this or do I have them close enough to me?" There's all kinds of stuff, man. Those details, they make all the difference. **Sonny:** That's the difference. The difference that makes the difference, that's what we're all about here, mate.Going on with the pawns, there's also an idea of the Pawn to Queen Threat Assessment, or was that covered in that as well? **Adisa:** No, so Pawn to Queen Threat Assessment is a little different. I used to coach soccer for a bunch of years. If you're playing soccer with someone and a teammate yells at you like, "Come on, man, get on the ball, bro. Don't let him" da, da, da, and you start thinking about him yelling at you about the ball, you're distracted. That's not what's important. What's important is that you just play your best game, don't worry about that and keep it moving. If you stay on top of your player, or if you stay dribbling, and maneuvering, you're going to win. That's the queen. Focus on your queen and what she can do. You have to understand that you can't be distracted by every little thing. What is the most important thing at this time? I remember one time when I was a white belt, this dude was trying to choke me. I think it was a cross choke or something and I was trying to pass the guard and I wasn't defending the choke, and Huff was just sitting there shaking his head like, "What the heck?" I said, "Damn, I don't understand what happened?" He said, "When someone's choking you, deal with the choke, okay? Don't try to pass a guy's guard if he has your neck. That's the priority." It's training yourself to see the priority of the moment rather than doing what you want to do when you really can't. I want to pass his guard, I'm not going to because I'm about to have to wake up in a little bit if I don't address the choke. **Sonny:** Now, that makes a lot of sense. The same thing's happened to me with I think a baseball bat choke or something. If I even bait the guard, pass. **Adisa:** \[laughs\] Exactly, right? You're trying to do something. **Sonny:** There was a reason they allowed that. Yes, that makes sense. **Adisa:** Exactly. **Sonny:** Too late for me, but well played for them. There's also, with the pawn, the idea of the Poison Pawn. **Adisa:** Yes, now, this is something that a lot of kids get. This is one of the things of all the things I came up with that I noticed they got quickly. A Poison Pawn is a thing where someone will put a pawn out there that looks really easy and you'll usually have to use your queen to go get it, but then once you put that queen out there, your opponent can set up other pieces to trap her and then take her. What was the deal? In chess, a lot of people don't know that all the pieces have value. The pawn is worth one, the Knights and the bishops are worth three, the rooks are worth five, and the queen is worth nine. Now, the king, he is priceless, so he doesn't have because if there's no king, there's no game, but she's worth nine. You just basically gave $9 for $1. I always equate it for money. You took $1, but then they took $9 from you. That's a big loss. Nobody wants to deal with that. Don't go out there. How many times in the day or in your life have you taken something that looked easy and cheap, but in the long term, it cost you? So what happened, this is a true story, there was a kid who I was trying to mentor, but I really didn't mentor him. He lived in an area that was pretty boring and stuff like that. This is when the iPhones first came out. Him and his friends were totally bored. A guy comes down the street on a bike, a new BMX bike that looked hella sick, and he had an iPhone in his hand. They were like, "Let's beat his ass and take the phone," so they did. Ping-pung, took the phone. "This is fresh, what does this thing do?" Then they're peddling around, whatever, they take off. When they come home, cops are waiting for them at the house. The DA charged them all as adults. The dude didn't even graduate high school, he went straight to jail, bro. Didn't graduate because they charged him with more than six felonies. Now they got it broken down to two, they were able to negotiate it down to two felonies. They still had to do time. Now, what was that about? In the short run, it's like, "We're bored, we want to have fun, let's go slap this dude up, show them we're the alphas, take his stuff," but in the long run, you ruined your whole life. I tell people what is the Poison Pawn? Like when you're hanging with the homies and they go, "Let's rob that fool," you should know, as fun as that might be and as much empowered as you're going to feel in that moment, that is not a good idea. Now in business, I'll show you how it also plays out. True story. A friend of mine, a VP at a Silicon Valley company, killing the game. He's not a VP, he's like a top director. They make him, they're like, "Hey, do you want this position?" He's like, "Yes, I'll take a position." So then he takes the position, they have a whole ceremony for him, whatever. Two weeks later, "Oh, yes, we have to cut all our executives, you're out." He was a VP for like two months. Now, when he took that position, he didn't think about the idea that they might be getting rid of people. He wasn't thinking about where's the company? What is the trajectory of the company at? Now, the same situation, a few years later, another friend has a position at a growing media company, and they call him into the office one day and they're like, "We think you're awesome. We'd like to give you a promotion." He sat back and thought of everything and he was like, "I don't want that promotion." They were like, "What?" We're killing the game" and da, da. He's like, "You know what, I just like what I'm doing" da, da, da, held on. Wave of layoffs came a year later. Whoosh, he's kept his position. They want another promotion, he didn't take it, another wave of layoffs. Once the company got stable, then he took the thing because he thought. These two people don't even know each other. They're unrelated people, unrelated industries, but this is about not taking what looks easy at the time. You don't pick up the poison pawn. Anything that looks easy without contemplating serious reflection, you should just ignore it because, in the long run, it can cost you. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear that. I won't go into any personal stories of my own, but I get you. We've all done it, right? **Adisa:** We've all done it. **Sonny:** That's a universal life experience probably. **Adisa:** Sometimes the Poison Pawn is another pointer. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I know exactly what you're saying. I guess that's your idea of things being too good, they may be too good to be true, being careful. **Adisa:** Yes, not really assessing the total value of what they're offering. You don't have to pick up everything that someone offers you, that's the idea. **Sonny:** Just knowing being able to step back and make a decision based on more than just the initial allure of something. **Adisa:** Yes, and the excitement of that. **Sonny:** The excitement, yes because everyone can get wrapped up in the excitement, that's for sure. Then there's another idea you talk about that might be the opposite of that, which is that people can actually block their blessings. **Adisa:** Yes, it's called blocking your blessings, and these are all worksheets by the way that are in the book. Blocking your blessings comes from a chess game that I saw where, basically, these two dudes were playing and one guy had another guy's king surrounded pretty much. I was pretty sure the game was going to be over. Then when I bounced and I came back, the guy who had his king surrounded had won the game. I couldn't believe it. I didn't understand how the dude who had his king surrounded had won and I was like, "Can we run it back a little bit? What do you remember about this position? Show me what happened." He's like, "We were here, then we were there, then we're here, then we're there. He did that, I did that, and he did this, and I did that." What I realized is the guy who was attacking didn't have any coordination of his pieces, and so many times, he was actually in his own way and the pieces weren't protecting each other. So the king and some pawns were able to take some big pieces, and it totally ruined the initial advantage. That was probably the first life and chess lesson that I could discern. I remember saying, "How many times do you think you get in your own way in your life?" He's like, "I don't know, dude," so we started thinking about it. It's this idea like a lot of us we talk about haters, we talk about, oh, so and so at the job don't like me, so and so in school don't like me, or these fools at the Jiu-Jitsu don't like me or whatever, but how much of it is really just you, bro, not training? How much of it is you, Mike, not really thinking about how your diet is, or how much cardio do you do outside of training? Or you're in school, but how much homework do you really do? They say that you suck at math, but you don't really study. Tell the truth, you're not really studying. They're not really hating, and so it's about taking responsibility for your own shortcomings instead of blaming others. **Sonny:** That's huge, especially in [martial arts training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/). It's like you have to, it's all on you. It's easy to, "Oh, the training partners aren't good enough, the gym needs better whatever." **Adisa:** Coach isn't talking to me enough. **Sonny:** That's a big one, they should be paying more attention to me, which, in some situation, maybe that's true, of course, but a lot of the time, it's, hey, you've got to take charge. **Adisa:** You got to step in, totally. **Sonny:** You do break it down into the three phases of combat with that martial arts element. Combat safety, position, and finish. **Adisa:** Right, safety, position, and finish. This was an idea that Gumby gave to me over a heroes martial arts in San Jose, shout out to Gumby. All the homies over there. He was like, "This essentially is the three phases of what a fight is, whether it's individual or whatever. First you keep yourself safe, then you improve your position, then you try to finish your opponent." I started thinking about that in chess, castling early. I like to castle early. Getting my king safe, then I can be more free to attack. Once I know that my castle is tucked away and he's got some people in front of him, okay, he's good, now I can go. Then once you get to the highest level of a positional dominance, now you go try to kill the king. Just like in Jiu-Jitsu, you take them down, try to pass the guard if you've got to pass the guard, get them out, and then once you get to the highest position, you go for a finish. You try to end the match. A lot of times if you're trying to, like the time I was getting choked out but I'm trying to pass, it goes back to some of these things slightly overlap where you get like, what is my priority? If you're trying to finish a guy but you don't have the full position, he may escape the mount. If you try to checkmate a person but you haven't really secured all the square cut-offs, you can lose your queen. In the course of it, there's checkmate. Actually, no, there's a knight right there, boop. Now you just lost your queen because you didn't really have the position the way you thought you had it. It's about really understanding the totality of which phase you need to be in through the course of your battle. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I think everyone in martial arts will relate to that for sure. There's another idea that you've got, worksheets, which I'm going to recommend everyone gets the book too to go through them is who controls your illusion of options. **Adisa:** Yes, totally. I spoke about this a little bit before when people try to make you think it's A or it's B, but there's a C. Really, it's A to Z. There's all kinds of options. Look at this situation we're in right now. Life worked really different just a few months ago, and now it's totally different, but guess what, people still got to go to school, people still got to try to exercise, people still got to try to get information. I hate not being able to train right now, but what do I do for cardio? I'm jumping rope, I do solo drills, and that's going to be what my Jiu-Jitsu is for a while. Even when things look broke down and shut down, that more often than not, there is an opportunity for you to step up, to step into something, to find a way. Again, if you use your Jiu-Jitsu training, you use your chest training, you use your artistic training to look for new opportunities, you usually will, but if you believe that people say, "No, it's just A or B." No, it's not A or B. If technology and the history of technology in the last 30 years has taught us anything is that we can find a way. Look when nobody used cell phones at all. Remember when people used to be like, "Oh, why do I need a personal computer? Why would I ever need a computer in my home?" Yes, let me take a computer from your home right now and you can just start cooking meat like a caveman because you got no options because you don't have a computer in your home. Things change quick. It's about look at all that innovation, look inside Jiu-Jitsu. Look at how the Japanese take Kodokan Judo to a point, Maeda goes to Brazil, Helio takes what they gave him, builds on it. His sons come to America, American wrestlers and people like Eddie Bravo. What if we did this? What if we did that? Because we already have a big wrestling tradition here. The way that we approach Jiu-Jitsu is way different just because of Graeco-Roman and freestyling folk traditions. Then Jiu-Jitsu gets a whole new spectrum of positions. Then you look at all of that and then the internet happens. Because I remember when certain moves were rumors before YouTube. "Hey, have you heard of the reverse standing reverse standing omoplata?" "Yes, I don't know how it works, but I heard it's pretty dope." "You can go find out in YouTube five minutes, bro." In competition, see it played out. Whereas before, a lot of techniques were secret. Half will show you something, "Don't nobody show this, but check this out." There isn't that anymore. Every school had that, had a certain series of moves or a concept that they kept to themselves. Now because of the internet, some blue belt can do something spontaneously and we all see that and go, "I'm about to add that to the Foot Locker repertoire, that was hot." Now we're all doing it. This is how quick innovation happens, so we always have that. **Sonny:** Oh, man, it's changed so quick. The last month or two, over the last couple of years, everyone started putting techniques online. If it came before, no one would do it and now, everyone's got instructionals and world champ's got their YouTube **Adisa:** I remember when MG and action hit. Remember when Marcella was like, "Yes, you can just come in and I'll just show everything," and we're like, "Whoa." **Sonny:** Then everyone was still like, "Oh, you can't learn Jiu-Jitsu online." Now in the last couple of months, man. **Adisa:** We're doing it. **Sonny:** In the last month, you better be [learning your Jiu-Jitsu online](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) over YouTube, otherwise, everyone's going broke. **Adisa:** That's right, and you ain't going to survive, homie. **Sonny:** That's it, which I'm fine with because we've got to make those. **Adisa:** Right, exactly. **Sonny:** It is funny how quickly attitudes and opinions can change on something like that. **Adisa:** Remember when Jiu-Jitsu guys would be like, "Katas are trash. Who needs katas? I need real people, bro. We just got to be out here. We're running the shoots, dog, running the shots. That's what it is." "Yes, I won't be seeing you for like two years, so enjoy the katas." **Sonny:** Everyone's still on katas now. Everyone wish they had more katas. People at home coming up with katas. **Adisa:** You know who the first person I knew who had katas in Jiu-Jitsu? **Sonny:** Who? **Adisa:** Denny Prokopos because even though he trained with Eddie, he lived here in the Bay. When Eddie would show him stuff, he would invent solo drills on his own so he could remember all that stuff, and then he'd come back and still be as good, if not better, than a lot of the dudes that were training with Eddie all the time, and it was because of those katas, those solo drills. Then a lot of other people eventually started doing, I think, on their own, but I'm just saying in my life, I remember Denny being the first, too. **Sonny:** It's funny how much Eddie Bravo and 10th Planet is coming up in my conversations just because of how many areas they did seem to innovate. I was talking to B Mac yesterday, Brandon McCatherine. I don't think I got the name right, but we was talking about how the 10th Planet warm-ups are really katas, that those guys do now, they're totally katas. **Adisa:** Right, and that was something that was unthinkable because really, if you look at the 10th Planet, the way that they run this stuff now, those are just katas now chained. **Sonny:** Exactly, right. **Adisa:** They're just chained katas as opposed to random individual katas. Armbar drill, guard pass drill. Now armbar, pass, da, da, da, and that's what those things become and it's beautiful, man. That's a blend of Jiu-Jitsu culture with technology culture that makes all of that possible because if you rewind the game 15 years, it's impossible. It doesn't exist. **Sonny:** That's right. **Adisa:** Even if you have it, you have it in some fragmented segment that's not applicable on a global level. **Sonny:** In terms of blending it all together and bringing it all together, even 10th Planet when they were coming out, there was a lot of pushback against how they were doing it, taken off the gate that's going to ruin Jiu-Jitsu. **Adisa:** Yes, exactly. **Sonny:** That deviations, creating more diversity was actually going to be terrible to these traditions, but you've also got a worksheet talking about how this unity and diversity. **Adisa:** Yes, unity and diversity. That idea is that it's got several layers to it like most things in chess or Jiu-Jitsu or hip hop, it's got several layers to it. The first is that you have a specific way of playing your Jiu-Jitsu game. Are you more of a passer or are you more of a guard player just out of curiosity? What are you? **Sonny:** A passer now, white belt, blue belt **\[unintelligible 01:35:59\]** **Adisa:** When I started, I was more of a guard player, then I became more of a passer, but the idea is you evolve and you have different strengths and the other people have things that you just don't have. The idea is, mentally, you need to surround yourself with people who don't think like you because if everybody thinks like you, you'll fall victim to the same traps. On the streets, why do gangsters always fall and people who be in gangs fall for the same stuff? Because no one tells him, "You know what, this gang shit's trash, actually. I'm going to quit and go get a job." Because they fall victim to the same thing, "Oh, I'm on a gun charge." Then things add up and the next thing you know, the DA done thrown hella stuff at you and now you're doing hella time. You need to have someone who thinks different than you and not be mad at people who think different than you. It's good that Eddie Bravo thought different, it's good that Helio thought different than Maeda. If everybody just would've stuck with what came out of the Kodokan, we'd literally be doing Japanese techniques from a long time ago, but we have to think differently. It's also about unity and diversity, it's about having different kinds of people around you. I'm an African American Muslim, but I hang out with atheists who are white from Germany, or I might hang out with a Canadian Catholic. It doesn't matter, bro. You need different people around you so that you can be growing because if you don't have different people around you, they're going to give you ideas that are going to change your life. They might give you ideas that save your life, and it doesn't matter where these ideas come from, it only really matters that you get them and you're able to exercise them. I try to not have too many people that think like me around me as a general rule because I think it's dangerous. Just in the old days, like I talked about, dudes from Gracie Barra would never train with 10th Planet. Dudes from Nova Uniao, what? Training when Gracie Barra, that was blasphemy of the highest order, boy, you come up missing. "Oh, I was just training with Nova Uniao last week." No, you get dragged into the basement. No, dude, you take it all, man. It's all beautiful, it's all Jiu-Jitsu, man, we need to relax. We need to relax and understand that every innovation is good for the game. Every innovation is good for the game even if it's not for everybody. That's the vibe. **Sonny:** I love that, the point about having different viewpoints and bringing other people's perspectives in, and making friends with people who have different thoughts and ideas, or just coming from a different background because especially in today's world where people get into their silos driven by online social media, where the algorithms stuff, making sure you only ever see people you agree with and you can just click away. **Adisa:** It's not good, man. **Sonny:** I think that's a big problem. **Adisa:** It is. It's a huge social problem, man. It creates illusions of just being right all the time, it creates illusions of superiority, whether that's racial, political, social. It's not real, man. Again, Hip-Hop Chess Federation, first and foremost, about any of the stuff is really about nonviolence, man. About being a peaceful human being, about not using the martial arts. I'm always sick and saddened when you see somebody who comes in and, let's say, they're an off-brand nerd because so many of us are, and then they start learning Jiu-Jitsu and they become the bully that they said they hated, and you're like, "Whoa, so you get a blue belt now, you're coming in a leather jacket, shoving fools? What happened, bro?" Getting back to the philosophy lacking in Ju-Jitsu. That's how that happens because the guy comes, he sees Colby Covington, and then he thinks he wants to be like Colby. You might want to wrestle like Colby, but there could be some other aspects of Colby that are socially troubling and not good for a greater diverse society, but you can like his wrestling though. Take his wrestling, trash the rest of that, bro and keep it moving. I remember there was a guy who does Ju-Jitsu who is Jewish and we were talking about Allekan, he played for the Germans World War II, a kind of a Nazi and whatnot. He told me how much he liked certain things from Allekan and I was like, "You study his work? That dude was a Nazi." He was like, "Yes, but he was good though. I can see he was a Nazi, see what he took tactically, and then trash the rest of them because he was a Nazi and I hate him." \[laughter\] I was like, "That's awesome." I've really striven to develop that where I don't let any really bad aspect of a person keep me from seeing the good value in a lot of whatever else they brought to the game. That's all. **Sonny:** That's a big topic of conversation, that one alone, if you can separate the art from the artist or if it's possible. **Adisa:** Yes, it's a grimy, grimy thing. It's not always possible, to be frank with you, but where it is and you can, you should. **Sonny:** I hear that, especially that illusion of being right all the time now, it's just so frequent. **Adisa:** It's going to be a cancer to humanity if you can't chill out. **Sonny:** So bad. **Adisa:** It's going to be a cancer to humanity. **Sonny:** Yes, you can go through now with your world views and never be proven wrong if you don't want to. It's totally up to you. **Adisa:** It's true, you can just be in your bubble. **Sonny:** Do you want to be right all the time? I've got the world view for you, just click come over here. There's lots of them too. It's not one or two, there's little sub-groups. That's a topic for another day. **Adisa:** Yes, but you're right though, it's real. **Sonny:** Because this has been a long discussion, but it's one that I really wanted to have. **Adisa:** I'm really grateful, man. This is fantastic. I appreciate you for having me on. **Sonny:** My pleasure. As I'm thinking about the clock, maybe you can tell me about what the chess clock represents in the Hip Hop Chess Federation? **Adisa:** Man, I'm really glad that you asked that as one of the last questions because it's a really big deal. In chess, there's a clock. Basically, let's say, we're going to have a five-minute game. I start and I hit the clock and what that's going to do is when I press the clock, it starts your time, so your time starts ticking down from five. When you move, you hit the clock and my clock starts ticking down from five. Now, if neither one of us checkmate each other, whoever ran out of time first, loses. This is a big deal because in life, all of us only have a limited amount of time and we don't know. Like America's lost like 80,000 people from COVID at this point, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Adisa:** Four months ago, they were thinking about what they were going to do 20 years from now, and they're not here for real. The only difference between them and us is that our time hasn't come yet. Every time our heartbeats, every time we blink, that's one last blink, that's one last heartbeat. The chess clock represents the finality of death and maximizing the use of your time on this earth while you're here. If anything, COVID has helped refine my Islamic and stoic self to be all of who I really want to be and do all of what I really want to do. I had a situation where a friend of mine spent most of their time just looking for the right person. After a bunch of years, they found this person and she was like, "Yes, I'm about to get married in a couple of months. I'm moving over to this one stake, we're going to get together. We're engaged." He's dead. I was like, "Yo, that is some heartbreaking triple tragic stuff right there." To finally find the love of your life, be getting ready, got your new job, everything looks good, and now that person is dead. This is why the chess clock is here. It is a reminder of death. It is a reminder of the finality, not to be morbid, not to be crude, not to be cold. Everybody hearing this at some point will no longer be here and at some point, I will no longer be here. What are you doing today to bring yourself joy? What are you doing today to enrich your higher physical, spiritual, mental clarity? Because we all, and I'm triple guilty of it, that's why I built a lot of this stuff, it's to break my own cycles of laziness, to break my own cycles of being caught up and down on myself, break my own cycle of creating more stress around things I had more control of than I understood. That's what the chess clock is about, man. The finality of life and having gratitude from that place. Later when I learned about stoicism, the stoic said memento mori, remember death because it's a purification of your gratitude. If you understand memento mori, you're going to go hug your mom. If you remember memento mori, you're going to tell your wife, you're going to tell your husband, you're going to take a minute and tell your son, "Hey, come here, man, I love you, bro. I love you and here's why" because you know you could walk out that door and might not come back. We've never been in a time where that's been more real for all of us than right now, so the chess clock is real. **Sonny:** I hear that, memento mori. That's beautiful. That's a good point to finish this up on. I think I'd love to have you come back. We can do another one. **Adisa:** I would love to and I got to have you on Bishop Chronicles because I got a lot of questions for you, man. **Sonny:** It would be my honor, trust me. **Adisa:** We'll hook that up real soon, I'm going to get you on. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. I think you're wonderful. What you're doing is great work. I'd love to talk about stoic philosophy, Islam. I'd love to talk about your history in the music industry as well because I know you were friends with Eazy-E, Tupac. **Adisa:** Yes, back in the day, me and Eazy, me and Pac. I got crazy stories, boy. **Sonny:** I'm sure you do. I want to hear them. I think your run with Mac Dre was around. That whole movement must have just been fascinating. **Adisa:** Bonkers. **Sonny:** I want to hear about that and how these movements happen. That's a great story. **Adisa:** So yes, I'm going to have you on Bishop Chronicles, bro. **Sonny:** Please. I know you were even at a retreat with RZA last week you said, and was it a Shaolin monk [teaching martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) or--? **Adisa:** Yes. **Sonny:** So cool. **Adisa:** I got invited by RZA to do a thing with TAZO Tea, it was called Camp TAZO. We did it in Shaolin in New York on Staten Island. I was in London at the time when I got the invite for my 50th birthday, and I was like, "You know what, I'm going to spend my time saying yes to more things. Who is the 50-year-old Adisa?" I'm asking myself. "Does he still do Jiu-Jitsu? Maybe, maybe not. Does he intermittent fast still? Maybe, maybe not. Is he a vegan, is he a meat-eater, is he carnivore? What's happening?" I was like, "Whatever else I'll figure out, for right now, I'll just say yes more." I get a message and this lady is like, "Hey, RZA, I wanted to know if you can come teach at this thing," and I'm on vacation, and so I say yes. Now, I haven't even got back to work yet and I just committed to going somewhere else. I don't know how I'm going to get there. I had a ticket from New York before I even left London. I get back to work and my boss is an 80-year-old physicist who knows nothing about hip-hop and cares much less about it. I pulled him into his office and I said, "Hey, how're you doing?" He's like, "Great, man, how was London?" I was like, "London was great, I had a fantastic time, but I got to run something by you. You know who the Rolling Stones are, correct?" He's like, "Yes." I said, "I want you to imagine that Mick Jagger wants you to come to his house and talk about physics for a day. What would you say to that?" He was like, "I would do it." I said, "There's a group called the Wu-Tang Clan and they're the Rolling Stones of right now and their Mick Jagger, a man by the name of RZA, who you need to know, has invited me to come speak about chess." He was like, "You should go do that then." I was like, "Thank you." \[sighs\] So I go and it's me, RZA, and a Shaolin monk named Shi Yan Ming. I taught about chess and life to a group of young professionals who were hitting creative walls in their life. Some of them were in tech, some of them were rappers, some of them were dancers, some of them were comedians, and we spent a day. Camp TAZO went for several days, but on my day, I met with Shi Yan Ming and RZA and there was meditation. Shi Yan Ming taught Kung Fu, I taught about chess and life, and it was bonkers. It was a beautiful thing, man. It was a beautiful thing. That was like in February. I'm very grateful to RZA for always having been a strong supporter of Hip-Hop Chess Federation, and me personally, he didn't have to invite me out, bro. He could have invited anybody. He could have invited any grandma, he could have invited Magnus Carlsen, he could have invited all these other people, but he chose me. That was a very beautiful thing. I actually talk about that on my podcast. I have a thing about the whole Camp TAZO experience. Then actually, when I got back, I was so blown away I started thinking about all the time that me and RZA have done different stuff and I found audio of me and RZA speaking to incarcerated kids in St. Louis, I had lost the file. So I added that file to another show. You hear the kids in the crowd, you hear we're talking to incarcerated boys and girls during the Ferguson uprising. St. Louis was on fire and we were literally in juvenile hall talking to kids on lockdown. This is the kind of stuff that if you tune into Bishop Chronicles you can check out, but I feel blessed to have this life, I feel blessed to have this opportunity. I do want to give a quick shout out to my brother Paul Moran who passed away from Open Mat Radio. He passed away not too long ago. When you talk about unity and diversity, that was an event that he came and spoke at a couple of years ago. His idea was to work with me to make unity and diversity something that we did everywhere. I don't have the footage or the audio from that, but I'm in search of it. I'm grateful for this opportunity, and I'm grateful for my friendship with Paul and all the people in Jiu-Jitsu. If I ever trained with you. If you were ever my instructor because I was the ultimate crunch and lazy person, I am grateful for you and know that I have never forgotten any of you, whether you were my training partners, or you were my instructors. I appreciate you all for improving me. **Sonny:** That's beautiful, man. **Adisa:** I appreciate you, Sonny for improving me and giving me this opportunity and that's true. **Sonny:** I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you too. Don't worry, straight back at you. Don't worry, the feeling's mutual, mate. That's great. Check out your podcast, Bishop Chronicles. I'm going to go do one on there as well, so we'll hook it up. We'll put the links into show notes for that. There'll also be the links to buy the book, Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx. **Adisa:** On Amazon Kindle. Kindle and paperback. **Sonny:** There you go, so you don't even have to leave the house, you can get it. You got the worksheets in there, you can go through it. It's a great book. Also, you've got some Jiu-Jitsu instructionals that I'll put links into the description of Iron Hook Scroll and the Cloud Scroll. **Adisa:** Yes, the Iron Hook Scroll and the Cloud Scroll. The Iron Hook Scroll are advanced closed guard techniques that'll really help you. It's an over hook system, an advanced over hook system. Technically, it's a long man's game, but I have short man's adaptations. It's a free PDF that you can download online. If you just put Iron Hook Scroll BJJ you'll find it and you can download the PDF. I have some videos on YouTube from when I first did the Iron Hook Scroll, then later I did the Cloud Scroll, which is more advanced over hook techniques. The armbar from the iron hook, I think I can say, virtually, that is the strongest armbar from the closed guard in terms of not getting socked while doing it and in terms of being able to finish uninterrupted. The cloud scroll are things that developed from people trying to defend the iron hook. Like you know how if you lean too far one way it gives you option in another way, it's that kind of thing, but I think that you'll like it. Keith Pallegro, a fan of the Iron Hook Scroll, Denny Prokopos, a fan of the Cloud Scroll. There's a lot of top tier dudes. Gumby from On the Mat Machine over at Gracie. A lot of other people have given me thumbs up for the stuff that's in there and I have to say, and we'll talk about this on another day, but every technique from the Iron Hook Scroll, was born from Transcendental Meditation. **Sonny:** Boom. **Adisa:** None of it came from my mind. **Sonny:** Boom. **Adisa:** That's God's truth. That's why I haven't written nothing on Jiu-Jitsu no more because it hasn't come to me. **Sonny:** That's right, we'll get into that on another one for sure. **Adisa:** Work. **Sonny:** 100%. Because this has been great, I'm going to go now play some chess. **Adisa:** Whoohoo, he's getting that chess groom in, I love it. **Sonny:** Play some chess, put some liquid swords on, maybe go for a run, do some katas. **Adisa:** That's right. Sonny: Get into it. **Adisa:** Word. Hit the swords, boy. **Sonny:** We'll do this again, Adisa. Thank you. **Adisa:** Yes, man. **Sonny:** Thank you so much. **Adisa:** Thank you so much. **Sonny:** I really appreciate your time. You take care. **Adisa:** Likewise. ## Adisa Banjoko Resources ### Links - [Adisa Banjoko Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/bishopchronicles/?hl=en "Adisa Banjoko Instagram") - [Adisa Banjoko LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/adisa-banjoko-07b978183 "Adisa Banjoko LinkedIn") - [Adisa Banjoko Twitter](https://twitter.com/adisathebishop "Adisa Banjoko Twitter") - [Adisa Banjoko YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBQ3dNLRCjrUQzApgAdTfnA "Adisa Banjoko YouTube") - [Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx: The Secrets of Hip-Hop Chess](https://www.amazon.com/Bobby-Bruce-Bronx-Secrets-Hip-Hop/dp/1533684081 "Bobby, Bruce & the Bronx: The Secrets of Hip-Hop Chess") - Bishop Chronicles Website - [Bishop Chronicles YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/bishopchronicles "Bishop Chronicles YouTube") ![Adisa Banjoko - Blending Hip-Hop Chess & Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/hhcf_tsbb_promo-1.jpg "hhcf_tsbb_promo-1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Heath Pedigo on Daisy Fresh Jiu-Jitsu & Pedigo Submission Fighting For the Future](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/) **Published:** July 15, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Heath Pedigo Submission Fighting](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/heath_pedigo_submission_fighting-1024x576.jpg "Heath Pedigo Submission Fighting › Sonny Brown") A Heath Pedigo interview, Founder of Pedigo Submission Fighting, aka Daisy Fresh. We discuss the culture and mindset used to build Daisy Fresh from Mt. Vernon to win the Pan Ams and the work ethic he looks to instil in his team and build camaraderie. Also, his thoughts on breaking down techniques from competition footage, and the evolution of training and teaching Jiu-Jitsu and the role [coaches](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching") play in the process and his belief that Jiu-Jitsu can be used as a vehicle for bettering people and saving lives. ### YouTube **Apple:** <https://apple.co/3wHcy2K> **Spotify:** <https://spoti.fi/3efAN1B> ## Key Topics ### Building the Daisy Fresh culture Heath explains how Pedigo Submission Fighting developed a hard-working team culture without relying on expensive facilities. The emphasis is on shared purpose, consistency and creating an environment people are willing to commit to. ### Competition as a team project The conversation looks at how a small team from Southern Illinois learned to compete with much larger organisations. Heath describes the sacrifices made by athletes and the importance of getting the whole room to believe in a long-term vision. ### Studying footage and evolving technique Heath discusses learning from competition footage, identifying what is working at the highest level and bringing those observations back into training rather than treating technique as a fixed syllabus. ### Jiu-Jitsu as a vehicle for changing lives A major theme is Heath’s belief that coaching is about more than producing competitors. He sees the gym as a place where structure, belonging and demanding work can give people a better direction. ## Key Takeaways - Strong culture can matter more than expensive facilities. - Small teams can compete with large organisations when the room shares a clear purpose. - Competition footage can be used as a practical feedback tool for coaches and athletes. - For Heath, the value of Jiu-Jitsu includes the lives changed through the training environment. ## Resources - [Pedigo Submission Fighting on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/pedigosubmissionfighting/) - [Pedigo Submission Fighting and Daisy Fresh videos on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Pedigo+Submission+Fighting+Daisy+Fresh) ## Heath Pedigo Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Hey, Heath how are you today mate? **Heath Pedigo:** Good brother. Thanks for having me on Sonny Brown Breakdown. I'm humbled. **Sonny:** I'm humbled. My pleasures. Pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to speak to me because Daisy Fresh Pedigo is really on the rise at the moment. Obviously, I'm sure everyone's now familiar with the *FloGrappling* series and what you guys have been doing on the competition scene over there. I just want to start off with just getting into the recent team victory you had at the Pan-Ams and just what was, I guess, a completion of a 22-year goal which is the martial arts dream. **Heath:** Originally the goal at first it was the Pan Ams. Obviously, 20 years ago that was the GI Pans. I just wanted to be able to compete with these major organizations. You have dreams like-- all of them basically. Checkmat, Towson, Gracie Barra. It's not anything that they're doing wrong specifically. No hate towards them. It's just some of these, there's 200, 300 schools and these guys are from different countries. They've never met each other and they combine their points together. For us, we have two, three small gyms in Southern Illinois to be able to compete with these mega organizations. It's just such a huge accomplishment for us. That's the thing I'm most proud of. Just to be able to show people you don't have to have anything fancy. I like to call it a duct tape gym. Like the Russian style. there's duct tape on everything. Everyone always says, "Man, I get these guys some mat." The funny thing is we don't even really think about that. We're just all happy to just be there doing what we love to do. I think people put so much emphasis on what's around them and what they don't have rather than just what they have. We're just all happy to be doing what we love. Fuck the mats and what the gym looks like, results, and how many lives you're saving. That's all that matters in the end anyway. Sorry, I got off. **Sonny:** That's all right. **Heath:** It was a huge thing to be able to win that. It's been a lifelong goal to win a major tournament and the goals don't stop there. Now we're going to the world and then winning the GI. We're still building as a team. We've only been a black belt for a few years so it's just really exciting. Like I said the boys' hard work and the dedication that the men and the women that train at the gym. They've given up a lot of things in their life, their families. Guys like Spatch came from Australia. He hasn't seen his family, especially with the COVID. He can't even come back right now. They've given up so much. They all believed in me and my vision and to get to pay them back so they could be a part of that it's in the legacy of jiu-jitsu forever. We can always look back on that and say, "Hey, we did this and we were able to win and not only compete with these major teams but beat them." It was a really incredible feeling. I'm really proud of that and really proud of the boys and the girls for, like I said, believing in the vision. **Sonny:** Getting people to believe in that vision is such a key component of coaching and leadership in general. You mentioned that obviously the mats where I'm sure people have probably reached out offering mats and such now. One thing I've considered is it's better to be in a place that's perhaps smaller with used mats than to be in a room full of people all there together than a gym with the latest new facilities that doesn't have many people there. **Heath:** Sure. **Sonny:** How do you consider that that plays into account when you've literally got people leaving their lives and moving to the other side of the world to come join in that environment? **Heath:** The ultimate goal is obviously we're going to get a bigger place. The Daisy Fresh episode, I don't know if you've seen that yet, it came out two days ago. **Sonny:** I haven't. **Heath:** There's something new that's really neat. The Midwest is a hard-working place. Like I said the people that are here they're just a little hard. There's a lot of poverty and they didn't really know how. It was like being in Australia and being over in the suburbs of Perth. The people are just a little harder. Pulling yourself up from your bootstraps, that doesn't always work for everybody. Some people just don't know how to do that. The ultimate goal was obviously to get a bigger gym because the bigger the facility we have the more people we can help. We actually have had a couple of people reach out about the mats but I've been trying to wait because like I said I'm really trying to get a new facility right now and I don't look at it more like soldiers and more students to make money. I just look at it like it's more and more lives that are being able to be saved. A bigger gym means more people. It's just simple. It's funny the people, they're from all over right now. We have about 20 people that are just sleeping in a parking lot right now. That are just coming to train from all over. They're all from places which is like maybe that they're-- No disrespect to anyone's team or their coaches, but maybe they're just not interested in competition or they don't see what it takes to be a champion in some of these mega-events. These blue belt kids, the juvenile blue belts, they're so good, man. Some of them are as good as the black belts were 10 years ago. Like I said, that's not a knock on any black belts. It's just the sport evolves and everyone's just so amazing and incredible and you have to stay out on everything to keep being able to compete. The ultimate goal is to get a bigger place. I'm actually going to keep the Daisy Fresh though. It's almost like a jiu-jitsu landmark now so I'm going to try to use that as the living barracks and then try to get a bigger open space. We're going to take over the high school wrestling program I think too. That'll be really nice so we can really crack into the local youth. If you Google, what is the most dangerous city in Illinois, Mount Vernon actually comes up. It's a small place. There's only about 14,000, 15,000 people here. In the Daisy Fresh when they're going by there's a thing called the corner tavern. It shows it on there. A guy got shot and killed two nights ago there. Like I said, it's just a rough place. People ask me all the time, "Why don't you go to California especially with the show now. You can go to Australia. Go anywhere. Open up a gym." I just feel this place, my roots are here and I feel it needs us. I want to pull as many people out as I can before we move along. People run out into the world looking for this or that when sometimes home is where it's at in the first place. I want to fix everything up there and then try to move on and get out into the world and help as many people as possible. **Sonny:** The benefits of the culture first attitude of really the goal being to help people before anything else can certainly be seen as, and as I was Googling to work out the time zone differences actually, one of the automated Google Search things is, how safe is Mount Vernon. It's certainly one of the dangerous places in America. **Heath:** Like I said, not to scare anyone if you have kids in Houston , "Hey Heath can I come with the kids" it would be 100% totally fine. It's just all in a small area. Essentially the neighborhood that I grew up in and went to school and, like I said, it's just poor. That's basically the way to put it. It's not that it's White or it's Black. It's just a poor area. When you're 14 and the guy down the road ask a kid to take this box down the road and he gives him $400 when he wants to work a job it's tough for these kids to work for $7 an hour and no one bust their ass. They see the easy way so young. It's easy to get caught up in that, and like I said to take in an easy way and that's where the respect is handed out in the streets. It's like the guys who are gang banging, then seeing them selling the dope and they have the fancy shit. It’s not the kid who left home, worked two jobs, and barely made it by the skin of his teeth, it's not what’s appreciated in our society. It’s just something that's got to change but that all goes into the gym culture too. Me thinking about that it's like I try to make sure that the youth see that jiu-jitsu is on the rise everywhere in every country and the guys not only are they making more money but they're getting a lot more just platforms to be seen on and it's really cool for them. These podcasts and stuff like this, sometimes it's all kids need. They just need somebody to love them. They're ready to be loyal to anything whether it be a gang or this or that, they're just looking for love. A lot of the kids that come in just have never belonged to anything. When they know and they feel that I truly believe and that the passion of what I'm showing, and what I'm doing they're just able to give that love right back but you have to be careful. It's important as a leader, or a coach or an instructor, a professor whatever, all these lives are in your hand so opening up a gym for some people it's just to be the king of their kingdom and then they like that. Everyone knows someone, everyone knows a gym that’s like that and you have to be careful not to fall into that trap. You got to remember you're in a position where people look up to you and 15 years down the road some of these kids are going to have their own gym so the things that they learn from you they're going to share with the world so it can spread out. When someone leaves, goes to California, opens up a gym, goes to Australia, they can take your attitude from the last 15 years with them. You spread that all over the world. I think it's important to make sure that the environment of your gym is good. You got to remember people are always watching. I think it's important. When people see that you're doing the right thing and they believe in you and they know that you believe in them, it's easy and that's just what we've built here. These guys, they're my friends. I had a guy tell me one time, "Don't make friends with the students." I've never looked at it like that. I've probably spent more time doing psychology for the guys or trying to anyway to help them out rather than jiu-jitsu stuff. The jiu-jitsu just becomes a part of their life and it's tough. When one of them leaves or something happens, it is like losing a best friend. It's just important to give back without expecting anything. I think that's the way to deal with that as a leader. If you're willing to give everything you have and you expect nothing in return, I think that it's a win-win. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. That idea of giving yourself to the service of others is an idea or a mindset that drives a lot of good working in helping people all around the world. Is that then something that you started off with or is that something that you've developed over time and was it a learning process? **Heath:** It’s always been like that. Before I went and got my belt in jiu-jitsu, and we had just done like a No-Gi grappling. My brother and I, we learned from VCR tapes in the grass, we trained and we would basically just take absolutely anyone who is willing to roll with. Then actually, we did Valley Judo stuff at the time so my brother would just basically just beat the shit out of us and head butt us. This is even pre-Elvis Sinosic submitting Jeremy Horn. This is even before that. See I know. I got- **Sonny:** I share that, I like it. **Heath:** Now, he was one of my favorites but we really didn't know anything and then we would save up money and we would buy these Japanese VCR tapes but they're all in Japanese. We would get them, and then I would just study them for hours. I still actually have all my original notebooks, I have about 200 of them. They're like upside-down graphs, even if someone opened them up, I don't even know if you'd be able to tell what it is but the first few years we just did that and we just tried to teach to anyone who would listen. When you're young you have those big dreams you want to be the UFC champion, everyone wants to be a world champion or whatever. I did some MMA fights and stuff, my brother did that but I never really like that. When he was done it was easy for me to be done with that too. I just really had a passion for just learning jiu-jitsu and helping other people learn it. In the beginning, I just wanted to make people better so I could have someone good to roll with. Then it just turned into being able to help people succeed and then we started doing local tournaments. Actually, I took a bus out for 30 hours into the North American Grappling Championships. At the time it was like, I'm not even sure if the Pan Ams had gotten-- I think it was the first year that it had gotten to the United States ‘98 or ’99. There were like 700 people at these little tournaments back then. It was outside of our town, we’d just never seen. The closest black belt was two hours and I actually got linked up with him later at Rodrigo Vaghi, that's where I got all my belts from. He's wonderful and he’s really an amazing man to let me do my own thing, he's always offered a helping hand and he's never asked me for anything actually so I’m forever grateful for him for that and just allowing people to grow. I restarted the gym in the GI as a blue belt in 2010, I think. It's just always been a process to hope others, even if it was for selfish reasons in the beginning I've just always wanted to help other people. My mom was a teacher for over 40 years, her and my dad just always gave back to the community that we lived in and she's a wonderful woman and maybe some of that just rubbed off. **Sonny:** Yes. I think for sure, actually. Both my parents are teachers also so I can relate in that regard and respect to the shout-out for Elvis Sinosic. My coach was coaching Elvis at the time and was in his corner over Jeremy Horn. One thing I do want to bring up that you mentioned there is the fascination with the Shooto fighting and Shooto wrestling and I've heard you were even watching the Japanese combat wrestling which I've gone down a couple of YouTube rabbit holes on that. It's a very interesting rule set, different [points going system](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-benefits-gi-ibjjf-points/), they’re wearing shoes, leg locks or fair game. I actually think that it's more similar to how the modern No-Gi game looks than perhaps jiu-jitsu did at the time and it's headed more towards that. Is that something that you've kept that fascination in with that side like that Japanese Shooto side or? **Heath:** I believe that the Japanese were the first complete estimation athletes or like Valley Judo practitioners, they are such good wrestlers, they all had good striking, all those little 155 pound guys like Rumina Sato and Hayato Sakurai, all those names like Genki Sudo, they were really complete wrestlers and they had amazing striking. They were like the first wrestlers and strikers. They were jiu-jitsu black belts they could leg locks so for me I was like, "Man, they're the most complete fighters." That's always who I wanted to try to evolve the game towards learning plus their fans are just so complete when it comes to understanding submissions. Their culture, I just always really enjoyed it and I think that they understood the passion for the submission in a fight and stuff like that a little bit more than everybody else. I really love that, just that Japanese style of-- That's why it's a submission fighting actually because of those old Shooto wrestling matches. You can look those up like I said Rumina Sato is ankle picking the guys and heel hooking them. Actually the footage of Genki Sudo that's on the internet at the west side, that's actually my camera. **Sonny:** Oh, I’ve watched it about a thousand times at Chris Brennans place. **Heath:** That’s actually my footage. Scott Profeta, a friend of mine and that was from California, he used my camera, we recorded that and we were out there. I was just traveling around the world, I was like 16 or 17 just trying to get all over the world and then I'm not sure how he got a hold of that but it got on there so it's actually Scott Profeta he was the one recording. Like I said, a good guy. Him and I loved those guys, I still think we caught up to them in a way. With jiu-jitsu, Brazil obviously has had the most influence on jiu-jitsu. That goes without saying I don't think there's anyone in the world that thinks any different than that because certain people have put, like with us, listen, no one from our gym gives a shit about calling it American jiu-jitsu. Man, no one cares about that dude. Spatch is from Australia, George is from Nicaragua, Alejandro is Uruguayan. His parents-- nobody cares, man. We just want to be the best in jiu-jitsu and in general, and no one wants to take anything away from, especially, Brazilians. You know what I mean? It's not like that at all. I think people look sometimes for a rouge because you're competing and it keeps things exciting, but at the end of the day, there's no hate at all at our gym for anybody who manage it, anyone who's sharing the dream and the art, that's all we really care about and it doesn't mean anything. I think we evolved and caught up to the Japanese guys when it comes to the leg lock systems. I know you guys over there, you guys just have two of the best leg lockers in the world, arguably one of the best leg lockers in the world. I just think a lot of it from a lot of Japanese influenced and I was really lucky that I just stumbled on those. There's just something about them and it was really drawing to me. I was like 13 or 14, but it was a long time ago, 23 years ago, I bought my first tape. I actually still have that full VCR collection that I have, a whole trash bag full of them, I still have all those tapes. I actually go back and watch some of them some time, and some of the best stuff just still applies. Today, there is an old Imanari heel hook video, man. This guy has been ahead of the game for years on the grips and all this stuff. They're just really incredible, man. It just evolved so much, man. We're lucky to be a part of it. **Sonny:** For sure. Speaking of that evolution there, obviously is it seems to be a bit of a cultural change going on now that, of course, you are a part of now in a big way building up dominant teams in America and also changing how things have been taught in a way in terms of-- nowadays, it's far more team-orientated with you guys than perhaps everything being based around the sole source of information being from the instructor. How have you seen that develop over time and where do you see that going? **Heath:** I think everything always started-- I think there were the instructors that came to America, and I think that their rules, their word, that was just a rule and the way things were, you know what I mean? Whoever had taught them, that's just the way things were. If the instructor was good at cross-collar chokes, all the students would be good at cross-collar chokes. Now, you can go into a gym and it's like the instructor can be a guard passing machine and have no bottom. He can have 10 students that are the Cicero Costha kids that are bare on bowling. With all the things that we have available to us now like YouTube channels and the BJJ Fanatics videos or podcast, I just-- It's 2021, I don't really think that there's not really a reason for too many people to be behind. If they're truly passionately, their life is jiu-jitsu, but that being said, I think it's just important. Like I said, as an instructor and a leader, you don't have to be a black belt to be a leader, a white belt could open up a gym and he could create killing machines that were amazing. There's more to it than that. You have to make sure these are good people and they're going to give back to life. It really doesn't matter to some people but for me, that's important. I just think there's a big hierarchy in jiu-jitsu, and I think that that has a lot to do for a long time. It kept the jiu-jitsu from evolving, and I think that that's gone now. I got guys like Gordon Ryan, and Craig, not only have they cracked into the scene, these are arguably not just the best grapplers currently, but these guys could be some of the best grapplers ever to have ever lived in the arena. They're always going to be remembered no matter what because right now-- The UFC was huge. I think UFC 40 or 41 when Ken Shamrock fought Tito Ortiz, that was the big change. The Fertitta brothers came in and they purchased it, and I think that was the big thing that-- There was a little bit more WWF, WWE-type marketing, now, hell, there's one of these things every weekend. Like you said, back in the day, when Elvis fought, there was a UFC once every three months and there were six fights, and the guys were making $5,000 when they had several fights. I just think the world constantly evolves and sports evolve, and it goes back to like you said, the instructing thing, I think it's important that you just don't get caught in that, "My way is the only way." I have students that constantly showing me new things or bring things to the table. I think it's just incredibly important to have that open mind in your gym, and I think it breeds that a lot more of a team. Every situation needs a leader no matter what, even if it's a one-person show, there has to be a leader. I think when you have that open-door policy, I think it's incredibly important to cross-train too. I could care less where the guys from the gym go and train, it doesn't matter to me at all. If they would want to leave the team and go somewhere else, then I wish them the best of luck. I think a lot of instructors have a little bit insecurity and they try to lockdown. They use different excuses to sell that to the students, and it goes back to their king of the kingdom type thing. I don't know. I just think you have to have to keep an open mind and never stop learning, never stop being a student, and breaking things down, Sonny Brown style, it's incredibly important, man. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] That's actually something I wanted to touch on is I have heard you say that you do prefer breaking down competition footage to analyze techniques over instructionals, which is obviously there's still a lot of value in instructionals but it's something that I've always been interested in because it's really-- they're showing the techniques that are 100% work in competition bring it on display. It's also something that when I was doing it, some people would tell me "You can do that but you're not going to really-- there's still the secret stuff that you're not going to be able to tell from just looking at the footage." What's been your experiences with that? **Heath:** I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. You could show me five times something and then your friend could show me, and the time that he shows me, that might be the time that I get it, and then you're like, "Shit, I showed you that five years ago." You know how it is with just learning curves and stuff like that, but as for the video itself, I watch instructionals now because I think they're neat, I think it's important to-- Especially if the guys are going to go up against-- If Andrew was going to go against Sonny Brown, Andrew Wiltse, I would watch your instructionals because I know it's your opportunity to make money, you're going to show what you're good at and what you can do. I would watch your instructional just so I could see the small things in your setups, the grips that you're going to grab, where you're going to grab, where your feet are, how they're positioned, all that stuff. That's more why would you use an instructional. The actual competition footage, you nailed it when you said it. This is what they're doing, this is how they're winning, and this is why they are who they are because of competition, not because of what they're showing inside that gym. I think breaking that down, and I'm like the old school like pause, back up, pause, back up, pause, back up. The grip is one of the most important things like the Gi such a small adjustment on a grip can be the difference between so many different things. There's so many small things like that, I just think you have to take the time to really dig in and you want to learn rather than just say, "Hey, man, I'm just going to watch the footage." Like I said, I think you have to really dig in and to break this stuff down. I think you also need goals with what you're breaking down, am I breaking it down just so I know Sonny's game, or am I breaking it down so I can give Sonny a beating? Am I breaking it down because I want to get his knowledge and be good at what he's good at? I think having an end goal with what you're doing is very important too, and the book doesn't stay wide open like that, it's like there's an end game for exactly why you're doing it. I try to write it all out in my mind first and then break it down and say, "Okay, here it is, this is what we're going to do with it now." No one really has any excuses any more, man, you can get on *Flo* and you can literally watch anybody's matches, not just in YouTube in general, there can be a small-- I watched a small jiu-jitsu tournament from Australia a couple of years back with Spatchy and there were 80 people there but break that all down just the same. You find an instructor if you are going to go against a guy say a blue belt or purple belt. You're going to go against a guy and you've looked up the names like everybody does. You get on there and say, "Okay, man I'm hoping I don't have this guy the first round," and then you can't find anything. Then you looked on Facebook, you looked on Instagram. One of the things that you can do is you can find the people that train with them and then you can start to notice visibly the similarities that the people have. Like I said, grabbing, pulling guard, taking down, resting even like breaking points. You can see in Jiu-Jitsu players when they really break, man. A lot of the teams, man believe it or not they all break and gas out on that same level. I just think there's a whole lot, and I think it's extremely underappreciated and underestimated thing that lot of coaches don't do. Part of the reason is, what are you going to get for it? It's your time, it's time with your kids. As an instructor, I do look at it as work. The whole, if you love your job it's never work, that's bullshit I think because it is work. I look at it like this, there's a factory in our town, it employs about a third of our 15,000 residents, about 5000 people work there. These guys put in 10 hours a day, they bust their ass, man. I have a lot of these guys at the gym. I don't think it's fair for me to run the jiu-jitsu gym and not be putting in the same amount of work as them. Instead of saying, "Yes, I'm a coach and I coach for two hours in the morning and two at night." What about the other six hours? We're lucky, we can go and pick the kids up from school and we can spend time with your girl and that stuff but those extra hours I think it's extremely important to not get lost and then get lazy and I use that time. Just think about those guys that are working, and always trying to compare yourself to that, and ask yourself are you putting in the extra time to build and learn. It's important not to waste it, time is the most valuable thing of all. I always try to look at it like that, make sure that I'm always using all of it as much as I can and not having to work a lot, not using it as a tap-out. You know what I mean? Something to that as a beneficial, I'm not saying other people don't do it but I just think a lot more people could probably do that and benefit from it. **Sonny:** That's a really solid way of taking maybe a blue-collar work ethic and then applying it to the coaching profession which is obviously what you've done and what you're doing successfully. I think part of that work ethic is that what you've built in the gym is the ability to, it seems like anyway as I'm watching it, is push people to their breaking points and everyone going at hard rounds all the time in the gym. One thing I wanted to bring up which I heard you mention, how it relates to culture as well is I heard you say that when a new white belt comes into the gym and maybe their energy is maybe a bit frantic or that they're a bit wild, you don't try and curtail that or slow them down. You try and keep that fire inside them and mold that which is a bit in terms if culture, it would be maybe counterintuitive or maybe not so common because part of the culture that I see more often is, "No, make sure all the white belts are able to roll as safe as possible, try and calm them down," but it seems like you take the opposite approach. **Heath:** Within reason of course. It's like I said that on the show your real thing and then I actually don't look at any internet stuff at all so I don't have any idea so if someone said, "Fuck his mama," I would only know that if boys showed me. I'm extremely lucky, I don't care. That being said, within reason. Obviously, if some fucking nut comes in and he's slamming people down, you're to going tell him not to do that, but I think it's important to control their elbows and knees of course, so they don't bust everybody's heads open. Obviously but why take that fire away from somebody because they want to go hard? I have several masters guys, we have a 70-year-old guy, not everybody at the gym is-- we train hard, you know what I mean, it's hard. It's 100 degrees in there right now but there are groups in our gym where the guys, they have to work on Monday, they're not interested in winning the world. It's not just a team of people who are going to rip each other's heads off. We actually have an incredible, incredibly high non-injury rate. You would think that the guys get hurt all the time. Sometimes people get hurt because they're like holding back or they are trying not to. It's like when you go into a match and say, " I can't get leg locked." That's all you've thought about for a week is your opponent being a leg locker. Then the first thing that happens is you get leg locked because that's all you thought about instead of going out and enjoying your game and smashing the person the way that you do, you fell into that trap of basically them being inside your head. I think in that manner, I let the guys bang when the new white belts come in. I don't always put them with the other white belts until they are ready I put them over with the guys and let them go hard. You almost got to break them that's how I look at it. You can see in the first couple of weeks how tough somebody's going to be and he's just a competition guy. Everyone who comes in now, of course, with the show and *Flo*, they want to be a world champion. It's like, "Hey, Sonny, man, what's your goal, and you say I want to be a world champion." I already probably knew that, if you moved halfway across the world to live in the parking lot, obviously you want to be a world champion but what else? The other stuff is just as important. I do think it's important to not take that away and just guide them towards being able to push the pace and [learning the techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) and the way the guys drill in the gym they drill hard. Some of them do, like George Valadares. He's the one who does all the YouTube stuff for anyone who's seen that? He usually just started doing that stuff three months ago I don't know if you've got a chance to watch any of it but- **Sonny:** I have. **Heath:** - he's amazing, man. He picked up a book for dummies and Alejandro's brother works in Hollywood and gave him some advice and man, he's just incredible. He's so amazing and we're so lucky to have him to get to share all that. The information and what's going on with just everybody in the world. George and Thatcher, sometimes they'll spend 10 or 12 hours a day, not everybody has the availability to be able to do that. Sometimes guys got to get it in when they come in. I think it counters a lot of stuff we say think a lot of stuff we say. I think a lot of instructors might tell people to slow down because maybe they don't go with that rate. It's one thing if like I said the guys-- It's your job to control the room as the leader. When people say that's when I say, "Hey a new white belt comes in," there's not seven white belts out there throwing each other down. It's not like that. You know how it is. Anybody who's making these comments most probably isn't a black belt. They probably never ran a gym. I think you got to put them in. I think you got to see what they are made of, how hard they're going to be able to push, if they're going to come back. Once they're broken and then you knock them down, you got to build them back up. I think immediately stripping them of their physical attributes the second they came in, I don't really agree with that. Technically, things are important obviously but-- Listen, at a certain level everyone's amazing, man. At the adult Purple Belt worlds. These guys are fucking incredible, man. They're so good, the guys who lose in the first round now could have been the champion. Something for everybody out there to always remember nothing that means anything comes easily. 50% of people at every single tournament lose the first round. Let's always remember that. Half of everyone loses their first match that signs up. If 2000 people sign up a 1000 people will lose their first match so that's half of everyone, no matter what, every time. I think it's important not to get down about losses. I think you learn that from the beginning, from the instructor when that's stripped away from you and they're saying, "Hey, this is my way, this is the way that you're going to do it. You're going too hard or you want to slow these guys down." Listen, you can talk all this shit you want but I'm on the show right now because we just won the biggest No-Gi team tournament title in the last two years probably because of COVID but it was the biggest one. We showed up. I just think that there's something to be said to not strip everything away from something. If a kid comes in, he's had a rough life and goes hard, I try to build off of that. Like I said, of course, you have to make things safe. That shit goes without being said. It's like someone saying, "Oh, love my kids they come first." No shit, you don't have to say that, that goes without saying. Of course, I make it safe but I just don't think it's unnecessary to, like I said, strip all the attributes and I'll say now jiu-jitsu is for the meek and the little guys. I don't even know who said that in the first place but size does matter. Everybody's got a little animalistic instinct, everybody's a little wild and to compete and win I think for a lot of people it has a lot to do with it when you get out there and you're both the same technically being mean and being tough it does go a long way sometimes. Watching a college wrestling match, these guys are tough. They're banging on each other and if you've ever wrestled in college you'd see the rooms are brutal. These jiu-jitsu guys that are commenting on how rough things are, they'd pass out if they saw college wrestling these guys are basically fighting and they're slapping each other's heads and getting it in. Like those guys that are Australian top team you guys got. Those guys are all buff, man there's 50 Guys that look like supermodels in there. I'm sure when they're training they're banging over there. If you want to do it as a hobby than a self-defense thing then that's cool. I don't look down on anybody who supports jiu-jitsu and I don't think you have to compete, to give back or be a part of it or be amazing. For the ones that do it, you got to let them do what they do, and if you don't like rowing hard go with the new guys because you're afraid that you're going to get tapped on in front of everybody there's a corner, a gym down the road then you can go to and that's just how I've always looked at it. Every day I show up I get my guard passed by white belts, maybe it's because I suck. **Spatchy:** I try it's tough, actually. \[laughs\] **Heath:** Again, there's nothing to lose every time we step in there as humans for a couple of hours a day you get to leave everything like the wife and the kids and the stress of work and you get to leave that behind for a couple of hours. I think it's important not to limit yourself when you have that opportunity for that time. That's why it's important to me. I don't try to take anybody down, I try to build them from what they have. Their backgrounds come into play on that. A lot of these kids that I have winning now I feel like if I would have stripped them down and had them doing things technically which-- We actually do a lot of technical stuff. You can watch Andrew Wilson any of his passing DVDs and you can see the guy's a technical genius. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, use it as an excuse, and once you put the black belt on, like I said, it's important to remember other people aren't there yet, so if you've checked out the physical part, that's okay but don't hold anybody else back because you've checked out yourself. I don't even think that an instructor has the role to be effective-- You could be in a sweatsuit with a whistle. More than half of these guys they're old, they can't get on the mats like Mike Tyson's boxing coach couldn't beat him up in boxing, but he can show him everything. I could care less about people who do and don't roll with their guys I don't think that means they're a pussy or anything like that. I just think it's important though to not strip away their natural, hunger and like I said animalistic instinct. I don't even know if that's a word but it sounds cool so- **Sonny:** It does sound cool. \[laughs\] **Heath:** I just think it's a little bit of like barbarian and all of that shit. Everybody's got a little bit of savage in them. I think that's-- One of the reasons I think people love the Daisy Fresh thing is because it's a little rough, man and everyone can relate. A big named guy who's won the world, he might not be approachable, man and it's like when you see Jacob Couch or Alejandro, or any of these boys from the show. It's Spatch, Georgie, they're approachable. When you see them and you think, "Holy shit, these guys did this I can do this too, they're just like me." I think that alone makes the show incredible and I think that's why everybody loves it. It's unapologetic. One of the other funny things to me is people love telling stories about their instructors doing fights in the 90s and the old Valley judo, [jiu-jitsu was built off violence and for that generation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-brennan-next-generation-mma-nogi-jiujitsu/). It's funny because the way that we train or the way Gracies came over when they did these Gracies in action and they were going hard and it's funny that everyone loves to tell that story at the dinner table, but when it comes to us doing that we're playing the cards we were dealt instead of crying around about it, we just built something from nothing. It's just funny I think it's the pot calling the kettle black, a little bit. Like I said, at this point, it doesn't even matter, man. The 2020 No-Gi Pans, we got second, and all the other stuff that we had won as a team was-- We won the novice pans, novice worlds, and then we won at Chicago, which was a huge deal to us but once you get up on a major, it's like maybe it was an accident and then the following year winning that's like, "Okay, man, obviously these guys are doing something. We're still such a little group. I don't remember how many people we signed up. I think we had 15 people maybe signed up for the No-Gi Pans or something like that for those adult points and I think only one or two guys didn't medal. Our system is a bullshit word but it's the way we do things I can't tell you that it's the right way or the wrong way but it's just the way we do them it seems to be working. Especially in other countries like Europe, Australia, all these places. I know those are continents and not countries but there's now black belts everywhere and you don't need that to be successful, you can build something and be a part of the revolution. I consider myself an activist in the jiu-jitsu revolution. The best way to support a revolution is to build your own. Start your own and I think that you can do that. If a question is how can I do this, how can I start up a gym on my own and in a town 100 miles from Perth there's, going to be no one around out there. You can do it though, if you believe in your product you truly believe in what you're giving away, people will believe in you. If you support them with everything you have, they'll support you and I think that's the way that everything that's special is built. Carlson Gracie, he's passed away he's been gone for years and people still-- They wear the shirts, we fight for Carlson. They loved this guy. He was a god in the favela, he was a god in the rich community. Everyone just loved him because all these guys lived with him, he just constantly gave back and they're still fighting for the guy 15 years later and I think that anyone can build that man, even on a small scale I think that you can build something amazing. If you can't do huge, giant big things in life that change the world, do a lot of small ones. I think Napoleon Hill had a quote like that, his was way better though you'll you have to look it up but anyway it's- **Sonny:** I like it. I think from then, what you were saying with the black belts and the fight is really you obviously take care of the safety set side of things but when you say you don't want to take the fire out of them. You're not talking about frenetic movement, you're talking about more, the fire of belief and passion that they have in themselves, you don't want to ever temper that down, or put any doubt in their mind and build that belief in them because there is an understanding that, sometimes, the power of belief can overcome technique, right? **Heath:** I just should have said that, what you just said. I wish I said that. Now that was way better than what I said. No doubt for sure. **Sonny:** Sorry I was going to say, but I look at what's going on over there and I look at it and I think, man, you guys are the ones you're doing it. You guys are still doing it. It does have that vibe of wow, these guys are out there just going for it, and you do have that belief built in the culture there. **Heath:** Like I said going back to that culture thing I just think it all starts from the top you can go into a gym basketball team-- What's that sport you guys made up? **Spatchy:** AFL. **Heath:** AFL. You can go into an AFL team. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] **Heath:** You guys made it up so you give it the best. **Spatchy:** One of the hardest sports in the world. **Heath:** Oh, anyway- **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] **Heath:** -just kidding there. No, I'm just saying you can go into a jiu-jitsu gym and you can almost feel like-- I think the leader kind of, he sets the tone a little bit, and you can tell him if this guy's an asshole. Sometimes the guys are going to be assholes. People will get-- That was a big thing a few years ago. It's chilled out a lot now because now people blast your ass on the internet. Now, if you're a jerk to your students, or you treat people like shit, that kind of behavior was something that people could do before and get away with. I just think it always kind of starts-- You got to build the foundation and the leader, he's the most important part of the foundation. Like I said, if the guys I asked, sometimes the people will be asked if they're coming to you then the rest of them will be contagious to it. But if you're amazing and you're constantly trying to build everyone around you, it should be successful. It's like the iron sharpens iron type of thing. I just think that people can feel that. I think when they come into the gym, I have no idea about any other gyms because I'm only at our gym, but anyone who's associated with us and in our place, it's important to me that you have to build yourself. You can't get confused about putting other people before you, because you have to be selfish a little bit to-- Sonny has to take care of Sonny, to be a better father, and a husband, or a boyfriend, a teammate. If Sonny isn't happy with himself, he can't give the things that he needs to other people. I think it's important that you have your own mind right, then you're able to give back. Second, I think that's really important to build off of, but you can always just fill it, man in the culture of a GM's in Jiu-Jitsu. I'm really proud of our guys because it's no one-- You've never got to see Sonny, but hopefully one day we'll get over it. No one from our team competes without at least 10 people on the barricades. It doesn't matter if they're white belts or black belts, or if they're not allowed to be down there'll be in the stands, they're just so supportive of the guys. When they lose, the team takes a major loss, you know what I mean? But as Spatch actually said in the Daisy Fresh one or two, it's one of my favorite quotes, he said, "Andrew, just one, what difference does it make? What happened with everyone else?" He won and he got his black belt and that was a moment for us as a team that was just amazing enough. Later on, people said, "Oh, Wiltse is the only one that wins from the team." That's been settled now though that is what it is, but I just think it's when you really believe in everyone around you and you truly wish success for them, I think that you just can't get and be let down man. If you're constantly giving and making every round, you're sharp, it's just going to sharpen you up and not, not holding anything back. When you build that culture, people feel more-- They feel obligated to keep themselves sharp, I think. They're able to talk about mental illness a little bit more, and be open and share that stuff because they truly trust these people. It's not just about jiu-jitsu. If it is just about jiu-jitsu to you, then you probably have a huge gym, and a nice car, and great things, but I don't actually have any of that stuff, that's a choice though, the platform that *Flo*'s given us could have 500 students move to the city. Like I said, fuck a million dollars when you can leave a legacy. It's about being able to change lives and help people. You never know how much time you got, you can wake up tomorrow and they tell you, "Hey, you got the stage four cancer, that's that, you've got 30 days." It's important that every day that you build something that'll keep going when you're gone. Just to know that you're a part of something that's bigger than you. I think all that's an incredibly important when you create that culture in your gym. There's so much more than winning in jiu-jitsu when it comes to that. I think when everyone starts to do that, that's when you're really going to see a change in the evolution of jiu-jitsu. I think when teams aren't about just one person, one great person and everyone's just giving and everyone thinks that they do this. It's hard to look in the mirror and believe that you're not that type of person, everyone thinks that. When that culture it's built, you can really do incredible thing. It's like possessing superhuman powers to help other people. When you walk into the room and you feel uplifted so much that you can-- You just feel amazing. It just spreads, it's like cancer, negative things spread and positive things spread. I just think it's really important to keep that mindset when you're building your culture, or if you want to change it, you know what I mean? Everyone's welcome to do what they want. These are the things that I've done, it's the only way I've ever known how to do things. I've had a lot of success, a lot of failure on the way too. **Sonny:** Yes. You touched on the idea of taking care of yourself first is, and I think of the airplane, if the oxygen masks drop down, you always got to put the oxygen mask on for yourself first before you can help other people. Then from the sounds of that, it's like you build that belief in yourself first, then look to instill it into people's their own belief in themselves around you, and then creates a kind of feedback or self perpetual thing that you're looking to build that will last for a long time and spread out. Is that kind of? **Heath:** Exactly. I'm actually going to steal the airplane thing and pretend that you didn't say that, and that I said that. **Sonny:** Go for it. \[laughs\]. \[crosstalk\] Sure, I got it somewhere else as well. **Heath:** That's exactly it though. Everybody kind of gets-- They get lost in wanting to help other people and people like to tell people that they're helping other people, or I always put everyone before myself. People brag about that and kind of get, but at the end of the day, it's important that you're healthy and mentally, because like I said, at a certain point, you might do that now but what about in two years? Things are a lot more important than today and tomorrow, you got to think about the future and it's just so important to work on yourself to get to where you can help everyone else. If you can combine those two things, be healthy, be able to help everyone, and expect nothing back. It's funny, you get the most when you expect the least. It's like when you're chasing after a significant other, and they're just kind of not interested in, then you're like, ugh, fuck it, then the next thing, not only a hurry, you got four more call on you too, you know what I mean? It's like when you stop chasing and you just start living. I think that's just the way to create the culture, I think it's a really positive one. I'm really proud of ours too. When people come and visit, they always say like, "Hey, the gym's just like on the show and everybody's so tough, and everyone's so helpful and everyone's so cool." I know it's a little intimidating to come in and we have so many visitors sending people from other countries. The one that's really gotten me lately is people are stopping by in the nighttime and they're taking pictures with the sign, but they don't come in and train. Then like I said, we're really lucky, we're at a crossroads, two main interstates cross in our town. Everything's so cheap here, you can rent a house here for $600. **Sonny:** That sounds better than Sydney. You're tempting me to \[laughs\]. **Heath:** Listen in. **Sonny:** Make a challenge. **Heath:** \[crosstalk\] If you can ever come over, if you ever get to where you can come over, you come over and do a little thing on the gym, you stay with us. It'll be great. But yes, that's part of the reason, like I said earlier, why I like being from a small place. It gives me the availability to help more people. It's a little cheaper and we gotta do it the hard way. Sometimes we got to put 15 people in a suburban that holds only eight people and drive down. Things are getting better, we're just able to get a van and people ask, "Do we get anything from the *Flo* series?" It's a two-part answer, but we don't get any money from them directly. However, they gave us the platform to share our story and that is worth everything. We're forever grateful to them and Michael Sears and Simone Khan, who does the show, just to keep believing in the boys and keep sharing the story. I just think it's touched so many people, we've gotten literally thousands of messages about just positive messages. The only negative message we get is "Fuck American jiu-jitsu," which we collect those and we're going to make a video on those, it's going to be fun, but \[laughs\] it's really funny too, because like I said, we don't even give a shit about that, but- **Spatchy:** I get the most messages about it. **Heath:** Yes, actually Spatch gets the most messages about him, he's Australian. It's like indirectly, they go to him and that-- We're going to make a cross out American and part Australian jiu-jitsu, we're going to make that a shirt actually. I think that I've actually never made a shirt before, ever. People always ask about apparel and merchandise. Will you kids call it Merch? **Spatchy:** Yes. **Sonny:** Yes, Merch. We're actually working on a first shirt right now. Like that, but we've never had one actually. If there's any out there, like someone else has made them or something like that. It's really humbling to have all the people, especially from the other countries and I keep saying that, but I just feel like in parts of Australia, Europe and I think a lot of these places, a lot of the South American countries, I think they're where I was 20 years ago. It's like you're limited and sometimes you just can't get over to the black belts or maybe you're not in the position with family or whatever it is. I don't know. I mean, fuck, you guys did the same thing. You're a black belt and you made this happen. Peter-- What's the Peter guy's name over there? He's like the godfather, Peter Deben? **Sonny:** Peter Deben. **Heath:** He's probably the first black belt over that way. Right? \[crosstalk\]- **Spatchy:** John Will. **Sonny:** There's, yes, John Will, they said the dirty dozen but there's a-- **Heath:** Yes. You know what I mean? That's even a new Romina. Are there 100 black belts in Australia? **Sonny:** I'd say so, yes. I'm just guessing. **Heath:** You know what, 10 years ago, I think in America, that's when it just first started coming. If you were a purple belt back in the day you were like a super bad-ass. If you were an American dude you had one of those, it's like you knew somebody. You know what I mean? It's growing in all the places and I just love to be able to talk with people and help them like I said, these small gyms and these garage gyms and some people have been paying these giant association fees and business is businesses. It is what it is. It's just so nice to be able to feel like you're helping people and get those messages and then say that you made them get back into Jiu-jitsu or whatever it may be, it's really amazing and it's because guys like you that have these shows, when you share everything with everybody, so that's incredibly important. **Sonny:** Thank you. I'm sure the merch will be a big seller. No doubt. I think it will be that you could bring people wearing a Daisy Fresh shirt and at other gyms and there'll be asking them, why are you wearing that Daisy Fresh shirt guys? **Heath:** I've really tried out. I see them sometimes when, like I said, I just think it's a relatable thing. I think everyone kind of relates to it in a way that, man, these guys are approachable. They're just normal hardworking dudes from wherever, and anyone can do it and that's what's Jiu-jitsu is supposed to be about anyway. It's not supposed to be about hierarchy or it's not supposed to be about one certain set or group of people being the best or monopolizing anything. That's why like I said, the Jiu-jitsu revolution is important to make everyone see and understand that anyone can do anything and that everyone has that capability just with passionate love and teamwork, you can build anything. I think, like I said, that's what that revolution is about. **Sonny:** Like a big part that I'm really picking up in that revolution that you're mentioning is certainly that team aspect. Even when you mentioned how like college wrestling coaches are on the sideline with the tracksuit and the whistle, which is heresy in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and perhaps there's good benefits to that or there's reasons in that. It keeps the art not being falsified or, but now it is at the stage where that could certainly be part of the next revolution, where you have that team atmosphere, you have specialist coaches, perhaps. You have that kind of a model that's used in other sports. Is that part of what you're heading towards? **Heath:** I think it's important-- Let me share, I think it's important for someone who has-- Maybe we'll get to the point when someone who's like never done Jiu-jitsu would be able to teach Jiu-jitsu. Maybe, I don't know, probably not in my lifetime, but when I say that, I just mean, you get a guy that's in his late thirties, late forties, people don't realize some of these-- I've been training for almost 30 years already. You know what I mean? It just takes toll on you after a while and I get into a group with Andrew Gotzis and his brother and George and Jacob Coach and I mean, at the end of that, about that time next month, I'd be ready to go again physically. What I mean by being over the coach on the side is, obviously-- I'm just thinking, I don't think you have to be out there rolling every single time to get that respect from the guys. I think that if you're able to build something with them-- like my guys could tap me all the time and they wouldn't lose any respect for me because they could tap me out. I mean, that doesn't mean shit. I've actually never even thought, it's never even crossed my mind that they would think any less of a-- There's times that I busted my knee open a couple of months ago. I wasn't able to train for two months and I got big and fat one time. I never felt like the guys had any less respect because I wasn't training because I'm still there. I'm grinding it out with them. I'm sleeping on the match with these guys and what you know doesn't go away. You know what I mean? I think as long as your team isn't getting watered down and-- With our belts that we give out, we've kept it pretty simple. I have the guys when they pans the worlds and they get the next belt. Some people obviously can't do that. There's hobbyist and some people say, "Hey, man. That's sandbagging." Anyone who says that probably doesn't compete or hasn't competed in real competitions. When the guys lose, it's not a big deal, but when their guys lose, oh man, this guy's been sandbagged. I don't think anyone would accuse us of watering anything down. I think it's important to just be connected with the students and that's what I mean by that. If you have that respect and you're able to do that off to the side and they'll let you-- Go in any, like I said, any Division One wrestling, most of these guys are 50, 60 years old. I mean, they're not turned out, they're wrestling with the guys. I mean, does that make them a shitty instructor? You know what I mean? I think that things will evolve into that, especially as us guys that are black belts, are the leaders now get a little bit older because it's like Andrew. There's things that Andrew could show you that I couldn't. I show him a move and I show him the entire passing system. He shows me back the entire passing system plus everything that he's done to it just from me showing it to him. I think that him and Gordon and these guys, I think that they are very special mentally, the way that they see things and break things down. I think that their brains just work a little bit different than mine anyway. He's not interested in really teaching. He's still competing actively and he's doing the instructionals and seminars and stuff, but he's not really ready to take those reigns as the coach. I just think there are captains on the team that you have to have and know these guys got your back. Like I said, as long as you have the respect from the students, there's a big difference between respect and like, dominative like I said, the king of the kingdom. Some of these guys, they haven't rolled with the students in 10 years, and then they get mad when the students leave and they show shit, and then-- Results are all the matter in the end anyway. Right? If a team's pumping out constant champions, I mean, who am I to be judgmental towards their system? I would actually want to know everything about it. I think that's a big difference between winners and people that don't win, is they have an open mind to that. Is there any really set way to do anything in life in sports? You have all these coaches-- I read every sporting thing that I can, and I'm really big to dig in into other sports. Not any Australian football stuff. I've never read any of this stuff. Is there a coach stash? **Spatchy:** From where? **Heath:** Australian football? **Spatchy:** Like a famous coach ? **Heath:** Yes. **Spatchy:** There's a couple of decent ones but not like \[crosstalk\]- **Heath:** You don't know nothing. **Sonny:** Ron Barassi. **Heath:** Ron Barassi? **Spatchy:** Hes good as... **Heath:** The American guys think you said Ronda Rousey, but anyway-- **Spatchy:** \[laughs\]. **Heath:** I'm just kidding. **Spatchy:** Shes a badass bitch. **Heath:** Anyway, I just think things are constantly evolving, man. I think when you put your time in and you get the respect and the students trust you, that's why it's so important not to be a piece of shit and take advantage of your situation. I do think that time's coming though. Like I said, the older the guys get, these young guys want to keep competing. We have a pretty young team, and guys that'll be getting black belts here real soon and they're definitely not ready to open up anytime soon. You know what? I'm slowing down, man. I'm getting old and you know how it goes, getting out there and mixing it up every time. I just don't think that that's as important as everyone thinks it is, just you can't use it. There's a fine line. You can't use it as an excuse to not train and not get it in and I don't know. You get it. **Sonny:** Yes. It is that fine line that you mentioned of being able to keep it real and just the reality of eventually, the young guys are going to overtake you and that actually should be the goal of a good coach, it's you want people to get better than you. **Heath:** In martial arts in general, the perfect sensei treats the student that can defeat him, and show others how. That's the oldest thing. **Sonny:** Everyone can say that as well. It's easy to put the poster on the wall that can espouse that value, but then actually being able to do that, and having a culture where people still don't look at that as a bad thing and still have that support from each other is the key really, and the most difficult part about it. That takes the work and that takes potentially a toll in being able to put that into place. Was there any significant challenges or times, things that you had to overcome while building that kind of culture? **Heath:** Yes, for sure. There was a time when we had won a team trophy, and they wouldn't allow me to accept-- We got second at a No-Gi Pans one time, with two guys, that's a true story. Marcella Garcia's team had won everything and the other 17 divisions were won by like individuals, so from different teams. It just worked out perfectly. Actually, I wasn't allowed to get the trophy yet, and it happened again, in Atlanta. Finally, they let me on the podium. Actually one of the Gracie Barra guys said, "Man, let the dude on there." You know what I mean? Next week though, there were two kids, eight-year-olds that were up there, and they were holding it, and I had guys competing and rules are rules. I get it, I understand it, and I'm okay with that. If everyone's following the rules, I'm cool with that, but it was tough to be in the stands yelling from 40 feet away, when I have students that are in the finals of the open worlds, you know what I mean? In the Gi, and in blue and purple, and just things like that. I could see people, girlfriends, and just people down and you want to make the coaching only black belts, I'm all for that, I get it, and I can appreciate that, but I wish the rules were all applied the same to everyone. That's been a long time ago. Now, I think things have really shaped up, and I think they've fixed a lot, and it's gotten much better, but there's been a lot of shit talk about our team over the years, you know what I mean? Especially before the Daisy Fresh thing came out, we were on the scene, and we've always been a little bit rowdy. You know that they're boys, they're from 17 or even younger than that, to 25. Like I said, they're just young, and they're full of it and they're ready to go. We started making some statements, we just didn't really have the numbers to win anything. We would take 10 guys and win 12 gold medals, we just didn't have the numbers, but now, I think things have grown. There's always a push back in anything, you know what I mean? In the last year, everyone has been extremely kind. When we won the No-Gi Pans, I actually really felt like that almost every coach from even the major teams, some of them wouldn't get on the podium with me. They had other people get up there, because they didn't want to be up there, but it is what it is. We take our Ls like champs. If we're in third, I get up there. If we don't get a medal, it is what it is, but for the most part they were really supportive man, and they really went out of their way. I think they're starting to see, it's not about American or Australian, or Brazilian. It's not about that. It's just about Jiu-Jitsu man and saving people and growing our sport. In 100 years from now, can you imagine how big this is going to be, and looking back on things and seeing, man what a -- It's important for me for Pedigo Submission Fighting to not turn into one of these giant organizations, not that there's anything wrong with these things. It's just, I see some of these coaches sometimes and I always have a list. You can catch me any tournament, I'll have the big giant list and coach every every person we got and running around the entire time. Some of these guys, they'll go and coach guys in the finals and they've never met these guys before. You know what I mean? It's like they close out in divisions with people that they've never met. Dante Leone, when we were in his finals, that was in one of the Daisy Fresh, this is the No-Gi Black Belt World Championships, so that this kid's dream and they wanted him to step down and give the title to this guy that he doesn't even know. I don't even know if they'd ever trained together before. Maybe but, I just don't understand that. I don't get that. They'll say, it's just about points but you know what? If Sonny and Heath are going into finals, and we already got the points, why ask one of us to step down? There's little more to it I think, and I think these things are all changing. We won the No-Gi Pans, the blue belt open. We got first and second, and one of our lightweights, Jacob Bornemann and Tristan Overvig, they had the match, man. We won first and second in the lightweight division. They tagged Cravens and Jacob Bornemann, they had the match. I think it's important for the person who deserves to win to win. I think it hurts, if one of the two are weaker or something, I think it hurts them even more to just give them the title and secretly, deep down inside, you might always wonder who won and I just think it's important for the best person to win. The guys are so happy anyway to be up there. They got nothing to lose, but when they get out there man and go against each other, they banging. These guys live together. This isn't like Jacob and some kid from Brazil that he's never met before. This is like his roommate that he lives with. I just think keeping it pure, and I think that's part of watering it down here. The same guys who bitch about watering it down. The same guys wanting to close out the divisions and asking people to step down, and it just is what it is, man. For us, we're always going to get it in, we're always going to have the matches, and I think until everybody else does too, it hurts the sport a little bit. American wrestlers, you can't imagine the disgust that they have, knowing that these guys close divisions out. There already pissed off because there's two third places. Me explaining that to them almost ends up in a fight every time. The fact that these two guys that don't know each other are closing out for points, or that sometimes guys will close and say, "Hey, this is my friend from so and so, we closed the division." They wouldn't even be on the same fucking team. I don't know how it is in Australia, because that's even a smaller community over there, but I just think it all plays into that bitch ass-ness, and it just breeds a weak competition mentality. People think that they're building the team and the organization a little bit more, but really, I think it's just a weakening, and I think that's a part of the reasons that a lot of these guys leave. One of my old training partners, he moved away. Jonathan Thomas, I don't know if you're familiar with him? Redhead John. John and I actually got all our belts together. A lot of people don't know that he's blue and white, we went up white, blue, purple, brown, and then when he moved away, we did a lot of training together. We happened to be Rodrigo's at the exact same time, and we were the same size, so we got it in a lot. His brother is actually a coach at one of our association gyms that we have now in Tennessee, but when he got to Alliance, they asked him two or three years in a row to step down to one of the guys, like Mario Reis or Cobrinha. These guys had multiple world championships, and they would close out in the in the semis, so they didn't have to have a match, and they could do the finals. I don't know, man, and it just so rubbed me the wrong way. I just always thought at that point in my life, man if we ever get to where we're able to win at this level, I think it's so important for the sport to do these matches. Like I said, we're a baby team still. Hopefully, we're able to change some things, and some people appreciate and understand that and that. I'd rather give up the team trophy than the boys wonder who the best person was. I think, if it's that important to you-- It's about them, and they're going to carry this around for the rest of their lives. You know what I mean? Like I said for Dante, that was his opportunity since-- He was 20-years-old or something, he's a fucking kid. His lifelong dream, and he's Canadian on top of that. He is the first ever Canadian black belt world champion. Not even giving him that the chance to do that, and we were ready. You know what I mean? He had trained at the training camp, and damn was good, he was ready to go and I just hated that. Actually hearing that and being there, that was my first time that I had been in the black belt world champion box, trying to get one coach in the box down there. I don't know man. It was tough to hear. Talk about watered down and stuff like that. Like I said, people from two separate countries that don't know each other. **Sonny:** I hear you on that. I'm not a fan of closeouts myself. In fact, one of the most memorable matches I ever had was when I went against my good friend and teammate in the finals. I'll regularly bring it up with him at every opportunity. **Heath:** Who won? **Sonny:** Me. That's why I still bring it up. **Heath:** Oh, that's right. So memorable. **Sonny:** Don't worry. Apparently, I just ran and stole the whole time. **Heath:** That's why it's important. Because maybe it's a minimal fraction of anything but like I said, the best guy won that day. Maybe next time he would win, but this time you won and you know. Sometimes you fight harder against your friends. I've had two brothers that have went against each other before. It was a bloodbath, man. It was like, they killed each other going out there. If you don't mind me asking, how's the ju-jitsu scene in Australia right now with all the stuff? **Sonny:** Man, it's been going well. There's certainly been a lot more changes, again, from maybe 10 years ago, where there was a lot more distance between schools. There was only a certain few that you could get to, and now it's really popping up on. There's 10 gyms in a three-kilometer radius of where I'm at now, with new ones still opening, which is-- **Heath:** You got to kick those guys arse man! **Sonny:** Well, you got to have a little bit of that, "Let's go guys." You got to have a little bit, at the same time, it's also getting to the point where it's like, "Well, there's just so many now that--" It's easier if it's the one rival or something like that. Now, it's so many, it's like, "We're still going to go hard," but I might not have even heard of one place that we're going against yet. Even with cross-training and such like that, it certainly seems like it's become a lot more acceptable, and relaxed a bit more. I think everyone, the core group of competitors, and top-level guys out here seem to be like that. They're all training together regardless of affiliation. They are all getting together and doing working. **Heath:** That's how you know. I think that's the way to really gauge things, is that what you just said. At the end of the day, the top guys, the big competitors there regardless of affiliation, they're getting an NC. That's what's important. That's the example that needs to be set. A competitor know he's good, it's sucks. If you have a gym and a guy opens up the gym next door. If you were cooking hamburgers, that would suck for a hamburger place to come there. It's a little personal, but at the end of the day it's like when if St Browns getting it in and showing the right shit, those guys from the other gym are going to come over anyway. That's always how I look at it. It's like, if someone needs to go, c'est la vie, it is what it is. I think, even when guys come you're like-- I helped a couple of guys for years, and they actually won World Championships for other teams. I always, of course, hoped that they would switch over, but that didn't make it any less, me happy for them when they won. Does it suck to see their coach get on there and talk about how he's training them and did this? Of course, but, at the end of the day, it goes back to, "What was this about? Me or helping them? I think, if you keep that mindset, I think the more people that do it, the better. The more places that pop up sometimes the better. It sucks to the business owner, but for ju-jitsu and the longevity of it, I think it's important to have the more the better. **Sonny:** I think one of the core messages that you've mentioned is the use of ju-jitsu as a vehicle to change people's lives for the better. If there's more people doing ju-jitsu, then there's more possibility of changing people's lives for the better. Maybe just to finish up is, what do you think is it that makes ju-jitsu special or gives it the ability as a sport to be a vehicle for change and bettering people, or is it something that you think you could do through anything? Is it just a belief in yourself? **Heath:** Of course, no matter what you're doing, you have to believe in yourself. I can't speak on too much stuff because ju-jitsu is really all that I've ever done. The reason that I think ju-jitsu is an amazing gift for that is because it doesn't lie. You have to be honest with yourself because you know deep down inside if you're fibbing, or if you haven't been working hard or you're cheating on your diet, or you're not taking your time to get better or make people around you better, it tells the truth always. For [mental health, ju-jitsu, it doesn't fix mental health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/an-inside-look-at-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-and-mental-health/). Obviously, if you have the mental health issues, you need to talk to someone that does mental health. I think it's just saved a lot of lives out there, man. My favorite line ever in the Daisy Fresh was when Michael Sears asked Jorge Valladares, he asked him and Spatchy and Alejandro and Andrew and they almost had the same answer. Like, "If you weren't here at that Pedigo submission fighting, what would you be doing?" I said, "I probably would just kill myself." I got a message two nights ago, a guy had sent me and just said, "I have a disease. I drink and I'm killing myself. Can you help me?" It's just a local guy. When you take these things on, it's deciding and it's a, "Hey, I want to save as many lives as I can." Then you don't get to hang the phone up though at eight o'clock when you hang the Gi up and leave from working. You get two o'clock phone calls in the morning, and are you willing to do all that? Because that's what it takes. That's what it takes to really build something special. It's funny, people, they always ask me about the ju-jitsu like there's some secret ju-jitsu moves. You're one of the first ones actually that's asked me like, "Is the success because of the ju-jitsu or is it because of the environment and the culture?" I actually believe it's the second one. I actually believe it's the environment that makes the champions. Like I said, it's 2021, man, you want to do spider guard, watch Michael Lang, that was 15 years ago. You can learn anything from watching stuff, but you can't build an environment, you have to do that and the people around you have to do that. I think that a lot goes into it and I think that everyone wants to talk about feeling like they do that. Remember the king of the kingdom thing and if you're a black belt that's out there, not judging you, or anyone that's listening, but ask yourself that, is this so you can be the boss or is it because you truly want to save lives? Are you willing to miss your son and daughter's AFL Junior meets or basketball games? Are you willing to get up at two in the morning to bail someone out of jail? If you're not, that's cool, that's fine. I think it takes these things. When a guy's wife leaves him, and he has nothing, he has ju-jitsu and the people that are there, that's what makes this so special, man. Our gym is just made up of so many of those that. We have more non-competitors than we have competitors. It's like a surprise to people. In that little Daisy Fresh room, we have about 50 to 60 people every single night in there plus the visitors that come and probably half are competitors and the other half, they're competing, but not for metals, they're competing for their life. Which, to me is even way more delicate and important than winning 100 World Championships. The medals and trophies are just that, at the end of the day, they're just possessions. If you have the opportunity to save these people's lives, and everyone out there that's a leader and that runs a gym, even if you're just a student, you can step up, man and you can really help people. It is a full-time job. While I was talking you, I have about 500 unanswered text messages. Man, they just build up, and sometimes you fall behind and that starts to put a lot of stress on you too. That goes back into, you have to make sure that you're all right too. I think you can get lost when you're really trying to build something. I got off subject on it there. It's so important, I think to really be doing everything that's necessary. If you want results, I just think that it takes that. The ju-jitsu is just a minimal part of winning the environment as everything. If you're an Australian Football League player that you play on the shittiest team, and you do that for five years. I think if you go and play on the best teams for five years, no matter what anyone says, your game is going to be elevated up by the people around you, the coaches. It might not be just a skill. It might be the coaching. It might be your environment. It might be like a positive impact that they have, but it's not secret strength conditioning, a deep De La Riva sweep that nobody knows. It's not that, it's just so many things that factor into that. I think people could spend a little bit more time, building that environment for the students than just the ju-jitsu itself, what I mean? Hats off to anyone who does that, like I said. It's totally cool for anyone to do anything they want. It's not a knock on anyone. It's just it's the only way I know how to do things. Like I said, it's a full-time job, man. At the end of the day, ju-jitsu was all I knew and this is the way that I cannot leave something behind and feel like I truly tried to change and better the world. Maybe in another life it can be something else, but it's ju-jitsu now, and that's all I've done since I was 12 years old. My brother opened up the gym and then I did in 1997, so I was 13, 14, and we immediately started. We were able to rent our first place and he moved into it and it was right uptown on the square. We had two students for one year. One of them is a black belt now. He runs a gym for us out in Los Angeles area, Derek Featherston, but it just it takes time. Like I said, anything worth anything, it takes incredible feats and a failure and just the time to put into it. That's what I've done because I don't know-- If I didn't do this, I don't know what else I would do. I guess work at the factory or whatever. That just wasn't enough for me, man. I just wanted to reach as many people as possible. Ju-jitsu's given me the opportunity to-- Especially now I feel like actually, I change the world, even if it's just one of these boys. If they were truly going to kill themselves or hurt someone else, just being being there for them. The price is, it's 50 bucks a month right now to train at our gym, 50 bucks. You can live there for 50 bucks. That's American dollars, not AUD, but it's definitely not about making money and like are you able to pay the bills and stuff like that. I could raise the prices and I'll make more money, but you're not able to help as many people. When we get a bigger gym let's charge more money obviously, but it's still just going to be about helping people. I think that winning is just a by-product of that in the environment, that change the question. I think the environment is so important and the mental aspect of this is-- when you watch especially the lower belts, man, like the purples and the blue, purple, brown. Sometimes it just comes down to who's tougher. It's who's got the most heart and who wants to win the most. They're all so good, and you can see this. I think that so much mental like when you-- The AOJ guys are incredible at building confident ju-jitsu guys. Byrd Satya, he had just went against a Cole from AOJ, the young kid, he was incredible. Cole actually won the match. Man, even at that age, he's like 15 or 16. He was so confident. Their ju-jitsu is wonderful, but their confidence level, like the Mendez brothers are doing a wonderful job at building those guys confidence, they believe that they're going to win. I really think that that goes a long way. I think it's a big part of competing in that. We break down technique and we break down takedowns but do you break down breaking people in general? I do. I try to look and see, like I said earlier when someone breaks physically and when they slow down, if they grab the grip and you break the grip, maybe on the eighth one, the ninth one, it's all especially look after the 10th one the guy's not going to reach anymore, he's going to reach down. I think these are things that kind of go unnoticed. There really is. There's just so much mental into it. At a certain level, everyone, for the most part-- there's obviously stand outs. There there's the Buchachers and the Gordon Ryan's the statute Brooks's. There's these guys, out there, but for the most part, normal, normal, guys you know. The semis and the finals, these guys are going to be pretty equal in technique. What's it going to come down to? Is it going to come down to ju-jitsu, or is it going to come down to mental toughness and that awareness and preparation? I think these are things that are all vital to becoming a champion. If you're one of those guys up, if you like say, "Brown, you can just maul the fucking guys." That's great, but I'm not, you know what I mean? I have to look into actually more things than that. I think the boys have really benefited from that. I think that hopefully when they open their own gyms and they're able to pass that down and they're willing to do that work and build the environment, you know what I mean? When you build the environment, it's like the field of dreams. I had a Brazilian guy that kept telling me these IBJJF tournaments, if you build it, they will come. I didn't know, that's what he was saying in Portuguese. Then a girl that was walking by told me, "Do you know what he's saying?" I said, no. That's what he was saying from the movie. He was being supportive of the show, which is really cool. I actually bought the DVD next time I seen them and give it to him, keep it in my bag. I do believe that. I think it's really about the environment as much as the ju-jitsu itself. I think that if you're not as good at jujitsu as a lot of people, that you can make up for that in a lot of different ways. Sometimes guys just aren't technicians. You know what I mean? It's look, you, Sonny Brown has the physical attributes that he has. That's the way it is. Even if you get juiced up out of your mouth-- **Sonny:** Not much. **Heath:** Me neither, I hear you, but you have hair at least that's , You have what you have. Some people have more. I have a kid, a Jacob Ornament kid, he just walked on a college wrestling team. He's never wrestled. They give him a full ride. It's like one of the greatest accomplishments as a teammate and coach he was able to a full ride on that team and a college to wrestle. He's never wrestled. He just learned how to wrestle in the gym, doing ju-jitsu. Now that he's able to be on that team. That was really incredible. The kid's physically just a monster man. I have other guys that just aren't that way. They have to take the mental route and do that. Andrew Wiltse is a lot like that. Anyone who knows now, you know that guy's a giant dork, you know what I mean? He's into this weird, like wizard *Lord of the Rings* type stuff. I don't even know what the hell he likes, but he reads books and he is physically an animal, but he takes the time to learn the things like a hand placement, feet placement, a hip positioning, and all these stuff. You're like, "Where is his knee on the knee slice? Is it slicing out is it slicing down, what's the angle? What's the percentage of misses the first try?" He knows all this stuff. It's all completely broken down. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, this shit does matter. I mean, there's a level that it doesn't matter at. Like I said, some people can slide by and keep doing it, but I think at some point it's like the NBA, the basketball in America in the 1960s, a 6'10 guy was the best guy. Now the shooting guards are six foot 10. Now they weigh 280 pounds. They have muscles, they have conditioning coaches. There's more to it than just the basics of playing basketball. There's a lot more to it that goes into it. I think that you'll kind of see that slowly turn up as ju-jitsu gets more popular and other places I think places like Australia and Europe and small places, like South America, Mexico, all these places. I think they're going to make up for what they miss in technique by these things, and being able to replace a technique that they haven't been able to get with. Like I said, toughness, or just the physics of a winning a match, basically. **Sonny:** I hear you on that. I think that kind of wraps things together, where it is that change in ju-jitsu of perhaps shifting to that team culture, team sport, more atmosphere than requiring that belief and team leadership that instills the belief in those, everyone around you, not just in the leader, but in themselves as well. Then that belief potentially having the ability to overcome techniques. Then also recognizing that it's not just putting that comradery in a mission statement or value statement that's on the wall. There is a big sacrifice that comes along with going down that route. **Heath:** For sure and like I said don't let me-- I'm not saying that ever-- You can always learn technical, you know what I mean? I'm not saying be a meathead and go out there. You should constantly be learning. Even when you're a black belt and 100 years old. If you're still a student of the game, and love ju-jitsu, you should always be trying to learn. Some people aren't capable of picking things up the way other people are. Some people just have that knack for just being able to see something. We talked earlier about Jordan and Andrew, that sometimes John Danaher, these guys. Sometimes they just get things and they understand things a little differently. Maybe in other areas of life, this would've been considered a negative thing but for us in ju-jitsu, it's a great thing. These things don't replace learning the techniques but I think people have to keep in mind sometimes that capabilities of certain people are limited sometimes and they have to use their attributes in different ways and you can't ever count anyone out, you know what I mean? Mikey Musumeci, He's a perfect example of this. Look at the guy, he's just technically-- I think he might be a little bit more athletic than he lets on. The guy is incredible. He just told Spatchy "Look you're a little too small for this weight class you're doing. You need to be drilling 12 hours a day if you're going to be doing this." He drilled that heel hook that he did on Lucas. He did it to him. He did it to Spatchy for hours before. **Spatchy:** Same thing. **Heath:** The exact same one, "Hey this is what I'm going to do," and then he went out there and he just applied that perfectly. I just think he's on that side of the spectrum of ju-jitsu. I think he's that technical genius. I think Rodolfo Viera is on the other side of him. Not that he's not an insanely technically amazing guy. I'm just saying he has physical attributes that allowed him to roll through-- He was that king and then when Buchecha came, he was even more of a physical specimen and then he just rolled right through him. I just think that you have to constantly be a student of everything. That pretty much sums it up. **Sonny:** I love it, Heath. You've been very generous to me with your time today and I really want to just say thank you for taking the time out of your day. I really appreciate it because it's been a fascinating discussion for me just to get those insights. Especially on the culture side of things that we've gone over. It's such an important part that's often just given the lip service treatment or just that surface level stuff. It's been really great to get into that and I'd love to actually if-- I know Spatchy has been in the background there. I'd love to have-- Probably I'll speak to him to get a full chat with him some time as well if any of the guys there because each one there is a cast of characters, right? They've all got great stories to tell. **Heath:** Definitely all those guys, they all love to, I'm so happy for them that, like I said, that floor gave the platform to show them and for them to get the time to speak to guys like you. Helping them be seen and I think it just helps everybody realize, like I said, that, "Hey man I can do this," and that'll really take you far in life. Just believing in yourself a little bit and that can carry over to job interviews and talking to girls or whatever. That confidence carries and I think the show does that for so many more people than people realize, you know? All of us weren't lucky enough to be born in a place where there's a lot. I think that's really what this has done. People see it. If you can't be a part of it, build it yourself. It's not always the route that's the easiest one but it was the correct one for me. Even if you're part of something now, you can still build and you can change and you can make things happen and for everybody out there, it's important. If you're a leader, just remember you're responsible for not just the students that you have but there's students and people down the line, their kids and these people really look up to you. I think it's important to always remember that and really believe in whatever it is that you're trying to sell. If you do and you're passionate about that, I think that results are-- They're endless, that capabilities of what you're able to do are. All these boys, man, anyone that they're all down and they'd love to have them on, they'd love to be on there. You just let them know and we'll hammer it out brother. **Sonny:** Amazing. Yes, definitely want to make that happen. It really is the power of belief that's kicking ass as well. It's good to see. **Heath:** Yes no doubt. Jorge just started with the Pedigo Submission Fighting YouTube thing and a lot of the videos he put on there, the reason that we put those out there, it's actually for that. The comments on there are so good from the Daisy Fresh thing. We wanted to just keep sharing the story. Everyone's able to talk to the boys, see that it's possible. It really makes me excited just thinking about it. Checking those videos out on there. That's not like a plug either. They're really motivational and they can really give hope to, like I said, small places and the countries that are just behind because of where you are. It's like Australia, ju-jitsu's not behind, it's limited because of that. Everything catches up though. Some of the best guys in the world are Australian guys and I think that everything comes around and it just takes time. It's like you said, there's more than 100 blackbelts there. 10 years ago, there were like probably 6. Everything grows and over time, it's really exciting to think about what all this will be like in 50 years when I'm long gone. It's really neat to think about. I'm really happy that even if I had the tiniest part in being a part of the foundation for that, like I said, in that revolution. That makes me really happy. All this is worth it just for that. **Sonny:** I love it. No doubt you will and the story is still being written as we speak, so I'm sure there's plenty more chapters to add onto what's going to come in the years ahead. **Heath:** No doubt. **Sonny:** Heath, thanks so much for your time mate. I really appreciate it again. You guys are inspiring, watching from over here. Yes, just want to say thanks a lot and hopefully, I'll talk to the other guys and we could do it again in the future. **Heath:** You're the best, Sonny. Thanks for having me on and like everything you do. I know it's your free time that you just do it. A lot of people always look at it like guys are trying to self promote themselves and make things but they don't realize that-- I've watched a lot of your stuff and I get a lot of people that ask to do these things and I do one every few months usually, but I just try to pick the ones where I know that people are passionately just-- They want to make people in ju-jitsu better. I know that you do that, and thank you for that. I'm humbled to be on your show with all the great people you've had. I really look forward to coming over to Australia, me and the guys. Like I said, I don't really do seminars like just me. I want to have all the boys too. They're a part of everything that's been built. We would like to come over so maybe here in the next year, we'll get over and maybe we'll get to cruise by your spot and check it out. \[crosstalk\] They're really wild, man, just fair warning. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I'm humbled to hear that and yes that'd be amazing. We got to wait for everything to open up but that would be just-- Going to be good times. **Heath:** Thanks brother. Well, thanks so much for having me on and I'll have Alejandro give you a shout and we'll schedule some times for the boys and you can have some twos or ones or whatever you want, you're the boss. **Sonny:** Thanks so much. It's just a treat to be able to do that. **Heath:** All right thanks again, Sonny, I appreciate you brother. **Sonny:** Thanks so much, Heath. Have a great day mate. **Heath:** You too. Thanks. **Sonny:** Cheers. ![Heath Pedigo Interview on Pedigo Submission Fighting](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/heath_promo-1024x1024.jpg "Heath Pedigo Of Pedigo Submission Fighting › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Daniele Bolelli On The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/daniele-bolelli-mythology-meaning-martial-arts/) **Published:** April 30, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Daniele Bolelli - Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Daniele_Bolelli-1024x576.jpg "Daniele Bolelli › Sonny Brown")I talk to Daniele Bolelli, a writer, martial artist, and university professor. He is the host of multiple podcasts including the Drunken Daoist podcast and the [History on Fire podcast](http://historyonfirepodcast.com/episodes). He has also authored many books such as "On the Warrior’s Path: Philosophy, Fighting, and Martial Arts Mythology" and "Not Afraid: On Fear, Heartbreak, Raising a Baby Girl, and Cage Fighting". Here we discuss how martial arts is the perfect medium for learning the limits of your capability and reaching your potential despite a few broken arms and busted knees, why the timid sport of soccer has the most [violent fanbase](https://www.sonnybrown.net/risk-taking-in-mixed-martial-arts-and-the-distinction-between-fighting-and-violence-with-dr-alex-channon/ "Risk-Taking in Mixed Martial Arts and the Distinction Between Fighting and Violence With Dr Alex Channon") of all and why a jack of all trades may be the master of none, but can oftentimes be better than only a master of one. ## Listen To Daniele Bolelli ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### Martial arts mythology and transformation Daniele explores why martial arts are so often framed through stories of transformation. The mythology may be romanticised, but he argues that it grows from a real process of confronting weakness, discomfort and uncertainty through training. ### Learning through discomfort and failure The conversation examines the value of repeatedly entering situations where success is not guaranteed. Daniele sees the experience of being outmatched, losing and returning to train as one of the most transferable lessons martial arts can offer. ### Teaching martial arts as more than technique Sonny and Daniele discuss the role of the martial arts teacher in shaping more than physical skill. Good instruction can create an environment where students learn judgement, perspective, resilience and a more realistic sense of their own capabilities. ### Breadth, specialisation and the value of being a generalist The episode also considers the tension between deep specialisation and broad experience. Daniele makes the case that being competent across multiple areas can sometimes be more useful than maximising a single narrow skill. ## Key Takeaways - Martial arts mythology often exaggerates real experiences of growth and transformation. - Repeated exposure to failure and discomfort can build resilience that transfers beyond training. - Teaching martial arts involves shaping judgement and perspective, not only transmitting technique. - Broad experience can sometimes create more adaptable practitioners than narrow specialisation alone. ## Resources - [Daniele Bolelli](https://www.danielebolelli.com/) - [Daniele Bolelli on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/daniele_bolelli/) - [History on Fire](https://historyonfirepodcast.com/) - [The Drunken Taoist](https://thedrunkentaoist.com/) - *On the Warrior’s Path: Philosophy, Fighting, and Martial Arts Mythology* - *Not Afraid: On Fear, Heartbreak, Raising a Baby Girl, and Cage Fighting* ## Daniele Bolelli Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Daniele, great to have you here. It's a pleasure. I've been a fan of your work for a long time, especially *On the Warrior's Path*. I just thought I'd get into just initially about what attracted you to start training martial arts back in the beginning? What was it that drew you to it? **Danielle:** I think it's was the local fad, right? We watched too many *Star Wars* movie. We watched too many Bruce Lee movies. There's that dream which all those things are built on. Like the mythology of it is a young lost guy who goes to the wise master who show him the way of the force. And it's sad you are not a young lost guy anymore, now you're a Jedi master. It's all we love, right? What it is it's a dream of empowerment. It's like the whole [martial art movie story and martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mcdojolife-ingredients-martial-arts-mcdojo/) in general. It's the story of you're weak, you are vulnerable, and you don't want to be any of those things, and there's a process to that. There's a lot of the Joseph Campbell, the *Hero's Journey* type of vibe. You're going to go on with this quest that's going to transform who you are, and he's going to reform you into something that you like a whole lot better. I think why we all do it. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I think I've had the same thing. I've often wondered would I have experienced a broken arm in a mixed martial arts fight if it wasn't for the *Ninja Turtles*? \[laughs\] **Danielle:** Right. Exactly. Or probably not. **Sonny:** Is that idea that then drawn us to it? Is that just a romanticized fictional idea that western people have of eastern martial arts that is just made from media companies? **Danielle:** It is and it isn't. it's like anything else. Anytime when people are, "Oh, it's just romanticized." I mean, to some degree of course. But it's also usually based on a seed of truth. You take something that's real. The way that martial arts do transform people, the empowerment that is very real. You do take the fact that some people in the martial arts who are inevitably have been more than just the thugs and people who can throw a good punch, but have also had something interesting to say about life, and you just zero in on that part that extra interesting and you make it the stereotype. Most stereotypes are not born out of completely making stuff up out of thin air. You take seed of truth, and you just blow it up to where the image of the martial art teacher. Now, 95% of martial art teacher you're ever going to run into are not like that at all. But you zero in on the part that you like, that you dig, that you wish it to be, and then that's what the movies will focus, on to the point where it looks like that's what it is in all occasions. Of course, it's not in all occasion, but that doesn't mean it's not that way in any occasion. **Sonny:** Then to actually get that experience out of it, this transformational turning, making the weak strong, it's a noble idea that draws us to it. But then we go into the martial arts school, and generally the first thing we might encounter is a savage beating at the hands of some person who is a lot bigger than us, sweating all over us. How can we actually get that through that kind of training? **Danielle:** In fact, that's one of the sayings that that toughest person in any martial art room is usually the white male who signed up the latest because he's going to sack **\[unintelligible 00:04:59\]** you know. Everybody in the room is better than they are. To keep showing up day after day when they know that they're going to get their ass kicked for at least a year or two before anything starts happening, that takes some serious mental strength. In some way, that should be rewarded with shining the spotlight on it. That will be some hell of a mental toughness to go in day in and day out, day after day after day. All you're going to experience is just loss and somebody squashing. They can be nice about it. Ideally, you don't go to a **\[unintelligible 00:05:34\]** school where they're just overly brutal about it. The reality is that even if you're playing nice, you're still going to get your ass kicked. That part is where really debated-- In some way, that's the part that interesting the most about martial arts. Because we all like the perfect armbar, the great spinning back kick, the technical mastery is beautiful to watch, and we all want. One of the real benefits is that toughness that you develop by going into uncomfortable situation. By going into- getting used to losing. Getting used to getting pummeled. Getting used to fighting on when it feels hopeless. That to me that can be used outside of martial art, even more than the perfect technique that realistically I probably never going to do it outside of the martial art world. That's the stuff that will translate to life. Because inevitably life will deliver good **\[unintelligible 00:06:32\]** kicks that you'll grow in, and you will have to deal with it, and you will have to have that toughness to come through when things feel hopeless. **Sonny:** That makes sense to me. To get that toughness through the martial arts training, could we not also get that through just other forms of training that could possibly cause us less risk of injury? We can push ourselves, maybe someone could do triathlons and or whatever they choose. What would make the martial arts special over any other pursuit? **Danielle:** What you're saying makes perfect sense. You can get there. You can get very similar lesson through many other parts that have nothing to do with martial arts. I don't think that martial arts is the one and only. I think there are other ways to get some of those lessons. The one thing that's really special about martial art is that really is- it's about neutralize conflict. When it doesn't get any more primal, that just unarmed conflict which another you might be in the least intellectual and most objective way possible. Just through physical body clashing with one another. One will triumph, and one will get **\[unintelligible 00:07:50\]** . It's very primal. It's an archetype. It's something that you can learn lessons about conflict through playing basketball, through rock climbing, through whatever the hell you want. There are many, many paths to it. But they don't have quite that archetypal quality that martial arts does, because really nothing deals with conflict in such a direct and raw way as martial art. **Sonny:** I agree there's that for sure that primary element of human nature that draws us towards it. If we're being drawn back to our primal nature into a less intelligent form of being, isn't that a dead illusion, a regression back? Should we not trying to be the civilized- live in a civilized manner and get away from all that conflict? **Danielle:** Yes and no. In the sense that I feel that on one end if that's who you are and your entire world is built on just clubbing somebody in the head and being physically dominant and that's all you understand, I can think of better ways to spend your time. At the same time, I feel that sometimes modern civilized life which is also in a lot of ways. I like going to sleep without the thought that an enemy tribe may come in the middle of the night to cut my throat. Stuff that-- I dig that part of modern life. But at the same time, there's something that as long as we have bodies, as long as we have-- There are certain energies that are part of who we are, both physical and psychological. I think martial arts in that sense are the perfect ritualized way to tackle those very primal energies in a way that that's constructive and can work in modern life. Nobody is telling you that in order to achieve those things, we need to organize gladiator events where we just face off with blades and one will survive. That's taking it a little too far and in a not so healthy direction. Martial arts are that perfect medium. They give you a taste of this energy, allow you to explore it, allow you to learn that edge, allow you to learn that power about yourself and about life, without being something that takes you to a completely different way of life where it's not even desirable. It's like there's a difference between training martial arts, even fairly obsessively, and being the guy at the stadium who's just looking for- classic thing like European soccer stadiums where the hardcore fans are using the games as an excuse to have these giant gang fights. That's a little different. Not quite. They both deal with violence. They both deal with conflict. My way of seeing things seems a lot healthier than the alternatives. **Sonny:** That's fascinating. I've thought about that before where with soccer, it's so bizarre that it has to be one of the most, I don't know, least violent sports where they fake injuries. They just fake it. That's part of it. Part of the sport is just getting someone brushing past you and pretending it was a catastrophic injury, which we know is not true, and yet they have the most violent fan base imaginable. How does that make sense? I've never been able to wrap my head around that. **Danielle:** I think that speaks volume about a lot of modern society, people loss of identity, people loss of being part of a group, people desperately want to belong to something. All belonging is built on a we versus them mentality. What's more dramatic of a we versus them, than just- we have our colors, we have our flags, they have their flags, we clash with-- It goes back to something that just was there from the dawn of humankind. It's something that **\[unintelligible 00:12:00\]** understand very well, it's our tribe versus theirs. We don't live in tribe anymore, but the need is still there.The need to identify with that small group, and it's fun. You people **\[unintelligible 00:12:11\]** in soccer fans, but no sense. **Sonny:** It's interesting what you say then about the tribal conflict because I understand that, and even within the martial arts, I do think that exists still with, or it did, probably does still just within the different styles of training of martial arts. Especially, the last 10 or 20 years now, I guess, the overhaul with mixed martial arts being developed, and there's still the traditional martial arts schools going around. I guess the broad categorization you could make is the mixed martial arts is more real, but at the same time, there's all those barbaric elements that people get turned off from in cage fighting, that turned people away from martial arts. Even though that's got that benefit to it, could we not go back to just training the traditional martial arts, we don't get injured, everyone's happy, and we're getting a workout in? Can we not just get the same benefits from doing that? **Danielle:** There's definitely advantages to some of that stuff. It's like when my daughter- my daughter is 10 years old now. She started martial arts a little bit ago, I think when she was seven or something. People were like, "Oh, are you going to put her in Jiu-Jitsu?" I'm like, "No, I think I'll just going to put her in Taekwondo at first." Taekwondo especially it's so much simpler to follow, there's the structure, these guys are pros. Their , they have teaching methodology, they know exactly how to handle kids. They know how to teach them some basic body dynamics that they're going to be able to take a bunch of other things that they're going to do in life. My daughter, she really doesn't like authority very much. At school when there's calls for the principal says this, but this my daughter follows with a roll her eyes reaction of like, "Fuck this, I don't want to deal with this stuff." When it came in, she loved it, she had no problem with it. I was like, "How the hell is that possible?" It's like, "This is super regimented, and they are so--." But it's like, "Yes, but I trust them." There's something about these guys the way they teach that I accept discipline and authority from them because they do it well. I don't accept it from those guys because they are not credible, but these guys already earned it. I was there, usually that's not my style at all, the kind of Korean regimented approach is far from my approach. But when I was watching the classes, I was like, "These guys are really good at it." It's not going to work for everybody. The next person is going to have the same setup and they are irritable, and they just spend their time yelling at kids and it doesn't pay off, it's not a good idea. When it's done well, there's something good about that approach when it's a little more structure, when there's more emphasis on some values that we like, especially for kids but even for adults. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I actually did a bit of Taekwondo myself a couple years ago, I got the yellow belt, but then stopped. One thing I noticed is, yes, they've been doing it a long time, they run a good class. It was fine, it was good fun. With that authority- and I especially think that it's good for kids as well what you're saying, it's perfect for kids. **Danielle:** You can always do Jiu-Jitsu later, that's great, but not right now. Early on I felt perfect to go with the traditional one. **Sonny:** That makes sense. So then how do you think that people can get that authority and do it right in martial arts when they're so open to, let's say, people abusing that authority as well is something that we see. That's almost an archetype in martial arts of just the dictator-hood, smashing people over the back with kendo sticks or something, and just abusing that authority. How do we get that mix right of proper respectful authority, and just this complete disabandonment of it? **Danielle:** I think unfortunately it boils down to individuals. Because we can put together all the right elements that would be ideal, and in the hands of one person, they turn out perfect. In the hands of the next person, terrible. That's why even martial arts, we all have this idea of the martial art teachers as these guys who don't just teach you martial arts, but they have something about life they can teach and so on. Most don't, most martial art teachers are really good at what they do, maybe, hopefully, and they don't necessarily have deep wisdom to pass on anything else other than how to apply a good **\[unintelligible 00:17:07\]** that's it. You see so many cases, as you say, abuse of authority by martial art teachers on every direction. From sexual abuse, that unfortunately there's a whole lot of that stuff that you see going on, to just psychological abuse of their students, to just money. There's a lot of terrible people that really shouldn't be teaching because they happen to be good athletes, and they have good technical knowledge, they are teachers. Unfortunately, that's the same thing in anything else. If you go to school, one teacher is going to be awesome, and the next teacher is terrible, and you wasting your time. They shouldn't have that authority. Unfortunately, it's very hard, it's trial and error on the part of the customer to figure out, to separate one from the next, to figure out who's the real deal. It's the same thing is like, "How do you pick your friends? How do you pick the people you date?" It's hard. **Sonny:** I hear that. **Danielle:** You can check all the boxes of what it should be, but then one person is amazing, and one person turns out to be a nightmare. Unfortunately, there's no certified program to have a good date or the certified way to have a good coach. It is better to have some standards than not having them, but that doesn't guarantee that they are going to come out being great instructors. Unfortunately, that's the way it goes. You got to have your eyes open in any field of life when you're looking for a martial art teacher, when you're looking for friends, when you're looking for whatever. Whoever you bring into your life, you need to be able to recognize who's the real deal, and who's not such a **\[unintelligible 00:18:43\]** human being. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I guess it's an archetype again of martial arts that the teacher, the master, is going to impart some other form of wisdom beyond just the physical training. That's in the mythology. But then do you think that that's a responsibility that the teacher should provide? I look around when I'm teaching, I'm just wearing pajamas in a silly costume. The person in front of me might be doctors, lawyers, whatever. Any master in their own profession. And if can tell you how to choke someone, I'm not here to tell you about life. When do you think people you should do that? Is their responsibility to do it? **Danielle:** I think what you do, and these would be true in whatever you do, it doesn't just have to be a martial art, but in whatever field you do while you have students, you're going to teach them a technical skill, in this case martial arts, and then you're going to share who you are. If who you are has some depth to you, if you are as something beside technical skill to offer, people are going to pick up. And if not, then yes, you really shouldn't force it. It's not good idea to just say, "Let me just teach you guys all about life." In that sense, it's going to **\[unintelligible 00:20:11\]** indirectly. Just because that's who you are, that's how you speak, those are the examples you bring to the table, that's the energy that you bring to the table. Not because you have a title, or because you have, "Everybody should listen to me because I'm the master." It's more like if people gravitate to you because they like what you have to say, it's because of your charisma. It's because maybe they listen to something you've said, and it really rang true to them, and they applied it in their life and it worked, and it made their life better. But you don't do it because you sit down and think like, "Let me how I'm going to teach you the wisdom of life." You do it because you just share who you are. If who you are can deliver that to people, then that's great, and you should, it is important. In anything you do, you should try to help the people you come in contact with, and especially if you have students, the goal is to teach them a skill, but also to help them in life if you're able to. But without that arrogance of, "Oh, because I got a black belt, somehow I'm the master of life." No, you are who you are. Again, maybe you have some wise things to pass on, maybe you don't. I think a lot of it is role play. People take it too seriously, and they think that "Now I'm supposed to embody this idea." It's like, "No, you're supposed to be you, teaching a skill." If you happens to be somebody who is wise, who can share things that will help people in life, that's great. You definitely shouldn't repress that. Let it flow as part of a teacher. But it's going to come out naturally, not because of a role that you embody. **Sonny:** Yes, that's very important. Just to focus on those skills, just giving the ability to impart the knowledge of the skills in the best possible way. Just if anything else comes from that, people get drawn to whatever else, they can take something from that. Then let that be what it is, but-- **Danielle: \[unintelligible 00:22:11\]** and it can be done humbly. It can be done where it's like, "Hey guys, this something that for me as translated from the match to the rest of life. This is something that in my life it help. Take it as you will. It works for you, great. I'm glad if you can pick it up. You already know it, good for you. You don't think it applies to you, who cares? That's fine." You just share something that is part of your experience, which is what all of us ultimately can do. It's like, "Hey, this happens to be something that for me, it really help me." It's not exactly the fortune cookies irrational quote. It's more like, "This idea really worked for me." But again, I'm not trying to convert you to anything. It's like, "Now I'm done. I shared it. Now it's up to you to decide whether you want to do something with it or not." **Sonny:** That's right. I think one of the best things about the mixed martial arts is how it allows that testing because what I found with, especially Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is one of the reasons I keep doing it is just the unique thing of solving difficult problems under stress. It's simple. I don't like to attach anything else to it. No mystical side. It's just we solve problems under stress, and that can be used in any field of profession that you're in. That's it. That's one of those things. **Danielle:** I think as a teacher, that may be a good thing to shine a spotlight on. Like, "Hey, man, you're doing a phenomenal job **\[unintelligible 00:23:46\]** training." You can tell your student, "Hey, you see what a great job you're doing under stress, coming up with solutions." Can you do it in the rest of your life? What stops you from-- Why is it that when your kids are acting up, suddenly, all your wisdom go out the door, and you're not able to, why? Is there a way that you can make a translation from that ability that you have when we talk about Jiu-Jitsu, and you bring that to something else? You can toss ideas back and forth and figure out what are the obstacles that people struggle with, if it make sense to you. Nobody is great at everything. You can take all the- not just the technical skill, but even the mental skills that go with somebody like Michael Jordan. Is he able to apply them in the rest of his life? If he could do that in every aspect of his life, he would be like the Buddha, right? He would be **\[unintelligible 00:24:48\]** and he's like probably not. He has that ability. It's easier when you have that ability in one field, to then make the jump to other fields. It's not automatic at all, and it's not easy, but it's easier. I think that's part of something that we should put attention on sometime. It's like, okay, you're learning these things for what for? Just because you want to win the next tournament, or just so you can have an hour of mental health when you do Jiu-Jitsu? That's great. Nothing wrong with that. Can we take it a step further tough? Can we take that idea and just run with it even a little bit more? Again, it's not done in a, "I'm the wise master, let me teach you the ways." It can be more through dialogue. It can be more to just throw in things, and that people can decide to run with or not. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense. I would never tell someone how to fix a problem in their personal life unless they ask specifically or something, for my opinion. I'm just like, no, I don't want to give this unsolicited, "Here's how you should do something." If you don't ask, you probably don't want to hear it from me. \[laughs\] **Danielle:** I think the good thing there is just sharing one's experience, because one's experience is usually not perfect. There are situations where you mess up. There are situations where you're frustrated, where it's like, "Man, I should know better. How can I apply it in this context and not in this other one?" Not in the classic "Let me tell you how I was lost and then I was found" kind of thing. Again, you're not setting yourself up to be this-- You're just sharing life. You're just sharing things that worked, things that didn't, ideas, and then you let people take what they will from it. **Sonny:** That makes perfect sense. Just sharing those experiences. I guess probably the most important part then is just focusing on the skill and being the best that you can at the skill that you do. I guess the better you get at the skill, hey, maybe the more chance there is of people being able to pick up or learning other things from it, and probably yourself being able to learn other things from it. **Danielle:** If you're going to become a good teacher of a skill, that means you're going to have to be a good communicator. To be a good communicator, you're doing more than passing a skill, because that means you know how to read the people, because no two people have the same learning styles. That means that when you are working with somebody, you are able to tailor your teaching of that particular skill in a way with a tone that that person will respond. If you learn how to do that, you are learning something about life. Then you can also help somebody out in ways that are, again, more indirect. But because you have that ability, because again, a teacher is not just somebody who can perform a skill in amazing way. It doesn't necessarily make a good teacher. I've had experiences sometime where-- I know I can teach well things that I'm good at, but I've had very funny exp-- For example, my Jiu-Jitsu is pretty good. My judo kind of sucks, it's okay at best. It's not that great. But I've had days when I work with people on some judo stuff, and they are like, "Man, I learn more judo now than in the last six months." I'm like, "How is that possible because my judo really sucks? I'm barely hanging myself. How is it possible that--." Then I realized, and I'm like, "Oh, because I see these four guys in front of me who are way better than I am, but their communication is not the greatest." It's one of those that if you learn by watching, well, watch those guys because they can perform it in a way that's so much better than I could ever could. But if you learn in other ways, maybe then that's a different skill. That's not just the skill of being able to execute the move perfectly. There are other communication skills involved that somebody may respond to, but sometime we think-- Even in school, they don't teach you how-- You go to school, you get a Master and you get a Ph.D, that doesn't mean in any way that you are a good communicator. That just means that you know how to jump through the hoops to do the research or to do the whatever stuff. That is a completely different field from actually having that knowledge of being able to communicate it **\[unintelligible 00:29:24\]** Sometime we think that it's one and the same, it's not. Unless you work on communication, unless you work on yourself that way, that's not going to come through just because you know the technical skill. They are related parts. If your technical skill sucks, no matter what a good communicator you are, you're not going to do a good job. You need more than technical skill. By itself, the technical skill is not going to do it. You also need something beyond that, that communication side. **Sonny:** It's funny. It reminds me at university, there was one day they had a lecture on how important it is to engage a classroom and keep everyone's attention. The way they did that was the lady was reading bullet points off a PowerPoint about the importance of keeping everyone engaged, then I'm sitting here going, as anyone else, "What is going on here?" \[laughs\] **Danielle:** Yes, it's totally like that. Sometimes when I talk with-- I don't know if you listen to Dan Carlin who does *Hardcore History* podcast. He's a absolute genius in terms of communicating history. He has a BA.. That's it. There are like three gazillion people on earth who have more advanced degrees, who have done that more. That's why he's all like, "I'm not really a historian," but it's like, "Well, you're more of a historian than most. You are able to communicate history so much better than three zillion of these guys with their fancy titles." **Sonny:** Part of that I think has to be the way you can tell a story of whatever information you're trying to get across and weave it into some narrative, just to be able to get people's attention into it, and somehow just make it interesting too. Just finding out what that is. I find it so hard to just figure out how you can do that with a dense piece of information, or risk lock or something. There's that how do you bring that stuff to life. Do you have any ideas? **Danielle:** There are a lot of ways. None of them are "it". There are no the seven steps to become a great communicator. It's not that easy. And I think there are a bunch of things you can do, like reading books. I think reading helps a lot because it develops your mind in certain directions, kind of like *Game of Thrones* thing, right? Where there's a **\[unintelligible 00:31:59\]** look at me. What am I going to do? I'm not a warrior, I'm not the-- But I sharpen my mind through reading books. That's the skill I develop. Reading books is huge. Paying attention to people, engaging with people, communicate, making a skill of reading people. Seeing how people respond. Seeing if you use a certain tone it works with this person, but this person really doesn't respond to it. There are so many times that I see cases where I see a person A communicating, and I totally get where they are coming from. There's nothing wrong with what they are saying. But they lack the body language. The tone, the humor they are using is clearly not made to be received by person B. Person A is, "What's wrong with person B? Why can't they get it? I'm being nice." Personal B is, "This person is a jerk," and it's like you're both right. It's just that they are speaking different languages, and nobody's understanding that you need to switch the language if you want to be understood by person B. You cannot communicate with person B the same way you did with person C. It's a whole different game. That requires paying attention. **\[unintelligible 00:33:10\]** person. They're a bunch of things that are going to do it, but definitely paying attention is huge. **Sonny:** That paying attention to-- I find it hard to quantify that, but I know exactly what it means. You have to just be paying attention, and then just go from that, and then you can go from instincts. It's like pay attention to the data coming in, the scientific **\[unintelligible 00:33:33\]** and then just let that guide the instincts for however you're going to react somehow. However that can work. **Danielle:** That's really a tricky thing. It's like having all the skills that are human skills. It's like saying once we agree that, for example, using humor usually helps people relax and pay more attention eventually because they're having fun and all of that. That's great. But if you are not a funny person by nature, that doesn't help you. You can **\[unintelligible 00:34:04\]** thanks, but no. It works when somebody who is not funny tries to be funny. It's like, okay, forget it. Forget humor, that was a bad idea. It's hard because we all expect that there's this clear blueprint to acquire certain things. They are granted. There are certain things that are more likely to deliver good results than other, but they are far from guarantees. And some of it, unfortunately, is not very democratic, but that's the reality of it. That not everybody has the same talent for all the same things. Some people are going to pick-- I can work like a dog at the skill, and I'm never going to be as good as somebody else who has a natural talent for it and work on it on top of it. You can just improve and try to get better at it, but you're not going to create a skill out of thin air. **Sonny:** Just trying to improve and keep pushing that boundary forward and then eventually you'll be communicating better, getting that engagement, getting that attention, and also then communicating the skill better, and maybe imparting some other lessons that people can take away. **Danielle:** Yes, because what we are talking about is not just about martial arts, and it's not even just about teaching. It's about becoming just a good human being. **Sonny:** That's huge. \[laughs\] **Danielle:** It's not a simple answer. **Sonny:** That's not simple at all. **Danielle: \[inaudible 00:35:37\]** human being. I wish it was that easy though. **\[inaudible 00:35:41\].** **Sonny:** I wish it was that easy. I guess people have tried throughout history of writing down different ways that can be done, but maybe the way where we're going now is mixing that reading of books and taking that intellectual pursuit to gain that knowledge, gain that confidence, gain that broadening of ideas, and then mixing it with cage fighting. **Danielle:** Totally. I'm a big fan of a Yin-Yang approach to life. You need different things, even **\[unintelligible 00:36:23\].** If all you do is read books, you're going to be really good at communicating with people who are nerdy. They're not going to necessarily how to communicate-- Even if you have the intellectual understanding of what somebody who are coming from a completely different background is like, you don't have that life experience. You don't have that energy attached to you, so it's not going to work. I remember I had students in-- I teach in college, so I had students in my college classes who then would want to come train with me. We're hanging out, we're training. Suddenly they developed a whole different attitude to work because maybe some of these guys come from straight up from the ghetto. Where it's like, look, I like the stuff you say in the classroom. It's cool. It's interesting, but none of that stuff translate to my experience in the ghetto. It's like when I can punch you in the head and you just laugh it off and smile and take me down and choke me out, that speaks a language that I understand very well from **\[unintelligible 00:37:26\]** . More than one language that way that you can adapt is something that now that same person can listen to me blab along intellectually, and be 10 times more interested, because I gained credibility in their eyes, because I excelled at something that makes sense in their world. Similarly, it goes the other way around, right? It goes both ways. Most of life is made of different energies, and you want to try, if not to master at least to be decent at as many of them as possible. You want to be comfortable if you are talking with some professor in an Ivy League university, and if you are sitting in a room full of gangsters, you want to feel just as comfortable, right? Because you can switch the language easily from one to the-- You can relate to one, and you can relate to the other, and a lot of that is life experience. A lot of that is just being open to not just stick to one thing in your whole life. I hate it when- as much as I love martial arts, I can't stand where all the people I know in martial arts, all they can talk about is martial arts. Come on. Do you not get bored? I love it. I get it. I can nerd out with you forever, but there's more to life. It's like, can we talk about something else? I think we do ourselves a disservice when we turn our passion into an obsession, where that's the one and the only lens through which to see life. No, that's one lens. It's a lens I like. It's cool, I dig it, but there's so many other. Experienced a whole bunch of them, and then when you are at least conversational in these other languages. If not, of course, time is what it is. There are 24 hours in a day. You can't master everything. You're going to pick a few things they are going to focus on, but be at least decent at the many things. **Sonny:** I agree. That's probably what I'm at least trying to do myself. The one thing I sometimes think about that is the old saying "jack of all trades, master of none". It's like am I splitting myself too thin? Am I ever going to gain any authority in one realm if I don't focus all my attention into that? How can that crossover be a benefit? **Danielle:** I think there's a point where it's diminishing other thoughts. If you're trying to be the best in the world at one thing, you probably need to dedicate an hour **\[unintelligible 00:40:05\]**. The reality is that you can become really good in a much smaller amount of time. Let's say that you dedicate 50% of the time that somebody was obsessed with an activity **\[unintelligible 00:40:18\]** . You're going to be really amazing at that. Now, every 10% more that you dedicate, you're going to gain millimeters. If it's a game where you're competing with the best of the best, the millimeter makes all the difference. But if you just want to do it for life enrichment, even as a [teacher, let's say you do teach martial arts,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) and you gain enough ability to be-- You're a black belt in jujitsu, you're a black belt in whatever it is, you have the technical skill, it takes time, it takes energy. But there's a point where if all you do is keep going down that path, because I want to be the greatest black belt there is. It's like now you're losing a ton of time that could be put in other fields so that you could be good at six things, really good at two, and maybe you're not the number one person in the world at any of them. **\[unintelligible 00:41:11\]** extremely complete human being. You have a lot to your personality. You have a lot. People who know you for that one thing suddenly discover this other side of you and are like, "Wow." That's so much more interesting if all there is to you is, you're the god of that one particular field. It's like, if you want-- Again, it works in sports. When you want to be the absolute best and that's your goal, that's a different story. It's probably a good idea if you're going to get heart surgery. I don't care if my heart surgeon is a fool. \[laughter\] I wanted to do it in their sleep. That's what, but other than those things, most of life, you can get really good at something but then there's a point where for their time invested into that skill, what you gain is so small. That same amount of time could have been spent elsewhere and you would have gotten to a level where you're decent at it. You're pretty good at it. **Sonny:** I agree with and I've thought about that a few times for the idea that if you're an Olympic athlete, you're going for the gold medal, you have to do things to achieve that goal that are going to be detrimental to your health, in long-term health, detrimental to other parts of your life. There's going to be a lot of negative side effects to achieve that gold medal and that's just the way it is and if you decide to make that your goal, you have to take that responsibility on and the competition for that too. There's no guarantee that that's ever going to-- \[laughing\] There's no guarantees, that's ever going to happen. **Danielle: \[inaudible 00:42:53\]** and your entire career trajectory is gone. **Sonny:** One day. \[laughing\] You ate a bad breakfast that morning and maybe that throws it off. It's a big risk and I salute those people who take it but if you are trying to mix a few different skill pursuits together and get it at good level for all of those, you can actually find yourself in a situation that you've created a unique skill set or unique combination of things that maybe you could be the best at that. Maybe, maybe not, or just some level of a unique skill set and depth about you. **Danielle:** Absolutely and I think that's what makes you you. You're able to do these four, five, six, whatever many things fairly well in a way that allows you to become a more complete human being, which for the point of view of just mental and physical health and relating to other people is way more valuable than becoming the one guy that feel. The one guy, the specialist is usually not the most fun human being to be around because all they can talk about is that one thing. All they know about is that one thing. It doesn't translate to a life skill. It translate to just that one field and it's like-- I don't know, I feel like there's so much more to life to it that it's what you were saying about the Olympic athletes. It's really become detrimental to your overall well being. **Sonny:** With that detrimental thing to our well being, if we're taking the pursuit of being that number one, what do you think is it with the martial arts, particularly the modern martial arts? We go into it knowing that, maybe not even going into it but eventually, everyone's going to experience some kind of injury probably. People could get lucky and it's maybe the role of the teacher to minimize the risk of injury, but that's going to happen. There's going to be that detrimental side effects, and then, can we not just take a more softer approach, and does that just lead itself to falling over when we come up to against any real test of the abilities? **Danielle:** Well, and I think that's where there's a line. It's a balance. It's he's **\[unintelligible 00:45:29\]** hard all the time, you're going to get brain damage. Queasy all the time, is completely not realistic and the first time you take a real punch, you're completely shocked and can't handle it. You want to find probably around the side of safety, you want more on the soft than the hard, but you need to add a little bit of the health experience in a controlled fashion. Just something that give you that edge. I think that's the important thing, it's fine. That balance is not the same for everybody. If you are 18 years old, and you heal from injuries really fast, you can push a little harder. If you are some 50-year-old guy, you have to tailor that balance in a different direction. We all do it because everybody's body's fragile to one degree or another, but that exact spot changes in life, changes from one person to the next. I know a lot of people, for example, I'm 46 now and generally speaking, the people who are good at Judo, they do it from when they are kids because you take so much damage getting thrown that nobody wants to learn Judo in their 40s. You're already good by that point. You're not going to ever become the best at it. You're not going to win the Olympics. You're not going to do any of that but so many will never train because it's taught in a way that just too hard. That is built to teach 15-year-old kids, not to teach people who are adults, who start when they are in their 30s or 40s or 50s, but can you teach it in a way where these people will still learn something valuable? Yes, you can. You can switch it around rather than doing hard randori all the time where people slam each other, you can do more of a playful randori, where you're doing a lot of entries. If I am balanced when they set you up for the sweep, and you are right there and I'm holding, I don't even need to take you down at that point. It's like both you and I know that I had it, that he was there. Now once in a while, we go a little harder and will do go for the full take-down, but a bunch of times, rather than having to get thrown 300 times a night, you get thrown five times a night and suddenly, you learn a lot of skills that sure, the guy who's getting thrown 300 times and going at that level of intensity probably learns more stuff if they don't break down. \[chuckles\] Probably is like, "Great. That was realistic" and you learned all this stuff but now three years later, you can no longer practice. Who's going to get better? The guy who practice a little more mellow for the next 20 years or the guy who push hard and destroy their body? **Sonny:** I know what you mean and I think that's a good point for talking about how to keep people engaged, knowing what would be the best way to tailor training of martial arts to the different body types and ages and whatever their goals will be. That's probably the most important thing about being able to keep someone engaged and learn whatever it is you're trying to impart is by making sure they keep showing up on the mats and don't just decide to quit. **Danielle: \[unintelligible 00:48:33\]** because that's huge, right? It's like, I realized, I'm not going to be able to do certain things, and that's okay, but I can still get decent, I can still learn some stuff. I can have fun. I can. Why not? That's a good goal. I'm down with that. Again, it's not the Olympic athlete goal, but it's a goal that works for my life. That means me healthy, that adds elements to my life. If the only choices are train like a madman or don't train at all, those are not great choices. The person who can afford to train a madman, they are few and far between, and more likely than not, they are not going to be able to do it for in their entire life. **Sonny:** I agree with that and makes me think about the rolling of competition because I know there's a saying of something along the lines of, once in your life you should train as if your life depended on it or, as hard as you ever train before. I get where that's coming from. I feel like everyone-- You should compete at least once in jujitsu, which has a relatively low risk of injury, but I understand it's not for everyone too and if your job involves you-- If an injury happened and you lost your job and everything would be thrown into chaos, I get it. **Danielle:** You train very differently and that's fine. Again, it's not a bad thing. There are limits to what you can do and that's okay. **Sonny:** What do you think they could be missing out by never competing or what's that extra benefit of pushing yourself that one time to get into a competition that-- Can you learn that elsewhere or can that only be learned in competition? **Danielle:** Some of the stuff are competition, it's hard to replicate **\[unintelligible 00:50:16\]** The reality is that people are going to go way higher there in a way that when you have never experienced it, it's very hard to even imagine. The first time people compete is like, first they don't know what it's to be under the level of pressure. They may be gods in the gym, but now, suddenly, they feel they wake up in the morning and their heart is racing, it's hard to breathe, and their muscles are tensing up and they're like, "What? Why? What's going on? I've never--" You experience that mental state of it. The fear. This time, you're not going to experience when you're on the mat with your friend rolling easy. That just not, but in some way, it's fun not to experience those things, because it's not a great state to be. For the next three days, I'm just going to be mostly in fear and anxiety. It's like, "Yes, let me sign up for that. That sounds so fun." \[laughter\] **Danielle: \[unintelligible 00:51:12\]** right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Danielle:** No, you don't want to do that all the time, but as an experience, it's something that mainly allows you to learn how to deal with fear and anxiety a little bit better. Maybe. Often it does and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you reinforce with fear and anxiety because you're afraid, you're anxious you go out there, you get squashed. You're more traumatised about it you never want to do it again. It's worse than if you never did it. It'd have been better for you not to do it at all. The idea you do it with enough wisdom or where you compete, who you compete against, all of that. You learn that. You get that experience but in a way that allows you to thrive. Maybe you don't win but you still feel good about it. You feel, "I dealt with it. I felt that anxiety and I was able to step up and perform at my best." **Sonny:** That's pretty much what I experience every time I enter a competition. I enjoy competition myself and I try entering as much as I can. I understand that's just me, but man, entering and it's fine, but the morning of the competition I'm always like, "Why did I do this? I could be out somewhere. It's a sunny day outside. I could be doing anything else. Sit at the beach, go on and see a movie, kicking back, having a good time. Instead I'm driving to a gym in the middle of somewhere where some guy is going to try and break my arm and sweat all over me and it's going to be really uncomfortable. What on earth am I thinking?" Then always, when it's done, win, lose, or draw, whatever happens I'm like, "Ah." It's a sense of relief and I'm glad I did that. That was fun. That was enjoyable, it was a good experience. I still after all these years, I don't know why that is. \[laughs\] How that happens, why I keep doing it, I don't know. **Danielle:** What is it you like about the competition then? If you do feel that stuff, you do feel like, "This sucks." What is it that makes you want to do it? **Sonny:** I really don't know because it's that something because probably if I didn't get that fear, I don't think I'd like it as much. It's something, that relief afterwards of, "It wasn't so bad." \[laughs\] That "Aha, that was good, that was fun. It wasn't--" Maybe it's probably anyone I can have negative thoughts about what's going to happen in the world and I can get entrapped into ways of thinking about, "Oh, this is going to go wrong in my life. This is going to go bad in my life and something is going to come and hit me one day. Everything is going to turn to chaos." You get trapped in those thought patterns. \[laughs\] Even thinking about it, I can start thinking of examples that I can go back to. When I enter in those competitions, I guess some of that-- There's a tangible example of I'm having bad thoughts about things that could happen on this specific day at this specific time in this specific match. Are these thoughts real? The last competition I had, I was coming back from injury. I had minuscule surgery on my knee at the start of the year and I really wanted to compete by the end of the year just to say I overcame that injury. At the morning of, I was like, "What am I thinking because I haven't given it enough time? I'm going to reinjure this knee for sure. Let me just tape it up as much as I can because--" By the time I got to the venue I was thinking, "For sure, there is no way I was getting out of this without re-injuring my knee." I just had-- All the negative thoughts were filled in me. That's my prediction of the world I guess. My prediction is, "I'm going here today and I'm going to stuff up my knee again. Well, can't change anything about that, too late." Of course, I go in the match, didn't go my way but the knee was fine. I was wrong. Great. Those negative thoughts weren't re-- Those negative thoughts weren't real. What a relief. Every negative thought I have isn't going to come true, brilliant. Thanks so much. That gives me a-- I, don't know that's the motivation to know the good things will come true sometimes too and not all the negatives will come true. Let's go with that. **Danielle:** There's something about dealing with fear that people who never ever have to be with fear or unpleasant scenes, the day when those scenes show up in their lives they're completely unprepared for that. If you have had at least a little bit of ritualized experience, like a martial art competition, it certainly helps. It help to deal with that because otherwise, it is a crashing thing. Fear is **\[unintelligible 00:56:19\]** and caution. **Sonny:** It's something that-- I think a hard thing is then balancing that fear. I know it's popular just to be we only need positive thinking about that. Banish all fear. **Danielle:** Well, good luck. You can want to banish it all you want but it's going to show up. The other guy across the cage wants to take your head off. You could have thought positive all you want, but it's just like, bam, three out. This is not just about what I think, this is about these people who's coming to kill me. **Sonny:** I remember one time I even did that with training where I was thinking, you know what, it's just my mindset that why I'm getting smashed in this role against this person. It was just in my head if I go in there and I just think confident thoughts, "I know I'm beating this guy today. There's nothing that's going to change it" then that's the thing and then the same thing happened, of course. \[laughs\] The thoughts, maybe they helped a bit. **Danielle:** They have for sure. It's better than **\[inaudible 00:57:28\]** Again, those things are not wrong but they're inches. It can improve your game a few inches, it's not going to throw in-- Just because I think positive, I'm not going to beat the best in the world tomorrow if anything. It's just going to be-- it's super interesting. It is important to develop those aspects without becoming dogmatic about it where you think that that's the solution **\[unintelligible 00:57:53\]** because **\[unintelligible 00:57:54\]** **Sonny:** That's where I know the danger is and you don't want to have that delusional confidence that it's not based on anything. At least with the martial arts, I can get that test. I can get that. Is my confidence warranted? Yes or no. **Danielle:** That's **\[inaudible 00:58:11\]** **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I know. Exactly, it's a firm gauge of my positive and negative thoughts. The confidence and fear. What's my ability to judge this accurately? Let's go have a look. **Danielle:** Absolutely. That's exactly how it is. It's funny how we forget how much of the game is mental because martial art is about fear. It's different if it was some other sport. You have the fear, there's performance anxiety for sure. You can have performance anxiety about anything. It's like when people are afraid to give public speech because it's you making sound with your mouth. I understand there's fear that can come from self-esteem, from how people are going to judge you but objectively there's nothing to be afraid of. In martial art, objectively, there is- \[laughter\] It's not just me doing my thing, it's this person who's going to try to slam me. They've trained the **\[inaudible 00:59:10\]** last years to become more assertive and destroy me. I can see how that will **\[inaudible 00:59:14\]** anxiety in **\[unintelligible 00:59:15\]** **Sonny:** \[laughs\] It's funny, but yes, without a doubt, you've got something to worry about. \[laughs\] **Danielle:** \[inaudible 00:59:26\] I've seen it sometime. What's funny is that the same person who can be amazing one day can drown the next man. It's like they can be mentally perfect in one occasion and in the next one they're just not there. It's so weird to see because it's like, "Wait, you did it perfectly the last time, what changed this time?" There are so many little factors that can make or break you mentally. Nobody is just mentally invincible and nobody is mentally such crap that they're going to fail every time. There's a possibility for everybody to rise above and to sink below. Clearly, the better you've got at it and the more you have done it, the more the odds are you're going to stay in a certain range, but there's **\[inaudible 01:00:12\]** is different. **Sonny:** There's that reaching of potential. I guess that taking it back to the beginning, that's probably one of our types of-- That's one of the mythological things of martial arts over anything else is that you could potentially reach your potential with this. \[laughs\] **Danielle:** On a good day it's like that, next day, maybe not so much. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That firm line in the sand, that's important. You can't get that through everything for sure, but you're definitely going to get it with this. **Danielle:** I think if I remember correctly it was **\[unintelligible 01:00:58\]** Jackson who said it. Who said that, "Everybody can be broken. The point of training is to bring the line which will be broken so far that the other person is not going to be able to push you there likely." It’s not that that line doesn’t exist anymore, you still have it. If you apply enough pressure, everybody breaks. **Sonny:** That’s it. That's right. **Danielle:** It’s to push the line so far that we are going to be able to discover it and push you there. It’s not **\[unintelligible 01:01:28\]** there is no such thing. **Sonny:** That’s so true. I think it’s our own general kind of quote. Maybe you never know what quotes you read online, if the person said it or not. I’m not trying to be better than someone else. I’m just trying to be better than yesterday. **Danielle:** Yes, definitely. That’s all you can do. That's **\[inaudible 01:01:53\]** is a whole other-- All you can control is yourself ultimately. You don’t control opponents, you don’t control how well they’re going to perform, you don’t control any of that. That’s why I even like focusing on new victory. **\[unintelligible 01:02:07\]** it's more **\[unintelligible 01:02:07\]** All you got to focus on is just going out there and doing the best job you can, putting everything on the line. That you do have under control. You can control that aspect. If I go out there, I put everything on the line, I do the best job, and I fight somebody who’s 100 pounds heavier than me and they are the greatest heavyweight of all time, \[laughing\] I’d still feel like **\[unintelligible 01:02:30\]** That I can control. Again, all you control is your mental attitude and what you bring to the table. That’s it. **Sonny:** Danielle, thanks so much. What a great conversation that I’ve enjoyed having with you. **Danielle:** Thank you so much. It was definitely a lot of fun. **Sonny:** Like I said, I’ve been a fan of your work. When I saw you comment on something of mine, I was very happy, let’s just say. \[chuckles\] I was like, "Wow." **Danielle:** I was watching your videos and I’m like, “Oh man, I love his videos. They’re such great, great balance.” I dig down **\[unintelligible 01:03:07\]** there were commented on it and you responded, “Hey, I really like your book.” I was like, “Oh, perfect.” It’s so great. It works nice that way. **Sonny:** It was very cool. I'll just say that. I'm very, very happy. If people want to get in touch with you, what the best way they can get- \[sound cut\] ## Daniele Bolelli Resources ![Daniele Bolelli On Teaching Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/DanieleBolelli_tsbb_promo.jpg "DanieleBolelli_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Chris Brennan On Initiating No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu for the Next Generation of Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-brennan-next-generation-mma-nogi-jiujitsu/) **Published:** May 12, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Chris Brennan MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/chris_brennan_mma-1024x576.jpg "chris_brennan_mma › Sonny Brown")I talk to Chris Brennan who is an MMA Hall of Famer, fighting in Pride, UFC, Shooto, Cage Rage and King Of The Cage veteran, and a 3-time No-Gi world champion and ADCC veteran. But perhaps it might not be well known that he started the first No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu school in America back in 1998 after leaving the Gracie Academy. We discuss what the Gracie Academy and the change to No-Gi were like and how he learned to train his students while competing in MMA. We also discuss how he has taken those lessons and passed them on to his sons to help their [MMA ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/leg-locking-in-the-mma-meta-elegant-leg-entanglements-for-vale-tudo-with-robert-degle/ "Leg Locking in the MMA Meta & Elegant Leg Entanglements for Vale Tudo With Robert Degle")& grappling careers. Also, he shares some stories of backstage shenanigans with the Pride referees and the time that Genki Sudo came to town and competed in the Westside Submission Grappling tournament, one of the most viewed Jiu-Jitsu highlight videos around. ## LISTEN TO CHRIS BRENNAN Website: [https://bit.ly/2RfdU5X](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2RfdU5X%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3ZJvYqIl69sPLAeW1bEFZhWkZlBZX44BV3xXJ3RlUjyuRWUME2Xjo5T8c&h=AT0cYLE2g3h4ZzPw9BZKXi3nIhzQO1VPj13nzjjP7sKThlE4lWYQojC0T61IcMS-eTX1QdXQJQNFzeCByaZ8YntCpRP079MaRC26wVt1_wJvAzHWEV67HqvJMHm45fVYdg&__tn__=-UK-R&c%5B0%5D=AT1ZqFjjzC2gIvP0oeleKDfV4LqypcIKhQ5aCzzgkMCyg359JmaKqYGf_ik3yXF1fc27lxjgmMRKuAGvKTtGB3LEj0M4HbBWBAB9rhrOiZG5N3d3m7xPkyHOkIuMmSH2FljdsMLIT59i8Yfr_ryGd8jXWvQhDoyAHKhW5OKhG1LJyYuvBEYDsXHBFA) Apple: [https://apple.co/3y1RGoB](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.co%2F3y1RGoB%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1u_Y9goPyqOzGHU-ZGukXpTnO3mDyk0GMFAwLE2Rjx4asBZY1q-ZgyLg8&h=AT0AgYCgmE_KVZhF2Mb4JyDNqM_XUBdYD8V1obqZlTIWWGPBBD4AOsnFjZMgkOgSMtP9kxsi-TtJKOfZwdfhn9wc_ZriOZX55E8bKqfNObWb48BBRL3IWRXaJW09-nHorg&__tn__=-UK-R&c%5B0%5D=AT1ZqFjjzC2gIvP0oeleKDfV4LqypcIKhQ5aCzzgkMCyg359JmaKqYGf_ik3yXF1fc27lxjgmMRKuAGvKTtGB3LEj0M4HbBWBAB9rhrOiZG5N3d3m7xPkyHOkIuMmSH2FljdsMLIT59i8Yfr_ryGd8jXWvQhDoyAHKhW5OKhG1LJyYuvBEYDsXHBFA) Spotify: [https://spoti.fi/3bjKFG4](https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fspoti.fi%2F3bjKFG4%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1u_Y9goPyqOzGHU-ZGukXpTnO3mDyk0GMFAwLE2Rjx4asBZY1q-ZgyLg8&h=AT1uVO4Q8p4uzPpTOcJY4GyQx-Jj1JoJ55hXWFlR3TkeKn-Kx2nSkATcFxK_gaMy373VD4dcERpJc_GEAlIj9cmJKRF_i_XAnI3c3t7EMKw7TgNNxt5MhyYRuqtPcdkYLw&__tn__=-UK-R&c%5B0%5D=AT1ZqFjjzC2gIvP0oeleKDfV4LqypcIKhQ5aCzzgkMCyg359JmaKqYGf_ik3yXF1fc27lxjgmMRKuAGvKTtGB3LEj0M4HbBWBAB9rhrOiZG5N3d3m7xPkyHOkIuMmSH2FljdsMLIT59i8Yfr_ryGd8jXWvQhDoyAHKhW5OKhG1LJyYuvBEYDsXHBFA) ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### The early development of No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu in America Chris reflects on training at the Gracie Academy, spending extended time in Brazil and then opening what he describes as the first dedicated No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu school in America in 1998. The episode captures a period when No-Gi grappling was still closely tied to MMA rather than treated as its own sport. ### Learning to coach while actively competing Chris discusses developing students while he was still fighting across organisations such as UFC, PRIDE, Shooto and King of the Cage. His coaching grew from the practical demands of preparing athletes for both grappling and mixed martial arts. ### Passing the system to the next generation The conversation looks at how Chris has passed his approach to his sons and younger athletes, including the balance between giving them structure and allowing them to develop their own games through competition and experience. ### Stories from early MMA and submission grappling Chris also shares stories from the early professional MMA scene, including PRIDE, refereeing culture and the Westside Submission Grappling events that helped shape the emerging No-Gi grappling scene. ## Key Takeaways - Early No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu in the US developed in close contact with MMA. - Chris Brennan’s coaching system grew from the practical demands of preparing fighters and grapplers. - Passing knowledge to the next generation requires both structure and room for individual development. - The early submission-grappling scene evolved through experimentation, competition and cross-training. ## Resources - [Next Generation MMA](https://nextgenerationmma.com/) - [Chris Brennan on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/chris_brennan_3x_champ/) - [Chris Brennan and the history of Next Generation MMA](https://nextgenerationmma.com/about-us/) ### Podcast Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Chris, how are you doing there, mate? **Chris Brennan:** Awesome, man. Thank you very much. How are you? **Sonny:** I'm doing well. Thanks so much for joining me, and it is an honor to have such a veteran of both Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA to be able to talk to. **Chris:** Thank you. **Sonny:** I mean, competing in all the top organizations, UFC, PRIDE, Shooto, Cage Rage, King of the Cage where you were the championship, and fighting the best guys in those organizations as well. Along with competing in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the No-Gi Black Belt World Championships, then what I really want to get into is the creation of your own gym, which was the first No-Gi Grappling School in America. I actually didn't know that initially. I might assume that many others, when they think No-Gi Grappling in America, they go to Eddie Bravo. We have a mutual friend in Dennis Kelly who lived and trained with you. He let me know, and I was fascinated to learn that. I just want to go back to the start with you, with you're obviously watching UFC 1 while you are bouncing, I do believe, with Kimo and Todd Medina, earlier with Siver as well. That would, I guess, led you to the Gracie School. What was it like that first day going in there? How did that experience unfold? **Chris:** It was cool. I actually went to another guy first, trained with Ken Gabrielson in his garage. Then I found Royce. I didn't know Royce was in the area. I just watched the first UFC and didn't know he was in the area. Find out he was in the area and I went directly there, kind of wanted to go to the stores at the time. I train there for a little bit. I actually sold my car, packed for double bags and flew to Brazil. I had 10,000, I expected to stay for a month, month and half, whatever, take as many privates as I could and train I need. Well, one US dollar was seven riyal at the time. I basically had 70,000. I stayed for a year and took lots and lots of privates, trained everyday, multiple times a day. I got good, but when I came home, it's when I really got to the following year kind of everything I learned over that year, I'd learn so much, and it was kind of overloaded and took notes and videos and lots of stuff. Then I brought a friend back with me who came back just short time after I did and stayed and I trained with him in my garage in California for a year, year and a half. That was kind of the real growth spot for me. I went back to the Gracie Academy and trained. I was a blue belt at the Gracie Academy. They taught at a very-- you want me to jump in to the Gracie Academy thing already or not yet? **Sonny:** Yes, sure. **Chris:** There's a lot to talk about. **Sonny:** When you went to Brazil, you hadn't gone to the Gracie Academy yet? **Chris:** I had gone there for a short time, and I really wanted to fight. My goal was to fight. I already got the vibe from Rorian and at the time that Royce was the going to be the only fighter in the building. I liked Royce. Me and him vibed really well from the very beginning. I was one of the guys with balls in the class that will be like, "Who hit you the hardest? Who has the toughest fight?" I had all the questions that no one wanted to asked him. It was cool. I was there for a short time, and then I went to Brazil. I trained at Alliance, which was master jiu-jitsu at the time, Jacare, Romero Cavalcanti. I train at his gym. Man, Leo Vieira was a brown belt, Comprido was a purple belt, Ricardo Vieira was a yellow belt. Fabio Gurgel was there still in Rio. I hadn't gone to Sao Paulo yet, which is where Marcelo started with him. It was way before everything. I just had an awesome, awesome experience. Me and Leo Vieira were like everyday trained together. My buddy, Roger Brooke, who is the guy that I brought back with, and he was a brown belt. I just had a lot of really cool experiences down there. **Sonny:** Going back from spending that you're in the Brazil, heading back to the USA, then I guess going back to the Gracie Academy, what were the differences in how [jiu-jitsu was being taught to the students](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) at the time? **Chris:** Oh, so super different. The Gracie's taught-- they would teach you one way for a certain amount of time. For example, they would teach you how to pass the guard by putting your hand on the bicep on one side and reaching your hand between the legs on the other, and then stacking them and passing. There was no such thing as a triangle yet because they hadn't taught you that. You're doing that for months, and then you move on to the intermediate class and you don't want to pass that way anymore because the triangle, you did do it like this. Basically just created six months of bad habits, now I have to break. I love teaching anything. I used to teach my brothers how to tie their shoes, how to ride a bike. I enjoyed teaching. As someone who enjoyed teaching, right off the bat I'm like, "This is wrong. You shouldn't have to teach anything and then unteach it to teach it a different way." That's what they did. It was just some money-making long process thing. After a little bit, it got exposed. I left the Gracie Academy, to go back just a little bit. I'm training there. I'm going through the instructor program. Me and Marc Laimon lived in a hotel room together. We lived in the days in, and we took all the furniture out, mat at the living room and just trained there everyday, but we were also in the instructor program at the academy. We're paying 600 bucks a month to be in this program where we have to be there basically 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM with a break in the middle, and clean the toilet, clean the showers, clean the mats, assisting all the classes. It was good. It was good for me because I have been coming from a kind of a very undisciplined background. I was a jackass as a kid. It was good for me discipline-wise, for sure. The problem was we weren't getting the reciprocation. They weren't teaching us the way we should have been getting taught. My goal from day one was to fight. I saw the UFC, I want to fight. I went to learn jiu-jitsu to fight. I end up getting a fight with Pat Miletich. I had a couple of small fights in between, but I end up getting booked to fight Pat Miletich in Battlecade Extreme Fighting. That was a John Freddy's baby. That end up folding, and the fight didn't happen, and then Monte Cox, his past manager, hit me up and said, "Hey, would you like to fight Pat in our event, extreme challenge." I said, "Yes. Absolutely." I get booked to fight with Pat, and Rorian calls me in his office one day and says, "Hey, I heard you have a fight coming up," and I said, "Yes." He goes, "Yes, you can't fight and be out of here," and I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, is our name on anything? Is our name on? Are they advertising you as a fighter out of here? " I was like, "No." He said, "Do they know you train here?" I said, "I'm pretty sure they do. I mean, I'm really the only person that fights or that wants to fight, and out of the gym, so I'm sure they know where I train, but that's all." He says, "I need to see a copy of the contract." I was like, "Man, I don't even have a contract." Back then, it was a small organization. He may have sent me a paper one day to sign, but at that point, I hadn't had it yet. He's concerned that they're building me up as a Gracie Jiu Jitsu fighter. Well, long story short, I come back to him and I was like, "Listen, I don't have this. They're not building me as this, but I'm going to fight. That's my goal in the first place. We can do challenge matches here in the gym for you, but I can't make money fighting out there for myself," and his answer was basically no. Me, Mark Layman, Lola Anderson, Ethan Milliyes, and I believe my friend, Richard Bressler also came, and then a guy, Abvi. Abvi is a Jewish guy, who's got a shitload of money, and he was training at the Gracie Academy. He said, "Let's go open a gym together," and I was like," Seriously?" We literally left the Gracie Academy and drove to Beverly Hills, and he found a building and we opened Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu. Where my motivation came is on the way out the door, I'm having a conversation with a guy named Sam Ranch, who was the manager of the Gracie Academy, and he said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "Well, at some point, I'm going to open up a gym." He goes, " \[laughs\] Chris Brennan Jiu Jitsu, fuck Me. Who's going to come?" I said, "Well, we'll find out." When I left there, man, that was all I ever needed. I needed somebody to tell me I couldn't do it, so that I could. That was the end of it for me. I didn't put a Gi on, from blue belt on. I only trained at Beverly Hills for a little while, and then I bounced around Hicks and had a guy down the Regal where my parents lived, named Mark Ecker and Dave Comma. They were both phenomenal, and I trained with them off and on. Then finally I started teaching out of my garage because at the time, I was a good blue belt, and I was teaching No-Gi, which is what I wanted to do, and I really studied the last few months that I was at the Gracie Academy. I really studied how they taught, and they taught really well. They taught their techniques, their details very well. They just didn't teach you a lot. It was hard, but I got a lot of it-- how the attention to detail down really well. Rorian was a good teacher. He's an attorney, so he speaks really well. \[chuckles\]. I ended up teaching out of my garage, and I grew to 30 or 40 students. I opened a gym, and I got my first fight in UFC. I fought in UFC-- actually, sorry. I got my first fight in UFC, training out of my garage. **Sonny:** Wow. **Chris:** Then I fought in the UFC. I took the money that I got and came home and opened my gym. That gym lasted about eight or nine months, and it closed because I was way ahead of the time. I didn't have Joe Rogan on TV talking about me \[laughs\] and my jiu-jistsu. I went back to my garage, built up to about 60 students, moved into another building, and from that point, it's just been phenomenal since beginning of '98. **Sonny:** Yes, an amazing time around that time with so much going on. When you have started teaching the students coming through the door at your new place, obviously you said the attention to detail as a way of-- at Gracie Academy, that they were very good at. Was there any other things that you could see the benefit in, or just things that they were doing that you really liked in terms of potentially student retention, business-wise, things like that, of how they were running things? **Chris:** I mean, they obviously killed it business-wise. They had a ton of students at the time. Royce was fighting in UFC. Everyone wanted to be the skinny guy that was beating all the big guys in the UFC. That was basically their business card. That's why they used Royce in the first place. As far as student retention goes, in my opinion, it worked for a little while, just having it-- it was the most effective style, but then you have guys like Machado right down the road who are teaching and producing better guys. Then Rorian brought in Kaiki, and Kaiki was an awesome teacher, and he was showing all the good stuff, and Rorian would literally come in and tell him he couldn't show that, and he would get basically lectured for showing that. Shortly after the time, we all left. He left and started doing his own thing. They ended up-- and I don't know how the Gracies got talked into this because they had to have known how they were teaching, but they did Machado versus Gracie school tournament, and the Gracies got their asses kicked, the students of the Gracie Academy got their kicked. There were a handful of good guys. You're going to get good at [jiu-jitsu if you train](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) jiu-jitsu, but there were much higher percentage of high-level grappler at the Machado gym at that time. Then Kaiki did the same thing. When Kaiki left, a lot of the high level students left with him. **Sonny:** Do you think it was then the drip fading of techniques that they were doing to potentially keep people interested or keep them always wanting to see what the next one might be, as opposed to- **Chris:** Sure. **Sonny:** -I assume then the Machados, were just showing all the latest stuff, maybe, for lack of a better term, or just showing more things? Do you think that that's what was causing the difference there? **Chris:** Yes, I mean, at the time, I don't know what there was, it was the latest or the whatever. There wasn't a lot of evolution for a handful of years, to be honest, and there really didn't need to be evolution to us because they've been doing it so long, there was already so much to show us. They were just doing it at such a slow pace that it really started to hinder people, and people wanted to compete. They didn't even like you to compete outside the gym. You could only do in-house tournaments, and I can tell you why, \[laughs\] because they weren't going to do very good. Yes, I mean, teaching slow is one thing that are holding back techniques and giving it one way and then having to change it to another way and things like that, that's not good, and I don't think it's good for business either. I don't know that they've changed that ever. Hopefully they did. I opened my gym and I was-- I didn't have a coach. I didn't watch instructionals. I knew I didn't want to put the Gi on, and I knew no one else was training Jiu jitsu without the Gi full time. Teaching the full-time. I literally got my students, Jeremy Williams, Tracy **\[unintelligible 00:18:14\]**, Eric Victor, and I trained these guys as good and as fast as I possibly could to create training partners for myself, and to get them-- I showed everything at the highest level that I knew at the time, and this continued to evolve that way and evolve that way and evolve that way, and continued to get better and better. My style, in my opinion, got to be so good because it was basically trial by error. Trial by fire. I would train it, I would fight, and what worked, I would keep and develop more, and what didn't, I wouldn't. I ended up with some losses because of it, but I also ended up with some really high quality-- really good wins and with really cool submissions and in, I think in 21 wins, I got 19 submissions, and 18 of them in the first round. **Sonny:** Pretty good. **Chris:** Yes. It showed my style. That's what I wanted to do. I found out what worked, what didn't by actually trying it in the cage. **Sonny:** Well, that's it. There's no substitute for getting that real experience and putting it all on the line. I imagine, though, there must have been a lot of push back when you said you were going to do No Gi and do a No Gi only school. The common one that we still hear today is that training in the Gi makes you know Gi better, but that's-- I mean, I say we still hear it today, but it's pretty much been disproven now over time with the No Gi guys. **Chris:** Sure. **Sonny:** What was that like, the scrutiny on you from the community for taking the Gi off? **Chris:** I was blackballed for a long time. No one wanted to promote me. No one wanted to let me train there unless I train the Gi. I wasn't doing jiu-jitsu, but I'm beating guys. I'm like, "Okay. I am sure you would like to take the credit for my win by submission using jiu-jitsu even though you don't want to call it jiu-jitsu." I was a blue belt for four years, but I was hitting helicopter armbars on Fabiano Iha in Marc Ruas's garage as a blue belt, but no one was going to be the guy to promote me unless I put the Gi on. That's where Franjinha came in and helped me out. He was somebody that I met in Brazil who ended up being back in the United States with Paragon. From that point on, he's promoted me. He's put all the stripes and stuff on my black belt and everything. For the longest time, I couldn't get anything promotion-wise. Literally maybe four years ago, three years ago, my kids are competing in a tournament, and they're destroying other kids. This dude, Alex Martin, who has a gym here in Dallas says, "Man, they're so technical. Who teaches them jiu-jitsu?" I looked at him and I was like, "What?" He goes, "Who teaches jiu-jitsu at your gym?" I said, "I do." He goes, "You train Gi?" I said, "No." He goes, "Yes, who trains the Gi?" I said, "They've never put a Gi on before." He said, "How did they get so technical?" I said, "Because it's a myth, bro. You don't have to put the Gi on to get good at jiu-jitsu." He was just like, "Huh." I think he was just trying to pump me by saying it. I knew he knew I didn't train Gi. I knew he knew I was the coach. I never, never got the credit for anything. My third World's, I'm in the finals of World's a third year. I got a guy, Paulo Guillobel, who's a fifth-degree from Saulo, and he's in the finals. I had won the first two years, and he shows up to finals day and he says, "Hey, man, thanks for showing up." I go, "What?" He goes, "Thanks for showing up." I was like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I wasn't sure if you'd be here." I was like, "Why wouldn't I be here? I won the last two years in a row?" \[chuckles\] He goes, "You know. Yes. I don't know. Thanks." I beat him, and he's standing there at the podium. He goes, "Man, I really underestimated you. I didn't think you're that good." I said, "I didn't underestimate you. I knew you were good. That's why I was prepared." Three years in a row, won every match but one by submission. It doesn't matter. 21 subs or 19 subs in MMA just never got the credit for-- I didn't blow it up. I didn't try to promote it too crazy. I just wanted to promote my gym and train and build good guys. That's what I did. I wasn't butt hurt about it. I do speak up sometimes when they talk about Eddie being the first. He definitely wasn't that. I tried to get a match with him, to be honest, right after his last match with Royler. It was declined, but I think I approached it too aggressively. \[laughter\] Eddie's good. He's very good. He's very good at his stuff. Stylistically, I am a terrible matchup for him. The way I pass. His go-to position from the bottom, is my go-to position to kill people from the top. I just wanted it, so I message Ralek who was matchmaking for Metamoris. I said, "Hey. Set up a match with me and Eddie." I said, "Promote it as the original no-Gi guy versus the guy that gets credit for being the original no-Gi guy." I said, "If I don't tap him in five minutes, he can have whatever it is you're going to pay me. You don't even have to tell me what that is, but whatever my purse is, he can have it if I don't catch in five minutes." He was so excited. He goes, "I'll get back to you." He comes back to me, he goes, "Yes. He's not going to compete anymore, he said." I was like, "Man, I probably shouldn't have approached it like that." I don't dislike Eddie. He's a nice guy. He's respectful to me. He talks, at least as far as I know, highly of me. He commentated on a lot of my fights and talked highly of me. He's got my name on his board in his gym that has submissions and positions and stuff. He's got something on there called the Brennan mount, which is a tricky little mount that I do. It's nothing against him. Also, now in the position we're in, he has way more to lose than I do. If we compete, he beats me, everyone's like, "Okay. Cool. Whatever." If I beat him, what I've been saying is true. I get it. It is what it is. **Sonny:** He obviously went through a lot of the same criticisms that you went through for doing no-Gi. Particularly the idea of the myth that you have to train in the Gi if you want to get technical. I was wondering if maybe you could expand on that just a little bit, of why you think that is a myth, and how, if someone's thinking it still is the case, how they can look at it technically to dispel it. **Chris:** I think it started, obviously with, jiu-jitsu in Brazil was all Gi. Then there was the Luta Livre guys. They were doing some sort of jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling without the Gi on, but they were more strikers with some submissions. They had such a rivalry going that jiu-jitsu was the winner. Every time they fought those guys, they took the Gi off to fight them. In my opinion, whatever you're training in, you're creating habits. Every single time you do something, you're creating habits. If 50% even, and the Gi guys train more than 50% Gi, but even at 50% of the time you're holding my sleeve and my lapel and my pants, and then you go to train with me without it, that stuff's not there anymore. There you are, basically like the passing the guard with the hand on the bicep thing. You now have to switch over to something else. Right away, in my opinion, when I first took it off was, how can you get to the 10,000-hour rule if you're doing the three different ways, two different ways. I wanted all no-Gi. I wanted to drill, and drill, and drill, and drill, and drill one way. If I could be tight, if I can find handles and be tight without the Gi on, how much tighter would it be if I put the Gi on? Then it would be tighter. If you train in the Gi all the time, and you have the handles, and you have the sleeves, and you have all those things that made it tight, and now we took the Gi off, you just lost everything that was creating your friction and your tightness. That's why when you saw Eddie's guys trying to fight in the UFC and stuff, they were trying to wear leggings and knee sleeves and all of that to create that tension. My goal, always, was to create all that tension, and that weight, and that friction without that. With my grips, and with my handles, and with my positioning. That's what I created and developed over that time. I think because that was what they came up doing forever, that was their moneymaker when they came here. The stripes cost now, the belt cost now. The Gi is their money-maker. You take off the Gi, it's a different ballgame. Renzo was at my grand opening. I've been friends with Renzo for probably, I guess almost 20 years, 20-something years. He says something about my Gi classes. I said, "I don't have Gi classes." He goes, "What?" I was like, "Yes, I don't have Gi classes." He goes, "None? Zero?" I said, "No." He goes, "Man, I do $9,000 a month in laundry for Gi's." I said, "Look, I get it. I get that there's another market for money there, but my market from day one has been no-Gi. I haven't put a Gi on since blue belt. For a couple of pictures, I have, but that's all. I get that I could make more money, but for me, it's not about that. It's about the principle of what I'm teaching, why I'm teaching it." If you want to compete in a Gi, for sure you need to train in a Gi. We're not competing in a Gi. We're competing in no-Gi, we're fighting. We're doing jiu-jitsu now at a level where now, had I spent my whole career competing in no-Gi jiu-jitsu matches only and not fighting, I'd probably been a huge name in jiu-jitsu, but I spent my time fighting instead because that's what I really wanted to do. I retired in 2013, and everyone's like, "You're going to start doing jiu-jitsu now?" I was like, "I don't know. We'll see." My kids were competing at a tournament in Houston, and I was like, "Yes, I will do it with you." I went down there and I did it. Then two months later, I did another one. Everyone's like, " You should do the Worlds in November," or December, whatever it was. I was like, "Oh, my God. Well, okay." I went down there. I hadn't trained, until that year, with a lot of high-level guys, but I traveled around Texas at training and some gyms before I started competing. I was handling everyone with my go-to stuff that I knew in my gym. I was having a harder time catching my blue belts with it than black belts at other places because they knew it. They knew what I was doing, but I got to the new people that I hadn't trained with before. Not just catch it, catch it, catch them, catch them, and then I went to the new breed tournament, I won. I went to the Austin open and I won, tapped everyone. Went to World's my first-year, tap, tap, tap through to the finals and won, I was like, "Whoa." The next year I went to Pan Ams in New York. Tapped everybody there and won. Came back a week later, went to California, did Worlds again, won all the way through there again with submissions. The following year, Pan Ams again, then I went back to California again and tapped everybody except for the last guy, who was very good, but beat him, and saw just how can you critique it and it's not like I'm doing fancy rubber guard stuff. It's not like I was tapping everyone with leg locks. I was beating them straight up with guard passing conversion, guillotines. That was my bread and butter, and it kind of shot a few people up. The highlight was my first year at Worlds. In the finals, I won with the flying armbar, and like a jumping flying armbar. As soon as I stood up, Eddie, and like seven other dudes that were pretty good name guys, were literally standing right there watching. That could have been more satisfying. I didn't ever have to repeat again after that. **Sonny:** Got to be happy with that. Got to be happy. **Chris:** Yes, I was happy. I was happy. **Sonny:** Then one thing you did mention, there was the power of creating habits, and how intentionally or unintentionally you end up creating habits no matter what you're doing. I guess then you talked about creating your own training partners to train with out of your students, and building up their habits. Just want to just ask them, how do you or how were you approaching that to [train up those training partners,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) and then maybe has that changed over time? **Chris:** The first year, I was doing it because, number one, no one was letting me come to their gym, because of my rebel to the No-Gi, or to the Gi. I had a handful of guys who were my very good friends, and I just started teaching them. My gym was small at the time, my garage was small at the time, and just started giving the good stuff, man, and rolling nonstop. I have a video of me and Jeremy Williams, who was my first black belt, and there's a clock in the background. It starts at midnight, and at 2:30 AM, we end rolling. We roll for two and a half hours, starting at midnight at my gym. We're just there rolling. We just trained so much, and to start out, I was way better than them, and it just helped them elevate a lot faster. It pushed me a little bit, but that's also where, in my career, it hindered me. I didn't go away to other camps with higher level guys to train with. I was always the best guy in my camp. Unless, like, I had Pete Spratt as a striking coach, and that was awesome, but as far as jiu-jitsu and everything went, I was the best guy. It would take two or three times, four times through a round-robin of all my guys before I started getting beat, before I started getting dead. It wasn't as effective as it should have been, but at the same time, I couldn't afford to go away. I had a gym, had a wife of kids. It just didn't work out that way, but that is also why I bring people in for Lucas, and I take him to train with people, so he's not that that best guy in the room. It's not comfortable. We didn't do it for a while, so when I first started doing it, he didn't want to do it. I was like, "Why?" "Well, I can tell you why. Being the best guy in here, you're going to come across a guy who starts to put it on you in the cage, and you'll never been there before, and that's not good." I've got him trained with some really good guys, and I can tell you this, he's on the highest level right now, with the best guys. **Sonny:** Yes, and he's doing quite well in Bella tour at the moment. That's something I want to ask you about now, is how, especially with creating habits, and especially with jiu-jitsu habits translating over into MMA. It seems like a lot has changed in the last 10, 15 years, at least, of just with even submissions from people in the guard. Just not happening very often. **Chris:** Of course. **Sonny:** How do you then look at training kiu-jitsu for MMA in this day and age? **Chris:** Fortunately, I didn't wrestle. I started wrestling throughout my career when I had a couple of losses to Pat Miletich by decision because y'all wrestle me. My kids started wrestling in the beginning of high school. They both have very good wrestling. That is, in my opinion, the key to MMA, whether you want to be a striker or a jiu-jitsu guy, you need to know how to wrestle, and they both can wrestle. If they're put on their back, like if Lucas gets put on his back, he'll get, depending on, let's say, it happens in a fight, we got a plan, but let's say it happens in a fight and there is two or three minutes left in the round, he's got 30 seconds to try and submit him that he can't, it's time to get up, time to get on top. He's super dangerous on his back, he gives me so many problems from his back, but I know it's MMA, I know it's very difficult. Sleeping or getting up, get in the back, whatever, is important. If there's 30 seconds left, let's get up. If there's a minute left, let's get up. If there's two, two and a half minutes left, I'm going to give him 30 seconds to try and set up a submission. Otherwise, after that, it's time to get up, because in MMA, if you're on your back, you're losing, unless you're throwing up multiple close subs and being very active, and he's not, then he could probably win a little bit, but otherwise you're losing in the judges eyes being on bottom. As good as his jiu-jitsu is on his back, the goal will be to get up if he ends up there. There's lots of ways to get up. However, he would get up to get back on top, not really to get back to the feet, unless he just end up on the ground with a monster that was a surprise to us or something. If you watch MMA now, MMA is the same fight. Every single fight is the same fight, and it's two guys striking really well. Some guys strike really well, some guys don't. Somebody gets a takedown, the other guy gets back up. No one's really working to submit anybody. That's why you're not seeing a lot of submissions. At the same time, there's only a handful of high-level jiu-jitsu guys in MMA, in my opinion. If you watch the jiu-jitsu in general, I'm not pointing anybody out because they're Jacaré, Demian Maia, Joe Lauzon, there's a handful of-- Jim Miller. There's some really good guys. Cerrone is even underestimated on the ground. For the most part, their jiu-jitsu sucks in MMA. People don't train it. I think you have to have a specialty, and then get everything else as good as you can. If wrestling is your specialty, or jiu-jitsu is your specialty, that is going to shine because as a striker, as a grappler, for example, you got three or four feet to worry about, close that distance. Then if you're light-years ahead of him on the ground, that's it for him. You see guys that cannot get up, and they cannot get up when they have a good guy on top of them. They have everything to worry about after that. My goal with him is to change the game back a little bit to how it was, but at a much, much higher level. I can't even explain to you his jiu-jtsu in MMA. I don't know if you've ever seen any of his fights, but his jiu-jitsu and wrestling combo in MMA is now making his striking better, because people worry about the take-downs, so he's landing good strikes, then get to take-down. He is just a grinder, tons of strikes, tons of elbows, nonstop passing, knee-riding passing, hovering, and it's just really hard to put him in a bad position. We train it like that. We train it. If he's going to lose a position, it's going to be to the next best position, is going to be right back to the other one again. Putting him on his back is going to be really, really difficult. Keeping him there would be even more difficult. I want to continue to see him use a lot of jiu-jitsu, and maybe get some more people that ended up falling back that route. Otherwise, MMA is for sure its own style. It is guys training Jiu-Jitsu, kickboxing, and boxing, and wrestling all at the same time and mastering nothing. They're good everywhere but they're not great anywhere. If someone is great somewhere and you're able to take them there, you're going to beat them there. He is a good, good wrestle. He's great at Jiu-Jitsu. His striking is-- I don't like to keep talking about striking because I want to surprise somebody. He is going to get a knockout. I just don't want them to fall in love with the knockout when he gets it. When he gets a knockout, we're going to go backstage and shoot doubles. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I hear you. **Chris:** Just because, man, you know guys like Jorge Gurgel, even Demian Maia for a while. Those guys fall in love with their striking, and wrestlers fall in love with their strikings. They have power, but that's where you end up getting losses. The goal with him, man, is to run to 10 and 0, and then start challenging for the top five guys, for the belt in Bellator and get there without losses. That's obviously the goal for everybody, but this is a realistic goal about how we're approaching it, not rushing it and just fighting smart. For a while, you're listening to the commentators say, "Oh, I want to see him do this. I want to see that." We don't give a shit what you want to see. We want to win the fight. **Sonny:** Exactly. **Chris:** The goal is to win. He's very mentally strong and stays very patient. He's dedicated like literally nobody I've ever seen. He has a whiteboard in his bedroom the size of a sixty-five-inch TV that looks like the algorithm and goodwill hunting, but it's the breakdown of his fight camp. He does it every camp. He was a really smart kid before he started fighting. He wasn't a fighter, never been in a fight before, just taking a different approach to it. It's difficult to beat. It's going to be difficult to beat. **Sonny:** When you started teaching him Jiu-Jitsu, had you already started wrestling, or where did that fall in line? Did you always teach Jiu-Jitsu in the mind of it, it's going to be MMA applicable? **Chris:** Yes. I always thought Jiu-Jitsu was fairly MMA. My passing is perfect for it. Anytime on the bottom, there's not a lot of reaching under the leg. There's not a lot of stuff that leave you open to getting hit. There was always that MMA in the background, but legit Jiu-Jitsu is not what you would now call MMA Jiu-Jitsu, for sure. It was definitely more you could compete with it or fight with it. That's how mine was, my whole career, too. My kids, Luke, for example, was just a quiet nerdy book, animals, art kid. Tyler was racing motocross. He was real athletic. They were about to go into 7th and 8th grade. I said, "I'm going to have you guys start training." I had just opened my gym in Texas. I said, "I'm going to have you guys start training just for self-defense reasons", because both of them are super sweet kids, and had anybody ever picked on them, they would have never fought back, for sure would not have fought back. I started training them. Maybe a month, two months in, there was a tournament coming up, a NAGA tournament. Tyler wanted to do it, and Lucas was not interested at all. We went and Tyler won. On the way home, Luke said, "When's the next tournament?" I said, "I'm not sure. Why? "Because I'll do it." I was like, "Okay, cool". He had what would be probably a fifty-fifty first year of winning and losing. He was bigger than Tyler. He was competing against good kids. He's competing against kids that are training way longer. Tyler took to it. Tyler has nine Jiu-Jitsu losses out of 290 something wins. He's redeemed, I think, all but two of them because we never saw those guys again. He was just a savage. Luke had a good amount in his first year. Then, by the second year, he just worked so hard and was an athletic and worked himself into being athletic. By the third year, he won the kids' world championships in California, and so did Tyler. He just got better and better and better. Luke didn't start wrestling until his freshman year in high school. Tyler, as an eighth-grader, got to show up to the high school practices sometimes and train with them, but he didn't get to actually wrestle till his freshman year. That was it. They didn't start till freshman year in high school. Their work ethic was second to none. The wrestling coach also-- we walked in to the orientation and the rest of the coach made eye contact with me and saw them and he goes, "Man, I heard you guys moved to Frisco, but we weren't sure what school you were going to go to. We're so excited." Again, they are the hardest-working guys in the room. Now, Tyler's wrestling Division I. His coach tells me he's the hardest working guy in the room. It's just the work ethic we created while training Jiu-Jitsu and started them in wrestling. **Sonny:** Sounds like a pretty good combination and a good way of looking at things you've got there. I guess when you are training them and training guys at your own gym, I wonder what the role then of creativity is in your teaching process and training process because I'm thinking, for a guy to go out on their own, go against the grain, you probably would be more open to new ideas and experimentation, and trying things like that in the training room. Would that be a fair assumption to make? **Chris:** Yes. I'm open to anything, but I also have a passing system, a guillotine system. I love leg locks as well. I learned my leg locks from the Sambo guy. One of my students took a handful of privates from Gordon and from, I believe, Gary when they were here and showed me something. When he showed me that, I was like, "Oh, awesome." At that night, I hit it three times on people. From that point on, I use it, Lucas uses it, and stuff like that. I'm definitely open to learning anything and love to learn, but I've mastered what I do. I'm a one side-- I don't even drill both sides. I drill one side and I'm 99% on every side. I'm on the left-arm Kimura and armbar guy. I'm a right leg outside hook, left leg inside hook. I pass to both sides. I guillotine on my left arm. Everything's one side, and the other side is probably fucking 40%. The side I'm good, I've put in so many hours and so many drills, doing it live as well so many times that, like I said, when I went to Worlds, I tapped everybody in all three tournaments with the same submission, give or take one guillotine, but all from the same position, my home base position. It's just something that I've drilled so much that's real hard to stop. If I get to it, then typically, I get to it. Both of my kids were even more open than me. I don't know if it's because Luke's super artsy, but he's like mind completely open and does some crazy stuff. Watching him and Tyler roll together hurts my brain because the different positions and stuff that they get into and stuff that they try, and are able to recover from if it doesn't work. It's pretty awesome. Everyone's pretty open. **Sonny:** Yes. I guess even just being able to learn those things from other people and students and having them work on things as well, go back to what you're describing at the Gracie Academy, is possibly the exact opposite, right? **Chris:** Yes, for sure, the opposite. If I try to walk in the gym and say, "Hey, boys, I saw this. Check this. Let me show you." Probably laugh at me. **Sonny:** Also, you mentioned the benefit of competition in being able to go out and test yourself against other people, and using that as the testing ground to get new ideas and bring new things back in to change habits. There's a particular competition that I have to ask you about, which is the 2001 Westside Submission Grappling Tournament when Genki Sudo came to town. There's a video online that I must have watched about 1,000 or more times of Genki Sudo- **Chris:** The highlight? **Sonny:** Yes, the highlight video. I've got the whole thing. I'd love to see it. It has to be one of my favorites of all time. It's one of those ones that I'd show people, "Hey, this is this is how cool this can be." You were the referee in that tournament. In the video, obviously, it was at your place. Can you describe what's the back story there? What happened? What went down that day? **Chris:** I used to hold a tournament in my gym, Westside Submission Tournament. I'll hold it every few months. We give away either free pizza and drinks or I'd get like a ten-foot subway sandwich and cut it and give away free food to the competitors. We had Roy Nelson, we had Herb Dean, we had Dean Lister. A lot of really good guys, Romie Aram, Javi Vazquez. Really good guys, come in and do the tournament. Unfortunately, a lot of times they weren't there at the same time. They weren't there at the same tournament. That day Genki walked in and I didn't know who he was at the time. He had a couple of guys with him, I think some sort of publicity guy or journalist guy or something, I don't know. I don't even know why he was in the US and why he's at my gym or how he found out about it, I don't know. But he doesn't walk in my gym in Lake Forest, California. I was like, "Oh, this guy looks like he's going to be good in flying triangle." He went with my guy first and he flying triangles the next three guys, and he flying triangle the next three guys in a row. I was like, "Shit, man, if we just saw those first three, you probably wouldn't get flying triangle." You might've got beat by something else, but probably wouldn't get flight triangle. He hits those. Then he's dancing around one kid's guard and hops over his guard to a mounted triangle, and then hits that rolling cap pressure. As you can see me in the video, I was just laughing when he hits that cap. I was like, "Oh my God, that was crazy". He had seven matches and just ran through seven guys. Then he's tired, sits down, Javi Vazquez walks in the door and he was going to do the absolute. I was like, "Oh, man." I offered 500 bucks to the winner of both of them, back then that was a lot of money in the Jiu-Jitsu bet. I said to Genki and he goes, "No", he was tired. He was exhausted. He didn't want to go and Javi was fresh. I got it and I was like, "Okay, hopefully, you come back another time". That match didn't get to happen. It would have been pretty exciting because Javi was very good, and would have definitely been the highest level guy that day that Genki would have gone against. How cool just to have that video of him showing up a super nice guy, smoked everybody, and then just grabbed his piece of pizza and left \[laughs\]. That was mind-blowing. **Sonny:** That is incredible. It matches what I picked up, what I thought it was going on, which is, "Yes, why is Genki Sudo here?" **Chris:** Yes, I was thinking the same that you are. **Sonny:** "What is going on?" Because he's such a creative grappler himself. That it's just incredible to watch. It just didn't seem like it was like "What is going on?" \[laughs\] Did you ever see him again after that day in America? **Chris:** I saw him in Japan but I never saw him in America again. I don't know what he was doing there. \[laughter\] **Chris:** The cool thing about it was not only is he creative, he wasn't afraid to go for it. I'm creative but all my stuff has like a 99% exit strategy where I'm right back to a good spot. He would just throw with things. It was amazing to watch that day. Pretty cool. **Sonny:** I definitely jumped on a few [training partners](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) going for that flying triangle over the seated guard a few times after watching that video, and failing spectacularly. That's incredible. I guess, also with speaking over in Japan, taking your note brand of Nogi Jiu-Jitsu going over into pride shooter and things over there, was there any considerations for your Jiu-Jitsu, like any of those criticisms of Nogi? Did you experience that over there or was it just all forgotten and left behind in America? **Chris:** No criticism at all over there. They're all very cool. My first-- well, I'd say go to Pride first. I don't know if I went to Pride-- was it Rampage first when he fought Sakuraba or if I fought Gomi first? I forget. But my first trip for me fighting was Gomi. I hit some really nice submissions, really nice takedowns, really nice. He hadn't been taken down in a fight yet, and I took him out four times, had a couple of Kimuras locked up. That was early on in my Kimura game attack system, whatever. I had him in so many things. They loved it. It was a very high pace fight, close, close decision. Then my first fight in Pride, I hit two subs on the same guy. I armbar him. **Sonny:** Yes, I wanted to talk to you about that. **Chris:** The second half of that fight was so much more exciting. I was mad at the time but glad it happened now because it actually worked. I got to work my home base position, which I just started then, which is why I kill everyone from now. But that was a whole dramatic scene, but I got to show some fancy Jiu-Jitsu there as well. That was cool. Rolling Kimura from the single leg. **Sonny:** That was Eiji- I'll probably butcher the pronunciation. **Chris:** Eiji Mitsuoka. **Sonny:** You got it. Tapped him with an armbar, and then it was confusion where the ref hops up, says he didn't tap. You guys, after the break, you guys have to go again. What was going on there? Is it one of those Japanese refereeing stories that you might hear? **Chris:** It started long before that \[laughs\]. Let me go back to the short time before that. I was supposed to fight Joe Stevenson in the UFC right after he won The Ultimate Fighter. They asked me to fight him and I had wanted to fight him but they'd come to me offering me 3,000 to show, 3000 to win. I just, a couple of years earlier, beat him handily in less than two minutes. I was like, "Man, I'm not fighting three to three. It's not worth it to me". Then I asked what he was getting, he was getting 10 to 10. I was like, "No. No way." Like, "Oh, he's the winner of the show. He wants you to be his first fight in UFC." I'm like, "I'm not doing it for three to three." At the time, I needed money but I didn't need it like that, so it wasn't a big deal to me. They came back and offered me four and four. Joe started talking trash, even the first time, and that's what got him put to sleep the first time. I ended up saying yes, and they said, "Okay, we'll set a contract." Well, 30 days later-- actually, I didn't hear from them. 30 days later, the Gracie hit me up to fight in the Gracie Fighting Championships and they were offered me 20,000 flat. It was 36 days before the UFC. I said, "Yes, I'll take that fight." I take that fight. Joe Silva calls me and says, "Hey, what are you doing? You can't take that fight." I said, "Why?" He goes, "Your contract-" "But what are you saying? I never got a contract." He said, "You never got our contract back" I was like, "Because you never sent me a contract". We got a big argument. Long story short, they tell me, I can't take the other fight. I said, "You're going to have to pay me more than four and four if you don't want me to take that fight. They're paying me 20 grand. I need 20 grand." I said no. The next day, Dana calls me and he says, "Chris, drop out of that fight. You can't take that fight." I said, "Listen, Dana, you guys are paying me shit money, and they're paying me good money. I need to fight." "We'll put you on the poster, blah, blah, blah." I said, "It doesn't matter, whatever". Then he says, "Listen, drop out that fight or you're banned from the UFC for life." I was like, "What?" At that point, they had given me tickets to the UFC a couple of times when I was in town in Vegas and that weekend was my anniversary. My wife and I are in Vegas and I said, "I'll tell you what. Give me tickets to the fights this weekend and I'll do it." He goes, I can't really-" and I hung up the phone. That was the end of it. I leave to go big bear to get ready for the fight that Gracies had offered me. The next day on the underground forum, Dana White posts, "Chris Brennan is a fucking pussy." By the time I got to it, it was 20 pages long but everyone was bashing Dana. "You're the CEO of this company. How are you going to talk like this about one of your guys? Blah, blah, blah". For the most part, it was ripping him. A couple of people call me a pussy probably but whatever. I'm dying and I'm like, "Oh my God." I get through my fight. I win. I go to the UFC, another UFC to watch. As I'm there, I'm walking through the pool area at Mandalay and I hear Chris, Chris Brennan. I looked back and it's **\[unintelligible 00:59:49\]** from pride. Well, I ended up verbally agreeing to my pride contract after UFC. Couldn't have gotten any better than that. I tell them yes, that I would like to fight for them, and they said, "Okay, we'll get back to you". I go home and that is on Sunday. On Monday, they call me and said, "Hey, do you want to fight in our next show?" I said, "Yes, when is it?" "Like Monday?" Well, it was on a Monday, I don't know why. I was like, "What?" I had two days of training and then I'm on a flight to Japan and not in shape, I wasn't ready to fight and I show up in the weight class, was 183 pounds. That's what the middleweight was at that time. There was no 161 weight class yet at pride. I show up, I make my cut, I get to 183. I weigh in and they come to me and they said, "Hey, he's a little bit smaller. I'm going to need you to lose a couple more pounds." I was like, "Oh, okay, what do you need?""It's 181". I went and I cut two more pounds. I make 181, and they told me again that, "We need you to make 180 pounds, you lose another pound." I'm like, "Man", I wasn't in shape. It's already hard cutting this, so I go and I cut that pound. I come back again and the third time they're like, "Hey, he's 76, I need you to make 79, make 79, they'll take the fight." I'm like, "What do you mean they'll take the fight? You guys offered me this fight because of him." My brother says, "Listen, if you want him to lose that next pound, we're going to need some compensation from you", and they said, "Oh, okay. Do you want crystal with the fight?" Me and my brother looked at each other like, "What?" I was like, "No, no, we'll take care of that", and that's how I ended up signing a four-five deal with Brian. I walked away and I'm elbowing him like, "Dude, I knew that shit happened over here." I was tripping out so hard and now I'm like, "Man, they're just going to screw me and the others. I really got to get in and get out." I got to get this done, can't let it go to the judges. I go in and I armbar this guy, he screams, taps, and the ref grabs me all at the same time. I let go, I stand and walk away, I turn around and they're saying they didn't tap like, "Oh my God, this is it. This is how they're going to do it." I'm not in shape. I had fought for a minute and a half and I was already tired, and then fortunately they took like a five or six-minute break while all the referees were discussing it and they came back, "You're going to fight again." I was like, "Oh my God". Then I thought, for sure, I wasn't going to win at that point, no matter what I do, they're not going to let this happen, so I ended up breaking a shoulder on the same side. I hit him with the whole takedown single leg to the Kimura, to the roll. All of it was just so perfect and it was flashy, it was fancy. Didn't even mean to be, but it just was and I hit him with a gray Kimura at the end, it literally towards to your shoulder and I lead into him and I said, "You should have admitted your tap the first time", and I walked off. Then I was irritated and I want to talk trash when they interviewed me but I calmed down by that time I was like, "No, it was my fault. I shouldn't have let go, I should have waited for the referee." Even though I did wait, the referee did break us up, and I just took the blame for it and moved on because I knew I wanted to come back and fight some more and whatnot. That was a crazy, crazy, crazy night man. **Sonny:** Yes, that whole thing it's like a scene from a movie or something, the backstage. **Chris:** I wish I had that all on video. It was fantastic. **Sonny:** It's amazing. I guess just focusing then on your use of Kimuras, or at least the instructional, the king of the Kimuras. It's obviously like it really got a bump in people's minds, now people call it the Kimura trap and things like that. Danaher is obviously very heavy on the Kimuras. What's your thoughts on that? Always you must be like, "I knew so all along", right? **Chris:** For sure. It's a grip that you can submit people with. You can turn in armbars, you can take the back, you can sweep, you can do so much with it, and in a Nogi situation, it's a good grip, fifth-round sweaty. It's going to be your best go-to to control an arm. I have a grip when I grab it, it puts a bicep slicer feeling on your arm the entire time and I get guys tapping early to stuff that I'm doing just because the grip stays on so tight. It's always been all the way back in the end of 1999 to 2000. I was doing it all the time. 2001, I hit it. I don't know what year I fought Gomi in, but at that point in time, I was hitting on everybody in training. I had on Domi, I didn't finish it, but literally, my point of my career, was the development of my style, my game, and I got better training on the best guys and then trying in the gym and getting better and trial and error, what did I do wrong in the fight? I made a huge mistake in the Gomi fight that I pet **\[unintelligible 01:05:35\]** when I'm teaching now on this one sweep, but it ended up with him inside control on me on this role because my knee wasn't on his belly. It was the tiniest thing that made a giant difference in the position, right at that point. It's something that I've spent. If a guy spent a couple of years getting good at something, it's something I spent 15 years getting good at. I spent 15 years or more working the guillotine into the Kimura because they both play right next to each other. If I miss one, the other's there and then adding Lakes. In the last five years, I've just been a passing, passing, passing, passing. I love my knees slides and low passes, and some of the stuff that Gordon's doing now. But even the stuff that he does, if Gordon was under Gordon and he tried to pass that way, he'd leg lock him. My leg stable and everything, the way I do it is always been legs safe even before legs became a thing. I didn't have to make a lot of adjustments in the last four or five years when legs became really big to my passing system to knock it leg locked. **Sonny:** Then you mentioned in the Kimura as the grip, do you think that that was your early adoption of Nogi that led you down that path? Or was it already \[crosstalk\]. **Chris:** Yes, for sure. **Sonny:** Okay. **Chris:** What happened was, one day at the Gracie Academy, and I knew I already didn't want to train GI, I didn't want to compete GI, but one day in the Gracie Academy, there were a couple of guys that were in the GI that were better than me, a couple of purple belts and a couple of brown belts. At the time I was blue and had, I don't know, two stripes. They could beat me in the GI, I could give everyone a hard match, but they could beat me in the GI.One day a hoist came down, said, "Everybody take off your GI off. We're going to go open hand strikes and go live." I just beat them out of everyone, but not just striking them, my Jiu-Jitsu was just naturally really good without the GI on. I had my sweeps, I had my take-downs, my guard passing, like all of it just naturally came to me that day. I went and sat back down, I was like, "Holy crap." I've been doing Nogi on the side, me and Layman in the hotel room. We had guys like Lucio DeAngelis, Little H who's in fights in Bellator and wasn't LFA. A lot of really good guys from Brazil, Mauricio Zingano was like one of my best friends and he would train in our hotel room with us all the time, and we always train Nogi. When it came time to do with those guys, they had barely done any and that's what I had been spending my time trying to do the most, and it just really showed. At that point I was like, "Yes, that's the key for me. I'm done with this shit". **Sonny:** Then I guess just to wrap things up with hindsight now, looking back at that moment deciding to go Nogi, probably being outcast from the mainstream Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu scene at the time and then now Gordon Ryan just the other day saying on *Joe Rogan Show* that he thinks Nogi is obviously going to be the only thing that people are going to be watching people competing in the future. What advice would you give yourself or what lessons would you take back up from that whole journey? **Chris:** Well, here's an example of how serious I was about it. The Roger Brooklyn guy, my friend, who I brought from Brazil, he was a brown belt indeed, and he was going to open my gym with me. He was going to partner with me. He was going to be the Jiu-Jitsu coach to start with. As soon as I told him it was going to be Nogi, he didn't want any part of it. Then I was like, "Man, this is what I want to do, come on." I'm putting the money up, I'm doing all this and he just did not want to do it. For himself at the time, he was probably right, because he would have never gotten his black bells, not for a long time anyway. He would've got black bell too. I get why he didn't do it, he had trained all the way through brown belt as it was and whatever, but I was so early on that I just knew. Next-generation, it's perfect now because of my kids, they're obviously the next generation but my goal at the time was next generation was going to be the next generation of Jiu-Jitsu. They said that when I was fighting in the UFC that night against Pat Miletich . "He's going to open up a school called The Next Generation. He wants to create the next generation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys", and that's what I wanted to do. I want to have the next generation of Jiu-Jitsu and that be Nogi. That was why I named my gym what I named it, It just so happens to be now that my kids actually are the next generation. It works again but originally I was going Nogi no matter what. As a blue belt, when he said he wasn't going to be involved with like, "well, I guess I'm open to the gym as a blue belt". **Sonny:** I guess it was just that, that's firm belief within yourself looking at what you wanted to do in fighting and just staying true to that path. Even as you mentioned earlier, Renzo saying he was doing $9,000 worth of gay laundry a month. Am I correct that you even went the route of starting the first Nogi brand with Nogi? **Chris:** Yes. A buddy of mine, Jeremy, we started that clothing company, Dan, I don't know if you've ever heard of Hitman Fight Gear, but Hitman Fight Gear used to sponsor me and I told him I wanted to start a clothing company but I wanted to be more sporty, not as black and skulls and everything as Hitman was. He had just gotten 300 pairs of blue shorts that were really cool but they were blue and it didn't buy with his thing. I spent I think 1,200 bucks, bought those shorts and then just started Nogi. Then I got my buddy Jeremy who's an artist and he started creating logos and we just grew it from there. Then later sold it to Budo videos, down the line. **Sonny:** Incredible. So many really were starting that next-generation even ahead of the curve really in a lot of what you were doing in grappling and now passing that onto your kids. **Chris:** Like I said earlier, I didn't come-- when I first started, I wasn't coming from a really good place. I had nothing. I didn't have money. I'm glad that I had to do it the way I did it and grind and work hard and fail and work hard and fail, because it helped develop me as a person. I dropped out of high school as a freshman in high school and didn't go back. It really helped me develop into a person and into a businessman and then into a hard worker. The downs for me was always-- I was never deterred. I never thought I wasn't going to make it. No matter how many times it didn't work, I never thought I wasn't going to make it. Just help me stay determined to get to where I'm at. Now my kids have it almost too easy. For sure, they've never done without, and that was a hard thing for me when Luke decided he was going to fight. It was like, okay, we're going to turn everything up in training and see how that goes because he had never been in a fight before. He was a sweet kid, never been an argument before. He just is so good at the sport. His second opponent was a shit talker. He was a mad dog. Wouldn't shake his hand at the press conference and was just being a dick. He had never dealt with that even in real life. I'm like, "Hey, just laugh". "Whatever he does, don't even worry about it. Because tomorrow, he still has to fight you. Even though he's acting stupid, he still has to fight you. It's not going to help him fight you any better." Now, he's old. He's 20, almost 21. He's different. It's definitely got a mean, mean way about him now in the cage, but I was curious. At the beginning, I was like, "Okay, you want to fight? You're fighting from a very, very different place than I was fighting from, for sure". **Sonny:** I think I know what you're talking about. Where I'm from we have a saying that someone's got to get a bit of mongrel in them and they got to switch on, turn that in to have that little bit of fight in them. **Chris:** It tells. **Sonny:** Well, Chris, it has been an amazing interview for me to have the opportunity to have this conversation. Such a rich history that you've got in the sport that it has been a pleasure to chat with you about. I'm wondering if people want to get in touch with you, want to get in contact, anything like that. Why they should go about it or anything you'd like to plug? **Chris:** I'm on Facebook. My Facebook is full but they can follow me or go to my athlete page and follow it. Instagram. It's @Chris\_Brennan\_3x\_champ. I'm super accessible. Someone wants to message me, question me, whatever, feel free to hit me up at any time. Otherwise, Next-Generation MMA is my gym. I've got two here in Texas. One in Colorado, one in California, two in Ireland, two in England, two in Norway, and one in Australia. **Sonny:** That's I guess from humble beginnings going worldwide. **Chris:** Yes, sir. I've been lucky and fortunate. **Sonny:** I'm fortunate to have had this chance to speak to you today, Chris. Really, really appreciate it. **Chris:** Thank you very much. I appreciate the interview. **Sonny:** Do it again in the future sometime. **Chris:** Sure. Anytime. **Sonny:** Awesome, Chris. Thanks so much. Cheers. **Chris:** Thank you. Bye-bye. ![Chris Brennan Interview- No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu & Next Generation MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/chris_brennan_promo-1-1024x1024.jpg "chris_brennan_promo-1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [School of Grappling Systems Theory, Chaos & Complexity](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-systems-theory-chaos/) **Published:** May 10, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Grappling Systems Theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/grappling_systems-1024x576.jpg "Grappling Systems Theory › Sonny Brown")I talk to Andy from School of Grappling. We discuss how systems theory, [complexity and chaos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wim-deputter-mirroring-principle-chaos-learning/ "Wim Deputter on The Mirroring Principle and Controlled Chaos for Learning Jiu-Jitsu") can be underlying forces in your grappling training but how misunderstanding systems can be a frequent occurrence in Jiu-Jitsu. Then why attempting to build the perfect, all-encompassing grappling system that is doomed to fail before you even begin and how intuition could help to patch the leaks providing you can identify when you are in the all-important **pocket of predictability**. Giving you a guide to grappling [systems theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory")! Also what we can learn from robotics, artificial intelligence, a school of fish, and a flock of birds to help navigate and guide your [jiu-jitsu systems](https://www.sonnybrown.net/distance-learning-danaher-grappling-system-luke-martin-bjj/ "Luke Martin on Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System"). And finally how wanting to help your students too much and expecting them to learn from your own mistakes can counter-intuitively be catastrophic for them. #### Listen To The Interview With School Of Grappling Here: ## Key Topics ### Systems theory and grappling Andy distinguishes between a rigid procedural system and a complex adaptive system. He argues that grappling behaves more like traffic, an ecosystem or a neural network than a fixed flowchart because the opponent constantly changes the problem. ### Complexity, chaos and predictability The discussion explores why grappling cannot be made completely predictable. Instead, athletes can look for smaller pockets of predictability where useful rules, principles and heuristics help guide decisions. ### Why perfect grappling systems break down Andy is sceptical of endlessly expanding decision trees that attempt to account for every possible reaction. As complexity grows, the system becomes harder to remember and less useful under pressure. ### Exploration, intuition and coaching The episode connects systems thinking to coaching. Rather than trying to give students every answer, coaches can create environments where athletes explore problems, develop intuition and discover solutions that fit their own game. ## Key Takeaways - Grappling is a complex adaptive system rather than a fully predictable sequence. - Useful coaching should focus on principles and solvable pockets of predictability. - Trying to map every possible reaction can make a system less practical. - Exploration and intuition help athletes operate when the situation moves beyond a prepared script. ## Resources - [School of Grappling](https://schoolofgrappling.com/) - [School of Grappling on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/) - [School of Grappling on Developing Grappling Intuition & Instincts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/grappling-intuition-instincts/), the earlier conversation referenced throughout this episode ### School Of Grappling Interview Transcript **Sonny:** How are you doing today? **Andy:** I'm pretty good. Stuff is getting boring, but I guess that's for pretty much everyone around the world right now, right? **Sonny:** Yes, it's tough times, but we got some great feedback on the last podcast we did. Some people were really into what you had to discuss with your ideas on intuition. My understanding is that you talk about intuition and heuristics. My takeaway from that was it's a way to quickly problem-solve on the fly. You had the ideas of how to [teach that heuristic solving ability to students](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/). Is that roughly correct? **Andy:** When it comes to intuition, yes. Heuristics, not so much, because I talked about there's some evidence that intuition is heuristic, like a subconscious heuristic in your body, kind of thing, but I'm not 100% sure if that's true. So what I want to point out is that whatever intuition is really, it doesn't matter. I'm trying to get better at it and find ways to get better at it. Heuristics is a little bit different. We will get into that. **Sonny:** We'll get into that. Good. Mainly, then, we're just dealing with the concepts of intuition. Where we left it is, obviously, intuition seemed to be more like a flowing idea, but you're also a big believer in the use of systems in grappling. If we want to start with just maybe defining what a system in grappling is to you and then how we can implement it. **Andy:** Yes, that's a really good thing, because I actually really believe it's always good to define something really, really well before you actually talk about it. The thing with systems is-- Actually, there are two definitions which aren't the same thing at all. I just Googled it and you can do it as well if you're listening. If you just Google system, you get two definitions. I will try to read them both. The first one is a set of things working together as part of a mechanism on interconnecting network. A complex whole. That's one way to see a system. Traffic is a system. A tree is a system, nature is a system, the universe, everything is a system if we go by this definition. Then we have the second definition, which is a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done. An organized scheme or method. If we talk about systems in BJJ, most of the time, if not all the time, we talk about the second definition, like what Dana is doing. He tries to organize stuff, find a method, find a procedure, a process, stuff like this. Like I said, that's a system that's absolutely correct. I actually wrote one piece and I called it Why Most Systems are not Systematic. What I meant by that is, if we say a system like Dana uses, it is a really analytic thing. You say, "Okay, I'm at A and now three things can happen and then I go to B, C, or D," and stuff like this. This whole mind map and flowcharts that arise from the systems. The thing is, a tree is also a system because it's like many microorganisms together in one. Or traffic is a system, you have all these cars which are single parts. You have the traffic lights, you have the streets, you have passengers, that's also a highly, highly interconnected system. We can go on and on and on and on. Your brain is a system. It's a neural network. Your body is a system. You have bones working together with your bloodstream, working together with your muscular nervous system, and so on and so on and so on. What I'm trying to do is systems thinking. I try to see what kind of system do I got here. If it's a really complex system, one which is changing all the time, or maybe it has many, many, many, many parts, then I think this systemized way to look at it is really flawed because it's just too much. If you take a look at some mind maps, you can find on BJJ, they get bigger and bigger and bigger. Then we get new systems and another system and no one can tell me that you can actually remember this stuff. I feel like it at least. **Sonny:** Then how do we actually then integrate that into grappling? **Andy:** Okay. Maybe I want to make one thing a bit more clear. What I'm talking about, all this system stuff is, it's basically systems theory. Systems theory, as a scientific, not really a method, but a theory which is highly interdisciplinary from all scientific fields, like mathematics, physics, biology. It's a really broad topic. Systems theory, if you just Google or if you just take a look at the Wikipedia site and read system theory, maybe read stuff about complex systems and chaos theory, this weird notion which many people don't really get, it's all about the fact that most systems, really most, are not predictable at all. They are super complex, they are dynamic, they change, and we cannot really predict what's going to happen next. Traffic, for example, you can't predict which car is going where, everywhere, at which moment, that's impossible, but we can see that there are underlying [principles or concepts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) which all systems have in common. It doesn't matter if it's a biological system. It's a complex artificial intelligence learning algorithm. If it's like I said traffic, and in some way, I feel like combat or grappling is also such a system. It's unpredictable. You don't know what the other guy will do in a given moment. We can actually see that there are many principles that arise in all of these systems. I feel it's really beneficial to study these things, but at the same time, there are also systems which are predictable. Like I said, most systems are unpredictable, but actually, there are some that are really predictable. Usually, a good way to gauge that is, the smaller a system is, the better you can predict it. The easiest way is a dilemma. I'm at point A, and my opponent can only do two things, like B and C. Then it would be stupid to say, "Oh, no, I cannot predict it. I want to only work intuitively." No, the problem is easy enough. You can formulate a system and you can work methodically. The point is we should always really make sure to try and to understand what's the situation. Is it predictable? Is it a smaller, more constrained and more confined environment? Or is it really dynamic and complex and changing? Then maybe we shouldn't even try to use the system and maybe then rely more on rules of thumb or intuition. For me, the easiest example is, I teach the kimura trap system, for example, because I feel like once you have the kimura grip fully locked in, then too many things the other guy can do. You can really prepare your students, " Okay, we can do this. We can do that," and stuff like that, but the way how to get to the kimura, usually, I don't systemize too much because I feel if we are wrestling in the neutral position, or if we are scrambling or even if we try to pass an open guard, there's really a lot your opponent can do. **Sonny:** Then it's a matter of constraining the options that your opponent has, and from that point when you limit their options, you can start to work a system. Is that correct? **Andy:** Yes, absolutely. That's actually something I wrote in an article. I said, we have to find ways to constrain our opponents so that we can actually limit his reactions so we can predict them. The way we do that, usually, is guided mostly by intuition. We start in a really dynamic and complex grappling exchange. You don't start in the control. Then we find ways to skillfully progress or position and confine our opponent more and more and more. The more we confine him, the more predictable it becomes for us. It's not like a clear cut thing. At some point, you may be acting entirely intuitive or it's just too much to think about at all. Then, maybe it gets a bit more confined and you start to think more about rules of thumb. Then at some point, you maybe reached a position where you can then employ a system because it's constrained enough. **Sonny:** That makes sense. In your example, we're wrestling for a position from a neutral position, and with so many options available, who knows what could happen. I'm trying to funnel my opponent down to limit their options until say, I can get both my hands on a kimura grip, and then my brain can start going, "Time to implement my kimura trap system from here and start working through those options systematically." That sounds about right? **Andy:** Yes, pretty much. **Sonny:** Then, let's stick with the kimura trap. Once we have the kimura trap grip, we've got our options from there. What actually makes that then a system and what would just be a bunch of moves? Everyone has some moves of a kimura grip, what actually makes it into a proper system in your eyes and what's just a collection of techniques? **Andy:** The way I see it, and I don't think that's any official definition or something, it's just the way I think about it. I come from a science background. I learned a lot about physics and how to use a computer to solve scientific or physical problems. I think about it like this. If I can write it down like a computer code, if I can write a program of it, if I can create a mind map or a flowchart, then it's a system, because I have clearly defined interactions between the different parts of the system. If I just have objects or parts of a system, but I have not defined how they interact with each other and how the relations are, then that's not really a method, that's not systematic. If you can make a mind map and you can really define how positions or moves relate to each other and how to get from A to B, for me, then it's a methodical thing, then we can call it a system. **Sonny:** For you then it's really in the definition that the person employing it gives it themselves as long as they can actually back that up with, I like the example of a mind map, everyone can understand that. If you mind map your techniques out, "They do this, I do that," in somewhat of a complete fashion, then it's reasonable to call that a system. Does that sound--? **Andy:** Yes, I think the mind map is a good example, which this is done , right? I've seen you can buy all these mind maps now of all the Danaher DVD''s It's, actually, people do look at the DVDs, create a little mind map, and try to sell them, I think so ... **Sonny:** Yes, I've seen those ones too, which is funny because they've gone through a lot of effort. Those mind maps are huge that they've put together for the Danaher DVDs. One of the first Danaher DVDs actually came with some flowchart that had a bunch of spelling errors in it. Do you know the one I'm talking about? It didn't seem like actually a flowchart. **Andy:** Yes, for the Leglocks, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Andy:** I have it in the back of my mind. I can remember it. **Sonny:** They put it out for free when it was released and I remember looking at it going, "This doesn't look that complete," but maybe that's a story for another day. One of the first things I think about then is the Eddie Bravo's books, which back in the day were huge to have a hold of. They were some of the best-produced books going around or one of the earliest produced books. They all came with flowcharts for his rubber guard and his half guard system and even his dogfight system, which was all flowcharted out. I still use that today. Definitely, as a process of learning, it made it easier just to see it for me, they do this, I do that, they counter it with this, I do that. It certainly helped put it all together. What would your thoughts be then on-- Since grappling is so complex, our systems are bound or just our moves won't have a success rate all the time. They can't be a computer system where we put a code in or something and it's going to work 99% of the time. How do we deal with the failure of going through those moves? **Andy:** There are a few things. First of all, as I said, I believe I'm not the guy who says, "Yes, you should only act intuitively and use concepts and no systems, no techniques." I'm also not the guy who says, "You can systemize and should systemize everything." For me, pretty much all I do is just a tool. If I feel like it works, I do it for that particular problem. If I feel like it doesn't, I do something else. I try to use systems in a way where I can still handle them, so I try to make them small. For example, for the kimura trap, if I'm at a certain position or sub-position, I first try to identify the highest percentage moves I've seen by studying tape or which works for me in rolling or what I have seen others do at rolling. If you just take a look at all the things you can do from a given position, if you just use your wit, there will probably be 20 moves. I first start off and say, "Yes, --" I streamline my thinking a bit, and maybe I really try to delete most of that from my memory. I take a look and see, "What have I actually seen work most of the time?" Then, I try to reduce my options to maybe two or three at max. I don't like to have more than three options. Why? Because I think stuff gets too confusing. Then, you start doing things which fail less. If you just teach moves where you know they are pretty high percentage, this is a good way to reduce failure in the first place. The other thing is, what I always do is I teach my students, and that's how I approach it myself. Practice so that your moves never fail. At the same time, practice in a way which you game plan like every move is failing 9 out of 10 times. What I mean by that is, if I'm at a position A and by attempting my move, I lose that position, then I will not do it. I don't care or if the move fails and I end up in a bad position, these moves, I don't teach, I don't use them. An extreme example and many people will really disagree with that is, I don't like the armbar from the mount at all, because I feel like the mount is maybe the second strongest position maybe in BJJ. Of course, the armbar is a great submission. I would never say the armbar from mount does not work. It works very, very often. For me, personally, as I said, I have a pretty good armbar from the mount because of my judo background. Armbars are huge in judo, but I don't do it at all if I don't have to because even if I can do it 9 out of 10 times if it fails 1 out of the 10 times, you usually end up on the bottom or in a scramble, and you lost mount. Why would you do that? I prefer to teach my students, "We are in the mount and we don't attempt the armbar." Maybe I still show it and I tell people, "If you are in a match and it's one minute on the clock, and you are nine points behind, of course, you should go for the armbar." That's a different situation. In the broader sense, I say, we purposefully try to only look at the stuff which we can attempt and still be either in mount if it fails or progress into something else, which is still good. A good example would be the arm triangle from the mount, I think is a good option because usually, if it fails, you still end up on top position or can take the back if the person turns in the wrong direction to defend. Yes, stuff like this. **Sonny:** I'm with you on that with the armbar from mount, especially for MMA. I tell all the guys not to go for it unless 20 seconds is left in the round because you could lose position and that's the end of the fight. **Andy:** Maybe to make it more clear, to answer your question, the question was how can we systemize if moves fail, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Andy:** That's the point, don't do a system with moves, which, if they don't work, you end up outside the system. Try to create a system in a way which, even if a move fails, you're still in the system. If that move doesn't fit into the system, then don't use it. **Sonny:** Then, if we are just looking at getting the best percentage moves and putting them into each of our own grappling games then how much variability between grappling systems should or could there actually be? Obviously, people could come up with their own systems, but in your approximation, if we're only picking the high percentage moves, then is there an ideal system that everyone should be using and we just stick to that one and that's what should be taught to everyone? **Andy:** I feel like in some way, yes; in some way, no. Because in some way, yes, they are, in my opinion at least, really fundamental principles. If you would act in a way which is in accordance with all these principles, that would be the perfect system, but I feel like that's a bit of an idea which will never be reached because people have a different personality, they have different body types. Maybe there is, from position A, the perfect move, but maybe you don't have the flexibility to do it, for example. Then you can't rely on that idolized perfect technique. I believe it's another thing, I do. The systems I teach, I try not to maybe do the ideal way, but the way everybody can do it. It doesn't rely on body type. That's why I don't teach rubber guard that much and stuff like this. I don't say it doesn't work, but I feel like if you are that flunky, flexible, gangly dude, go to YouTube, research it, make it your thing. It's not in my core curriculum. I try to identify the high percentage moves which work for pretty much everybody most of the times. I don't say it's ideal, but I say that's a good framework we can start with, then you can add to the system. I teach the things who really fit to yourself, to your personality, your body type, stuff like this. The systems I teach are more like the basis and I don't see them as finished at all. There are few things that I want everybody to be good at. Then, if you are good at this stuff, then you should, and I encourage you to add stuff to the system which is really, really personal to you. **Sonny:** I agree with that especially with rubber guard now even though I played it a lot myself. Now when I'm teaching, I actually prefer to teach a Williams guard or a shoulder pin just because it relies less on flexibility because I know if I try to teach rubber guard in a class, there's a lot of people who won't have that flexibility to actually pull it off. Although I know that the 10th Planet point of view says that it's just a matter of hip positioning, but that's something for another day. **Andy:** The thing is probably it's also not for everybody. Not everybody enjoys this kind of stuff. That's really important because I teach pretty much mostly hobbyists. My goal is, I want to make them great grapplers, not necessarily world champions. Part of the way they approach grappling should be also enjoyable for them and also, in a way, fit their personality. It's not always about optimization. It's also about, why do you do this stuff? What's the reason? **Sonny:** Okay, that's interesting. In terms of keeping it fun for people, I guess taking that systematic approach might be seen as a bit dry for some people, lacking some kind of freedom of expression, but you still keep that option open for people to add their own parts to it. When you're actually teaching people your systems that you have worked out, how do you put it to them that they can add their own stuff in there? Do they have to have a good understanding of the system you have before they do that? Do they have to have it flowcharted out themselves, the stuff that they want to add or how do they go about adding those fun bits that are unique to their own game into the system that you're teaching? **Andy:** I think in the last few years, a lot of stuff has changed in martial arts. You could probably guess that 9 out of 10 of your students are on YouTube at least an hour a day looking at moves. I think nowadays it's really a natural thing. Most people, maybe you show them a few things, they like it, they will go to YouTube, they will research on their own, and then they will probably just try by rolling. I don't really focus too much on the stuff that is really special to the person because I feel like they will focus on that themselves anyways because it's their responsibility to find what works for them. I, as a teacher, really try to focus mostly on the basic framework which works for everybody, but make sure to make room in my training session for people to explore and experiment with a given position, so they can actually try stuff there or not necessarily that I guide them too much. For example, let's say the kimura trap is the topic of the session, like I said in the last podcast, I don't do too much fix techniques. Maybe I show a technique or two or three just to give them an idea to work with. Then I do minigames, mini sparrings, drills, and then I always make sure to add 10 to 15 minutes where people should or could just explore with the stuff we did. I tell them, "Maybe you are on boredom, get a kimura grip, start from there with your partner. Don't go hard, just try to get a feel with it and do whatever you like. I don't give a damn." Then you will see many people will mostly just repeat the stuff you've done in the lesson, so they can repeat it, so they can remember it better. Some people will do all kinds of stuff, maybe they've seen it on YouTube, maybe they come up with it. I don't care because I make sure I teach them the things I feel like are high percentage, but then I also give them the time to see for themself if they find something maybe they like. Then afterwards, we have position sparring or rolling anyways. If they play with something and then they get smashed while they're doing it on rolling, yes, they will probably not try it again. **Sonny:** I agree, especially with fundamentals for a beginner to learn, that needs to be codified into a solid system that these are the things you do, these are the things you don't do. Like, I think, find myself in a lot of times teaching something to beginners and saying, "This is the rule and when you get really good, you'll know when to break that rule," and just leaving that room open for them to express themselves down the track. That seems like to be an important part to actually keep it enjoyable for everyone who's training. **Andy:** The point is, I always want to make sure that I want them to add stuff to the system. There are a few things, I believe, I really stretch that I tell them, "You have to know this. If you don't do this stuff, you will suck because it's the best option. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Like you said, I don't know, maybe we spoke outside the podcast or something, but you also said with techniques, we can use them if it's evident that they work most of the times. We don't have to be too big on these concepts, principles, intuition. If for a given fixed problem there's a proven solution, then for God's sake, use it. **Sonny:** Yes. For me, the last one I can remember teaching like that was Power Half Nelson, where I was like, "Guys, add this to your game from this position. It works 100%." **Andy:** For example, the Straight Jacket System. Now we are at systems of Danaher again. It works. If it's 2020 and you don't teach trapping from back mount, you are doing something wrong. We know now it's a good idea to systematically trap hands once you're in back control. That's another good example like the kimura trap. If you have a fully-locked on-body triangle, the guy cannot do too much, right? **Sonny:** Yes. **Andy:** It's a good place to think in a systematic and technical way. **Sonny:** It's a good point that, yes, we've got to this stage, the systems, and our knowledge of grappling has evolved. I guess as we get more data and we get more reps in and more information, how do you see, then, how those systems have evolved over the years and then where they could go to or how they will keep evolving. **Andy:** Like you said in one of your past podcasts, everybody tries to make a system now out of everything. I feel like this is the trend. The world of jujitsu is going in that direction, but I think that's absolutely flawed approach. Because like I said, for many really confined, really constrained fixed position systems are incredibly powerful, but that's just a really, really, really small part of grappling. Or maybe not that small. It's a way bigger part of grappling compared to MMA. Because grappling by definition we tried to confine our opponent more and more. Again, as I said, these mind maps, these flow charts, these systems get blown out of proportion. They get bigger and bigger and bigger. That's not what I'm advocating at all. What I think people will try to find perfect solutions for situations where perfect solutions do not exist. That's what I meant when I talked about complex and dynamic systems which are unpredictable. These chaotic behaviours in these systems, it's not because they are not deterministic. That's actually a really interesting thing in system theory. You can use a really deterministic system, but just by sheer complexity, it gets impossible to calculate what's going to happen next. That's a fact. You can actually read all the stuff. Even computers don't work that way. A computer with-- I don't know how much calculations it can do in a second, but they cannot calculate some systems which are absolutely deterministic because there are just too many parts of that system who dynamically change all the time. That we have to keep in mind. We can, and we should not systemize everything because we will not able to do it. It's not going to happen. Do not try to make these mind maps bigger and bigger and find ways to connect them until you have that one big system. I can guarantee you, it's 100% scientifically proven, it will not happen and it will not work. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I'm sure there's people out there who, yes, they search for the perfect grappling system. **Andy:** But it doesn't work. Even huge machine learning algorithms don't work like that. That's what I try to get across with the stuff I write on my Instagram page. Even people get more and more technical or robotical in nature. Especially in sports and jujitsu. At the same time, science, especially computer science and machine learning and AI gets more and more organic. They take a look at how do a swarm of birds find a way to organize itself so it can actually communicate with each other. No bird in the swarm knows what they are doing, but in some way, the systems find ways to organize themselves. Many computer algorithms nowaday are modeled after these ideas and these principles I talked about in systems theory. It goes the other way around. Computer science gets more and more organic and the world of jujitsu tries to get more and more robotic. That's the paradigm shift I see and I dislike because it's backwards science. That's science from a hundred years ago. **Sonny:** Wow. Okay. Even though what we know in grappling is increasing and is being systemized, you're saying that the way that we're systemizing things is actually from old styles of science itself? **Andy:** Yes. When it comes to systems. Because maybe a hundred years ago, all this started. They saw, yes, some systems, they are unpredictable by design. It's not that we don't know enough of them. It doesn't matter how much we know. We will not be able to do exact calculations because it's an inherent property of that system, so to say. That's what I'm trying to get across. These attributes only arise if the system reaches a certain complexity. A small system does not have these properties. We can use our systematic methodical analytical way of thinking. It's fine, but we should also recognize when a system reaches that complexity where this kind of thinking falls apart altogether. **Sonny:** Okay. If we keep it small and constrained, then it will have more utility to us? **Andy:** Absolutely. **Sonny:** Part of that complexity, I guess, is whatever system we come up with. If it's too big, it's interacting with our opponent system as well. They might have a defensive system that they're putting in play that, who knows how that's going to interact with ours. Is it the fact that, where it's combat sport with two people, that's going to change the dynamics of every situation? **Andy:** Yes. Absolutely. Because if it wouldn't be like that, then we would reach a point where everybody does the same thing and all the responses are the same. I absolutely am 100% certain that this will never happen because it's impossible. If you tried to do that as a coach, I'd tell you, "You're doing it wrong." I would try to say that maybe a bit harsh or make it maybe a bit clearer by saying, "If a system is too big, it will fail. I guarantee you. Don't try to systemize everything. Try to find portions of grappling nested systems which are small enough so you can apply analytical thinking and recognize when you are in this constrained system, but also recognize when you are outside of the system. Then you can rely more on rules of thumb, heuristics, intuition, and so on. Imagine it like this. You have like a big fluid something where nobody knows what's going to happen. In that, there are pockets of predictability, and you should know when you are in the pocket or when you are in that fluid gluey weird stuff. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Working out the pockets of predictability out of that. **Andy:** Yes. **Sonny:** Then like teaching or when we're grappling, how do we bridge that gap between getting to that pocket of predictability or bridge that gap between teaching intuition and the systems? Can we clearly define that or do you just have to know? **Andy:** I don't know if that will exactly answer that question, but I think it maybe gets the feeling how I do it. For example, I always teach backwards or try to teach backwards. I know I'm not the only guy who does that. I know many coaches do. What I mean is I usually start with the finish and then I work backwards to set up and so on. Because I feel like, for example, A, it really helps your students if they have a clear aim in mind. Because I often see people maybe try to get a certain sequence across the students in maybe two or three weeks, and they start with the set-ups. The first few sessions people actually don't know why they do what they do because they have not seen the end, so all their actions are really, in a way they don't understand them and that's why they will not remember them as well. If you teach backwards and if you say, "Okay. Look I'm in back mode. I have both of his arms tripped. For now, you don't have to know how we got here. Just focus on that finish." If people get this, they can accept, "Okay. There are many ways I can get here. I don't have to know them now, but if I'm here, I can do that." Then if people got that, finish from back mount, then you can go backwards. You say, "Okay. Now we are in back mount. We don't have his arms trapped. Now let's learn how to trap the arms, so we can employ the finish we just learned the other week." Then people get that. Then you move away and away until you reach a point where, let's say, you start with a seat belt. As you progress from finishing somebody from back mount with both of his arms trapped, to going backwards, step by step until you reach the seat belt, and then you can teach people, guess what, I don't care how you get the seat belt. There are one hundred million ways to do it. Once you have the seat belt, you can try to do this stuff I showed you. I'm really big on finishes and I teach them mostly really systematic. Then at some point, I tell people, "How you get here, find your way. I don't care." Then, sometimes or maybe most of the times, I try to design a game or a position sparring, or playful way, so people can find intuitive ways to get there. Another good example is this single leg takedown. You are in on a single leg, you have the leg. From there, you can work somewhat systematic. I teach all my systems stuff, and when people already have the leg under control, and then I do a game, for example, where I tell people, "Okay, now let's do a game. Try to catch the other guy's leg and hold it for three seconds. If you hold it for three seconds, you get a point." People then [learn the finishes and techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) in a really systemized way, then I tell them, "Yes, there are 1 million ways to get to a single leg, let's do a game, you can try them here now, yourself." **Sonny:** Okay, that makes a lot of sense. You have playful games to get into a position that then you can implement your system. **Andy:** Yes. It depends a little bit on the skill or the thing we want to work on, but as a rule of thumb, I think that's a good way to look at it. For the entries and how to get to a point or a pocket of predictability, how we call it, I do games, and then for the system itself, I try to teach backwards, so people always have a sense of directionality and where they're going. Then the systems are really fleshed out, and then the setups and the entries are really a much more personalised intuitive thing. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I had something similar last year, where I was coaching guys to get ready for a beach wrestling competition, and we did a lot of rounds like that of just unintentionally just doing it, "Guys, just grab a single leg, just let's work there." Everyone's level went up, for sure, just from doing that, and I was really shocked, because I wasn't doing as much explicit teaching, but everyone, just looking around the room, the level went up for sure. I guess that's what you're explaining. **Andy:** What I mean by that is, even if I teach a system, that's what I mean, is you always need a sense of direction for your students, because the way they perceive the world, the way they act in the world always has an end to it. It's not meaningless. They need meaning in their practice. Let's say we start a whole series of single leg skills or single leg stuff, maybe we do a six-week course on that. In the first lesson, I tell them, "Okay, single leg takedown, part one. First, we need to get to that leg. Second, we need to keep that leg for some time to get our finish, and third, we need to finish." From the first session on, I make sure to do three games, at least, one for each of these fails. We can do for a beginner who never done a single leg takedown, I start with one game, for example, like, "Let's just do a game. Try to get control of the other guy's leg, hold it for three seconds, you score a point, go again." They already know, "Okay, one of the fundamental goals is, A, get to a leg." Then I do another game, for example, I tell them, "Okay, Person A gets in on a single leg, you hold it like this." Then I give them cues, "Keep your head up," all this good stuff, "Keep your elbows tight." All that stuff. Then I just give them cues and tell them, "Okay, the other guy tries to escape a single leg, try to hold it and control it as long as possible." They get a feeling of the position, but they still have a sense of why they do it. They understand, "Okay, now I try to hold that leg." It's not like you just tell them, "That is the single leg position. You have to do this, this, this. Keep your head up, your elbows tight, look this way or that way." It's not like they try to just mimic what you showed them, but they already know why they do it and what the end goal is. What I'm trying to get across is, of course they will not do everything right at the first session, but I want to instill a sense of directionality and meaning, so I can already show them why the stuff I will show them is important. I want to tweak it, so to say. I want to give them an experience of yes, holding someone's leg for an extended period of time is not easy, it's hard. You have to find ways to make it better, and they already know that, because from day one, they experienced that themselves. Then I try to add to the experience, more and more cues, more and more tips, so to say, how to make their experience better. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's very different to telling somebody, "Look, I show you now, the perfect position of a single leg," and then you show them all the small details, and then they try to remember all the small details. They will not be able to do it because they have no idea why they would do it, because they have not experienced it themselves. If you start off with a purposefully imperfect way to do it, and you know if you do these games, it will look like crap in the beginning, for sure, but it's important that they have an experience already you can build on. **Sonny:** Yes. Okay. That's important to actually give the students the opportunity to fail in the beginning, rather than just, "Hey, here's some non-responsive partner drilling that you can do with perfect technique." Give them a chance to say, "Hey, this is fail. This is really difficult. I now know why I have to do this with perfect technique and get better at it, or just pick those things up, intuitively." **Andy:** It's all the trial and error thing. Let's keep the holding a single leg game, for example. What I like to do is, I start off with the game, I give them the rules, I give them the goal, and I show them nothing, just so they can get a feeling, they know how they do stuff and they fail a lot, which is important, but the importance is they know now why we do the leg stuff. Then after we've done the game for a few minutes, I show them a few cues. I tell them, "Okay, now you've done that, and you all notice that this and that is hard to do. Many of you fail at that, so maybe try this one and this one, because it will aid you make it better." Then they should try it, like most people do technique with a partner together, not too much against each other, maybe even just going through the form. Then I go back to the game and say, "Okay, now do it again. Try to do the stuff I showed you." I have, A, let them experiment, let them fail, B, show them ways how they could do it better, and, C, give them the opportunity to check if what you showed them actually works for them. **Sonny:** Okay, yes, that makes sense. Then, from that chaotic stage of failure, we're slowly working towards a point where they can get into that system of predictability. Does that sound roughly right? **Andy:** Yes, it's both. Because at the same time, they get more intuition. Because if we work on that topic, they will have a lot of real time experiences, because it's a game or a sparring in some way. On top of that, I also, at the technical or systematic side, from my side, was still never leaving the problem we're trying to solve. It's more like I tell them, "This is the problem, try to solve it. You guys have problems, I give you ideas to make these problems go away, so your solutions get better and better over time." It's not so much like, "This is the solution. Just do it." Because people don't learn like that. If you just try to present them a solution, in my present experience, that's not going to work well. **Sonny:** Yes, if it did. **Andy:** Yes, and that's the point. That's what I mean when I write about over teaching. In the end, we want to help our students, and most coaches think, because they want to help, that by presenting them the best way to do something right away, they help the students. What I believe is, if you do that, your students will have a really, really, really, hard time to learn, remember and understand what you actually showed them, because they have not reached that point of realization you have because you have experience, you have seen it, you have done it, and you just try to convey your experience to them, but you should understand as a teacher that learning does not work like this. Failure and all this is a part of the process. All you can do is try to speed up the process, but you should never try to skip it all to the end. **Sonny:** That's a very good point, because I think that might be counter-intuitive because I feel like sometimes when we present information like I've made all these years of mistakes, here's the information that I figured out so you guys don't have to make those mistake that I made. **Andy:** That's catastrophic. Absolutely. **Sonny:** It's catastrophic, \[laughs\] but you're saying, yes, they know those years of making mistakes are what allowed me to or coach to present that information, so we have to just find ways to still allow the students to make those mistakes, but with our experience, allow them to make them faster or better or more guided, is that? **Andy:** Yes. One way to look at this, we have-- Let's just take a look at the two extremes. The one extreme would be like you said right now, you say, "Okay, after years of experience, I've come to that conclusion, does this the optimal solution, just trust me. Just know that for repetition, and you will become a god of jujitsu." That's the one extreme. This extreme is, in my opinion, the worst thing you could do. The other extreme would be, "Yes, I've seen in a video, people tend to grab the other guy's leg, start from that position and just find ways to get the other guy down." This extreme would be-- Actually, I think this would work really, really well, but it would also take a lot of time. If you would have enough people in your room, and you would give them enough time to play this little game, grab somebody's leg because you've seen it in a UFC fight, figure it out for yourself, try to find ways to get them down, this process would actually work really, really, really fucking well, but we should try to accelerate that, because you'd like to set for your pitch wrestling thing. Just imagine people doing this every day, three hours a day. I can tell you after a few months, they will be really good at single-leg takedowns and single leg defence. What we can do is try to use that power and accelerate it a bit more. What I mean by that is, on top of that, you now give them cues based on tips and ideas based on the experience. Instead of just letting them figure it out all by themselves, you tell them, "You know, a little game, right? Try this one, try it yourself. I tell you, it will work really good." Then they try it in a real-life situation, and they see, "Huh, yes, that actually really worked good." You give them ideas, you give them cues, but it's never disconnected from their own personal experience and from a real-life practice, which has meaning. **Sonny:** That makes sense. You're using your experience to inform the cues that you give them, the teaching points that you give them. **Andy:** You guide them a little bit. You guide them a little bit, but not too much. **Sonny:** Not too much. That makes sense, that if you're guiding someone, if you have more experience or less experiences, probably it means that you're going to be able to guide them better if you have more experience in that given field, as long as you both guiding them the same. **Andy:** Yes. That makes the coach-- It's not like he's the big guy who knows all this stuff, and just the more he knows, the more he can tell you, but he's still really important because it's important to know which students needs a certain cue when, because I feel like if you tell them too much, at a certain point, that's not good. If you tell them too less, you probably don't accelerate as they're learning as much as you could do. You should always take a look at what-- Think about it more like you give cues all the time and less like you present them with a fixed, perfect form right away. You just let them figure it out and you see like, "Uh, this guy could really get more success if I tell them, he should keep his head up, for example." Then you see another guy who maybe does it intuitively, all by himself. It would be stupid to tell that guy to keep that head up because he already does it instinctively, and now you've moved that instinctive, very natural thing to something more abstract objective, which he has to remind himself of because people actually do a lot of stuff really well even if you don't tell them. I always noticed that when I teach children, I teach many children, especially in Judo, from five years up to adults, and if you just let them roll, five years old will do so much stuff right. They will also do a lot of stuff wrong, obviously, but they will also do stuff right, and there's no need to tell them this stuff because they already do it, because then that way you would make something implicit, explicit, and that's not a good thing. They should do it in a way which they don't have to think about it. That's the angle. **Sonny:** Yes. If someone is doing something naturally already, overloading them with information on the technical side about why they're doing that, is the opposite of what our angle should be. We should be wanting everyone to just be doing things naturally and by instincts. **Andy:** Yes, and that's actually a good way to go back to system thinking, because, for example, if I tell you to throw a ball, okay, so you tell the kids, "Throw that ball as far as you can." If you now tell them, "Yes, you have to grip everything at a certain angle, and your wrist must be like this, and then your elbow should be like that, and your shoulder should be like that, and then you twist your spine in a certain way and actually, the feet are also very important and your stance have to be a certain width", if you tell them all this stuff, it's too many poles to juggle. At the same time, it's actually not necessary, because if you just let them try to throw a ball, I guarantee you, 9 out of these 10 things, they already do instinctively. 1 out of these 10 things, they don't do. This now you can try to fix with them. Trying to over-represent something right away is bad because systems have a way to self organize themselves automatically. If you grip the doorknob and try to turn it or something, it's not like you think about the action of your finger joints and your wrist joints and your shoulder and elbow joints. No. You have a clear purpose, I want to grab that doorknob, and your body will automatically self organize itself, the system so to say, in a certain shape, without the part of the system knowing actually what they do. This property of self-organization, for example, is again, an idea and a principle and concept from system theory. A swarm of fish has a way to organize a certain way without the single fish knowing what they do, but the property of the swarm is in the complex whole. If there was like the leader fish who would have told every fish, "Now guys, that's the plan. We do this and you go that." It would never work. \[laughs\] It would never work. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] That's funny. Figurehead they have the idea of the coach fish get in line with. **Andy:** Yes, it would never work, because that's not how system work. The point is, if you see that in the way of certain person tries to do a move, or if you see there's a part in that system which does something wrong, then try to fix that part. Don't try to fix the whole system. **Sonny:** That's kind of kneading it all back together and how we go into intuition and systems or combining. **Andy:** That's what I meant by system theory. It's not so much that you have to know all this really deeply scientific stuff. System thinking is like a way to understand the world, that most things are not single paths, but most things around you are a really interconnected system of many, many, many parts, but the key point is that all these systems have certain properties, or maybe not all of them, but most of these systems have certain properties which follow certain principles. Like I said, like self-organization, autoregulation, adaptability, emergence, there are many of these cool buzzwords you can all look up on Wikipedia. Actually, if you do that, you will learn a lot, because you don't have to know all of the nitty details to understand that our world and these systems work really differently than a single part of them. Your body is a system. Grappling is a system. Nature is a system. When I talk like this, I don't mean it in the way a methodical approach, no, I mean it in the way in the first definition I read in the beginning, as a set of things working together, which is mostly not methodical and analytic. **Sonny:** Yes, that's beautiful, Andy. I think we've covered a lot of ground there, and it's really given me a better understanding of your thoughts on the matter, and a better understanding of systems overall, and how they can be used in grappling. Is there anything on that topic that you'd like to add onto the end there that maybe we didn't get to? **Andy:** I feel like all the systems, the theory stuff, it's really complicated stuff. I feel like, especially in the beginning of the episode, I didn't get it across as I liked. If you find that interesting, go to my Instagram page. I wrote a lot of articles on system theory and how it relates to grappling. Read those, because there I really had time to get it across more coherently. Read those. As always, what I write, it's not an explanation, it's more like these are some cool ideas. Understand why they are really important and relevant, research them on your own, try to get deeper into the topic. I cannot cover all these things in depth on an Instagram post, but I can give you a way to say, "Here, look at this stuff. That's pretty cool. You should really learn about this." Read those, and buy the book Chaos of James Gleick. It's a really good book. **Sonny:** Give me a little teaser of that book then. **Andy:** It's basically the first book I've read on that topic, and why I started to delve deeper and deeper because I think someone gave it to me as a Christmas present, and I was already studying physics. I read this book, it's called Chaos: The Amazing Science of the Unpredictable, I have it right here, by James Gleick. That book is basically a good introduction to all the stuff I talked about, to the systems, and especially chaotic systems and why this stuff is not some esoteric voodoo, but actually highly, highly, highly scientific and mathematic. I was lucky enough to understand most of the signs and most of the math in the book, but I think it's a good read for everybody. Especially if you are interested in physics, mathematics and science, it's a really, really good book, because it will help you to see the world in a little bit of a different light, and see that-- Just read it, it's interesting. **Sonny:** Just read it, I like that. It sounds fascinating. You've also got a Patreon now, and you got a bit of work going on behind the scenes there I know? **Andy:** Yes. I made a Patreon channel, because at the same time, I want that most of the stuff I do is free, because I feel like-- Basically, I just get ideas across, I don't own these ideas. I wouldn't have them if I hadn't had access to all these ideas, because they are all there. I believe ideas should be free, and as long as I do the stuff I do, which is mostly educational, I guess, I want it to be free. But still, I put in a lot of work, and I actually try to do more stuff, like maybe a podcast soon and maybe instructional videos and clips, and this takes time, but also some financial support. All this audio stuff, for example, it's not that cheap, and it's also pretty complicated. If people would like to support the stuff I do, just go to my Patreon, and I will try to do more stuff for my Patreons soon. I'm already working on something really cool. I can tease you actually what it is. If you listen to this podcast, you know something nobody knows so far. I did these ADCC studies. I did notes on all actions that occurred on ADCC 2017 and '19. I will try to slowly get all my notes digitalized, so people have a really convenient way to look at every action and every move that ever happened in the last ADCCs, so they can look it up themselves. Basically, I want to do an archive or a play-by-play of everything that happened at ADCC in the last five years. People can just take a look, they type in single leg, for example, and then they can see all single legs that happened, and they get a timestamp. They can open the match, look at the single leg, and I want to do that for all the moves. Like I said, that takes a lot of time, but I'm currently working on that. **Sonny:** Yes, that sounds like a massive undertaking. **Andy:** yes. I have it, but the thing is, I did it by hands, these things for ADCC, so I have it in my notebook. Now I'm just trying to make it in a way so people can use it and such digitally and stuff. **Sonny:** Would you say you're trying to systemize it? **Andy:** Not so much systemize it. **Sonny:** Okay. **Andy:** It's more like, so people can just take a look. Like if your instructor tells you, "This is how you should do a single leg," then you can look at this archive and say, "I don't know." Type in single leg, see how the rest of the world do it and then decide for yourself. **Sonny:** That's good there, that sounds like it'd be-- it's worth a lot for anyone who's interested in learning about this stuff. Well, that's been great, Andy. I'd love to have you back again on sometimes in the future to talk about another topic, because I find these chats just inspirational in a way. I really like the ideas you're putting out there and everything that you're doing. I feel it's important for people who are interested in this to get their heads around and understand, because I'm just a big fan. I'd love to maybe chat about, we're talking a lot about how the fish and organizing. One thing I've seen you've mentioned is, how grappling is just part of human nature. It's just that deep instincts of play and how pinning's natural for kids in the animal kingdom, and that might be a good topic in the future to go into. I don't know how you feel about that. **Andy:** Yes, thanks. Of course, I could talk about this stuff forever because I'm really passionate about this. I also want to point out that, all these ideas, I'm just repeating what other people have written and said somewhere else. I don't own any of this stuff. I'm not trying to be the big genius. It's just I read stuff, I find it really interesting. I learn from a lot of people, and most of the credit probably belongs to them. I just try to find ways to bring it together in a way which feels right to me. If you can learn from that, that's cool. For example, on my Instagram page, I made a reference post where I said, “Look up all these people," I mentioned in my post. Also special shout-out to Ryan Hall obviously, which I think is a great guy for Brazilian jujitsu. At this point, I want to point out that people should really take a close look at Steve Morris, because I feel like this guy is a really, really hidden gem in the combat sports and martial arts world. I learned a lot from him. Take a look at him, he's a really special guy. If you tell him you do martial arts or combat sports, he will hate you, because this guy is literally just a fighter, which is now, I think over 70 years old, and moves like a 38 years old. It's incredible. Special shout-out to Steve Morris. Take a look at his stuff. He really deserves it. **Sonny:** Yes. I looked into his stuff when you first mentioned it, and then I tried to-- I found it hard to understand, but I think actually after our conversation, it's making more sense. **Andy:** Yes, it's really hard stuff, but it's good stuff. Actually, I have a science background, and it took me really, really aware to understand most of the things he's saying. Lots of what I do is that I actually learned from him that the things I learned in philosophy, I learned in science and physics, you can use this stuff for fighting, in his case, or for grappling in my case. I learned a lot directly from him, but more than that, I actually realized that I can use this scientific stuff as a way to think about grappling. **Sonny:** That's awesome. Yes, I'll be going back to look at his stuff now actually because I really feel that what we've discussed can help put a lot of more of the pieces of the puzzling in place for those pockets of predictability. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Andy, thanks so much. School of grappling on Instagram, schoolofgrappling.com. Check you out on Patreon as well. Look, plenty of good stuff. I really appreciate your time, and hope to do this again in the future. **Andy:** Yes, thanks for having me. **Sonny:** Thanks so much. Cheers. ![School Of Grappling Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/schoolofgrappling2_tsbb_promo3.jpg "School Of Grappling Interview › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. 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SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Bruce Hoyer On The Flipped Classroom Teaching Model For Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bruce-hoyer-flipped-classroom-model-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** June 10, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Bruce Hoyer - Reverse Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bruce_hoyer-1024x576.jpg "Bruce Hoyer › Sonny Brown")I talk to Bruce Hoyer about the reverse classroom for Jiu-Jitsu training. Bruce coaches out of a small town in Dakota that has produced 7 UFC fighters and uses innovative teaching strategies including the flipped or reverse classroom model of instruction. The flipped classroom is an instructional strategy that has the students study the techniques at home on YouTube and then come into class ready to drill. We discuss his use of this teaching model in-depth, using language learning software and [spaced repetition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure-learning/ "Utility of Self-Directed Learning, Studying Tape and Optimising Lesson Structure With Lachlan Giles") and other innovative uses of technology for teaching BJJ. ## Listen To Bruce Hoyer ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### The flipped classroom for Jiu-Jitsu Bruce explains how moving technical instruction out of class and into short pre-class videos gives students more mat time for drilling, feedback and live practice. The model also lets different experience levels arrive prepared for different material. ### Building a structured curriculum The conversation looks at the shift from deciding what to teach on the drive to the gym toward a planned curriculum. Bruce describes using digital tools to organise lessons, track learning and give students a clearer path through the material. ### Technology, spaced repetition and retention Bruce and Sonny discuss how ideas from language learning, spaced repetition and online video can help students revisit information at useful intervals instead of relying on a single demonstration in class. ### The coach as facilitator Removing the long demonstration does not remove the coach. Bruce describes spending more time circulating, observing, correcting and adding detail while students are actively training. ## Key Takeaways - Pre-class video can create more time for active practice and coaching. - A planned curriculum is more reliable than choosing material class by class. - Spaced repetition can help students retain technical information over time. - The flipped model changes the coach’s role from presenter to active facilitator. ## Resources - [Next Edge Academy](https://nextedgeacademy.com/) - [Next Edge Academy on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/nextedgeacademy/) - [Combat Learning](https://combatlearning.com/), mentioned in the conversation as another discussion of the flipped-classroom approach ## Bruce Hoyer Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Welcome to episode number 13 of The Sonny Brown Breakdown, a podcast where we discuss the training, teaching, health, and education of mixed martial arts to help you find the difference that makes the difference. I'm your host, Sonny Brown. In this episode, I talk to Bruce Hoyer from Next Edge Academy. He coaches out of a small town in Dakota that has produced seven UFC fighters and uses a variety of innovative teaching strategies, including the flipped classroom model of instruction. The flipped classroom model works as an instructional strategy that has the students study the techniques at home on YouTube and then come into class, ready to drill. We discuss his use of this teaching model in depth and also using language-learning software and spaced repetition to help with information retention and other technological changes in teaching Jiu-Jitsu. Now, let's go to the podcast. G'day, Bruce. How are you? Thanks very much for joining me today. **Bruce Hoyer:** Hey, not too bad. It's not very often that I get to talk to somebody that's on a completely different time zone from me. I think it's your late night and my early morning. **Sonny:** That's it. I appreciate us coming together, opposite sides of the world to share some knowledge. It's going to be good. I really appreciate it. What got me onto you is I was listening to a podcast. I think it was the [Combat Learning Podcast](https://combatlearning.com/ "https://combatlearning.com/"), and you were discussing your use of the flipped classroom model of learning in your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy and I think MMA Academy as well. I'm familiar with the flipped model of classroom learning myself just from my work as a PE teacher, but it's something that I haven't really heard of being used in a martial arts context until I was listening to your podcast. I wonder if we can just start off, maybe you can explain to the people who haven't heard of what that is, just exactly what the flipped classroom model of learning actually is. **Bruce:** For us, the flipped classroom model is that we take the instruction portion out, now that videos have gotten much better, we take that instruction portion out of the classroom. We actually have them watch that beforehand. Then when they come in to train at the gym, pretty much 95% to 100% of that time is done drilling and then us watching that done. For me it's tough, because if I sit there and I show something for 10 minutes and I've lost 10 minutes where that person loses that valuable time. Now, I think with everybody being at home so much that they see that as a real valuable time. For me, that was the big thing. The other big thing is the fact that all of us are coming in at different levels. Maybe you have somebody that's brand-new and then you have somebody that's training, getting ready for a fight in the UFC. All those guys are at different levels. Just being able to tailor a class to that, for us providing all that information in a curriculum to watch it at home before you come in. That was the big change for us. **Sonny:** Instead of then people come in, you spend 20 minutes showing them the techniques, pretty standard style of running a Jiu-Jitsu class, you've actually filmed the videos beforehand and made them available online for everyone to look at before they come into class, yes? **Bruce:** Yes, exactly. For the most part, it's been a really good experience. I like it a lot. I think I lose a little bit of that connection of when I teach, trying to be more of an entertainer, but it definitely you get to keep a lot of the coaching and instruction in there. **Sonny:** That's interesting you mentioned that about losing that part of being an entertainer, maybe. **Bruce:** It's big. When people come in it's tough, because you have to really come around and teach in a flipped classroom style and feel like you still have to be an entertainer a little bit. I think any Jiu-Jitsu coach, any coach has to be a little bit of that to keep them engaged and keep them learning. **Sonny:** Yes, right. You find that when you'll be coming round and it'll be the smaller groups, you feel that there's something missing there? **Bruce:** Yes, you have to replace it with, as you come around with those smaller groups that are doing it, you have to maybe say, "Okay, you can also do this. Add this, or put this in there." Also, be a little bit of a-- Whatever your teaching style is, funny guy, or whatever it is in order to keep those students engaged. **Sonny:** Interesting. That makes sense, but it's a big departure from the traditional style of teaching Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, where we've got the coach at the front and he knows he's the dictator or such, or he's the know-all of all the techniques and we have to go to him. You've really flipped it on it's head. \[chuckles\] What actually made you decide to look into this avenue of teaching, or what drew you towards it? **Bruce:** We live in South Dakota. South Dakota, for everybody that's not familiar is really a rural area. We have about 200,000 in this metric area, but predominantly, when I started, the closest Jiu-Jitsu black belt was-- There was one four hours away and then the next one after that was probably 10 hours away. A lot of our learning-- We had a purple belt that was teaching us that was from Pedro Sauers Gym. Back then it was in Salt Lake City. He moved here for a while, but for the most part, it was a lot of us just trying to piecemeal things together. I think that's what started-- A lot of it is that, "Okay, I'm already doing a lot of this for myself," and turning this almost into a little bit more of a system. Then the second end, when I became a coach, every time I was driving into the gym-- I think a lot of coaches used to be this way. I think they're getting a lot better with it now, but they used to be driving in the car and they were like, "Oh man, what am I going to show today? I'm going to do a half guard series today." They figured that out about five minutes before they come into the class, or when they come into the class. They come into the class and because they're a black belt and they know a good series from half guard, that's what they’re doing today. Maybe that's not the best thing for the students today, but it's what I decided I wanted to show today. That used to always make me feel like crap. I think there's the other avenue of, "Okay, we're going to show this series for a week, or we're going to show this series for a month, or this position." Which I think is really good as well. We did that for a little bit, then just slowly, as I saw students that were in the beginner levels that were brand-new, and then the students that were advanced, I had to [teach two or three different techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) depending on what their levels were. Then finally, I decided I'm going to start doing it this way. I had seen it done before on some other sports. I know that it had been done in football. There was actually a couple of Australian folks that I think, same thing, the PE teachers that were a big influence. **Sonny:** I'll have to look into that and see if I could find out who they were. I might be able to get in touch with them. It started then for you, you mapped out your whole curriculum and then you realized, "Hey, I've got this all planned out in front of me what I'm going to teach." Was it a case of, "Why don’t I film these techniques now and give it to the students beforehand so they know." Was it a natural evolution? **Bruce:** Yes. It's been constantly evolving. I think, now, it's to the point where we're tinkering with the idea of, "Okay, how are we going to present this information?" When we first started doing it, it was on Evernote. The nice part about it is that I would send them-- It took a little bit longer to do, but essentially, I would film four techniques, and after each class, send that student another class and then they could make notes on their Evernote and everything. That actually worked pretty well. It just took a while because I had to email or add in Evernote that lesson to every person's notebook, if you will, that did the class. **Sonny:** Was everyone had an individual Evernote that you would then update for all them individually? **Bruce:** Yes. **Sonny:** Okay. That sounds pretty labor-intensive. Did you stick with that or did you move onto something else? **Bruce:** No, we switched. The second iteration was us doing a learning website that everybody could follow the track. That worked really well. Then the latest one now is we have an app, basically where they can do the same thing. You had to learn programming languages on top of that now, because I wanted to build it myself. That's where it's gone. It needs to be efficient as well. If we have 40, 50 people on class and two or three classes a day, that gets to be an hour and a half of my time that I'm eating out that doesn't necessarily have to be there. **Sonny:** From the perspectives of the students then, say I've been there a couple of months or something, what does my week look like? I know I want to do some classes. How would I go about preparing for those classes or what type of perspective do I have as a student on this? **Bruce:** Sure. This is one of the things we're switching back to. For the longest time, we had it as a scaffolding system, if you're familiar with that, instead of teaching the Americana, Kimura, straight armbar kind of thing. **Sonny:** Sure, classic. **Bruce:** Exactly. We're going to do this. If they move their arm this way, we're going to do this. We're going to move it straight. You're going to do this. From everything that I've read, as far as coaching and teaching, that's due to interference. If I teach you all three, you muddle through all three of them. Say you were to start, we have basically one technique from every position, or I should say one offensive and one defensive technique from every position. Then you get through all those, and then you would basically move. Then you add a second thing after that. You're adding one thing to each position. Maybe you would do maybe a pass from half guard, a pass from close guard. Basically there's a list, but you get the idea. One thing from each position, each standard position, and then one offensive thing where you do that. Then the next time you come through, maybe you'd learn another pass or a different way of doing that or a different submission. We've started building on that. Then we went back to that same model where it's like, "I'm going to give you a position and I want you to work on this position, maybe for a week or two." I think we're going to get back to the scaffolding side of things where it's back to one thing at a time and rotating through several different positions. There's roughly 25-30 positions rotating through learning one thing each time. Feel good with that, move on to the next position. **Sonny:** Okay. So your classes are set up in the way that there's going to be a position going in and then the students look up the videos of those positions and then they can pick what they want to do from there? Is that--? **Bruce:** Right. That's the way that it has been for a little bit, that we switched back to just because it seems so weird for a Jiu-Jitsu side to stray away from, "This is your positional game plan," kind of thing. I think that's probably the best one there. Once they're past blue belt, in the purple belt, I think that's good, where they can look through that list. Anyways, they would go through that scaffolding system first, and then once you're blue or purple belt level, I want you going through those positional things. **Sonny:** That makes sense. They're working through their positions. How do you divide the class up in terms of belt level or skill level then or--? **Bruce:** We don't. Everybody in this is in the same class. We don't have a beginners or an intermediate class. The way that the class works is one person drills from their series for 10 minutes and the other person drills for 10 minutes. We do like the, either no warm-up or the slightest of warm-ups. Then we're going to drilling. One person will drill strictly for 10 minutes, the other person drills for 10 minutes. Then what I want that person to do, we'll possibly do a little bit of a warm-up after that. Then we're going to go into live positional rounds for three minutes from their position. You would do your position for three minutes top and bottom, and then that person does their position for three minutes top and bottom. Then we're coming back to that drilling portion. You drill for 10 minutes, I will drill for 10 minutes. We find somebody new to go with for another three-minute round of positional rounds from there. Then you're coming back, so that you're just-- So you end up doing that series three times, because what I want is, "Let's try to [learn this technique](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) in rote. This is how you grab the arm. We're going to do this. We're going to put the leg over and that's how the technique's done." Then I want them to try that. The nice part about this is that you get a real test on whether or not this is going to work. If the setup is going to work, because that person, that other person that you're going live with doesn't know what you drilled that day, or most likely doesn't know what they drilled that day. Compared to the other side of things where, if you're teaching armbar at the gym, everybody knows that, "Okay, you're going to be trying to go for this technique." At least you should be, because that's what you're learning that day. Everybody has a heightened sense of what they're doing. Going back and forth with that, I like that person to-- Whatever moves you're learning that day, don't just try to do your A-game from half guard. I want you learning these new techniques that you're working on from half guard. Try to implement those. Where do they go wrong? Then when I come back, rather than me spending more time coaching, I'm tinkering with them, saying, "What was your mainproblem?" They had their weight too far back. Let's try to get their weight loaded up or let's try to get a hook underneath or something there. So then, that third time when they come around, each time it should look a little cleaner, a little better, and then it's nice to just be able to sit the students, say, "What's the real problems that you're having with this technique?" **Sonny:** I really like that because I've had the problem in the past where, of course you show a technique and it's one of those moves that, if the people can see it coming a mile away or they just they know, everyone's just been shown and it and the students don't get that success with it. Then we know that a little bit of success will give them encouragement to keep learning and keep trying with the technique. I really like that as a way to increase the chances of early success while they're learning. Makes a lot of sense. I think that's huge though. Students are coming in and this seems to be the big benefit of this style. They're starting to drill straight away, right? Is that--? **Bruce:** Yes. For me, it's always been weird was that, I enjoyed doing the warm-ups before the rolling portion. For me it's tough. You're going to warm up. Then for me maybe you're going to sit down like in a regular classroom. You're gonna sit down for 5-10 minutes, watch the coach explain something, and then kind of get into it. I'm not doing a whole lot of physical activity before any other rolling stuff and so splitting that up. The more time that I can get with that student actually trying the technique than me explaining it, the better I feel. Just because that's valuable time for them means they're not going to be in the gym all the time. **Sonny:** That makes sense. We might spend roughly 15-20 minutes at the start of a lesson instructing. That's a third of the lesson. If they can get that time to instead be drilling from stuff that they've already picked up while they're watching on the way to the gym, that's huge. You multiply that out over weeks and months and years. That's a lot more time that they can spend actually working techniques instead of listening to the coach at the front which may grab their attention that day, maybe they don't. **Bruce:** For me, it's about having them try it and practice and actually try to implement it and see where the problems are, because it makes me a little bit better coach. Like, "Okay, if I can see that 10 people right now are struggling with this particular way of doing this technique, then maybe I can switch the way that I teach it a little bit." **Sonny:** That brings up the change of role of yourself there as a coach. It seems like a pretty big change. One that will probably cause a lot of traditional coaches to be hesitant to make it because it really reshapes your position in there. How have you found that? **Bruce:** For me, it was weird because I never really accepted the role initially. I feel like-- When our coach left, I was left as a purple belt in this area. Well before I wanted to be able to teach. I was still competing quite a bit and traveling all the time. I always felt like I was just with them rather than being that coach. For me, I don't feel like that mentality ever was there. That didn't have to change as much. I felt like whether-- Because we had a couple of guys that were getting ready for the ultimate fighter, then a couple of guys that were competing in Jiu-Jitsu pretty heavily. I didn't feel like I was that good, so I was always trying to help those guys out for the longest time. Then ended up started competing a bunch myself. I've never felt like I was the coach. I always felt like I was also just the same level, if you will. **Sonny:** Then you've got that all set up. Have you run into any problems with students then, they come into class and they're like "I haven't watched the technique." They just, "I haven't done the homework." It's just the best-laid plans go to waste and you back to teaching it in front of everyone? **Bruce:** Oh, for sure, and I've wanted to. I definitely think that it makes me pull my hair out. The more effort that I put into these lesson plans and the more effort that I put into making this as easy as possible, the more-- Not the more, but the times that it fails me. It just actually just tears my heart. It just kills. \[chuckles\] That's the tough part. I do think that there's a certain student that is best for. I've said it before to you. I think this isn't for everybody. I think there's a lot of students, myself included, that would much rather just have me show the technique and then being able to copy that technique and feel good. They don't want to have to think as much inside the class. The nice part is is that if they didn't do their homework before and they want to come in and take their 15 minutes I would normally spend coaching them and watching the technique, they can. It's really in the hindsight of things and not losing out any more time than they would have if the coach was showing it anyways. We have a separate room where they **Bruce:** can go in, put their headphones on, watch the stuff and then come out and do it. **Sonny:** Nice. **Bruce:** For sure, I think it isn't for everyone and I think there's a large group of [students that would rather have me teach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) the traditional way. **Sonny:** Yes. Yes. No, that is a interesting point about, probably is just less thinking, less effort for students to put in ahead of, to take some extra time out of their day, obviously. Which brings up, I guess, how you've actually been presenting the information in the videos. My tendency, I would think is if I, okay, I'm going to give it to them ahead of time. I'm going to pack in every little detail I possibly can into this video and they can sit there and watch it or make it the encyclopedia, but then obviously that's probably the longer you make it, the less people are actually going to watch it. How have you actually found the best way to package that information up? **Bruce:** For us, the videos are super short, maybe like a minute and a half long, and then we have gifs for every single one, and that should really be, for us, a reference. Looking at that, that's another weird thing too. On all of our classes, their lesson plan's on their phone. Everybody has their cell phones out on the mats. It looks ridiculous. They'll look real quick, and they should have already watched the video so that little gif should just be like, "Yep. Okay. The hand needs to be there. I'm doing this." The videos are about a minute long and then we go into further explanation either through audio or through longer videos that they can watch at home as to the finer details. For me, I would rather teach it in like a kind of a group where it's "Okay, this is the general idea." Okay. Then the second series through, okay, this is detail number two, because we don't want to do this. Maybe we're doing like a rear naked choke and we want to try to hide that hand or we want to try to get this behind the head faster kind of thing. Just adding into those little details. It's funny stuff. I think Stephan Kesting actually just had a video on that same kind of idea not too long ago with Bernardo Faria. **Sonny:** Yes. Okay. Nice, super-short videos, to the point. No, "Huge honor for me guys," at the start to drag things out, it's just-- **Bruce:** Yes. That's part of the showmanship that you lose in this style and there's definitely something to that. I think people, when they come to the Jiu-Jitsu class, yes they want to roll, but they also want to be entertained a little bit. So part of the tough side of this is that I lose out on a little bit of that unless I can make that connection with the students one-on-one while I'm sitting down with them going through their stuff. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. What other then troubles had you run into in the implementation of this when you've brought it in or is there any other speed bumps you've hit? **Bruce:** I think the technology side is tough. Be it through Evernote, I think that was one of the easier ones. The website one was really tough just because it seemed like for some reason everybody had, "Hey, I need to have my password reset." or "I need to do this." That was time when it would go into the gym and either I was having to reset a password or help them out with that. Maybe it's just lack of computer knowledge, which is always surprising to me now because it's in 2020, it seems like everybody can do stuff on their phone and everything. I think a little bit of that, just the struggle with technology was a little rough as well, but other than that, it's been good. Trying to find out that, but I think this is with all jujitsu coaches, trying to find out that best balance to have, Students learn at the best rate as far as, like I talked about before, "Okay, do I show one technique and then we go to another position? I show another one or do I show this whole series? Then now maybe show them four series." This has been six months and I haven't shown another position for a long time. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. Then how far out ahead have you got the curriculum mapped out for your students? **Bruce:** We've got probably like 1400 videos on there. Realistically, that's supposed to be the-- Once they get past the scaffolding part where they're learning one thing at a time and then going into the positions, the positions really are just, they just continually rotate through, and so I'll continue to add stuff onto that as we see it happen in competition and things like that. That's all laid out as far as, "Okay. I want you go into this position so you're doing half guard. Once you feel comfortable with all the material in there, then you move onto the next one and then the next one, and the next one." The nice part about that is, is that if you miss a class or two or three, you haven't really missed anything from that series. You can just jump back into that series and go there. Compared to some of the other classes where, if you miss two or three days, maybe a coach taught another series that you didn't get to learn, and so that can be tough at times too. **Sonny:** Yes, I know that, where you teach something and someday you weren't here for the counter, so you're going to be getting caught with that one for a while. **Bruce:** It's weird. I want to get super nerdy into it now. I've started it, but I'll probably never release it, where like-- Have you ever heard of Anki before? The spaced repetition software? **Sonny:** I've heard spaced repetition but I'm not sure of the software. **Bruce:** Okay. Think of the software as like a really-- It's free software and it's sweet. I use this for language learning. The nice part is that-- **Sonny:** Is it flashcards? **Bruce:** Yes, it's flashcards. **Sonny:** Got you. **Bruce:** This sounds completely hokey, and so go with me for a second, but I love it where in jujitsu, if I show not necessarily techniques or concepts, maybe we're doing like leg drag or something. For me leg drag as a concept is you're doing that from a lot of different, even though it's a technique, it's, for me, more of a concept. Taking a lot of these concepts and putting them in this flashcard system and then having that system on the bottom, basically it has, "I don't know this at all. I kind of know this, I know this pretty well. I really know this." Then that, depending on what you answer, it throws it in that mix way more. The next iteration I would love to do is basically you're doing a ton of different techniques or a ton of different concepts, but based on your level of how well you feel, how comfortable you feel with this is how much it's actually showing up that day. You might be doing something from every position and say, "Okay, I don't know that one at all." Then you have to review it again before the end of the class. Or, "I know that one pretty well." So then maybe in a day or two, that's showing up again in there. It seems all over the place, but I think that would be really cool just in the fact that if you were to ever-- Maybe your armbar or whatever, and then like the second version of that, that I think would be really cool is to have either a coach or, you know, your training partners also assess that one through four scale of how well they feel like you did that technique and see if there's a big difference between that. **Sonny:** Wow, that's a really cool idea. Yes, there's a couple of things I want to talk about there. Maybe if you can explain spaced repetition of learning just for people who are unfamiliar. **Bruce:** Sure. Spaced repetition in that realm, it's like, there's a certain amount of repetitions that you have to get in till you feel like you learn that. For, say, language learning like me, you'll learn a word and then what this software does is essentially, right when you think that you're going to just about forget the word, it brings it up again and says, "Okay, remember this word." And if you have to think about it for a little bit, then boom, we're putting it on again later. Then once you really begin to remember that word, it only brings it up a couple times every month or every year or whatever, just so you can still have that in the back of your mind. **Sonny:** Yes. I think everyone could probably understand that for martial arts curriculum. I don't know if you know, some people they might do a move in a curriculum once for the grading and then it goes a bit stale, but this would actually be kind of keeping it, at least in their memory enough till it's locked in. **Bruce:** Yes. That's always kind of intrigued me on that side. I don't know anybody that's done it that way yet, but it's, and I don't want it to be just rote technique learning of like, "Okay. Yes. I know I've built up this 700-technique list that I can do." I think it's really interesting to do concepts well, but I'm sure that you training as well there's stuff I look at, and I'm like, "Man, I haven't done that technique for two years." It's really interesting to me that that happens like that where it's just, hasn't a part of your game yet so you haven't even done that technique for years. **Sonny:** Yes, no, for sure. There's ones I can think that, yeah, those moves that, "Yes. I know that. I just haven't done it in a while." Like "Yes, give me a second. It'll come back to me." **Bruce:** Then you're trying to hit it live and it just never works for some reason. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] There's fascinating ideas that, I've been speaking to a lot of other people about your teaching concepts and everything, but what is it that's actually driven you to look into these areas, because-- Have you been taking inspiration from anyone else or is this just you venturing down these paths off your own accord? **Bruce:** I definitely kind of looked around at some of the other learning styles for a while and then I hit upon that flipped classroom style and that was huge for me. There was a couple of videos, like I said, in the other athletic side that seemed a couple of wide receiver coaches that were doing it, and then a couple of PE coaches that were doing it, that was really influential. I decided to try it and I feel bad, because we did this probably three or four years ago. We started tinkering with that idea so my poor students, every time I came to class it was some new like, "Okay guys, we're going to do this. It's going to be perfect. It's going to be great." I felt bad for him during that time, but just trying to learn how best to do that when we really didn't have any other model out there to look at it with. **Sonny:** I think it takes a lot of courage to actually do that, because it's so easy to just resort back into just teaching it how you've been taught. It's no surprises for anyone. Probably people aren't going to complain that you're doing it like everyone else, so there's less risk. There's a bit of comfort and ease in that. There was that. Was it just your ideas of what it could be that made you take those chances? **Bruce:** Yes. A little bit, I think and then just the urge of like-- We're from a small area here in South Dakota, but we've luckily had some decent success. We've had 70 people go off to the UFC, Australia got Ben Nguyen. Ben used to train with us for a long time. He was with us for eight years \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Nice. Everyone knows him here. **Bruce:** Your dang Australian women stole him from us. Actually, truth be told he went to Tiger Muay Thai for a year, and then after that he moved to Australia. He started here in Sioux Falls, and so I think it's a little bit of a little man syndrome in the fact that we're a little area, that we want to have big results. I think that we needed to figure out some leg up on that group, just because we don't have the big-name coaches, like I said. Still the closest coach, black belts probably three hours away. That was probably the biggest part of just constantly ... **Sonny:** No, that makes sense. Just that need and to be able to do it has prompted you. Because it is funny when you're looking at other sports where, I don't know, I'm just guessing that they probably have a bit more room to experiment with instruction styles. Whereas Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, that you could name certain places that even attempting what you're attempting would just not be able to happen at all, right? **Bruce:** Yes. Even my coach, my coache is Rodrigo "Comprido" Medeiros he's just like, "It works for you, but it's crazy." It's something that I don't think he would probably ever do. I'm fortunate in the fact that he allows me to do that stuff, because we've had a good relationship for a long time. I think when most people see it, they probably see it as like, "This is terrible. This is going the way of Taekwondo." Where this is like, "I'm going to show a video, and then this is how you're going to do it or YouTube, Jiu-Jitsu." Which, honestly let's be honest, eight years ago, nine years ago if you were training and you watched YouTube videos there was probably some guy on the grass rolling around trying to show a really terrible Kimora. Now you've got the best instructors in the world showing really good techniques on YouTube, because that's their mainstay of income now. That's evolved completely. For me now if a student wants to watch a video from YouTube to add to that, then great. We'll watch it and we'll say, "This is something that we want to add to the curriculum because this is now becoming a big portion of the sport." I'm a little bit different than that too where I'm all for that if a student wants to do that. As long as it doesn't deviate too far from the lesson plan that we want to implement. **Sonny:** It's definitely, like YouTube has changed. Like you said, the last 8 or 10 years, it's huge. whereas all those old videos are still up there. Now if you're looking for something you might, you're just as likely to find something by Caio Terra or Danaher\] or some other world champ that's up there. Just the idea of people using YouTube as a core part of their teaching, even if it is your videos that you're putting up there. So far is not being used. I really think with the recent lockdowns, quarantines going around the world, every man and their dog's out there filming videos now. All of a sudden, it's 100% fine learning over the internet now in the last couple of months. It's completely acceptable. I do wonder when things start opening up again if that's going to open up these new opportunities. **Bruce:** For sure. I think the technology side should be huge in Jiu-Jitsu. I've told several people, I'm like, "Hey, create an app, or create a website where people can go to," because even if it's just, "I'm a guy that's interested in class and I want to watch these videos so I feel more comfortable before I come in and train." Even that, or the beginner level, boom. We have all these videos with you. Even if you're still doing the regular class the regular way, access to all these additional videos, I think that's a huge resource that students should have. **Sonny:** I think there is that special touch of it actually being a video from your coach as well, that you can still make it, personalize it and put enough value into it. It still makes it worthwhile that they go to that. How then do you actually grade your students then, is there still standard gradings or? **Bruce:** For us, it's an amount of time. Then when we roll, how they feel rolling. There's some days in the class where instead of me showing, I'll leave it up to maybe another higher belt to walk around and help with techniques. I'm taking a minute or two to roll with each student and saying, "This feels pretty good." Or fix this, or do that. That's how the grading goes through. It's definitely not a, "You've done 175 classes underneath this system. Here's your stripe." I understand that. I think that's one of the hardest things in this sport to do is grading. Especially grading that's not on a perfect scale, if you will of like, "I do 125 classes, I get this." I think we've had to do it to where, certainly, people have ideas when they're going to get their promotion based on where they're at in the curriculum. Because I've definitely heard from students that that's a complaint that they have is, "I need some sort of goal, or I need a map to be able to get to this. If I'm not competing--" For a black belt it should be-- We always just think, "It's just the journey, just keep going." I think lower belts at times definitely need that carrot in order to keep training for their goal. **Sonny:** You're right. I think a lot of people who are black belt now, probably, would have got it no matter what. Whereas, **\[unintelligible 00:37:09\]** the motivation helps, it's great. Everyone needs it, needs to have that feeling of progress. That makes sense that then you're not just relying on the technology to grade, it's still the prove yourself on the mats, not with the videos, right? **Bruce:** Yes, for sure. That's the biggest thing. I think when they hear about this they think that it's just going to be, "Yes, this, you did Kimora today. You watched the Kimora videos. So we move on" That's not the case at all, the only thing that I'm doing is trying to take that like you said, that 15 or 20 minutes out of the class. So we can get more of the drilling in, so we can have more time with that. **Sonny:** When you explain it to people like that with the, "Hey, 15, 20 minutes per class." That seems like an easy sell to me to get people on board with. What other pieces of technology then, other uses of videos. It seems you've got a good handle on at all, what other ways have you found to be able to implement them? **Bruce:** We film every practice. We have a couple of webcams and a couple of other cameras that are up. Those are available to our students as well. Say you roll in your training, and you want to watch that later and say, "Man, how did that guy get me in that sweep? Or how did that guy get me in that choke?" If you watch any of your competition footage, or any of the rolling sessions. Your roll in your mind is completely different from the roll that you have on video. It's nice to be able to go back through that. What we'll do too, is if I have some more time I'll go on. Watch those videos and then we'll do a voiceover or little annotations and things like that. I'm slowly been building those as well. We've done that for years. It's only recently that I'm like, I've explained this in a video 185 times. We're slowly building up a little database of problem areas where I can present to people and say, "See how you did this?" That we need to be doing this or that, or and so slowly adding those in as well. Which is labor-intensive. For me, I'm still rolling during the rolling time, probably 90% of the time. I don't get to watch my students as much as I would like to, I like to roll with them. This video is a good way for me to both get my own rolling in, and then watch the students later on. So I don't feel I'm short-changing them on that portion as well. That definitely goes in waves. I feel I watch a ton of that and then I'm like, "This is just too much." Then I take a month off and then I'm watching a ton of it. I think those are good, helpful things. On the other technology side, we do quite a few. It's a hard sell, but hopefully, it's not going to be after this, of the online seminars that we'll do. Maybe, you know Jeff Glover did one here like, right before everything hit I found it was at the beginning of March or end of February. Then Bill Cooper's done a bunch, we've had Bradley Oshima. We've had just a bunch of people do seminars and things like that via the web. Our gym is really set up really nice. Fuji came through and made a really nice facility. Adidas helped out with that too, to where we have camera setup and we have TV setup. If you were to do, and then nice mics and everything too. If you were to do, say a seminar and you taught, you'd be able to speak to this person just like a Zoom Meeting, essentially. They can show the technique, and then you sit there and watch everybody do it. For us, we have only two people on that section of mat that has a camera on it. That particular student, or that particular coach can then just watch those two guys. Person A do it, person B do it, switch this, do this. Great and then two more people come in. Then once everybody's done that technique in front of that guest instructor, or that seminar instructor. Then we can move on to the next technique. That for me is really cool too, which I think is a huge market for people where for Jiu-Jitsu athletes that haven't really been fully tapped yet. Because for us we're in a small area. We have about 185 students, but the airport here is tiny. Anytime you're going to come in here, you're going to pay, 6, 7, 800 bucks just for the flight. Then I've got to pay maybe a couple of 1,000 for the seminar, things like that. It gets very expensive, and then that person has to be gone from their family for two days. This way you sit down with a webcam and a laptop, which everybody's been good with now. They show the techniques for two hours, because we try to limit the online seminars for two or three hours. Do that for two or three hours, boom. They go home and they make maybe half what they would have made in the regular seminar. It's way less work and maybe if you wanted to be a glutton for punishment, you slam two or three of those together in a weekend and you've made a decent amount of money. **Sonny:** Again, after what we've gone through now-- **Bruce:** Yes. That everybody's now got the videos on point, and they've got the technology ready to go. Honestly, it's been a super hard sell, other than people that I know doing those seminars. Where they're like, "Man, I don't think this is going to work." Then every person that I've talked to, they're like, "Oh, this is actually really personal." You'll see a lot of people doing that after this as well. If I can be on the mats, and you're on the mats at the same time, rather than that person just sitting at home or whatever. I think it works very well. **Sonny:** Yes. I think so. The thing I'm wondering is if after this, gyms will start putting in projector screens and things like that. Make that a bit more standard-issue, because if every gym had a projector and then it just boom, it just opens it up, wide open. Just go back a little bit. You're actually filming all the rolling sessions each night, and then you'll take that video and upload it to YouTube or something like that? **Bruce:** Yes. Up onto YouTube as an unlisted video. Then we have a nice-- It's a basically a bot that will then go once that video uploads, then it's just basically sent. Now it goes through the app. There'll be able to watch that. As long as I take that video, upload it and then I shut the doors. 10, 15, 20 minutes later once it's uploaded it's available to the students to watch that night if they want. **Sonny:** People can go back and watch and see if that sick Kimura trap roll was actually as \[crosstalk\] **Bruce:** The nice part about that too is we've done that with a bunch of people as well. We'll take those rolling videos and say, "Okay, let's sit down for an hour at a time like this." and have another instructor will say, "Okay, brutally be honest with us here. What are we doing wrong here? What could they be doing this way?" That's been valuable too. Just like I said, we don't have access to the high-level black belts that we would like in this area. **Sonny:** That's one of the most important things is just to be able to everyone to be teaching each other and giving feedback. Such an important thing to learn, and what you're doing seems to really help and make that happen. You'd say you'd even go in and do like the individual breakdowns on those rolling sessions? That's got to be labour-intensive, is that just when you have the time or--? **Bruce:** When I have the time, the nice part about that is that nobody else needs to be on. For the longest time, and I want to get back to it we kept a database. Every time I had a comment, basically I would do the video. Just in a little database it would be, "Okay, Brian," and then the note on there. Then we he got into practice rather than doing a curriculum, the five or six things that I saw on his rolling video, he's working on those first. Saying, "Okay let's get this fixed up, let's get this better." Then move onto that. I got away from that a while, just because it's labor-intensive. If anybody knows how to make that better, that'd be great, just being able to add each one of those notes in there. I think the smaller other portion that I did was. I would watch the video, and I would talk over it and then have a transcription service. One of the cheaper ones to do that, and so that helped out a lot. Just trying to figure that out as well, when it's definitely the students continue to have a database of things that they feel they're messing upon. Then the same thing, if I see everybody's doing the Berimbolo terribly. Obviously, I want to come in and maybe teach Berimbolo a little bit differently or better somehow. **Sonny:** I really like that. It seems like you've got a lot of that feedback loop going on between you and the students in a way that seems like will actually end up with you giving them a lot more feedback. Even if it might not be while they're rolling. What do you feel is the important benefits students are getting from that feedback? **Bruce:** Definitely, I feel like almost all of the Jitsu side is, what can I make perform in live rolls and so. That's the biggest thing, is that they're getting that information under a real training situation. That's probably the most, other than competing all the time, the truest tell of if you actually had that technique correctly or not. I'm sure if you show it to me while we're just sitting there, great. Everything looks good, but can you pull it off during a roll? Or can you pull it off in competition? That's probably the biggest thing. If we can help that person see where that mistake is being made, the frustrations of Jiu-Jitsu maybe go down just minusculey, but I'll still take it. **Sonny:** Now that makes sense. Then you also mentioned earlier with the side of feedback is considering maybe getting other students to rate the perceived ability of other students in their moves. That idea itself can seem a bit of heresy in some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu circles, right? **Bruce:** Yes. For me, I feel getting that feedback is good, because maybe you feel like you really have that or the opposite. Maybe you're a person that's maybe a little bit of a Debbie Downer, and so maybe you feel like "Oh, I'm not very good at this technique," and everybody else that's gone with you rates this technique as a eight or a nine out of 10. You're constantly doing it at a two. Maybe it is better than I thought or vice versa. Maybe you feel like you're absolutely killing the technique, and everybody's like, "No, we're being kind to you." I don't know if that data would have to be-- It'd be nice if it was completely anonymous, but-- \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Opens up a whole can of worms. \[laughter\] **Bruce:** Exactly. What did you rate my Armbar at? Some just causing fights off of that. **Sonny:** Yes, but mind you something, you often see on other online forums is like, "We've got this guy in our class who stinks," or something like that. "How do we ever tell him?" You never know, maybe some way to say this guys going to rough all the time. Maybe a way to approach those social situations with some anonymous finesse might work. I don't know. **Bruce:** For sure, yes. Your Kimura is no good, and you stink. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Maybe a bit more delicate. Maybe a scale rating, one to five. It could work. Just to wrap things up. Have you ever had any problems that you've had to overcome, that you think might be good tips to give anyone else who might be listening to this and thinking about trying it? What advice would you give to someone who's like this idea and might give it a go? **Bruce:** I would definitely do it as a, two things, make sure that you have enough videos out there to support it to begin with. If you can start still doing the regular class and then start filming those for a while. Most of you guys already have, just because of the COVID thing. For a while just add the camera in there and start filming a lot of the classes, and then building up that structure. That's probably been the toughest thing for me is trying to find that perfect blend of when do I put this information in. It's great that I have that opportunity. Also, it's terrible in the fact that it's always on the back of my mind of like, "Oh, Where should this fit in the whole scheme of things as far as learning, compared to, "I'm going to show everybody this, and if that person picks up that little detail during this time, perfect." That's always a big thing, and then the second portion is I would just try it. When we first started it, one of the nicer things that was we had a little test group that we did and said, "Okay, during this class, Wednesdays at 6:30. We're going to do just this flipped classroom style and see how people slowly adapt to it." There's been portions of me that wanted to, we're going to have a regular class or regular style class on Fridays. Rather than that flipped classroom style, regular style class. Just so people kind of get both modalities, but that's been the big thing is make sure we've had enough videos. When we started we definitely didn't have enough videos. I always felt like I was chasing my tail creating content. Then the technology side, making sure that we have something up there that works really well. I think Evernote was really good, but it was labor-intensive. The website was really good, but be prepared for people to ask you all the time how this works or what to do. Then then the app has, it's took a while for me to build it. If you're going to have somebody build it, it's going to be a little expensive. That's been the best version for me so far, is just for somebody to be able to go on their phone and click. Then it just works. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. I like the idea of just trialling one class a week to see how people take it. Especially if people already have a little of their curriculum filmed after this happens. Which I know is going to be the case. Did you feel like a point that you got to, where you were comfortable with the amount of videos you had filmed? If you've to give a rough guide, where would you think that people should get to? **Bruce:** I would say, even 100 would be pretty good, of having a few series, depending on how you want to teach it. Just enough out there for them to be a little bit behind you, if you will, in the creating of that content. **Sonny:** if anyone just wanted to try half way thing. They're not certain that they could get their students fully on board yet. Is there any way you could think that not even just one class a week, just half the class or something like that to try it out. Because I still feel like there-- Sounds like a good idea, but a lot of people are going to get pushed back to try and implement it and change like that. **Bruce:** For me I think I would probably section it off into a group, and it would be the higher belt. I would say, "I'm going to put this information out there, especially the purples, browns, and guys that are already black belts." Put that information out there and say, "Guys, who wants to be a part of this little group? We're going to do this." I think when you become that purple, brown, or black you're kind of tinkering already. You know a vast majority of the techniques, you're just trying to tinker. I think that would probably be my test group to go through that. Either that, or just absolute never done it before, beginning people. Those two groups, I feel like the folks that have already started. That's probably been our biggest struggle is students that have come from another gym. Maybe they're a white or blue belt that has come from another gym. They're used to that way of teaching, and then we do this way. Now, when we've had higher belts, say purple belt moves to town, or a brown belt moves to town. They're like, "Oh man, this is amazing. I love this." Because this is already what I was formulating in my head. I'm just using it as a reference now, rather than learning from this as much. The struggle of that white belt to maybe beginner blue belt is the fact that they're like, "No. This is how things are done." **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense, because, yes. Purples, browns, generally they're already starting to do their own self directed learning. You know, going off developing their own games. That makes sense that you could probably implement it with a group like that without too much pushback, I'd imagine. **Bruce:** Honestly, for us we want them to be a part of that. You'll see videos in there from purple, brown, and we have another black belt in the gym now. You'll see other videos from them as well, and maybe they want to show something that they like or whatever. I want them to be a part of that as well as they start to learn how to teach. I think that's a huge part of it as well. Is if they maybe want to open up a gym later. They need to learn how to have some of that as well. I don't think you have to as much with this system, but I definitely think that it's still a big factor. **Sonny:** Yes, that's interesting then, bringing those belts involved. How do you think has that helped the culture of your gym? Because it sounds like everyone's in this team together. It's obviously very different from what people are used to. What cultural changes do you think it's had? **Bruce:** I think the nice thing has been that a lot of the purple, brown, and black belts have really stepped up on the coaching side. Because maybe I'm working with this group, so somebody else is helping out over there. For the longest time in our system I think the peak situation would be having groups of three. Where it's essentially an absolute beginner, maybe a blue belt, and then a higher, like a purple, brown, or black belt in each group. I still think that that's a good way. I've thought about having almost like a management system for a while, of having like, "Okay, this purple belt, they get four blue belts to work with. Those are their four blue belts that they're going to really try and improve. This blue belt gets five white belts that they're really going to try and improve." It's funny, I was on Keenan and Josh's podcast. We were talking about that for a little bit. Keenan said, "Really purple belt shouldn't be showing people." I said "I disagree. I think that if that person can get a little bit of information from that blue belt, and a little bit of information from that purple belt. Slowly work their way up the progression. I feel like that purple belt would have--" If they can say, "These five blue belts are my-- I'm really trying to make those guys better." I think that's the mindset that I would like everybody to have. Is making everybody better through the team kind of deal. Just so it doesn't sound weird. Keenan agreed based on the format that we have for class, i think this is the set up that we have that works really well for that. **Sonny:** I think it is an ideal situation if everyone in the class is able to help out. At least someone in the class in some way on their progression. Everyone becomes their own teacher to a certain amount of people. That's just going to help everyone grow quicker, because if there's only the one headteacher in the class their time can only be spread amongst how many students. **Bruce:** Right, then on the other hand, I really want to press that button of the blue belt, purple belt trying to teach this white belt. My hope is that they say, "Crap, I don't want to seem wrong." Then maybe before they speak, maybe they look at that information again, and what I've presented. They look at it somewhere else and then they present it. I really want to trigger that anxiety honestly of them being afraid of teaching anything until they feel like they know it. That in turn makes them learn it better. **Sonny:** That's good. I mean if they're teaching people the information that you've given them to teach, or the feedback points that you've told them to give feedback on. Then that makes sense, rather than just I think everyone's in agreement that they shouldn't just teach some random move that who knows that they're just some \[crosstalk\] **Bruce:** \[chuckles\] They're just some guy in the backyard from 2009. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** That's it. A Youtube video that was uploaded 2009, exactly. Those are the ones that I don't, but if it's like "You can teach this move. Give them the feedback on these certain points. Monitor someone else on these points," then I think that that's a way that it could possibly be very feasible to work. Awesome, Bruce. Thank you so much for your time, today mate. It's been a great chat. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to fire away any questions to you. How should they go about to doing that? **Bruce:** Probably Facebook would be the biggest one that we're on or Instagram. The Facebook is just, Next Edge Academy. N-E-X-T-E-D-G-E-A-C-A-D-E-M-Y. The same thing with Instagram. They go on there. Either one of those two, I'll try to get back to you fairly quickly. Otherwise, just go to our website, but our website if you have a login then there's a tone of information in there. Otherwise, it's just pretty basic. It's definitely not something that I'm like, "I want this to flourish," because I think it'll be really interesting in the next few years to see if some of these does take off. What changes that I'm not seeing, that other instructors are going to make to make it even better. I don't think that this is probably the best way of doing it. I'm sure that's going to come years and years from now, but it'll be interesting to see. Like you, said after this time, I think Jiu-Jitsu folks would become way more accustomed to technology now. I think you'll start to see things like these. Maybe not the same thing, but these same idea a lot more. **Sonny:** Yes, there's going to be some changes no matter what. I think it could be very well the cutting edge of it. I'd love to maybe catch up again in a couple of months or something like that and just see where everything's got to. **Bruce:** See what's happened. **Sonny:** See if we're allowed out by then. \[laughs\] Thanks, I really appreciate your time, mate. I know you're busy there, so thank you very much. I've really enjoyed the chat. I think it's great, and hopefully we can have some more in the future. **Bruce:** Awesome. Hey, thank you very much for the interview and talk to you in a couple of months. **Sonny:** Thank you. Cheers, Bruce. ![Bruce Hoyer - Flipped Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bruce_tsbb_thumbnail.jpg "bruce_tsbb_thumbnail › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Dr Reid Reale On Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/) **Published:** December 3, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Reid Reale - Weight Loss & Weight Cutting](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reid_reale_weight_cut-1024x576.jpg "Reid Reale › Sonny Brown")Reid Reale is a BJJ Black Belt who also holds a master’s degree in dietetics and a PhD in sports nutrition. His PhD thesis was entitled “Optimising Acute Body Mass Management in Australian Olympic Combat Sports”, which he completed while working as a dietitian at the [A.I.S](https://www.ais.gov.au/ "https://www.ais.gov.au/"). and for the Australian Olympic Combat Sports athletes before and after the 2016 Rio Olympics. Additionally, he published other research papers in the field titled "Acute weight management in combat sports: pre-weight-in weight loss, post-weight-in recovery and competition nutrition strategies" & The effect of water loading on acute weight loss following fluid restriction in combat sports athletes". Since then, he has worked as a sports scientist at the Gatorade sports institute before starting as a performance nutrition manager at the U.F.C. Pi in Shanghai, China. There he has worked with the local Chinese team managing nutrition, weight loss & [weight cuts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/weighty-issues-of-weight-loss-and-weight-cutting-for-combat-sports-with-dr-reid-reale/ "Weighty Issues of Weight Loss and Weight Cutting for Combat Sports with Dr Reid Reale") and after the recording of the interview, he has been over at fight island helping competitors with their weight cuts there. We discuss these issues and the practicalities around dealing with the fighters in his programs and more. If you are interested in learning more about the subject, you can purchase his book called "Combat Sports Nutrition" at https://combatsportsnutritionebook.com/ which has been recently updated, and use the discount code "***sonnybrown***" for a 40% discount! ### **LISTEN TO REID REALE** #### Apple #### Google #### Spotify ## Key Topics ### Making weight versus losing weight Reid separates long-term body-mass management from the short-term process of making weight for competition. He explains why combat-sport athletes need to manage both phases rather than relying on a last-minute cut. ### Individualising the weight cut The conversation covers how nutrition plans are adjusted to the athlete, the weight division and how far the fighter is from the limit. Reid describes using structured plans as a starting point, then modifying food and fluid strategies around the individual situation. ### Fight-week nutrition and performance Reid discusses the practical challenge of helping fighters make weight without unnecessarily sacrificing how they feel and perform. That includes working with chefs and support staff to provide appropriate food while monitoring the athlete throughout fight week. ### Post-weigh-in recovery The episode also examines the importance of what happens after the scale, including rehydration, refuelling and preparing the athlete to compete rather than treating the weigh-in itself as the finish line. ## Key Takeaways - Good weight management starts well before fight week. - Weight cuts should be individualised rather than copied from another athlete. - The goal is not merely to make the number on the scale, but to preserve competition performance. - Post-weigh-in recovery is a central part of the weight-cutting process. ## Resources - [Reid Reale on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/reidreale/) - [Reid Reale on Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=mXaxPcgAAAAJ&hl=en) - [*Combat Sports Nutrition*](https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/instructional-videos/products/combat-sports-nutrition-e-book-by-reid-reale) - [Individualised dietary strategies for Olympic combat sports](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28316263/) — research discussed in the episode - [Australian Institute of Sport](https://www.ais.gov.au/) ## Reid Reale Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Beautiful. Dr. Reale, how are you today? **Dr. Reid Reale:** I'm good, mate. How are you? Thanks for having me on. **Sonny:** My pleasure, sir. My pleasure. Now, I've known you for, I guess-- When did we first meet? Was it 2016, 2017? A few years at least. **Dr. Reale:** I think we actually first met at a Jiu-Jitsu Comp, and then maybe a year later, at the Institute of Sport in Australia. **Sonny:** I blocked that Jiu-Jitsu Con out when you strangled me, mate. \[laughter\] That was that CTE dark memory going-- **Dr. Reale:** I think that was your return after a big layoff or something there, wasn't isn't it? Don't be too hard on yourself. **Sonny:** I had a broken finger, but excuses please only those who give them. \[laughter\] Since, then mate, you have been living the life, haven't you? Tell us about your current role at the UFC Performance Institute. You have really been, as far as a person into a weight-cutting nutrition, you've found yourself in a pretty plum gig, haven't you? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, it's worked out quite well for me. When you and I met under less strangling each other circumstances at the Institute of Sport in Australia, I was doing my PhD, looking at weight-cutting in Olympic combat sports, and I finished that in 2017. After that, I moved to the US for two years where I worked for Gatorade Sports Science Institute, which obviously Gatorade have no interest in fighting. Fast forward two years, working with Gatorade actually landed a job with the UFC at the Performance Institute in Shanghai. Basically in Shanghai, I run the nutrition department there. The title is performance nutrition manager. Everything to do with the fighters making weight, but also their day-to-day nutrition, also coordinating with the kitchen, also external parties to do with supplements. Pretty much anything to do with supplements, or food, making weight, or nutrition in general, with the fighters at the Performance Institute in Shanghai, I oversee that. It's literally exactly, if you had to create a perfect job for me, based on my personal interest, and then also what my PhD was looking at, this job is it. I'm really fortunate. **Sonny:** That role with UFC, you've recently been at the fight shows, managing fighters and taking care of the day-to-day, like around the world with different fight shows, yes? **Dr. Reale:** Yes. Most people listening to this probably are aware of the Performance Institute in Vegas. It's a little bit different to what we do in Shanghai. In Vegas, they serve us any rostered UFC fighter, and we do that as well. The fact that we're located in Shanghai means that most of the fighters are in the US, or Brazil, or whatnot. Most of the roster fighters are making use of the Vegas PI, whereas in Shanghai, we had the full-time academy of Chinese athletes who aren't yet in the UFC, and so my day-to-day is managing those guys. The reason why I'm explaining this, is a big part of what they do in Vegas is they actually go to fight shows, and they team up with Trifecta Nutrition. Some people might have heard that name or seen the logo is getting around. Trifecta is like a meal prep service, but they offer really good service at UFC events. Not every event, but every pay-per-view of many of the fight nights, they offer a service which is free to fighters, where they will cook all of your meals for fight week, as well as provide you post weigh-in recovery nutrition, drinks and supplements and whatnot. A big part of what I do at Vegas is fly around the US and the world and do that, but because of this coronavirus shit that's been going on, I've been out of China since January 22nd, and so I've had the opportunity to do more of what they do in Vegas. I went to Auckland to do the Felder card. I was there for a week. Then I was also in Vegas for the Zhang Weili, Joanna Jędrzejczyk, and the Romero and Adesanya card. Prior to that, the only other UFC event that I had done on the ground doing the Trifecta meal prep service, was the card in Shenzhen. When was that? Was that last year? Yes, that would have been last year when Zhang Weili won the belt. What we do with our Trifecta is Trifecta have a chef, and the chef does all the cooking of course, but they have a UFC dietician on the ground at the fighters hotel, to manage the fighters and be the middleman between the fighters and the chef, and to get ideas of where the fighters are at, and where their weight is at, what kind modifications you would need to make to their diet to ensure they make weight, and then communicate that to the chef. Obviously, the chef isn't an expert in nutrition, but the chef is the expert when it comes to cooking delicious food, and so we work on side by side with the chef, and then also the fighters during fight week to, as best we can, make sure they make weight. Of course, \[chuckles\] you can't make sure everybody makes weight, but we provide the best service as possible to the fighters. **Sonny:** When you're working with the chefs going around to the different fighters, how are you getting those fighters to be accustomed to the different tastes of all the different foods? Are you just telling them what to eat or are you dealing with the tempers and, "I don't want to eat this, Reid. Take it back, mate. Get me a steak." What kind of things are going on there? **Dr. Reale:** They actually provide a really good service. I didn't come up with this service, the UFC were doing this before I was on board, but something that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. The service that they provide was actually based on a lot of the research that I published during my PhD. That's good and makes me feel like I actually did something in my PhD. Basically, you're a fighter, your listeners are fighters, we know how much shit fighters put themselves through in that fight week. A lot of them barely eating anything, eating really bland tasteless foods, and all this sort of stuff. If anything, the fighters are actually quite surprised with, number one, how much food they get eat, number two, how good they feel during fight week, and number three, just the taste of the food. That's the whole idea of having a chef on board. We've got cookie-cutter approaches based on the different weight divisions, because obviously, it's like all these calories, and proteins, and macros, and whatnot, are based on the size of the athlete. We've got basic plug and play recipes for fighters of different weights, but then we adjust that based on how far they are off weight. Because obviously, if you've got two lightweights and one has only got five pounds to do in the last week, it's a walk in the park, or as the guy walks in, he's still 20 pounds overweight, you wouldn't be giving them both the same meal plan for fight week. We have these stock standard approaches that we implement, and then adjust based on the fighters specific situation. Within that, because in nutrition, what we're doing is just providing energy and macronutrients, there's a lot of wiggle room. We ask them, "Protein preference, do you prefer steak, fish, chicken?" Things like this. Then, during fight week, there's not much carbs for most people, but it's quite a high fat diet. The fat sources that we have is like nut butters, peanut butter, almond butter, avocados, sometimes cream-based sources, things like this. Then we'll ask them what their fat preferences are. Then, what else? Then, post weigh-in is when they get their carb back up, so then we also ask them, "Carbohydrate sources, are your rice guy, a potato guy, a pasta guy?" We do the best that we can to deliver them the nutrition they need in a way that suits their palate, but also doesn't make it too hard on us. Because if you just completely had everything open for discussion, you can imagine logistically, it's quite difficult when you serve some 25 fighters and you've only just met them a day ago. It's a lot of work for the chef. The chef, man, this guy, Mario. I can't pronounce his last name. I can pull up the Facebook and find out. Chef Mario does such a good job, man. He's really passionate about it. He's always tweaking these recipes and the sauces and to make them taste better and everything, and so he does a really good job. He gets feedback from the fighters because he travels around. They had just put a new chef on Trifecta, but prior to this, there was only the one chef, Mario and he would do every single event, this poor guy. He would be in London one week, then he's in Perth the next week, then he's flying all around the US. He just loves it, this guy. Actually, he's an absolute workhorse. He'll see the same fighters every couple of months and get feedback from them, and adjust the recipes and things. He does a really good job. Here he is, Mario LimaDuran. I don't know if we can see this. There we are. **Sonny:** Mario LimaDuran. What a legend. **Dr. Reale:** Yes. Man, he's such a good chef and such a good guy. Yes, he works his ass off during those fight weeks. **Sonny:** I remember when you worked out a meal plan for me, the first thing that you did was put us through a DEXA scan to figure out body weight, fat, muscle, bones. Is that how you're--? Are you putting all the fighters when they come in through that same process, or how do you figure that out? **Dr. Reale:** During fight week, obviously not, because fight week, the fighters just rock up on a Tuesday for a Saturday fight to a hotel. We don't have a DEXA scanner or anything there, but we've got a bit of an idea about just what weights they're at. In terms of in Shanghai, for sure, man, we're doing DEXAs on these guys. During fight camp, every three weeks outside of fight camp, every five or six weeks I would do RMRs, resting metabolic rate assessments on these guys, and trying to make it as scientific and keyed-in as possible. Having said that, everybody's different. You can get two fighters, both 70 kilos, both 10% body fat, you do all the calculations, you figure out what diet they should be on, you give them both the same diet, one guy loses weight, one guy puts on weight. There's a lot of genetic variation within people. The way it is, with all sports sciences, you use the science to guide you in your decision-making, but then you assess the progress as you go and adjust accordingly. **Sonny:** That's interesting of the genetic variation with the food. Is that something that people had a handle on yet, or you can make adjustments for that with some kind of testing or anything like that, or is it still early days? **Dr. Reale:** Yes. Certainly, very early days. In the long term, this is where this stuff is all heading, but I think we're decades off, getting this stuff nailed down. Genes are so complex, even with disease and with everything. We get sniffs of what might be going on when a new study comes out about nutrient gene interactions and things like this. The way dieticians and sports dieticians that are worth their salt around the world do it, is just to make-- I don't want to use the word rough, but it pretty much is rough calculations, based on what the scientific literature says. Then you're just getting the people to report back to you, how's your weight changing? How much training you're doing? How are you feeling? Then you're making, I will say, informed subjective guesses as to what's actually happening within the body and then adjusting accordingly. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. That makes sense. I think I may have already seen some ads starting to pop up here and there for genetic testing for a nutritional profile. That's probably they're jumping the gun just just going for the money, is that--? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, 100%, man. As is the case with everything, right? Soon as something promising comes out, these people are going jump on board and tell you that, "Come and spit in this tube and we can tell you how much carbs you need, and how much fat you need, and your blah-blah-blah," all this stuff, but, I wouldn't be investing in this. Well, investing is one thing, I wouldn't be basing my diet based off these nutrigenomics tests just yet, when we've got perfectly effective means of doing it outside of that. I think some nutrients, they're certainly further along than others. I'll give you an example, like with iron. Iron is a very important nutrient. It's using red blood cell production and blah-blah-blah. Very important for athletes. There's certain genetic anomalies or conditions, or genetic-- I'm trying to think of the word. I don't want to swear in your podcast, but anyway, there are certain genetic conditions which mess with your iron absorption or your iron regulation. There's certain people-- One's called hemochromatosis, where your body doesn't regulate iron absorption and excretion the way that it should. These people, what normally happens, when your iron stores are quite full in your body, your body will stop absorbing so much iron from your diet. Vice versa, if your iron stores are very low, your body will absorb more iron from your diet. This is because iron in excessive amounts in the body can be toxic. Our bodies evolved over millions and billions of years to get by in this world that we find ourselves. People with this genetic anomaly, hemochromatosis, their body doesn't regulate this iron absorption and excretion. They just keep eating iron, and they end up poisoning themselves and dying. Something like this, I believe they can test for, but in terms of figuring out exactly how much magnesium you need based off your genes, I don't think that's there. Certainly, there are certain things that they probably can test for and do a decent job of, but long term, maybe this is where this stuff is all heading. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. then to make those informed decisions with the different variations on athletes, I guess then you need that constant data. You can't just see them once and you can make your decision from there. You need to be getting that constant feedback and constant data. I guess that's what having a full-time fight team living in camp in China has allowed you to be able to do around the clock, right? **Dr. Reale:** Yes. It's really awesome. Like I said, we do the DEXA scan, which for people who don't know is just a body composition scan. It's originally designed to assess bone mineral density, but you can also get indications of muscle mass and body fat from it. We'll do a DEXA scan-- I forget, we've got it in the schedule. Maybe it's every three weeks, maybe it's every two weeks in fight camp we do it. Then outside of fight camp is every four or five weeks where we do that. Then, of course, for fighters, the big thing that you're concerned about is body weight. We just track their body weight every week. We have them weigh in Monday, Tuesday, and then Thursday every week. The reason why we pick Monday, Tuesday is because most people don't train as much on the weekend, they pig out over the weekend, and so Monday morning, you're typically at your heaviest, but then for whatever reason, sometimes you're not. Sometimes for whatever reason, you're like, maybe you just fell asleep early on Sunday and you didn't eat as much, you didn't drink as much fluid and you're a little bit lighter than your, "true body weight" on a Monday morning, so that's why we do Tuesday as well. Then we just take the average of Monday, Tuesday, and use that as an indication of their heaviest weight for that week. That's that weekly feedback that we're getting to see how their weight's tracking. Then we also do Thursday, just because we want to see them later in the week after a few days training, how it looks like. We had discussions about the best day to do it. I think when we go back to China, we'll move that one to a Saturday morning. It's more towards the end of the week when a fighter's depleted, so you can get an idea of them at their heaviest and lightest for the week. We do that. The body composition measurements, the DEXA scan is more assessing, number one, their white division fit. Are they in the correct weight division? As we all know, you get guys that are fighting at lightweight that have absolutely no abs at all and maybe they're only at 10 pounds above lightweight, and they've got so much body fat on them that if we could just get the fat down, the amount of muscle mass they actually have under that fat is more in line with the guy at featherweight or sometimes even bantamweight. The DEXA scan gives us a good idea about weight division fit. Then also whether we're dieting them too fast, or that they're losing weight so fast that then you can see the muscle mass start to change as well, but generally, body weight is a pretty good indicator for most people as to what's going on. If you're losing weight really slowly, chances are, you're probably not losing a whole lot of muscle. For the people listening at home or fighters who don't have routine access to a DEXA scan, getting a DEXA scan a couple of times a year is probably sufficient, and then you're just tracking your body weight in between that. For our fighters, we've got the luxury of throwing them in a DEXA scan whenever we want, so we make use of it. **Sonny:** Of course, if you've got the equipment there, why not use it? Those days of weighing yourself, is that something that just the the regular fighter, or jiu-jitsu, or regular athlete, that three days a week, is that good enough or should they be getting on it more since they don't have the DEXA? **Dr. Reale:** It depends what kind of person you are. The issue with weighing not frequent enough, is that you don't actually have an idea of the way your weight's tracking, because if you just jump on the scales on a Wednesday one week, then you don't weigh for two weeks, and you get on it on a Monday, then a week later, you do a Thursday, then two weeks later, you do-- It's just you're not getting a good indication of the way your weight is tracking. Also, something else that I should say is that like the time of day when you weigh. Really, the only thing that we care about is that fasted waking weights. We want them to get up in the morning, don't eat or drink anything, go to the bathroom, and then get on the scale so that we can get an indication of the empty, rested fasted weight. If you weigh yourself after training when you have sweat, you don't know how much exactly you've sweat, you don't know how much you've drank, if you've eaten meals throughout the day, it confounds the numbers that you're getting. That's one thing. If you don't standardize the way you weigh yourself, the information is somewhat useless. Then, we're also going with that. Then, the danger of weighing yourself too often is that sometimes people will develop complexes with this, like body image issues, eating disorders, and things like this. That's not good either. If you're the kind of person that can be really objective with this, and I've worked with fighters in the past that are, that they really don't care. They understand the body is the vehicle that they drive for their sport. The number on the scales doesn't seem to put them into spirals of depression or anything like this, so for these people-- Some people just want to weigh themselves every day, and that's completely fine, providing it's not causing you any psychological ill harm. Like myself, jiu-jitsu competitor for 15 years, dietician, PhD in weight cutting, and blah-blah-blah, all this. When I got jiu-jitsu comps coming up, I'm the kind of guy that's going to be weighing myself every day, just because I'm interested. I want to see what my weight is at the start of the week compared to the end of the week, and things like this, but people who-- Look, some athletes don't really want to think about all this stuff. They just want to do the bare minimum, do what they're told, not have to think about it. If you're this kind of athlete, I would still say you want to get at least weekly weigh-ins, so you have an idea of whether you're actually putting on weight or losing weight, and the same way we do at the academy. I think doing two days back to back is a good idea just because weight does tend to fluctuate day-to-day, and so we have heavy days and light days based on a variety of factors. If you just do like a Monday, Tuesday, every week, I think, they're good days to do it because that's probably when you're going to be at your heaviest. As a fighter, you probably want to know how far off are you from your weight division. If you don't want to think about it, just Monday, Tuesday, every week, log that weight. If you don't have fights coming up and you really don't want to do it, don't do it. I would argue that's slightly irresponsible if you're the kind of person that balloons out. We know from research in general population but as well as athletes, people who weigh themselves compared to people who don't weigh themselves maintain their body weight better. That's probably no surprise, right? Because if you're head in the sand, hands over your eyes and ears, and you are not paying attention to something, that's when things can get out control without you realizing it. **Sonny:** Yes, for sure. I've had situations where I'll ask a fighter with a fight coming up, "What's your weight?" You can tell they're a bit, "I'm not going to do it until I'm ready mentally and then I'm confident enough that what's going to be on the scale is what I want to see." It makes me think then, when you're dealing with those athletes and you're tailoring it to their different personalities even, is there any way that you're figuring out what their personalities are, questionnaires or anything like that, or are you just gauging it and using your intuition? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, the second one. We don't do any questionnaires in terms of getting an idea of their personality types. I'm not sure whether there's any out there that would help, but certainly, it's about getting to know them. It's quite interesting, working in China actually. There's a lot of downsides to the- I'll just come out with it and say, lack on interest in sports nutrition and performance nutrition amongst Chinese athletes, but there's some upsides where they don't tend to have these body image issues around weight and things like this. You know what I mean? It's a lot more just part of the sport and do what you're told. They don't tend to do their heads in over it as much. There doesn't seem to be these issues around, like you just alluded to, like fighters dreading stepping on the scales and things like this. There's that. There's this certainly cultural differences, but then there's individual athlete differences as well. Yes, you just got to get know your athletes as a coach. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense that you're just going to have to have those people skills as a coach to be able to know what that particular person is going to require. **Dr. Reale:** There's two kinds of athletes. There's athletes that turn into-- I'm trying to think of a diplomatic way to say this. There's athletes whose weight increases dramatically in between fights, and there's athletes who don't. If you are working with athletes whose weights don't increase dramatically in between fights, then maybe there's nothing to worry about. You know what I mean? We've got several athletes in our academy who without really thinking about it or making concerted efforts to get it right, their body-weight management is essentially perfect. They just sit around 10% to 12% above their weight division, in camp, off camp, whatever. They don't even have to diet during fight camp. Their weight will slowly come down but they don't even have that much to lose. Then they do a weight cut of like 10% in the last week. Then, two weeks after the fight, they're not any heavier and maybe at their biggest, they're like 13% or 14% above their weight division. Again, that comes down during fight camp anyway without them really trying to do so. Certainly, it's not the majority of them. Most fighters balloon out in between fights, that's probably the reality. right? **Sonny:** I hear that. **Dr. Reale:** \[laughs\] Yes. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] I know that all too well. Obviously, if you're getting fighters, one of the best things they can do is just keep their fight weight low between each fight or in that range, so that they don't have these massive weight cuts six weeks out, that they've got to start freaking out about it. It that--? **Dr. Reale:** Yes. We work with some numbers, some guidelines that we like to use with our guys. I don't think it's a case of you should always be ready. Some of the review papers that we published as a part of my PhD, we recommend fighters should not try and cut, I'm not talking fat loss here, I'm talking like acute weight loss or weight-cutting, in that last 7 to 10 days, that fighters should not try and cut more than 10% of their body weight. For a lightweight who's going to fight at 70 kilos or 70.5 kilos or whatever it is, we don't want them to be any heavier than 77.5 kilos, 7 to 10 days out because we know that fighter's can-- It's not a walk in the park but fighters can, without hurting themself, cut 10% of their body weight, and then recover really well. It's always a balance because people who don't understand the sport say, "Why don't you just get down to 71 kilos or 72 kilos so the weight cuts easy?" It's like, "Well, then you're going to be too small when it comes time to fight, right?" That 10%, that' s a good, pragmatic balance between not cutting so much weight that you're going to hurt yourself and ruin your performance, but also not giving your opponent a significant size advantage. Now, obviously, some people do a lot more than 10%. I won't say names but there's been some UFC fighters that have gained 25% of their body weight, after weigh-in. That's crazy. In order to gain that 25%, you've probably have to lose 25% in that last 7 to 10 days. Losing 25% of your body weight is ridiculous, that's how people end up dying in the sauna. It's certainly not a case that the heavier fighter always wins, but we would be foolish to think that size does not play a part in competitive success. Each fighter has got to figure out what works for them. The numbers that we use is about 10%, we want them to cut. If it's a little bit less, no problem. If they're 8%, I still don't think they're too small. 11% or 12% that can probably do but it's going to suck a lot more. Once you cut more than that in that last 7 to 10 days, is when you start to- all the support staff around the fighter are getting a bit worried. Having said that-- This brings me back to my actual point. Having said that, you could then be led to think that a fighter should just constantly remain at 10% above their weight division and that way, they never have to lose body fat. They can just do weight cuts after weight cuts and never have to actually do a fat loss phase. That's fine for some fighters. If that's where they sit, that's fine, but in my experience and what we've worked with with our guys, we allow them to put on some fat and indeed some muscle in between fights, but we don't want it to be too excessive. We tell them at the start of fight camp, "We don't want you to be bigger than," I think we say "about 13%-14% above your weight division." That means in that last-- We have shorter fight camps for our guys. We want them to be able to take a fight on six weeks' notice, and so that means that we're going to drop 1% of their body weight per week. If they're up around that 15% above their weight division, in order to get them down to 10% above their weight division a week. There's a lot of research to support the claim that once you're losing more than 1% of your body weight per week, the calorie deficits that are required to achieve that, increase your risk of injury and illness, lead to greater loss of lean mass and muscle mass, and things like this. As best you can, you want to prevent yourself having to lose more than 1% of your body weight per week in fat loss. Then, try to aim for around that 10% in the last 7 to 10 days. That's the way we come up with these numbers. Of course, it doesn't always work. Some fighters just go home and pig out and come back 20% above their weight division. Then we say, "You're 20% above your weight division, there's no short-notice fights." Then they get a short notice fight on four weeks notice and then you're pulling your hair out, trying to figure out what you're going to do. That's when it's like, "What are we going to do?" The fighter has to make weight or at least come very close to making weight, otherwise, you're not going to able to fight. The unfortunate reality of these sports are then, you're starving people in order to get their weight down. You're putting them on severe calorie deficits. Their training's affected, increased risk of injury, they're going to lose muscle mass, they're going to feel like crap the whole time, but you got to do what you got to do to get that weight down. Then it sets up the rebound again afterwards, so some people get trapped in that cycle and they never escape it. Again, we've got a few good examples of athletes in our academy that do it quite well. Generally, not through any concerted effort of their own. That's just kind of the way their genetics are set up. They pretty much just pig out the whole time. They eat as much food as they can and they're just that kind of body type where they stay jacked and lean. They don't ever get greater than 12% to 13% above their [weight division, then we just do a weight cut](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sleeping-while-cutting-weight-for-a-fight/) at the end of it, and they're good. **Sonny:** I like that, that you do give a people a bit of allowance and keeping it **\[unintelligible 00:32:36\]** in the ballpark, shall we say. I'm interested, you mentioned then that some people, given those circumstances, are going to have to lose a lot of weight, and they are going to have that rebound effect. One phrase I had heard thrown around is metabolic damage, that people can permanently damaged themselves. Then, that throws everything off, they hold more fat into the future, something like that. Is that a thing, or what can happen there? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, I don't know about permanent. Obviously, that side depends on your definition of permanent, but permanent is actually pretty clear. Permanent means forever, right? I don't know-- \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Pretty much. **Dr. Reale:** Yes. \[chuckles\] I don't know if it is forever, but certainly you can-- What happens is, we have a resting metabolic rate, which is how much energy our body burns at rest. If you use the analogy of like a car, when you do exercise, you're putting your foot on the accelerator, you're burning gas, but even when you're laying down in bed or sitting down, the engines idling, so it's heating over, and this is that resting metabolic rate. What happens is when you start dieting, or when you're overtraining or under fueling yourself, that resting metabolic rate starts to decrease, and they're starting in recent years, last 5 to 10 years, it's become really fashionable in the research community to use resting metabolic rate as an indication of overtraining and under-fueling. We do this at the PI in Shanghai where we test at resting metabolic rate every couple of weeks. When you start to see their resting metabolic rate drop, again, that's an indication that maybe they're not fueling well or they're overtraining. What you find is that, yes, when people diet, their resting metabolic rate decreases. There's several reasons for this, one, is you're feeding them less calories. Two, if you lose muscle mass. Muscle mass is metabolically active so the less muscle you have, the less fuel your body requires just to maintain that muscle mass. Then there is some research to suggest that this suppression lasts longer than the period of the calorie deficit does. What that means basically, you diet for 10 weeks and then you stop dieting. Your metabolism resting metabolic rate decreases throughout that 10 weeks, your calories come back up, but your RMR stays low. That would be an indication of metabolic damage, so to speak. There was actually some interesting studies looking at ex *Biggest Loser* contestants. *Biggest Loser* that television show where they had the morbidly obese people that lose all the weight. That was showing that in these people, even two years after the show, their metabolic rates were all screwed up. It's certainly possible. The caveat around this is that everybody's different. You wouldn't believe the genetic variation in humans. I've seen athletes that you feed them ridiculously low-calorie diets in order to get them to make weight and their RMR stays very high, and they don't lose any muscle mass. These people are just genetic specimens. That's just the way the human race is set up. Pretty much everything exists on a bell curve, and most people, some are in the middle and you've always got people at the tips of the bell curve. Generally, the people at the tips of the bell curve are the people winning Olympic gold medals, and Tour de France, and UFC world champions, and things like this. **Sonny:** Yes, that's fair enough. It's probably then a bit unreasonable for me to blame my difficulties losing the Christmas kilos on a weight cut I did five years ago. \[laughter\] **Dr. Reale:** What was your quote at the start, about the excuses are only--? **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] Excuses please only those who gives them. \[laughs\] I hear you. How are you guys then testing getting that metabolic rate for the guys in China? Is that something that the regular athlete can do? **Dr. Reale:** How do we do it, and how is it done in the research setting? Basically, not a lot of people might be familiar with how it looks like, but people may be familiar with Vo2 max test. Maybe you've seen somebody on the treadmill with the mask on jogging on the treadmill. A lot of people have seen this, whether it's on the TV or at a university or something like this. What that's doing is that that mask is attached to a gas analyzer, which is measuring the amount of oxygen that you're sucking in and the amount of carbon dioxide that you're producing. Then we do a bunch of equations on these numbers to figure out how much energy you're burning, and also how much fat and carbohydrates you're burning and things like this. Basically, it's the same thing, but resting metabolic rate, as the name would suggest, you do it at rest. We just get people to come in and lay down, they lay down for 30 minutes with the mask on, and we just measure how much energy they're burning at rest. It's really important the standardization of that, so similar to the way you do your weight. When we do this, it's early. It's like 7:00 AM. I think the last one we do is like 7:45 something like this, but the athletes don't really like it because it's 30 minutes lying on your back, and it's at an ungodly time for these Chinese athletes to get up at 6:30 and come in and do a resting metabolic rate test. That's how it's done. How is it--? You have to be fast. You can't eat or drink anything. You can drink water, but you can't eat or drink anything with energy. You shouldn't have tobacco, or alcohol, or caffeine for the 12 hours beforehand, things like this. No marijuana either for all the fighters out there. Then can-- **Sonny:** You're breaking dreams. **Dr. Reale:** \[laughs\] The argument could be made that if you're always smoking marijuana, maybe you should do it on marijuana, because then it's a better indication of your typical resting metabolic rate. **Sonny:** I'd give them the chance. That's all a fighter would need to hear, and then they'll take that around with it, mate, so don't give me the opportunity. **Dr. Reale:** Then can fighters do it themselves? To be honest, I haven't heard of commercial places that do it. DEXA scanning is very popular now. There's a lot of, I know certainly in Australia, in the US, I guarantee, and other places I know, in the UK as well, you can go and get your body composition tested via DEXA scan. I haven't heard of places doing RMRs. Your best bet might be to contact a university. If you have any friends that study sports science or nutrition, tap them on the shoulder, but it wouldn't surprise me if places do start to provide this service because it's kind of becoming a standard nutrition diagnostic test in many sports institutes around the world. **Sonny:** Okay, so the best then that the regular athlete without that access might be able to do is you get a DEXA scan, and then there's some calculations you can make off that, and then get the feedback and see how that's going. Is that--? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, exactly. Right, but to be honest, you don't even really need a DEXA. Two ways to do it. One, is just Google metabolic rate equation, and there's a bunch of different equations out there. Common ones are the Schofield equations, Harris-Benedict equations, Cunningham equations. Cunningham requires you to know your muscle mass. If you want to use a Cunningham equation, then you would need to get a DEXA, but these equations are just based off your body weight, maybe your height, maybe your age, and definitely your sex, male versus female. These equations, they're pretty accurate. They're accurate for most people plus or minus 10%. If you wanted to design your diet this way, you could just get one of these equations, feed your info into it, and then that's going to tell you how much you burn hypothetically at rest. The issue then anyway is this, even if you do-- There's two different ways to get the RMR, right? One is to measure it directly or indirectly, via a test that I just described, or two, use one of these equations, but that's only one component of your energy expenditure. Then, there's the actual energy that you expend through training and even like incidental exercise. Even if you don't go to training, you're moving around, you're doing housework, things like this. Then, you're burning energy that way. That way, you can't really measure anyway. There's no good way to do it. Even if you have the actual perfect gold standard RMR measurement, you're then getting the energy expenditure through exercise anyway. Really, what it comes down to is, like you said, it's like you're just looking for feedback. This is how we work with athletes, right? Like I said, right in the beginning, you come up with an intervention or a diet or some sort of plan based off the scientific literature, and then you adjust based on the reality and the feedback that you're getting from the athlete's weight, or their training quality, or whatever. For you, Sonny Brown, what's your weight right now? **Sonny:** Oh, I'm ready to go, coach. Throw me in, I'm the fight weight, I'm in striking distance, don't worry about that. \[laughs\] **Dr. Reale:** Let's say you're 75 kilos, 80 kilos. **Sonny:** Yes, 80. **Dr. Reale:** All right. Let's say you're 80 kilos, and you're going to try once per day, right? I'm going to ballpark it here. Say you burn 3,000 calories in a day, it may not be exactly 3,000, it may be more or less, but it's probably not too far off. What we do is we feed you 3,000 calories, and then we weigh you according to a standardized procedure we've described earlier, and then we just see what happens. If we feed 3,000 calories a day, every day, for three weeks, and your weight stays the same, then we nailed it. If your weight increases, then we're obviously feeding you too much, which means that the combination of your resting metabolic rate and your exercise energy expenditure is actually less than 3,000. Or, if you're losing weight, then we're not feeding you enough. Really, this is the way that we do it anyway. Even at the academy, we have all these plug and play diets for the different weight divisions that we use. We have these menus set up, where we say, "All right, a lightweight wants to lose body fat." We estimate that for this lightweight to lose body fat, they'll need to eat two 2,500 calories a day. I'm just pulling out numbers here, maybe it's a little bit more. Then we give them this menu, and the menu says like, "Pick a protein, pick a vegetable, pick rice, or noodles, dumplings whatever," and they tick what they want, and then they follow this diet. Then they do it for two weeks. If they're not losing weight, then we have to reduce the calories. No matter what their RMR said or no matter what any calculations that we come up with said, you have to work with the feedback that you're getting from reality. Really, you don't need to go and get RMRs. It's interesting, but it's not critical to your success and even to your weight loss efforts. Then you don't even need to get a DEXA in order to base your diet off. The main reason why athletes who don't routinely have access to a DEXA and will have to pay for access to a DEXA, the reason I would recommend that they get it, is to do an assessment of whether they're in the right weight division or not. If you've ever wondered, "Can I go down a weight division?" Your first step should be to go and get a DEXA scan so you can see exactly how much fat-free mass you have underneath your body fat. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. Then I guess the best way then just for the regular fighter just piecing it together, is really just be paying attention to what their weight is on the scale or a couple of times a week at least, be paying attention to how many calories they're eating every day, and then just adjusting as they go. Is that reasonable? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, 100% correct. You don't even have to do calories. My mind works that way and a lot of people's minds do work that way, and I would say that a lot of fighters do actually. Fighters are either particularly anal and on top of their numbers like that or they don't really care, but a lot like the numbers because it gives them a sense of control, so that is one way. Even if you just know you eat the same stuff every day and your weight's not moving, you don't even have to add the numbers up. You just say like, "All right, I'm going to eat a bit less. I'm going to reduce the fat in my diet. If I always cook with a shitload of oil, I'm just going to reduce some of the oil in my cooking. If I had two cans of Coke every day, I'm going to switch the Coke Zero." You don't even know what the total amount of calories you're eating, but if your weight has stayed the same and you're eating the same, then obviously, you're providing the correct amount of energy for your expenditure. If you want to lose weight, you need to reduce that energy intake. **Sonny:** Okay, that makes sense. Did you just summarize it as to lose weight, eat a bit less, Reid? Is that what we've come down to here? **Dr. Reale:** Pretty much. **Sonny:** \[chuckles\] All these PhD years of research? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, that's it. **Sonny:** That's incredible, but it makes sense. As long as you're paying attention to it and just unconsciously shoveling stuff in your mouth and not moving, if you've got an idea of what you're cooking with, what you're eating, you can adjust accordingly and wing it and "All right, I'll have one scoop instead of two," or something like that, and just figure it out yourself, right? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, correct. That's 100% correct. If you know roughly what you're eating and you just reduce down, but it's important for people to understand, it's not the volume of food, it's the energy content of the food. Often, we can actually keep the same volume of food or even more, but reduce the energy intake, because it's the energy that we need to decrease not the volume of food. The example that I just gave you is, reduce the fat content of your diet, things like oil, butter, margarine, spreads like these, even things like nuts, the fat on your meat, this stuff is incredibly energy-dense. You can remove some of that fat and you can actually put in more vegetables and salads, and things like these. You might actually eat a greater volume of food, but you're eating less energy. I've got a plug for a book that I wrote. Maybe you can provide the link or something. **Sonny:** *Combat Sports Nutrition,* is that--? **Dr. Reale:** That's the one. We've recently updated, mate. Recently updated. Seriously, that probably explains a lot of this stuff in greater detail and in the way that fighters can understand, but exactly what you said, it's eat less, move more, end of story. **Sonny:** Now the problem with that advice though, I'll just hang on just before I go into the problem with that advice, is it does seem that the main thing is, know which foods are energy-dense and which foods are not, and just as long as you then have that knowledge, you can adjust accordingly, right? Is that--? **Dr. Reale:** Correct, yes. **Sonny:** That's important that even if you don't know the exact amount of calories, if you know that this one is dense and it's going to have lots, then that's going to be an important thing to know. Now the problem with the advice of, "Just eat less, you'll be right, monitor yourself," is it's very hard to actually get people enthusiastic about that and to like that idea of that simplicity. People want some form of diet that they can attach onto, and buy into, and follow to a tee. Do you make sure that they get that buy-in or how do you get that buy-in from your athletes? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, it's different for different people. Like you said, a lot of people want-- Nutrition is funny, right? A lot of people want a name for the diet. What diet are you on? It's like, "Well, I don't know. I just eat a lot of vegetables, and some meat, and some carbs, and the way it adds up, it's less calories." It's like that's not as sexy as the carnivore diet, or the paleo, or a modified Atkins, or whatever it is. That's our job as dietitians with the fighters that we work with, is to get that buy-in. The way most dietitians would do it is to just explain the physiology and the nutrition to them, and hopefully, once they get it, that they don't need a name for the diet. This is one of the big benefits of working with the Chinese athletes is like, man, veganism, gluten-free, paleo-- What else is there? Probably some Scientology diet or- but all these things-- **Sonny:** Proabably. **Dr. Reale:** All these things are not a thing in China. When we put them on these plans, they get it. It's like, they don't overthink it. We just say, "Look, all right, you're currently eating four steaks for lunch and three massive bowls of noodles, so we're just going to have one bowl of noodles, and two steaks, and then a bowl of salad." It's kind of easier in a way. **Sonny:** Interesting. **Dr. Reale:** They don't take ownership of it themselves, they just do what they're told. Whereas your Western athletes, sometimes, you really got to sell things to them. Yes, it's difficult, man. That's the difficult job as a dietitian is working with different personality types. In the past, I've had good success just reiterating science to people, and I think because of-- I've never fought MMA, but just [training jiu-jitsu, competing Brazilian jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/), being around fighters all my life and things like this, I think that's helped me get buy-in. I can speak to people on their level. Sometimes, people, it's easy-- It's like, you're not giving them the answers they want because they want the paleo diet, or the monopoly diet, or whatever it is, but if the person that they can't relate to-- Maybe the person that they can't relate to is the reason why they're not buying in, and then this other thing is just another reason. Whereas with me, it's like, I'm not going to give them the paleo diet or the monopoly diet, because I'm going to explain it to them in a way that they understand, and use my own experience to say, "Look, man, I know sometimes it sucks, you got to make white, but trust me, if we do it like this, this, and this, you can still have a bit of cake on Saturday. We're just going to make sure it all adds up in a way," blah-blah-blah, use a bunch of analogies. Often, like money analogies work where it's like reverse saving, like, "You've got this money in the bank, but we need to spend more money than we're making in order to get that bank balance down, because the bank balance is your body fat and things like this." That's what's difficult about being a dietitian is selling things to people, and that's why often, not always, but often you'll find that dietitians that have done the particular sport themself in question, have a lot of success. Like if you're a marathon runner or a cyclist, and you work with cyclists, you're kind of halfway there in terms of generating buy-in. **Sonny:** I can see that where people are not going to take advice on diet from just, "What do you know about our sport, mate? Stick to golf course or something like that." Whereas if you're in the sport, they go, "Okay, he's speaking from a-- At least he's had some experience in." Yes, I understand that. I guess also, I'm taking in that I guess in China, you haven't had the athletes come to you and say, "Hey, I just watched *Game Changers* mate, I want to be Conor McGregor." "Nate Diaz told me, eat your veggies." That's not happening over there? **Dr. Reale:** No, it doesn't happen. The big one that gets in the way, but it doesn't get in the way as much as we thought, maybe it would have, and I'll give you a two-part answer here, but traditional Chinese medicine, because they've got a lot of strongly-held beliefs around healing powers of food, and the hot and cold thing, and eating tiger penis for your vitality, and all this sort of stuff. They do have these kind of held beliefs. A big one is like the hot and cold stuff. There are certain foods in the traditional Chinese medicine beliefs that either have hot properties or cold properties and it's not temperature. It's not like curry is hot and cucumbers are cold, although I do believe cucumbers are cold. It's to do with, I don't know, the yin and yang or the balance or something like this. They believe that there's certain times of the year, and certain times of the day, and whether you're a female on your cycle or whatnot, where you should have more hot foods or more cold foods et cetera. This is a big thing. When we first started, there was a few examples where it'd come up but to be honest, I think now the athletes have been there for long enough and the good thing about China is that, from a practitioner point of view, is the athletes are used to doing what they're told not like Western athletes. They grow up in a system at their school where they don't ask questions, they do what they're told. Then the gyms are even worse in the sporting system, where it's like you don't ever question your coach, very hierarchical, or authoritarian coaching style. They do what they're told, even if they maybe had issues with it. Having said that, what's happened was when we first opened, there was a few times where some things were said and athletes maybe had problems with certain things. They were like, "Well, my grandma said I shouldn't eat this thing after training because--" One of them was like, "You're not supposed to eat fruit after training." This one's a bit of a problem actually. They don't drink a lot of water with their meals. Obviously, athletes need to stay well hydrated, and particularly if you're training twice a day. That one's a bit of an issue that we haven't cured actually, **\[unintelligible 00:54:41\]**, no fruit after training, whereas we put fruit out for them, try and get some carbohydrates and some vitamins and minerals and whatnot. Then what happened is particular with the weight cutting. The weight cutting is where we got a lot of buy-in because they were cutting weight horrendously in their home gyms and then they did what we told them because they were part of his program. We provided all the food for them, we gave them structured plans, we sat them down and told them how it all works, whether they listened to or not, but they just did it because they do what they're told. Then I would say 100% of the athletes that went through a more evidence-based scientific approach to cutting weight after their fights, regardless of whether they won or lost, although we've got a very good win record. We’ve only had maybe three losses or something from over 30 fights I think. That they all say that it was much easier, they felt much better, the weight come off a lot more easy, that the recovery was fantastic. They felt great in the ring-- in the cage, sorry, and et cetera. Then what happens is after they've gone through the process once, even though the first time maybe they didn't really trust it, but they were just doing what they’re told, then they bought in hook line and sinker. Then what's happened is we've got new athletes that have come into the academy and because we've now developed this culture with the first group of athletes, the new athletes have stepped in and you've already got all these advocates standing around the place saying, "I'll listen to these guys. These foreign experts know what's going on. Just do what you're told, you'll be good, you'll be good." It hasn't been as difficult as maybe we thought it might have been. There was a few teething issues but yes, we certainly got the buy-in after they've gone through it. This isn't talking nutrition but even if they're training, Chinese MMA training, tipping all their sports training is the harder, the more, the better. If two hours a day is good, four hours is better. Six hours is even better, eight hours is even better. What's a rest week? What's a rest day? There's no such thing as tapers leading into competitions and things like this. Our head coach has obviously brought a more evidence-based periodized approach to their training. A lot of the athletes were like, "Well, I don't know about these rest days and I don't know why we're doing less on this day. I feel like I've not really trained that hard and all this." After they go to their fights, and they're actually well rested, and they're more poppy, and they're explosive, and they're not feeling so fatigued all the time, they're bought in hook line and sinker to have a more evidence-based scientific approach to their training as well as the nutrition. **Sonny:** Okay, so it’s like give them a chance to see the benefits of an evidence-based approach and you're pretty confident that they're going to be happy with the results and buy-in after that, right? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, and I think this is a good thing for all athletes. I would always tell athletes when they cutting weight, part of your weight cutting process is to plan the weight cut and then evaluate it afterwards. After every time you cut weight, people do this instinctually but it's also good to do consciously, to plan the weight cut and then afterwards assess, “What did I do different this time to the last time? What worked? What didn't work? How did I feel?” et cetera. With our athletes, because maybe they don't have as much insight into nutrition and they don't care, we sit them down, and interview them, and give them probing leading questions to make them think about it. We get some really good quotes out of them about just how good they felt from the weight cut, they didn't know it could be this easy, et cetera, so yes. That solidifies the buy-in. It's one thing for them to go through the process and realize that it was better, but when you guide them and give them the leading question to actually make them say those words that, "Man, this was way better than the last weight cuts that I did with my previous gym." Not that their previous gyms were bad but it's very old school hard training methods in these gyms that they come from around China. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I've seen a couple of documentaries on how Chinese MMA has been developing and it seems like still a bit of the Wild West days over there, right? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, you want to watch one. We got a lot of guys from this gym in I believe it's-- Is it Chengdu or Sichuan area? It's near Tibet area. You want to watch this. It's a vice documentary on YouTube. Type in Enbo, E-N-B-O, and it's called an Enbo Fight Club for boys. It's an orphanage where this local mafia boss gets these abandoned orphaned street kids and trains them to be MMA fighters. They're all like from 12 years old, dropped out of school, and just fight MMA, but they're the best gym in China. We've got those athletes in our program and they're weapons these kids. **Sonny:** Yes, right, that's scary. They're coming off for everyone. Just go back, one thing I want to clarify is that did you ever at a stage then, were you designing diet plans with those hot-cold principles in mind? I wasn't sure about that. **Dr. Reale:** Never. **Sonny:** Never. Okay. Just checking mate, just checking. **Dr. Reale:** I'm against it because I'm like, science, integrity, and all this. I see the value in reaching people on their level so maybe I'm a little bit too digging my heels in here. Maybe you could-- but I'm in two minds about it. Some people say, “Well, if they want to eat hot foods at a certain time, can't you just find foods that you would have them eat but make sure they are the hot variety?” Like if we want them to have protein after training, and let's say chicken is a cold food and beef is a hot food, and they want to eat a hot food, just give them beef, and then you can tell them why we're giving you hot foods because that's what you want. That's one option. You could do it like that where you're sitting on the fence, and I'm getting what I want and they're getting what they want. But then I also think I don't want to lie to people and I want to teach them about evidence-based nutrition. I never rubbish their beliefs, but I would rather be honest and in my mind have more integrity and do what I know to work and explain to the athletes. Because I want them to develop these skills so that when they leave our academy that they know what's going on as well. **Sonny:** Yes, I agree with that. It's maybe something though coming back over to Australia with athletes and just giving them glucose a little bit pre-competition, glucose or after training, whatever, and just telling them that they can have a Red Snake or a Red Frog or just like a lolly. That idea itself with a lot of people have said that, “Here, just mate, have had a couple of snakes.” They're like, “That's junk food, that's lollies, that's unhealthy. I'm not going to touch that.” Have you experienced that as well, that pushback on that side of things? **Dr. Reale:** With our Chinese athletes or just athletes in general? **Sonny:** Just athletes in general? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, for sure, and particularly with fighters because fighting or MMA, it's a relatively new sport. It hasn't had a lot of involvement with evidence-based training and nutrition practices. There's a lot more of these-- how do you term it, these beliefs and these counterculture and subculture lifestyles and beliefs and stuff. Whereas when you talk to a swimmer or a rower or marathon runner, they get it. They've been reading about carbohydrates and electrolytes and stuff for decades. When you tell them, "I have some Gatorade, it's sugar water," they know. It’s like, “Yes, it’s sugar water, but the thing that I need right now is sugar and water so sugar water is perfectly appropriate. Fighters are the same in terms of their needs when they've got these high-energy needs but like you said, it's like some people are resistant to this stuff. I've certainly encountered it but again, the best thing that I can do as a dietitian is just to explain it to them and say it in an honest way. The thing with fighters as opposed to maybe these- -other sports is that often fighters are working with incredibly low energy budgets because they're trying to bring their weight down so there actually might be less room in the diet for some of these junk foods. Whereas if you are Michael Phelps, and you're burning 7,000 calories a day in the pool, maybe he meets his protein and vitamin and mineral needs in 2,000 calories. If he eats 5,000 calories of crap, it doesn't really matter because it's just fuel for the fire. Whereas the fighter is maybe burning 3,000 calories a day gets their protein, vitamins, and minerals in 2,000, but they're trying to lose weight. Instead of eating how much they're burning, they're trying to eat less, so there might be less room for it. There’re certainly times where it's appropriate. But yes, I think it’s, again, from my point of view, it's just about explaining the physiology to them and getting the buy-in that way. There's few situations in a fighter's nutrition program where they have to have candy, so if I really don't want it, I can certainly work around it. The time that I think about when it's appropriate is more like-- one is post-weigh-in because if you're trying to beat these incredibly high carbohydrate targets and carbohydrate is sugar. If you're trying to get 700 or 800 grams of carbohydrates in before you go to sleep that night, it can be quite hard to do that in a sweet potato. Having some sugary crap in that post weigh-in period is completely appropriate. Interestingly enough, people that have these beliefs around not wanting to eat the candy, those beliefs go out the window post weigh-in anyway, so that's an easy fix. Then the other times is like maybe judo or jujitsu competitors who have competitions where they're fighting multiple times throughout the day and you don't want to eat heavy foods in between comps, so candy and stuff is appropriate then. But then you're talking about your fighters in their day-to-day training environment. One Snake is not going to hurt anyone. One Snake’s-- I don't even know, but what is it? It's probably five grams of sugar. That's probably 20 calories, maybe it’s probably 30 or 40 calories max. Again, it's probably not going to make the difference in their performance anyway, so if they really didn't want it, half a banana’s just as good. **Sonny:** You can always find something to substitute in that's going to suit them if they really want it. Is that what you--? **Dr. Reale:** Correct, yes. Nutrition’s-- there's many different ways to skin a cat, and yes, everyone has their tastes, preferences in things like these. A good dietitian will-- That's a dietitian's job, is to understand somebody's requirements, understand their likes and desires and beliefs, and make these things line up. **Sonny:** There's a lot of the mental aspect it seems like to actually goes into play with a lot of this stuff. One thing I want to talk about is going through some of the specifics of the weight cut, maybe some of the methods that you've seen that are inappropriate to use. Maybe first, particularly one I want to discuss with you is the sauna suit and just how that gets used, and what you think of it. **Dr. Reale:** It's interesting. Do you mean in the weeks leading up to a weigh-in? **Sonny:** Yes. I've seen it used in so many ways. My thoughts on it is people see the name sauna suit and think that it's a suit you wear in the sauna and not a suit that simulates sauna-like conditions. Say that six times quick. Should you wear a sauna suit in the sauna? **Dr. Reale:** You can. At that stage, you're just trying to get water out of the body. If that's going to help you sweat more, and you feel comfortable to do so, there's no reason why you can't. The thing that's going to-- and there's a lot of different considerations. We’ll say MMA, we'll just put it in an MMA context, rather than jujitsu or judo or something like this because there's different considerations with same-day weigh-in, multiple-bout competitions and things like these, so one, we’re talking MMA. At the end, you've used all the other weight-cutting methods, the low carbohydrate diet, the low fat in the diet, the low salt, you've brought your body fat down, you've stopped drinking fluids, blah, blah, blah. That last push is just trying to get water out of the body. Any way you do that-- There is some nuance differences between the methods, particularly active versus passive sweating. If you're just going to jog on a treadmill for five hours, and that's probably a dumb idea because you're going to get quite sore from the exercise and the fatigue. In terms of pushing the water out of your body, the thing that's going to affect you the most is how much water you get out of your body. Whether you get 4% of your body weight in sweat out of your body from a bathtub, a sauna with no sauna suit, a sauna suit with no sauna, or a sauna suit in the sauna, it's probably not much difference to your health and then your performance as well. Because as we know with MMA, there's 24 to 30 hours, depending on the event, between the weigh- in and when you compete. I'm not really that concerned, and I certainly allow athletes to make a lot of decisions themselves, within reason but how they feel most comfortable. Some fighters definitely prefer the bathtub to the sauna. Some fighters, particularly in China-- This is the problem we have actually with a lot of the Chinese fighters is that they want to work the weight off. They want to just jog around the block with their sweats on until the weight comes off. Although I think it's fun if they like this, if they've got a big weight cut, I don't want them to work all the weight off. Maybe you do that to get yourself sweating, and you drop a kilo or two maybe, depending on how hydrated you are to begin with and how big you are. Certainly the passive methods, sauna, hot bath, heated rooms, things like these is going to cause less physiological distress and causes less muscle fatigue on the athlete. So in terms of the sauna suit, I don't have a problem with it. The other thing that I would just mention on that is, and I've come 360 on this, it was always intriguing to me when fighters, and you see this in-- definitely, it happens in China. I remember being in Korea five or six years ago with our judo team. These guys wouldn't have a competition for four weeks, five weeks, and they're wearing their sweat suits under their gis and I thought, “What are you doing?" But there's actually something to it. There's a process, and endurance athletes know, it's called heat acclimation, where if you're going to go compete somewhere in the heat, acclimatizing yourself to the heated environment prior to going to the heated environment aids your performance. Part of this heat acclimation process, what happens is your body learns to sweat better, because when you're in a hotter environment, obviously the temperature is hotter, but your core temperature is hotter as well. Our body likes to maintain a fairly static core temperature and the way our body cools down is to sweat. Part of acclimatizing to heated environments, is your body, what it does is it lowers the sweat threshold, so you sweat earlier and you sweat more. There's different ways you can do this. One is to just exercise in heated training environments, but also wearing a sweat suits can simulate the same thing. If you know you're going to do a big sweat the day before weigh-in or weigh-in day, depending on when the weigh-in is, it's actually beneficial to acclimatize yourself to the heat in the weeks leading up to it. You can do it by having saunas every day, you can do it by having hot baths every day, or you can do it by putting these sauna suits on. It's actually not as stupid as maybe people who run off with it thought. **Sonny:** That's new to me. I'll have to go look into that but that's interesting. You're saying that all you really care about then, when your fighters are losing weight is how much they're sweating out, and whatever they decide is their most comfortable way to sweat that out is all right, as long as it's not just working themselves to the bone? **Dr. Reale:** Pretty much, yes. Our head coach, he loves the bath. In his experience with all these fighters, he uses the bath. Where we take our Chinese fighters, we always go to this one city, Jiangzhou. It's definitely not Shanghai. Shanghai is a worldly cosmopolitan tier one beautiful city in China and Jiangzhou is not, let me just put it that way. We go to Jiangzhou every four to six weeks for these fights and there’s no bathtubs there, so they all go to a local sauna. The sauna is definitely longer than the bath, but the fighters don't mind because they're getting the sauna, they're talking shit and doing their thing so there's more than one way to skin a cat. Again, the biggest consideration is how much you're going to sweat. We want to manage our fighters in a way where hopefully, they're going to sweat 5% or less of their body weight for that final sweat. If we get them to 10% above their body weight- -seven to ten days out, we then implement a low carbohydrate diet and then a low fiber diet to empty their guts. They'll typically lose 5% of their body weight through low carbs and low fiber and then also low salt in the last two to three days and some of the fighters even more. That's another good thing about China, there's no such thing as a low carb diet. These guys are always eating lots of noodles and lots of rice so when we finally come to take the carbs out of their diet, they lose a tremendous amount of weight compared to like a Western athlete who might not have even looked at a carb for six weeks prior to their fight, you know what I mean? Our guys actually have reasonably easy weight cuts, of course, some worse than others and there's a few that comes to mind. But yes, if we can get them to 5% or less above their weight division on that final day, we know they're pretty much right. It seems like it's harder for women and then it's also just harder or easier for individual athletes. Who knows why? Just genetics I guess. But yes, that’s where we’re at with there. So yes, again, 5%, even if they had to work 5% off from exercise, I would wait for them to do that, but it's probably no big deal. Sometimes they'll have to-- Actually, with this coronavirus stuff, the fights have started back up again and we’re not even there, but some of the fighters have been going there to Jiangzhou and the sauna is shut down because of the coronavirus considerations. They're working the weight off. They’re there with their sweat suits on, and jogging, and doing star jumps and whatever. It was cold when they first started going there so yes, they must've been struggling. A lot of them took short notice fights so they were probably doing big sweats. Again, MMA, you've got 30 hours. As long as you're a **\[unintelligible 01:14:45\]**, it's amazing what the body can do with 30 hours. **Sonny:** One thing you mentioned there that I've heard a lot is when you ask a fighter, “How do you plan on losing weight?” “Cutting carbs out, cutting carbs. That's the only way to do it, cut carbs.” What do you say to a fighter when that's their response? **Dr. Reale:** Yes, well, again, we're talking two different phases for the actual weight cut. Like that last seven to ten days, you definitely should cut carbs because carbs are holding onto water in the body but we can do that acutely. Really, you can do it in a couple of days if you're training hard but you should be tapering in that final week. You're probably not training that hard that final week so you're probably not burning as much carbs as you normally would. For that reason, we always do about seven days of zero carbs or close to zero so that’s one thing. I think what you're more talking about is during the fat loss phase, when people are like, “All right, I'm not going to eat carbs for six weeks.” Now, the thing is, is that carbs are your body's preferred fuel source for high-intensity exercise. It's very difficult for you to have quality intense training sessions when you're not eating sufficient carbs. For that reason, I generally recommend that we cut the fat. It's somewhat contentious in popular media. Everyone's like keto diets and whatnot, and high-fat this and low carb that, but it's pretty rock solid science that high intensity exercise is improved when carbohydrates are high compared to when they're lower. I always try and get my fighters to reduce their fat intake first before carbs. Now you'll reduce both because you're trying to get energy down but certainly reduce most of the fat in the diet and then start to cut some carbs. Reduce carb portion sizes certainly, particularly on rest days and things like these. But when you're doing two sessions a day and you've got hard sparring sessions and stuff, if you're not having some carbs your performance is going to suffer. The thing is, is that you don't have to go without the carbs, it's just calories. Any way you can get those calories down is the way to do it. If you can get the calories down by reducing a little bit of carbs but more of fat, you still get to have carbs, which are going to fuel your training. Even sometimes people are over eating protein so they can even shave a little bit off the protein side of things. Then of course, if you're drinking alcohol, that's just a waste of calories right there. Certainly get rid of the alcohol first, get rid of not all but a good chunk of the fat and then start cutting your carbs. **Sonny:** It's in that weight loss phase, not the weight cut phase, right, that's the definition, the change between those two, is that not really? **Dr. Reale:** We say chronic weight loss versus acute weight loss or you can just say fat loss versus weight cut. In my mind, whenever I say the word weight cut, I'm always meaning that non-fat loss weight loss, if that makes sense. **Sonny:** Yes. That’s where you're losing the water weight in that last couple of days, so to speak. **Dr. Reale:** Correct. Yes. We say last week, seven to ten days, something like that. **Sonny:** In that last lead up, they've been doing some water loading. I don't think we'll get into the specifics of how that all goes down, but what are some of the problems that you've run into when you're working with professionals that you've had to modify your practice on the go? If you come into it and just something's not working and you've had to shift gears in the middle of a weight cut. **Dr. Reale:** The funny thing it's fairly simple. It's like we know where the weight is stored within the body and we know how it comes out. We just do these things like the carbohydrates are going to bond to the water in your muscles, so we're reducing carbs. Excess salt is going to make you hold onto water, so we dropped the salt. You don't want fiber hanging around in your guts because that's just like undigested plant matter and it's also drawing water in. We're never going to change these things, you're always going to be cutting carbs, cutting salt, cutting fiber. The things that will change is sometimes the calories because ideally-- and here's the thing, it’s like fat loss is all about calories. But these acute weight loss methods that we're talking about, they're actually not to do with calories. At that point, we're not trying to drop fat. We're just trying to empty your carbs stores, empty your gut and get rid of some water. None of these three things are affected by calorie intake. Maybe carbohydrate stores if you over eat calories, but if you just cut the carbs and keep calories the same, you will deplete these **\[unintelligible 01:19:42\]** stores. What we actually want to do in that final week as best as we can is actually keep calories relatively high. You might actually be eating more energy and more calories on the week of a fight than you have for weeks beforehand because we're no longer targeting fat loss. That's a hard thing for fighters to often wrap their head around. It means that you don't have to suffer as much as maybe fighters have in the past. The way we do that is by really bumping the fat out. Before we talked about keeping fat low because we're trying to reduce calories, but in that final week, we're trying to target these other compartments of body mass, and we can actually bring the fat intake back up. This is what they do at the UFC PI in Vegas, we want to trifecta, meal prep service during fight week. They include a lot of high fat sources and high fat protein bomb, little snack balls and things like these. Where was I going with that? Yes, so we keep fat intake and calorie intake relatively high. Now if somebody is really struggling to make weight, the modifications we make is what will actually start to bring the calories down. Not only are we attacking all these other methods, we'll actually start to really bring the calories down just to try and get any extra fat loss that might be necessary and maybe even muscle mass loss because it's like you’re running out of options. It's like we're throwing the kitchen sink at this guy, but he's still just too big. What else can we do? Well, we can drop calories, whereas like that 10% body mass loss, that doesn't rely on any fat loss at all. If somebody is 10% above their weight division, we don't really have to worry about the calories, keep calories adequate. If the guy's burning 3,000 calories a day, give him 3,000 calories but cut the carbs, the salt and the fiber. That's one thing we'll do is bring the calories down. Another thing that we'll do is play around with the water intake. Normally, like our Chinese athletes even, they fight on-- has a similar weigh-in protocol to the UFC where they weigh-in in the morning around 10:00 AM. What we normally do is if they weigh-in at Friday at 10:00 AM, that means Thursday, they’re doing their weight cuddle, Thursday night/Friday morning. We'll just tell them to either cut-- they can drink all day, Wednesday, and even water load until Wednesday night when they go to bed and then Thursday, they get up and don't drink all day Thursday, or they might even drink until lunchtime. Now, if somebody is really cutting their weight close as well, maybe we'll cut the water earlier. Maybe not even cut it completely, but instead of saying you’re going to water load all day Wednesday, it's like, you're going to water load into a Wednesday lunchtime, and then you're just going to do half a liter for the last second half the day, Wednesday. Two things wil6l change. One is that we will bring the calories down lower than we would normally like to and two, will start the fluid restriction a bit earlier. That's some things that we do. Other problems that you run into is when athletes don't listen to you and they start their sweat too early. There's been examples where for whatever reason, a fighter’s gone to this event before we left with- -them. We generally travel as a team. There'll be like 10 fighters going, the head coach and myself, and we go out there and we tell them what to do. We're like, "Drink this. Eat this. All right, now, the time's this, stop drinking right now." But then they go there by themselves. We had this girl, she's freaking out. She's like, "Oh my weight, my weight," so it’s like she thought she'd start sweating on the Wednesday. She's jogging around, she stopped drinking, but then of course, what happens is, she goes back to her hotel room that night, she's like, "Jesus, I'm still not weighing in for two more days." Then she fucks it up, because then she's drinking later than she should have because she tried to cut it earlier than she should have. She's sweating now, although she's then going to replace the fluid and throws a spanner in the works that way. I'm sure, if you've been around fighters, this stuff happens all the time. Yes, they’re kind of the issues that we run into. In terms of the food, they just do what we tell them, so that's handy. I think fighters compared to other athletes, and the nature of the weight cut compared to any other situation in sport, if people don't listen to what you do 99% of the time, the 1% of the time, they're going to listen to what you do, if they've trusted you, is going to be for that weight cut. You've got instant buy-in then. **Sonny:** Then if we could just touch briefly on maybe the dangers in weight cutting? Flo put out a new documentary, I don't know if you've seen it, it's about bad weight cuts. We know that there's that inherent risk. We know ONE FC has got hydration testing if we can believe that they're actually doing that. Who knows? It's all behind closed doors but there are these other ideas out there about how weight can be managed for the sport itself. Is that something that you would advocate for or is it just you're doing the job in the system that's there now? **Dr. Reale:** Both. First of all, I haven't seen that the Flo documentary that you're talking of. Second, agree with your political commentary around the ONE FC weight-cutting situation there. Then third, would I advocate for trying to-- in one's defense at least they're trying something. When you've got people dying from weight cutting, it's ridiculous. What kind of sport do we have where the people are dropping dead? If there was a way that you could fix it, it would be fantastic. I don't know what that way is. Actually, having said that, if you weigh people in right before they fight, that will fix it but there's a whole lot of reasons why that's never going to happen, because of, I don't know, basically, financial interests and logistic interests and things like this. Then if you're going to do a day before weigh-in or even a morning of weigh-in, people are going to cut weight. How do you stop it within that context? I don't know. Would it be a good idea? For sure. Having said that, it's kind of cool, isn't it? Everyone loves it like it's this little challenge. Yes, I don t know. It's super interesting. This is what my PhD looked at. If you can detach yourself from it and not think about the people dying, it's super interesting and really nuanced. It's a really stupid situation where you've got people dying a day before they're going to go and fight somebody to try and kill each other. It's ridiculous. I certainly would, if there was somebody come up with good ways to stamp it out, I'd be all for it. **Sonny:** It's pretty difficult it seems because, anyway that anyone can come up with, there's always people who are going to push for ways around it. They extended the weigh-ins in this. California does that testing that if you put on too much, they will restrict your weight limit. Have you run into that yet with any of your athletes? **Dr. Reale:** No, we haven't actually. I'm not actually sure 100% how that's enforced and whether it is or not, but yes, you're right. Apparently, it's if you put on more than 10% of your weight, the fights cancelled, although, I haven't heard of people doing it. What happens in judo, because in judo, now they have the 5% rule, where you're not allowed to be greater than 5% above your weight division the morning after competition. Two things. Number one is what people do is they still cut, let's say 10% of their body weight, and then they just rehydrate 5%. Then you just wait to see whether you're going to be randomly checked. Then either you're not checked and then you just keep recovering, or you're checked. You step on the scales, you get ticked off and then you keep rehydrating and recover the weight anyway. There's that and then also, there's a certain amount of corruption with the way that these random checks are enforced. You can almost guarantee that if the competitions taking place in Russia, that the officials are not going to randomly check the Russian fighters. Then also, if you're going to randomly check people, why not check everyone? In which case, why don't you just bring the weigh-in closer to competition? There's that issue. I forget what else I was going to say. But yes, so that’s with that. **Sonny:** It's a very complex situation. I don't expect us to get to the bottom of this one right now because who knows how it's all going to play out. There's a lot of information to take in. We only scratched the surface on some of those issues. There's a lot to actually learn about this topic. Final question. What would be something that maybe you would change to maybe bring everyone into a more evidence-based approach for nutrition rather than-- Is there something that you would do to prevent people from clinging on to fat diets or gurus or stuff like that? Is there something that you could say that would make a difference? **Dr. Reale:** I don't know. I think we're heading in the right direction, because it's certainly more of evidence-based now than it was five years ago, or 10 years ago. All sports have followed the similar trajectory, where just over the years, there's more research and there's more-- the science permeates the sporting culture more. I think the biggest thing that probably helps is role model behavior. If some more, high-profile athletes advocated for evidence-based approaches that that would help. I know that's certainly a conscious part of the UFC Performance Institute is doing good work with people and hoping that these top fighters speak about it. Often, they don't. Often, fighters will make a lot of use of the services and completely change their training camps, and nutrition, and strategies, and everything based around advice that they received from the PI and then don't make a mention of it. But then they’ll make mention of somebody or something else that was impactful so that doesn't help. We know from the research, this is common in all sports, but I feel especially fighting sports that when athletes rate who their biggest influence is on their nutrition practices are it's never dieticians and it's never doctors. Certainly, it should be dietitians over doctors, but at least a medical health professional. The biggest influences on athletes behaviors in nutrition and otherwise is always coaches and other athletes. If we had more high profile athletes and high profile coaches advocating for evidence-based nutrition, that would help. Something that the UFC PI is got on the horizon is some coaching, accreditation type workshop system for MMA coaches. IBA, the International Boxing Association, they do with boxing coaches where you can be a level one accredited coach, a level two or level three, blah, blah, blah. Part of these coaching accreditations give you basic coaching knowledge, how to structure training camps, and then also things to do with medical safety concussion knowledge and nutrition, et cetera. I think we're heading in the right direction and long-term, these kind of coaching accreditation schemes will be available for MMA coaches, which will go a long way as well. But yes, again, I think we're heading in the right direction with all this stuff. **Sonny:** I love that. That sounds like a real good plan. Hook me up when that course goes live. Come on mate. **Dr. Reale:** Surely will, mate. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Thanks so much for your time, mate, today or tonight. Really appreciated the chat. Of course, people want more of that information, more of that knowledge. It's the *Combat Sports Nutrition* book, and where else can I get in touch with you? **Dr. Reale:** I'm not very prolific on social media. I'm making concerted effort to do some Instagram posts but I'm pretty bad at it. My Instagram is just my name Reid Reale. Do we say hashtag? Is it #ReidReale or @Reid Reale? **Sonny:** @, this one I think, yes. **Dr. Reale:** I've got a Facebook page, Combat Sports Nutrition that I never posted on. I’ve figured out how to link it to the Instagram, so that will work. They can get my personal Facebook or if they're interested in the notes side of it, Google Scholar has all my research articles and as well as the website research guide. But yes, I guess, Instagram or Facebook is probably the way to do it. **Sonny:** You're not on Twitter- -waging the nutrition wars on there? Is that--? **Dr. Reale:** There's just too many things, man. Now that I live in China, all that stuff’s blocked anyway. I've got a WeChat. You can add my WeChat and-- **Sonny:** What's that? **Dr. Reale:** You don't know WeChat? **Sonny:** I know what it is. \[laughs\] **Dr. Reale:** It's like Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, Instagram, Gojek, Uber Eats, Skyscanner, everything rolled into one. An added bonus, the Chinese government gets to read all of your texts. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] They can answer some of my unread emails for me. We can work out a deal with them. That sounds good mate. I will do this again in the future sometime if I can ever track you down again whatever part of the world you're in. Thanks so much, mate. **Dr. Reale:** Perfect. **Sonny:** Cheers. ![Reid Reale - Weight Loss & Weight Cutting Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_reid_promo-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_reid_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Greg Nelson On Coaching MMA Champions, Positive Culture and Conquering Cancer](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) **Published:** June 17, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Greg Nelson MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/greg_nelson_mma-1024x576.jpg "Greg Nelson MMA › Sonny Brown")I talk to Greg Nelson, who was the coach for UFC champions Brock Lesnar, Sean Sherk and [Rose Namajunas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Namajunas "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Namajunas"). He is a 4th Degree BJJ Blackbelt, Division 1 Folkstyle Wrestler, All American Gymnast and Muay Thai kickboxer along with multiple other martial arts. We discuss how he creates a positive culture in his gym while utilising visualisation, affirmation and building relationships. How this also contributed to his incredible battle against cancer where after beating it once he overcame a different form of rare nerve cancer which has intrigued medical scientists. And we also discuss technical aspects of [coaching and cornering fighters](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching") in the cage. #### Listen To The Interview With Greg Nelson Here: ![Greg Nelson Interview on MMA Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/gregnelson_tsbb_promo.jpg "gregnelson_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown")## Key Topics ### Individualised MMA coaching Greg explains why fighters cannot be coached with a single cookie-cutter system. He draws from wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and other martial arts to build training around each athlete’s body type, strengths, background and psychology. ### Adaptability and live feedback The conversation looks at how fighters learn to adjust when a game plan stops working. Greg emphasises strong fundamentals, live training and a broad skill base so athletes can recognise problems and make changes during a fight. ### Team culture and coaching relationships Greg describes coaching as an interactive process built around dialogue, trust and constant feedback between coaches and athletes. That collaborative environment helps fighters develop both technical skill and better decision-making. ### Mindset, adversity and resilience Sonny and Greg also discuss the mental side of performance, including visualisation, positive culture and the mindset Greg drew on during his battles with cancer. ## Key Takeaways - Effective MMA coaching has to adapt to the individual athlete. - Live training and strong fundamentals give fighters more options when a plan breaks down. - A healthy team culture depends on communication, trust and shared problem-solving. - The same habits used to build athletes can also support resilience outside competition. ## Resources - [Greg Nelson MMA Online University](https://gregnelsonmma.com/) - [Greg Nelson on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/gregnelsonmma/) - [Greg Nelson at The Academy MN](https://theacademymn.com/greg-nelson-mma/) ## Greg Nelson Interview Transcript **Sonny:** Greg, how are you today, man? It's an honor to be on the line with you. **Greg:** I'm doing pretty well, can't complain. Save the normal complaints of what's going on, but other than that, just pushing on, keeping things busy, doing what we can with what we got. **Sonny:** That's awesome. I've reached out to you because you've been a big inspiration to me in a bunch of different areas really, obviously, with mixed martial arts. Your own history and background in mixed martial arts is rather extensive. I know you're All American wrestler, also All American gymnast. You were Thai boxing back in the '80s. You've done work with Shuto Filipino martial arts. I'm sure I'm missing out a few, but I feel like if we go through your entire history, that will probably be a show on its own, right? **Greg:** It's been an epic journey, that's for sure. It's been fun. I love doing the martial arts. It doesn't matter what kind it is really. It's been a pretty diversified trip. I really enjoy it. For me, as well it's about the journey, about enjoying the time and having fun doing what you like and staying healthy along the way. **Sonny:** That's some of the things I've heard you say about the journey is some of the favorite things I've heard you talk about. What I am wondering is then with that background and all those different martial arts, is then how those then informed your coaching practice and how you eventually shifted into the coaching side of things and of course, going on to coach champions, like Sean Sherk, Rose Namajunas, Dave Menne, Brock Lesnar and of course, just coaching a lot of people in general. How did you take that wide experience? Then what was the impetus to transition over into coaching? **Greg:** I think coming from an athletic background, growing up doing just all sorts of sports, but then really narrowing it down when I got into high school into gymnastics and wrestling. Obviously, with gymnastics, you got a multitude of events that you're doing. That went right into the wrestling season. I was doing martial arts at the same time. Right between my high school and going into college, that's when I met Sifu Rick Faye and we started training then and it was just in his garage with six people. It was pretty cool because I was just like, "Oh, you doing all the stick work and doing all this stuff that I only read about on Dan Inosanto. Man, this is great." Right from then on, it was like, everything was interconnected. I was just writing about this. To me, I never really saw a difference between training gymnastics, wrestling, martial arts, it was all intertwined into one thing. It was all about getting better and more athletic, and understanding movement, and just seeing how it all tied together. Drifting into these other martial arts, first, it was Filipino martial arts and Jun Fan martial arts, then Muay Thai, and then Savate and Wing Chun. I just kept on growing with the whole over the years. That has allowed me a huge variety of training methods to pick and choose from depending on who I'm working with. Also just I think it really helped build the creative mindset and being able to just make up stuff when we needed to make up stuff. There's a perfect example of it. We're just making up stuff a lot of it right now. We're just pulling from it. I've been able to pull from so many different martial arts that when I had an athlete that was competing, let's say came in a lot of them had a very strong wrestling background. They're going to need striking, they're going to need to build up their grappling. I would look at where they were, what type of body they have, were they fast? Are they just big or whatever? I could pull from different sources of training methods. That's always been a huge help. There's never been really an empty, where it's like, "Jeez, I don't know what to do here," because you just have so many drills and training methods and tools and techniques over the years. Then all the testing that we've done with all the fighting bit, just my own [wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu and grappling,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) Judo. Just continuing on, obviously Muay Thai and all that other fighters that are in the school, were always picking at each other's brains. How did you develop that? How did that fight feel? What do you think we need to work on? This has just been a constant evolution of building off of each other over the years. If I have a question about something I said, "What do you think, XYZ?" From one of the fighters, from one of the coaches. We have a very interactive team, that we're always dialogueing back and forth with. **Sonny:** I like that. The wide variety of experience that you built on your own now when you've translated into coaching, it's more arrows in the quiver, more tools in the toolbox that you can then pick and choose from and suit each individual athlete based on, you mentioned the feedback that they're giving you and their own thoughts on what they think, right? **Greg:** Exactly, because you can't put all fighters in a cookie-cutter. They're all different. They all have different body types, different strengths, different backgrounds, mindsets, psychology, everything is different with each fighter. You might have one fighter over here, though the base techniques that they need are pretty similar, once they develop that, now it's really the whole Bruce Lee philosophy, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and average specifically your own and mix it up and find what works best for each fighter and go from there. **Sonny:** I like that. One thing with that Bruce Lee philosophy, do you think that it sometimes could be for some fighters that when they're training, they could say, "This works for me so, I don't want to change," when in fact, they might be getting false positives or bad feedback on something. I've had some experience where I see that people take that philosophy and maybe through a misunderstanding of it, use it to-- it makes them go down a path that maybe isn't the best for them. Have you ever seen anything like that? **Greg:** I think especially with fighters, you're going to get feedback pretty fast if \[chuckles\] your philosophy's working or not. We've had game plans that we put together that within the first round, we're like, "It ain't working." That person ain't planned against us, whatever, but because we have this really strong foundation with each one of the fighters, they have a good wrestling background, a good Jiu-jitsu background, with striking background, we can make shifts. They are also going to be able to do that on the fight because when you think about a fight camp for a particular fight might be 8, 10 weeks. All the other times throughout the year, say if there're other fight camps or training and as you said earlier, give me another arrow in the quiver. When they come into the octagon or the ring, wherever they're fighting, they're going to be able to make adjustments on the fly because they're constantly live grappling, they're sparring, they're testing, we have different types of people. That's being a truly mixed martial artist, being able to do that right away. That's something that's really important to see. **Sonny:** That adaptability obviously is huge to be able to do that on the micro-level within a fight and then on the macro-level of just big life changes for a fighter to be able to adapt especially like things we're going through right now. Do you think that adaptability and openness to change and being a coachable athlete, do you think that can be taught in itself or is that something that inherent to just the athlete when they walk through the door? **Greg:** I think you can teach it. You got an athlete who's really hard-headed when he comes in, pretty soon things are going to start happening, where he realizes, “Maybe I got to change”. This is the nature of training, especially when you're walking into a place that maybe has a good variety of really tough well-rounded fighters that will find their holes pretty fast, and they'll fall into suit. Usually, that's what happens, and then as they start to realize and then they'll go to the other fighters and they'll say, “Hey, how did you catch me there as well?" Because you're staying right on his tracks pretty easy to hit you. You got to start getting footwork, you got to start breaking it up whatever it might be. I think that definitely it can be taught and I think just the nature of how we run our program that you're coming into a school that has a really wide variety of martial arts. You're not just getting this really even in the context of just mixed martial arts, no we're going beyond that. We got Filipino Martial Arts, and the Wing Chun and Jun Fan and Savate, and all these different arts that people are seeing, and they're going, “What is that?” "Oh, that's this," and then they see a little element, “Hey I might be able to use that”. It becomes part of who they are, they want to-- They obviously drift into our academy because of maybe they feel that fits there because that's important too. They got to feel they have a fit with who you're training with and the coaches and the philosophy. **Sonny:** That makes sense. It sounds like the feedback that people are getting from the training partners and the feedback people are giving the coaches, you place a strong emphasis on and probably rightly so. One of the things that I remember you saying somewhere is just being appreciative and valuable to the time that any of your training partners are actually giving you, and cherishing that time you get to spend to train with that person and that really stuck with me when you're talking about where it might be that one person who you're seeing there every week for a good couple of months or maybe years. You're getting good rounds in with them and just being appreciative of the time because eventually, who knows? People get jobs, people move on, whatever, that's not always going to be there and especially now in this moment we can think of people that we wish we were training with. How do you create that culture? How do you make sure that people are willing to give that feedback in the gym to their different training partners? What I'm asking is, how do you be a good training partner for people? **Greg:** Well, I think the biggest thing is we always talk about even with our fighters, we're here to build each other up. If everybody's building each other up, well, everyone's going to get better because if you're not getting better, and everyone else is getting better, well, you’re just going to fall behind. We're always there to work with one other, they're always calling each other to make sure that, “Hey can you come in and train at this time? Are you going to be there?” If they don't show up and there I am right away so we're always keeping everybody accountable. A big part of it is also-- and this maybe comes from just the fact that how we started the entire academy when we're training, when we're fighting back in the day, you showed up because you are obligated to not only for yourself but to your training partners. They're going to be there for you, you got to be there for them and those are the people that are going to build you up when you don't feel like being there. Then they're going to chide you, they're going to do whatever they got to do to get you back into the mood. Usually, you get the guys that you find really care for you and you want to be there for them. You want them to-- Hey, I’m not going to say we haven't had people that we've had some issues with. If I got somebody that is not a good fit, they got to go. It's very important to have a good vibe between all the fighters, all the teammates. No fights in there, no personality clashes. Every once in a while without a doubt, it happened in the wrestling room, it happened whatever. You can get so tired sometimes both the guys are so tired, and you got your wits' end and it's just like they're about to throw blows down and I say, “Okay guys. Chill out. Relax, we don't have time for that," and they're, "All right, sorry about that.” Things are gonna happen, but for the most part, they get over that pretty quick, and then they're back to training. The people that have a problem or their ego is too big for that, we just say, “You know what? It’s probably not the best place for you”. You got to get the problem out of there, or else it might fester to the rest of the guys. We have a pretty very friendly team, everybody's friends with each other, they really want to be there to help each other out and that's a big, big part of the development of everybody. **Sonny:** That makes sense. You're very selective in the people that you allow to stay on the team if they're starting to become possibly a negative influence or don't have the right attitude. Let's say this is something that I think is probably pretty common with a lot of gyms around the world that someone gets ready for an MMA fight, they have their fight, win, lose and then you don't see him again for another month until they're ready to come back in and start training. Everyone was there helping him get ready and then they have their time in the spotlight and then we might not see him until they're ready to come back in on their own time. If that was to happen in your gym, you don't see him for a month, they come back in, how do you handle a situation like that? **Greg:** Well, obviously it depends on the fight. Usually, they get done fighting, I want them to take a week off, I want them to just rest and recover. It’s a lot of things have to recover after you get down with a really hard fight. What usually happens, I generally never have to call anybody because the other guys on the team will be the ones calling. They’ll be like, “Hey where you been? What's going on?” Either through our little messenger page that we have for our team, or they'll call each other up. They really police one another really well so I don't have to do that and I tell them straight up. “Hey, if I have to be there every single day to remind you to get in the gym, maybe this is the wrong sport for you. This is not one to take lightly”. All right. We have a pretty good group of guys and they keep each other accountable so-- **Sonny:** That's good I like that. I should clarify injuries permitting. I'm not saying that everyone should come back in before they got the stitches out or something like that. **Greg: \[unintelligible 00:17:04\]** say, “What are you doing here? Look at your face, get out of here”. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** It seems like you have such a positive attitude and that positive environment even to develop that within your athletes to be taking the initiative. I know a big thing with you does seem to be the power of positive thinking and you're big on affirmations, you put them up on Instagram and I think, “Damn, I should be writing down something like this. How does he do it? How did he come up with this stuff every day?” Tell me a little bit about that because I do think it's valuable and I do think it's something that's important and I just want to know, like your mindset how you came to that and how you think it affects you. **Greg:** Well, I think that mindset and that positive mindset, obviously being an athlete, the mindset has to be there. I was fortunate in the fact that I had some really proactive coaches that were probably even ahead of their time. I remember my gymnastics coach in high school which was in the 80s, 1980, he was really big on visualization and having you visualize your routines and to think about what's going to happen if you fall? How are you going to recover? What are you going to think about? Where's our breathing going to be? He was already putting that and planting those seeds in and I started to see that, “Men, this stuff works”. I tell you there's a great story about visualization and about the mentality that I went through, I was learning a release move on a high bar. You’re flying out the bar and you're coming back and re-grabbing the bar and I was just crashing, just wiping out. I wasn't getting the bar, and the bar’s like what? Nine feet in the air so when you'd fall down he's like, “Argh, get back up, do it again." Crash! Finally, he's like, “Get off the bar. It's not doing anything for you right now.” He goes, “What I want you to do, I want you to go home and visualize yourself doing this move over and over,” and I remember him saying this, “However long your adolescent mind will allow you to visualize this, I want you to focus on it.” I was so determined to get this move. I'm going, “I don't know, whatever. If this is going to work I'm going to try it”. The whole weekend I really spent time before I went to bed, when I woke up, random times throughout the day I’d focus. I remember him saying, “Hey, because you've never done it, you're not possibly going to be able to see yourself doing this move so put your face on someone else doing the move first, and then start to work your way through”. I did that I really got to the point where I was visualizing myself doing the move. I remember that Monday, when I came back into the gym, I got up in a bar after our regular warm-ups and went to do the move and I cast it over, boom! Grabbed the bar and I was like, "Ah," and I let go. He goes, "Why did you let go?" I go, "Because I never had it before, I couldn't believe it." I got up and I hit it and I never missed that move again and I did not physically do that move the entire weekend. Right then I was going, "Holy fuck, this works. This visualization, this mental game works." I really started to delve into it a lot more with not only the physical plane of moves over my head in gymnastics, but I brought it into wrestling and then what's going to happen if I get taken down, how am I going to come back? I'd started to visualize matches, I'd started to visualize all these different things and that really started to build the importance of using the mental capabilities, the psychology of winning and performing. Then I remember I got a book and it was by Dan Millman called The Way of the Peaceful Warrior. **Sonny:** I was just about to ask you that because with the gymnastics-- please continue. **Greg:** I read that, of course, he's bringing the martial arts element into it. He's a gymnast and I'm looking at this stuff going, "This is exactly true, this is everything's right in this book. This is awesome." Then from there, on that book I got the warrior athlete from him, so I just kept on building, That was the impetus to really start reading books on this stuff was Dan Millman's books, It was so awesome that there's now these things, and there was books back then, you couldn't Google anything. I still have-- in fact, this will crack you up. I just found this because I'm digging around stuff and there it is. **Sonny:** I got that one behind me as well. I got it right behind me. **Greg:** I'm going over it and I've rewriten all the notes I had, and sometimes you're looking at the notes and I remember my gymnastics coach also wrote for me these, a piece of paper and I have that too. I wish I had it up here, but he wrote down his questions. How do you mentally prepare for gymnastics? How do you mentally prepare for wrestling? What's different? What's the same? He had all these questions that he wanted me to define. I found that in gymnastics, I had to be really relaxed and calm and get my breathing down because everything is so precise and if you too amped up, you're going to wipe out and crash. In wrestling, it was almost the opposite. I was getting super amped up to get out there. It was really getting me to focus on how to prepare myself for these different things and that just naturally went over into the martial arts and how I did the training for martial arts. I think another thing as far as learning and thinking about that is when I got to college, you go and you meet sports psychologists that are working for the university and they started talking about visualization. They start talking about positive feedback in your mind and positive affirmations. When things go wrong, how are you going to deal with it? When a class doesn't go so great, how are you going to stop from bringing that into the practice room? If a week doesn't go so great in the practice room, does that mean it's not going to go well for your fight? It could be the opposite, we don't know. All these things are starting to be developed at this time and that was right away in my late teens and early 20s and that just kept on building from there. **Sonny:** That's fascinating and I think they made a movie too out of the Dan Millman, one of the books, which is interesting. If people aren't into reading they can start with the movie. In fact, I've got some notes on the mindful athlete up on my website that I've put up there. It's a great book, no doubt. When you're dealing with that with your athletes, will you recommend that, "Hey, you set aside a time to visualize." Will you take them aside and tell them how to do it? What type of involvement do you then take on to giving your athletes the structure on how to visualize and how to think positively. **Greg:** I'll do a number of things. Usually, after every practice, I'll sit down and I'll be having a thought or whatever, and I'll write it down on a whiteboard and I'll talk about it. Sometimes it'll be about the mental game, sometimes it'll be about pushing themselves and when they get really fatigued, how to push past that. I'll talk to the fighters as a group and then I'll also talk to them as individuals, watching their training, what they need, what I think they should focus on. Some resources that they could use, things to watch. Ultimately, I'm a big believer in this, that I could sit there and tell them all day long until I can't talk anymore, but they got to take initiative. I'll tell them, I'll point them the way and then I'll ask them, "Hey, did you ever--" "Oh, you didn't. Well, what's the deal?" I'm not just going to sit there and harp on them. I'm going to say, "Hey, this is for you, not for me. I hope you figure that one out, so keep on going." I got another person I got to deal with and then I got an entire [school of students who've got hundreds of students](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) in there. I got to sit there and focus just on you. Especially as a professional fighter or as an athlete, this is something that you should want to do. You should want to prepare your mind, your body, everything for the event to be the best fighter, the best competitor you can be. **Sonny:** Definitely, I think it's that old, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink kind of a mindset especially with some fighters, all you can do is offer up the advice if they want to take it, if they don't you can't spend all day with them, unfortunately. Now that makes sense. Do you put that visualization into part of your morning routine? Do you do that every morning? I know you get up and do-- with the anesthetics, it seems like, and do you make it part of your daily ritual, daily schedule? **Greg:** Well, definitely for every single day, at some point in time I'm visualizing something. Just because I have so much feedback over the years, so I could be shadowbox and I could be doing the Carenza and I could be visualizing weapons coming at me or people coming at me, so I could do it in that manner. I also do when I need to calm myself down and how to try to just get to the zone where you're just relaxing. For me, that's not easy because I'm wired, I'm like a random **\[unintelligible 00:27:09\]** . I have to find a way to do that and so that's part of the thing too and I do this thing. It's pretty simple where I just sit down and relax. I learned this from Brendon Burchard, he's a high-performance coach and it's called the release meditation. All you do is you sit there and you relax and you just say release, release, and you try to release all the tension and all thoughts and if a thought comes in, you just let it release out. You don't try to fight it and it calms you down. I'll try to do that, and to me, that was a very simple thing because I try to think about a candle burning and whatever, in my mind, the candle is burning and a wind is blowing it and then someone's throwing firecrackers in there, that keep it really simple. That's better for me just release, just release all the thoughts that are coming in and relax. I'll do that and that'll be part of my visualization too and I'm really big in that positive affirmations to keep myself on a positive framework, be optimistic about what's going to happen, and enthusiastic about what I'm going to do and excited about what I'm doing right now. Again, you have to train your brain to do that just like you train your body to be stronger or faster. That's not automatic. We always say you have the ants, the automatic negative thoughts, and they're all over. They will overwhelm you. You don't just have positive thoughts that come in and everything's great. It's automatic negative thoughts come in, you got to crush those and then stamp on those ants and then get the positive ones in there. You have to start to train your brain for that as well and that's just something that I've done for a long, long time ever since I was younger. Seeing as an athlete doing it and then getting different directions by different martial artists and how they were visualizing, how they would see things mentally, and I tried to use that same philosophy. It was useful, that really works well for me and then someone would explain something to me, try to teach me. Just whatever doesn't work that well and I'd be like, "Ah, okay, I get it. Maybe I'll point somebody else that way, but that just doesn't work for me." Then there's been things I just added my own twist to. **Sonny:** I really liked that, the way of thinking that it is a [skill that you have to train](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) because it's very easy for people to go on just to look on the bright side of life, cheer up buttercup, but sometimes it's hard. You've got to start small, lift those weights and it's hard. I actually had a good conversation yesterday with the Bishop runs Hip-Hop Chess Federation, is very interesting and he was talking about three positive actions for every one negative thought. I thought that was really good. **Greg:** Those negative thoughts are so-- they’ll bombard you. They could bombard you. They do, and a lot of people let them and it overwhelms them. **Sonny:** Yes, I’ve been there. I think everyone has that. \[crosstalk\] With your affirmations do you write those every day and where do they come from? I look at them, you put them online for other people to read and thank you for that and they’re quite detailed. They're not just "cheer up" or "you’re going to have a great day". You've got some substance behind them that you seem to be putting out every day. How do you come up with those, and where's that coming from, and how important do you think that is, actually writing it down? **Greg:** I have a couple of different ones. There's ones that I say and I do it every day in the shower. I'm in the shower and the first thing I say is, “This is going to be the greatest day of my life”. Right away I'm already preparing my mind this is going to be a great day no matter what happens. I'm going to be full of energy and positivity throughout the entire day. I could be excited so I say that “My abilities and skills are expanding all day long”. I'll say that. Then I'll say, “I have the power of my mind”, and then I go through the alphabet. I choose to be and I’ll say, “Have a good attitude, be action-oriented, be bold and creative, courageous, disciplined, decisive, energetic, excited- **Sonny:** Let's go. **Greg:** ... and just keep on going through that. To have an attitude in grace and health and happiness and integrity and joy and tonnes of love and motivation and never give up, and optimistic, and persevere and just go through the entire alphabet. Man, that's all I think about it and I do that every single day to start off in the shower. **Sonny:** Beautiful. **Greg:** That kind of, there it is and then that part's done. I’ve already directed my brain right away to look at the positive things. Then the other ones I have the sheet of paper, I think you saw me-- One of them is the purpose of my life now is and that was originally again, Sean and I learned it at Brendon Burchard’s High Performance Academy, where he said, “There's a purpose of my life now it’s like, be, do some of that”. It’s like be full of energy and truly excited and enthusiastic and totally engaged. To be bold and courageous, kind of the things I talked about, and to do what I love in a way that I love it. To serve with happiness and gratitude, to seek challenges, blah, blah, blah. Then so that you're at the end of my life, kneeling before my Lord, He’ll say, “Well done my good and faithful servant, you've used your time, your talent your treasure to your ability. That's something that I wrote out. Then the other one it's about what I choose to protect. I choose to protect my integrity, my faith, my choice, my life, my health, my happiness, my energy. That's a very proactive thing that I choose to protect it so that when I get up I'm going to drink water, I'm going to sleep the amount of sleep I'm supposed to get, I’m going to exercise regularly, I'm going to eat clean and green as much as I can. I'm going to plan my day and attack that plan. I'm always going to keep learning and reading and listening and studying. I'm going to value my time and be generous and kind and real and try to be as authentic as possible with people. I'm not going to fear failure, and I'll embrace it. I’ll fail all the time, I don’t care less. Also, I’ll do that. That's something my daughter talks about. She's a gymnastic too and she'd always say, “Fail, fail, fail until you don't”. That's what gymnastics is. You crash and then you get up, you crash, you crash, and then you get it and then you start to perfect it as much as you can and then they say, “Okay, you got that now you got to get something else. Cash, crash, fail, fail”. That's just the process. You're always challenging yourself to do new things, or try new things. You know what I always say, “No challenge, no change”. It's always you’re trying to find ways to challenge yourself. For me, I try not to complain over trivial nonsense. There's enough things that are really there to complain about. Right now we got a big one. **Sonny:** That's true. **Greg:** Now you start looking back and go, “God, I couldn't believe that sometimes I get so irritated because there's some guy taking too long to pump his gas”. Now I’m like, “Wow, that's crazy”. All right. Now look at what we're dealing with and so the other thing is that my thing is to try to use that to protect my ability to be positive and optimistic and inspiring. I take that on as a challenge to do that no matter what I'm facing. This really served me well, especially obviously when I had cancer because now I was like, “So what?” That was like a battle for a solid year and then afterwards, building back up was another process. **Sonny:** Now that story is, from what I know of it just rather amazing could be because my understanding was that the cancer you had was an incredibly rare form of cancer, that they really didn't know about your chances for survival. Obviously, we know how the end of the story went, it all turned out okay in the end, but it looked like it would have been incredibly daunting. I can't even imagine what it would have been like. One of the important things I remember reading about it when you're mentioning that story is that once you found out about it, you didn't want to know the odds of the survival rates, and, oh, all that positive thinking stuff, you put it to the ultimate test. How did that all happen? **Greg:** That I had two cancers back to back and the first one was I had stage four liver cancer, and I had tumors on my spleen and tumors on my liver, and there's kidney involvement. It was like they're like, “Well--" I remember at the time, I was married and my wife was like a bulldog and she was just the one that really got the doctors to start to-- because I was 37 so they’re going, “It’s probably not cancer”. I didn't get any scans or anything and finally, I got the scan and they said, “Come to the hospital”. I went to the hospital and I remember I was so fatigued, I could hardly do anything. I’d sure move and I had to sit down, I'd just be like, “Men this is not normal”. I remember getting off the elevator, and the first thing I saw was oncology, so I'm like, “Oh, all right, God, I have cancer”. In my mind right then, I was like, “Okay, now I have something to fight. Now, I know what it is to fight”. Then when they did the biopsy and they said, “Yes, all right. You got cancer in your liver,” I said, “Okay, what do we got to do?” I told them right away and I said, “Hey, I don't want to hear statistics, I don't want to hear numbers. I don't want to hear anything because that takes into people that it was too late, they quit, they didn't want to fight, too old, misdiagnosed, addictive. That's not what I want to hear, I just want to hear what do we got to do?” If all of a sudden, and just afterwards, I got to find out all the numbers but that first cancer, that was about a 5% survival rate at that point. I ended up going through chemo and dealing with all that and obviously, they don't know how much I train, what my mind is made up, how much physical abuse and pain and discomfort I'm used to taking. They don't have any clue. I remember my wife brought in a picture book and a video, “This is what we're dealing with, so it showed competition, fights and training”. They're like, “Oh, okay”. Well, that cancer went into remission. All good. The tumor’s gone away, it went away and then all of a sudden the second one came. I always tell people, my stage four liver cancer was my easy cancer. Then the second one, I ended up going down to Rochester Mayo Hospital, a very famous hospital in the States here, and a lot of people come from internationally there. For months, I went into the door and I didn't leave for months and they had no clue what was going on because there was nothing showing up in my blood, there's nothing showing up on scans and all they know is that my ability to walk was taken away and I had tons of pain, just nonstop pain, pain, pain. Once again, I was like, “I don't want to hear numbers. I don't want to hear stats, when they don’t even know what to do, and anyways what’s up with this? Keep on figuring out this”. A long story short, they finally did a high powered MRI imaging, they found that my left cyanic nerve was bigger and brighter than my right. They went in, I did a biopsy on one nerve in my ankle then they did a biopsy in my sciatic nerve, and they found that the cancer went into my nervous system. They told my wife at that point. “All right, here's the deal. We know what it is. There's been zero survivors to date. They've all died of pain." I didn't know that, so I was like, "What are we going to do?" My son was two and my daughter was five, a lot of motivation to keep going. I'll tell people when you talk about the negative thoughts and how they come in bombarding you, man, when you're alone in those rooms and you're dealing with this pain, it's just like phew if you didn't have a way to attack that, that alone would just cause a lot more despair than you need. I remembered having that and I'd get one word in mind, whatever it was and I'd just say it over and over until it'd either subside or I'd fall asleep or something would happen where that negative thought would leave. That was the battle, it was just continual. Knowing that, "I know how to do this really good. I know how to fight really well," and I even had mantras there. One of them was, I may have cancer, but cancer will not have me. That was one of them. The other one was, I will fight until I live or die, but either way, I won't stop fighting. I already knew that. I'm not some fantasy person. I know there's a chance. Either way, whatever's going to happen is not just going to be me giving up. It's just going to happen because that's just the nature of this. That was the mindset. I always tell people all those years of preparation and sports and martial arts and the pushing and the driving and developing that mindset and the way to visualize and imagery and all this other stuff was like preparation for this big battle. Then once that battle subsided and I came back, then it was like the second chapter of my life where you start looking at things a lot differently. Like I talked about the trivial nonsense. Things get pretty trivial after that. I remember some of the guys would get so irritated because they would say, "Oh my God, I can't believe this happened," and I'd go, "Dude, at least it's not cancer. Don't worry about it." They be like, "All right. We get it." That's how I think about it now, I go, well-- this whole quarantine thing when it had happened, when it started I'd go, well, I was quarantined inside a hospital room on a bed for months and couldn't get up because I couldn't walk, couldn't do anything. My kids would come in and half the time I'd be zoomed in and out of morphine. Being able to do all this stuff I can do now in this quarantine, I can still go outside. I can still walk around. I can still train. I can still talk to my friends. I can go and do zoom classes. I can do podcasts. I can do whatever. It's a different world and it's nothing like being-- what about those people that are in the hospital right now that are really going through this battle or going through any other battle that they're dealing with? Far worse than being stuck in a house for a little while. I look at life in a much different light than I did beforehand. **Sonny:** That is such an incredible story. There's so much to take in from that, it's amazing to hear it from you. For people listening if they don't completely understand the rareness of that cancer and what you did being so incredible is like that was written about in scientific journals and articles and studied as an exceptional case. I've been thinking, "You're on the cover of the Mayo Clinic magazine, which many martial artists might want to be on different covers." **Greg:** You definitely do. **Sonny:** That just is a testament to just how incredible and exceptional that was, right? **Greg:** Yes, it was. Obviously we didn't know at that point until they found out what it was, but at that point, these other people had gone through it and they didn't know, they found the majority of them post-mortem what they had, and then one person lived and then died. That was what they had basically. I talked to the doctors and that was like 18 years ago. 2002, 2003, that whole span of time. 17 years actually, coming up it was Memorial Day weekend which was coming up in the United States. That's when I was diagnosed with my first cancer back in 2002. It's surreal right now. I look at it kind of surreal. I go down and I talk to the doctors and they say, "Anytime you're in town just come in and let's run surgery. We will drop anything." They want to talk and see how things are going and if I have any residual effects, which yes, definitely I had my sciatic nerve obliterated. I got some issues with my left foot and compared to what it was, they were just like, "This is amazing." The doctors would talk about it and the one doctor who was the head of the neurology department of Mayo, he changed an entire conference that he did because of my case and how they look at a nerve cancer and how they look at abnormalities in the nervous system. It changed a lot of things. I didn't do anything, I just fought. That's all I did. **Sonny:** It's amazing. It is truly an incredible story. It's that testament then to all the mindset that you're talking about, that visualization, affirmations, positive thinking that you're helping develop with the martial arts, that is just testament to it. They seem to be working in unison with that visualization. Going into this quarantine I could tell who had never gone through a big injury before because they're worried like, "My skills going to drop off in six months." For me I'm thinking, actually when I've come back from injuries, sometimes surprisingly the first couple of weeks I'm feeling a bit better. Don't get me wrong, not that I'm comparing a bad knee to what you overcame. My question is, the combination then between that mindset that you used to overcome your cancer and then the actual techniques that we're training in the gym. From the [mental aspect and the mental side of martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erin-herle-submit-stigma-mental-health/) to then the physical, technical hitting mitts, hitting pads, rolling round, cranking arms, how do those two inform each other? How do we help one side develop the other? **Greg:** I think that any kind of hard training where you're pushing yourself and you're putting yourself in very uncomfortable positions a lot and you have to deal with it, is developing your ability to problem solve on the spot and be able to deal with-- You're underneath some big dude is crushing you and you figure out how to breathe and how to not panic. Then pretty soon that becomes almost normal. You think about the person that you were when you started jujitsu or started training and then all of a sudden throw them in with the people that you're training with now, that person will be crushed like an ant. They'd be like,"What's happening?" That process of just you're not only getting physically tougher, but you're mentally getting tougher. You're being able to deal with more and more pressure. Your little aches and pains that you right now just think, "It's pretty normal." Maybe to somebody who doesn't do anything, they'd be like, "God, this is the worst I've ever felt in my life." It's like, this is actually pretty good. I feel pretty good because I'm used to-- obviously, you've had knee injuries or whatever. I think that right there as you start to train and you start to push yourself physically, you have to constantly battle that mind that wants to say, "You're good enough, that's probably good enough," when you know you could do more. There's one little battle right there, especially when you're doing any kind of conditioning or pushing or you set a high rep on a technique that you're going to do and you look at it and you go, "Man, I've been doing this for 22 minutes now and still got X amount of reps." You start playing these mind games, "I can do maybe a little less." That's where you got to fight that. That's where the battle comes in and that's where you start getting a little bit tougher, mentally tougher as you start getting physically tougher. I think that you cannot become really physically tougher and in great shape without first being mentally tough because you'll quit. As soon as you start getting really tired, you start feeling your lungs burning, your muscles burning, a lot of people who don't have that, who don't realize that's what you're yearning for, that's where they're like, "I got to go, I got to quit." Whereas you're like, "I can do one more, I can do one more rep. I can do one more rep. I can do one more sprint. I can do one more go." That becomes something that you take into the rest of your life as well on and off the map because now you realize, "I've been through some pretty tough positions and really uncomfortable positions, I've been in a bunch of really burning lungs, my legs have been crushed all over somebody, I can deal with this problem." I look at a lot of the problems that we have in our everyday life is the same thing, we had to figure out how to deal with this problem. What's the difference? It's just a different problem. Maybe I have to mentally deal with the pressure now of trying to figure something out as opposed to physically dealing, but it's kind of the same process? That's how I look at things. The more I've been around high-performing people like-- there was that place I went to is-- I talked about this, this is Brendon Burchard's High Performance Academy where you're around a lot of people that some of them could be really, really high-performing business CEOs, some of them are high-performing athletes, entrepreneurs, and then, of course, you've got people who have no idea why the heck they're even at this conference, \[chuckles\] and they signed up for. You deal with all these people, but you start seeing the people that are really successful, they have no fear about falling on their face and getting back up. They don't have any fear about the pressure because they know it's going to be normal. They know that the person who perseveres past those pressure, past the part where it's uncomfortable, past the point where you feel stupid, whatever it is, because they realize everybody has to go through this, and the people that persevere past that are the ones that are looked at as, "Wow, look at that person, he's successful." They're still going through the same stuff it's just at a different level now. I think that is a huge part of jujitsu, it's a constant problem-solving, constantly dealing with pressure, constantly asking questions, "What would be the better way to do this? How do I get through this situation?" I always say this, whenever I'm grappling I find myself in a craptacular position- **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Greg:** I'm always like, "All right, well, this is a unique training opportunity." That's how I look at it. I don't be like, "Oh, damn, I'ts a test. My God! I'm just like, "Okay, here we go. This is different, let's figure this out now." **Sonny:** I love that. That's a very good way to look at things. Would you say that it's like you talk about the fear of looking stupid doing something? That's more of an imagined fear that people could have versus when we try martial arts we get a pretty tangible fear, so it gives us a good way to bridge that gap between the imagined fears in our head and the actual physical reality. **Greg:** Yes. Especially if you go into a competition or something and you're getting ready to go out, and there's a chance you can get tweaked, you can get your arm busted or who knows what happens out there. Definitely that's a little bit more of a real apprehension that gets out there it's like, "Okay, this might happen," but then you have to be able to control that say like, "Well, when is the last time I've seen that happen. Well, not really. Did I prepared for this? Yes. Did I worked super hard for this? Yes. Good, now I can go out there and I can get through that." Now, most other fears that are out there are contrived, we make them up, they're imaginary. If you think about originally what was fear based on, against giant tigers or some coming after us or another warring tribe coming to kill us. Stuff like that. Then, all that stuff was taken away and it's like your brain starts to figure out things to take its place. \[laughs\] It's like, "Well, that's not really that scary. To fear making a mistake." Really? That not really a fear. That's like, "Yes, I don't want to look stupid. I don't want my friends to think or people think I'm an idiot." That's not really a fear. That's just a loss. I don't even know what that is sometimes. It's something that we make up. If you just look at half my videos I'm just making crap up, I'm just doing and trying stuff. It's like, "Whatever, we'll see what happens." Sometimes some of the goofiest stuff I do I'm like, "Yes, we'll see what happens," those are the ones that people are like, "Oh, my God, that was great. I can't believe that." I'm like, "Really? Wow, that was just me jumping in a chair." \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I love it. You've mentioned then that the best way or one way to help overcome those fears in a tangible reality is to have a plan for what you're going to go around doing. Shout out to mate Pete. Shout to Pedro who once told me to plan your work, work your plan \[crosstalk\] it's a good one. I wonder then and especially with competition going in with game plans for fighters Sean Sherk, Rose Namajunas, Brock Lesnar, how do you as a coach take all that stuff we've talked about, planning to mitigate fears and then implement a game plan into your fighters over the weeks of a training camp, and then when it comes final? **Greg:** I think the biggest thing as far as mitigating the fear is you're straining and you're training hard, and you're physically pushing yourself and just preparing. You're doing everything you know you can to be the best you can on the night that you're going to go out there. You can't do anything else, what are you going to do? We're ready. We have a saying here because it's Midwest, "The hay is in the barn, all the work is done." Now, it's like we just got to go out there and let it shine. I remember, this is a funny thing because each fighter is so different. If you look at it Sean Sherk, pretty much it wasn't not a big secret what was going to happen. He was going to shoot a double at some point, put you down on the ground, and it was hard to get up once he hit you on the ground. That was a big thing. He had, I'd have to say one of the simplest game plans all the time. If you look at him, he was not that tall. He was maybe 5'7' that's with shoes on. I'm about the same size. For the first 30-whatever, 35 fights of his career there was no one 55 weight class, it was all 170. He was fighting people that were way bigger, and taller. His philosophy, "Whether they're taller than me now, but when I take them down, and I'm on top, I'm the tall one in the cage." What he did because he had a speed, this whole thing was, "How do I transfer, how do I get myself from here to there." Every single day he had a routine that he did. At least three days a week he was just really maximizing combinations and shots in every possible way, focused mitts, cables, shadow boxing, partner drills, wherever. We always joke about it because we always say he had one real guard pass and everyone goes, "Well, yes, but he had like four options." He was so good at it, you could stop it. It was really tough. Then, if you were inside the guard and he could pass it, he was so dangerous inside there because he had short arms, he was like T-Rex, but he could hit super fast and cut you open inside your guard, so that was a problem. He had this very streamlined game that he just developed, "Okay, this is my game plan, I'm going to go in there, I'm going to take him down, and I'm going to be in better shape than they are. I'm going to condition myself so I can just keep going, and going, and going." His game plan never really change that much. He just got better at it. That was that mindset. He was also one of those guys that was a product of the classroom. He would take regular Thai boxing classes with students. You'd look over and some white belt would be arm barring him because he's letting them be," Oh, you got me. Good job." He didn't care because he knew he could absolutely smash the dude. He could play. He'd say, "Okay, I want you to put me in a triangle and choke me out. Ready? Go." Then, he just methodically work his way out. I never ever had to worry about anybody getting hurt rolling with Sean Sherk even though he was the fastest, most explosive just really good fighter. Never had to worry because he just had that mindset. It's like, "Yes, I'm training and having fun." He had also this mindset where at nighttime he'd always ask somebody to come and train. He'd say, "Hey, so do you want to come train tonight?" You'd say, "Yes." Right away he'd go ask somebody else, "Hey, do you want to come train tonight? "Yes." He'd have two people that were going to come to train tonight. He'd write down his third workout when neither of the guys showed up because they were going, "Oh, my God. I've got to keep up with Sean tonight." He'd look at the clock and whatever, you got to train at eight o'clock at night, 8:01, nobody showed up, he was already putting together his thing and nothing would change in his mind. He already had the game plan set. When one of them showed up, he had the plan. When both of them showed up, he had a plan, so he never looked at it as, "Geez, no one's going to show up." He was like, "Okay, let's go," and that's his mindset. That's how he developed. I look at the other fighters that have been really successful, they have that same mindset. They know what they got to get done, and they're going to get it done no matter what. They don't really worry about whether this person is going to show up or that person is going to show up, because they're going to be fighting alone in the ring anyways, so they've already mentally prepared for it. It's funny because you have Sean on one end of the spectrum, then you have Brock on another end of the spectrum. It was kinda like a Sean Sherk but giant . He had already gone through so many different evolutions of his game; great wrestler, NCAA champion. Then he goes from there to, "I'm going to go to the WWE and I'm going to become a world champion at that. Then I'm going to leave that and I'm going to go play professional football." To be the last person cut off for a professional football team without playing football since high school is pretty amazing. Then he's like, "Okay, I'm going to try MMA," and every one of those things, he's risen up to the top at some point. He's very methodical about how he trains, what he does, wants everything. When I would work with him, myself, Marty Morgan, Eric Paulson was even involved with it, he wanted to know what was going to be done during that day so he could know how hard to push. He goes, "I just don't want you to add stuff on at the end of the day, because I'm going to push already." He knew he was. That's just the nature of the beast, He didn't want you just to add stuff, "I think you should add this." "No, I've already put my mind and when it's time to go, I'm going to go hard." The people that we brought in because he could, it's a different game with a guy like that who has millions of dollars and he can bring in whoever he wants. We'd bring in Cole Conrad who was a two-time undefeated NCAA wrestling champion and four-time All American, and Tony Nelson, two-time national champion and four-time All American, and Marty Morgan was an undefeated NCAA national champ, and runner up in third place very good multiple time All American. Then we brought in Comprido who was a two-time absolute world champion in Jiu-Jitsu, then we got Pat Barry. We could bring all these people in and you would put them in a house or wherever and they would live there. He'd pay them and they'd train. His mentality was, "Okay, you're being paid, that means you got to show up. If you don't, then you're just going to get fired." It was pretty straightforward. But all those guys were competitors at the highest level. There was no qualm there. Then his strength and conditioning coach was the strength and conditioning coach for the Denver Broncos that would fly in. So we had the highest level people there. He would get pushed through these really strenuous camps. Then he gets done with that journey, goes back to the WWE and is still a big superstar. It's so funny because you have a different type of mentalities, different athletes. Rose, different entirely again. Comes from an absolute striking base. No wrestling, but became very good at Jiu-Jitsu. She's physically very tough. I've punched her hard in the face, I'm telling you that right now, and she'll punch you right back. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this girl's tough." She's 115 pounds, 120 pounds max maybe. She's tough, but she's also very educated, very smart. I don't have to take that abuse, I'm going to have to learn how to create angles and get in there. I want to have a set plan going in. Each one of them had a very specific mindset, but knew where they needed to be stronger, and had no qualms about developing in that area as much as they could, so it was fun to watch and seeing their growth. **Sonny:** That's great. It's great to hear how their mindset was enabling them to all reach their goals. All were world champions. Brock Lesnar world champion in fourth fight, just absolutely incredible from pro wrestling. It's just incredible stuff. When you're game planning for the fights, you're getting them prepared, how much will you tailor what they're planning on doing? I think we probably went over Sean Sherk not so much, but tailor what those guys were going to do for their individual opponents? How do you approach your athletes and say, "Hey, your guy's really strong here, maybe we work on something else," without coming across as scared or without coming across as being negative? Or thinking that, "Oh, you got to worry about something here."? Do you do that? Do you tailor it much? Or do you just focus on their positives? How do you go about that? **Greg:** I guess it's a little bit of both, because you can't take a person who has a certain skill set and just say, "Oh, guess what? You're going against this guy. We're going to Lego you together and turn you into this person." They already have a specific skill set that they have, so you look at what they have, "Okay, this is where you're great. This is where you're really good. This is where we got to probably avoid as much as possible in this fight. But if we do end up in that position, here's how we're going to deal with it." That's how we look at it. We just say, "Okay, this person's a really good wrestler or a really good striker or whatever their deal is," and then we'd say, "Okay, so now that we know that, how are we going to deal with that? How are we're going to deal with that strike?" You can game plan, especially if you watch-- This is a really detailed version of it, but with Frank Mir, obviously, the first fight, hey, it was still pretty good. He got caught. He thought he actually won, after he smashed him, he gets pulled up, and he thought, "That's it? That's over?" His mindset was like, "Wow, this is crazy." Then he gets his hand raised, and then, "One point." He's like, "What is this?" Then he had to go back. The second fight, we knew what Frank was about. I already knew what Frank was about, so I said, "Okay, here's the deal." We broke him down really well, and it got to the point where we looked at him and said, "Okay, 86% of the time after Frank throws a combination he moves to his right. The other times he moves to the left, so that's a major tendency that we can exploit to shoot in or do whatever. When we're down on the ground, we know he's going to probably try to work that half guard, he's probably going to go after your legs because it worked already. Look at your upper body, it's going to be tough to get you. You're so dominant there." This was a dig on Frank at the same time, because he said, "His submission skill, his ability on the ground is nowhere near mine, blah, blah, blah, blah," and I'm like, "Okay, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to go back to some of my first catch wrestling move that I ever learned in my life, and that's what we're going to drill." That's what happened. If you look at it, it was that reverse half, catch the forearm, trap it, and that's what we drilled. That was pretty much the nuts and bolts of that whole game. Get in the half guard, stop that and just pound him into oblivion, and it went to plan perfectly. We looked at where his strengths were, but, hey, here's what he has worry. How is he going to find anybody with the attributes, the strength, the speed, the explosiveness of Brock Lesnar and then imitate? It's a lot easier to find somebody who's not as fast, is a good grappler, and we have a two-time absolute world champion grappler. He's got some good things. So we were able to find those people, but it's hard to find a person like a Brock. You also have to play with their mindsets as well. You have to keep them strong, what feeds their strength mentally, and you have to bring that into your training. Usually they're pretty smart. Brock was pretty smart when he would say, "Hey, listen, I know we had two really hard training sessions today, but now my body's trash," and I'd say, "Okay, let's do one and then maybe swim tonight." You have to know your own body, because that's where you're going to get injured. Especially as a big, super fast dude, you're throwing that much weight around that fast with another human that big, and you could get injured really fast. He was very smart in that respect, knowing if and when he had to taper down, because he knew he was a great athlete, pushed himself for so many years. You have to trust your athlete too, and you'd know that when he says that he's not like, "I'm a big puss." It's not normal. It's like, "I get it. I get it." You have to be smart with that as well. There's a time where you tailor-make. You can try to say, "Hey, this guy fits perfectly with what we do. We're just going to--" "Game on. Go for it," or say, "Hey, we got to watch out for this person's x, y, z. We're going to move more like this. We're going to put that into our training camp." The other thing, too, is you have to remember, they might be game planning the exact same way. "Here's what they're expecting." Here's a great example of that, Sean Sherk versus Hermes Franca. We watched Hermes. Every time he threw a punch, he'd go like this. Sean was like, "That's when I'm going to shoot every single time." He'd throw that big old haymaker. He could hit hard. He was good on the ground, but that's when Sean was going to shoot. Guess what they were game planing? When we go like this, we're going to lift our knees straight up because he's going to shoot. That's exactly what happened three times. It was lucky that Sean's neck is this thick, and his skull must be super thick because he took that knee square in the face, boom, and was able to continue and keep fighting. He even got caught once in a really tight guillotine, but he was able to deal with that because he already trained for it. He already knew, "I'm a great double leg takedown guy." He wanted people to get him in guillotines a lot, and he would fight his way out of it. He'd figured out. He goes, "If I'm going to shoot a lot, there's a good chance I'm going to end up in a guillotine, or I got to be able to deal past the guard." That was a big focus of his game. That's why it was almost impossible to choke him. **Sonny:** That's funny. I was speaking to Brian Ebersole just recently. He was saying, "Guillotines don't exist. I'm just in a double leg." \[laughs\] My memory of that fight with Sean Sherk, too, is that, it was something like-- Was it 20 takedowns or something like that? I think, at one point it was the highest takedowns in UFC? **Greg:** To this date, number two in UFC history, to this date, 10 years after he fought. He had that probably just to go and go and go and go and go. **Sonny:** There is some debate that fight, that's number one now with Khabib what they score as takedowns could actually be classed as mat returns under wrestling. I think it only puts it for six takedowns for Khabib if you change that. We could make an argument that if we score how takedowns are done in college wrestling, Sean would still be number one. Also, what you mentioned with Brock Lessnar with the reverse half nelson, the crucifix, pirate's crucifix stockades, I love to hear that. I actually did a video on that. I did a breakdown video on that technique. Brock's the best. He's finished the fight with the highest percentage or the biggest name to use it in MMA. That's just incredible to hear. **Greg:** Good game plan. We're going to use the stock, and we're going to tie him up. This is one of the first things I learned way back with Larry Hartsell in the '80s. We're going bring it to life. Because he was such a good wrestler at controlling top crossbody anyways, it just tied in perfectly. We knew, he's going to try to block with that other arm, pin it down. Comprido brought his elements to it. "This might happen. Here's how I want you to control that." We were all just coming together to take that one little area of the game and just master it. **Sonny:** That's incredible. Did you practice that one from half guard? Were you practicing those setups? **Greg:** Yes, from half guard, from crossbody, from everywhere. **Sonny:** That's so cool. I'm so happy to hear that. \[laughs\] Just following on then with that game planning and coaching. When you actually get into the fight then, I like that idea that you can only really change little bits about people's tendencies. We can't let go on together and replace the whole fight. That's one thing I had to tell myself as well and tell people who I'm coaching is that if you watch a video on someone, they're in there with someone else. It's going to be different when you're in there. When they actually get in there, what kind of coaching advice do you like to give? Any cues, or do you use code words, or do you have a backup game plan that you might say, "Hey, switch to plan B." When the fights on, how do you do that? **Greg:** I think because you're trained for so long and you're training with a variety of different people in your own camp all the time, you're going to be able to adapt really fast. Hopefully, you have a good group of wrestlers in there. You got really good jiu-jitsu guys in there. You got really good strikers. You got the ground and palm guy. You have all these people that they're already dealing with constantly. They're going to be able to adapt pretty fast if they need to because it's flow. They feel when they go. This is another really good example with Sean Sherk when he fought Nick Diaz. Going out there, we were like, "We got to take Nick Diaz down because he's got those long hands. He's going to sit out there, and he's going to try to keep you at length and just punch you right in the head. He's got some heavy hands, so we don't want to do that. We want to try to get him down." But when we got there, Nick Diaz was crouched over, totally ready, prepared for the double leg. Sean shot in, he got sprawled on, he got stuck, and then he got back up, he sprawled again. He comes back in the corner, and he said, "He prepared for the double. I can't take him down." I go, "Yes, but he's crouched over. He's as tall as you now, so punch him in the face." If you watch that fight, all of a sudden, in the second round, he's like doing boxing combos and people were like, "Oh my god, Sean Sherk can box." He's always been able to box. It was right there. Then he was able to set up to take down and get him down on the ground from there. It's not like he was just rocking Nick Diaz, but he was punching him enough that it was just like, dang dang dang . It was really fast shots that he was able to set up his takedown. We had to change that whole game plan from first round to the rest of the fight. That was done, "Sean, start boxing. now its time to box. He's as tall as you. He has to change his entire position and his footwork and everything because he's crouched over. He's not normal." That was changing it on the fly but having the ability because he's trained all that stuff already ahead of time. **Sonny:** That makes sense. Just having the advice that you can actually give to someone within the fight is really what they've done outside the fight in preparation. You can't just yell out, "Hey, reverse flying whatever." **Greg:** Yes. That's all I am, too. I'm pretty straightforward in the corner. Sometimes, I hear people yelling entire instructional videos. It's like, " the persons not hearing anything " It's like all they hear is, " wah wah wah ." One of my fighters that I used to corner, I had three commands. It's all I said, hands, that meant something with his hands are open. Leg, and everybody thinks, "Oh, leg kick." No. That meant kicks are open. There it is because he was really good at faking a low kick and head kick, and he knocked out a lot of people with it. As soon as I see the person's hands come in or that neck was exposed, I would just go, "There it is." Sometimes, he would not take it right away. He would start setting it up and look, and then he'd come back and say, "I see it. I see it. I'm going to take it this round." It was very simple sometimes because we worked so well together. We trained so much that he just knew exactly when I said-- With Sean, he already knew what he was going to do, how he's going to do it. Maybe he would have to come in like in that Nick Diaz thing and be reminded, "Hey, you're really good with your hands. Let them go." "Okay." Baam. He was also one of the guys I would just say, "Okay," and then do it. That again is a different type of guy. Just to say okay. **Sonny:** I like that, definitely one of the best guy code word, combo things that I had when I was fighting. One of my coaches, Carlos, was just blue, just blue,simple . That was a coded word, but it was just one word. For you is that, keep it simple. **Greg:** Keep it simple. Usually, in the corner, they hit in there, and the first thing, I'm like, "Sit down, breathe, just breathe." I get them to breathe and get them to try to as much as possible. If they're busy just going, " breathing ," and you're trying to tell them something, they're not hearing anything. It's like, "Breathe, calm down, doing good." I'm also pretty honest. I'll be like, "Listen, you're getting your ass kicked. You've got to figure this out. You got to start doing something now." Sometimes, you need to light that fire. Who knows what's going on in their head. It's like, "Listen, I don't know what's going on, but you're getting wailed on," or I'll say, "Hey, you got to watch that leg kick. You're walking right into it. You've landed your right hand, so walk away. Keep with your game plan but know that he's going to come with that right kick. I guarantee, they are telling him right now, "Kick his leg." Sometimes, it's simple because there's not enough time to tell them all what's going on. I'll also also confer with the other people that are in the corner, and they'll have one thing to tell him. It's one thing. That's it. Because if I'm telling him one thing, someone else is telling him one thing, three things isn't going to be an overload. It's like a lot of times simple. Sometimes it's the attitude like, "Hey, listen, to turn up the heat or impose your will. This guy is about ready to break." **Sonny:** That makes sense. I think that getting everyone in the corner on the same page, and then probably knowing their personalities and the personality of your fighter and doing all that preparation work beforehand. **Greg:** I have a couple of guys that have such booming voices that I'll tell them what to yell. Because, I'm like, "Waah," my voice is starting to crackle. Marty Morgan was like that with Brock because he was Brock's wrestling coach in college. That's the voice he could hear. Anything I had to say I would just tell Marty and Marty would just , "Woo," he had just this booming voice and Brock will hear it. You got to be smart with that, and the voice he hears is the voice you want to be yelling. **Sonny:** I hear that. Yes. Sometimes when I'm in there and I just feel the urge to yell especially where kickboxing coach is,Nick Pudney he's yelling out the advice and I want to yell something, I'll just be like, "Okay, I'll just repeat what Pudz is yelling because I get it out of my system and then, it's just following orders. \[laugh\] **Greg:** These guys see different things. They have a different, they fight differently. They come from a different background so both people are going, "Kick him. Punch him. Kick him. Punch him. Take him down." The guys are, "Aah." **Sonny:** That's so good. Amazing, I'll just finish up with a couple more questions. There's one with Brock Lesnar's training, especially in terms of preparation. At one stage there was, I guess, Bas Rutten had said that when Brock was sparring, he wasn't allowed to be hit in the head, hit in the face. There was something like that. I'm wondering, is there any truth to that? What was the deal? What was the actual-- the truth behind that? **Greg:** There was times where sparring hard and hard sparring for sure. Then there's other times, where it's just like we know that he could take a good shot. He took a lot of shots and we were trying to develop different parts of his game plan. It's like, "Okay, we don't want to sit there and sling punches," we're in there with who knows who, a couple of guys obviously one of them from your part of the world. You don't want to get hit by that dude. Hunt, you don't want to throw his overhand right land it on your head because if it does, it's going to be game over. There was a time where I remember Marty yelling at him. "No." He just yelled no because they both started swinging and somehow they both missed each other and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this is--" but get back in the game plan. There was a time where we didn't want him to just sit there and get into that mentality of trading blows. What are you going to do, train your head to be hard enough to take Mark Hunt's overhand right? Not going to happen, right? Remember how much you get hit in that training camp. **Sonny:** Makes sense. **Greg:** It was like, "Okay, we have to try to get to your game plan, get it in there and have punches thrown at you." Your goal is not to become a striker, it's to become a fighter that wins at what you're great at. There was times where that would happen, but he had to be hit. There's times where I'd say that he's got to be punched in the face a little bit more. We had to bring it up. But he'd been in a lot of crazy things. The other thing, too, is you have to look at what he'd come into the camp with. Does he have a tweak in his body here or there? Obviously, if you ever saw him when he did his, whatever the heck was called a shooting star where he flew up in the air and landed right on his neck. You don't want to have this guy's neck getting snapped back all the time when he had that issue. There was times and places where, when we said, "Hey, you got to pick it up." He would. **Sonny:** That makes perfect sense actually, now that you explained it. You've got a guy who's a primarily a wrestler learning striking, sparring with World Champion kickboxers in K-1 and Pat Barry, Mark Hunt. You don't want to send your athlete in there just to get lit up by them. That's not going to help anyone. So, of course, it would make sense, "Hey, let's work different areas of the game." Like, I guess, what you said with Sean Sherk, working with a white belt is like you want to have people tailor their training to help that person improve. Again, a guy like Mark Hunt wouldn't need to go 100% for Brock Lesnar's head to get his point across of, "Hey, I could have hit here." **Greg:** Yes, I had been for that fight too. If you watch that fight, and you see how much Brock is just bouncing around in an unpredictable pattern, that was planned out. Because I said, "If you give Mark a steady bead on your head, he's going to land. It's going to happen." You got to be unpredictable and move in and drop low for a low ankle pick and then come bounce back up. That's why he was hopping around and was almost like a jumping bean in there, because he was trying to be really unpredictable with his footwork, and then just explode in as fast as he could. That was the purpose behind that and then he'd get out of it a little bit and start swinging and we're like, "No. Get out of there." **Sonny:** That's right. That makes perfect sense. Actually one of my favorite clips of you is where you're talking about the importance of timing sparring, and especially what we know or what we're learning more and more about with CTE. It's like, obviously, holding back on some shots to the head doesn't seem like such a bad idea. \[laugh\] Doesn't seem like such a bad idea now. I send my guys who are sparring, I've got a clip with that with you saying that, talking about the importance of timing sparring and just getting those rounds in because I think it's such an important thing to do. You got to go hard sometimes but life long, right? **Greg:** Yes, you definitely got to go hard, but I was tell my guys this too. I said, "If you know you can already take a really good shot, you don't have to keep reminding yourself that you can take a good shot. You already can." Because guess what? Your brain is not like your body. It doesn't get harder through the contact, it gets softer. There's a time if you're getting zinged a lot and you're getting flashed or whatever, and you're just fighting your way through it, that that little toughness just shuts off, and also, duh, you get hit and it's over. It's like, you got to get out of the game. It's done. Why force that issue? A big part of it is because when I would go and train in Thailand, these guys have hundreds of fights and they play all the time, they're playing. When they do tie pads and they do heavy bag and they clench. They're going hard, super hard, but they're not going to spar like they fight. There'll be nobody left to fight. The whole art is designed to wreck the human body. How could you spar with that? They can have some speed in it and some snap, but they're not out there to try to knock each other out. In fact, if someone gets a little bit out of hand over there, they'll be like, "Whoa, whoa, who, what are you doing? This is not the fight. If you want to fight there's a lot of opportunities for that." You watch some great fighters have hundreds of fights, and you watch them timing sparring and they're having a blast, because they get so good. Training over there, it's like they can read your mind. You're about to do something and it's like, "No. Boom." Why? Because they're so used to playing the game and watching each other that they see this. They see that and they stop you already. A big part of it is being able to educate your eye and your ability to perceive what's going to happen and then be able to just stop it or just move out of the way as opposed to just bang and you never see what's going on, except for flashes of light every once in a while. You want to have the ability to watch and educate your eyes to be able to see what's going on. Then, like you said, there's a time and a place where we got to spar hard and sometimes they'll say, "Okay, hey, we're going to, at this time, at this day, we're going to spar hard, be ready." Get ready for it. You just don't bring them in and say, "We're going hard today." They're like, "Really, great." You can get smashed and injured. You got to be smart with it, especially now that we do know that there is so much more damage being done than we know. This is already a seriously damaging sport to your brain. No reason to increase it. **Sonny:** It's like everyone probably had a fair idea. It's probably not the healthiest thing to do, but now we know for sure. **Greg:** We know for sure. **Sonny:** I like that, just setting a day that, okay, this is the hard spar day. Other times we're playing because we can get so much more reps in and do it for a lot longer as well. The ability to train your instincts and intuition through that play sparring is something I've recently been thinking is just so valuable. **Greg:** It's the exact opposite in Holland. **Sonny:** Yes. **Greg:** It's like, oh my gosh, this is a love jungle. You walk in those play and it is this hard core. Even there now, I guess that you're starting to see that they're starting to address a little bit of that and they're getting more time. At that point, it is going to be the toughest of the tough that can be able to survive in that arena. Maybe somebody gets injured that could have been a great fighter at some point, but they're just like, "Oh, man." It was almost like if you walk into the gym over there with a limp, everyone was like, " \[swirls tongue\] I'm going to get after him." That's great for the toughest guys that just can endure. For everyone else, it's not so great. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense. Great for tough guys, great to prove your toughness in a gym, but for longevity, I'm certainly not so sure about. If we look at [martial arts as one of the goals](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) is to be a lifelong martial artist, then the ability to make the weak strong, certainly we can't just have a sharp pick tough guy competition where the weak get kicked out and never get to do martial arts. I wonder what your advice could be to be a lifelong martial artist. If you were to go back to yourself and visit yourself when you're white belt just starting, what would be the piece of advice you would give yourself or maybe anyone else who wants to be that lifelong martial artist? **Greg:** My thing is, do what you love and love what you do and have fun with it. When you go in there, it's inherent in martial that there's going to be challenges, and there's going to be struggles, but those are something that you're going to want to embrace. Those are the goals. The goal is to find as many challenges and as many struggles as we can and figure out ways to get through them and have fun with it. Don't worry. Nobody's getting paid or getting medals for being the toughest guy in the gym on Tuesdays. It's just the way it is. You can get caught 100 times, but be the toughest guy on whatever you're fighting. I saw that when I was wrestling at the U . You'd watch guys that were getting beat in practice and you're like, "God, maybe this guy's going to lose his spot." The coaches knew that under the bright lights, that dude wins. That's the way it is. Who knows what he's doing? Maybe he's trying new things, he's trying to play around. He's having fun. He realizes we're going to be here for four years doing this hardcore against other guys that all want to win and all want that spot. I got to pick and choose my battles. The biggest battle is to win on the night that I'm supposed to win for the fighters. I even tell that to my fighters, "Who cares if you're in a regular class and you get tapped out? Big deal. Put yourself in as many odd, strange predicaments as you can find because that's how you're going to figure out." Everything that you go through in the ring, you want to be able to deal with it and go through it in the academy far before you ever have to deal with it in the cage. I have My guys that are really good fighters and have many, many, many fights. I'll look over there, and they're getting arm barred by somebody and they're laughing, "Oh my God, I can't believe. I didn't think you were going to take it." That's the mentality I want because then they're having fun and they're being creative, and they're learning and growing and they're not worried about, "Okay, I got to keep my reputation." Nobody knows you're fighter. Have fun. Then, guess what? You're going to have more people want to grapple you because they know, "Hey, he's just having fun. I'm not going to get hurt. I don't have to worry. He's just fun to grapple with." How many different looks and feels do you get when you're that guy? You get them all. That's a huge part of it. **Sonny:** That's beautiful. I like it. It's good advice. Do what you love, love what you do. I love that. I love your sayings. You've got a bunch of phrases that I love. Just to finish up, I'm going to ask you about just to hear it from the man himself, because I've certainly used these a lot myself. Yes, I've used them a lot myself, so I'd love to just hear your explanation of these two, and then, well, I'll let you go. One is just that, "Repetition is the mother of all skill and discipline is its daddy." I like that one. Can you tell me what you think? **Greg:** Repetition is the mother of skill, right? Everybody hears that one. They go, "That's great." But if you don't have discipline, you're not going to put in the rest. Discipline is going to be over there. Daddy's going to be over there going, "Hey, get those reps in. You got to go." You got to have the repetitions, but if you don't have the discipline not only to do them but to do them how you're supposed to do them with the right mindset when you want to and when you don't want to because you said you were going to do them. That's where the discipline comes in. Discipline, that's the name of the game. **Sonny:** That's beautiful. The other one is, "Jack of all trades, master of none; master of few and jack everyone." Love it. **Greg:** That's right. I sell people this. One of the best examples of that, again, I'll bring him up, is Sean Sherk. Everybody knew a double leg take down was coming. Good for you. You got to stop it. He had a couple of guard passes. Good, you know him, stop him. He just had that mentality. Under pressure, and Guru Dan said this once, I remember just saying, I can't even remember when, but it was a long time , Dan Inosanto . He goes, "I might know 600 submissions, but when I've about 50%% pressure, it drops to 50. When it's live, it's down six." I always tell people, especially self defense or fighting, I said, "When is the last time you saw a new punch invented in boxing or a new tool invented in Thai boxing? Or a new single leg, double leg, high cross, sweep single move invented in wrestling?" There isn't any. But, you might have options and different setups, but it's taking those simple things and figuring out, "How do I apply them?" Those arts like that: wrestling, judo, Muay Thai, boxing, if it's not working, it's going to be filtered out pretty dang fast. They figured out what works and now it's about honing those skills, so you're being pretty good instead of being a guy that's going to be great or trying to be great at everything. You can train a whole bunch of stuff. Man, I trained hundreds of things from all these different arts, but I know exactly what my few is that I will know I can jack as many people as possible with. I always tell people for self defense, "Think about this; self defense or a real fight situation, how many moves do you have in your repertoire that you think you could pull off against anyone at any time under any circumstance on any environment?" Man, that goes \[noise\] really fast. I go, "Because what if you're sick and you got the flu?" People don't attack healthy, strong looking people. They attack the people who look sick or they're just like, "You're now sick. You got to be out," or whatever. Now, you get attacked. What are you going to do? No warm up. You can't jump around. You're not feeling as strong. What's our game? What's your move? That's the no jack of all trades, master of none; master of few and jack everyone. You know the ones to jack them with. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Yes. I love it. It's funny with that self defense, one thing I always think of is that the positive mindset and feeling confident when you're walking around is actually one of the key themes of self defense that before the techniques in martial arts get there is that ability just to be confident makes it less likely that people are going to attack you. **Greg:** I used to work at a Target store. It's a retail store here. The one I worked at was the highest crime store in the entire state. It was the second most 911 calls, emergency calls of all business establishments in all of Minnesota. It was chaotic. All the male employees that worked there got stabbed at least once. I got stabbed twice. It was just a crazy store. It was in the '80's. '80's and early '90's where things were a little bit more available to do, and they didn't care. When you walked in, and you were going, "Oh man, I hope somebody goes after it today." No one would, because they could see it. They could feel it. They knew it. But when you're like, "I don't feel so good today. I don't know what to do," that's when the guy would punch. That's when they would fight. It's like they can read it. Having that confidence in that way you're moving, like when you're walking, you're walking like that lion. You're just like \[growls\] yes, and they know that's a lion. Let's wait for the next one to come by. Then also they see the little tippy toed around, doesn't know what he's doing, they're like, "That's the one we're going after." That's a huge part. A huge part of it is having that attitude. It's not being a jerk, it's not being cocky. It's just showing that you're confident in who you are and yes, "You jump me, you're getting a battle, buddy. That's all there is to it." They can read it. They're saying, "Oh, I pass. Next person." **Sonny:** It's so important and I think that really ties together everything we've talked about, I think, today. The ability of that visualization and positive thinking, going into the techniques, having a plan and then how that's going to help you be a martial artist for life and keep you safe. It really puts it all together in a beautiful little perspective, little package, little philosophy. I just thank you so much for your time, Greg \[laughs\] . It's a big honor for sure. I've enjoyed it. As far as power visualization goes, I can go put a tick next to my interview dream list. \[laughter\] **Greg:** It was fun. I like it. Enjoy it. We have the time now. **Sonny:** It's been great for me. I'm trying \[laughs\] to get in touch with people. It's been brilliant. Look, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you, follow you, what's the best way for them to do it? I know you've got the online academy now as well, which might be a good option for people. How do they go about that? **Greg:** That's gregnelsonmma.com for the online academy. Then, of course, in my Instagram, Greg Nelson MMA, Facebook, Greg Nelson so look it up, look at the goofy stuff I do \[laughs\] . Training, having fun, loving what I do. That's it. **Sonny:** Thanks, Greg. Thank you so much. It's been brilliant. I've really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you stay safe and have a great day. I'd love to have you back on sometime in the future when things get back to normal and have another chat. **Greg:** Yes, definitely would love to. **Sonny:** Thank you so much, man. Really appreciate it. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Matt Thornton Interview On The Art of Aliveness & Fundamentals](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-thornton-art-of-aliveness-fundamentals/) **Published:** September 3, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Matt Thornton Aliveness](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/matt_thornton_aliveness-1024x576.jpg "Matt Thornton Aliveness › Sonny Brown")I talk to Matt Thornton. Matt is the founder of [Straight Blast Gym International](https://www.straightblastgym.com/ "https://www.straightblastgym.com/") or SBG and is a 4th-degree Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt under Chris Hauter. We discuss how coming up in the 90s lead him to emphasise training against resisting opponents in a concept he outlines further called Aliveness. Also, how [cross-training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/plus-minus-equals-system-shamrock-training/ "The Plus, Minus, Equals training system of Frank Shamrock") in multiple arts can teach you the delivery systems of each style while also identifying the common themes between them all, which can then be considered fundamentals. And finally, how real-life testing can lead to scepticism and critical thinking to help you identify the [truths found in martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/ "Heath Pedigo on Daisy Fresh Jiu-Jitsu & Pedigo Submission Fighting For the Future"). #### Listen To The Matt Thornton Interview Here: ### YouTube ## Key Topics ### Aliveness as a training method Matt explains aliveness as training with timing, energy and motion against a partner who is genuinely responding. He argues that this is what separates functional martial arts practice from dead patterns, and that it can be trained progressively without every session becoming hard sparring. ### Delivery systems and martial arts fundamentals Rather than treating techniques as isolated moves, Matt looks at the functional delivery systems behind striking, clinching and grappling. By comparing what effective combat sports have in common, he tries to identify the fundamentals that transfer across styles. ### Cross-training, testing and critical thinking The conversation also explores how cross-training and live testing can expose assumptions. Matt uses this process to distinguish between ideas that survive resistance and ideas that work only in compliant practice. ## Key Takeaways - Aliveness is about realistic timing, energy and movement, not simply hard sparring. - Functional training methods matter more than the label attached to a martial art. - Fundamentals can be found by studying what successful delivery systems have in common. - Live testing provides feedback that helps coaches and athletes think more critically about technique. ## Resources - [Straight Blast Gym International](https://www.straightblastgym.com/) - [Matt Thornton](https://mattthornton.org/) — essays and writing on aliveness, martial arts and training methodology ## Matt Thornton Podcast Transcript **Sonny Brown:** I hope you guys enjoy it. Now let's go to the podcast. Hi, Matt, how are you today? **Matt Thornton:** Good. How are you? **Sonny:** Doing well, Matt, doing well. **Matt:** Excellent. **Sonny:** You've been in the martial arts game for a long time. You've grown up as a traditional martial artist. You've now started the Straight Blast Gym, which is well-known now worldwide. My understanding is that after growing up in a traditional martial arts background, eventually you ran into Rickson Gracie and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu around the '90s. Then that really changed and informed your training practice and [teaching methodology](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/) and led to the development of what you call aliveness. I'm wondering if you could start off just by explaining to people how that happened, what exactly is aliveness and how that's important. **Matt:** Sure. I had very little traditional martial arts training per se. I did a little bit of traditional karate when I was a kid. I was always fascinated by martial arts and very quickly became super interested in the question about what works in fights and what doesn't work in fights. I got in fights in school and so even as a boy, it was a question that interested me. When I was in the military straight out of high school, I was doing some research because I knew I wanted to do martial arts pretty much all my life. I was looking for something that was functional and I knew I wanted to do boxing. I had kind of decided that boxing was the most functional thing to do as far as striking. I'd also been in some fights where I'd been taken down to the ground and put in headlocks and all those kind of stuff that happens when you get in fights as a kid. I knew that you also had to have some grappling and some ground fighting. This idea of being able to find at all the different ranges made a lot of sense to me and mind you, this is in the '80s before the UFC or anything like that. Through research, it looked to me at the time like Jeet Kune Do concepts, as it was being taught by people like Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak was kind of what-- that's what it was. That was what they said it was anyway. When I got out of the army, I started training in Jeet Kune Do concepts and eventually became an instructor in that. I moved to Oregon and partnered up with another Jeet Kune Do instructor who was an instructor under Dan Inosanto and I taught at a school there while at the same time boxing at the local boxing gym here for I think the better part of two years. In that time, I had a lot of exposure to the rest of Jeet Kune Do community, the other instructors, and I started becoming really disillusioned with it, which I've talked about before. We can go into that if you want, but a lot of hypocrisy, a lot of saying one thing and doing something else and what I found to be a real inability to distinguish between things that work and things didn't work. On one hand, they would make side-by-side comparisons with an art, like Shotokan karate and talk about how boxing was a superior delivery system, which of course it is for striking. On the other hand, I see these same people doing the most absurd **\[unintelligible 00:05:17\]** C-lock type stuff. If I was going to design something that would get you beat up in a fight, it couldn't even touch this. I had trouble with that view. It just wasn't congruent to me. It was around that time when I started to question all that and think about aliveness and think about why some arts work and why some arts don't work, that I had my run in with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu via Fabio Santos and Hickson. When I went back to the school and explained to them what I had found, which to me was the missing link pretty much, and everything I always looked for, it was clear to me they weren't really interested and weren't interested in what I was interested in. That's when I opened up my own school and the question that it consumed me when I was younger and the one that I still got asked a lot and I think it was a far more common question before the UFC than it is now, but, does this style work? Does Wing Chun work or does this particular style of karate work? If so, why not? My conclusion from doing the Jeet Kune Do concepts and the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and from those years of boxing, was that what determined what works and what doesn't work is really the training method. The dead pattern, so traditional martial arts that had taken out aliveness. What can it help? The combat sports by definition because they cared about results had all kept aliveness. The one thing that all the sports that actually work in a fight or in a self-defense situation had in common, is they were all the martial arts that work in that situation is that they were all sports. What the sports had in common is that all sports train, combat sports train with aliveness. It's not about sparring. You can spar with anything. You can take the ridiculous martial arts and spar with it and over a long period of time, you're going to develop what looks like that MMA. It's not sparring. It is the actual training method itself, which always involves timing, energy, and motion. After that then, what you have is not going to translate. You're not going to have any timing, **\[unintelligible 00:07:23\]** . You may know the technique, but you don't have the timing, you won't be able to apply it. Timing only comes from an alive opponent. It doesn't mean it has to be rough. Doesn't mean it has to be-- it doesn't even mean sparring, because when we talk about drilling at SBG, we're always talking about aliveness. All of our drills are alive, but it does have to be alive. It has to have that realistic energy movement that's not in a contrived pattern and a timing that comes along with it. When you have that, then you can train. As you know I'm sure, an art like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, you can train in a very soft way for lack of a better term, if you're coming off an injury, a way that's not going to get you hurt, a way that's is in no way rough, but actually still develop actual skill that will translate against an opponent because you're training with aliveness. The thing I wanted to get across to people was not each art individually or making lists about what works, what doesn't work or talking about the need for sparring, but to actually talk about aliveness, because my position was, anybody that really understood what I meant by aliveness would be impossible to be fooled again by bullshit martial arts. If you don't understand aliveness, you can be a world champion and I've seen this in action, world champion fighters and boxers and kickboxers who will be fooled by some hokey fake martial arts demonstration, because they don't have that toolkit, which is really what aliveness is to be able to distinguish between what works and what doesn't work. That was what I felt was the most important thing about martial arts, assuming that you're looking for something that's true. That was the message that I ran with then, and have been one way or another talking about for the last 25 years since. **Sonny:** That makes sense. I'm wondering if you've ever run across this, as you mentioned, with Jeet Kune Do, something I've found ironically that the famous Bruce Lee expression take what's useful, reject what's not, add what's uniquely your own. I've found in some instances that people are now able to use that as actually a way of rejecting things that we know that definitely work, because they just say, "Hey, that works for me." I can kind of say that with anything, "Hey, it works for me. Don't judge." Is the difference that makes that saying applicable aliveness? **Matt:** Yes. The difference is the understanding of aliveness, because somebody that understands aliveness isn't going to make that mistake, but that's also where it's helpful to talk about, you mentioned this when we started the podcast, and the reason why I started to refer to things as delivery systems. If you look at Jeet Kune Do concepts, we'll use Jeet Kune Do world as an example, after Bruce Lee's death they kind of broke off into two main camps, right? At one camp, they had guys who wanted to teach and fight exactly like Bruce Lee did. When he died, when he was 33 in 1973, with a limited exposure to things like Muay Thai and some of the other arts that we have now, but constantly growing in my opinion from just looking at his notes, being motivated by many of the same things that interested me, which is research and truth in combat. He was 33 years old, died 1973 and weighed 130-somewhat pounds. Right? They're trying to mimic this particular fighting style. That's one hand. The other hand, which was the Dan Inosanto Jeet Kune Do concepts camp, ran with that saying which Bruce Lee took from Mao Tse Tung actually, not a lot of people know, but research your own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own, is the entirety of that saying, which is a utilitarian philosophy. It makes sense. That doesn't mean that you can just go to treat martial arts as an all you can eat buffet where I'll take a Muay Thai kick and I'm going to blend it in with a Wing Chun punch. I'm going to take this and then I'm therefore I'm going to understand combat, because that's not how fighting works. How fighting works is there's human beings with two arms and two legs. There's only so many ways you can hold another human being down on the ground. Only so many ways you can escape, only so many ways you can throw someone down efficiently, only so many ways you can strike. Those ways are based on science and so from an actual scientific perspective, what we want to look at is what the functional, if we're talking about clinch, what the functional clinch arts all have in common, Judo, Mongolian wrestling, Sambo, Greco Roman, freestyle, folk style. Once you start to understand what they all have in common, the core delivery system of clinch, then you really start to understand clinch. Then you're going to break it into the fundamentals that all great clinch wrestlers, athletes that train in clinch have and share in common, you're going to learn those and pass those on. Then through sparring and training alive over years and years, and usually it takes at least 10 years, if not longer, you begin to develop your own style. That style will be the setups that you like, the particular take down you like. There's some guys who might like a high single and some guys who are going to go for a knee block and somebody else becomes a master of ankle kicks. There's no better or worse in that hierarchy, but what all those guys have in common if they're all truly capable of competing at an Olympic level is just rock solid fundamentals. What Jeet Kune Do should have been looking for or anybody that's really interested in taking a scientific approach should be looking for is, what are the fundamentals of standup clinch, and ground. Then let's create an environment where we can learn those fundamentals safely, pass them on to the next generation. Then through a process of Alive training in a way that's safe, each and every individual have his own style. Just like every Jiu-Jitsu black belt has a very different style. Every MMA fighter has a very different style. For most fighters to imitate, for example, how one of our fighters fights, like Conor McGregor, will be a mistake because Conor has a very unique style. The fundamentals that make Connor capable of doing what he does, those every fighter needs to have. Those fundamentals, standup, clinch, and ground. If they come to SBG, they're not going to learn the Conor McGregor style, what they are going to learn the good fundamentals of standup, clinch, and ground. Then through a process of a Alive training, they will develop their own style. To my way of thinking, that's what Jeet Kune Do actually is and should have been. What I think Bruce Lee was shooting for, but not what happened. I think that that's actually what we do at SBG. **Sonny:** I understand that, and yes, the idea of using those different styles that even within those limitations, everyone's going to find their own way. I've even thought myself, like everyone is probably romanticizes the idea of Jeet Kune Do, but if they were really following that philosophy, wouldn't they all be looking more like Vale Tudo / MMA fighters these days? **Matt:** They should have had a huge head start on everybody else. If they had even following what they said they were doing, which was pursuing truth and all the different ranges, they would have been light years ahead of everybody else when Rorian started the challenge. They would have been the first true MMA fighters. There were some real pioneers that came out of that community. I don't want to overlook that by painting with to wide a brush like Erik Paulson, for example. Well, Erik Paulson's great and was great because he's a great kickboxer , great wrestler, and a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He's working those same delivery systems and that's what allowed him to fight at the level he could fight at. He was the exception to the rule when the vast majority of those students weren't really capable of defending themselves at those ranges because they hadn't been introduced to those functional delivery systems. You can't really pick and choose like just to use a more concrete example as well, someone who's a white belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu isn't going to be capable of effectively applying that utilitarian philosophy from Mao Tse Tung about absorb what is useful and reject what is useless, because they have no idea yet what the fundamentals of grappling are. When they become a black belt, they will, but even there, it's not a conscious thought process. Most black belts don't think to themselves, "You know, I don't like that sweep. I'll do this sweep instead." You just develop that, your body develops it through Alive training, right? Then you find out as a brown belt or black belt, this is the sweep that really speaks to me when I'm rolling. Having a hard roll, these are the routes that I take. Well, it's not like they started out and looks through a book when they were a white belt and said, "You know, I'm gonna use this sweep and I'll take this piece. I'll do Marcelo Garcia's arm drag and I'm going to blend it with Rogers choke . This is not how fighting works. **Sonny:** Yes, not that, definitely. There needs to be I think that fundamental, that base layer of something that we're laying down for people as they come in. As you're talking then, I'm just thinking about even going deeper than that technique with the idea of aliveness. I just thought when I'm listening to debates between vegans actually, which is where it's coming from, but I'm not looking to get into the conversation about, let's just save nutrition for another one. I've heard debates and often one thing they say to, because a common thing that we'll be thrown their ways, "Why are you eating plants? There's some scientific studies I can find that plants react to pain or things like that." The argument that they use is that they don't have a central nervous system and they define it as, if something's alive, it has a central nervous system. If it doesn't have a central nervous system, then it's not alive essentially, I think, I might be. I'm not an expert on that, but my point is, do you think then that aliveness training could be people being aware of their own central nervous system and in some way, training and activating their central nervous system deliberately that gives it that aliveness? **Matt:** That's what goes on with Alive training. What really made it clear to me when I was a white belt was, it was actually a video I saw of Hickson after I first trained with him. Somehow I don't even remember where I had gotten a bunch of VHS tapes of Hickson sparring and training from one of my friends I think that was a grappler. Anyway, one of them was he'd shown up at the Torrance Academy in swim trunks and just iron man wrestled one after the other, everybody's in the room. There's clips of it, pieces of it on YouTube now that has been watched many, many times. At one time, I had like a much lengthier version of it. It's like a 45 minute video of him rolling with everybody. Then at the end, he was sitting up against the wall, like I am here just relaxing and a student was asking him why he thought he was so much better than everybody else. He explained that Jiu-Jitsu's about timing or Jiu-Jitsu's about knowledge or technique, yes, but it's also about timing. Then he talked about training a triangle and he said, you start with the triangle tight and close to take away space. Then you make sure that there's some failure and some success. As the success outweighs the failure, you open up the space more and you slowly begin and he's basically talking about adaptive resistance. The moment he said that, and he said to-- he was telling this person that was his key for how he got good. The moment he said that I realized instantly, that's exactly what's missing in all of these other martial arts. They don't have that sense of aliveness. That's not sparring. I mean it is, but it's just a very small window of what happens, but Hickson did that with everything. What most Jiu-Jitsu instructors call positional sparring, for us in SBG, that's what we call drilling. You can take that principle and you can apply it to boxing. You can apply it to self-defense against the blade. You can apply it to anything. I have SBG instructors who apply it to firearms training, and you can take the steps to break them down as far as introduction, isolation and integration back into the game. We took that little kernel of truth that Hickson was offering there and it blossomed into a whole series of training methods. Epistemology that we use here at SBG and we've been using it since to train, but most combat sports have some version or another of this. Wrestlers train this way, boxers train this way, Muay Thai fighters train this way. There's always that sense of timing and sense of alignment you're getting. Even good Thai boxers when they're working the pads, they're still getting timing from the person that's feeding them the Thai pads. That's what makes those guys really good at Thai pads. What makes them so valuable, what makes them so good to fighters, is that very thing. The fact that they can replicate that level of timing that that fighter might receive in the ring, so that they're actually learning. If you take away that aliveness, that timing and you just do repetitions, like for example, imagine a stuffed dummy and you just do a hundred repetitions of an arm bar from closed guard bottom on a stuffed dummy. You're practicing the movement, but there's no timing, there's no resistance. You could do that for 10 years, your arm bar is still going to suck. Or you can take five minutes and grab someone, put them in that position, let them struggle with you until you finish and then make it a little looser and a little looser the way Hickson said. In an hour, you can dramatically increase your ability to apply an arm lock. That's the difference between Alive training and dead pattern train. The traditional martial arts by definition are really just a series of dead patterns. There are things that you memorize and the other person performs an action, like usually they step forward with some kind of punch, then they freeze and then the other person does all their cool shit which is rehearsed, but that has nothing to do with someone who's going to be moving around trying to punch you in the face. That disconnect, understanding why that disconnect occurs is what aliveness is all about. **Sonny:** It's really being able to get that timing down of working with another live opponent, so a live partner. I guess when I was first thinking it's about your own central nervous system, it's actually really going to be then about the interplay between the two people. You can't have one person who is, yes, aliveness and the other person who is not on board, right? It's got to be that communication between the two? **Matt:** Yes, exactly, because that's where you're getting feedback from. Let me use a different example which what I've used before about tennis. If I wanted to teach somebody how to work on a backhand-- I'm a terrible tennis player, but let's just say, for example, I was a tennis coach. He said, "Hey, I need to work on my backhand." I could make up a tennis kata and we could put him in the garage and they could do an hour of tennis kata every day for a decade. I could criticize them as they go. "Your thumb is too far. Your left pinkie needs to be out more this way. You're right shoulder is too back behind your left shoulder." We could get really nuanced with it. You can imagine what's going on. Nothing from that I think is going to develop good tennis skills. You can take someone, have him throw a backhand a couple of times in the air. We do have to do that. We call that the introduction stage just to make sure they have the rote mechanics of it which usually takes, if the person is just an average human being and it's not something that's too complicated, it usually takes 5 to 10 minutes. Then after that, what am I going to do? I'm going to stick him on the court and I'm going to lob balls at him. I'm not going to try and hit him as fast, as hard as I can, as fast as I can so they can't hit the ball back. I'm going hit it slow, then as they start to hit the ball-- and they're going to miss sometimes because failure is an essential part of a live training. As they start to get better at hitting the ball back with the backhand, I put in more energy and fake a lot more. It's just more resistance, but there's no aliveness until that ball comes in. Aliveness now is me or whatever is shooting the ball, could be a machine, a moving target that's different every time that they have to respond to, so the nervous system has to respond to that. Through that process, of course, they can develop a good backhand. Imagine [teaching tennis the way we teach traditional martial](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) arts. **Sonny:** Yes, no one would do it, right? It wouldn't work. It makes a lot of sense. I guess in tennis it's easy to hit the ball at someone. That's what they're expecting. With, let's say, Jiu-Jitsu, when guys come in, they start drilling. A common thing would probably be they're either completely not giving any aliveness when they start or they're at the opposite spectrum and they're too alive and flailing around. I've always thought that's a very crude method, but what we often use is we go, "Hey, guys, go 50% today." 50% while we're drilling. Like I said, I feel it's a crude method but it can get the point across to somewhere, find that middle. What do you think? Is there a better way to actually teach people how to train with proper aliveness? **Matt:** First of all, I think, you have to explain the process to people. At my gym anyway, we'll explain to them what aliveness is, why we're doing this, the importance of drilling that way so they understand what they're achieving, and also so they have expectations going into it that they should be failing some of the time. If they're not failing some of the time, they're not learning at the level that they could be learning at, so that they don't go in there thinking it's supposed to work every single time and they've somehow messed up. Once we set those expectations, then you can talk to them the way you did and try to explain percentages of-- but the problem is I'm sure you realize this, 50% is completely different to different people. One of the best ways to do it is if you have an experienced coach on the mat or teachers to pick partners for everybody which we often do. If there's somebody who really has trouble relaxing and being able to tone it down sometimes, you might have them go with a more advanced practitioner who's going to be able that kind of pressure without worrying about getting hurt. You have to adjust it, but you're absolutely correct. The key to the whole thing is adaptive resistance. People sometimes think, "Well, it just means you're just throwing people right into sparring," which is not what we do at all. We're throwing them right away into timing, but it's adaptive resistance. We changed from using the word progressive to adaptive, because the word progressive assumes, in a way, that we're always turning it up. Well, sometimes we turn it back down. You, as the [training partner, can adjust that with your training partner](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) however you feel like you need to. In the beginning, the coach will do it for the students until they learn how to do it. For sure, there's going to be people who are much better training partners and other people that maybe you don't want as a training partner because they struggle to use adaptive resistance. Sometimes that's okay too because maybe sometimes you can just match people up by weight and belt level, and they're just really good match for each other. For people who go 100%, it still works out fine. The coach and the students have to figure out how to make it work, but one way or another has to be alive. Otherwise, again, we're just back to dead repetitions. Unfortunately, even with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, that's often how it's taught. They'll show technique and then you roll. The saving grace for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the fact that they roll. Unlike striking, you can roll every day and not get brain damage, so people can roll a lot. The middle piece of drilling the technique that you just learned in class with timing is often non-existent in many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu schools. What happens is a lot of people get weeded out and a lot of people have a longer learning curve than is necessary. Then other people who are more, for lack of a better term, natural athletes are just tough to begin with can just survive that process and through the rolling will develop skill. You still get good. I think Hickson's way is smarter and certainly faster. **Sonny:** Yes, definitely agree with you on that. The idea of people having different percentage levels is always one that's turn me off, because sometimes it would be like, "Hey, we're drilling 50%," and then I'll say, "Put it up to 80%." As the words come out of my mouth, I'm like, "How am I going to know what everyone's different 80% is?" but I like the idea of that's where paying attention as a coach and making sure people are matched up is correct. The other way I've started thinking about a good way to do that is then turning that drilling time into different types of games that people can play, because when people and kids, everyone is playing, everyone has the understanding of what a game is. If someone is taking it too seriously, it ruins the game, right? I'm thinking, is there any way that you've used games in your coaching? Do you have any thoughts on that? **Matt:** Absolutely. You're 100% right. That sets the right tone I think with rare exception. Is it helpful to have the attention too high? It should be a playful environment. It has to be an environment where the athletes, the students feel safe being vulnerable. That's essential. If people don't feel safe being vulnerable, they are not going to take risks. They are not going to want to risk getting arm locked or risk getting someone on their back or risk getting into a particular position because they're afraid they're going to get hurt. It's really, really important that that environment is an environment where everybody, everybody, not just the top people or the upper belts or the athletes, but everyone feel safe. Then they go into the drill with the expectation of failing a good percentage of the time and having fun. To be honest with you, it doesn't take people long to adapt. Alive training is fun. My experience has been anybody who's done a lot of Alive training just can't go back even if they wanted to, because you can't teach it in a non-alive way because it doesn't feel honest and it's boring where you know that there's a better way you can do it. Alive training, what it always does almost instantly is it engages you in an activity where you're required to be present. You can't sit around and daydream in your head. You can repeat a pattern and be thinking about whether or not you left the stove on. When you have to actually respond real time to someone else, then people get absorbed by that activity and people love that too. That's part of what gets people hooked to Jiu-Jitsu. 100%, I think, treating the drills as a game is absolutely healthy. **Sonny:** I like that. While you're talking about people getting into dead patterns, I just thought, is that something where in an actual fighting where you might try and put your opponent into a dead pattern or make them follow a pattern while you're still alive, you're still alive to get an advantage over them? Is that something you can do like getting people into a rhythm and then you're breaking the rhythm? Is that something that could be played with? **Matt:** Yes. A dead pattern, by definition, means it's rehearsed and the same every time. It's something that you've memorized and just repeat over and over again and maybe every once in a while, you put in something-- Did you ever train Jeet Kune Do or Kali? **Sonny:** No, I've done a few classes of eskrima-- sorry, arnis. **Matt:** Usually, in those Filipino martial arts, they'll have stick patterns you do. You click the sticks together in a particular pattern with variations of forehands and backhands, and sometimes you'll do things then call Serrada, where you're feeding an angle and going back and forth, but it is a pattern, right? I'm responding in a particular pattern, you're responding a particular pattern, every once in a while somebody maybe might break the pattern and put in what they call a broken rhythm, but it's still a pattern. That doesn't really relate to anything that happens when you put a stick in somebody's hand and they actually want to hit you in the head. That's going to be a dead pattern. What you're describing is knowing in advance what someone's going to do, and being able to set up, for lack of a better word, an ambush for them, which we do often in Jiu-Jitsu. You'll put somebody in a position where you know where they're going to escape and their escape is your finish. For example, in the early UFCs or the go-to for self-defense as you get a fight with somebody that's not also a trained fighter, you take them down, you mount them, you slap them in the face, you know they're going to roll belly down and you're finishing the job. That's not really a dead pattern, but that is you knowing what's going to happen because you've been there so many times with resisting opponents, alive opponents, and so the person has it, and you can predict with good accuracy where this is going to go and you can be there before they can with your body and with your movement because you have that timing. That really becomes even more apparent when the skill level, there's a huge disparity in skill level where-- What belt are you in Jiu-Jitsu? **Sonny:** Black belt. **Matt:** Okay, so as a black belt, you could be rolling with well, here, let me run this fight. Have you experienced rolling with a brand new white belt who's super athletic, maybe not necessarily a wrestler, but let's say played rugby or something like that and they're a pain in the ass because they're going everywhere and you don't really know what they're doing. Then when they first get their blue belt, they're much better obviously Jiu-Jitsu, but they're a little bit easier for you to deal with because you can now predict what they're going to do when it's not so spastic, right? That really what separates you as a black belt from them as a blue belt to a purple belt is not always knowledge of technique, very often they may know more technique. It's that timing and if your timing is good enough, they can know exactly what you're going to do. You could tell him, I'm going to take your left arm from cross sides, whatever, and do-- That is an example I think of how powerful Alive training is, because you develop this level of timing and timing really is the ultimate superpower in fighting. Everything is predicated on timing and managing distance. If you manage distance and control the timing, you're going to control that event, you're going to control the outcome. **Sonny:** Okay. Yes, I understand that. I know exactly what you're talking about of when someone comes in off the street and you know that they'll do something that you're not expecting and throws you often. I'm lucky my coach Anthony Lang has always said, when people do come in for the first time, make sure you row with them, because that's going to keep giving you a realistic look of what it's going to be like if you did get into a fight with someone at the bus stop, he would say. **Matt:** That's so true. Because after a while, we started doing Jiu-Jitsu versus Jiu-Jitsu, and we've forgot what Jiu-Jitsus versus the world feels like, it's good to go back and revisit that sometimes. **Sonny:** Yes, yes. It's so important, because, yes, you might not run into a blue belt at the bus stop, but \[chuckles\] -- With those patterns then and the traditional martial arts, how do you think they lost that element aliveness? Did they have that spark at one point and it just faded out over time? How did that happen? **Matt:** Yes, that's a good question. Short answer, I don't know. Long answer is I suspect that there's a couple of different reasons and that different ways this occurs. The first way is we never had to begin with and I actually think that is the most common way. There's a lot of when you start to look at some of these martial arts, for example if you take a look at Wing Chun just to pick one, but we could pick anything, you really can't trace the history of that art past one or two guys before Ip Man, so Bruce Lee's instructor. Once you go any further past that, it really becomes hazy and you don't know where it came from. There have been scholars that have posited that it's actually just comes from British boxing or the European boxing, and you kind of see so much of the similarities in the old-style boxing and people in Hong Kong being a port of so much great trade would have had lots of exposure to this kind of thing. They could have taken something like that and then ruined it by making it even more of a set of dead patterns. That could have been where it came from. Other situations where I know for a fact, it was just from the very beginning a con game, you know? I think of this also in terms of religion, because I see 100% parallels between traditional martial arts and religion, both in the epistemology as well as the rationalizations and excuses for them. If you think about it, religion, was there ever a kernel of truth to a particular religion? Oftentimes there is, right? Then in other cases, we know-- You're not Mormon, are you? **Sonny:** No. **Matt:** Okay, Just thought I asked ahead of time. **Sonny:** No, that's fine. **Matt:** I think for anybody that's not Mormon and hasn't been indoctrinated that way. With a little bit of study, it becomes pretty clear that Joseph Smith was a con artist that he set out intentionally to create a religion, both to make a bunch of money and have sex with a lot of young girls. That was his thing. That's what he did. It's even more clear I think with Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, you go on YouTube and watch that guy, and you now he's a sociopath who said himself, he wanted to create a religion so he could get rich and have sex with lots of girls and not pay taxes. That was this whole idea to get tax-exempt status which he achieved by the way. Sometimes I think it's from the get-go, there have been, for example, systems of C-lock that I've seen, where I think they just made it up. Filipino martial arts, they see some people are a little bit credulous, maybe a little bit naive, they create a pattern or they take other patterns they've seen before then they'll say they're grandmaster, whatever, and now you have a system and you have a way to make money. That's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is sometimes I think it may have been functional and then it loses its function because sporting aspects are no longer there. I think Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is a great example of that. We know Japanese Jiu-Jitsu at one point was 100% functional battlefield art that was designed for Samurai and people were fighting in Japan on the battlefield. When they lose their weapon, you kick the guy in the back and stab him in the head before he stabs you and kill him. That's the art. Then as that part of fighting, that kind of fighting phases down through peacetime or because of the evolution of firearms and warfare, whatever it is, it no longer becomes necessary to train in a functional way. Then sometimes it gets systematized and people put it into a series of pairs in some way to try and preserve it. The only way it's saved as a functional [art is if somebody turns it into sport](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/), and then it'll evolve according to the rules. Because they put so much emphasis on [throws as opposed to the ground fighting in judo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/karo-parisyan-judo-throws-in-mma-study/), they really evolved the upper body throws but their ground fighting is not on par with what happened in Brazil, where the rules were, we're going to fight and then nobody, it's a macho culture, nobody else is going to interrupt and we're not going to break it up and nobody's going to stand up and you can basically do whatever you want. In that tradition of South America, you then took what was really old Judo and evolved the ground fighting game because if somebody doesn't come in and break up a fight, it stays on the ground, right? Usually for a long time. Depending on what happens culturally, you can have an art go and then now you have Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, which most places around the world in the United States in Europe that I've gone to is a Japanese Jiu-Jitsu black belt, who's had no exposure to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Judo, is completely incapable of defending himself against a blue belt, and we all know that. They have all the same locks and the names, form and everything, but if you just touch hands and wrestle to submission, your typical blue belt with two years of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is going to wipe the floor with a fourth-degree black belt in Japanese Jiu-Jitsu because of A liveness . Long story short, I think it depends. Sometimes they're created as cons, just like religions and sometimes the function it evolve-- that society evolves in a way where the function is no longer necessarily there. Unless it's turned into a sport where there's people still care about the results, it seems pretty natural for things to devolve into dead patterns. **Sonny:** Yes, okay, I think I get what you're saying. I should say, I'm not a Mormon, but I have been a bit sympathetic to them recently due to their ability to take the joke of the Book of Mormon so well, apparently, okay, and they're not so bad. **Matt:** A disclaimer real quick, growing up in California, I have, and here on the West Coast, United States I've had plenty of opportunity to interact with Mormons and they're always very nice people. If I was going to pick a city to live in and somebody told me it was like 80% Mormon in that city, it'd be fine with me. It's a great place to raise your family, but I do think Joseph Smith was a con artist. I'm sure you can separate the fact that these are really nice people from that. **Sonny:** I'm with you on that. It seems as long as something gets turned into a sport, then it will get that feedback element of aliveness just by definition. **Matt:** That's it. What you said there, feedback element is the key to it and that's the opponent process. **Sonny:** I guess with Scientology for example, it didn't get that feedback because there's no means for it to what L. Ron Hubbard wrote down is just dogma that will never change. Funny example I can think of that is apparently in their Sea Org organization to wash the windows, they're only allowed to use I think vinegar and lemon or something still I heard, because at the time that was the best thing available and that was what he wrote down to use. They don't use Windex or anything like that. Anyway, that's a whole another topic, but that inability to update I guess. **Matt:** What's interesting in relation exactly what you're saying is those arts, especially the ones that I think were designed to be that way-- even if they weren't designed to be that way, I think it happens anyway, where the arts that have stuck around for a really long time, there are dead patterns. Here's another fallacy I run into all the time, you didn't ask it this way, but the way a lot of people will ask it is, "It feels martial arts are all bullshit like you say, why they've been around for so long?" The unwritten assumption, unthought assumption in that premise is because something's been around for a long time, therefore it must be useful which we both know is a fallacy. Things that are around a long time are around a long time, the only thing that tells us is they're good at replication. Astrology's been around for thousands of years, it's not useful. It's good at replication. When you talk about these dead patterns, these dead traditions, something like Scientology, they actually develop through a process of evolution that doesn't require conscious thought or sometimes by a clever con artist like L. Ron Hubbard, they develop defense mechanisms that prevent feedback loops and opponent processes and prevent the whole scam from being revealed. The more feedback mechanisms they have to protect their dogma, to protect it from science, protect it from questioning, the longer they survive in many ways. That's part of what happens. You can look at it and say, "Well, this has been around a long time," precisely because you're not allowed to question it. There's all kinds of traditions they have that protect their weird ideas. You can see the same thing with make-believe martial arts. **Sonny:** I think that's really interesting, you mentioned that they're good at replication, because I'd love to think that the idea that something's been around, it's true or it's good or even if something's popular, it must be great, a lot of people watching it, but we know that that's not always the case, could be a matter of taste. With the replication thing then, I'm wondering if it's like a personality part of human nature then, because I get the feeling that people who would be more resistant to change and more reluctant to open up to new ideas would probably be actually also better at replicating that same idea as well. That mindset seems to go hand-in-hand. "This is good, we're just going to keep doing it over and over again and we're going to get good at doing the same thing." You think there's something to it, that personality aspect? **Matt:** For sure, I definitely think there's something to that. I also think that the real piece to me, the thing that it really comes down to is what motivates the people who are following or choosing to believe in those systems. In my case, for whatever weird reasons, I was motivated to understand what works and what doesn't work in fighting. As a young man in my early 30s, that meant I cared a lot about who I can beat, not beat and being able to be good. That eventually gave way to being a teacher and taking pride in my work in other ways. The fact that I was motivated by what actually works, that's what kept me asking questions and created a volition to do aliveness. One way or another, I would have gravitated to something functional. I've seen other people that that's not interesting to them. If their main goal in martial arts isn't that it works or that it's functional or to be able to defend themselves or that it has to be true, but more the social aspect of it or they just like clicking sticks together or maybe they like to collect patterns. There are people that like to collect things like stamps and things like that. That's what motivates them. They're not really going to be moved by you and I talking about aliveness because that's not their main interest. I do think that there are also people who are motivated by the same things that drew me to marital arts, maybe the same things that drew you to martial arts. For a while, wind up getting fooled and/or wasting time. I know there are people like that, because I get thousands of emails from them over the years because they're grateful. When that happens, when they all of a sudden realize, like for example my friend, Rokas, who edits a lot of our videos was an aikido instructor, who on his own said, "I'm going to try it out against MMA and see if aikido works." When the obvious happened, he had a choice, "Do I now pretend that didn't happen or do I let aikido go and take a path on towards functional martial arts?" He, thankfully, took the path towards what's true, but what if he wasn't motivated by what's true, right? Could have gone back and decided to stay in aikido, but that's proof, positively there are people in those systems who just don't know, just like there's people that get sucked into Scientology or Mormonism or whatever. They've never really heard the arguments for evolution or critical thinking applied to religious dogma. I hadn't. I grew up in a fairly conservative, religious family and it wasn't till I read on my own that I hadn't learned anything about evolution. It's not like you learn about a lot about that in American high school or secondary school. I think the conversation is worthwhile to have. **Sonny:** I think so too. Just a quick side, you said the person who's doing aikido, is he on Youtuber's Martial Arts Journey I think? **Matt:** Yes. **Sonny:** When he first uploaded, I followed his dealings with aikido and going into Jiu-Jitsu and it was interesting and he did take a good perspective on things. With that perspective, I was just thinking, as you said, you're motivated by what's good or being good and for us, that's being good against alive, resisting opponents and I was thinking for the people that have fallen into that repetitive style of patterns, it's probably their perspective is they are following what's good but they've got good at those repetitive patterns, that's their concept of good. They're the best at repeating those repetitive patterns without a doubt. I guess, in society there's some people-- not some, there's definitely a need for that, right? People who can just go out to work, that it's the same thing over and over again, but then we also need the people who're going to bring in the new stuff and the new ideas as well. Would you think that that's roughly--? **Matt:** For sure, I don't have any problem with someone-- of course, I want to live in a society where people are free to do whatever kind of martial art they want. We take that off the table, of course. I don't have any problem with someone who really wants to train and learn aikido. What I have a problem with is when they start teaching aikido and they think that it's going to help people defend themselves in what could be a life or death situation. What happens so often is you have aikido instructors, using aikido as an example but it could be any fake martial art, who will run into someone like me or you, who they know has a background or is a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, would say one thing to us, "Well, I train it for cultural reasons. Aikido is about spiritual development and mastering the inner self. We're not really talking about fighting people. We're just on a different journey," and it all sounds really good, but then if you were to drop in and have a hidden camera and microphone in their aikido classroom, you're not around, that's not what they're offering. I don't think that's healthy for people. Let's use another example, we talked about Rokas, I don't think it would have been healthy for Rokas to continue doing aikido after he made his discovery because he's smart enough to realize it didn't work. What are you left with then after that? You're left with trying to rationalize and defend the position that's pretty indefensible and then teach it to other people. The whole thing is really dishonest in a way. Like you said, yes, doesn't work, I've discovered it doesn't work. If you want to learn how to fight, go do MMA, go do Brazilian Jiu-Jujitsu. I'm going to teach for and he has some other reason there, that's fine. I just rarely see that happen. **Sonny:** Yes, I hear you, I think that idea of it being dishonest is a big one, because from what you're saying, it's like if people want to say, "Hey, I do this art, and I'm really good at repeating these patterns, I'm really, really good at it." Sure, you are good at repeating those patterns, no doubt, and if they want to say, "This is a beautiful art, this has so many elements of beauty, and look at how I'm moving, and it's a beautiful thing I'm doing," it's like, yes, that can be beautiful, it's beautiful, but I think the distinction is if they say, "This is a good combat martial art," and you have to go, "Hey, that's not true, that's not the truth." **Matt:** Right, and on top of that, in a way, I'm still giving them too much credit, because anything somebody would say about Aikido as far as benefits, and usually they'll chime in on things related to self-actualization or development of people's personalities, I believe is, you found in much larger quantities in an alive martial art like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The things that have benefited me in terms of maturing as a human being, and using my job, my art, to be a better human being, those lessons through martial arts came about as a direct result of the pressure of alive training. It wasn't that I got a belt or learned a certain volume of techniques or read Asian philosophy. It’s the trials and journeys of having to tap thousands of times for 15 to 20 years, and all that comes along with aging, and passing on the information, and dealing with your own ego when someone younger comes in. Do you still roll? Then, you roll, and the whole thing, and to avoid that process, to take yourself out of that process, out of rolling, out of the alive training, I think is bad for human beings. The most valuable to me about the art, personally, is a direct result of the fact that it's alive. **Sonny:** I'm with you there really a hundred percent. I'm probably giving them the benefit of the doubt, that other perspective, but in reality, there's probably not a lot of people who do take that perspective, like, "Oh, no, this is no good for self-defense, I'm just moving around in a beautiful art form." That's probably not as common, and you do have to look at if you're in a group that would allow a lot of dishonesty, because probably the majority of people would say that what they're doing is good combat, and if you're in a group that everyone's not telling the truth, then how are you going to get those insights? It can't be good. **Matt:** You wind up like Steven Seagal. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] He's another kettle of fish, oh dear. Do you think then, with your talk on those delivery systems, are all the delivery systems, then, that you're relating to, are they those alive martial arts, or is there anything you go, "Hey, we do a little bit of take something from a Wing Chun." Do you ever take anything from that, or the aliveness is from those martial arts that have always had that in them? **Matt:** Speaking for my curriculum, SBG is a big organization, and there is some variety in the different coaches. So, speaking for myself at my gym here, our ground fighting is all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There's some wrestling mixed in there, but again, there's some wrestling mixed into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, because of the influence of Bob Anderson, and Rolles Gracie seeing how that influenced Jiu-Jitsu. Then, the clinch is primarily derived from Greco, but also there’s some Muay Thai, and there's some Folkstyle and freestyle and I learn anything awesome from another wrestler about clinch, we immediately put it into the curriculum. The stand-up is a variation of boxing. For me, it's more boxing. For some of the other gyms, they might be more Muay Thai-based, but to me when you talk about boxing, or Muay Thai, or Boxe Francaise Savate, it's essentially the same delivery system. If you're really good at any functional martial art, it's pretty easy to go back and forth between the other arts of the same range. So, a judo black belt, in my experience, is going to have a bit of an edge on somebody that's not a judo black belt when they do Greco. I had the privilege in the past to work with really good Olympic-level Greco-Roman guys, and there were some things that they had to get used to with the grip and things like that, but man, they were still animals in the clinch, because the fundamentals that define a good, for example, hip toss, are the same in Mongolia as they are in Judo as they are in Folkstyle. So, it's really easy to go back and forth, but you can't do that with a traditional martial art, because it's just not the same delivery system. Like I said earlier, what we should be looking for is what they have in common. A lot of the other coaches in the gym, for example, one of the things they'll say is, "It's just wrestling, it’s all wrestling." I say, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, to give credit to my coaches, because that's where I learned it from, there's that level of integrity to say, "I've learned this from--," and we pass that on. But, from a scientific perspective, saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Japanese Jiu-Jitsu should, and ultimately I think, will sound a lot like saying Canadian geometry, or Japanese, and that's where we should be going, to the point where we're just talking about wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu, whatever word you want to use, but its scientific finding on the ground. **Sonny:** Okay, I really like that and agree with you. It seems like your motivation, or your search in martial arts, is then finding essentially, the truth between all those different combat sports, Muay Thai clinch, Sumo wrestling clinch, Greco, Judo, whatever works between all those, is going to be the truth, the fundamentals. **Matt:** The fundamentals of that delivery system, the things that everybody needs to know how to do, that everybody's going to do more or less the same way, that define your ability to be able to play the game. That's all based on human movement, as Connor would say, it's all essentially basic human movement. It's the same now as it's always been, because we only have two arms and two legs. So, in many ways, we're rediscovering it, and I'm sure if we were to go back in time, I suspect when the Greeks fought Pankration, we'd see something that looks very similar to what we're doing now, because they had hundreds of years to work on it. That’s ultimately what our goal is. Then, the SBG way is to really limit yourself in class, and I try and do this when I teach. The actual curriculum and what we teach in class, to only the fundamental movements, and then what that does is, that actually creates more room for freedom of expression than you would otherwise have. A lot of people, I think, get this part wrong too, because the more you get into the weeds about, for example, your particular sweep-- obviously, you're going to have routes you're very good at as a black belt, and if you pass that on, I go here and then they do this, then I go here, and then they do this, you have this long chain of movements, it may or may not relate to 90% of the people in that room ever. I’ve never seen another black belt Marcelo Garcia has taught that has his game, but if you focus just on fundamentals and then let the students play in an environment, like you create an alive game like you were talking about before, ultimately what you're going to get is a room full of black belts who all look completely different, which is how I believe Jiu-Jitsu and fighting should be. That goes back to ... no part of it. But, you really style as a coach and a teacher, you stifle that process, when you go beyond the fundamentals, because then you're actually giving them a style, which I think is a mistake. **Sonny:** That's a really big concept for me to get, I think, but makes a lot of sense that you just focus on the truth. You're just teaching students the truth of all martial arts that works across all styles, which you call, "Hey, those are the fundamentals," and then from that foundation, their own form of expression is going to grow out of it, and that they're going to end up looking different, but because they have the truth as their basis, it's all going to be good, it's all going to be efficient, effective martial arts. **Matt:** It also means that conversations like Gi or NoGi, MMA self-defense, don't really matter that much, because the fundamentals are the fundamentals. There's no special mount escape I do if I'm caught in a 7-Eleven parking lot that's going to be different from what I'm doing in Jiu-Jitsu at the gym. It's the same fundamental human movement. So, when you have a school that focuses on fundamentals like we try and do at SBG, you'll have some athletes that want to compete IBJJF, and I can go to that, and they can compete, and they can do well. You'll have some that want to fight, a few that want to get in the cage. They can do that and they'll do well. Some of them prefer not wearing the Gi, some would prefer wearing the Gi. It doesn't really matter, because if you really are good at fundamentals, you should be able to play-- you'll be better at some than others, but you should be able to play at all those different theaters of operation and do well. If your game falls apart when you put the Gi on or take the Gi off, or somebody is allowed to punch you in the face, by definition you don't have good fundamentals. **Sonny:** Okay. That's huge and then, would it be-- a lot of people might even have misconceptions in of what your idea of fundamentals are, because it's really that it's fundamental movements that-- **Matt:** Yes. I get asked a lot, what is a fundamental? My basic answer to people is, I can list specific techniques, specific human movements, but the real answer is, it's going to transcend venue, it's going to transcend uniform, it's going to transcend bodies, it's going to transcend era and it's going to transcend geography. Just like I said, there's no such thing as Canadian geometry. Take a rear naked choke as an example, an efficient rear naked choke, you also have to define our goal. Our goal isn't just working a fight, our goal is being as efficient as possible in a fight, which means to use as little energy, strength, risk, explosiveness as possible, use as little as possible to achieve our goal. As little as possible, but no less, right? That's a never-ending measurement that hopefully, as we continue learning the art gets more and more refined, to when somebody can become a black belt, they'll be doing the same movements they did as a blue belt, but just so much more efficient. That's our idea. There's also more efficient ways to mechanically do things. We're always refining that, too. When we find a more efficient way to do a fundamental, then we will do it. For example, rear naked choke, there are the rough fundamental mechanics you can look at and to the naked eye, especially somebody that didn't have a strong background in Jiu-Jitsu, they would not be able to tell the difference. The hands appear to be in roughly the same space and everything. You and I both know there are more efficient ways to perform that rear naked choke, if you know how to apply it the right way, in particular, get connection and all the things that Hickson and people like Henry Akins teach. That level of efficiency doesn't change when you put the Gi on. It doesn't change when you take the Gi off. It doesn't change when I teach it to my tiny wife. It doesn't change when I do it as a 275-pound man. It doesn't change when a child does it. It doesn't change in MMA and it's not going to change in the street. That's the efficient way to do that rear naked choke, and that's a fundamental movement. It's a fundamental human movement and we're going to teach that to everybody that comes through our door, because I think it's something they need to learn. Over time and it takes a long time, but over years, everyone will find their own best way to get into it, how they get into it, their own little way of getting into it. Then, the temptation is when you become a teacher is to teach you a way of getting into it, which I think is a mistake. I think what you want to go back to do is just teach the core fundamentals, and then create a game where your students can find their own way to get into it. **Sonny:** That makes a lot of sense. We know that the setups are important, the entries are important. We know that's everything and you're not going to be able to get it if you can't get there, so let me show you 20 different ways to get there. Again, getting there is that element of, I guess, personality and body type and-- **Matt:** Right. If, instead, you have a game where one side is starting on the back, for example, and the other side is maybe trying to do an escape or some particular movement. The person on the back is allowed to go for the rear naked choke and you set the timer and you do five minutes each side and switch and you do that for 45 minutes. Everybody in that room will figure out their own little ways to hand fight, their own ways to get that choke. You might show some things-- I'm not saying we're restricted in, like, we never show good entries like to do. But, by really keeping the curriculum close to the fundamentals, I think what you do is you accelerate the students' learning curve, because they're really only focusing on the things that really, really do matter, at least in class. Then, you're creating an environment where each athlete has maximum room for freedom to develop their own way of doing it. When I go to schools that aren't SBG sometimes and I watch their classes, I will know that the [teacher teaches his own style or her own style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) because I'll watch all the students that are all trying to do the same kind of guard, the same kind of sweep, they're doing the same kind of pass. It's just such a really inefficient way to do JIu-Jitsu, because I've never seen two black belts that should roll the same way, or do. Everybody has their own style and if I just taught what I do well at my gym, I don't even know if I have any black belts, since I have my own way of doing it. Mechanically, what underlies my movement, under the surface, the structure, the skeleton of what's going on, that's the same for me as it is any of my other black belts. **Sonny:** I really understand that because, for me, I feel confident showing something that, "Hey, this works in my game, get off your gut." That gives me the confidence to actually teach it, just basically teach it with confidence. I've been figuring out the ways that we can allow people's personality to grow. The way I've been thinking is, when they're doing those techniques, instead of saying, "Hey, this is the setup, this is the way." It is just paying attention, watching and then offering something from experience that a coach can say, "Hey, try this, see how it goes, you're close to it already, maybe give that a go and see." **Matt:** Absolutely. I think the main thing is create games. This is actually really easy to do with Jiu-Jitsu. It's a little bit harder to do with stand-up, but with jiu-Jitsu, it's so easy because we can just make positional games. If we're talking about a choke, for example, we can have people starting in the position where that choke occurs. So, I may have shown that choke in class, and then when it gets time to drill, I'll have them start with a choke almost all the way on. Most of them are going to have close to 100% success, maybe 90% success, and then have the person resist and then we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll do it and then like Hickson said, we'll back up and back up and back up. Now, eventually, we're back to a position where you're just on the back, but your hands aren't engaged around the neck yet at all, and now they have to start to get in and get the choke. Before that, we will talk on the fundamentals of hand fighting and how you efficiently get the choke on. Then, we're going to let them play and the majority of the class, if it's an hour class, for example, 40 minutes of that class is going to be drilling, and it's going to be drilling in the position or the place where the lesson occurred today in class. We have 10 minutes of introduction stage where we're showing whatever the fundamental technique is, fundamental human movement. We make sure everybody can do it without resistance, which honestly doesn't take long for most people, 5 to 10 minutes maybe. When you see they have it, now you set up a drill. One of my requirements for SBG coaches is they should be able to create a drill for anything instantly like that. They can look at any problem, any skill set, whether we're talking about, stand up clinch or ground, even firearms, whatever it is, and they can immediately come up with a live drill that the class can then do. The focus on the class is that drill, and through that process, they are getting time. At the end, sometimes we have 5 or 10 minutes at the end of the class, we'll let them start in that position, just wrestle to submission if it's Jiu-Jitsu, and that's the context. So, we've isolated a piece of the game, we've introduced a piece of the game, we've isolated it with timing and then we integrate it back into the whole, whatever it is Jiu-Jitsu, MMA, and let them play with it. That's our process for doing it. To be honest, it's really simple with Jiu-Jitsu, because Jiu-Jitsu lends itself so well to positional sparring. You can think of any technique, you can think of a Jiu-Jitsu, you can make a simple drill really by just having people start where that technique occurs and giving them a particular place and then going back to it over and over again, so they get timing at that little spot. **Sonny:** Just show them the finish and let them play to work their way there. I guess when you said drilling too, it's fun drilling. It's not, "Oh, drilling." it's, "Yes, drilling, we're having fun." **Matt:** If you like rolling, you're going to love drilling the way we drill. I can hear sometimes-- so for example, before the virus hit, I was spending some time really focused on the Upa with my students, and because I found that a lot of people were doing it wrong or what happens is often they get away from it, partially because the elbow-knee escape works so well, especially even some of my black belts. We would do rounds during my competition team practice. We'll see one side holds mount, one side escapes. Five minutes and then I let them switch. I like longer rounds because it gives your body time to problem-solve. They'll go back to what they do best. So, if they are good at the elbow-knee escape, they will keep doing the elbow-knee escape over and over again. So, then, as a coach I now have to change the game. I say, "Okay, five minutes one side hold mount and attack and one side escape, but you're only allowed to Upa . And you can hear some of the students in the class go, "Oh." But, to me that's fun and they are still having fun. Now, it's a challenge, now they're only allowed to do that one escape. They are going to have to get sneaky and figure out ways to , if they black belt on top of them, f igure out ways that he or she doesn't quite see it coming so they could still make it work. What that does by isolating that piece is it gets them really good. Then, we can go back and put it back into the hole and their game is much better than it was before. Because with Jiu-Jitsu what happens is-- I'm sure you discovered if all you do is roll. If you just [teach a bunch of techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) and let the students roll, especially if its in an environment where its very competitive. Everybody's going to do what they are good at. And you will get good at the routs, but people with have holes. They'll have parts of their game that they don't like to go to, so they avoid them. I think one of our jobs as coaches, as Jiu-Jitsu coaches, is to make people go to those places so they develop skill, fundamental skill in all the different positions, because we don't want the first time they have to struggle out of that spot to be against somebody whose very good at that spot in a tournament or in other situations. **Sonny:** Yes, and it's yet making them go to those places that they are uncomfortable and don't like but in a fun environment where there is no pressure on failing. Is that? **Matt:** Exactly, where I am constantly saying every single time I'm teaching class or about to do a drill, "Failure is an essential part of the process. It's not just okay, it's mandatory. If you're not failing through the whole thing, you're still back at the introduction stage. You are probably not really acquiring any time." **Sonny:** Yes, and that was a huge thing for me. Recently, I had a chat with my friend Andy from School of Grappling and he pointed out that a lot of what coaches would often do is try and take their failures and say, "Hey, students, you don't have to fail. I did the failing for you. Here is what you just do instead." He said that's catastrophic. You have to let people fail for themselves and learn, and you are just there to guide. **Matt:** That's very insightful. One hundred percent true. We can try and save on time. Obviously, that's part of what our job is as a coach, but you can't short-circuit that process for them. You can't give people timing. **Sonny:** Yes. **Matt:** I can show them exactly what they need to do but you know you have to let them put in the work to be able to do it and that work requires failure. You can't fail for them. My failures don't give you timing, they give me timing. They don't give any body else timing. **Sonny:** Exactly, right. Yes, there's a lot to take in from that conversation for me, Mat. Its been really excellent. I guess, in summarizing, if I've got an idea now of your martial arts philosophy maybe or just your ideas about it. We're doing a physical activity that we're searching for the truth in a universal human experience of wrestling and fighting. We are looking to help other people find that truth and have fun while doing it. Is that? **Matt:** That's great. Yes, that sums it up pretty much, what we try and do at SBG. **Sonny:** Oh, that's beautiful. Matt, thank you so much. I'd love to have you on again and talk about some other of your thoughts, stoicism and critical thinking. **Matt:** Any time. **Sonny:** Awesome. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to go about doing it? **Matt:** Yes, for gym-related stuff, they can go to straightblastgym.com and a couple of years ago I started SBGU, which is my online university. I think we have close to a thousand different videos on there now, and I put up when I'm teaching, my classes go up there every week. Now that I haven't been teaching with the virus, I've been putting up classes of training with my wife. There are multiple clips that go up every week. So, people that are interested in our stuff, they can go on there. For more essays and writing and things like that, not necessarily always related to martial arts, they can check out [mattthornton.org](http://mattthornton.org), but [straightblastgym.com](http://straightblastgym.com) usually has the links for all that. **Sonny:** Awesome, I'll be getting in touch with Ben Power from SBG Sydney as well. **Matt:** Yes, he is very talented. Definitely probably worth having on the podcast and training with him, once all of this is over. **Sonny:** Definitely. Matt, thanks so much. Hope you have a good day and we can do this again in the future. **Matt:** Awesome, thank you very much. **Sonny:** Thanks mate. ![Matt Thornton BJJ Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_matt_thornton_promo_3-1024x1024.jpg "Matt Thornton BJJ Interview › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [A Brief History Of The Kimura Lock Technique](https://www.sonnybrown.net/a-brief-history-of-the-kimura-lock-technique/) **Published:** September 28, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![History Of The Kimura Lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/helio_kimura-1024x576.webp "Historical Photo Of Helio Gracie Applying The Kimura Lock › Sonny Brown")*History Of The Kimura: The following is a guest post written by Vlad Koulikov & Javier Palomo* Kimura ... If you’re into Jiu-Jitsu, grappling and MMA you might have heard that word once or twice. This article is part of the [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling History Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling-history-resources/) collection and the broader [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/) hub. For those who do not know, it’s an arm lock (or shoulder lock as some people consider it) named after the famous Japanese judoka (someone who practices Judo) Masahiko Kimura. It’s generally considered a bent arm lock as far as categorization goes, where the pressure builds up in the shoulder joint forcing a recipient to tap out and surrender. However, as you’ll see in some of the supplied examples, it’s the elbow or humerus that often breaks if an unfortunate victim decides not to submit or gives up too late. ## Why is it called The Kimura? ![Masahiko Kimura](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kimura_restored.webp "kimura_restored › Sonny Brown")General nomenclature bills the submission hold as the “Kimura” after an iconic match took place between one of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) founders, Helio Gracie and Mr Kimura himself. The mastery and skill of Mr Kimura had Brazilians name it after the man himself, although the Japanese name, Ude-Garami, already existed in Judo. Since Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is one of the most popular grappling arts on the planet, the hold is best known under that name. But the arm lock is not indigenous to BJJ and Judo only. The anatomy of the human arm implies that there are only a few ways you can bend or twist the limb to damage it, so naturally, the submission can be seen in many other submission fighting styles: Chin Na, Luta Livre, Sambo. ## Behold Catch As Catch Can Wrestling (CACC) *Catch Wrestler Billy Robinson Demonstrates A Standing Double Wrist Lock* The submission exists in that wrestling style as well. Moreover, it’s one of the fundamental holds in CACC, where it’s identified as the “double wrist lock” (DWL). The idea behind the Kimura and the DWL is identical, however, there are plenty of differences, most notably the use of a thumbless grip (so-called “monkey grip”) vs gripping with the thumb (“motorcycle grip” or “c clamp”). There are other subtle differences that vary, such as gripping nuances and application of rotation. Generally in BJJ, the submission hold in question is taught with a thumbless grip to deliver more pressure and avoid thumb locking yourself as the opponent tries to wrench his arm free. Where in CACC the hold is taught using the thumb while gripping. The alleged benefit of it is the firm control of the wrist and defence prevention. *Tony Cecchine Explains The Variation Between Using The Thumb & A Thumbless Grip* ## The "True" Kimura Grip ![The True Kimura Grip](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/true_kimura-225x300.webp "true_kimura › Sonny Brown")I’ve personally heard enough pros and cons for either style of gripping that I think there’s no formula that fits all. My philosophy is: if it works for **YOU** then use whatever grip. Ironically enough, as pictured here, Masahiko Kimura himself used the grip with the thumb on the opponent’s wrist and a thumbless grip on his own forearm. ## Additional KIMURA Grips Below are a few of the different gripping variations that can be used to establish control of the kimura and apply the pressure required to execute the submission. ### Knuckle Grip *Javier Palomo Demonstrating The Knuckle Grip Kimura* ### Power Grip *Satoshi Ishii Demonstrating The Power Grip Kimura* ### FBI Grip *Vlad Koulikov Demonstrating The FBI Grip Kimura* ## Additional KIMURA Finishes It can also be finished with one hand either by bending (chicken wing) or actually extending the arm. *Michael Chiesa Submits Carlos Condit At UFC 232 With a One-Armed Kimura* *Nick Diaz Submits Josh Neer At UFC 62 With A Kimura* ## The Reverse Kimura ![Budo Jake demonstrating the reverse Kimura grip](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/budo_jake_reverse_kimura-1.jpg "budo_jake_reverse_kimura-1 › Sonny Brown")Lastly, there is the so-called “Reverse Kimura”. The grip has been used a lot in Freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling mostly for throws. The reverse Kimura can be utilized in Jiu-Jitsu, too. For further information, Budo Jake also has an instructional about the technique. One technique utilising the reverse kimura grip is the "Zangief Roll". The technique is a combination of throw and submission made popular by The Ultimate Fighter competitor and BJJ black belt Jacen Flynn. Although the Kimura is usually finished from top side control or bottom guard, sometimes it’s also finished from top half guard. *Jacen Flynn performs a Zangief Roll at Gracie Worlds 2014 Black Belt Division* *Jacen Flynn performs another Zangief Roll using the Reverse Kimura Grip* ## The Kimura as a Position Not only is the Kimura an actual submission, but pretty versatile hold for many other jobs in grappling. One can sweep from one’s guard, use the hold to pass someone’s guard, apply a takedown, take the opponents back, advance in other positions and use it for general control. Most cops I’ve trained over the years swear by the effectiveness of the hold while arresting or apprehending a suspect. That tells you something about its usage for pure control! ### Kimura As A Takedown *Karo Parisyan Submits Dave Strasser with a Kimura From Sumi Gaeshi At UFC 44* ### Kimura As A Guard Pass *Beneil Dariush passes the guard of Drew Dober using a Kimura at UFC Fight Night 146*. ### Kimura To Take The Back *Goiti Yamauchi Uses the Kimura To Take The Back of Isao Kobayashi At Bellator 144.* Quite a few Kimura specialists have appeared in MMA and grappling. To name a few: [Kazushi Sakuraba](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=froLa1nHWYo "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=froLa1nHWYo"), David Avellan, Maui Maui, [Chris Brennan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-brennan-next-generation-mma-nogi-jiujitsu/ "Initiating No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu for the Next Generation of Grapplers With Chris Brennan"), Vagner Rocha and many others. All these mentioned athletes do have their own instructional material on Kimura, feel free to check them out. ## Notable Kimura Uses Here are a few final notable examples of Kimura use in high-level competitions and classic matches. *Mark Schultz uses a Double Wrist Lock to takedown his opponent *(and break the arm)** *on his way to winning Gold at the 1984 Olympic Games.* *Kazushi Sakuraba Submits Renzo Gracie With A Kimura.* *Fedor Uses a Kimura In Combat Sambo Competition.* **[Vlad Koulikov](https://www.instagram.com/sambo_fusion/ "https://www.instagram.com/sambo_fusion/") - Author.** - Master of Sport in Sambo - BJJ & Judo Black Belt - Owner of [Sambo Fusion](http://www.sambofusion.com) Listen to the podcast interview with [Vladislav Koulikov on The Sonny Brown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/vlad-koulikov-interview-sambo-fusion-grappling/ "Vlad Koulikov Interview on Sambo Fusion & Unity Over Division In Grappling"). **[Javier Palomo](https://www.instagram.com/thejav13/ "https://www.instagram.com/thejav13/") - Editor and Contributor.** - IBJJF No Gi World Champion - Combat Wrestling World Champion - Host of the [Grappler Union Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/grappler-union-podcast/id1156234913 "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/grappler-union-podcast/id1156234913") ![History Of The Kimura In Sambo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kimura_in_sambo-1024x576.webp "kimura_in_sambo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) **Published:** March 17, 2024 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Scott_Sievewright-1024x576.webp "Scott Sievewright › Sonny Brown")I talk to Scott Sievewright, who discusses his ecological approach to coaching martial arts. He emphasises the importance of live, unscripted sparring from day one to build skills, arguing that traditional techniques taught in isolation don't effectively transfer to real-life fighting. Sievewright believes his method produces better, more skilled fighters by developing movement repertoire and qualities through live, games-based play sparring. He highlights sparring's role in correcting errors and the importance of adaptability and self-organisation in training. The conversation covers footwork, external focus, situational sparring, distance and space in fighting, brain health, and transitioning from gym to amateur fighting. Sievewright also discusses prioritising athlete health and safety, challenging headgear use in training, and emphasising the need for fighters to handle pressure and compete before amateur fights. He stresses individuality in training, continuous experimentation, and adaptation in an ecological approach to coaching martial arts. ## Listen to Scott Sievewright ### YouTube ## Topics #### The Importance of Live, Unscripted Training One of the main themes discussed in the podcast episode is the importance of live, unscripted [training in martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/). Scott Sievewright highlights the limitations of traditional methods that focus on step-by-step instructions and detailed descriptions of movements. He argues that these methods do not adequately prepare students for real-life combat situations. Sievewright explains that students are exposed to a more realistic and dynamic training environment by incorporating live, unscripted training from the beginning. This approach allows them to develop the ability to adapt and react in real time, which is crucial in martial arts. He states, "These ten minutes of each class add up. And over the course of weeks and months, I'm going to have hours, or my students are going to have hours and hours of more live, unscripted work than sit and listen to me blabbering blather." This approach has significant implications. By prioritizing live training, students are better equipped to handle the unpredictability and intensity of real combat situations. This can lead to improved [performance outcomes and a more well-rounded skill](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) set. #### Constraints and Autonomy in MMA Training Another important aspect of the ecological approach to martial arts training is the use of constraints and autonomy. Sievewright explains that he provides his students with a lot of room for autonomy and exploration, allowing them to find what works best for them individually. He states, "I give them a tremendous amount of opportunity to come in and try and scratch their own itch because what works for Jim probably doesn't interest Bob. Sally's doing something else." By giving students the freedom to explore and experiment, Sievewright believes they can develop their own unique style and find what works best for them. This individualized approach is in contrast to traditional methods that often focus on a one-size-fits-all approach. Additionally, Sievewright emphasizes the importance of constraints in training. He explains that constraints can be used to nudge students into different spaces and challenge them to develop specific skills or strategies. By turning up the volume on certain tactics or strategies, students can focus on honing specific areas of their game. The combination of autonomy and constraints in training allows for a more personalized and effective learning experience. Students are able to take ownership of their training and develop skills that are tailored to their individual strengths and preferences. #### The Future of Martial Arts Training The ecological approach to martial arts training can potentially revolutionise how martial arts are taught and practiced. By prioritizing live, unscripted training and incorporating constraints and autonomy, students can develop a more well-rounded skill set and better adapt to real combat situations. This approach challenges traditional methods that rely heavily on step-by-step [instructions and rigid techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/). Instead, it encourages students to explore and experiment, finding what works best for them individually. The implications of this approach extend beyond the training room. Students are better prepared to navigate the complexities and challenges of real-life combat situations by emphasising the importance of individuality and autonomy. This can lead to improved performance outcomes and a more sustainable and effective approach to martial arts training. In conclusion, the ecological approach to martial arts training offers a fresh perspective on skill development. Students can [develop a more well-rounded skill](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/) set by prioritizing live, unscripted training and incorporating constraints and autonomy and better adapt to real combat situations. This approach challenges traditional methods and opens up new possibilities for the future of martial arts training. ## Resources Continue with the [Ecological Dynamics & CLA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) guide or browse [MMA Analysis & Training Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mma-analysis-training-resources/). #### Quotes > *I think it's wonderful. And anyone who wants to be on our fight team has to show that they can routinely deal with that pressure of having people watching them, of getting in and being able to compete in pankration.* > > - Scott Sievewright #### Links - [Primal MMA & Fitness Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/primal_mke/) - [Primal MMA & Fitness Website](https://www.primalmke.com/) - [Primal MMA Coaching Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-primal-mma-coaching-podcast/id1522162314 "Primal MMA Coaching Podcast") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** brain health in sports, coaching philosophy, martial arts, MMA training, Muay Thai, skill development, sparring techniques, traditional martial arts --- ### [Greg Souders On Teaching Jiu-Jitsu Without Teaching Techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** December 9, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Greg Souders](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/greg_souders_tn_wide-1024x576.jpg "greg_souders_tn_wide › Sonny Brown")I talk to Greg Souders, a Jiu-Jitsu black belt and academy owner who has found success through the ecological approach to skill development - a method backed by research confirming its efficacy in motor learning. Rather than relying on memorized techniques alone, Greg uses this innovative technique to empower his students' growth within their practice. He explains that this approach is based on constraints-led learning, which focuses on the learner's environment and how it can facilitate learning. He emphasizes the importance of using this approach in a way that is effective for both beginners and advanced students. ## Listen To Greg Souders ### YouTube ### Topics #### How Greg Souders Teaches Guard Passing "So typically, we start like this. So let's say I'm teaching guard passing to a brand new person. Typically I like to link a pin and a pass together because they're the same thing. So we know the top player's job is always the same. It's to stay on top, hold the partner down, pass the legs, and pin the body to the mat. That's the big game they're trying to do at the top player. So we usually start the new player in the chest-to-chest half-guard. This is when the top player's chest-to-chest is in half guard position where the bottom player has two legs wrapped around the top player's one. And the top layer has the job of freeing their knee. They must get their leg out of that hold, but they must do it while holding the chest down." "So what I give them is I say, okay, guys, you're going to stay on top and hold your partner down, and I want you to pry your leg free. I want you to get this leg out of the situation. You win the game. If you can get your knee to either side of the body, I will demonstrate what that looks like. You win the game if you get your knee out to the mounted side. You win the game if you get your knee out to the side control side. And so they start self-organizing around the tasks of staying on top, holding their partner down and freeing the trapped knee. And if you were to take a snapshot, for example, of when that knee came across the centre line into side control, it would look like a knee cut. But it wasn't the knee cut that was learned. It was the procedure of holding somebody down and freeing a trapped leg that was learned. And that's actually what's happening. Calling it a knee cut is to miss the forest because the trees are in the way. We have to understand the procedure that's underneath it." #### Information from the Coach vs The Environment "So there's usable information and information that's not usable. And the information we receive is not from our coach; it's from the environment. So the body tells us how to interact with the body, and we have to experience it in real time. So if we know the invariant properties of destabilizing the body have to do with how the attacking player attaches to and manipulates the secondary leg and how they attach to and manipulate the hips, then we give that task, and we let the person organize around that task. So we have them move their partner around and try to get that leg or the hips, and the process will emerge on its own." "So there's no explanation necessary. You don't give the student any extra information they can't utilize. So you hear it all the time. Every student complains, oh, my coach talks too much. They give me 37 steps to this move, and I don't remember any of them. Anyway, it just seems if I sweep out the other leg, they fall easier. Well, you're right. That's exactly why you should stop listening to your coach and kick out that secondary leg because that's all that matters." #### Addressing Novelty Using The Ecological Approach "So if you have a stable [system or our current grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-systems-theory-chaos/) culture and something novels introduced into that system, it's going to perturb it big time. It's going to create a ripple. So first, if you've never seen the pattern and it has some devastating effect to it, it's going to work. And then people want to win. So they're going to copy what works and what they're going to do is they're going to go nuts with it. The video is going to spread online; people are going to start copying the pattern. But I think the problem is that people never learn what's behind the pattern; they only learn the pattern itself. This would be equivalent to learning how to cook from a cookbook, but never understanding the relationship between acid, oil and salt as it relates to heat and protein." "So if you understand the relationship of how things are added and create the specific effect, you can reorient that novelty into your whole game or change something about or even grasp it more deeply. But if you're copying the cookbook or the procedure, you never get access to that move. That move and why it works. You're just replicating something you don't understand. So anyway, when we see that, we look at what it is. It has the same base structure if we're talking about any lock on an arm or a leg." "You get as close to the base joint to immobilize the hips as firmly as possible. We're going to put the limb into a state of extension to hyperextend it over its middle joint, or we're going to bend that limb, and we're going to twist it to cause spiralling breaking forces on the middle joint. And so it doesn't matter what the orientation is; we know the effect. So it becomes easy to copy if you know the base function. So anyway, we like novel stuff. Novelty is great, but we're not fooled by it, either." ### Timestamps 0:00:00 The Sonny Brown Breakdown: Episode 61 - Greg Souders 0:02:14 The Benefits of an Ecological Approach to Jiu-Jitsu Training 0:07:05 The Importance of Task Analysis in V Jiu Jitsu 0:09:59 The Benefits of Not Showing a Knee Cut in BJJ 0:12:12 The Importance of Teaching the Effect, Not the Process 0:14:12 The Constraints-Led Approach to Jiu-Jitsu Training 0:17:42 The Ecological Approach to Jujitsu 0:22:06 The Role of Technique Videos in BJJ Training 0:29:26 How to Solve a Problem in BJJ Training 0:34:07 Teaching the Guillotine Choke to White Belts 0:38:23 The Benefits of Intention-Based Learning in Jiu Jitsu 0:41:59 The Different Types of Grip Fighting in Jiu Jitsu 0:53:14 The Benefits of an Emergent Learning Process in Jiu Jitsu 0:57:59 The Importance of Implicit Learning in Jiu Jitsu 1:00:44 The Benefits of a Task-Based Approach to Jiujitsu Training 1:06:20 The Success of Gordon Ryan: A Discussion 1:08:05 The Impact of John Danaher's Coaching Methods on the Jiujitsu Community 1:16:26 The Benefits of Constraints in Jiu-Jitsu Training 1:18:23 The Benefits of an Ecological Approach to Jiujitsu 1:23:35 The Importance of Information in Perception-Action Coupling ### Greg Souder Resources For the wider coaching context, see [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) and the [Martial Arts Skill Acquisition Reading List](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-skill-acquisition-reading-list/). #### Quotes > It's the constraint of the human eye as it interacting with the environment. It teaches a person how to stand. We just have to find out what they are. What are we using to self organize? And time is a big one. > > - Greg Souders #### Links - [Greg Souders Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/gdsouders/ "Greg Souders Instagram") - [Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website](https://www.standardjiujitsu.com/ "Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website") - [Lachlan Giles Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/ "Lachlan Giles On The Reverse Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu & BJJ Skill Acquisition") - [Perception & Action Podcast](https://perceptionaction.com/ "Perception & Action Podcast") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Systematic Coaching & Team Building with Luke Martin](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systematic-coaching-team-building-with-luke-martin/) **Published:** March 9, 2025 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Luke Martin - Sydney West Online](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_067_tn_widescreen-1024x576.jpg "luke_martin_067_tn_widescreen › Sonny Brown")I talk to Luke Martin from Sydney West Martial Arts, Luke has been on the podcast several times before, and this marks ten years since he began his journey of bringing the world-class Danaher grappling system to his gym in Penrith. We discuss his team's recent participation in the ADCC World Championships, how his coaching philosophy has evolved over the decade, and his new online training platform Sydney West Online which shares his systematic approach to teaching jiu-jitsu. We also explore his thoughts on the ecological approach to coaching, his process for developing high-level athletes, and how he's now attracting international talent to train at his academy. ## Listen ## YouTube ## Topics #### ADCC Experience Luke discusses taking three athletes to the recent ADCC World Championships, which he describes as "the biggest event in history." He explains how his gym had multiple athletes qualify through trials, with Jeremy receiving a late invite. Luke emphasises how proud he is of his team, noting that having three athletes from a single Australian gym at this prestigious event is a significant achievement. #### Training Methodology Luke details his training methodology, explaining that ADCC remains their primary focus year-round, with adjustments in intensity and technique selection as competitions approach. Unlike many coaches who compartmentalise Jiu-Jitsu instruction into weekly blocks (e.g., a week of guard passing, then a week of submissions), Luke prefers teaching different aspects of Jiu-Jitsu daily to ensure all skills are covered regularly without any area going "cold" for too long. #### Coaching Philosophy A significant portion of the conversation covers Luke's evolution as a coach. He describes how he initially lacked the technical knowledge to achieve his goal of building Australia's best Jiu-Jitsu team. This led him to seek out John Danaher's instruction, first through in-person training at Renzo Gracie's academy in New York in 2017, then through weekly [online private lessons with Jason Rau](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/ "Luke Martin On Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System") (one of Danaher's students). Luke emphasises that effective coaching requires both technical knowledge and the ability to impart that knowledge effectively to students. He believes this combination is rare, which explains why there aren't many coaches consistently producing high-level athletes "from scratch." #### Team Building Luke discusses how he's built a strong team culture at Sydney West. He rejects the traditional hierarchical approach of many martial arts academies, instead fostering an environment where respect is earned rather than demanded. This has created a genuine team dynamic where athletes support each other, rather than a "cult-like" loyalty to a gym or coach. #### Sydney West Online Luke introduces his new online coaching platform, Sydney West Online, which launched a week before the interview. He explains that unlike [instructionals that simply demonstrate techniques,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) his platform shares the complete training system that has produced results for his team. It includes all-levels classes, advanced classes, daily Q&A sessions, and rolling footage of his top athletes. #### The "Ecological Approach" Debate When prompted by Sonny, Luke shares his critical views on the "ecological approach" to teaching Jiu-Jitsu, which emphasises guided discovery through games rather than direct instruction. Luke argues that while this approach might benefit advanced practitioners, it lacks proven results compared to more structured teaching methods. He prefers to stick with approaches that have demonstrated success at the highest levels. ## Resources Explore more conversations in [Best Martial Arts Coaching Podcasts & Interviews](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching-podcasts-interviews/), or use the [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/) hub. #### Quotes > "That's something I picked up from Danaher a few years ago. I recognized that. Wait a sec. He's not programming a week at a time. He's doing day by day." > "Once you get to a point of mastery, you can really start to elongate. The way you take on information and practice information." > "I have to say that condensing everything down into the direction that I'm speaking about now is giving me, I think, generally better results than my peers around me at a faster rate." #### Links - [Sydney West Online](https://www.sydneywestonline.com/) - [Luke Martin Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/aussieleglockluke/) - [Sydney West Martial Arts YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@SydneyWestMartialArtsPenrith) ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Mythology of Play With Michael Phillip](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) **Published:** March 26, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Mythology of Play in Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_068_header-1024x576.jpg "The Mythology of Play in Jiu-Jitsu › Sonny Brown")I talk to Michael Phillip, host of the long-running philosophy and esoterica podcast [Third Eye Drops](https://thirdeyedrops.com), where he conducts what he calls "mind melds" with authors, musicians, thinkers, and mystics on topics ranging from Jungian psychology and mythology to consciousness, technology, and the nature of reality. Michael also brings a personal martial arts background, which makes him an unusually thoughtful conversation partner on the deeper dimensions of combat sports. In this episode, we explore the ancient and mythological roots of grappling and play, the Hermetic trickster archetype as a lens for understanding martial arts, how motor learning and [games-based coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kabir_bath.jpg "Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults") connect to ideas of structure and freedom, and what it really means to face loss in competition and in life. ### Listen to Michael Phillip ### YouTube ## TOPICS COVERED #### The Nature of Play and Skill Acquisition There is a version of play available to everyone from the very beginning: the casual, exploratory fumbling of someone who has no idea what they are doing. But there is a deeper form of play that is unlocked only through serious investment in a skill, and that distinction matters enormously for how we think about learning and mastery. Neuroscience offers a useful frame here. In a genuine flow state, the brain enters a condition called **transient hypofrontality**, where the self-monitoring, self-conscious prefrontal regions temporarily quiet down. What remains is something egoless, fully present, and genuinely spontaneous. The paradox is that this state cannot be willed into existence. It only becomes accessible once enough structure and repetition have been absorbed into the body that conscious thinking is no longer required. You have to earn your way into freedom. Grappling seems particularly well-suited to producing this experience. The push and pull of two bodies against one another is one of the oldest physical languages in existence, older than culture and probably older than the human species itself. Animals play-wrestle. Children play-wrestle. The instinct is so deeply embedded that it requires almost no introduction. That evolutionary depth may be exactly why jiu-jitsu, in particular, carries a quality that practitioners often struggle to articulate but immediately recognise: it feels like something more than sport. It feels like play in the truest, most ancient sense of the word. #### The Hermetic Trickster and the Rhythm of Structure vs. Play Michael introduces one of his favourite myths, the story of baby Hermes stealing Apollo's sacred cattle, as a perfect allegory for how innovation actually happens: not through polite incremental improvement, but through transgression. > "It's a story about how play and completely challenging and actually insulting the status quo actually leads to innovation. Eventually, the thing that challenged it and came from the outside becomes a part of the new establishment." We map this directly onto the history of martial arts. MMA stripped away the cultural baggage that wasn't doing anything useful in traditional styles, keeping what worked. Within jiu-jitsu itself, leg locks were once considered taboo, practically a gentleman's agreement not to rip someone's ACL, yet they became undeniable once practitioners committed to developing them seriously. I share a compelling origin story here: an early rivalry between the Gracie school and the Fadda school, in which the Gracies reportedly suffered significant losses via foot locks, may have seeded the cultural disdain that lasted for decades. The Hermetic trickster energy came in, overturned the structure, and then became the new structure. And then, inevitably, the cycle begins again. Michael and I both note this rhythm of transgression, absorption, new orthodoxy, and fresh transgression seems to be a permanent feature of any living martial art. The people who were revolutionary ten or fifteen years ago are now the old guard, their once-radical games considered passé by the next generation. #### Hermes Trismegistus, Thoth, and the Archetype of Information Michael takes us deep down a rabbit hole: the figure of **Hermes Trismegistus**, the legendary sage of ancient Egypt associated with the Hermetic texts, the Emerald Tablet, and the phrase *"as above, so below*." He traces the threads of syncretism that link the Greek trickster Hermes to the Egyptian god Thoth, patron of scribes, language, and writing, and then to this third, even more mysterious composite figure. What Michael finds remarkable is how durable the archetype is. Thoth invents language. Hermes is the god of communication, speed, boundaries, and novelty. Hermes Trismegistus downloads the architecture of the cosmos. The Jungian psychologist James Hillman argued we are living in an **age of Hermes**, defined by our obsession with information, connectivity, and the rapid exchange of ideas. > "Even you could say grappling is an exchange of information. It's a competition of information." I point out that hieroglyphic depictions of wrestling have been found in Egyptian tombs, complete with holds we still recognise today, drawing a direct line between this ancient information-obsessed culture and the grappling arts. Michael and I both find it striking that the internet-driven explosion in jiu-jitsu technique over the last five to ten years, through instructionals, YouTube, and global sharing of knowledge, is, in this light, a perfectly Hermetic phenomenon. The art accelerates precisely because information flows faster. #### Games-Based Learning and Constraint-Led Coaching We dig into what modern motor learning research suggests about how skills are actually acquired. The traditional model of instruction, drilling, and free rolling works, but I explain that there is a growing body of evidence and coaching philosophy suggesting that **play within constraints** can produce faster, deeper, and more intuitive learning outcomes. Rather than simply telling a student what to do, the coach designs a game with sufficiently tight parameters so the student discovers the intended technique on their own. I describe it as similar to the haiku form: the restriction does not prevent creativity, it provokes it. > "You give them such guidelines to the game that you're confident they will discover the intended outcome on their own. So it's that interplay between structure and play that's really what they're trying to develop." Michael draws an apt analogy from video games: a completely open-world game with no narrative direction becomes aimless. The best games, like the best lessons, find the right amount of open-endedness. Too much freedom produces chaos; too much structure produces rote imitation. The coach's art is finding the constraint that opens the door. ### Resources Continue with the [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/) hub, the [Ecological Dynamics & CLA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) guide, and the [Martial Arts Skill Acquisition Reading List](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-skill-acquisition-reading-list/). ### Quotes > "Play proceeds everything, but you don't really fully play until you've mastered to an extent. And then that's where it gets really interesting." – Michael Phillip > "Grappling is an exchange of information. It's a competition of information." – Michael Phillip > "The Hermetic trickster energy defies the establishment, then becomes a part of the establishment, and then it happens all over again, over and over, in so many different ways." – Michael Phillip > "To get the thing you want, you have to eat the shit you don't want over and over and over again until you kind of get there." – Michael Phillip > "Part of play is losing, and understanding how to cope with loss projects itself forward into every other part of your life." – Michael Phillip ### Links - [Third Eye Drops Podcast](https://thirdeyedrops.com) - [Third Eye Drops on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/thirdeyedrops) - [Michael Phillip Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/third_eye_drops/) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to rate, subscribe and share the podcast. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** archetypes, flow state, Hermes, innovation, learning, mastery, myth, play --- ### [A Study of Pulling Guard in MMA for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Fighters](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) **Published:** January 19, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** In this study, I look at pulling guard in MMA as an alternative way of getting the fight onto the ground. It sits at the intersection of [MMA strategy](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/) and [Jiu-Jitsu and grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/), where positional choices change once strikes and judging are involved. It's a rarely utilised strategy but has been successful for a small set of fighters who have excellent guards and have made it their speciality. The guard is technically an inferior position in fighting as you are on your back and trapped between the mat and the weight of your opponent on top of you while they can use the assistance of gravity to implement control and throw strikes. However, the UFC was built on Royce Gracie's success from the guard and the impressive look of a small man submitting larger opponents off his back and Brazilian jiu-jitsu as a whole as built a reputation around taking this inferior position and with practice study and techniques turning into a spot where they have a competitive advantage and can finish fights. So in competition Brazilian jiu-jitsu players will often favour this position on their opponents to the point where double guard pulls where both competitors jump to pull guard at the same time was a problem, and a rule had to be developed to prevent both competitors from stalling from there. However, in mixed martial arts eventually, fighters got better at defending submissions from the guard and when you add that strikes are allowed the guard is not an excellent position to be in for a lot of sensible reasons. Not the least being that the time spent on your back will typically be seen as you losing the fight on the judges scorecards. ## The Third Option: Pull Guard So what situation would you need in MMA where pulling guard would make sense. Well, Eddie Bravo has a great video on this where he explains pulling guard is the third option. The basic concept is option number one in a fight is to beat your opponent standing with strikes and option two if you can't win the battle there is to wrestle your opponent to the ground and score a takedown. The problem that arises is if your opponent has better striking than you and better wrestling so you cannot outstrike them and you cannot score a takedown. Well, that is where pulling guard becomes the third option. While I might suggest that clinching or working against the fence might be other options the point still stands that the guard can provide an avenue to victory that is often neglected. Now several fighters have shown the guard pulls effectiveness throughout the years, and a handful has actively sought this position in MMA. These are fighters who do have excellent attacking guards and are extremely dangerous when they're in that position so for it to be considered a good strategy you do need to have the type of guard that the opponent would actively avoid if given a choice as they know they'd be in danger. So in this breakdown, I'll look at the techniques that martial artists have used to pull guard and get the fight to the mat successfully. ### Pulling Half Guard IN MMA Half guard is statistically the most common position that sweeps are successful from in MMA so pulling half guard is a great option if you have a strong sweep game to get on top and begin to throw grounded strikes or start working for a submission. Now if you want to pull guard, you will still have to close the distance on your opponent. Although sometimes guard pulls will be attempted by simply flopping onto your back, this is an awful tactic that leaves the decision to play guard as a choice for your opponent to make and looks terrible if they decide not to. If your goal is to take your opponent down, then you'll still need to be taking wrestling shots that may be getting sprawled on, and this is where we will begin to work one of the significant positions to execute a successful guard pull. This method still requires you to shoot in deep for a single or double leg shot and getting to your opponent's hips and thighs. So consider this the **guard pulling paradox**, where one of the best ways to pull guard is going to require that you still have good setups and wrestling shots. Once in on your opponent's hips, you'll want to have your hands around their waist or even better maybe locked around a single leg. The critical detail here is to get your outside leg to come round and hook behind one of the opponent's calves which then allows some control over the opponent's base to prevent them from standing back up and backing out. Once that outside leg has been hooked in place, then the inside leg can shift between the opponent's legs to lock off a half guard position properly. Alternatively, the outside leg can be brought around the opponent's back to control their posture while the inside legs knee is carried across the opponent's hips. From there you can look to work one of the many half guard sweeps to get on top of your opponent and into a dominant top position or you could proceed to full guard and begin working for a submission. ### Pulling Guard IN MMA - Collar Tie The other majority of guard pulls are going to come from the standing upper-body clinch position and performed with a few different gripping options with the first we'll look at is the collar tie. Now, this still does require striking or feinting on your opponent to close the distance and get into the clinch and then securing an over tie a single collar tie or full Thai head control before jumping to pull guard. These grips give control over the opponent's head and are used to assist in executing the critical element of the standing guard pull which is breaking the opponent's posture. With proper control over the opponent's head and neck, snapping them forward and adding your entire body weight for them to carry will help bring the fight to the mat. From these collar tie positions when the guard hits the mat, the collar tie can then remain on the back of the head to continue to control the opponent's posture while the other hand can move to bicep or wrist control to start attacking a submission. ### Pulling Guard IN MMA - Overhook Another grip when in the upper body clinch is the over hook. This is good for guard pulls and setup by securing an over hook with one arm and having the other hand either controlling the opponent's wrist or in a collar tie position. From there you can begin to break the opponent's posture by getting them to walk forward with a Whizzer so that they become off-balance and when the guard jump is made the additional bodyweight will bend them at the hips and drag the opponent forward and down to the mat. Once hitting the mat that over hook gives a strong trapping guard that continues to control the posture of the opponent limiting their ability to land significant strikes and this position may be one of the best guards in MMA to begin to work for a triangle choke or an armbar. ### Flying Triangle Guard Pull Another guard pulling attack that works off the over hooks is to go for a flying triangle. With this move once clinched up with an over hook on one arm and wrist control on the opposite arm of your opponent, you jump in to pull guard while at the same time you push the opponent's arm out of the guard on the side you have wrist control on so that you land in a fully locked triangle choke submission that you can begin to work on finishing immediately. Alternatively, if your Shinya Aoki you can pull off an extremely rare flying Omoplata that you use to sweep the opponent and land in top position. ### Pulling Guard IN MMA - Double Underhooks Another option for the guard pull can also be performed from the double under hooks in the clinch. However, this would be my least preferred position to pull guard from, for starters if you do manage to get the double underhooks this is the best position to still work for a takedown so you may not want to give that up too quickly, but secondly, if you do pull guard with double under hooks when you hit the mat it is going to be the most challenging position to control the opponent's posture as both their hands are free to cross face and throw down significant strikes. It can also be performed from a wrestling shot that is sprawled on, but the problem with being open to strikes remain as opposed to going to a half guard position where you are angled off to the side and working for a sweep. Alternatively pulling a butterfly guard with double underhooks may be the best position to work from with a butterfly sweep but if you can transition your grips quickly to gain control of the opponent's posture, then this is still an option that has been used successfully many times by some of the fighters we've looked at. ## The Jumping Guard Pull A rarer option is to jump to the guard position from out of striking range or with only the slightest of contact being made on the hands of the opponent's. Aoki and Imanari have done where they'll run directly towards their opponent and jump at them relying solely on the momentum of the jump to break the posture of the opponent. This is pretty risky though, and you even run the chance of knocking yourself out as the back of your head slams down onto the mat but has been something that's shown to work by these two fighters. ## Throwing Kicks, Imanari Rolls & Leglocks Throwing big kicks and guard pulling goes hand in hand, see another advantage of having a good guard is that it does open up more striking opportunities when standing as you can have the confidence to strike without being too scared of ending up on your back. This is especially true with kicks as you do not have a fear of your kick being caught and you being taken down as you know you can confidently attack or sweep from there. So with that belief, a common theme with fighters who have strong guards is that they will throw high kicks and low kicks with almost reckless abandon. Now a lot of the guard pulls in this study have been from Imanari, he might be most known for his Imanari Roll into a leg entanglement but should also be noted that many attempts at the Imanari roll often resulted in guard position which was just as desirable for him and could be seen as another option for pulling guard. Moreover, there's also a big crossover with the fighters pulling guard and attacking for leg locks. In the process of working to guard the opportunity for leg locks will be available and dropping into any of the [leg locking positions in an MMA fight](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-in-mma-meta/ "Robert Degle on Leg Locks in MMA & Elegant Leg Entanglements for Vale Tudo") could be considered a guard pull. This is an exciting topic that is worthy of individual study but be aware that leg locks and guard pulling are strongly connected. ## Should You Pull Guard In MMA? Now that rounds up this look at some of the various methods that have been used to implement this often neglected strategy, now while it is still recommended that fighters always work on their striking skills and [wrestling skills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-mindset-abstract-thinking-wrestling/ "Brian Ebersole on Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling") to get them as technical as they possibly can. This is something to keep in mind if you have a dangerous guard and find yourself in a situation where you might need to use it. That indicates that you've spent time sharpening your guard, so you're ready to sweep or submit your opponent as soon as it hits the mat. [Sonny Brown ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/ "About") #### References Bravo, E. (2010). Mastering The System 10: Pulling Guard in MMA. Retrieved from <https://youtu.be/IGkd6mlukoA> Gold, B. (2018). Why is "Pulling Guard" mocked in the BJJ community?. Retrieved from <https://bjjproblems.com/blogs/bjj-problems/why-is-pulling-guard-mocked-in-bjj> Grant, T. (2016). The Art & Science Of Pulling Guard In Jiu-Jitsu — A Complete Guide. Retrieved from <https://www.flograppling.com/articles/5049225-the-art-science-of-pulling-guard-in-jiu-jitsu-a-complete-guide> Kesting, S. (2011). Pulling Guard in MMA - Grapplearts. Retrieved from <https://www.grapplearts.com/pulling-guard-in-mma/> Why Pulling Guard is Killing BJJ. (2014). Retrieved from <https://pennerlive.wordpress.com/2014/03/22/why-pulling-guard-is-killing-bjj/> Wilcox, N. (2010). Judo Chop: Paul Sass Gives a Clinic in Pulling Guard at UFC 120. Retrieved from <https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/11/1/1759748/judo-chop-paul-sass-gives-a-clinic-in-pulling-guard-at-ufc-120> Zahabi, F. (2015). Pulling Web Guard Part 1 - Firas Zahabi - Guard Pulling 2.0 Series. Retrieved from <https://youtu.be/K2SvF6kXNGk> ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Mastering the Art of Flow Rolling for Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/) **Published:** September 10, 2023 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Excerpt:** Flow rolling is an essential training technique for grapplers that focuses on fluid transitions and technique chaining. It’s not about winning but improving movement, reactions, and awareness. **Content:** ![Mastering the Art of Flow Rolling for Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_art_of_flow_rolling-1024x576.jpg "The Art of Flow Rolling › Sonny Brown")Flow rolling is an important training method for grapplers that involves moving smoothly between techniques and positions in a cooperative manner. The goal is to be playful and experiment, not to dominate your partner. Flow rolling improves movement, reactions, transitions, and awareness. It's about exploring and chaining techniques together fluidly, not “winning”. When getting started with flow rolling, it's important to keep things relaxed and controlled. Go at a pace where you can think and respond thoughtfully. The intensity should not be so high that you need to catch your breath. Give your partner time to work their escapes and counters. Take turns in the “driver’s seat” going through moves. Play and have fun discovering new movements and sequences. ## Rules of Flow Rolling There are a few key rules to follow when flow rolling: - Relaxed pace where you can respond thoughtfully - Give and take opportunities to work on moves - Lose and get caught occasionally - Avoid using strength or speed - Prioritize positions over submissions - Allow partners time to escape and counter - Be playful and willing to experiment Following these rules keeps flow rolling productive and enjoyable for both partners. The cooperative nature allows more exploration of techniques in a lower-risk setting. ### Benefits of Flow Rolling Dedicated flow rolling sessions provide many benefits for grapplers: - Improves reactions, timing, and transitions - Develops the ability to chain techniques together - Promotes relaxation, rhythm, and flow - Allows experimentation in lower pressure setting - Builds awareness, vision, and feel for positions - Provides an opportunity for large technical repetitions - A fun way to warm up and develop skills Flow rolling frequently will quickly improve your understanding of grappling as a whole. The constant motion forces you to work on connecting techniques smoothly. ### Cultivating Flow Rolling Skills It takes time and effort to become skilled at flowing smoothly. Be patient with yourself and your partners. Here are some tips for progressing: - Start very slow and controlled - Focus on clean technical movement - Avoid using strength to force things - Keep a relaxed grip and body - Concentrate on sensing the opponent's movement - Work on making small adjustments and reactions - Increase pace gradually as skills improve - Troubleshoot issues as they arise Flow rolling well requires developing key attributes like relaxation, rhythm, vision, and reactive speed. Allow time for abilities to develop. Address poor habits immediately. Flowing skills will transfer directly to live grappling. ![Using Flow Rolling Drills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_art_of_flow_rolling_2-1024x576.jpg "the_art_of_flow_rolling_2 › Sonny Brown")## Using Flow Drills Specific flow drills can also help ingrain skills. For example, start standing and have one partner work takedowns while the other defends and then reverses. Or start from the knees passing guard back and forth. Position sparring starting from common spots like side control or turtle can be useful as well. Coaches can provide a particular skill or sequence to focus on. Or allow students to freely flow, providing individual tips as needed. Structured flow drills let you safely repeat challenging techniques under pressure. The constant movement pattern grooves proper reactions. ### Flow Drill Examples Here are some useful flow drill ideas: - Practice chaining takedowns together - Work on linking passing to submissions - Float between turtle reversals - Chain single leg shots to finishes - Practice guard retention to sweeps - Flow between front headlock controls - Move between leg entanglements - Link half guard sweeps together Flow drills build connections between the techniques you know. You will begin to see sequences and openings you missed previously. This allows you to grapple more reactively and intuitively. ### Optimizing Flow Drills To get the most out of flow drills: - Use sparring intensity but lower speed - Focus on proper positioning and leverage - Work with partners of similar skill level - Provide individual coaching and tips as needed - Keep sessions short to maintain focus - Use repetition to ingrain reactions - Increase complexity slowly over time - Ensure proper space and equipment With well-designed flow drills and engaged training partners, [skills can develop](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/) rapidly. Troubleshoot any bad habits or deteriorations into spazzing as soon as they appear. Keep things controlled and technical. ![Developing a Flow Rolling Mindset](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_art_of_flow_rolling_3-1024x576.jpg "the_art_of_flow_rolling_3 › Sonny Brown")## Developing a Flow Mindset Beyond just incorporating flow rolling into training, working towards a flow mindset can be extremely beneficial. Strive to relax into the smooth rhythm and motion of flow. Don’t overthink or force techniques. React to what your partner provides. Allow submissions to happen naturally. Pay close attention to angles, timing, and leverage. Feel how your and your partner’s bodies move together. Sense openings and opportunities as they arise. Chain techniques fluidly without hesitation or stalling. Embrace the transitionary process rather than just the end goal. ### Traits of Flow State Cultivating a flow rolling mindset involves developing the following traits: - Relaxed and responsive - Playful and exploratory - Focused on motion and transition - Not attached to outcomes - Attentive and sensing - Patient and unhurried - Willing to experiment - Trusting intuition Make an effort to embrace these traits during flow training. Enjoy the process and discovery. With time, flowing intuition will increasingly permeate live grappling. ### Reaching Flow State Here are some tips for achieving flow state: - Deep steady breathing - Clear your mind - Loosen your grip and limbs - Relax your face and jaws - Scan your body for tension - Stay focused on sensations - Don't think, just react naturally - Embrace improvisation - Feel the rhythm and groove Getting into flow is about letting go of conscious control and trusting your body. Eliminate distractions and be fully present. Lighten your movement and go with the momentum. ![Incorporating Flow Rolling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_art_of_flow_rolling_4-1024x576.jpg "the_art_of_flow_rolling_4 › Sonny Brown")## Incorporating Flow Rolling To get the full benefits of flow training, devote specific time to unstructured flow rolling consistently. Warmups, cooldowns, and open mats are great opportunities. Shorter structured flow drills can complement normal technical training. Avoid viewing flow as simply moving wildly and randomly. There should be purpose and progression underlying the motion. Start implementing flow rolling step-by-step. Troubleshoot issues like flopping, tightness, and stagnation. Flowing well requires relaxation, feel, and vision. ### Tips for Productive Flow Rolling Here are some tips to ensure productive flow sessions: - Clearly communicate rules and intentions beforehand - Use with partners of relatively equal skill - Gradually increase pace and intensity over time - Provide guidance if things deteriorate into spazzing - Ensure proper space and environment - Focus on clean technique, not unrealistic scrambles - Encourage experimentation and creativity - Keep sessions short initially With good partners and habits, flow training can greatly accelerate learning. Flow often highlights weaknesses and areas for improvement. Address these, then return to flowing. Consistent flow practice will produce noticeable grappling improvements. ### Integrating Flow Rolling To integrate flow rolling: - Schedule dedicated flow sessions weekly - Use flow drills to reinforce class techniques - Include flow rounds during open mats - Warm-up and cool down with flowing - View flow as developmental, not just fun - Match intensity and complexity to skills - Provide oversight to ensure productivity - Use flow to work on weaknesses Make flowing a consistent part of training cycles. Monitor progress and make adjustments as needed. Flowing skills will transfer to live grappling over time. ## Related Jiu-Jitsu Learning Resources Flow rolling is one part of a broader approach to developing adaptable grappling skill. For more on training design and learning, explore [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/), [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/), and [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/). ![Developing Flow Rolling at Different Levels](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbreakdown_illustration_a_blend_between_brazilian_jiu__97cd802d-9455-441d-9afe-abbe76210b87-1024x574.png "sonnybrownbreakdown_illustration_a_blend_between_brazilian_jiu__97cd802d-9455-441d-9afe-abbe76210b87 › Sonny Brown")## Developing Flow Rolling at Different Levels The approach to flow rolling may vary depending on the grappling skill level. Tailor the complexity and intensity to the abilities of those involved. ### Flow Rolling for Beginners For beginners, focus on: - Mastering basic positions first - Simple situational flow drills - Providing more guidance and rules - Troubleshooting any spazzing issues - Keeping things slow with minimal resistance - Chaining 2-3 techniques together - Emphasizing positional awareness Don't overwhelm beginners. Keep flows simple and controlled. Ensure good habits and reactions develop. Provide oversight and feedback. ### Flow Rolling for Advanced Students For advanced students, focus on: - Chaining techniques seamlessly - Shifting between various positions - Increasing pace and resistance gradually - Allowing free exploration and improvisation - Cultivating intuitive flowing skills - Emphasizing rhythm and reactions - Sparking creativity and innovation Advanced students can handle more complex and dynamic flowing. Take off the training wheels and allow them to experiment. Provide feedback only when needed. ## The Art of Flow Rolling Flow rolling provides a fun, educational way for grapplers to expand their skills. The cooperative nature encourages exploration. Flow drills ingrain technique sequences through repetition. Over time, flowing can become a state of mind permeating all training. Dedicate time to regularly flow with intent and purpose. Embrace the learning process rather than chasing taps. Flow rolling complements normal sparring. Together they provide balanced development. Consistent flow training will improve reactions, timing, chaining, transitions, vision, rhythm, and more. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts **Tags:** jiu jitsu, martial artist, philosophy, warrior mindset --- ### [Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/) **Published:** August 5, 2025 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/20_maeda_myths-1024x576.jpg "20_maeda_myths") The following article, *The 20 Myths of Mitsuyo Maeda*, was originally published on [Roberto Pedreira’s](https://www.amazon.com.au/stores/Roberto-Pedreira/author/B07JML5YKC "Roberto Pedreira’s") *Global Training Report*, a vital resource for anyone interested in the true history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. As that website is no longer active, I’ve chosen to host a backup here to preserve its valuable insights. In my [interview with Robert Drysdale](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/robert_drysdale_bjj_history.jpg "Robert Drysdale BJJ History") on the *[Sonny Brown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")*, we discussed the myths surrounding Mitsuyo Maeda’s legacy and how much of the accepted BJJ origin story has been shaped more by marketing than verifiable history. Drysdale mentioned this article directly, calling it essential reading for anyone willing to question the simplified and often romanticised versions of the past that circulate in the martial arts world. Pedreira’s work is clear, detailed and well-sourced. It may not read like a storybook, but the historical value is undeniable. Whether you agree with all of his conclusions or not, the questions he raises and the evidence he presents are too important to dismiss. # Top 20 Maeda Myths (aka Conde Koma) Rorion Gracie reintroduced jiu-jitsu to the world partly by skillfully hyping his dad, Helio Gracie (for four early examples, see [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths2_GIA1988.htm), [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths3_PatJordan1989.htm), [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths4_GIA1992.htm), and [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_in_Japan.htm)). He was criticized for favoring his dad at the expense of his uncle Carlos (most volubly by [Reyla](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/reyla_rev.htm) [Gracie](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Reila)). And by [Eduardo Pereira](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/cartas.htm) and others for ignoring Carlson, Robson, and numerous other legends. But what Rorion did was neither unusual nor new. Hype and obfuscation have always been part of the business of martial arts, and jiu-jitsu in particular. The founder of Kodokan Judo, and indirectly BJJ, [Jigoro Kano](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/ "Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano With Andy From School Of Grappling") (嘉納冶五郎) himself pointed it out in 1889 and he wasn't immune to its attractions ([here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Kano_hype)). In fact, Kano innovated many of the methods that are still used today to promote martial arts. Moreover, Kano's own jûjutsu/judo odyssey began when he was attracted by choreographed martial arts shows not unlike the pro-wrestling and jiu-jitsu stage shows that followed. Possibly without even realizing, Rorion was following in the footsteps of the ultimate "Asian master". The methods were tried, they were true. And as we can see, they worked and are still working ([here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Inspirations)). Not exactly by design, the Gracies, and even more so, their followers, over-hyped a Kodokan judoka named Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma), who, they say, taught Carlos Gracie "real jiu-jitsu" which he, Carlos, improved and Brazilianized. Maeda's jiu-jitsu, although real, was not real enough for Carlos Gracie. Either Maeda neglected to teach his best student (according to Carlos, himself), about leverage, or Carlos forgot about it when he Brazilianized and improved jiu-jitsu. Along came Carlos' younger brother Helio, who added the leverage that had been missing. Actually the Gracies have had relatively little to say about Maeda. None of them met him, with the possible but by no means certain exception of Carlos, who was an unreliable source of information about virtually anything and everything. Most of the misinformation floating around the internet and in popular UFC-inspired mass-market books about Maeda comes from other people, including researchers, martial arts teachers, academy owners, and anonymous forum posters. Following are the 18 Top Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda (for more, and documentation see *Craze 1* and *Craze 2*). Note. Long vowels are indicated with a circumflex or macron. Japanese names and some familiar terms are written as they are written by Kodokan (for example, judo, Kodokan, Jigoro Kano). Names are written in the western style when written alphabetically; in Japanese style, family name first, when written in kanji (example: Mitsuyo Maeda versus 前田光世). ### Was Maeda’s real name Mayeda or Esai Maeda? **Myth 1. Maeda's name was Mayeda, or Esai Maeda.** **Fact:** There is much misinformation about Maeda's name. Part of it is due to the fact that spelling was unstandardized at the time, people did not know how to write or pronounce Japanese words or names; Japanese people had various names and changed them from time to time; and it is sometimes impossible to know how a Japanese person's name (written in kanji characters) is pronounced unless they tell you. Japanese readers were only slightly less confused than foreigners. Almost everyone's name was pronounced or written incorrectly at various times, including even Jigoro Kano's name and the name of his training facility and system, Kodokan. Maeda's family name was written with two kanji characters: 前田. This is pronounced with two syllables (or mora), approximately like my-da (the a in da pronounced like the e in the). His personal name before leaving Japan was written 英世 pronounced Hideyo (which can be but isn't pronounced Eise). While in America and just before leaving for England he legally changed it to Mitsuyo, written 光世. [Kohyama Norio](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Kohyama) speculates that Maeda changed his name in July 1905 because he didn't want to be confused with the famous Japanese medical researcher [Noguchi Hideyo](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Noguchi) (野口英世) who was also in New York at that time. Kohyama doesn't offer any evidence but simply asserts that it "can be supposed" (考えられる). It may seem like academic hair-splitting. It's not. It tells us that the speaker or writer got the information second or third hand and is recycling myths and misinformation. (Unfortunately, reading Japanese is no guarantee of getting accurate information, with some exceptions.) Maeda used various other ring names over the years, including Yamato Maida and Conde Koma, all mixed and spelled in a wide variety of ways (such as Yamato Koma, among many others). He also adopted the name Octavio (aka Otavio) in Brazil. In fact, Maeda's name on his gravestone in Belém is spelled "Mayeda" (Octavio Mitsuyo Mayeda) while his wife's name (buried with him) is spelled "Maeda" (May Maeda Koma). ### Did Mitsuyo Maeda teach Carlos Gracie? **Myth 2. Maeda taught Carlos Gracie.** **Fact:** Carlos took some lessons from Jacyntho Ferro. Jacyntho Ferro was one of Maeda's students. There is no evidence that Carlos ever met Maeda. Carlos lineage therefore goes back to Maeda via Jacyntho Ferro. By the same token, it goes back to Kano. By the same token, everyone who trains jiu-jitsu or ever did, has a lineage that goes back to Kano. And even farther because Kano also had numerous teachers (although he was certified by only one, see *Craze 1* chapter 5 for details and documentation). A different question is who certified Carlos Gracie. Taking lessons from someone and being certified by them are entirely different things. There is no evidence that anyone (who was qualified to do so) ever certified Carlos Gracie or vouched for his knowledge of or abilities in "jiu-jitsu" (excluding Helio, who was not a neutral source, and whose opinions about Carlos were contradictory and ever-changing). ### Was Carlos Gracie Maeda’s top student? **Myth 3. Carlos was Maeda's prize pupil.** **Fact:** So Carlos claimed (but denied by Rorion, Helio, Donato Pires dos Reis, among others). See # 1 above and *Choque 1,* *Choque 3, and Gracie* 2008). ### Did Mitsuyo Maeda teach Helio Gracie? **Myth 4. Maeda taught Helio Gracie.** So says [Erik Paulson](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Erik). Erik is a knowledgeable teacher and former student of Yori Nakamura, Rickson Gracie, and Rigan Machado; an experienced competitor; a Hollywood movie stuntman/actor; and as of recently, the author of a book about martial arts history. Also so says [Joe Rogan](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Joe). Joe is a popular internet talk-show host. According to Joe, "Count Mayeda...who...he came to Brazil and taught Carlos and Rorion and, and \[*sic*\] Helio, well, mostly Helio." **Fact:** Helio never trained with Maeda. Helio always denied that he even met Maeda. He never even heard of jiu-jitsu or Maeda until sometime after 1929, he claimed. See for examples *Choque 2*, *Choque 3*, [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/helio.htm), [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/helio.htm), and [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_in_Japan.htm). ### Was Maeda a jiu-jitsu practitioner? **Myth 5. Maeda was a "jiu-jitsu practitioner".** Again, according to [Erik Paulson](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Erik), but also many others. **Fact:** Maeda was not a jiu-jitsu practitioner. Maeda was a Kodokan judoka. He never practiced jiu-jitsu (or more correctly, jûjutsu) other than the jûjutsu that was contained in Kodokan judo. The first person in the Western world who used the word "jiu-jitsu" was a Japanese student of Kano who was discussing Kodokan judo (he was explicit about that). (Actually an editor was responsible for the misspelling). Moreover, Kodokan Judo was not a "style". (Although some Japanese authorities referred to the jûjutsu component of Kodokan judo as [Kanô ryû](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Koga_Zansei_1934)). It was a system. The system included techniques from several jujutsu (柔術) styles (流) and various other forms of grappling (including sumo and Western wrestling styles). The only jûjutsu system Maeda knew was the amalgam that comprised Kodokan judo's technical component. What Carlos learned from Jacyntho Ferro was judo. (See *Choque 1* chp. 9, and [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/drysdale_2018_maeda_promotes_5.htm) and [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/Robert_Drysdale_4.htm)). Erik may be using the word "jiu-jitsu" to mean ground grappling (as many people do these days). But Maeda did not know or care much about ground grappling. It didn't interest him and he didn't bother to train it in Japan, according to himself (see *Craze 2* for details and documentation). (This is a simplified summary. The relationships between jûjuitsu, jiu-jitsu, and judo were complicated. Almost everyone was either confused or linguistically inconsistent. See *Craze 1* and *Craze 2* for details and documentation regarding all points mentioned above.) ### Did Mitsuyo Maeda have over 1,000 fights? **Myth 6. Maeda had over 1,000 matches.** So says [Erik Paulson](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Erik) along with many other people. According to one [Japanese historian](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Takahashi_1999), Maeda had ”2,000 fights without any losses" \["二０００回戦い不敗を誇る”\] **Fact:** Maeda's matches consisted of a handful of catch as catch can contests, in which he was somewhat successful (see *Craze 2* for details). He also had "matches" against people who attended his demonstrations. Most of his matches were prepared exhibitions disguised as authentic battles, against his own group of judoka, and with members of groups of professional wrestlers (who worked for Maeda's own employers), all in the context of stage shows. Maeda never pretended (to his friends in Japan) that these were anything other than fake fights. He also had matches (if you can call them that) against curious, untrained spectators at his shows, always under very tightly specific conditions with numerous restrictions. Finally he had a few matches, apparently genuine, with people who had some athletic abilities, but no judo experience. For example, with boxers who were not permitted to punch, and so on. They were in every case or almost every case, all smaller than Maeda (there were not many of these type of matches). Maeda also had a few matches with curious practitioners of other grappling styles. Maeda personally regarded them as "training" (稽古)rather than fights (勝負). He also had a few encounters (he said) with jiu-jitsu or judo wannabes, people who overestimated their abilities after reading a book, watching a show, or taking a few privates. So, using a very loose definition of "match" that includes private sparring sessions with newbies and faked wrestling shows, Maeda had many. However based on his fights that can be verified (see *Craze 1* appendix 8, *Craze 2* appendix 2, and *Choque 1* appendix 2), the number of his legit fights could be counted one three or four hands and even some of those are questionable. The idea that Mitsuyo Maeda had thousands of fights and victories originated with Susukida Zaun in 1912 (Susukida 1912-a; 1912-b). It was nothing more than speculation, based on the unsupported assumption that Maeda must be fighting constantly, 2-3 fights every night, and seldom or never losing (even though Susukida's own evidence contradicts his assumption). Evidence now shows clearly that Maeda did not have challengers from the audience on most nights, and most of his "fights" were either with his friends or fellow performers. To be perfectly clear, Maeda had some legitimate matches (where there were rules specifying how to win) and some quasi-matches (without rules specifying how to win, which Maeda himself regarded as "training" rather than fighting). These were exceptions to his usual schedule of public exhibitions and show matches. (Many examples of all varieties of Maeda's public matches (etc.) are described with documentation in *Craze 2*). ### Did Maeda train the Russian police? **Myth 7. Maeda taught the Russian police.** **Fact:** Maeda did not teach the Russian police and did not go to Russia. When Maeda needed a paying job, after Spain, he considered various destinations including Russia, but decided to go to Cuba instead. He never went to Russia. He was planning to go back to Japan via Europe after he finished his South America visit. But he never left Brazil except for a series of stage performances in Cuba in 1921. ### Was Maeda (Conde Koma) a catch wrestler? **Myth 8. Maeda was a catch wrestler.** According to [Erik Paulson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-paulson-interview-shooto-spirit/ "Erik Paulson On Free Thinking, Submissions, Shooto & Spirit") and others. **Fact:** Mitsuyo Maeda competed in a catch as catch can wrestling tournament in 1908 and one other catch match a few months later. He was moderately successful (see *Craze 2*, chapter 4). Maeda did not consider that competing in a handful of catch matches in 1908 made him a catch wrestler. He was both a Kodokan judoka and a professional wrestler. Being a professional wrestler, to Maeda, meant entertaining the public. Judo was an identity, pro wrestling was a job. He admired catch wrestlers' skills (he said) and was not averse to learning what he could that was useful for his stage shows for example pinning, because his judo newaza was weak (he said) ### Was Mitsuyo Maeda a vale tudo fighter? **Myth 9. Maeda was a vale tudo fighter.** **Fact:** Mitsuyo Maeda never had a vale tudo fight. He talked about fighting famous boxers, such as Tommy Burns, James J. Jeffries, and Jack Johnson, but didn't fight them. He was confident (he said) that he would win. He was also confident (he said) that he could win against knives and guns. But this was just talk. None of it happened. Maeda faced (he said) a few boxers. By "boxers" he meant they wore gloves and were free to try to swing at him. He did not mention many details about when, where, and who, and none of the alleged encounters can be confirmed. In some cases, Maeda himself said the "boxers" were beginners with minimal skills at best. In other cases, their skills were not sufficient for them to gain a name in the boxing world. The legend of Maeda as a vale tudo fighter seems to have been invented (or if not, then most widely disseminated) by a book reviewer named Mark Gorsuch. It was then borrowed by Reila Gracie (without citing Mark Gorsuch) and recycled. According to Mark Gorsuch "Maeda’s strategy in an anything goes fight was to set his opponent up with an elbow or low kick. He would then go in for a throw and finish his opponent with a choke or joint lock”. He cited no evidence for this claim because there is no evidence. There is no evidence because it didn't happen. But [Reila Gracie](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/reyla_rev.htm) must have thought that Mark Gorsuch found evidence in the book he was reviewing, Norio Kohyama's 1997 book ライオンの夢ーーコンデコマ＝前田光世伝. According to Reyla, "His \[Maeda's\] style was aggressive. He would use kicks and punches to bring his opponent to the ground, and then quickly finish him with a 'lock' or choke" ( “*Seu estilo ao lutar era agressivo―usava chutes e soccos para lever o adversario ao solo, onde rapidamente o finalizava com uma chave ou um estrangulamento*” (Gracie, Reila, 2008, p. 37; *Carlos Gracie: O Criador de uma Dinastia*). For a synopsis/commentary on Reila's book, see [Here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/reyla_rev.htm). Mark Gorsuch didn't get this from Kohyama's book because it isn't in Kohyama's book. He also didn't get it from *[Gracies in Action 1](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths2_GIA1988.htm),* or Pat Jordan's *[Playboy](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths3_PatJordan1989.htm)* article, or *[Gracies in Action 2](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths4_GIA1992.htm)*. Then where did he get it? Back in the day, people watched the UFC and saw punches and low kicks, followed up by judo techniques such as guard and mount positions, armlocks, and chokes (all judo positions and techniques). Fans were told that the Gracies learned from Maeda. The Gracies must have learned about punches and kicks from Maeda. Therefore, Maeda must have taught them. Therefore it must have been a feature of his "style" or "strategy". It all fit (in fact, it was like a typical conspiracy theory, minus the conspiracy). There's a hole in the theory. All of Conde Koma’s matches were fought without striking. His style did not include elbows, punches or kicks. Mitsuyo Maeda wasn't a vale tudo fighter. ### Did Maeda fight John Piening, the “Butcher Boy”? **Myth 10. Mitsuyo Maeda** **fought John Piening, aka the "Butcher Boy".** **Fact:** So says [Jose Cairus](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#Cairus) (2011, p. 119 note 43). John Piening was a well-known New York-based 28 year old (in 1905) Greco-Roman wrestler whose ring-name was "Brooklyn Butcher Boy" or just "Butcher Boy". The match was a best 2 of 3 falls professional match. Japanese authors refer to Butcher Boy (or Brooklyn Butcher Boy) not John Piening. Nevertheless, they described the fight as brutal. Butcher Boy put up a ferocious fight but Maeda, they said, totally dominated and won the first two falls (hence the fight). Some writers (including Raisuke Kudô) described Butcher Boy trying to punch Maeda. The original source of the information was Susukida 1912-a (retold with some tweaks in 1943). Susukida claimed that his source was Maeda himself (Maeda, or someone, sent an American news article that Susukida misinterpreted). (Some of Maeda's reports from overseas were published in Japanese magazines between 1909 and 1911). Subsequent writers over the years borrowed from Susukida (unavoidably, as it was the only source) and tended to exaggerate Butcher Boy's size. The original size estimates also came from Susukida 1912-a. (To spell it out, there are not ten different independent sources, rather there is one source, which happens to be inaccurate. The primary source, which was not cited, was also inaccurate; it is cited in *Craze 2*). | **Author** | **Date** | **BB Wt.** | **BB Ht.** | **MM Wt.** | **MM Ht.** | |---|---|---|---|---|---| | Susukida | 1912-a | 248.1 lb | 6' + | 148.9 lb | 5' 4" | | Susukida | 1943 | 248.1 lb. | | | | | Kudô | 1972 | 250 lb | 6' | 146 lb | 5' 2" | | Kojima | 1983 | 330 lb | | 138.6 lb | 5' 5" | | Yokota | 1996 | 330 lb | 180 cm | | | | Kohyama | 1997 | 248.1lb | 180 cm | | | | Marushima | 1997 | 248.6 lb | 182 cm | 149.6 lb | 5' 5" | | Takahashi | 1999 | 330 lb | 187 cm | 165 lb | 5' 5" | | Matsunami | 2002 | 242 lb | | | | | Tanigami | 2012 | 248.6 lb | 182 cm | | | | Judo Daijiten | 1999 | | | 140.8 lb | 5' 5" | Note. BB = Butcher Boy; MM = Mitsuyo Maeda. The weights and heights were provided variably in kilograms, pounds, *kan* (貫 = 8.27 lb), *kin* (斤 = 1.323 lb), *shaku* (尺 = 0.995 feet), and *sun* (寸= 1.193 inches). Some authors provided measurements in several forms with approximate and sometimes inaccurate equivalents. The works referenced above can be found [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#references). (*Judo Daijiten* does not mention a Butch Boy fight). According to *Judo Daijiten* 1999, citing Oimatsu 1976 (republished in 1979), Maeda was 164 cm tall and weighed 64 kg (140. 8 lb) between 1897 and 1899 (Oimatsu may have been drawing on Susukida's estimates). Maeda's weight according to *Judo Daijiten* is provided for reference. Undoubtedly he would have put on a few pounds by 1905. There are several problems with the story of Maeda versus John Butcher Boy Piening. The first is that John Piening weighed or wrestled at 170 to 175 lb, not 248 to 330 lb. The second is that John Piening was 3,000 miles away on the night the fight was scheduled to take place. The third problem is that Maeda's scheduled opponent was not John Piening, or anyone else named Butcher Boy, but instead a 130 lb wannabe catch as catch can wrestler named Oscar Dresedorf, whose nick-name was not "Butcher Boy". The best evidence available indicates that either this fight did not happen, or if it did was too insignificant to report (details and documentation in *Craze 2*). Piening, like most wrestlers, was skeptical about jiu-jitsu. Maeda was not a high-profile opponent. In fact, in the New York pro wrestling world in 1905 he was nobody. He had no resume as a professional wrestler. Piening, already famous in New York, had nothing to gain by challenging Maeda so he didn't. Instead he challenged Katsukuma Higashi, who was famous. That fight didn't happen either. ### Did Maeda defeat a Boston champion named Mayer? **Myth 11. Maeda fought a boxing-wrestling champion named Mayer in 1905 and demolished him.** **Fact:** Most of the same authors who erroneously claim that Maeda fought Butcher Boy also claim that in late August 1905, or around then, he fought an 83 kg wrestling-boxing champion from Boston named Mayer (マーヤ which could be Maia, Meier, Mayer, Meyer, or others). As with Butcher Boy, this is based on Susukida's original story and are unconfirmed and improbable. ### Did Maeda meet President Theodore Roosevelt? **Myth 12. Maeda taught or met the American President Theodore Roosevelt or fought an enormous American wrestler in his presence in the White House.** **Fact:** It was mentioned in Mark Gorsuch review's of Kohyama (above). Mark Gorsuch did not claim that it happened, only that John Stevens claimed it in *Three Budo Masters*. John Stevens did not provide sources and was probably relying on Raisuke Kudôs book. But Raisuke Kudo was incorrect. Maeda did not meet the President or teach him and didn't fight anyone in the White House. Raisuke Kudô was mixing up several other incidents that did happen. But neither one involved Maeda. ### **Did Maeda teach the Gracies the secrets of real fighting?** **Myth 13: Maeda taught the Gracies the secrets of real fighting (according to [Helio](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/helio.htm) himself, echoed by Rorion and Reila.)** **Fact:** Mitsuyo Maeda may have been an expert at real fighting (as opposed to judo), but there is no evidence of that from his stage and competition career. He described getting into a brawl with five policemen in Boston in 1906 but aspects of the account leave room for doubt as to its accuracy ([source](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm#susukida1)). Whatever the Gracie brothers knew about real fighting and wherever they learned, it didn't come from Maeda. Oddly, the only real fighting technique Helio used in the ring, apart from judo techniques, was the kick to the throat that he delivered to Dudú in 1937 (see *Choque 1*, chapter 17). ### Did Mitsuyo Maeda introduce jiu-jitsu to Brazil? **Myth 14: Mitsuyo Maeda "Conde Koma" introduced Jiu-jitsu to Brazil.** **Fact:** Maeda was not the first. The first was Sada Miyako (aka Miaco, aka Miako, who arrived in Rio under mysterious circumstances on December 31, 1908, along with a female partner, who performed with him. His actual training background if any was never mentioned and is still unknown. Nevertheless, Sada Miyako taught a general sportsman/capoeira expert named Mario Aleixo (according to Aleixo himself without offering any proof). Later Aleixo taught jiu-jitsu in Rio, even before Maeda arrived, sometimes collaborating with a Japanese instructor. Amateur jiu-jitsu matches were held in late 1909 (see *Choque 1*, chp. 7). ### Was Maeda the world jiu-jitsu champion? **Myth 15. Mitsuyo Maeda was the World Jiu-Jitsu champion.** **Fact:** There was no such thing. Yet many people claimed the title of world jiu-jitsu champion (see *Craze 2* for numerous examples). Maeda's particular claim came in Cuba when he and his partner Satake 4-*dan* put on series of fake matches to decide who was the world champion. Maeda "won". (Both Maeda and Satake admitted the matches were fake). They repeated the same charade in Mexico a year later. ### Was Yokoyama Sakujirō Mitsuyo Maeda’s teacher? **Myth 16. Maeda's judo teacher was Yokoyama Sakujirō (横山作次郎).** **Fact:** Maeda's first judo teacher was a Kodokan *shodan* (初段) named Iwazaki ((岩崎). He was also instructed by Kawahara Yatarō (川原弥太郎) and Washio (鷲尾), and a *nidan* (二段) named Isoya (磯谷) ### Was Professor Tomita Maeda’s teacher? **Myth 17. Maeda's judo teacher was Prof. Tomita.** **Fact:** Prof. Tomita out-ranked Maeda by two *dan*, and was older (by about 13 years) and Maeda was Tomita's demonstration *uke* for a year in America. Kodokan and other Japanese sources do not mention Tomita as being Maeda's teacher. (Prof. Tomita was Tomita Tsunejirō, 富田常次郎; for details about Prof. Tomita see *Craze 1* chapter 5, and *Craze 2*). ### Was Mitsuyo Maeda a Japanese spy? **Myth 18. Maeda was a Japanese spy.** **Fact:** Mitsuyo Maeda was accused of being a Japanese spy in Cuba during his first visit in December 1908 to July 1909, by an anti-Japan American-owned English language newspaper (according to Maeda via Susukida Zaun 1912-a, pp. 416-418). No evidence was offered. Maeda denied it. He was a wrestler, not a spy, he said. It is true that Japan had agents posted in countries of interest and recruited both Japanese nationals and foreigners to help gather intelligence and influence public opinion (see *Craze 1*). It is true that Maeda had contacts with Japanese diplomats and agents in some places (not necessarily Cuba, see *Craze 2*). It is true that some Japanese diplomats and agents had trained at Kodokan. However, Maeda's value to Japan's military and foreign ministry was in creating a positive impression of Japan through his judo teaching and wrestling shows (as he emphasized in his letters to Japan). He may have provided opinions and impressions, when asked on social occasions, as anyone else could have. That was hardly a big deal considering the access to the highest levels of American government and military that judo men had already enjoyed. So Maeda possibly was, but probably was not a spy in any sense of that word. ### Did Mitsuyo Maeda teach Rorion Gracie? **Myth 19. Maeda taught Rorion Gracie.** According to Joe Rogan (see # 4 above). **Fact:** Maeda did not teach Rorion. Mitsuyo Maeda died in 1941. Rorion was born in 1952. (We get it; Joe is not a historian, he is simply reflecting common myths and misconceptions, while at the same time spreading them among his vast audience of MMA fans.) ### **Did Mitsuyo Maeda know aikido?** **Myth 20. Maeda knew aikido. According to aikido practitioner and Hollywood movie actor (*Fight Club*) Edward Norton: "He \[Maeda\] knew aikido and jiu-jitsu, offered to teach his \[ Gastão Gracie's\] sons."** **Fact:** Maeda left Japan (and never returned) before aikido was invented. Maeda did not know aikido and the only "jiu-jitsu" he knew was the technical component of Kodokan judo. See *Craze 1* chapter 5. (We get it; Edward Norton is an actor, not a historian. See # 19.) *For more documented information about Mitsuyo Maeda see Choque 1, Craze 1, Craze 2. and Craze 3 (forthcoming 2020).* ### Notes How [Kano](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kano-jigoro-educator-founder-judo/ "Kano Jigoro As Educator & Founder Of Judo") constructed and promoted his system is explained and documented in *[Craze1](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/https://www.amazon.com/Craze-Life-Times-Jiu-Jitsu-1854-1904/dp/1981124985/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=globaltrain02-20&linkCode=w00&linkId=8ef103a2fae866ca26850f683c2be11c&creativeASIN=1981124985)*, chapter 5 and passim. However Rorion's more direct inspirations (whether or not he was aware of it) were Yae Kichi Yabe and Irving Hancock (see *Craze 1* and *Craze 2*). According to [Erik Paulson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-paulson-interview-shooto-spirit/ "Erik Paulson On Free Thinking, Submissions, Shooto & Spirit"): "....Count Mayeda, who actually trained Helio Gracie, who was a judo and jiu-jitsu practitioner, and he was also a catch-wrestler. He had over 1,000 matches." From [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6c8qeo36ZA](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6c8qeo36ZA) The Joe Rogan-Edward Norton interview is probably not super-recent, but is still on youtube as of November 5, 2019. The comments about "Count Mayeda", aikido, etc. come at about 8:00. See [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUwU5VMXw64](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUwU5VMXw64) Koga Zansei (see below, page 30) was one who did. It was not common but it was not rare either. *Takahashi 1999, p. 82.* There are many Kodokan sources, including Kano's voluminous writings (see *Craze 1*), Koga Zansei 1934, Maruyama 1939, the writings of Oimatsu Shinichi, and others. *Jūdō* *Daijiten* (柔道大辞典) provides brief summaries based on the abovementioned (however, errors are included as well). Maeda's significance for Kodokan was that he was "spreading judo". In that regard, his professional ring activities were a double-edged sword and mixed blessing. *Kohyama 1997, pp. 105-106.* *Dr. Noguchi's Journey*, 2003, by Atsushi Kita (Kodansha International, trans. Peter Duefee). Dr. Noguchi also changed his name. He was originally named Noguchi Seisaku. He died in November 1928 in Bahia, Brazil via Rio de Janeiro, while investigating a yellow fever outbreak (Kita pp. 230-231). There are many excellent studies of Japanese martial arts history (and are cited in *Craze 1*). With very few exceptions all are in Japanese only. However, none have much (or anything) to do with Maeda. Maeda described this fight in Susukida 1912-a, pp. 132-155. Susukida almost certainly embellished it. ### References Cairus, Jose. (2011). Modernization, Nationalism, and the Elite: The Genesis of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, 1905-1920. *Tempo e Argumento, 3*(2), pp. 100-121. Gracie, Reila. (2008). *Carlos Gracie: O Criador de uma Dinastia.* Rio de Janeiro: Record. Jūdō Daijiten 柔道大辞典編集秀員会. (1999). 柔道大辞典. 東京: アテネ書房. Koga 古賀残星. (1934). 講道館今昔物語. 読売新聞. Kohyama 神山典士. (1997). ライオンの夢―コンデでコマ＝前田光世伝. 東京: 小学館. Kojima 小島貞二. (1983). 力道山以前の力道山たち (*Rikidozans before Rikidozan*). 東京: 三一書房. Kudō 工藤雷介. (1972.) `秘録日本柔道. 東京スポーツ新聞 Matsunami 松浪健太. (2002). Maeda Mitsuyo: 世界相手に運戦運勝. In 日本人お足跡, pp. 16-58. 東京: 産経新聞二ユースサービス。 Marushima 丸島隆雄. (1997). 前田光世―世界柔道武者修行―. 東京: 島津書房、 Maruyama (Ed.) 丸山三造(編著). (1939). 大日本柔道史. 東京: 講道館. Oimatsu 老松信一. (1955). 柔道五十年史. 昭和30．時事通信社. Oimatsu 老松信一. (1966). 柔道百年. 昭和41．時事通信社. Oimatsu 老松信一. (1976, 1979). 柔道百年 (改定新版). 昭和51．時事通信社. Oimatsu 老松信一. (1984-a). 講道館柔道殿堂の人びと1. 柔道, 55:11, pp. 34-37. Oimatsu 老松信一. (1984-b). 講道館柔道殿堂の人びと2. 柔道, 55:12, pp. 24-27. Pereira, Eduardo. (1998). Jiu-Jitsu Brasileiro. *Boletim da Federação de Jiu-Jitsu,* Ano 1, No. 1, Setembro. (English translation [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20191119134233/http://global-training-report.com/cartas.htm)). Susukida 薄田斬雲. (1912-a/明治45). 前田光世記・『世界横行柔道武者修業』博文館. Susukida 薄田斬雲. (1912-b/大正1). 前田光世記・『新柔道武者修行』博文館. Susukida 薄田斬雲. (1943). 日本柔道魂前田光世の世界制覇. 鶴書房. Tanigami 谷釜尋徳. (2012). 柔道の普及と変容に関する研究: グレイシー柔術に着目して (その 1). 東洋法学, 55(3), 304-285. Takahashi 高橋宏幸. 柔道家のみた開拓への夢. In 物語―２０世紀人物伝。東京：株式会社ぎゅせい, p. 82. Yokota 横田順弥. (1996). 明治バンカラ快人伝. 筑摩書房. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts **Tags:** BJJ, jiu-jitsu, judo, kano, maeda, mitsuto maeda --- ### [Why Everyone Loves the Padman (And What That Tells Us About How We Train)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-everyone-loves-the-padman/) **Published:** March 7, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sonny Brown training MMA padwork](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_5-1024x576.png "sonnybrown_padwork_5 › Sonny Brown")I've spent years arguing that padwork is overrated. So naturally, I found myself in Tokyo, paying top dollar for a private session with the most expensive padman I could find. It's December 2025, and I was trying to fit in as much training as possible before the gyms started shutting down over the Christmas and New Year period, but I hadn't done any work with a striking coach. I sent out a few messages, and a lot of places were already closed, but I got through to Vaselius gym. The gym is owned by Takeru, and if you follow them on Instagram, you'll know the image: coaches assembled like the padman equivalent of Voltron, calf kick shields, thigh kick shields, body shield, Thai pads, focus mitts. The whole arsenal. Combined with lightning-fast calf kicks, toe kicks, and combinations from some of the best strikers in the world, it makes for an impressive visual. They offer private pad sessions with all their coaches, with the most expensive being head coach Masakazu Watanabe. I figured, who knows if I'll ever get the chance to get back there, so if I'm going to do it, let's go straight to the top. ![Sonny Brown training striking combinations during a padwork session at Vaselius Gym in Tokyo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_4-576x1024.jpg "sonnybrown_padwork_4 › Sonny Brown")![Sonny Brown throwing kicks during a padwork session at Vaselius Gym in Tokyo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_3-169x300.jpg "sonnybrown_padwork_3 › Sonny Brown")![Sonny Brown practising padwork at Vaselius Gym in Tokyo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_2-576x1024.jpg "sonnybrown_padwork_2 › Sonny Brown")## The Honest Case Against Padwork Before I get into the session, I should be upfront: back home, I've never been a huge fan of padwork. Not that I think it's useless. It can be fun, you can throw with real power, you can work on specifics, and it's something every fighter needs to understand. But I've seen it too many times where someone looks incredible on the pads, and then the moment they're in a live situation, it's a completely different person. **That gap tells you something.** To me, padwork is a tool. And like any tool, it reaches a point of diminishing returns compared to live work. Could you make it more realistic and valuable? Absolutely. The padman striking back, moving like a fighter, changing timing, making it feel less like a choreographed dance routine. But far too often, sessions drift into long, complicated sequences that fighters have forgotten within two weeks and would never pull off in a fight anyway. You could still make a case for those elaborate combinations if you're honest about what you're actually training. A nine-punch combo is never happening in a real fight. But the two or three punch sections that make it up? Those can and do happen. That's the real benefit, if the fighter understands it that way. The problem is when someone has logged hundreds of hours on pads but never developed the timing, distance, or entries required to even begin a combination. Then they rely on physical presence or luck to land anything. The padwork gave them the movement without the understanding. ## So, Why Does Everyone Love It? Here's the thing, though. I completely understand why people love hitting pads. It *feels* incredible. The crack when a shot lands clean. The feeling of nailing a combination perfectly. You get to look and feel like all the fighters you've admired, without any risk of getting dropped. It's errorless learning at its finest. And there's an instant human connection with the pad holder. Their full attention is on you. Without even realising it, you're already looking for their approval, and with minimal effort, they can give it to you. The command comes, you execute, you're rewarded immediately. If that pad holder has a reputation? Even better. Their credibility gets transferred onto you in real time. You work up a sweat. Endorphins are pumping. You walk away uninjured and feeling good. Learn a few slick combinations, and suddenly you've got something worth filming and showing your mates. Within a fairly short period of time, almost anyone can string together something that looks and feels legitimate. Few other training methods can build that kind of confidence that quickly. ## The Psychology of the Padman Here's where it gets interesting. You would have to be having a genuinely terrible day to flub every combination a pad holder calls out. And a pad holder would have to be in a particularly bad mood not to accommodate your level. The result? At the end of every pad session, you walk away as the winner of that exchange in your own mind. Contrast that with any form of sparring, live work, or partner drilling. There's always a chance you come out the other side having clearly done worse than your partners. That's a crucial part of the learning process, but it's a painful one that most people instinctively want to avoid. Nobody ever walks away thinking the padman got the better of them. That's why I think you'll often see MMA fighters switch camps because of a padman, but rarely because of a wrestling coach or a jiu-jitsu coach. Of course, the current meta in fighting lends itself to that as well, but a great wrestling coach might make you feel terrible. A great jiu-jitsu coach might make you feel genuinely incompetent. Learning in those sports often involves being taken down, held down, and submitted, repeatedly, until something clicks. The Padman never has to be the bearer of that kind of news. And when you combine that with a padman who might not even own a gym, so he doesn't have to worry about all the business side of things that can turn a lot of fighters off, then you have someone who can be entirely devoted to building the confidence of a fighter. Not a bad gig. ## The Dark Side Of course, there is a dark side to all of this. That confidence-building can tip over into delusion. Ronda Rousey is a prime example. With enough padwork and the right promotion behind her, she ended up on the cover of Ring Magazine, drifting further from her judo foundations and deeper into a new identity built on confidence from hitting pads. Eventually, that meets up with reality. If those long combinations against a stationary target don't transfer to live work, then you are still a sitting duck against someone with a decent jab-cross. And being a padman itself isn't without its costs. It can take a tremendous toll on the body, particularly the shoulders. And once those go, all the confidence and clout-building won't pay for the surgery. I am reminded of my interview with [Mittmaster Matt Chapman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/ "Mittmaster Matt Chapman On TLC For Training & MMA Padwork") who told a story about Ricky Hatton's padman who used to have to inject his wrists with anaesthetic before every session of holding pads for him, and eventually that sacrifice was returned by Ricky Hatton dropping him and moving to another coach who could probably build more confidence in him without the hindrance of a failing body. > **“You get brutalised by your students and destroyed, then discarded when they no longer need you”** - Mittmaster Matt Chapman ## The Session So how was it? I walk in and get instructions to start shadowboxing. I started going. As it neared the 30-minute mark with no pads in sight, I started to wonder what exactly was happening. Was he waiting for me to stop? Was this a test? Stray glances weren't clearing it up. But then I caught myself, because what do I tell my own students? Keep doing what I've asked until I tell you to stop. So I kept going. There was something genuinely enjoyable about being a student again rather than the one giving the instructions, and just trusting the process without needing to know where it was headed. A little while longer, and he pads up, and we start going through some combinations. I land some kicks, and he gives me an "Ooooooo," as if to indicate he was surprised by my power. At least that's what I took it to mean. Either way, it felt good. Then he asks if I know how to do calf kicks. I say no, because I want to see how he would teach it. He gives me a brief instruction, and we're going. Box ticked for throwing calf kicks at Vaselius gym, landing combinations into calf kicks just like I'd seen on Instagram. He then asks if I know the Mikazuki kick. Again, I say no, and he motions to "Mikazuki boy" to come over and demonstrate. So now I'm knocking out calf kicks to Mikazuki kick combinations with Masakazu Watanabe, trademark long hair, a sweatband, and full-body armour. How good is that? We finish up, pick up some cool combinations along the way, and then at the end, we stand for a photo. I'll be honest, I'm prone to overthinking this stuff. At the end of the day, I'm just a bloke throwing punches and kicks in a gym. All that analysis about confidence, credibility transfer, how people want to feel, maybe that's just me disappearing down a rabbit hole of navel-gazing with no real-world application. I'd even started wondering whether the long hair, the sweatband, and the gold-and-white mats were all deliberately constructed or just incidental details I was reading too much into. And then he stepped back, pointed at the Vaselius logo on the mat, then turned and pointed at the one on the wall, and made sure both were in frame before the photo was taken. It was all confirmed in that one moment. None of it was incidental. That part stuck with me. The branding, the look, the feel. I get it. ## Was It Worth It? Without a doubt, I could have learned the same combinations in a regular class setting. The gym offers a regular timetable including beginner classes. But I didn't want a regular class. I wanted a pad round with one of the top guys. I got exactly what I was looking for, and the team there was all friendly and welcoming. It was great fun, and I had a great day. As I was reflecting on the session while having an Acai bowl on the ground floor of the three-level establishment, "The Vaselius Cafe", a dedicated cafe and merch store, I realised that maybe that's exactly the point. The real value of that session wasn't the calf kick or the mikazuki combination. It was finally understanding, from the inside, why people want to do pad rounds with the padman in the first place. Overall, it was how I felt, how I wanted to feel, and how powerful that is, for not just pads, but life in general. How are the people around you feeling? The vibe, as it is often more important to them than results or reality. ![Sonny Brown after a padwork session at Vaselius Gym in Tokyo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_1-576x1024.jpg "sonnybrown_padwork_1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts **Tags:** combat sports training, fight camp training, fight coaching, martial arts psychology, MMA training, Muay Thai training, padman, padwork, striking training --- ### [Why I Don't Teach Rubber Guard Anymore & Attribute Based Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/) **Published:** March 9, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sonny Brown - Rubberguard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_rubberguard-1024x576.png "Sonny Brown - Rubberguard › Sonny Brown")I am still the only person in Australia to win an MMA fight and a championship title via a gogoplata submission set up from rubber guard. Eddie Bravo gave me a shoutout, the sequence was featured on his "Mastering the System" series, and for a while, it felt like rubber guard was going to be a significant part of my identity in this sport. I tell you that not to brag, but to make clear that when I say I no longer teach rubber guard, it is not because I never understood it or never made it work. I did. The reasons I walked away from teaching it are more interesting than that. Coming from a Machado lineage, I never found rubber guard controversial the way others did. While I heard about people at some Gracie schools who were reportedly getting scolded by their coaches for playing rubber guard, lockdown or twister in class, we had the freedom to explore. My coach had trained with Eddie Bravo in LA, and those exact positions were in our purple belt syllabus. I took full advantage of that freedom. ![Sonny Brown - Gogoplata from mount](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/eventsbjj120413_2.jpg "eventsbjj120413_2 › Sonny Brown")The system was developed by Eddie Bravo, as a strip club DJ who was afraid of brain damage and wanted a way to minimise head trauma from bottom guard if he ever had to fight in MMA for money. But he never had to rely on it in the cage for cash, as he used it in a match and eventually set up a triangle choke to [submit Royler Gracie at ADCC 2003](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Z8kXXyq0E), which was enough to build an empire. Since then, the expectation that every 10th Planet member would become a rubber guard master has since quietly faded. The system is still taught, but 10th Planet as a whole seems to align with the current no-gi meta, and that meta has largely left rubber guard behind. Any [rubber guard master](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI8KA5puPLI) you find today is almost certainly a 10th Planet black belt, but not every 10th Planet black belt is a rubber guard master. ## The Rise and FALL of Rubber Guard The decline of rubber guard hype generally mirrors the decline of closed guard in high-level competition. The overall standard of grappling has risen so dramatically that the wide skill gaps which once made submissions from bottom a frequent occurrence in early MMA have largely closed. Threats of armbars and triangles remain valuable tools to force movement and reaction, but finishing from bottom guard is far less common than it once was. In professional no-gi jiu-jitsu, closed guard has also lost ground. Players would rather open their guard and look for leg entries, like K-guard, over sitting in a position that pins your hips and can be neutralised by good posture or a simple stack. While it naturally retains a decent self-defence application, Ben Saunders also managed to secure the first omoplata submission finish in UFC history from rubber guard, which deserves an honourable mention. ## CHANGING FROM Competitor to Coach I played rubber guard extensively during my blue- and purple-belt years, and it genuinely worked for me at a competitive level. When I started coaching, rubber guard was naturally one of the things I was eager to pass on. I had deep technical knowledge of the system, a competitive record to back it up, and, admittedly, a ready-made story about winning an Australian title that I was happy to wheel out. I went into those early lessons genuinely excited. What I was met with was a room full of people who could not comfortably get into the position at all. ## Attribute-Based Jiu-Jitsu What I had stumbled onto is something I now call "attribute-based jiu-jitsu": techniques that depend on specific physical attributes to function, where the attribute is doing as much work as the technique itself. Rubber guard is an obvious example, but it is far from the only one. You can think of multiple positions where a tall, long-limbed player it is a natural, almost effortless position to establish and work from. Where for someone shorter with a stockier frame, achieving the same mechanical advantage is a completely different proposition. None of these techniques are invalid, but if you are coaching them without acknowledging the attribute that makes them work, you are setting most of your class up to bang their head against a wall. Specifically for the rubber guard, the attribute is hip flexor flexibility. The standard response from the 10th Planet camp has always been either to [stretch and develop that flexibility](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OktcKhtMQ88) or to use enough hip angle that the flexibility requirement drops. Both are fair points. But most people who train jiu-jitsu are not looking to do additional mobility work outside of class to unlock a single guard system. They want to train, roll, have fun and get better. And there is a deeper problem: if someone already has the hip mobility to create the angle needed for rubber guard, their traditional closed-guard attacks are already going to work better anyway. The attribute that makes rubber guard accessible is the same attribute that makes it unnecessary. I suspect attribute-based concerns were part of the reason the Gracie side pushed back on rubber guard from the beginning, even if that was never quite how it was framed. ## Making the Switch to Williams Guard After seeing how little rubber guard transferred to most of my students and needing meniscus surgery on my preferred rubber-guard leg (Which I can't blame entirely on rubber guard), I switched to playing and teaching Williams Guard. For those unfamiliar, Williams Guard is a closed guard variation in which you control your opponent's posture by securing it to your own leg with your grips. The defensive benefits are similar to rubber guard in that it disrupts your opponent's structure from bottom position, but the flexibility requirement is dramatically lower. If you can bring your knee to your chest, you can get into Williams Guard. That covers the vast majority of people walking into any jiu-jitsu gym. It actually existed within the 10th Planet system under the name "London," though it was removed after a counter was identified. My view is that even when that counter lands, you still end up in a better position than standard bottom closed guard, and in MMA, that distinction matters. Far too often, we see fighters abandon closed guard entirely, opening up and surrendering back exposure as they scramble toward the cage. Williams Guard offers a way to stay composed, disrupt the top player's posture, and look for submissions or sweeps without requiring attributes most people simply do not have. The shift worked immediately. Students could actually get into the position. I had people successfully use it in competition within months of learning it, and the buy-in across different body types, ages and experience levels was far higher than anything I had seen with rubber guard. At the minimum, I teach it as a way to set up an omoplata, which you can use to sweep or stand back up. I even made a breakdown video of it, which surprisingly I could not find any footage of Shawn Williams, who it is named after, using it in competition. ## What It Taught Me About Coaching There is a stage many coaches go through where you believe the job is to impress people with how much you know. You have drilled a niche system for years, you have the competition results to prove it works, and you cannot wait to pass it all on. What nobody tells you is that demonstrating the full depth of your knowledge about a position is often the least useful thing you can do for a room full of people at different stages, with different bodies, and different goals. I had to learn that the hard way with rubber guard. The urge to teach everything I knew about the system was, if I am honest, more about my ego than my students' development. The Gogoplata win was a great story. The Eddie Bravo shoutout was a nice credential. And I wanted people to know about it. But wanting people to know about your credentials and actually improving their jiu-jitsu are not the same thing, and confusing the two is one of the easiest traps in coaching. The better measure was never how impressed the room looked. It was how many people could actually use, implement and remember what I showed them the next time they rolled. Rubber guard failed that test badly. And once I accepted that, a more honest question followed: how much of what I teach is actually attribute-based jiu-jitsu wearing the costume of technique? It is very easy to say "I like this" or "this works for me" without acknowledging that the reason it works is that you happen to have the right build, length or mobility for it. That can make for a great demonstration, but it isn't coaching. The distinction matters, especially when you do not know who will walk through the gym door on any given day. The job is to find what works for the widest range of people in the room, and to filter out the specialist material that will only ever apply to a select few in a handful of scenarios. That filtering process is uncomfortable when it means shelving knowledge you spent years building. But it is one of the most important things a coach can learn to do. The modern-day eco crowd may call these "Invariants", but I am sure a few old-school coaches would simply know this as "good jiu-jitsu". I never did get my 10th Planet black belt as I had once dreamed. But what the rubber guard years taught me about ego, about attributes, and about the difference between teaching and performing turned out to be worth more than anything else. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning, Martial Arts **Tags:** 10th planet jiu jitsu, BJJ Coaching, bjj coaching philosophy, grappling strategy, guard systems, jiu jitsu training, martial arts training, no gi jiu jitsu, rubber guard --- ### [Williams Guard For BJJ & MMA Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/williams-guard-bjj-mma-breakdown/) **Published:** August 14, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Williams Guard BJJ & MMA Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/williams_guard_shoulder_pin-1024x576.jpg "Williams Guard BJJ & MMA Breakdown › Sonny Brown")## Williams Guard ### **Key Points** The Williams Guard is a trapping guard that provides control over your opponent's posture and can be similar to a rubber guard but requires less flexibility as you only need to bring your knee to your shoulder. The trapping nature gives you excellent control that will prevent an opponent from striking with any power in MMA but also limits the ability to take the back, sweeping and choking options. **Videos Are Included for All Key Positions Discussed.** Setups will aim to get an overhook on the opponent, which can be when they place a hand on the mat or from pummeling in, then wrapping behind your leg to lock your hands together, creating a frame. Gripping options for the frame can vary, but a gable grip would be typical. The frame will then block the opponents head by keeping it at a 90-degree angle, or Neil Melanson prefers to drive it up into the collar bone. Ideally, you want to be on your side with a hip angle and not flat on your back when playing the guard, which will provide you with more attacking opportunities. You will then have a hooking arm and leg, leading to a trapped arm and leg on your opponent, with the other side acting as the free arm and leg. The most common attacks will then be the armbar, triangle and omoplata, which will be set up depending on the opponent's free arm position and if they are driving into the frame or pulling away from it. I will look closer at these attacks in future Nano Breakdowns. Prominent advocates for it are Shawn Williams where it gets the name Williams Guard from which was given to it by [John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/ "Luke Martin on Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System") and Neil Melanson, who calls it the Shoulder Pin, which he detailed in his excellent triangle chokes book. In grappling and MMA competitions, people who have used it include Dean Lister, Dominyka Obelenyte, Braulio Estima, Clark Gracie, Roger Gracie, Marcin Held, Jimy Hettes, Jake Swinney & Chris Holdsworth. ### **Far Arm Bar** After establishing the frame on the trapped arm, your attacks will vary depending on your opponent's free arm position. If they have kept an inside bicep tie with their free arm or kept it on your chest, which is usually a good defence, and then chooses to drive back into you to square their hips, it will set up an opportunity to attack with a far armbar. As the frame will ensure that you keep your angle even though they are driving back towards you. Even if you only have some angle remaining and they look to bring their hand back toward the inside space, you may still have a chance to attack with the far armbar. If they then elect to pull away, it opens up the opportunity to attack with triangle chokes and omoplatas, which we will take a look at next. ### **Triangle Choke** If the opponent has placed their far arm outside of the frame or onto the mat, you can look to attack with the triangle choke by bringing your knee underneath their arm and kicking over for the triangle. Once you have your far knee underneath their arm, you can release the framing arm while still holding the shoulder pin as if they choose to drive back into the frame; it works to their disadvantage. That allows you to use your free arm to flight their grip and help manipulate the wrist to secure the triangle. The first lock you get on the triangle might be a reverse triangle, so you can look to finish that using a reverse triangle technique, or you can switch the legs over and bring the arm across for a regular triangle. Alternately kimura attacks are available on the opponent's arm if they keep it on one side of their body. Next up, we will look at Omoplata setups from the same position. ### **Omoplata** Once you have established the frame on the trapped arm, you can seek to either attack the Omoplata proactively or reactively. Proactively will be where you initiate the Omoplata by using one of your free hands to reach up and grab your leg to pull down over the head of your opponent into an Omoplata position. Ideally, you reach under your leg for your grip so you can maintain the maximum amount of knee pressure on their shoulder the whole time during the transition. Alternatively, if your opponent pulls away from the frame, you will be able to transition into the Omoplata reactively. The Omoplata is the highest percentage attack from the Williams Guard / Shoulder pin, but like most Omoplata attacks, it still becomes more prone to end in a sweep rather than a submission. But if I get a sweep from the guard, I still consider the improvement in position successful, especially for a mixed martial arts situation. Next, I will finish this look at the Williams Guard by examining how to deal with the most common counters, notably the pinwheel or cartwheel pass. ### Williams Guard **Counters** As with any guard, the Williams / Shoulderpin guard is susceptible to counters. It was initially in the [10th Planet system](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brandon-mccaghren-interview-10th-planet/ "Brandon Mccaghren on Restrictions & Wilderness in 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu") where it was called "London" but was removed by Eddie Bravo after he decided that the pinwheel/cartwheel pass counter to the guard was too powerful. The pinwheel pas is where you rotate around and step over the opponents head-on the trapped arm side, and as both of the guarders hands are used in the frame, they cannot stop the pass. Shawn Williams counters this by immediately transitioning into a deep low single leg as the opponent steps over your head. I would still consider this an upgrade in position going from guard into a deep single-leg, especially in MMA. From there, you have multiple options to finish the single, which you should become proficient at completing. Another way to prevent this is to anticipate it and switch to the omoplata as they begin to step around. You can then face the back of your palm towards the opponent's hips which will let you use their momentum and leverage to lift you into top position. As with all guards, the stack is another counter that can prevent you from establishing your frame. To deal with this, you can look to switch the side you attack the opponent. In the meantime, check out the work of [Shawn Williams](https://shawnwilliamsbjj.tv/ "https://shawnwilliamsbjj.tv/") and [Neil Melanson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Melanson "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Melanson"), who go in-depth on this guard with their Instructionals on BJJ Fanatics. That concludes the Breakdown series on the Williams / Shoulder Pin Guard. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Videos --- ### [Grappling Playlists for BJJ, MMA & Wrestling Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/grappling-playlists-bjj-mma-wrestling-training/) **Published:** April 7, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** A selection of genre-specific grappling playlists for striking & strangling during your bjj, wrestling or mma training workouts. All put into spotify playlists! ## 80's Montage Metal Ready to go over the top, win the day, prove them all wrong and that you are the best around? Then the 80's montage metal playlist is for you. With all the upbeat tracks from 80's action and martial arts movie to help you triumph over any struggle. Give your training that extra boost and imagine being in your own movie montage scene. ### Outlaw Country Had a long weekend at the bar, in your pickup truck driving down the highway or hopping from train to train then put this playlist on to soothe your soul while you roll. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Creativity --- ### [Beginners Guide to Uniform Policies in Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-uniform-policies/) **Published:** March 20, 2025 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/uniform_policy-1024x576.webp "uniform_policy") From strict dress codes to freedom of choice, uniforms touch on issues of tradition, control, accessibility, and identity. Some see uniform policies as essential for preserving tradition and creating community. In contrast, others view them as financial barriers, tools of control, or even cult-like practices that limit personal expression. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Schools must balance practical concerns like safety and hygiene with questions of cost, cultural sensitivity, and individual expression. A uniform may represent community values or hide profit motives that push martial arts beyond the reach of some students. But what happens when these conflicting perspectives clash? ## **Understanding Martial Arts Uniform Traditions** ### **The Historical Origins of Martial Arts Uniforms** Martial arts uniforms have deep historical roots. Most uniform traditions originate from Japanese martial practices, which eventually spread throughout various disciplines. The gi (uniform) common in jiu-jitsu, judo, and karate derives from traditional Japanese clothing that was later formalised into a standardised training outfit. Many historians think that the strict rules we see today grew with the military use of martial arts in Japan. Before this change, people in places like Okinawa (where karate began) and rural Chinese villages (where many kung fu styles started) often trained in normal clothes without strict rules. ### **From Military Discipline to Modern Practice** What started as a practical approach to training eventually transformed into a symbol of discipline and order. The uniform became a visual representation of martial arts values: - **Equality**: Everyone wears the same outfit no matter their social status. - **Focus**: Takes away the problem of fashion contests. - **Respect**: Shows duty to tradition and school values. - **Discipline**: Keeping a clean, proper uniform needs care. - **Community**: Makes a clear team look and feel. ## **The Spectrum of Uniform Policies** ![The Spectrum of Uniform Policies](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bjj_uniform_policy_spectrum-1024x674.jpg "bjj_uniform_policy_spectrum › Sonny Brown")Not all martial arts schools maintain the same approach to uniforms. There exists a spectrum of policies ranging from extremely strict to completely relaxed. Even if it is completely relaxed, specific safety or hygiene policies should still be implemented. ### **Four Common Uniform Approaches** 1. **Fully Regulated**: Students must purchase and wear only the school's official uniform with proper patches and colours. No exceptions or alternatives permitted. 2. **Colour Regulated**: Students must wear a specific colour (usually white, black, or blue) but may purchase any brand they prefer. School patches are typically required. 3. **Patch Regulated**: Students may wear any colour or brand of uniform but must display school patches showing team affiliation. 4. **Open Policy**: No specific requirements beyond functional training attire appropriate for the style being practised. ### **Practical Benefits of Uniform Policies** A uniform policy provides several practical advantages for martial arts schools: - Creates immediate visual recognition of the school's community. - Simplifies decisions for new students who might not know what to wear. - Eliminates potential social divisions based on clothing brands or prices. - Fosters a sense of belonging and team spirit. ## **When Uniform Policies Create Tension** ### **The Inclusivity Paradox** While uniforms try to create unity, very strict rules can sometimes make problems: - **Money issues**: Asking for costly, school-only uniforms can stop some people from training. - **Personal style**: Some students feel held back by strict uniform rules. - **Culture clashes**: Some people do not like the military feel of rigid uniform rules. - **Body fit problems**: Not all body shapes fit standard uniform cuts well. ### **Finding the Balance** Smart school owners recognise the need for balance: 1. Tell students about uniform rules clearly before they join. 2. Make fair changes for special cases. 3. Plan some "free days" or "mufti days" when uniform rules are relaxed. 4. Care more about safety and use than perfect looks. 5. Make sure uniform rules match the school's main values. ## **Uniform Rules That Matter** ### **Safety First: Non-Negotiable Rules** No matter how strict or relaxed a school's uniform rules might be, some rules must stay in place for safety: - **No jewellery**: Rings, necklaces, earrings, and watches can hurt people. - **No pockets**: in shorts or trousers (mainly in grappling arts) to stop fingers getting caught. - **No zippers**: that might scratch or cut training partners. - **No tears or loose threads**: that could trap fingers or toes. - **No special shoes**: unless needed for health reasons (wrestling boots can cause more knee injuries in some arts). ### **Hygiene Considerations** Beyond safety, hygiene rules related to uniforms help maintain a healthy training environment: - Wash uniforms after each training session. - Replace very stained or discoloured uniforms. - Dry properly (do not tumble dry as it harms the cloth). - Do not train in street clothes that bring dirt onto mats. ## **Finding Your Personal Style Within Constraints** ### **Expression Through Customisation** Even with strict uniform rules, students often find ways to show their own style: - Custom-fitted uniforms that suit different body types and fighting styles. - Small changes that follow rules but feel personal. - Picking uniform weight and cut to match how you like to fight. - Pride in wearing worn uniforms that show years of practice. ### **The Technical Advantages** Uniform choices can change how well you fight: - Tighter gi cuts make it harder for others to grab you in grappling arts. - Looser sleeves let you do some choke moves better. - Thick or thin cloth changes how fast you move and how you control others. - How your uniform fits can help or limit how your students move in fights or competitions. ## **Balancing Tradition with Modern Sensibilities** ### **The School Owner's Perspective** For martial arts school owners, uniform rules form a big business and values choice: - Uniforms help create a brand look and public image. - Rules must match the school's main values and teaching style. - Finding the right mix keeps students happy and coming back. - Good uniform rules can make a school stand out from others. ### **When Uniforms Feel Like a Cash Grab** A common concern among students centres on uniform policies that seem to exist mainly for profit: - Many schools require buying only their branded uniforms at marked-up prices, with franchise and affiliation heads often making the bulk of profit on these sales. - Your local coach might have little say in these policies or see minimal profit from uniform sales. - Students feel trapped when forced to replace perfectly good uniforms because of rule changes or when required patches and specific models double or triple basic costs. - This approach can make martial arts less open to people with limited budgets, creating an unnecessary barrier to training. ### **A Better Business Approach** School owners thinking of uniforms as an easy income source should consider these points: - If you use uniform sales as your main profit centre, you're likely neglecting more vital business areas like marketing, onboarding systems, and structured programs for member retention. - Focus first on bringing in new students and creating systems that make beginners feel welcome with proper follow-ups on their progress. - Make sure your uniform policy matches your gym's core values and brand promise; students will notice when your actions don't align with your stated values. - You risk losing members if your uniform rules create barriers that clash with your school or member values. - The most successful schools see uniforms as part of the training system, not as merchandise. ### **Innovation Within Tradition** The best schools often find ways to keep respect for old ways while fitting modern needs: - Giving many choices of approved uniforms at different prices. - Making special "strict uniform days" mixed with more casual "mufti" days. - Caring more about the values behind the uniform than just following rules. - Using uniform rules to teach about respect and tradition. ## **Practical Advice for STUDENTS** ### **Choosing Your School Wisely** If uniform rules matter to you as a student, think about these things when picking a school: 1. Ask about uniform rules before joining. 2. Learn why they have these rules. 3. See if the school's way of thinking matches yours. 4. Work out how much money you will need to spend on uniforms. 5. Watch how strictly they keep to the rules during a trial class. ### **Making the Most of Your Uniform** After you join a school, try these tips for uniform success: - Buy good uniforms that will last longer and work better. - Learn how to care for them to make them last. - Know how different cuts and styles help your training. - Value what uniforms mean in tradition. - Find good ways to make it your own while following rules. ## Do Uniforms Lead to a **Cult or Community?** Uniform rules in martial arts show how tradition, usefulness, identity, and community values come together. While strict regulations foster team spirit and focus, allowing people to express their personal style within fair limits also matters. The best schools know uniforms work for many reasons: safety, treating everyone the same, keeping traditions, and building community. By clearly communicating their expectations to students while remaining open to personal needs, martial arts schools can preserve traditional values while creating inclusive environments. Knowing why these rules exist helps you make better choices about where and how you train, whether you like strict uniform rules or more freedom in what you wear. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts **Tags:** dojo rules, gi uniform, martial arts culture, martial arts dress code, martial arts etiquette, martial arts safety, martial arts traditions, martial arts uniforms, uniform policy --- ### [Matt Lindland Interview On Wrestling Between Risk-Taking & Risk-Aversion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-lindland-interview-coaching-risk-wrestling/) **Published:** May 27, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Coach Matt Lindland](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/coach_matt_lindland-1024x576.jpg "Coach Matt Lindland › Sonny Brown")I talk to Matt Lindland, the head coach of the USA Greco Roman wrestling team, Olympic silver medalist & MMA Pioneer. We discuss his experience coaching wrestlers from a folkstyle background and how to alter their risk-taking intuitions to suit Greco roman. How coaches can simplify their coaching to help their athletes learn more and a lot faster How failure and questioning athletes can help them learn, his time coaching BJ Penn for his MMA fight against GSP and what BJJ can learn from wrestling. #### Listen to The Matt Lindland Interview Here: **Listen to the episode:** - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wrestling-between-risk-taking-risk-aversion-with-coach/id1476963733?i=1000475920580) - [Spotify ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/41cj7UIFmTleDJIVgGE0nh?si=4b56e6038f9f4578) ## YouTube ## Topics ### Risk, reward and the Greco mindset Lindland explains that international wrestling rewards big risks with big points, while American folkstyle punishes even small mistakes. New Greco converts, therefore, arrive hard-wired to avoid danger. His solution involves repeated exposure to short, high-stakes drills, making throwing and lifting feel normal. The aim is to shift intuition: athletes must sense that the quickest route to victory is through intelligent risk, not around it. ### Positive hip angles and control ties For Lindland a match is won in moments when one wrestler’s hips face the opponent and the opponent’s do not. Only two routes exist: move your feet or move the other man. Underhooks and two-on-ones are the keys that open those angles because they let you steer without surrendering posture. Once an angle is earned he expects athletes to strike fast – angles alone never score, they merely create windows for points. ### Coaching through guided failure Great coaches, he says, create environments where athletes fail safely and often. Instead of prescribing step-by-step solutions he asks questions that push wrestlers to diagnose errors, redesign attempts and try again. This pattern converts conscious problem-solving into instinctive skill and teaches competitors to treat risk as a training partner rather than an enemy. ### Energy management in combat sports Whether in a six-minute Greco bout or a twenty-five-minute MMA title fight, victory belongs to the athlete who expends less energy than the opponent while imposing more pressure. Lindland urges wrestlers to relax inside their control positions, force rivals to tense up, then surge at precisely chosen moments. He sums it up as: minimise your own output, maximise theirs, attack as efficiently as possible. ### Building a national pipeline The United States produces thousands of college folkstyle stand-outs, yet few transition early enough to peak in Greco. Lindland focuses on recruiting younger athletes and, critically, educating local coaches so each one can develop dozens of wrestlers rather than waiting for a single prodigy. He argues that culture beats talent: consistent tournaments, shared goals and risk-positive coaching norms are the real engines of long-term success. ## Resources #### Quotes - “Risk is critical to success – if you never take it, you never learn how to succeed.” - “A control position is simple: I can score and my opponent cannot.” - “Angles do not score – angles lead to scores, so act the instant you earn one.” - “There are only two ways to get to a positive hip angle: move him or move you.” - “Failure is not the opposite of victory – it is the tuition you pay for intuition.” #### Links - [Matt Lindland Instagram](https://instagram.com/mattlindland) - [USA Wrestling Greco-Roman Program](https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Greco-Roman) - [*Dirty Boxing for Mixed Martial Arts* by Matt Lindland and Erich Krauss](https://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Boxing-Mixed-Martial-Arts/dp/0977731551) - [National Wrestling Coaches Association](https://www.nwcaonline.com/) ## Matt Lindland Interview Transcript **Sonny Brown:** Welcome to episode number 11 of The Sonny Brown Breakdown, a podcast where we discuss the training, teaching, health, and education of mixed martial arts to help you find the difference that makes the difference. I am your host Sonny Brown. In this episode, I talk to Matt Lindland, the head coach of the USA Greco-Roman wrestling team and an MMA pioneer. We discuss his experience coaching wrestlers from a folkstyle background and how to alter their risk-taking intuitions to suit Greco-Roman, how failure and questioning athletes can help them learn, and his time coaching B.J. Penn for his MMA fight against GSP. Now let's go to the podcast. Coach Matt Lindland. How are you today, Matt? **Matt Lindland:** I'm doing great, Sonny. Good to have you on the call here. **Sonny:** It's excellent. I'm very excited to be talking to you. I'm actually a bit of a fan of your work. Let me just show here your dirty boxing book. I think is one of the best mixed martial arts book- **Matt:** Oh, well, thank you. **Sonny:** -out there. Maybe underrated, but I think it's one of the most comprehensive books written on wrestling and especially wrestling for MMA. I just want to give you credit and props for that. It's actually the first time I've got to speak to someone who I've done a video breakdown on as well. **Matt:** Oh, that's great. I found your video breakdown. I think it popped up in my recommended videos or something. I may have done it because I watched Randy's dirty boxing one or something and then it suggested that. I don't even know how I found your YouTube channel, but I love the breakdowns and I've definitely gone through and watch a few other ones and I'm sure there's some more I need to watch. Very good editing. I really appreciated the editing. I'm starting to, especially with this COVID thing going on, trying to do more remote coaching. I've been doing some FaceTime coaching whereI''m like, "Set your camera. Okay, I could see you. Oh wait, you went out of screen. Get back off there." Working on technique with some of my national team athletes, but definitely trying to-- I had a bunch of video on my computer. I was like, "Oh, let's film that. That's really good." I dumped all this video off my computer, put it on the hard drives and I started dragging them back and figuring out how to edit. What do they call it on the Max? The iMovie, that's the basic one. I'm just a novice, so I'm doing what I can. **Sonny:** That's fine. You got to start somewhere. I tell you, video editing is one of those things that before I did it, I would definitely not have been able to appreciate how difficult it would be. It would be one of those things where I'd say, "Oh, it can't take that long." Then I actually get started, I'm like, "Oh, there's a lot more to this." Maybe we can get into some of those lessons in wrestling. Just before we do it, I just want to ask, how close did I get? Was I on the target? Was I in the ball range for what I was saying? **Matt:** I thought you even picked up a few things I didn't even recognize that I did with the footwork. There's a lot of footwork involved. There's some other stuff that's just very intuitive from wrestling, from doing Greco-Roman wrestling and fighting. It is like I am southpaw in the sense that everything I do that's gross motor is left. If I'm going to write or brush my teeth, that's right-handed, but basically, that's it. Everything else is left-handed. It was a little awkward transitioning from wrestling and everyone was trying to get me to throw right hands. It's like, "You write with your right hand." I'm like, "Yes, but I swing a bat left, I play hockey left." I don't play golf, but if I did, it would be left \[chuckles\] . **Sonny:** Oh, I thank you, as well \[chuckles\] . Interesting that you mentioned that it was mainly intuition that a lot of things are picking up because as I am speaking to different coaches, the fact that a lot of this stuff does get tore into intuition or built into the people's intuition, I think is a very interesting area to explore. I'm wondering your current role now, you're the head coach of the Greco-Roman wrestling team for USA wrestling, working out of the Olympic Training Center. I'm wondering if there's any lessons from that that you've taken or that informs how you're coaching those guys or just, give us a general overview of your role and how you do coach there. **Matt:** That's a broad question. The first part, let's take the general overview of my role. My role is to manage the Greco-Roman wrestling in the United States. In the United States, folkstyle wrestling are what you see at the NCAA, the colleges. It's competed in high school, it's competed in division one, division two, three, all that. If you wrestle in the United States, you're probably a folkstyle wrestler. Greco Roman is a very small subset, but for the rest of the world, especially you go to Eastern Europe, it's like, that's it, you wrestle Greco. There's many countries, they don't even have freestyle. They have [wrestling and it's the classic style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ruadhan-macfadden-history-folk-wrestling/) of Greco-Roman wrestling. It's a very European sport. I noticed that even in Australia, you guys do a lot of folkstyle more than even freestyle. I thought that was a little peculiar to me, but yes, I manage age groups starting it at U15, U17, U20, U23, and senior, which is our Olympic athletes. Many of our U20 and U23 athletes are some of our best senior athletes as well because that's right when you should be peaking in athletics and in their sporting career. It's in mid to late 20s, but some guys are starting to do it early 20s. We saw Nazaryan's son, just won Europeans at 18 this year, just won the European Championships in Greco-Roman at 55 kilos. The age keeps dropping for the world. We saw in London, I think the average age was about 27. In one quarter, it dropped to 23. I'm trying to attract a lot younger athletes. The traditional model has been like, let these guys go to wrestling college like the Penn States, Ohios, and our Oklahoma, all the college programs that people heard about and talk about throughout the sport of wrestling. What I'm starting to notice is guys are peaking a lot younger. Maybe they missed their peak and it already happened in college, which is really the amateur side of the sport, the college wrestling, but it's very popular in the United States. Everybody's looking to do that because it's like, "Oh, you got to get a degree." That's a whole nother topic of conversation there but just trying to get athletes engaged at a lot younger stage, get them involved in Greco-Roman wrestling. That requires developing a lot more coaches because if you just try to pick one athlete at a time, you're like, "Hey, you're a great athlete, team wrestle Greco," versus, "You're a really good coach, maybe you could develop 30 guys." A lot of it is investing into our coaches throughout the country, going to different regions of the country. I travel all over the United States and all over the world, but for the United States, going to a coach that already has a program, he's already developing athletes in the Olympic styles, whether it's freestyle or Greco-Roman, understands the philosophy of folkstyle wrestling and international style are completely different. They're almost opposites to tell you the truth. International wrestling is all about risk. The greater the risk, the greater the reward. College wrestling in the United States is all about "don't take risk" because you could give up a point. It's like what we're doing now with this whole COVID. We know that there's a risk, there's an inherent risk if I get in my car and jump on the freeway, somebody could be drinking and driving, slam into me, kill me, my family, and whatever, but I still am willing to take that risk to get on the freeway, to get to where I'm going. It's the same thing with this COVID. It's like, yes, there's a great risk, but we know what the risk is. Either you're willing to take it or you're not. Risk is critical to success. If you don't take risk, if you don't attempt to fail, you're never going to learn how to succeed. It's taking that philosophy and trying to turn it upside down for the United States because it really is ingrained in our culture of "don't take risk". The whole sport of wrestling internationally is all about risk and reward. The more risk you take, the more the points you're going to get against your opponent. That's the short answer of what my role is. Obviously, within that is preparing our number ones or even our national team one, two, three, any weight categories. There's 10 weight categories in wrestling for the world's, there's only six weight categories in the Olympics. We've got to pare that down, squish everybody into those six weight classes and get them peaked and timing and preparation and training. There seems to be a lot that goes into it for some reason. Does that answer the first question? I think you had a second part in there. **Sonny:** That's a good roundup. I think the second part was probably just getting more into the coaching specifics, which I definitely want to do. First thing is just with the wrestling in Australia. It is still mainly freestyle. Wrestling is still very small here, but it is still freestyle-dominated. I know you're aware of the Wrestling Foundation who I coach for with my coach, Gary Jones. He's friends with I think a mutual friend with you, Rica Dante. We're really trying to get it going out here, just to try and get the folks to our wrestling programs happening and then trying to make it happen as much as we can. Maybe we can talk about that a bit more because you have actually founded a lot of kids' wrestling programs, I believe. **Matt:** I have. I've run quite a few kids' wrestling programs. Throughout my career as an athlete, you're trying to figure out, what can I do that fits into my training schedule? As you're an athlete, you're like, "I need to work because I've got to bring in income. Maybe I'm not at the level I want to be right now, but I'm taking that risk and I'm going to invest my time and my efforts and my energy into pursuing this goal of not just getting to the Olympics, but hopefully getting on the podium at the Olympics." It takes a huge commitment and a lot of sacrifice and time and energy and efforts. To do that, you've got to travel all over the world to compete and train. I was always looking for opportunities to share my knowledge with other people. I have a different philosophy than others. As you've heard, I already feel like we need to focus on more international styles to become the best in the world. We're the best in the world at folkstyle, but we're the only country that does that \[chuckles\] . We're also the best at NBA and major league baseball. We can just make up our own sports and become the best at it. That's an American thing and the rest of the world doesn't do that. **Sonny:** We're the best at Australian rules football. \[laughter\] **Matt:** I guess you're right, that is true \[chuckles\] . Touche. **Sonny:** When you're working with the athletes that you've got at the Olympic Training Center, they've come through folkstyle [wrestling program and you have to change their mindset](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-abstract-thinking-wrestling/) on risk, what's the process there? How do you go through that? **Matt:** That's a very good question. We recently had an athlete that had some success, was a world silver medalist at the 100-kilo weight category in Budapest in 2018. The World Championships, Adam Coon. He was a very successful folkstyle wrestler. He was a national champion, three, four-time All-American for them. Not only that, he's a rocket engineer. The guy graduated-- **Sonny:** Astrophysics or something like that, something crazy. **Matt:** He's insanely smart. Guys that are that smart, it's so hard because it's like, "Well, if I do this, this could happen and this could happen." He's analyzing every situation. You almost need dummies to wrestle sometimes. These guys that are super smart and can out-think everything, logically, this doesn't make sense. What we do to our bodies doesn't make sense. Adam, look at you. You're going to land-- Throw another man that's 130-kilo and he could land on top of you. That's a real risk, but to score and to win this fight, you have to take those kind of risks. It's really just breaking it down trying to explain the differences in philosophies, putting athletes into the positions to where they can score points. How do I change that philosophy? It's challenging, I'll tell you. It really is. That's why I would like to see more guys have experience. Adam did have a lot of experience as a youth wrestler in Greco-Roman and frestyle. He kind of did everything. He just loved to be on the mat, train, compete. I don't think his goal at that time was to be an Olympic champion, I think it was to be an NCAA champion. Once he accomplished that and college was over, now he had to refocus and say, "Well, this is my new goal and this is how I'm going to approach this." With that, you're just trying to guide these guys into different situations, give them opportunities, create the right environments, bring in multiple training partners. Recently, we had a camp up in his wrestling room, in his hometown. I brought the Chilean heavyweight, I brought the Norwegian heavyweight, and then I brought him and Cohlton Schultz and Jacob Mitchell. We had a pretty good group of big, heavyweight men in the room and I was training with those guys. What I realized that it's a different sport. Heavyweight's a different sport and there's no easy landings when you're training with these big, big giant men that are 130-something kilos. Everything you do hurts when you do it with them. You've got a guy that's around my size. I'm about 100 now, but when I was 85 kilos or something, it didn't hurt as much when having a guy your weight land on you, even though you were the same weight. I look at these guys there and I'm like, "Well, you're the same weight. It shouldn't hurt as much," but it does. That size matters. The techniques need to be a little crisper. They just have to execute and they have to fully commit to those risky positions. It's about creating those environments. Bringing the right athletes together and putting them in those situations and letting them fail and then coming to you and going, "Why did that fail?" Then you ask a bunch of questions to them and see if they can figure it out. A smart as a guy like Adam Coon is, he asked a lot of questions. I think that's why he's probably such a smart guy, he just asked a lot of questions. I always try to flip it back to him and be like, "Well, what do you think? What is your reason?" He'll come up with his thoughts or whatever. It's like, "Okay, I'll share whatever the situation is, how I could think you could adjust or make an adjustment in that area." We'll try it and if it works, then I start building that trust. I can believe him here because he showed me something. That allows me to show more and share more with these athletes. Coaching, as you know, you're a coach, it all comes down to building that trust with these guys. It takes that back-and-forth communication, this dialogue of it's not just, "Here's what I do and here's how I can pour this into you," because you and I do not think alike, we don't have the same body, we don't react the same way. You're 6'2, I'm 6-foot. I'm 100-kilo, you're 130." There's just all these different-- You see coaches that are like, "This is how I do it," and they try to show what they do. "This is what I do." Yes, but we're on the opposite sides of the bookends here in weight categories. Maybe for me, I could try this. I've been coached like that and I've been coached the other way. I look at wrestling as a true art form. It's a martial art. It's an art form. You develop the guy's basic fundamental decisions. It's like if their mechanics are flawed, if their body positions are flawed, you want to fix that quick, you want to make that adjustment. Head up, hips in, butt down, lower your level, don't hinge at the waist. That's so much different than what we see in freestyle and folkstyle is there's a lot of hinging and you're getting the weight pushed onto your toes and you're getting snapped down to your face and you're falling. In Greco, it's a much more upright posture where you're getting your hips underneath you so you can drive your legs through your opponent. You're not just pushing into him, you're trying to drive through your opponent to attack that body. In Greco-Roman wrestling, I don't know if we're on video, but there's only about six inches of space. There's six inches here where you have to get to that body. If you're up here underneath their chest and you're trying to lock, the guys are loosey-goosey, but if you can get to those hips. I've taught a lot of freestyle and I've taught a lot of folkstyle. When I talk about attacking a single leg, I'd much rather be closer to the hip than closer to the knee. The closer I can get to the hip, I have more control. Even though it's a single leg, we're looking at a single-leg technique, it's like I'd rather grab right next to your hip socket than closer to your knee. Somebody that's rustled and put the time in there. You visualize that and you look at that and you're like, yes, that makes more sense, but why are guys grabbing at the knee or below the knee? Low singles are a whole nother philosophy and technical area, but controlling that hip and-- Greco-Roman wrestling really has two what I call control positions. The definition that I use for control position is I can score and my opponent can't. Everyone's like, "How is that possible?" Well, it's only possible for a moment at the time, but you just got to add those moments up. The more times I'm in a control position is the last time that he can score on me and I'm creating an opportunity to where I can score on my opponent. Those two control positions are an under-hook and a 2-on-1. Those are the areas that I talked about a lot and how are we're going to use those two areas to get to that body, to control the body, capture our opponents so we can score. **Sonny:** Yes. Okay. That's interesting the way you talked about that with having to make the athletes experience their own failure and come to the conclusion on their own so they can learn from that process as opposed to just telling them, "Hey, do this technique," and expecting them to pick it up like that because that's-- A lot of the conversations I've been having lately is focused on that area, but it's like how much easier just telling someone what to do is, but how much longer that would actually take them to learn the skill. With your experience then coaching coaches, as you were saying, you're going out, how do you impress on them the way to take that view into coaching? **Matt:** That's interesting because-- What I was thinking, the problem usually starts with the coaches. We're talking about these coaches that are like-- but it's not all the coaches, it's just the majority maybe, that this is how you do it. Put your hand here, put your foot here. Look, it's that simple, but it's not that simple because wrestling's so dynamic. You're going against somebody that doesn't want you to do that to him. The fear of failure is so real to young athletes that you need to tell coaches, let these guys fail. Put them in those situations, encourage failure. It's like, I clap. Yes, you failed. Okay, now what are you going to do differently? How are you going to make an adjustment? What is that going to look like? Show me. Don't tell me, "Just go," you failed again. Okay? Now you've figured out two ways not to do this. Well, let's if we can get it right the third and the fifth or whatever it takes. To the coaches, it would be encouraging that experimentation and failure. Well, let's use an arm drag for an example. I want to grab the guy's arm, reach around his body, control his body and it's like, here's how you do it. Well, your opponent also has a saying in that, and as you're attempting that technique, you're taking that arm, you're dragging to the guy's body and he backs away or he squares up or he moves his feet, you got to start anticipating those reactions and build those reactions into the techniques because it's not a static sport. It's so dynamic that you've created these situations where this arm drag could be to the body. If he takes his hips back, well, now he's leaving his head down. Now I'm going to attack his head because he took his hips away. Well, that means if he took his hips away, he has to bend over. That means is his head's available. Well, if I attack his head, he pulls his head up, well great, that that opens up his body. You can't get that tunnel vision where you're like, "This is the move I want" and it's like that's the action that created the scoring opportunity. Whether I scored with that drag or he squared up and I hit him with an arm throw or he squared up, I ducked him to the body, you've just put yourself in this situation to where all kinds of great things can happen, but they only can happen because you made an action that created that situation. Maybe that drag didn't work. Okay. I didn't need the drag. I'll take is his head. He puts his head down, I'll snap him down and go mind or I'll strangle them out if it was Jiu-Jitsu or whatever because there's a lot of parallels with coaching Jiu-Jitsu and coaching wrestling. To me, wrestling with a Gi on, it really is. There are some intricacies like you can't take locks against the arm in Greco-Roman, but you can in Jiu-Jitsu but it really comes down to getting to your controls and getting to an angle of attack position. When I talked about an angle of attack, do you know what I'm referring to? **Sonny:** I think so but maybe it would be good to explain it to everyone. **Matt:** I would say the simplest way to describe it would be my hips are facing my opponents and his hips are not facing me. They are facing away from me, so positive hip angles, we're always fighting for that. In boxing and wrestling and in any combat sport, you're fighting for this positive angle. I'd be in a southpaw and fighting a lot of orthodox fighters. It's always getting outside that lead leg and then making a pivot so I'm in a positive hip position. Well, that's only going to last until he squares up. From there, I've got to land out one or two strikes or make that arm drag attempt or hit that attack, whatever that attack is and whatever discipline we're referring to. It's about getting to a control position. When you're in a control position, remember I said a control position has to have the part where I can score and he can't. If I'm not on a positive hip angle and his hips are facing me, if he clears that control in a split second, he has an opportunity to score. If I'm constantly staying on angle and whether that's right, left, moving my feet, but if I take a positive hip angle and my opponent takes that away from me, I just have to create a new one. Whether I go the opposite way or the same way, I increase, I doubled down on the direction I was going or he squared up so hard and it's a shorter route to go the other direction. You're looking for those different routes to get to those positive hip angles and owning an under-hook or owning a 2-on-1 allows you because there are two ways to get to a positive hip angle. Are you aware of those two ways? There's only two. I teach a clinic sometimes, "There's how many ways?" and they're like, "There are a million ways." I'm like, "No, you're an idiot, there's two." \[chuckles\] I'm like, "If there are a million, name three," Name three. You go to a clinic and you're like, "There are so many ways to get to an angle." It's like, "Okay, if there are so many, name three." I can only think of two, but I'm always eager to learn. If somebody's got something to share, I want to learn what's another way to get to a positive hip angle. In theory, there's only two. **Sonny:** That would be I guess you take a step or your opponent's steps, right? **Matt:** Move him, move you. It's that simple. Move my feet to get to my angle or move him, keep my feet static, move him. Now I could do those in combination. I can move him and move myself and maybe get to a more of an acute angle which is harder to recover from. I typically try to move my opponent as I move myself into a positive hip angle. That's what I would encourage my athletes to do as well but to anticipate the reactions. If I'm moving into a positive hip angle, he knows. His hips are not facing me. He cannot score. He's going to square up as soon as he can. He does not want to stay in that deficient situation where he can be attacked and he can't counter attack or he can't even create offense. They're going to constantly be squaring up with you. You've got to constantly be making those adjustments. When you get to those angles of attack, you have to take risk. You can't look at that and go, "That was, I got there." You don't score, angles don't score, angles just lead to scores. Teaching coaches to simplify things more, it's not like I don't care how much you know, what matters is how much you can relay into your athlete, how much you can get him to understand. Maybe I know a million different moves, but just showing move after move and after move with no context and not understanding the position. I think the first thing to get coaches to understand is just how critical, fundamental positions are. I think we've gotten away from the basic skills of wrestling which stance, motion, elevation, penetration, lift, back step, back arch. I've always said there's an eighth basic skill and it's much more applicable in Jiu-Jitsu and folkstyle because there's a lot more ground fighting, which is the hip heist, but all the other basic skills are more standing skills, stance, motion, elevation, penetration, lift. The two that get left out a lot and because I don't know why, I think maybe it's a lack of knowledge, probably more than anything but a back step and a back arch. Those are the two areas where you can create the most scores. A takedown is great. When I get on top, and then I can lock up my gut wrench and maybe turn the guy for two, or I could lift him for four. I'd rather lift a guy for four. Same thing with the takedown, I'd rather expose his back and get four points, which requires greater risk. Hence the back step and the back arch being the two skills that I feel are most efficient, at least in American wrestling system, not in the Asian system. You look at Koreans and the Japanese and back step, everything's an arm throw, a headlock, a hip toss, a lot of rotational turning throws, which puts you for that split second, you've given your opponent a positive hip angle. When you are facing your opponent and you turn your body away from your opponent to execute that technique, you've given him an opportunity. Well, hopefully, he's pushing in a little bit because you've created that. You take his feet off the mat and you score your four points. You look at that same scenario in a folkstyle situation. If that doesn't score, it's not rewarded as a risk because, in international styles, you slip, there's no score because you made the attempt. Your opponent didn't stop it. You didn't execute but you made a risk, you took the attempt, so you're going to get rewarded for that. In college wrestling, you get penalized for that. It's quite heavily penalized because not only do you end up on bottom, he scores points, now you're underneath your opponent, and your lines of defense are facing the mat, they're not facing your opponent. I think that in a nutshell is where I started out saying, guys don't take risks because in folkstyle they're punished for it and in international style, they're rewarded for it. It's like, "Okay, get back on your feet. No scores. Try it again. We want to see action. We want to see creativity. We want to see scores. We're trying to entertain crowds." I'm not entertained watching some guy lay on top of the other guy and try to hold him onto the mat and maybe turn them for two or writing time. That's not fun. **Sonny:** I hear you. I've liked a lot of what you said there really. I think maybe one of the takeaways I got from that is, let's say you've created that hip angle with the athletes and the moment that they might have that angle of attack is so brief that they can't think about it logically, it just has to be intuition that they'll know how to respond in that moment. The folkstyle wrestlers that you're getting, they've trained their intuition to be risk-averse. When you come to Greco, that's the process where you've got to retrain that intuition to be more risk-taking. Is that a good summary? **Matt:** I think you summarised that very well. Maybe I should just have had you share that because I was a little long-winded. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I learned that from you, so there you go. \[laughs\] I really like the way that's looking at it because coming-- **Matt:** That goes back to my philosophy of coaching, is take a very complex problem and simplify it. That's what you did. To me, that's a sign of somebody that has spent a lot of time coaching in the coaching field, that says, "This is a very complex problem. All these different things are going on at the same time simultaneously. How do I simplify this and break it down to its just course situation?" That's what I'm talking about 2-on-1 and under-hook, there's two controls. There's two ways to get to a positive hip angle. There's not a million ways. There's a million attacks, maybe from those angles, but let's focus on just getting our guys in proper position and getting them to move their feet into those positive hip angles, and then the magic happens when they start taking risk. You got to put them in those scenarios over and over and over, whether it's drilling, or sparring, or playing. However, what modality you're using to coach that day, you got to encourage that. You're going to have a lot more failures than you are successes. You've got to have a short memory with the failures and be like, "All right, that didn't really happen. Let me try this again." Just keep going over and over and over until it's like that time you're like, "Okay, that worked. How can I replicate that? What can I add when that doesn't work? What's the next piece I can add to?" It's like that Andre, let's go back to that Andre. I reached around and I didn't get to his body, but he left that arm out here. Maybe I ducked and went to the hips on the second attack. Just continually to build on those attacks. We call that chain wrestling. Have you heard that term? **Sonny:** I have actually. It's interesting because I did have a conversation about that with-- We talk about [catch wrestling and pro wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/). The chain wrestling came up and we're talking about how that's what a lot of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is now doing for Instagram and stuff like that. They film little videos where they put this flow rolling together. That's really chain wrestling. **Matt:** It's all the same. I love the terminology, flow roll. Just that terminology makes me think of so many cool things. I'm in the flow state, I'm enjoying this, I don't have ego. When I think about flow, I don't think about, there's a lot of ego and if I take this risk, oh, it might not work. It's like, that's ego, that's all about hubris and saying, "Well, I don't want to take this risk because I might fail." Who cares if you fail. You're training. That your partner going to go up to the cafeteria after practice and tell everybody how many times he countered your arm drag? Because that shit doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is competition. Are you getting better? Did you get better today? Did you grow? Did you improve? Did you learn something? Those are the lessons that matter. I'd always try to be the worst guy in the room. Whenever I got to that level, where I was one of the best guys in that room, it's like, I need to go find a new training environment or I need to bring guys into my training environment that can challenge me. Maybe I could still beat that guy in this area, but I know I can't-- When I was doing MMA and I just started, I think a lot of guys were like, "Well, I don't want Matt to get ahold of me because he clenches me up, he gets me in an under-hook, or he puts me in a 2-on-1 situation. He knows what to do there. I don't want to stay there. I want to just box." They would naturally assume I didn't want to box with them, I would just want to clench them. It would almost frustrated guys to the point where they were so ready for that clinch game that they had their mind set. It was like, "No, you're a better boxer than me. I'm going to box with you today because I know what I can do when I get my under-hook and my positive hip angle. I already know what I could do there. Let's focus on an area where I'm weak." That's gap. That's not the close gap. There's those ranges of fighting. The first range I would say is where I could push kick or maybe I could throw around house, but I can't connect with you with my strikes. That second range is that where I can punch you or I can clinch you and then there's ultimately that clinch range where the striking really doesn't work because you can't get a whole lot of hip rotation and power, you're tapping guys, but- maybe that was just to open something up. Understanding those ranges of fighting is important too. That's not necessarily in wrestling, because in Greco, it's all this range. It's all that fight range. If you're not willing to put yourself in that range, we'll penalize you. If you don't want to get in that range, where you have to take risk, it's called passivity. It's penalized, in my opinion very harshly. Not only do you just lose a point, the opponent gets a point. Now you go face down on the mat and you have your lines of defenses on the ground and your opponent starts on top of you. Wouldn't every martial artist like to start with the back? For the guys that are jujitsu and maybe not Greco-Roman, they don't know a lot about Greco-Roman, this would be the equivalent to you're watching a grappling match and somebody is not taking risk, which happens all the time in grappling matches. It's like the risk happens on the ground, but on the feet, nobody wants to get the takedown some guys, even pull guard and jump on their back just to get the fight to the ground. Imagine you're not being active enough, you're not taking enough risk. You're passive.The penalty for being passive is the guy gets to start with both hooks in from the back. That's the equivalent to what you're giving a guy that is an expert in Greco-Roman wrestling in the park position. You're giving them a huge advantage. That's an opportunity where you see a lot of matches ended. You see Roman get on top of a guy, two side lifts it's over, or EVEl oofer-- There's so many guys that just have that ability to put a match away as soon as they get a chance on top. **Sonny:** Yes. I get exactly what you're saying. For me, that's why I've enjoyed training folkstyle wrestling more is just with the lack of that party position, just being forced to stand up, I've found more applicable to MMA, and even Brazilian jujitsu. I'm wondering with your transition into MMA, one of the things that I've picked up on is that you're talking about coaching the end of the sequence first, you know, just, hey, we're getting to an underhook letting the athletes fail their way into getting that position to learn the learner intuitively. But it seems like with Brazilian jujitsu, it's very much the opposite where the instructor's going to tell you, this is the start of the technique work their way through. This is a very special technique that was used by this person to win this match. Maybe because of the ranking structure, it's held up in a higher regard. To bring that together, I'm thinking when you've transitioned over to MMA, have you probably used your wrestling style of coaching to inform classes. Whereas some people I notice, especially I've seen up there, it can also be a Brazilian jujitsu style of teaching of MMA as well without doing it, showing the whole technique first. Have you noticed that or is there anything you'd like to comment on between those two? **Matt:** No. I've noticed that. That's what a lot of coaches that maybe they're young in their careers, maybe they have a black belt because they've studied the sport really well. Maybe that's how they were taught, that type of a system. They understand all the holds and they can do an Arm bar and a triangle and a double wrist lock from every position. But when I coach MMA or I coach jujitsu, and when I coach MMA I coach MMA, I coach the whole sport. I don't break it down. For example, I'll give you a really funny story. It was when B.J. Penn was fighting Matt Hughes, and called me up. He was like, "man, I'd really like you to be my wrestling coach for this fight." I was just like, there's not a chance. I do not want to be a wrestling coach for this fight. B.J. I said, right now I'm in between fights and I would be more than willing to train you and prepare you for this fight, but I'm going to be the head coach. What you see in a lot of MMA fighters is they want the boxing coach, the kickboxing coach, the wrestling coach, the jujitsu coach, and they all have their different philosophies. They all have their different theories. Of course, the wrestling coach wants you to take the fight to the ground. The submission coach wants you to bar on the guy or strangle them, and the kickboxer wants you to kick him in the head, and the boxing wants you to knock them out with a straight right. It's like, I want to put together a whole package for you B.J. If you're interested in doing this here's what it's going to look like, and I would be open. You think about that and then call me back. He called me back and said,"okay, well, how long is my camp?" I said, well, it's going to be eight weeks. "I've never done an eight-week training camp."I said, I understand you've probably never done an eight-week training camp. That's fine, but we're going to do an eight-week training camp. I'm going to lay it out for you. But first week is you're going to come out to Oregon. I'm going to evaluate you. We're just going to train. I'm going to see where your fitness level is. Then I'm going to send you to the Olympic Training Center. This was before I was a national coach. One of my assistant coach was a mole, who was a Olympic champion, gold medalist for Yugoslavia. He was coaching here in Colorado. He retired last year and has moved on. Now he's training jujitsu in Kentucky and he's 65 years old, and he just took up jujitsu. He's pretty damn good at it. \[laughs\] I always told him, because we worked together from 14 through 18, we worked together. For four years I was like, coach, you need to do jujitsu. You need to put on gear, you're 63 now, you don't have to wrestle every day, and just go have fun. Now he's in Kentucky for the last two years, he's loving. He’s calling me, telling me he's doing jujitsu, but I said, I want you to go wrestle Greco Roman for two weeks. I just want you to get in that Greco-Roman shape. I want you to feel the positions that guys are in. Just go get coached in Greco. I don't need to coach you. I've got an Olympic [champion there that can coach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) you. You know what I mean? I know a lot of the stuff he does, but maybe he knows something that I don't too, but go get coached from really good people in Greco-Roman wrestling. Then come back here. Actually I said, go back to Hawaii for four days and then come here, take a break, come back. Then we're going to have our training camp, but now you see we're down to five weeks. I have five weeks. One week is a taper week. One week is fight week. What do I really have is three weeks. I evaluate him in one week, I sent him to Colorado Springs to wrestle Greco for two hopeful weeks just wrestle Greco, get these positions. I don't know if you remember that fight, but couple strikes, double under hooks, little unbalanced, grackle on balance, but he also used a little foot hop with it, which was a little judo sweep and took his back, I think it was like 30 seconds or something. It was a great fight. I had an opportunity to coach him the first time he fought Georgia NPR as well. I thought we won that fight, but it was lost a split decision. One of the areas that we talked about, and I don't know if you-- You're a fight nerd. You'd probably do remember these. B.J likes to put his back against the cage. He uses that knee between the body to create space. He takes away space to slow the guy down and control him. He pushes him away with that knee uses the strikes in the clinch very effectively with his back against the cage. Well, if I was in a room fighting and I've learned. I've learned this, it's like, the best position is to push a guy against the cage for support. But if I was in a real combat situation, I'd want my back against the wall, against the cage so I can see everything that's going on around me. That's more real [life combat and real martial arts,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) not just sport, but I explained to B.J., I said, if you have your back against the cage, it looks like he's controlling. He has the octagon control. That's one of the main criterias that the judges-- These guys aren't real martial artists, they don't understand the sport at your level. They're just looking at it and going look at Georgia, he's pushing B.J up against the cage. Yes, B.J is doing well in defending himself in there. But that's not what was happening. He was actually dominating the position with his back against the cage, doing way more damage. But to the judges, they couldn't recognize that. What they can recognize is who's on top? That guy's winning. Who's got their back against the cage? If I'm forcing that guy to get his back against the cage, well, I'm controlling where the action is. I didn't agree with that tactic and tried to push back against it a lot. But it was one of those areas where he's like, I'm really effective in here. I see that. But do the judges see that? In fighting, unless you've tapped the guy out or knocked him out, it's going to go to the scorecards and you're going to have judges that are going to determine who they thought won that fight. You got to give them more evidence to say, I won the slide, I control these positions, and so I just wish he would have swung them around a few more times, pushed his opponent up against the cage, and done more damage that way. You learn. **Sonny:** I think you've probably touched on there the same thing with about changing people's instincts maybe how hard it could be to change a fighter's instincts in only a short amount of time of the fight camp. I think we see it often that people can game plan for a fight, but it's very difficult to make someone fight a completely different style than they have been in the past. Is that something that when you're game-planning for fights or is that something that you would think is relevant as well? **Matt:** I think that's very important as an athlete to be open-minded and be flexible. I'm not at all saying B.J wasn't open-minded. We had good conversations. He just philosophically disagree with me on that one situation and I didn't have the ego to say, "Well, this is the way you're going to do this." It was like I could see how that's effective, too. I could see both sides. Again, I haven't more trained higher than you do and I've sported with you. I've pushed you against the cage because that's one of my strengths and I see how difficult you are to deal with that. You're almost impossible to take down. When you get your back against the cage or BJ does. Not everybody do. When B.J had his back against the cage, he was damn near impossible to take down. I could see why you like that position. You're much more stable. You've got a barrier to your back. I can see the damage you're doing because I've sported with you and I've been in those situations. All I'm saying is from one perspective, we're looking at this from the judges perspective. How do they see it? That was only that situation, particularly. Like I said earlier that I still felt like he won the fight and it was a split decision. That's one example. It is hard habits die hard man. The habits they die really hard with athletes it's like I've had success with this. It's like, Yes, but you're at another level. There's levels. There's so many levels in wrestling it's like, you start out in this kid's club in the Pee Wee League. Then maybe you wrestled at the state tournament. That's a new level. God forbid you went to the national tournament at your age group but then you got out of that age group. Now you're in high school. Now it's a whole new level. We see attrition at every level. I think the attrition comes from us as coaches not teaching the enjoyment and the joy of the sport and the love of learning and failing and just the whole experience. I think what we do is we say, "You want to win," and we just keep putting more pressure and more pressure. Like winning is so important. Winning happens when you enjoy what you're doing so much to the point that you're obsessed with getting better. Getting better requires you to put yourself in situations to where I'm at a disadvantage. Like I said, for me sometimes especially early in my MMA career, it was like, the stand-up thing, this getting punches and kicks thrown at me, I'm going to spend as much time there as I can because I already know if this was a fight, I wouldn't probably stand in front of you. I'm going to close that distance and get to my control positions, my positive hip angles, and put you on the ground. I'm going to control you and I'm going to do damage until I can find a way to submit you. It's like, how many guys when they're just rolling in Jiu-Jitsu, or don't give up their back. There's especially if you have maybe a partner that you can beat in your guard all day long. If he's in my guard, I'm going to triangle him. I'm going to hit a drag. I'm going to take his back. I'm going to triangle armbar whatever. I know if this guy gets to my back, he's really good there. What am I going to do with this guy? I'm going to let him get to my back as many times as he can in that training session, because that's where he's really strong, and he's really good. If I keep him in my guard, well, my ego is going to win. I'm going to have a really good practice today. What's the definition of a good practice? Did I grow? Did I improve? Did I learn or did I kick somebody's ass in the gym? It doesn't really matter. That's why we see that attrition. I think it could come from coaches just teaching more. It's okay to fail. I expect you to fail. What we are attempting to do here is really difficult. Wrestling at a high level or martial arts at any high level is a very tough task to take on. Somebody's trying to kick the shit out of you. They're trying to choke you, pin you, punch you, or whatever that is, in whatever artwork we're practicing that day. You got to redefine what enjoyment is of the sport and it shouldn't all be about did I win every situation today because if you did, you probably didn't get much better, because you weren't going with good enough guys or even if you have guys that aren't at the same level of you well, give me your back every time. Start with a triangle choke. Let them walk it up. Then Figure out how to get out of that. Put yourself in the worst positions possible sometimes and then start the drill from there. **Sonny:** I hear that and I think about in the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu side of things how much more difficult that is made potentially by having the ranking system. If you've got someone just one rank below you who you're supposed to-- That puts you above them how much extra pressure that might put on someone to be risk-averse in that situation which wrestling doesn't have. Do you think that could be a contributing factor? **Matt:** You know what, I still don't have a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Not because I haven't been offered a black belt just because I've chosen not to be a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I'm okay. My wife's like, "Why haven't you ever gotten a black belt?" I was like because I still study Jiu-Jitsu. I love to go to other places and learn and study. It's like, it doesn't matter because that's just somebody's opinion that says, "You're good enough to have a black belt." I don't know. I think you just got to take the ego out of that and say it doesn't matter. We're all white belts. Shouldn't we have a white belt mentality as we go into the gym? We hear that ad nauseam, like, "Oh, I have that." As you as soon as you go on against the guy that's a belt color above you, you're going to go harder. You just see those guys are **\[unintelligible 00:57:36\]** and they're breathing and it's like, "Dude, I'm not going to hurt you." You know what I mean? It's like I'm just here to train and get a little flat. Roll around and have fun but it's serious. I call them the head squeezers or they'll squeeze anything. Anything they get a hold of, they'll just squeeze, squeeze it. You're like, "Okay. Go ahead and squeeze that and then you'll be done here in three, two, okay. Now I can roll with you because you've depleted all your energy systems." A big thing about martial arts and coaching is how to control that energy management too. Energy, there's only a certain amount of it that you have. Whether the bout is six minutes or 25 of it in a title fight or whatever, you got to think about how you're using those energies. Putting yourself in positive hip angles and control positions allows you as the guy that has that position, allows you to almost recover in those positions. We're still in the fight. The fight is happening but I'm not tense. I'm relaxed in those positions, and he's tense. How many more times can I put my opponent under threat where he's using that energy, that nervous energy, like I can't be here much longer, because something bad's going to happen because you start to realize, "Okay. He's controlling me. I can't score until I free this arm. Now he's got a positive hip angle." Now that guy is going to start using way more energy when you're letting off the power and you're waiting for that moment to explode and use that energy. I've always tried to use an acronym for MMA. I said, minimize the amount of energy you expend, maximize the amount of energy you're imposing on your opponent, and attack effectively as possible. It's all about when do I exert and when do I not exert? The head squeezers, they're just going to burn energy till it's done and then you just see a \*crack\* because they don't understand that how to use that energy throughout whatever the given timeframe is. **Sonny:** I think that's really good, solid advice about utilizing energy and making sure the way that you're using it is putting your opponent into a deficit and you're getting the advantage over them by that. I think that's really strong advice. Speaking of then of some of the pressures of MMA and dealing with maybe athletes in MMA who are more confident in themselves and maybe sure of their own way. Then the additional pressures that could put on someone, coaching and just experience of coaching in general. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind just maybe finishing off with your thoughts on Robert Follis, who was coach at Team Quest and just, he tragically passed away by taking his own life. Just your thoughts on some of that or just even a valuable lesson you learned from him. **Matt:** I can tell you, I learned a lot of lessons from Robert Follis. It was very surprising that such a positive influence on so many individuals. You would have never thought Robert was depressed. Apparently he struggled with this for a long time but didn't share that with anybody. If there's anybody out there that is dealing with that depression, you need to talk to somebody. Recently this week I actually talked to somebody, I'm not going to tell you who but this guy was a world champion in two combat sports, literally a world champion. He's transitioning out of the competitiveness and trying to figure out what's next. What's next in his mid-40s and it's like, "I've been an athlete. I've been a combat athlete my whole life. I've been a world champion my whole life. Now I got to figure out what I'm going to do." A lot of guys go into coaching or whatever. There's only so many of those jobs out there. There's only one Greco-Roman national team coach in the United States. There's one in Sweden and one in Finland and Norway and Russia. Those jobs they're just not there and you got to create those things. If somebody's dealing with that, first of all, I think they probably should find Jesus because I think that gives a lot of people a lot of peace and knowing that there's something greater than this life. There's an eternal life. I think that's an important lesson there. I think one of the things Robert, he didn't have Jesus in his life but I think he was always looking. He was looking for what the next thing like that. He loved to go to Tony Robbins and listen to him and he loved to be inspired by people. I can be inspired by history and reading a good book and find out what others have done. Robert treated everybody very well. He was a very good coach as far as open-minded about bringing new skills in. I think that was probably one of the greatest things that he did is he always would help us like Randy or me or we would invite different people in whether I fought them or trained with them or against them, even if I could have fought that guy in the future. It's like, "Come into our gym. We're going to both compete. It doesn't matter if we've trained together a year ago or six months ago. We're going to bring our fight to the game." Robert did a good job of bringing in a lot of different ideas and outside influences, different instructors that maybe-- You wouldn't believe the names of guys that have been in our room and coaches and athletes that I've got to learn from. I've talked to you about I've spent a lot of time with BJ and spent a lot of time with Marcel Garcia and John Hackleman was one of my great mentors and Matt Hume and Maurice Smith and I love Maurice. What a great boxer. His coaching style for me was more of that, "No, you need to do it like this. You need to do it like this." It's like, "Yes. This was working. Maybe this one is okay." Because I'm not trying to knock the guy out. I'm just trying to land this punch to get to the clinch. I get it, but if I land that punch and then I got a slip and I got to duck or move my head, he might punch me back. I might get knocked out. That isn't my strength. What if I just land that punch and I close the distance. You'll find people that are saying, "That's okay," versus guys that are like, "No, you need to do it this way." Being exposed to everybody gives you such a wealth of knowledge. Then I can even tell you Dennis Hallman was one of the guys that I've learned so much from. Jeff Monson, those guys are our neighbors. They're just up the street from us. I am forgetting names after names of all the great people that have come through our gym and I've been able to be coached by or been able to share things with and just that brainstorming of like, "Well, this is how I do it." There's something simple like taking a double wrist lock and going above the elbow or below the elbow and having these philosophical discussions on leverage and pressure and strength. It's like, "If I go against this, that part of my arm is a lot stronger than this part. This part here, I've got more leverage points." You're like, "Yes, but this coach showed it this way." It's like, "We'll try it this way," and being open-minded and willing to say, "All right. I'm going to try it and see if it works." Also you're like, "Wait a minute, that's better. I've been doing it this way all along." You know what, I'm going to start doing it this way because I feel like that's going to be more effective. I could take that for a million situations. I used to do this technique on the front choke, where a lot of guys they love this Gable. They call it the Gable grip. Dan Gable gets a lot of credit in our country as the master. I call it a butterfly grip because it looks like a butterfly. I was using this grip here. I don't know if you can see it but it's a really awkward grip. I can only pull a Gable grip that tight. I can push that thing all the way through the back of his throat and changing the leverage points. I called it a chokeslam because I started when I let a guy shoot a single and when he'd start to drive I'd get out the way and let it head slam into the mat, give him a concussion as I was slapping a choke on to him. Everyone's like, "Ozzie guillotine or you're not doing it right." It's like, "I'm not doing that move. I'm doing something totally different that I just stole this little piece for Marcello. I took that piece for BJ and I figured out how to do this lock because that's what I did when I was wrestling Greco was-- I know I can push it more than I can pull it in and just taking bits and pieces. Like all great artists, you got to steal and take what works and call it your own. I just think Robert was really good at saying, "Show me. I want to learn that. All right. Let's do it your way," or "You know what I think this way is going to be better. Why don't you try it? If it doesn't work, let's unmarry it, let's get rid of it. For a month let's just work on it this way." Being open-minded not saying that my way is the only way, but saying, "I think this will work or I think this won't work. Why don't we experiment? Why don't we try it and try it on next time. You got that on Shale. Try it on Randy. See if it works on him." Which nothing ever worked on Randy. I tapped Randy one time in the room one time in my whole career. You know what I tapped him with, guess the move. **Sonny:** I don't know. Peruvian necktie. **Matt:** It was the toehold. **Sonny:** The toehold. \[laughs\] **Matt:** That was because he was standing on top of me beating me down. I swung around got his leg and I was like, "This is working. Wait, wait, wait. It's going to work." All of a sudden he tapped. I was like, "That's it. I'm done for the day." It's the only time I've ever tapped the natural out but now it's just taking those and trying on the next level guy and seeing, "Does this work here? Okay. It works at this level, but will it work at the highest levels against the best guys?" **Sonny:** I like that. It's really beautiful. Some of the things that you've gone through there and it's very important. What you said to reach out and speak to people if you're going through something like that and to have those conversations. Of course I'm loving this conversation on technique and coaching that we're having too. The conversations of reaching out to people for help if you need it that's also very important and even something that I myself should be doing more often. I'm sure it's probably something everyone should be doing a bit more than they normally are. To make things a bit more personal, I guess if we're going that route and keeping it in wrestling, and the last question would be, well, we're trying to grow wrestling out here in Australia, me and Gary Jones the wrestling foundation, wondering what tips, with Brazilian jujitsu it does seem that the ranking system is very good for student retention in getting \[crosstalk\] provided? **Matt:** Oh, it's great for gym owners and it's great for retention and I think there's a lot of positives in both sides of that like you said, I think we lose a lot of athletes to wrestling because maybe we don't have that system to where they can see if I do these things, I can get to that next level. There's always a next level for them. It's like you're either winning or you're not winning with wrestling and that's hard. Like I said, are you growing? Are you improving? Are also important. I don't need somebody that's maybe got a higher belt rank than me to tell me if I'm at the next level, I have to feel it and I have to know it because I've done it and it's not just because somebody else's their opinion and that's really all it is, isn't it? Am I wrong? Is there more to it than I'm missing out? **Sonny:** On any given day, it's the same with anything else. You could say there's more to it and people could have that debate for ages, but on any given day, anything can happen and you might be caught sleeping, and then what does as the old saying goes, the belt only covers two inches of your ass. **Matt:** That is true. Now that's good and I think if we as coaches instill the love of the sport into our athletes and stop putting so much pressure on doing things perfect or doing things this way and just saying, show me how that works, you're having success. I want to know what you're doing, it makes it work and maybe I can learn from you and I could coach you better because I don't want to change anybody that wrestles far as obviously they've gotten to this level because they're doing something right. When I get to a guy that's making a world or Olympic team, I'm not trying to make these gross adjustments. I'm just trying to make micro-adjustments maybe work on their training prioritization plans, or their mental skills or some small technical adjustments and just everything is an add. How can I add to what you're already doing? It's not how can I change you or how can I mold you? It's like, how can I just add on to what you've already built because you built something pretty damn good to get to this level, and what are your strengths, and what techniques should we try to work into your strength areas. I think that's important. **Sonny:** Yes, I like that and that is something that I think Gary Jones has done by implementing a level system within the coaching of wrestling to give the students level one, level two, level three system to work through with techniques to try and encourage that side of things so I think that's a good place to take things for sure. Look, Matt, it's been a wonderful conversation. **Matt:** Thank you. **Sonny:** I've really enjoyed it. I hope you have-- **Matt:** I developed a belt ranking system for Team Quest and it was for retention. It was from my students that were young. It wasn't for guys that are competing like your belt is what are you fighting in Strikeforce, UFC or that's your belt, but for the young athletes and in 20 years I've promoted four black belts and two of them are still training at my gym and see one of them, she was the only female out of the four. She's 25 years old and she's also my daughter and the other one who just turned 16. He started with us when he was five and he got his black belt just a year ago. He got his black belt and then Isaiah and Kaitlin, they're still doing martial arts. Kaitlin took up some stick fighting, but he blew his knee out doing football, American style football, and Isaiah, he's 19 now and he's just trying to figure out what he wants to do in life. I think that martial arts definitely gave all of these young people, good base a foundation. They're all having success in other areas and like I said, two of them are still really heavily involved in martial arts. Robert is a 16, he's trying to make the U-17 world team. My daughter, she's not a competitive martial artist, but she's in the gym daily training and staying fit and running our fitness side of our programs at Team Quest and she's a very good martial artist too. I've gone back and forth on women in martial arts and whatever the opinions are and I think it's really a great thing for all young people, whether it's a young girl, it builds just that confidence and self-esteem and for men, I think it's critical. I think all men should be required to do martial arts of some sort or some kind just to develop that resiliency that somehow we've lost as a society because right now we're locked up in our houses and not even going out because we're so riddled with fear that we might get a bug. I understand that coronavirus is real and it makes certain people sick and if you feel like you're compromised and you're unhealthy, well you should not go out in outdoors, but you should not try to mandate what somebody else should do and how much risk they should be able to take with their own lives. Where does it stop with taking risks, I think we all know that risky behavior and we still do them, we still get in our car and get on the highway and more people die every year from car accidents than have this year from coronavirus, and we're still driving. **Sonny:** Yes, I think that being able to evaluate risks and learning sometimes the hard way sometimes the easy way I guess if you've got a coach there to help guide you with those risky decisions is such an important thing that can be taken from the training room and then used hopefully lifelong in a lifelong practice of martial arts is probably the best and ideal goal for the young guys. You mentioned stick fighting, I think that one could become huge in with the social distancing going on. The stick fighting might come in handy and could be the one that could be the next big thing I tell you. \[laughs\] **Matt:** I tell you what, and if I had the time and there's a couple of martial arts I wouldn't mind trying, that's one of them and then what's that other one that's like really meditative and like the ones that old people do, I'm 50 now- **Sonny:** Tai Chi. **Matt:** -so I might have to do Tai Chi. That one looks very interesting to me. **Sonny:** Do you know Tai Chi is pretty much, they have a competitive side of it? **Matt:** Oh, I've read that book. **Sonny:** The Art of Learning, have you seen his matches? **Matt:** Yes. **Sonny:** They're pretty much Greco-Roman. I think you'd be pretty good at it, Matt. **Matt:** I think you're right and I've also trained in Thailand and Muay Thai like the Thai do it is very close to Greco-Roman as well. Head up, hips in. The only difference is you're slamming knees and elbows into the guy's body instead of shoulders like Greco and Thai fighting are so similar. Well Sonny, thank you for having me on your show and keep up the great videos and appreciate that one you did on me and stay safe dude. **Sonny:** Thank you very much for your time, Matt. I'd love to have you back on some other time to talk about your career and all the technical sides and maybe that time that Fedo held the ropes when you were fighting against him. **Matt:** It's all good. Thank you, brother. **Sonny:** Thank you. ![Matt Lindland Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lindland_tsbb_promo2.jpg "lindland_tsbb_promo2 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [John Will On Designing BJJ Lessons & Learning Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) **Published:** November 22, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![John Will - BJJ Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/john_will_bjj_interview-1024x576.webp "John B Will BJJ Interview › Sonny Brown")I talk to **John B Will** about four decades of coaching, the craft of class design and how lessons from the mat translate to business, money and life. Australia’s first Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black-belt explains why teaching starts with purpose, why “dessert” techniques can hide sound fundamentals and why every session deserves a post-mortem. > “What got you there is not what keeps you there.” > > - John B Will ## Listen To John Will ### Apple ### Google ### Spotify ## Timestamps \[02:17\] - John Will’s Intro \[03:45\] - About the seminars John does \[06:42\] - Designing a class \[10:00\] - How he decides what to include in the class? \[12:34\] - Problem with martial arts—people are drawn towards flashy moves \[15:55\] - How to make the boring part of Jiu-Jitsu training exciting \[20:44\] - Ways to disguise fundamentals with flashy moves \[23:06\] - Ways to encourage students to take ownership of their own learning \[26:19\] - Setting the steps for his students, he wants them to follow \[27:33\] - Teaching the students how to extract maximum value from whatever they’re doing \[30:17\] - Best constraints to make people perform better \[33:11\] - When you’re on the mat, act like other people don’t exist \[36:45\] - Dealing with the problem of the Bystanders effect \[38:15\] - The traffic constraint \[41:41\] - Knowing the reasons behind his decisions as a coach \[46:35\] - Extracting value from your workout \[52:29\] - Stop the cascade of thinking \[54:27\] - Getting out of your comfort zone \[59:25\] - How did his training under Anthony Lange come into fruition? \[1:01:32\] - Martial arts beyond functionality \[1:04:01\] - His article about mixing martial arts \[1:07:31\] - His advice to people who want to bring changes in martial arts ## Topics #### **He pays attention to Teaching The fundamentals in his seminars** John pays more attention to the [fundamental principles of BJJ and martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-thornton-art-of-aliveness-fundamentals/) in his seminars. He says, “I tend to be inclined towards nuance and paying attention to detail. It’s just my nature. And when you do something like teaching a class more than 10,000 times, it becomes so important". This meshes with that old myth about the ‘10,000 hours to get expertise.’ So when you start teaching 10 or 20,000 classes, and you link that together with a natural inclination to paying attention to detail, then you’ll notice things in your 5000th class that you didn’t notice teaching in your first class.” #### **Deciding what to include in the BJJ class** Telling about how he decides what to include in the class, he says, “I would leave out the foliage and all those little crazy iterations of iterations. That’s it. I would leave that out and focus on the basic idea, the main thing, and maybe the first branching of the concept because that’s what got it started when none of this foliage would exist. So that’s a mistake. You started in some weird variation of the move, and they don’t even know why they’re doing de la Riva. Why de la Riva? We used to call it standing half guard, you’re up, and I’ve got one of your legs in between my legs before it was called going over standing half guard. So why am I doing that? Because of this situation. Because it’s about an angle, so you start with that and then build on it and then build on it and then later on you can end up getting the de la Riva but getting the under-hook, pulling the knee inside, going to K guard, and getting the backside.” #### **Best constraints to keep the people on the mat** Don’t be surrounded by your students because precisely 50% of them can’t see what you’re doing. John says, “I’ve seen so-called high-level coaches—they’re not high-level coaches, they’re high-level performers. Everyone make a circle, and now I will demonstrate a technique. What is that? It’s silly. So what I could say is everyone gets that side of me. And then I take responsibility for the way I orient, so you get to see the angle. And then, if you need to see the other side, we spin it around so that they see the other side. But that’s a mechanical fix. What’s much better than that we get across to our students this concept of taking full responsibility for their own learning.” #### **Encouraging students to take full responsibility for their own learning** Taking responsibility for their own learning means the coach got to stand up and walk three meters over there to see the beat. That’s much better. Because then, the problem is not fixed by a trick. John says, “I will do lots of learning tricks to overcome some of their little problems because they can’t figure out the walk over there. So I will fix it because I want the outcome in my advanced class. No, they will walk, move, ask a question they will get, and want clarification; that’s what I want. But that requires time to get them more because through that they can then transport that anywhere in the world, any situation and be great at learning.” #### **Pay Attention**! Another constraint to keep people on the mat is paying attention. This sounds silly, but to make it simple to understand—the way to behave on the mat is to act as if it was just you and the person playing with you. So if you and he were in a conversation about something, and he started talking, and you started making some moves, he would think something’s wrong with me. But you put 20 people there, and people feel that “no way. I’m not putting up with it.” So it’s a simple rule, the way you’re on the mat, and 20 people are watching, you’re going to look at him, and you have to act as if those other 19 people do not exist. #### **The reason John Will mixed BJJ and martial arts** Nowadays, mixing martial arts might not be considered to be anything special. But back in 1982, it was considered radical to mix your martial arts. John says, “In fact, I got a lot of flack for that from the traditional martial arts community. Someone was doing Shota Can Taekwondo, or they did Jeet Kune Do or boxing, etc. And I was just having none of it. And the reason I was having none of it was that when I looked out into the world, that was not the solution for the problem that was there. The fights that I got into and saw in Southeast Asia, for example, were headbutts and elbows and taking him down and playing with a knife, and stabbing him twice. I needed to know a lot of things here. I was looking at the world, there was a very clear problem, and I wanted to simplify it. Because martial art shouldn’t be just about functionality, there’s a lot of value in martial arts that have nothing to do with fighting. It could be argued that most of it has nothing to do with fighting because we’re not getting into fights. We’re actually living a healthy, normal, well-balanced adjusted lifestyle.” ### John Will Resources ### John Will Links - [John Will Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/john.b.will.7 "John Will Facebook") - [John Will Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/johnwillbjj/ "John Will Instagram") - [John Will YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/johnbwill "John Will YouTube") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![John Will - Learning BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/john_will_bjj_promo-1024x1024.webp "john_will_bjj_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Erik Paulson On Free Thinking, Submissions, Shooto & Spirit](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-paulson-interview-shooto-spirit/) **Published:** March 23, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Erik Paulson Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/erik_paulson_sonny_brown-1024x576.jpg "erik_paulson_sonny_brown › Sonny Brown")In this episode of the podcast, I talk to one of the forefathers of American MMA & submission grappling, the founder of Combat Submission Wrestling, Erik Paulson. We discuss the benefits of note-taking and the ability to be a free thinker and having freedom of movement, along with stories of the early days of training with the Gracies & the Machado Brothers alongside Shooto & Catch Wrestling. ## Listen to Erik Paulson ### Listen to the Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/free-thinking-fusion-of-fist-fights-submissions/id1476963733?i=1000514108621) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3GAtBHFzzXjR3SNwGb0Rvj?si=a53641e03dd24823) ## Topics ### Goal setting and the art of journalling Paulson opens by urging athletes to “write out your short-term and long-term goals”, recalling that carefree spending and zero planning left him scrambling later in life. At Inosanto Academy every student kept a notebook; he still reviews his own videos and entries to rediscover forgotten details, proving that systematic logging turns experience into a permanent, shareable curriculum. ### Old-school Shuto volume versus modern recovery Early Shuto camps demanded two-to-three sessions a day, five days a week, plus 8 a.m. fight practice where lateness meant public scolding. Only years later did he realise Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr’s short, heavy sessions followed by full rest days produced better adaptation. The lesson: intensity must leave space for recovery, or “you don’t know how much is too much”. ### The Motion Master ground-bag Frustrated taping chains on heavy bags, Paulson built a figure-eight “Motion Master” to drill hip-heists, neon-belly pop-ups and ground striking. “Bag never complains. It’s always on time, never has gas,” he jokes while recounting how security teams – and even Mariah Carey’s entourage – travel with the bag for ten-minute anaerobic workouts. Innovation, he says, starts by solving your own training problems. ### Pressure-testing: knowing when “to bang” While technical sparring has merits, Paulson insists fighters occasionally “go really hard” to temper their chins and uncover weak points that light rounds hide. Without genuine impact, athletes enter competition unprepared for real pressure. ### Attack mentality and leg-lock funnels Shuto rules gave 10–30 seconds on the mat, so Sensei Yuri’s advice was simple: quit playing, attack immediately. Paulson learned to fire leg locks the instant an opponent pulled guard; if the feet disappeared, he used the attempt to pass and hunt the upper body – a total-body submission mindset he still teaches today. ### Kesa Gatame and the “Kesa Crush” Influenced by catch wrestling, Paulson refined head-and-arm throws into a 45-degree chest-asphyxiation he calls the 270-pound (or 125-kilo) choke. Watching Mark Coleman finish Dan Severn confirmed its fight efficacy and led him to develop extensive submissions from Kesa Gatame that surprise traditional BJJ players. ### Note Taking Techniques Actually, right now it is a good time to write down your ideas. That's what I do, I write down my ideas and then my wife helps me type them out. That's how we work together. It's funny because I've been working on this for a long time, and I finally got my wife to help me. But I wrote an entire booklet that was created specifically for students. It can be anyone who trains you - fighters or students. And we were always taught at the Inosanto Academy through Guru Dan that we should write everything down so we can remember it later on. It's funny, I see no one taking notes today except for one person. And I go, well, that's because they remember it all already. Many people say that if you're on a journey to become a coach or teacher in the future, you might forget some of your information if you don't write it down. In the long term, what if you forget something important? Journaling and writing notes can help you remember things. It's funny because this guy asked me where I learned all my [leg locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) from, and I told him from my videos. But he didn't believe me. I said it was a joke. Anyway, it's helpful to watch your old videos to remember what you have learned. This is how you continue developing your skills. ### Shooto vs Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I started learning Brazilian Jujitsu at the same time I was learning about positioning, escapes, and transitions, and I was lucky enough to learn from some of the best instructors in both fields. I found out in Jiu-Jitsu that it was based more on positioning and staying calm, which they called real estate. This was different from what I learned in Shooto, in which you need to get into position and attack quickly because you only have 10 to 30 seconds before returning to standing up and fighting again. That's why all the submission stuff that Shooto taught was called quick kills, where you need to attack fast. I remember one time when I had to fight ten guys in a row. My coach said that I needed to take them down one at a time and not play around. I needed to be aggressive and go for the kill. So I did, and after I defeated ten or twelve guys, he told me I had to submit each one of them. I remember letting a guy pull guard on me, and I played around with him. But then my teacher came over and told me I needed to attack. He said I didn't have enough time and energy to play around. So as soon as someone would pull guard, I attacked them. If they were good at defending, I would catch them. But if they weren't, I would use a leg attack. Leg locks become a guard pass because they would pull their feet back and hide them, and then I would attack their upper body. I knew that all the fighters in Shooto, as a shooter, had to [learn combinations of techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) one through ten. This is approximately 148 submissions. Each combination has 6-30 techniques, making up your arsenal of attacks. It was good because of positioning and attacking. What Shooto lacked was defence and transition, which had to come from Jiu-Jitsu's guard. ### The Difference Between The Gracie & Machado Guard I'm learning from all of the Brazilian guys. So as you're learning from the Brazilians, remember that the guard is 90% of the game. You need to learn how to sweep, pass, and attack with your guard. Back then, most people were using closed guards. But I remember at Rickson's academy, they would say, "keep your guard closed, or it gets passed." Then I went to the Machado academy I immediately noticed that everyone at the Machados was opening their guards and I asked them, "why don't you keep your guard closed?" Rigan answered, "How will you get better if you don't open up your guard?" For me, when I saw everyone opening their guards at the Machado academy, I was excited because I knew it was a good opportunity for me to attack with leg locks. So when I saw this, I got excited because I knew I could attack them by taking advantage of their open guards. However, Rigan told me to show them something new and innovative. I didn't know what he meant, so he explained to me that I should stop attacking their legs since they were already aware of my strategies. ## Erik Paulson Resources #### Quotes > The deal is, there's so many black belts in jujitsu out there, so they're all kind of doing the same thing, right? So what would be different that I could add to my arsenal that most people don't know or haven't seen [catch wrestling, and they go, what is catch wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/)? I go? Well, I don't know. Do you do neck cranks? Because that's part of [catch wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/). Do you attack the legs a lot? That's catch wrestling. > > - Erik Paulson #### Links - [Erik Paulson Website](https://erikpaulson.com/) - [Erik Paulson Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/erikpaulson/?hl=en) - [Motion Master Grappling Bag](https://revgear.com/motion-master-grappling-dummy-by-erik-paulson/) If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Matt Kwan On Blading, Tempo & Establishing Offensive Cycles For BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-kwan-interview-blading-tempo-cycles/) **Published:** November 6, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Matt Kwan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/matt_kwan-1024x576.jpg "Matt Kwan › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Matt Kwan**, a Canadian black-belt, coach of On Guard BJJ and co-host of *BJJ Mental Models*. Matt traces his path from chef to full-time instructor, explains why he aligned his academy with Rob Biernacki, and shares the training program he uses to build skilful, self-reliant grapplers. We dive deep into merit-based grading, offensive/defensive cycles, blading for guard passing and the central role of grip-fighting in modern Jiu-Jitsu. ## Listen To Matt Kwan ### Listen to the Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bjj-mental-models-of-blading-tempo-establishing/id1476963733?i=1000497426231) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/26PdWSI2Ha8EdFMidHnyJo?si=8a5a233433874f5a) ## Topics ### Coaching Journey and Philosophy Matt recounts leaving the kitchen for the mats, absorbing Rob Biernacki’s “alignment” framework and ultimately opening On Guard BJJ. Honest feedback, he says, is priceless: being told his guard was not yet black-belt calibre pushed him to refine it and shaped a culture of continual improvement at his gym. ### Merit-Based Grading and Kids’ Tests Promotion is earned, not gifted. For adults Matt avoids formal tests, judging progress by performance and character. Children receive a structured booklet months before a grading day so they can prepare technique, theory and etiquette with their parents. The aim is learning, not rubber-stamping; failure is avoided by ensuring readiness well in advance. ### Tempo - Offensive vs Defensive Cycles Borrowing chess terminology, Matt explains that you must dictate *tempo*. If you grip and off-balance, you are in an **offensive cycle**; if you are merely framing, you have slipped into a **defensive cycle**. Training should therefore centre on winning the initial grip exchange and forcing the opponent to post their hands, denying them time to blitz. ### Blading for Guard Passing “Blading” means turning your shoulders or hips to shrink surface area and redirect frames. By switching the force angle during headquarters or half-guard passing, you collapse stubborn shields without burning energy, creating openings for chest-to-chest pins or back takes. ### The Grip-Fighting Program Twice a week classes open with mini-games: two-on-one battles from seated guard, headquarters entry drills and blitz scenarios. Removing submissions lets students focus on grip outcomes, inside-leg positioning and immediate off-balances, translating theory into live reactions and reinforcing the offensive cycle. ### Simplifying the Game with Age Now in his thirties, Matt has streamlined his arsenal. Fancy berimbolo chains gave way to reliable funnels such as top half-guard and double-under passes that conserve energy, work against bigger partners and keep him safely in control. ## Timestamps \[02:29\] - Matt’s backstory \[09:53\] - His criteria vs. Rob's criteria for giving a black belt \[12:26\] - About his idea of implementing kids belts test \[16:04\] - The goal of the Kids Belt Test \[17:24\] - Testing as pass or fail is up to the instructor's interpretation \[19:49\] - Don't ask a kid to do a belt test unless they're ready \[21:25\] - The carrot and stick approach to encourage and motivate people \[24:02\] - Mental models that Matt found applicable \[27:48\] - Putting together the defensive and offensive cycle \[30:37\] - You cannot hold the De La Riva Guard \[32:15\] - The best way to learn De La Riva Guard with offensive and defensive cycles \[34:17\] - Try to establish your grip \[36:00\] - Head is one of the most underrated grips that you can use \[38:16\] - Gordon Ryan's No Gi Passes \[41:10\] - In Jiu-Jitsu, there's no time to be in the defensive cycle \[42:19\] - The best way to put a technique into a live scenario \[44:00\] - Have slick guard retention to become offensive \[45:30\] - About Matt's Blading model to redirect frames \[51:05\] - Understand the content to the extent that it becomes an obsession \[53:21\] - Change the angle of your hips and shoulder to deflect the Knee-Shield \[56:00\] - Off-balance your opponent when you're stuck in a defensive cycle \[57:43\] - Ways to interrupt the opponent's offensive cycle \[01:02:05\] - When you got caught in double under the situation \[01:03:45\] - Use less energy as possible and make the opponent work more \[01:05:09\] - Create high percentage funnels to keep the opponent in the defensive cycle \[01:06:44\] - Emphasis of Gi and No-Gi in grip fighting ## Topics ### **Belt Test For Kids** He doesn't like the idea of a Belt test for kids. He says, "Are you going to fail or pass a kid because it's a test? And if they fail the test, it can demotivate them. So, it's a better idea to have this test as more of a handbook or a playbook as opposed to an actual test where you will pass or fail. He compares it to American Football, where he was the smallest guy in the field who had very little athletic ability. So for the first half of the year, they give him a playbook and learn the plays and practice, and then the second half of the year is the games. He figured out from this that if he looks at this as a playbook and gives it to the kids a few months before their quote test, where they have to perform techniques, then at least they have on paper what they need to know. And if they don't know it, they can come and ask the coach, or they can study on their own time and also their parents can also get involved in it. ### **Don't Spoon Feed The Information** Teach kids how to learn. He doesn't want them to regurgitate but understand the tricks and techniques. He tells them to explain [alignment](https://www.sonnybrown.net/alignment-jiu-jitsu-theory-rory-van-vliet/ "Alignment Theory and the Science Behind Your Jiu-Jitsu With Rory van Vliet"). He says, "I don't want them to repeat in my words, what is posture structure base? I want them to be in a position and tell me, Okay, are you in alignment right now? Are you on base? Do you have posture?" In that way, they can take what they've learned and plug it into any given situation. In this way, you can know whether or not they've understood the principles and if they can apply them to any given situation.” ### **Theory Part Of The Test** The test that he designed also has a theory for the kids. Like for Grey Belts, you can ask questions: What do you like about Jiu-Jitsu? What don't you like about Jiu-Jitsu? Why do we shake hands before? Name a time in life when you might have to use the skill. He also wants to make sure that they can do the solo drills needed in Jiu-Jitsu by asking questions like: Can you do a shrimp? Can you do a sit-out? Can you bridge? What's an under hook? There is value in that for the kids. ### **Matt Kwan Abolished The Sub-Belts** In the IBJJF model, there are four kids' belts, and each belt has three sub-belts. Matt abolished the sub-belts in his school. He decided to go on for the grey, yellow, orange, or green belts. He did so because he didn't want to promote the kids constantly. He wants to make them really want the promotion. The test is not necessarily a pass or fail thing. So the kids can take the test when they are ready. ### **Mental Models That He Found Applicable In His Journey** The first one is the idea of tempo, which is actually a [chess](https://www.sonnybrown.net/adisa-banjoko-blending-hip-hop-chess-jiu-jitsu/ "Blending Hip Hop, Chess & BJJ With Adisa Banjoko of the Hip Hop Chess Federation") term. Gordon Ryan refers to it as offensive cycles, defensive cycles. He explains it by giving an example: "Let's say I'm in the bottom position, and my opponent is on top. So if I were to make a grip, I would off-balance my opponent and force him to post hands on the floor. I'm now in the offensive cycle. This is because I have won the engagement phase using grips, and I've made him post on the floor. So I've broken his alignment. So for this moment, my opponent is vulnerable. And my opponent is very unlikely to start a passing chain because his alignment is compromised. So he is more concerned about improving his posture. And I have an opportunity now to sweep to enter the legs to go for submissions. So that would be an example of an offensive cycle." For Defensive Cycles, he says, "Let's say my opponent [pulls guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) on me, and he has a Color Ankle De La Riva Guard situation. He has an open-guard situation. He has a grip on me. So if he has got grips, and he is moving me around. And I'm on top, and I'm feeling a little bit off balance. I'm in a defensive cycle. So for me to get into an offensive cycle, what I need to do is break the grips that immediately break my alignment. As soon as I break the grip, I don't just start passing right away. I will either try to change the angles, or I will make space. That is where I can change it from a defensive cycle to an offensive cycle." ### **In Jiu-Jitsu, There's No Time To Be In Defensive Cycle** In Jiu-Jitsu, there's no time to be in the Defensive Cycle. You want to be in the offensive cycle the entire time. It teaches the person on the bottom to always be in an offensive cycle. But it also teaches the person on top to be in an offensive cycle. And the best way to be in a Defensive Cycle is to remove factors like submissions and even guard passing. ## Matt Kwan Resources ### Quotes > "Not everyone can go to university and become a professor. And not everyone has the skills to earn a real black belt." > > - Matt Kwan > "If you can't display the requirements, then you shouldn't get your next belt." > > - Matt Kwan > "The best defense is a good offense." > > - Matt Kwan > "If you don't know what to do, strip whatever grip your opponents have and try to establish your own." > > - Matt Kwan > "You don't just get your grips and then stop. It's a ladder or a sequence that should lead you to the finish." > > - Matt Kwan ### Show Notes ### Matt Kwan **Links** - [BJJ Mental Models](http://www.bjjmentalmodels.com "http://www.bjjmentalmodels.com") - <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3JMczv6cufhxjeq2D8ANjQ> - <https://twitter.com/bjjmentalmodels/> - <https://www.instagram.com/bjjmentalmodels> ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Priit Mihkelson On The BJJ Clapping Ritual & Self Determination Theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-clapping-ritual-motivation/) **Published:** October 16, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Priit Mihkelson - BJJ Clapping Ritual & Self Determination Theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/prii_mihkelson_sdt-1024x576.jpg "Priit Mihkelson › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Priit Mihkelson** about reshaping Jiu-Jitsu rituals with evidence-based coaching, the psychology of motivation and his “defensive BJJ” teaching framework. We dig into why he objects to the ubiquitous “3-2-1 clap”, how he designs progressive-resistance games to replace rote technique drills and the role of autonomy, competence and relatedness in skill acquisition ([self-determination theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination_theory "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination_theory")). ## Listen to Priit Mihkelson: ### Listen To The Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reformation-of-rituals-based-on-research-sparring/id1476963733?i=1000494918358) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5lQcmLJx1wrlgtTj0EBEJ8?si=310d64906c464585) ## Topics ### Iterative Content Development Priit treats technique creation much like software engineering: publish an early “version 1”, stress-test it with as many practitioners as possible, then patch the weaknesses quickly. His new subscription site is built precisely for that purpose, members see experimental material, try it in live rounds, and report back so the next video can be updated or scrapped altogether. This cyclic approach shortens the time between idea and reliable solution, and it keeps even seasoned coaches accountable because “the feedback is the most important thing, more brains make the system stronger. ### Self-Directed Learning & Spaced Repetition ather than spoon-feeding fixed curricula, Priit encourages athletes to decide what they study, revisit core material at set intervals, and measure their own improvement. Borrowing from cognitive science, he argues that spaced repetition, brief, frequent returns to high-value positions, cements decision-making under fatigue far better than marathon technique sessions once a month. The result is a room full of problem-solvers who can adapt mid-roll rather than copy-paste a coach’s answers. ### Feedback-Driven Innovation Because every upload is a hypothesis, criticism is welcomed, not feared. Students flag when a move breaks under pressure, and those reports appear publicly so others can weigh in. Failures are logged, fixes filmed, and the cycle restarts. Over time the archive becomes less of an instructional library and more of a laboratory notebook charting each technique’s evolution. ### Rethinking Rituals From mandatory clapping to rigid lines at the end of class, Priit questions traditions that steal minutes from training while adding little measurable value. He would rather invest that time in extra rounds or micro-drills that align with the day’s objective. The takeaway for coaches: strip ceremonies back to what demonstrably improves learning; everything else is optional. “If all of your class structure is messed up, then clapping will not save it.” ## Resources #### Quotes - “If you clap every five minutes, it stops being special and starts being noise.” - “My job is to create games where your choices actually matter.” - “We praise community service rounds, help your partner, then play your game.” - “A technique isn’t finished when I can demo it; it’s finished when sixty strangers can do it under pressure.” - “Rituals aren’t bad, but they need the same scepticism we give to techniques.” #### **Links** - [Defensive BJJ](https://www.defensivebjj.com/) - [Priit Mihkelson YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOlEFbjW90lu5sSiMu2ZqIg) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Globetrotter Videos](https://www.bjjglobetrotters.com/category/videos/instructors/priit-mihkelson/) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Fanatics Instructionals](https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/all/fighter_priit-mihkelson) - [Priit Mihkelson Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/priit_mihkelson/ "Priit Mihkelson Instagram") ![Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_priit2_promo-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_priit2_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Vlad Koulikov Interview On Sambo Fusion & Unity Over Division In Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/vlad-koulikov-interview-sambo-fusion-grappling/) **Published:** October 9, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Vlad Koulikov Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/vlad_koulikov_sambo_fusion-1024x576.jpg "Vlad Koulikov Interview › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Vlad Koulikov** about his lifelong quest to blend the best of Sambo with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. We cover the martial art’s military origins, rule-sets, leg-lock culture and ranking system, then dig into Vlad’s coaching philosophy, his time at the famed Sambo 70 academy and the practical idea of “unity over division” in combat sports. By the end, you will understand why Vlad believes a truly well-rounded grappler must be equally at home throwing, pinning and submitting. ## Listen To Vlad Koulikov ### Listen to the Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fusing-sambo-into-the-grappling-universe-unity-over/id1476963733?i=1000494155405) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/01DKyR7u651z9A1l1F2CSG?si=614ad6c38b2342e5 "Spotify") ## Topics ### Origins and Evolution of Sambo Vlad explains that Sambo began as an acronym for “self-defence without weapons” and was formalised in the 1920-30s by three independent pioneers: Spiridonov, Oshchepkov and Kharlampiev. Early police kept a tally of which arrest techniques worked, pushing the style towards pragmatism and later spawning the sportive rules we see today. ### Combat-Sambo Rules & the Leg-Lock Game Because ground exchanges are limited to about a minute and heel-hooks are banned, Sambo players attack quickly with sliding straight ankle-locks, kneebars and dynamic entries from standing. A clean throw or 12-point lead ends a bout, while standing from a leg-lock counts as an escape – factors that mould the discipline’s aggressive flavour. ### Fusing Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu After moving to the USA, Vlad had to learn to feel safe on his back rather than panicking about being pinned. He now aims for a balanced “50-50” skill-split between stand-up and ground, preferring to throw directly past guard or stand up when guard attacks stall. His seminars focus on translating rule-set differences so athletes know when to modify or keep a technique unchanged. ### Training Methodology - From Sambo 70 to Grass-Roots Clubs Growing up at Sambo 70 meant daily academic classes followed by twice-daily wrestling sessions. Coaches emphasised high-volume drilling, playful yet hard training and then personalised refinement once an athlete’s natural tendencies emerged. Vlad now recreates that ethos in smaller American clubs, tailoring reps and situational rounds to each student’s strengths and lifestyle. ### Merit-Based Ranking & Grass-Roots Development The Soviet ranking ladder, Candidate, Master, International Master, Merited Master, earned only through competition success. Vlad values its objectivity yet notes it can deter hobbyists. He welcomes recent belt-style proposals that may grow participation without diluting performance standards. ### Unity Over Division Vlad’s guiding principle is “unity over division”. Rather than arguing about styles, he urges grapplers to integrate complementary systems and judge effectiveness by results, not tribal loyalty. ## Timestamps \[00:00\] – Introduction to Episode 029 \[01:36\] - Creating a Fusion Style of Sambo and Jiu-Jitsu \[02:57\] - Vlad’s History With Sambo \[05:28\] - The Difference Between Training in America and Russia \[08:30\] - The History of Sambo \[11:10\] - Sambo Was Invented for Military \[12:47\] - Sambo Is About Utilizing Leg Locks \[15:18\] - You Can Pin People in Sambo \[16:32\] - Sambo Matches Are Becoming Much Like Judo \[17:37\] - About Chester Back Pin \[18:30\] - Changes in Rules of Combat Sambo \[19:54\] - Guard Work, Turtle Work, and Ground and Pound \[21:58\] - The Striking Elements of Sambo \[22:35\] - How Do People Get Into Sambo \[25:01\] - The Difference Between Sambo and Wrestling \[28:10\] - Origin of the Sambo Dress \[29:33\] - A Typical Russian Wrestling Class \[33:31\] - The Drilling Style \[35:29\] - How Did the Idea of Fusing Sambo and Jiu-Jitsu Occurred to Him \[37:39\] - His Approach of Doing R&D in This Field \[38:37\] - Setting up of Submissions on the Ground \[42:26\] - People From Sambo Background He Would Recommend to Mma \[43:09\] - Working of the Sandbar Ranking System \[46:18\] - The Value of Unity \[54:00\] - The Style of Coaching in Russia ## Topics #### Unity Over Divison Vlad says, unfortunately, people are very tribalistic by nature. There is a good part to doing it. But then there is also depreciation of something that’s not your tribe. So a lot of people in Sambo dislike Jiu-jitsu for bud scooping. And many people are introduced to just like Sambo for being to a brutal sport without finesse as Jiu-Jitsu possesses. That’s a tribalistic way of thinking. And, I’m all about unity versus division. So I thought, why not have both. Not exclusive, but vice versa. They are mutually complementary. ### History Of Sambo #### Three People Working For The Same Goal Sambo was designed as a means of self-defense. It’s an acronym for **SAM**ozashchita **B**ez **O**ruzhiya*.* It’s like self-defense versus self-protection. There are three people that found Sambo, and it will almost like working independently. There was a gentleman called **Viktor Spiridonov.** He was a war veteran, and he had a lame leg. So his emphasis was very much on proper technique, and he was a combat Jiu-Jitsu guy. The second guy was **Vasili Oshchepkov**, who was an orphan raised in the Far East. Because of the geographical location, he moved to Japan and became the first-ever Russian Black Belt. When he came back to Russia, he was at Teach-in Judo. But it was him who started to introduce a different jacket like the Sambo jacket versus the shorts and shoes to Judo. But unfortunately, he got repressed during the infamous purchase of the late 30s (1937). Due to his ties to Japan, he was claimed to be a Japanese spy, and he was eventually executed. And then, a gentleman named **Anatoly Makovetskii** solidified all the knowledge and started to give the names. So he is the one who’s deemed as the father of Sambo, but in reality, three people were working independently for the same goal. #### Sambo Was Invented For Military Sambo was initially invented for the military and Special Forces. And Spiridonov was the one who actually implemented that practice. Anytime the young police of the Soviet Union would arrest somebody, he will apprehend like a violent criminal, they would write down what technique they used. So they kept a tally of techniques that were just fantastic. Eventually, those chokes and strikes and everything else slowly graduated to become a wrestling style for years. And only in the mid-90s combat did Sambo started to be researched again. ### Leglocks In Sambo #### The Reason Why Sambo Has Fame For Leg-locking He says, “Sambo is a very specific leg-like game. It’s not nearly as refined as the modern Jiu-Jitsu game. It’s strictly to the rules. Like for example, we do not do heel hooks. There are no heels in Sambo. But as far as dangling, you can dangle legs, and each way you can do the ribs and the honey holes, and you can attack with all that. And the results are also with ground time restrictions in Sambo. So once the action hits the mat, you’re given a few seconds to see what’s going on. And if there’s no activity (because some people stand up, the wrestler’s referee will send you off), the referee will give you a few seconds to set up a submission. And then, once the submission is locked in, you’re given one minute to finish. So if you do not finish within one minute, no matter how close you are, you’re going to get screwed up back to the neutral. Moreover, in Sambo, if you stand up while you’ve been [leg locked](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) on both feet for no less than two seconds, it is considered an escape because you can kick somebody a punch in theory. Also, in Sambo, we elevate people in and play very refined. You’re given a particular ruleset with a very much of a limit on the ground. That’s why we have a lot of slip-sliding ankle locks. So when you premeditatedly know your attack on sustaining position, you do it to the ground or rolling kneebar things of that nature. Sometimes it looks almost accidental, but it’s not accidental. It’s very much a calculated move and very well pre-rehearsed. So leg legs will not look bad upon and because we did it for a long time. That’s why Sambo has a fame for leg locking. ### Rules of Sambo #### Pinning People In Sambo In Sambo, pin or hold down with your Zhonya [combines a wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) fan and a Judo pin. There are no cradle pins. No Banana Split pins. You can use them to submit, but not to pin. It’s going to be a chest-to-chest side or back-to-chest control, with fixation of your partner’s shoulder blades on the mat. However, you don’t have to pass the guard. He says, “If I’m in somebody’s full guard, then I can get just contract and hold it there. It’s 20 seconds, just like in modern Judo, where you win the match completely after the pin and ensemble. You can score a maximum of four points. It’s either two points for 10 seconds or four points for 20 seconds. And the maximum amount of points is four. So it’s either one full pin or two. After that, if you pin somebody, there is no more scoring. You’re wasting your time, you have to go for a submission.” #### Scoring A Strike In Combat Sambo It’s weird if you don’t score strikes. You either kayo or knock somebody down, then you score, or if you hit somebody flush and they fall, that strike is scored as a throw as a dig down. Also, you can strangle in Combat Sambo, which you cannot do in ensemble wrestling. He says, “In Sambo wrestling, if I stand up in leg lock, it’s a neutral position. The same thing happens with unlocking just like in Judo. If I’m being unlocked and I can stand up and lift somebody off the ground, that’s also neutral, but it does not happen in combat sambo. You have to actually get rid of the submission. If you stand up, submission is still being counted. So outside of strikes, that is the main difference as well.” #### How does the Sambo ranking system work? There are six degrees, very much like Judo cues. So there’s three for juniors three for adults. After you complete those, you become a Candidate Domestos sport. Master of sport means that you won a place in one or a couple of national events. The following hierarchy is called the master sport of the international category, which means that you have won a place in a continental event. So for Russians, it’s a European Championship. For guys from Uzbekistan, it will be the Asian Championship And the last one that Pinnacle, is called marriage the master of sport, which means that you want to be placed in Olympics or World Championship. ## Resources ### Quotes > “Instead of looking for divisions, I look for unity.” > > - Vlad Koulikov > “If you whip somebody hard, sometimes you land in a side control already.” > > - Vlad Koulikov ### Links - [Sambo Fusion Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/sambo_fusion/?hl=en) - [Vlad Koulikov Twitter](https://twitter.com/vladkoulikov?lang=en) - [Sambo Fusion Website](https://sambofusion.com/) - [History Of Sambo](https://evolve-mma.com/blog/the-history-and-origins-of-sambo/ "https://evolve-mma.com/blog/the-history-and-origins-of-sambo/") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Vlad Koulikov - Sambo & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_vlad_promo-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_vlad_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Dr Alex Channon Risk-Taking in MMA & The Distinction Between Fighting and Violence](https://www.sonnybrown.net/alex-channon-risk-taking-mma-fighting-violence/) **Published:** August 10, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Love Fighting Hate Violence](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/love_fighting_hate_violence-1024x576.jpg "Love Fighting Hate Violence › Sonny Brown")I talk to Dr Alex Channon, a Senior Lecturer in Physical Education and Sport Studies at the University of Brighton and on the board of The Martial Arts Studies Research Network. He also manages a group called Love fighting, hate violence which promotes teaching non-violence through martial arts. He authored a paper titled Edgework and Mixed Martial Arts: Risk, Reflexivity and Collaboration in an Ostensibly 'Violent' Sport that explores the nature of violence and [risk in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wrestling-between-risk-taking-risk-aversion-with-coach-matt-lindland/ "Coach Matt Lindland on Wrestling between Risk-Taking & Risk-Aversion") which we discuss in depth. ## Listen To Dr Alex Channon: ### Listen To The Episode: - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/risk-taking-in-mixed-martial-arts-and-the/id1476963733?i=1000487639780) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0LkpaVVIoYPxNkGviyyWmd?si=17f729547f944ec0) ## Topics ### Violence versus violation Channon argues that a punch is only violent when it violates someone. In sparring and competition, both athletes explicitly or implicitly consent to be hit, and referees, rules and glove-touch rituals frame that consent. The action looks the same as a street fight, yet the social meaning and the relationship between participants are fundamentally different. ### Edgework and the search for self-mastery Borrowing from sociologist Stephen Lyng, Channon describes MMA as “edgework”: athletes seek extreme but controllable risk to test composure, competence and identity. Years of training, protective equipment and agreed rules supply enough control that the contest becomes a psychological trial rather than reckless mayhem. Fighters depend on committed opponents to create that risk, turning rivals into collaborators. ### Mutually constructed risk, mutually earned reward Because each competitor needs the other to generate authentic peril, they also share in the payoff. Even the loser often feels satisfied if the bout was hard and fair. Early stoppages, mismatches or opponents who “phone it in” rob both sides of the experience they trained for and leave an emotional void that prize-money cannot fill. ### Cans, journeymen and moral grey zones Low-skill “journeyman” fighters who step in on one day’s notice keep a card alive but erode the edgework ideal. Medics and referees dislike these bouts: they carry concussion risks, cheapen the challenge for the favourite and disappoint fans who expected a genuine contest. Channon sees them as the exception that proves the rule about what fighters truly value. ### Teaching consent through combat *Love Fighting Hate Violence* turns pad drills and tag-style games into lessons on boundaries and respect. One activity divides the mat into zones, punch-only, kick-only, full contact, then prompts children to discuss what “crossing the line” means off the mat. The toolkit shows how martial arts can make implicit ethical skills explicit. ### Referees, safety and the balance of duties Officials juggle athlete welfare, sporting legitimacy and crowd expectation. Stopping a bout too early protects health yet steals a fighter’s hard-won test; letting it run risks serious harm. Channon argues that understanding consent and edgework helps referees explain their split-second choices to critics who only see violence. ## Resources #### Quotes - “For an act to be violent, it needs force and violation; combat sport has force, but the violation is missing.” - “Edgework is finding a risk big enough to reveal who you are, yet small enough that you can control it.” - “I cannot do my edgework unless you genuinely try to beat me; your commitment gives me value.” - “A sparring game can teach consent better than a lecture if you pause and ask why crossing the line matters.” - “When a referee protects you he might save your career, but he also ends the test you trained months to face.” #### Links - [Dr Alex Channon - University of Brighton profile](https://research.brighton.ac.uk/en/persons/alex-channon) - [Edgework and Mixed Martial Arts: Risk, Reflexivity and Collaboration in an Ostensibly ‘Violent’ Sport](https://research.brighton.ac.uk/en/publications/edgework-and-mixed-martial-arts-risk-reflexivity-and-collaboratio) - [Love Fighting, Hate Violence](http://lfhv.org/) ## Dr Alex Channon Interview **Sonny Brown:** I'm here today with Dr Alex Channon, who is an academic. I came across your work, first of all, with a paper entitled Edgework and Mixed Martial Arts, Risk Reflexivity and Collaboration in an Ostensibly "Violent" Sport. Violence is in apostrophes there. That's what we're going to get into. How are you today, Alex? **Alex Channon:** I'm pretty well. Thanks. It's really nice to be on your podcast and thanks for inviting me. I love talking about this stuff. Jump at the chance for anyone to listen their ear off about academic theory of martial arts. **Sonny:** Pleasure is all mine. What drew me to the article is really you're putting forward a case that MMA isn't really violence as we consider traditionally. To do that, you encroach on the topic of or the subject of edge work. I love that even more because I find out that it's roots of that word is in a Hunter S. Thompson novel, which is brilliant. I wonder if you can just give us an overview of what your ideas are and then maybe into the concept of edgework itself. **Alex:** Sure. The idea that Mixed Martial Arts and another combat sports aren't really violent is something that myself and my colleague, Chris Matthews, who I've done a fair bit of work with over the last few years, we've been developing these ideas for a while. It basically stems from different research projects we've done where he does his work in boxing. I did my work in a range of martial arts initially, but then more focusing on mixed martial arts more recently. One of the consistent things that we were hearing from people was, this isn't really violence or I do this, and it's a violent sport but I'm not a violent person. There was always some qualification that separated these activities from what people call "real violence". We find that quite interesting, how is it that people can spend X number of hours a week learning how to be good at beating people up and enjoy beating people up and even perhaps enjoy themselves getting beaten up from time to time and call it, and say it's not real violence or, use some other term to describe it. That sparked our curiosity is as researchers, but of course, doing martial arts ourselves we'd also had this feeling too. This isn't the same as what happens in a street brawl or fisticuffs at the bar or domestic violence situations, even though the actions might be the same, punching kicking, chocking people. The meaning that we associate with that action is quite different. The feeling that we get, the relationships we have with the people we do it with, these are all very different. We decided that we wanted to have a think about this as academics do theorize it, investigate it a bit more. We published a couple of papers, which we challenging other sports academics to think carefully and critically about their use of the word violence. What is violence to begin with? Is it really fair and fitting to apply it to sports such as MMA boxing, even rugby and American football, and so on? When the people who do those forts are saying, look, this isn't actually violent, or this is violence of a very different type and so on. That's where we started. In a nutshell, the core of our argument is that for something to constitute violence, it needs to involve both the physical force that we typically associate with that term, the punching the kicking, but it also has to involve a violation of somebody. If you and I are sparring, we spar within the rules of, let's say we're doing kickboxing, it's perfectly normal and perfectly legitimate. In fact, I would want you to try to kick me. If you didn't try to kick me actually, then it would be an invalid experience for me. There's an explicit consent involved, or maybe it's an implicit consent, but if we meet on the mat, we meet in the ring, I give my agreement to you to try and hit me. I might touch gloves with you. Here's, my fist, here's your face. We're going to touch gloves. Then let me go because it's like a little ritual that symbolizes that. The referee gives us a rules talk before a competitive fight and tells us what's allowed and what's not. There's like formal parameters there that shape what we explicitly consent to in a martial arts context. We've argued that that issue of consent is what differentiates the types of interactions that go on in a martial arts fight or sparring and so on, from violence on the streets or violence in other contexts. It's that consent principle that's, plays a large part in the legal status of combat sports and philosophically and also, from a social sociological and social psychological perspective, consent is a really key underpinning principle that makes this different. That's the main thrust of our argument in a nutshell. **Sonny:** The main thing there seem to be that even though the actions of punching and kicking are the same in a violent compared to what you're putting forward as a nonviolent context, it's the meaning that those actions have behind them. Is that correct? **Alex:** Yes. It's what those meanings tell us about the relationship between the people involved. In a sparring context, you and I are rolling, let's say, and I'm a junior belt and you're a senior belt. I'm going to get something out of this by you beating me, I'm going to get something out of it by you choking me or armbarring me. I'm going to learn, and I want that to happen. Our relationship is shaped around that my dependence on you as my senior or my instructor, perhaps. If you and I get into an altercation outside and you choke me, the relationship that exists between us then is very, very different. I'm then in an object of your hostility and I'm being destroyed by you rather than being taught. Does that make sense? It's that relationship that's really important here. If you think about any context where in which we're doing things that we would normally consider to be violence, think about the relationship that exists between the people who are involved. The objective action is important and certainly, when the objective action includes things that might render you unconscious or cause you lasting damage, we need to think quite carefully about that. Am I really clear on the risks I'm taking when I go to box, for instance? Can I really consent to something I don't understand, et cetera? The core issue here is the relationship that exists between those two people. Is one forcefully violating the other, or are they doing something which they find mutually beneficial? **Sonny:** That does make sense. It's something that is interesting to think about, especially in the context of a sparring practice like kickboxing, where there could be agreed upon intensity where one person will then actually take it a bit further and there's that negotiation might even happen on the fly. Right? **Alex:** Absolutely and it's funny, we were trying to write a paper about this now, how is consent actually worked out, in practice. One of the worrying things is that it often isn't explicitly articulated, I'm okay with you going a little bit harder. We do sometimes do that, but not always. In situations where let's say you've got a new person coming along to the gym, they haven't sparred before, maybe the coach hasn't really got their eye on things and escalates and they throw a heavy shot when they shouldn't. That's when we start to see problems in the gym. It's because of consent. I didn't consent to you loading up on that right hook. That wasn't right. That wasn't fair and I wasn't expecting it. Now we were at odds and now it's not a productive, mutually beneficial exchange. Thinking about consent, it's not to say that all martial arts fighting is never violent. It's to say that when we don't have consent and when our actions aren't explicitly framed by what we've consented to, then it risks falling into that. One of the things that we're trying to argue is that we need to be quite careful with how we approach that as coaches, as practitioners, or we ensure that our training partners are happy with doing A, B, and C. **Sonny:** That's funny. I know that when we have someone new or just everyone in general when we're sparring, the golden rule is only ever hit someone as hard as you're willing to be hit back. That gives a good little rough guideline, but of course, sometimes that isn't good enough because people sometimes don't quite exactly understand how hard they are. They are punching. On the topic then of consent I know that there was Nicholas Dixon who you refer to a fair bit in your paper who was putting forward the idea that really consent can't be given, I think was his main thrust for people competing in a fight because-- Maybe you could be best to explain that. It seems to be a common what would be a more mainstream opinion of violence in MMA, right? **Alex:** Yes. Dixon's argument rests on the idea that the things that happen in MMA are so far beyond the limits of what's acceptable, that it becomes almost a crime against yourself to allow yourself to be put into this situation. The notion that you can't give consent to allow somebody to damage you is basically what underwrites his argument. The main problem I have with that is, he doesn't really attend to what people who do MMA actually think about MMA. The vast majority of the points that he makes, while there is a logic to it philosophically, and this is a difference between the philosophy, academics and the sociology, academics, such as myself when we're interested in what people are actually doing and saying, whereas philosophers tend to, not all of them, but they tend to place less emphasis on the empirical data. They're more in the realms of logical theoretical arguments. What's missing from Dixon really is a sound appreciation of what it actually feels like to be a fighter. What is that motivates people to step into the cage and to take their lumps and to put themselves in harm's way? What do they actually think of their opponents when they're beating them? He consistently uses this term, "they see one another as worthless objects to be destroyed." I have a huge issue with that. I've never- **Sonny:** Me too. **Alex:** You get your trash talking that you get your Conor McGregor's given it all this on the camera, but we know there's a reason for that. That's to get ticket sales. By and large, the vast majority of fights, I've seen the small number of competitive fights I've had in my previous life as a semi-contact kickboxing, I've never seen that. People genuinely believe their opponent was a worthless object to be damaged. Yes, it looks like that as an outsider, but when you step inside this world, when you listen to what people in the world are actually saying about it, then that perspective starts to fall away. I'm sure that Dixon if he was in on this conversation would have a pretty robust argument to what I'm saying but that's the main issue that I have with it. It's devoid of that voice of people who actually trained and experienced this firsthand and the meanings that they bring to the sport. **Sonny:** I'd agree with you there because I too, would consider myself not a violent person, but yet I spend a good portion of every week teaching how to throw elbows or punches or kicks or choking, and all that good stuff. I'm well aware that that is the perception that people would have of the sport. Very often when I tell people what I do, their first instinct is to reply along with something of lines, "Oh, you don't look like a fighter." I take it, that's because the idea they've got in their head is like something from the movies, basically, the stereotype. To me, it seemed like a big portion of what your argument was to bridge that gap, then is that fighters are getting something out of the experience. That was where that notion, I think of edgework comes into play, where it's the idea of extreme sports and pushing boundaries for a valuable experience in a valuable goal. Is that kind of correct? **Alex:** Yes. That's in terms of my own thinking, this conversation has followed the lines of it quite nicely actually. The initial idea of the interaction or study of fights and what frames those relationships, consent, et cetera. That was what we started, then encountering work like Dixon's this very strong critique, which we thought, oh this thing's wrong with that. Then I came across edgework or at least I revisited it. I read it when I was an undergraduate and pretty much forgotten about it for a few years and came across the work again. It seemed like this was the missing link in some of this theory that if fighters aren't engaging in fighting purely for money, or because they hate each other, what do they get out of it? Specifically, with respect to sports like MMA which are, I don't like using the word extreme, but I think we can agree, it's towards the more extreme end of combat sports in the sense of it's risky, it's injurious the kinds of things that can happen, though there's more variation in the ways you can get hurt and so on. What is it that motivates people if it isn't those things that we've already dismissed. Edgework is a really nice concept. It won't work for everyone. It won't fit every fighter that steps in a cage or in the ring, but I do think it has a lot of explanatory potential, particularly. This is when I wrote this paper, I went to every study that I could find that was ethnographic. People who have participated in MMA themselves as researchers, as well as interviews with fighters. What is the voice from inside the sport saying about this phenomenon? Actually, from the theoretical work on edgework, it lines up very, very well with the empirical work on MMA. Things like seeking out the most extreme challenge you can find, wanting to push yourself beyond what most people think is physically impossible. Having done other sports, like kickboxing or Judo, and wanting to go beyond and have something more, something that's even more of a challenge and pushes you out of the normal reality of your day to day life. All of these experiences, they tell us a few things about the motivation, which is to seek out those experiences which give us the chance to test ourselves like nothing else can. That's what edgework is all about. It's about finding an extremely dangerous risk that gives you the opportunity to test your mettle in the face of overwhelming odds. Can I really defend myself against someone who's really trying to beat me? You can't really answer that question in a semi-contact karate match. You can answer that question, at least to an extent in the confines of a professional mixed martial arts fight. That gives us some explanation as to why mixed martial artists do mixed martial arts, but it also points toward something very interesting about their relationship with each other. You remember from before when I was saying that the relationship that exists between the fighters is very important here in the whole fighting violence thing. I can't do my mixed martial arts edgework without you genuinely trying to beat me. This experience that I'm hungry for, this self-affirming, very, very positive existential search for my true self or whatever I want to frame it, I need you to genuinely try to hit me and beat me unconscious, in order to get that experience. If you don't try, then I don't get it. Our relationship then becomes in that moment where we look like we're very, very strong antagonists trying to knock each other's heads off, actually, we're doing each other a service, which is to build towards that opportunity to experience edgework. **Sonny:** Which I guess is when fighters will congratulate each other at the end of the fight, to an outsider, it might seem just strange why that would even be possible, but in my own sake, most of the opponents that I've had keep in touch every now and again and there's no ill will or anything like that. It's they did us a favor by actually stepping up and fighting when-- People can drop out of fights and it doesn't happen and you end up all disappointed, a training camp gone to waste. I guess that's getting that mutual benefit from each other rather than an enemy or what was it, a useless object. \[laughter\] **Alex:** Worthless object? I just love the language you use it, man. By love, I don't mean love. That notion that opponents are there to help each other, it's inspiring. It's much more obvious. I'm there to learn, and my partner is there to help me learn, to teach me, and whatnot. If I'm doing a self-defense class, yes, I want to be able to defend myself so you need to scare me and you need to intimidate me, you need to actually try and hit me. Otherwise, I will get the benefit of becoming better at defending myself. In competitive match, of course, again, to go back to the qualify for before, not everyone is going to have the same motivation. Not every fight is going to fall into this category, but I think from what I've seen from the research that I've done, going to events, speaking to fighters, and looking at other people's studies as well, it does seem to be a very normal motivation and a very normal state of affairs that you and I as fighters are doing each other a favor by stepping into the cage. Certainly, at the lower levels of participation where we're not looking for big paydays. If you beat me, I don't lose sponsors, and I don't lose out on opponent, person, whatever. Even at the high levels, you do have that commercial motivation. Still, that needs an opponent, willing opponent, especially as you say, to step in at the last minute and save a fight. We talk about professional fighters, you're talking about a big payday to breaking even for most of the money with the expenses of training. In that can be the whole edgework relationship. There is still a mutual dependency, which we need to take into account if we're thinking about a list of moral issues. **Sonny:** Continuing on with that, I guess one of the things I really liked in your paper was the idea of reframing the violence as then a mutually constructed risk between the two competitors. Can you explain that idea a little bit better for us? **Alex:** Yes. If we're calling the action of a mixed martial arts fight violence. The reasons that I would say we need to think past that is usually the term violence, not always but most often, the term violence gets associated with quite strong moral condemnation. This is one of the reasons I think that most people who I've spoken to who say, "Oh, I'm not really a violent person." That's one of the reasons there are pains to make that clear because to be a violent person is to be dangerous, it's to be potentially a criminal, it's to be bad for one of a better term. We do need to think if we're going to attach these labels to sports, even if, as an academic, I might not always want to conflate violence with something that's bad. People generally do see violence as bad. There is a desire to clarify and to refine that sort of thing. As with the theoretical ideas we mentioned earlier, this notion of edgework leads us to thinking about the action of fights in a different way. It serves as well to think well, if it's not violence, then we might as well come up with some other way of describing it. Mutually constructed risk is a bit of a mouthful, might need to have worked a bit harder on that, maybe, but I think it does explain what the meaning that gets attached to that action is for the people who are doing it. It's not that I'm engaging in this fight because I enjoy destroying somebody else, or because I want them to try and damage me for its own sake, I enjoy this and I go into this and the meaning that I take from it is that it's a risk that allows me to test myself. Again, that notion that I need you to construct that risk comes in. A mutually constructed risk, I think is a better and certainly more adequate way of explaining the action of MMA than using this quite problematic term, violence. **Sonny:** Yes because of course, there's so much meaning of the negative connotation attached to violence. I like the term mutually constructed risk and a couple of other people I was talking to about it enjoyed it too. Even if it is a mouthful, it's certainly I think it's got a good ring to it. There's that idea then that people will get into MMA as a way of developing character and showing character. We do that through the process of developing our skills in the sport. Is that a part of the edge work process itself or is that really just confined to the competition now? **Alex:** The guy who initially articulated this concept is derived from Hunter Thompson's work, but it's a chap called Steven Lin, who's a sociologist who's been writing about sports and other extreme activities for quite a while. In his conceptualization of edgework, there are numerous components to it. The most important one is this thing we've already discussed, seeking out extreme risks that allow us to test ourselves into seeing what we really made off, and so on. What that involves is giving yourself the opportunity to demonstrate mastery in the face of chaos. In order to demonstrate that mastery, that self-control of your emotions that remaining calm and being tested, and so on and so on, you need to have the skills to allow yourself to exist in that environment, the physical skills. Edgeworkers of all stripes will spend a lot of time preparing. They spend a lot of time studying, learning those physical skills, developing strategies. They will get the right equipment in place, they'll do their research, they basically want to make sure that they don't encounter risks that they can't control. Because the point of edgework is to put yourself in a situation that you do have the capacity to resolve, but you're going to be placed under so much stress that you test yourself in doing that, resolving that situation. For MMA fighters, you wouldn't go into the cage without practicing Jiu-Jitsu because you know, that you need to do that in order to succeed. Of course, some people do, and they don't generally tend to do very well. Whether that's standup or striking, sorry, I'm grappling there that they're lacking, you do need to be well versed in the vocabulary of the activity that you're pursuing for edgework in order to actually use it to test yourself to that extreme level. The skills trading element is a central part of edge working in all variety of things. In so much as this notion of preparing for risk so that you know, that you can physically overcome that risk. It becomes more of a mental challenge, that test of self, rather than a test of your skill. As for the community and the identity belonging, proving yourself, again, this is something that's written about in links, other work, and other people who've used the edgework concept. It's not necessarily the point of edgework. It's not that people do edgework in order to get other people's approval. There is some theoretical difference between edgework and other conceptual frameworks. One of Ling's papers, he compares edgework with another famous sociologist, Erving Goffman, who's written a lot about identity and performance that we put on a particular performance in certain social spheres to get recognition and respect from other people. Certainly, there could be an element of this, that presentation of self and that performance of the desired identity in a martial arts context. To try and win status and to win respect. In terms of edgework as its own concept, it's not the central part of it. It's more that that respect, it develops alongside edgework when you recognize other edgeworkers, this is someone who's also tested themselves to the extreme and shown that they've got what it takes. You have respect for them because you also know what it takes. It's not that you are doing it specifically to win that respect if that makes sense. **Sonny:** Yes. It does. There's two portions of that. The first part you were talking about it's really not just risk for risk's sake, it's got to be a well-planned, well-calculated attempt to control those elements of risk. Is that correct? **Alex:** Absolutely, yes. If you're talking about skydiving as a form of edgework, you don't get people skydiving without a parachute. You obviously uninte **Alex:** lligible 00:27:23 the equipment that you need in order, to overcome the challenge that this involves. It's no being an adrenaline junkie or wanting to live on the edge. It's about wanting to give yourself the opportunity to demonstrate to yourself as much to others, your true character, your true self. **Sonny:** That then makes sense with all the training that we do, and that has to be done really. It elevates it beyond what someone might do if they took a flight on a day's notice with no training. As you might say, we can't really look at them as another edge worker which brings up something else you touched on in your paper, which was the idea of what you call independent fighters but what I guess might more colloquially be known as cans or flat as we maybe aren't putting in the effort of others. Let's just say. Can you expand a bit more upon that idea then and how that you mentioned would rob some fighters of the satisfaction of doing that edgework? **Alex:** The cans and the crush matches is sometimes referred to I suppose. In the UK at the moment, I'm not sure if it's the same in Australia, I would imagine probably is if the organization of mma is any thing like it is here. It's quite common for these very low skilled type of journeyman fighter that travels around to earn a quick buck for filling in for people who've pulled out the last minute. They don't put any resistance in or some of them might, but there's no real chance that this guy is going to win the fight. They're purely there to keep a fight on the card. Promoters, generally that the lower level promoters, seem quite happy to employ them. Not all of the promoters I must say. The study that I've recently finished, which was about a different topic, it was about medical provision in the sports, I was seeing this phenomenon through the eyes of the medics who were there and they really didn't like it. The amount of risks these guys were taking with their health fighting sometimes three times in a weekend, getting the crap kicked out of them each time. The promoters that I encountered, some of them wouldn't employ these guys, but a lot of them did, purely to protect ticket sales. You've got a fighter who sold a lot of tickets and if he gets pulled from the card at the last minute, his fans are going to want refunds. It's going to damage your reputation and all the rest of it. They do employ them quite often. These guys, they take fights far more regularly than they should. Of course, they aren't taking the beatings in training because they aren't training and they're not taking that much of a beating on the night because they just fall within 30 seconds. The fact that they're getting properly tuned up, some of them each time they get in the cage, it does pose a bit of a risk to thinking about brain damage, concussions, and so on, and accumulation of repeated strong blows in a very short space of time. It does happen. With respect to its implications for edgework, generally speaking, and again, this is a generalization, it might not be true of everybody in the field, most people in MMA don't look too kindly on this thing. They don't really appreciate what these guys represent. They know that it's there as a quick fix to keep a card, looking reasonably healthy. Of course, if you have done a training camp, it might be better than nothing, but you step in the cage and do something, even if it's over in 20 seconds. Generally that they're not looked on with much favor because their precedence it detracts from the opportunity to really test yourself. If I've trained for six months and I've seen these developments in my abilities and then I've put in a really grueling few weeks of a training camp, I'm having my first fight and the experience is over that quickly. I know, and everybody else knows it wasn't a real fight, then it certainly isn't the same as if I'd had a fair match with somebody who is at my level. There is a sense that perhaps their presence detracts from the opportunity to experience edgework. In the paper, I argued that this was one of those exceptions that proves the rule about what motivates fighters and what the relationship should be between two evenly matched opponents in the ring. **Sonny:** Then along with the idea of it being a mutually constructed risk that these two people are undertaking, you could also look at it like there's a mutually constructed reward that both parties have to bring to reap the full benefits of the experience of a fight. Would that be one way of looking at? **Alex:** Yes. I think that's a good way to put it. Even if I lose, I've still have gone out for three rounds or however long the fight is where I'm at is or whatever. We've put ourselves through our paces. We've really proven that we've got what it takes. For some people even getting into the cage, is a victory in itself. To come that far in your training and to not back out from nerves and so on. Even if I lose, I've still experienced that thing that's really valuable to me. Certainly, I wouldn't have known to get that reward without my opponent. Even if they beat me, I still got that thing that I wanted. Of course, I might be upset, I might be in tears. I'll reflect on it as that was my first fight, and I learned so much. I learned about what I'm really capable of et cetera. Sure, I think there's certainly a mutually constructed reward. If you're a professional, the reward might be financial, particularly if you're developing a career as well as that the experience of the fight. Certainly, at amateur level, I think the rewards are far more intrinsic and without your opponent, you're not going to be able to get them. **Sonny:** I think there's definitely that change of motivation or just those different opportunities for motivation when it turns into the professional realm. It does seem like there's although intrinsic motivation especially, of course, at the amateur level that would even draw those professionals into the sport, to begin with. In other conversations I've had with fighters touch on if people are doing this just for the money, just for them to make it professionally, they're going to have a hard time because you got to get through a lot of low paying fights first before that slight chance of making big money even gets put on the table. **Alex:** Of course, yes. **Sonny:** One thing you talk about in your paper too is then how people will or the idea of those lower-skilled fighters will then have the onlookers or other people detracting from the experience as well. That was one thing I thought of was that for me, if I see someone beat a can and then they celebrate a bit too much, a bit too happy with themselves, it could be a reflection on me that I'm like, "Come on, come on, settle down, settle down, I saw that other blocks record, and maybe you should just be a bit more subdued in your celebration." Is that anything you'd pick picked up along with other people or is that just my own problem? **Alex:** That's really funny, you should bring that up. Actually, I have my day job, I'm a lecturer. The majority of my work I'm teaching and I teach on a PE program, and sport management and sport studies. I have a module that's in martial arts and we do a little bit of practical. We go on field trips to the boxing gym and the MMA gym, have a karate guy come in and do some stuff. We've got some practical things going on. We also have quite a lot of theory where we talk through some of the stuff that I've done, and there's plenty of other martial arts studies literature that we worked through. We had a lecture on this sort of topic a couple of years ago, and we actually addressed this point. What is worth celebrating as a fighter if we take all of this into account? We watched a video of a guy. A guy that I don't know him that well, I've met him. When I first met him, he was like "I am a pro fighter, I've had, and my record." Oh, that's really impressive, but I thought, this guy is the real deal. Then I saw his videos of who he's fought and they're all cans. It's just quite funny using it as a teaching resource to get the students to reflect on these questions of motivation, and intrinsic versus extrinsic, and that wider structure of the sport. I would say it's a good question, and I don't think you're alone at all in raising an eyebrow at the overenthusiastic celebrations of those fighters. **Sonny:** I know it's one of those things that it's only to the trying to either can pick that up. It's maybe for the majority of people in the crowds, they might not see the other person's record or they just might not notice the skill disparity and then for them it's just winning to win. It's really just you can look at someone else who knows and goes, given a note of that was a bit easier for them, wasn't it? It's that undercurrent of understanding there. Then the overall idea then of the paper that you've put forward is that these negotiations are going on then constantly with people inside the sport and it has to be outlined then to receive the full benefits other than a monetary gain. It's, we both competitors have to come into the sport, looking for that reward in a good fight with each other. Then that offers up those moments of self-reflection, and in time of introspection back on training and how you performed, and how you handled that risk. I guess that reflection and that experience then is where the value can come from. Is that round in the right ballpark? **Alex:** Yes, I wouldn't say that both fighters necessarily need to have that as their primary or only motivation. Certainly, if somebody throws a fight for instance, and it's ruined it for the other person and if you both do share that motivation, then I suppose it would be that notion of community and friendship that forms after a fight. If I lose and I was only really in it for the paycheck, or I was only really in it because I want to improve my record and find someone better and I've lost, maybe there'll be some sour grapes. I wouldn't really look at it in the same way that my opponent might who was really genuinely seeking that introspection and that chance to demonstrate autonomy and so on and so on. I wouldn't have thought that it needs both people to really be aligned with that motivation. Although, I think in most cases, most fighters probably are, even if they have other things going on as well that drive them. Certainly, when you've got those very one-sided matches with the independent fighters, the cans, or when you have a match that perhaps somebody isn't really taking very seriously, there are numerous ways you can go wrong, and early stoppage as well. Nobody likes an early stoppage. Least of all the fighter who got eye punched and feels fine because they've been robbed by circumstance. I didn't include that many notes from the fieldwork in that paper because of lack of space. There were several examples. I'm sure, you and your listeners will be familiar with these situations that fight nights where there's been an eye poke or there's a heavy bleed. If it's an amateur to fight, usually the medics and the ref will maybe be a little bit more hesitant to let them continue even if they say they're fine. You do get that really strong anticlimax, and you can feel for these guys because they've been no fault of their own, they've been deprived of what they've been working for. **Sonny:** Certainly, a few things come to mind when you mentioned that. Actually, I was just reminded then of something that I did myself, where I guess there was a fight that I was taking a lot of punches and the ref didn't stop it, I ended up coming back and winning it. I remember thanking the ref for, "Oh, thanks for letting that go on and allowing me to get that victory." As you're saying I'm thinking, I guess to any outsider that would seem like a weird kind of gesture to say, "Thanks for allowing me to take some additional shots to the head and give an opportunity to come back and win." **Alex:** Yes, absolutely. I think referees face such a dilemma in those situations because the majority of them have been fighters themselves, haven't they? They know what it's like. They empathize and they know that if they stop it early it deprives you of that experience. It possibly deprives you of a chance for victory, and that becomes important for your livelihood if you're a pro. They also know that it deprives the fans who are paying and financially supporting the sport of a good and a more climactic end. They have to balance all of that with the stated commitment. Which all the referees I spoke to, all of them said front and center, the most important thing is the fighters welfare. I'm the only one that rests on my shoulders because it's very rare, isn't it, for a corner throw in the towel, and it's very rare for a fighter to tap strikes or something. The referee has the primary responsibility. Yes, the pressure they're under to balance all of those competing risks, if you like and make decisions in split seconds. I don't envy them for sure. **Sonny:** No, I would not be that keen to start getting into refereeing, but never say never. Seems like that could be another element of risk, accepting risk going on. It's useless to do that. **Alex:** Absolutely. It's one of the things that I haven't got around to it yet with the study that I'm currently writing up the research on medics. Couple of papers out on that now, but I want to write something about the referees that I encounter because I think it's a fascinating job. The decisions they have to make and the situations they make them in, and all the risks they have to balance while processing that, it's remarkable. Maybe next year I'll have something out about referees, fingers crossed. **Sonny:** Beautiful. I'll make sure to read that as well. Finishing on from that, or moving on from the ideas that you've put forward there, what can people be doing themselves to help reframe that idea of violence in the sport we love? I know you've got a organization called Love Fighting Hate Violence, that aims to potentially do that? **Alex:** Yes. Love Fighting Hate Violence is something that Christopher Matthews, my colleague and I, we set this up a few years ago now. Initially, we wanted it to be an online presence for fostering this kind of debate. We've also written a coaching tool kit which we've designed so that coaches can explicitly use martial arts games and activities that involve martial arts training to specifically teach young people about consent, but about respecting your own, as well as others limits and being explicit about what you're okay with. Basically trying to use that knowledge that a lot of fighters, a lot of martial artists, have about the difference between fighting that isn't violent, and fighting the is violent. That knowledge is often quite tacit, it's often implicit. It's not something we spend a lot of time maybe discussing it overtly. They're trying to use that knowledge as a way to make that explicit and to teach consent to young people. Which we hear a lot about the positive role of martial arts in reducing bullying for instance. Generally encouraging people to be more disciplined and to be more respectful, and all the rest of it. We thought that with Love Fighting Hate Violence, LFHV, we can try and do something that is purposefully aimed towards that rather than just assuming it happens on its own. If you put on a boxing club and you get some kids alone, they will become respectful. Not necessarily. Especially like they only go once a week, but if you do something purposeful, you specifically work towards those learning outcomes that you want, then maybe we'll have some more tangible and robust results for that. That's where were are at the moment. We've written this coaching tool kit and we've distributed to a few of our other partners in the project. We're hoping to eventually do a study on how well this is worked, and refine it and make a version two and push that out more widely. **Sonny:** I really like that idea because as you say, it's accepted that it's just an intrinsic part of learning martial arts, but everyone can probably think of an example where it hasn't quite panned out that way with someone. I do wonder if it's something with MMA, where some of that philosophy maybe was thrown out along with a lot of other traditions martial arts techniques. Where all the discipline and respect, even though I do believe that's still taught in MMA, it's maybe not as much a forefront as what it is or was in other traditional martial arts. Is that something that you would consider a possibility as well? **Alex:** Yes. I don't think you're a million miles away really, my own take on this is that it's highly specific to the gym that you're talking about, the instructor, the local school. We've got fairly well-established notions that traditional, particularly Asian martial arts, are grounded in a culture of respect and discipline and so on. Equally, you could have schools where you get taught karate and you don't get taught those things, or to borrow from The Karate Kid and we clear it up, Cobra Kai. Which is if you've watched the YouTube series. **Sonny:** I have. **Alex:** Where they have reinventing, I love that by the way, let's talk about that for hours as well. They're reinventing it and rescuing the legacy of Cobra Kai, and that approach to martial arts as being valuable. It's not just about showing respectable times. Actually, you'd sometimes need to go out and stand up for yourself by beating up your bullies. There's various ways that we can articulate what it means to be a fighter, and why we should train to fight, and I wouldn't want to say that categorically traditional martial arts do this well, and MMA does it less so. Although you might be right, as a general observation, there's less of a tradition in MMA really, and less importance attached to that in MMA. Again, historically speaking, but from one school to the next, it could vary a great deal. **Sonny:** Yes, that makes sense that it is going to come down to the culture within the gym that is going to be the main determinant of that. While I feel that in our gym that it certainly is an element, and it is with the focus just being on effective techniques, and whatever works use it, it does seem to be something that you're not going to spend valuable training time worrying about the philosophy of something when you better just be doing the things that work and they're going to win you the fight potentially and in any way. I do like that idea. What would be, if you don't mind, maybe one of the examples of in the coaching tool kit that people could put into practice? **Alex:** Yes, sure. That's not a problem. I can probably send you a couple of copies if you'd like, which will sort out later I guess. **Sonny:** Yes, please. **Alex:** The important thing is, as you said, why would you waste valuable time on something that's all about philosophy and not about training? What we've got here it's not something that's going to make you a better fighter per se. This is specifically geared towards, I'd say, younger adults and children really. It's supposed to be a fun way of teaching them things like respect, and consent and what have you. We draw on the idea of values-based teaching, which my colleagues at University of Brighton have been using for many years, Football For Peace program. Which is a similar idea, use football-related games to teach a set of values. One of the activities- which one should I talk about? There's a game where we divide the space into four quadrants. In the first quadrant, you might remember this sort of thing from PE from back in the day. We do this all the time when I'm teaching PE students. We've got these four quadrants divided by a rope or by coins, or whatever we want to use markings the on the gym floor. In one quadrant we're only doing punches, in another quadrant we're only doing kicks. In the third one we can do punches and kicks, and in the fourth one, let's say we'll just throw elbows, for instance. One person's on the pads, one person is there doing the movement and you move around in your pairs around these four quadrants. As you cross that line, you then need to pay attention to that and you just switch to only doing kicks, or you could do it where you're not using pads but one person's the attacker one person's the defender and so on. You use that little game, you get them doing it for a minute or two, and then you use that game as a way to think about that notion of crossing the line. What does it mean to cross the line? We say that all the time, don't we? What does it mean to cross the line? Then you get thinking about younger children, you get some answers and it gives you a chance to have a quick little discussion about what crossing the line means. Then we could talk about things like is there an appropriate space for you to punch people? In the game, it was that first quadrant. In a gym, it's okay to punch in the gym. If you go into the boxing ring, it's okay to punch there. What about if we go outside? No, it's not okay. It's a way of just basically using these games as a physical metaphor, if you like, to help teach those lessons. Again, this isn't about martial arts training. It's about things that martial arts coaches or PE teachers who do martial arts, things that you can use to make a fun and imaginative way to teach children about these values. **Sonny:** I really liked that idea. I think that's great. Especially for youth and teens classes. That sounds like a wonderful way to help impart, as you were saying, physical metaphor, impact some knowledge of these topics in a fun and engaging way. I think that's great. I'd love to see that the rest of those games that you've got. **Alex:** Yes, sure. Happy to share. We do want to make a digitized version, but we've been holding off on it because say we want to refine it a little bit after we've done some evaluation of it and we'd rather not send it far and wide until we're really confident in what we've produced. Yes, I'm happy to send you a copy of that and have a look through. **Sonny:** Yes. Sounds great. Then, so if people want to get involved with Love Fighting Hate Violence, what should they do to try and help you out in supporting that? **Alex:** Well, it's been a while since we've been doing anything on the Facebook and on the blog and so on, but Christopher and I keep saying we're going to kickstart this again. If we've got folks listening who got something to say about this stuff, anything to share, whether that be a reflection on something that's happened recently in the world of combat sports. Whether it's something to do with lessons that they've used like the one I just described that they know can be useful, anything that might fit on our blog. Just to say we haven't updated it in a fair while, but if you do go on lfhv.org you'll see on the blog is a few entries there about 1,000-2,500-word long mini-essays. If anyone wants to write for us, that's great. We always love to receive that. Give us a like on Facebook and a follow on Twitter, they might give us a little bit of a reminder that we need to update those things and get moving with it. Otherwise, you watch this space really. We're hoping that in the new year once the lockdown hopefully is over, we'll be moving forward again with the evaluation of the coaching toolkit and hopefully have more tangible a little bit later on. **Sonny:** Beautiful. I really like that idea. I've really been really enjoying this discussion, Alex. It's been great. I'm wondering if people want to get in touch with you, what is the best way that they should go about doing that? **Alex:** Drop me an email and that's the best way, a.channon@brighton.ac.uk. If you Google my name and University of Brighton, you'll find all my contact details. Via email is definitely the best way. I'm always checking my emails way too often than I should . Always happens. **Sonny:** That's what we all do probably. That's been wonderful. I'm very interested in those other upcoming studies that you mentioned you're undertaking, especially, if we go back to the start, when we were talking about how the negotiation process takes place during sparring. That's something that's always fascinated me, so I'll be very interested to see what you come up with in that. **Alex:** Brilliant. Well, that's a good little bit of motivation for me to put that to the top of my agenda then. It's like a loose first draft to revisit, very much a first draft so a lot of work, but we'll get there by the end of the summer, hopefully on that one. **Sonny:** Beautiful. Because yes, it's always, that's just fascinated me how it's all worked out in sparring. Do it every week and it's still sometimes it just astounds me how it all plays out. **Alex:** Yes. People who've been training for years and years still get it wrong and you still find those kind of moments where you cringe at your own .... **Sonny:** Beautiful, Alex. I'll let you go and you have a wonderful day. **Alex:** Well, thank you so much, Sonny. Thanks again for having me on. Yes. Cheers. **Sonny:** Pleasure's all mine. Thank you. You have been listening to the Sonny Brown Breakdown, until next time. You can visit sonnybrown.net to find out more ways to break it down. ![Dr Alex Channon - Love Fighting, Hate Violence](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/drchannon_tsbb_thumbnail-1024x1024.jpg "drchannon_tsbb_thumbnail › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Jonathan Brookins Interview On Life, Addiction, Martial Arts & Yoga](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) **Published:** August 1, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jonathan Brookins Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jonathan_brookins_mma-1024x576.jpg "Jonathon Brookins MMA › Sonny Brown")I talk to Jonathan Brookins. Jonathan is a veteran of the WEC where he faced Jose Aldo and the UFC where he was the winner of The Ultimate Fighter Season 12 where Georges St Pierre coached him along with assistant coaches Firas Zahabi and [John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/down-under-danaher-peurto-rico-pro-grappling-craig-jones-bjj/ "Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu From Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment"). [Jonathan Brookins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Brookins "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Brookins") stood out in the show as being a unique & thoughtful personality, very humble and kind, and his life outside of fighting is equally compelling. We discuss his early days fighting in Florida, his time in the Ultimate Fighter house and his decision to take a break from the UFC to travel to India to attend a silent meditation retreat. While there, he helped a group of local children go to school and unfortunately had a scare as a snake bit him. We also discuss his battles with addiction, his fascination with the mystic and philosopher George Gurdjieff and the valuable lessons he takes from martial arts practice and applies to life. ### Listen To Jonathon Brookins - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ultimate-fighter-of-life-addiction-martial-arts/id1476963733?i=1000486761505 "Apple Podcasts") - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4EySKkjv7HQoSlhcKvEvHS?si=08ac0fadc6bc4536) ### Timestamps \[01:33\] - His Experience of Living in New York \[03:09\] - What Draw Him Towards MMA \[05:04\] - How Did He Start His Initial Training \[07:48\] - His Fight With José Aldo in WEC \[13:14\] - The Lesson He Learned From UFC \[15:04\] - His Addiction to Weed in the Initial Years of His Career \[19:26\] - His Fight With Dustin Poirier \[20:59\] - He Shares Some Bad Past Incidents With Dana White \[23:57\] - About the Book Jonathan Livingston Seagull \[26:09\] - The Reason Why He Lost His First Fight \[26:50\] - His Decision to Get Rid of His Addiction \[28:21\] - The First Fight He Won, but the Bonus Was Given to Someone Else \[32:09\] - His Decision to Go to India \[35:41\] - The Time When a Snake in India Bit Him \[41:29\] - His Experience in Rishikesh \[44:55\] - The End Result of Yoga in Dharmashala \[45:34\] - How He Helped Some Kids to Go to School in India \[51:54\] - The Process of Silent Meditation \[55:50\] - His Struggling Days \[59:10\] - About the Book Meetings With Remarkable Men \[1:03:20\] - Self-Recognition Exercises That He Recommends \[1:06:23\] - The Process of Intentional Suffering Spurs Growth \[1:09:22\] - The Other Side of the Process of Cutting Weight \[1:13:27\] - Change Yourself to Change the World \[1:15:48\] - The Best Way to Connect to Jonathan ### Topics #### **What Drew Him Towards Fighting** He says, "Fighting for me was always a bit of a means to an end. I never grew up as a person that ever wanted to fight, and I never even really wanted to wrestle. They weren't my immediate choices. It wasn't the sport that I initially set out to do in high school. But I didn't make the basketball team. I was a bit small. So the only sport left to play was wrestling. And then I ended up getting good at it. I got a college wrestling scholarship. But I didn't finish college. Then again, I was left with limited options. And the only thing for a kid who only acquired wrestling skills to do at 20 years old was fighting. So, I just went for it." He says, "Sometimes the things that we don't necessarily want are the best things for us. So fighting and wrestling were the things that were the best things for me to grow as a person, but they weren't immediately the things that I wanted." #### **His Initial Fight Training** He initially started with a fighter named Crazy Horse. Now a lot of people know him as Charles Bennett. They were training in a small town in Florida. He was the only real fighter in the city. He says, "I just followed his lead more or less. He was a free spirit and marched by the beat of his drum. I could relate to that even though we were very different as people. So that was very cool. And, in Florida, the fight scene, back in the day, was like American Top Team versus Florida. So I had many good fights down in South Florida. I also trained with Dean Thomas. I even went down to Greg Jackson when I was younger. I coached with most of the top teams and America Top Team. So I came up with a lot of different squads when I was younger." #### **His Fight With Jose Aldo** Recalling the night when he fought with Jose Aldo, he says, "Fighting in the WEC was interesting. It was an interesting night of fights. There were six of us 145 pounders fighting that night. Mike Brown was fighting Uriah Faber. I was fighting Jose Aldo. So there were six of us that night. And then I was like, wow, out of the six of us 145 pounders tonight, one of us is going to be the best in the world. At the time, Uriah Faber was on the top. But I thought between me and Aldo, one of us had a chance to be the kingpin. Aldo wasn't a big name at the time. And my mindset for going into that was like me and Aldo are a good match for each other. Looking back at my fight career I never really knew how to fight. I was not a great technical striker, or anything. I was always just kind of going by instinct, in and out of that instinct. I was pretty dang scrappy. And so I was able to pull off a lot of wins. So I never counted myself out against anybody." #### **Damage Caused By Aldo's Kicks** "Aldo's kicks hurt, but the big deal is after the fight. Your legs are injured. But this was my first time in a fight, like actually getting so much damage to my legs that I couldn't move in the fight anymore. After the first round, I remember going back to my corner, and Tito Ortiz was in my corner. And he's pulling out the stool for me to sit down on, and I couldn't sit down. I can't bend my leg. That definitely permanently damaged my leg. And to this day, it'll still fill up with fluid. It's like you're literally getting hit with a baseball bat in the leg for 15 minutes. It was one of the most painful experiences." #### **The Lesson He Learned From UFC** He says, 'the lesson I learned with the UFC stuck with me to this day as more of a social experience. At that time, I smoked a lot of weed. That was just who I was from the time I was 20 years old. By the time I fought Jose, I was 24 years old. I just smoked a lot of weed. That was just my coping mechanism. I had lost a family member. And so even when I fought Jose, you look at the fighting, I got this long hair, and it's in my face, and I was stoned. I smoked just a couple of minutes before going out to the fight. And I knew that wasn't right. I was a young kid, though. I wasn't going to listen to anybody. I was going to let somebody tell me you shouldn't do this. I was like, you know, it's working for me. Who am I to listen to you guys? But when you fast forward to the Ultimate Fighter season 12 tryouts and all of this. I started to rethink my strategy. Like, how I wanted to approach life and fighting, and I told myself, I'm going to stop smoking weed. This was like an internal thing that I put into myself. This is how bad I want to be on this show. #### **His Decision To Get Rid Of Addiction** He says, because weed was so important to me to function, I had so much anxiety and angst and all of that, that dealing with life without it seemed almost impossible. But I was like, this is how bad I want to be on this show. And then, sure enough, I got on the show. #### **His First Fight** During that time, he was reading the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull. He connected so well with the book that he was crying. He says, "Two weeks before the fight. I just started crying, and the tears helped. I just went back into my room, and I went to sleep. And then the next morning, I woke up, and I was like, all right, you're sober, man. Two weeks ago, I got to train for the fight, and I ended up barely beating Michael Johnson. He had me in deep trouble at the beginning of the fight. He was beating the trash out of me for the first round. After the fight, we're in the palms, in Ariadne Celeste, and the people want me to fight Jeremy Stephens. So I'm trying to get ready for the Jeremy Stephens fight. And I break the orbital in my eye. And that was probably the lucky thing. I went to take a shot on somebody, and their knee hit my eye. When I went to blow my nose, it just shot up, so I'm out of the fight. Then they gave me a guy named Eric, another top guy. I go to fight this guy. This was my first UFC fight. And most people say, I won the first one, and they decide to give the bonus to that guy. People told me that I'd lose many fights based on being awkward and ugly in my career. I promise you. There have been fights. If you watch the actual scoring, I won, but I look uglier, so giving it to the other person is fine. So, I lost my first one. And that hurt. And I think that one sobered me up. #### **His Second Fight** He says, "For my second fight, I invested everything I can into my health. I turned vegan before there was even a single vegan fighter. I invested everything like I'm buying, $700 Vitamix blenders and $1,000 food dehydrators. I got into my second fight at a fighting Vagner roadshow in Nebraska against another toughen jiu-jitsu guy. I knocked the guy out in the first round. It's a nice knockout. And it was the only knockout of the night. And they announced to give bonuses away for the Fight of the Night. Everybody's coming to me. And they're like, Yeah, dude, you got the bonus. And I'm like, hell yeah, I need the bonus. Because you can't live off $20,000 for six months. But the bonus was given to someone else." #### **His Experience In Rishikesh** "Rishikesh was phenomenal. When I get to Rishikesh, they have this old ashram you can't find if you go to Rishikesh. You don't automatically have access to the Beatles ashram; you must ask somebody who knows where it's at. And it's a track, you have to go through quite a bit of jungle and stuff, but it's tucked away. And it's preserved. They have all these old meditation huts, and people will come and give their love, spray paint, and all of that." #### **Dharamshala: End Result Of Yoga** He says, "Dharmshala was the real deal. That was the practical application of what is the result of yoga and all of this. It's what you're going to get in Dharamshala in the Vipassana centers and the people trying to preserve what the Buddha was trying to express. This is the idea or rather the technique of meditation because, without meditation, nothing works." #### **Vipassana** Vipassana is the technique of meditation that the Buddha used. That was what he called the technique that he was using to meditate, which meant insight. It meant to know the truth, to see the truth as it is. And it's only taught in these specific places, these specific retreat centers, they're called Vipassana centers, and they're all over the world. In India, America, Georgia, Canada, Australia etc. ### Jonathon Brookins Resources #### Jonathon Brookins Quotes "Sometimes it's the things that we don't necessarily want that are the best things for us." - Jonathon Brookins "If you dot the i's and cross the t's, you can do it. Put your mind to it, write it down and believe there's a large chance that it is going to manifest itself." - Jonathon Brookins #### Jonathon Brookins Links - [India, Yoga, and MMA: Fightland Meets Jonathan Brookins](https://youtu.be/0GbQ4MH-zys "https://youtu.be/0GbQ4MH-zys") - [The India Diaries](https://www.mmafighting.com/2013/12/24/5223630/jonathan-brookins-india-journey-profile-ufc "https://www.mmafighting.com/2013/12/24/5223630/jonathan-brookins-india-journey-profile-ufc") - [Jonathan Brookins Twitter](https://twitter.com/j_brookins "https://twitter.com/j_brookins") - [Jonathan Brookins LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-brookins-2a087a44/ "https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-brookins-2a087a44/") - [Jonathan Livingston Seagull](https://www.amazon.in/Jonathan-Livingston-Seagull-Richard-Bach/dp/817223578X "https://www.amazon.in/Jonathan-Livingston-Seagull-Richard-Bach/dp/817223578X") - [Meetings with Remarkable Men](https://www.amazon.in/Meetings-Remarkable-Men-G-Gurdjieff/dp/1578988934 "https://www.amazon.in/Meetings-Remarkable-Men-G-Gurdjieff/dp/1578988934") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Jonathan Brookins Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/brookins_tsbb_promo-1024x1024.jpg "brookins_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Robert Degle On The Benefits of the Gi & IBJJF Points System](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-benefits-gi-ibjjf-points/) **Published:** March 31, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Robert Degle - IBJJF](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/robert_degle_gi_ibjjf_header-1024x576.jpg "robert_degle_gi_ibjjf_header › Sonny Brown")I talk to Robert Degle. A blackbelt in BJJ, was recently banned from competing in the black belt division by the IBJJF due to not having enough time registered as a brown belt before being promoted to black belt. Yet we discuss why he thinks the IBJJF has an overall net positive influence on the sport. From the prestige of its competition circuit to the rules and points system that he believes forces a general well-rounded jiu-jitsu game regardless of gi or no-gi competitions. An interesting take on how an external organisation's influence over a sport can affect individual competitors' actions. ## Listen to Robert Degle **Listen to the episode:** - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/positive-benefits-of-the-gi-ibjjf-points-system/id1476963733?i=1000555818612) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0xPIWt0lEJqC4kdZcUirJS?si=3ecb9aca4dc1490f) ## YouTube ## Topics ### Rule sets as an educational tool Degle argues that rule sets drive athlete behaviour far more than coaching speeches. The IBJJF’s points and leg-lock restrictions oblige beginners to master sweeps, guard passing, and back takes before chasing quick submissions. In his view, this “constraint-led” environment produces more rounded grapplers, and the benefits carry straight into ADCC or any other points contest. ### The temptation and limits of leg locks Leg locks offer a short, low-risk route to victory, making them “seductive.” Degle warns that early over-reliance can stunt long-term development; leg locks should sit inside a positional framework, not replace it. He notes how even elite leg-lockers like Gordon Ryan eventually had to prioritise passing to stay dominant. ### Systems and culture over individuals Borrowing from sociology, Degle claims that durable systems - consistent tournaments, shared goals, daily positional rounds - create champions more reliably than isolated talent. Brazil’s long IBJJF culture is his prime example, while purely submission-only gyms often lack the same positional depth. ### Super-fight entertainment versus tournament merit Professional super-fights may pay better, but Degle sees them as the “pro-wrestling branch” of grappling: fun yet inconsistent, judged on nebulous “excitement” criteria and offering few matches per year. By contrast, the IBJJF circuit lets athletes compete weekly, improve through volume and rely on clear, measurable merit. ### Wrestling and the B-Team training environment Training at B-Team in Austin has pushed Degle to wrestle hard and avoid pulling guard, mirroring ADCC scoring priorities. He highlights how that culture emerged only because the team collectively wants to win under those rules - proof, he says, that goals dictate daily practice. ### Bureaucracy, the ban and renewed goals Degle recounts being barred from black-belt IBJJF events for not holding brown-belt registration long enough, despite already holding black-belt skills. Rather than abandon the federation, he used the downtime to tour, teach and prepare; his near-term goals are to win Euros, Pans, Worlds and ADCC trials once eligible. ### Robert Degle Resources #### Quotes “Leg locks are very valuable, but if you view them as the end-all you are falling short.” - Robert Degle “Jiu-jitsu is not a spectator sport – strikes sell to the masses, grappling sells to grapplers.” - Robert Degle “Systems are ultimately more important than individuals for producing great athletes.” - Robert Degle #### Links - [Robert Degle Linktree](https://linktr.ee/RobertDegleBJJ) - [Robert Degle Instructionals](https://robertdeglebjjonline.teachable.com/) - [Robert Degle BJJ Heroes](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/robert-degle-diggle "Robert Degle BJJ Heroes") - [Robert Degle Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/robertdeglebjj/?hl=en) - [Robert Degle on the Purpose of Pragmatism, philosophy, Jiu-Jitsu & John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-pragmatism-philosophy/) - [Robert Degle On Leg Locks In MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-in-mma-meta/ "Robert Degle on Leg Locks in MMA & Elegant Leg Entanglements for Vale Tudo") - [Wittgenstein: A Very Short Introduction](https://archive.org/details/isbn_9787544732796 "Wittgenstein: A Very Short Introduction") - [Marcelo Garcia – Advanced Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Techniques](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Brazilian-Jiujitsu-Techniques-Marcelo/dp/1936608820) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Robert Degle On Pragmatism & Philosophy In Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-pragmatism-philosophy/) **Published:** September 27, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Robert Degle Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/robert_degle_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Robert Degle Jiu-Jitsu › Sonny Brown")I spoke with Robert Degle, a BJJ Black Belt from New York who trains under John Danaher and is also a philosophy major. We discuss how he started BJJ in the blue basement with Danaher, His start with philosophy and existentialism and how this led to him pursuing an academic career with a focus on American pragmatism and Wittgenstein. We then explore how this can influence grappling training in terms of learning, competition, seeking the truth using logic, paying attention, and the importance of persuasion. #### Listen To The Robert Degle Interview Here: ### **YouTube** If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Brian Ebersole On Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-abstract-thinking-wrestling/) **Published:** June 15, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Brian Ebersole](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/brian_ebersole-1024x576.jpg "Brian Ebersole › Sonny Brown")I talk to Brian Ebersole, a veteran of over 70 MMA fights, including a memorable run in the UFC. We discuss his early beginnings in the American scholastic wrestling system and the competitive mindset that helped to produce. The start of his fight career which includes training with American Kickboxing Academy, [Frank Shamrock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/plus-minus-equals-system-shamrock-training/ "The Plus, Minus, Equals training system of Frank Shamrock") and leading all the way to the UFC and finally, how [chaos theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systems-theory-chaos-complexity-with-school-of-grappling/ "Systems Theory, Chaos & Complexity With School of Grappling"), math and abstract thinking, including fish ... that getaway, has helped to inform his training and coaching methods. #### Listen To The Brian Ebersole Interview Here: ## YouTube ## Brian Ebersole Interview **Sonny Brown:** Good morning, Brian. How are you today, man? **Brian Ebersole:** Hey, not too bad. I just got a bit of a workout done. Onto the easy part of my day now. **Sonny:** Beautiful. That's what we like, kick back, have a chat, reminisce with some good martial arts tales, and make plans for the martial arts future. Beautiful. \[laughs\] Now, I've been aware of you for- **Brian:** You have a visitor. **Sonny:** Nice. nothing wrong with a nice cat on-screen. **Brian:** He just climbed the back of my chair, I couldn't help it. **Sonny:** The Internet loves cats, so we're all good. **Brian:** \[laughs\] I've noticed. **Sonny:** The internet and ancient Egyptians. We're on to something. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Now, I've been aware of you since you came to Australia and started fighting with the CFC, which, at the time, it was the biggest promotion in Australia, for sure. **Brian:** Definitely. **Sonny:** That was probably maybe your 50 fights, 60 fights deep into your career at that stage, I would have guessed. **Brian:** Yes, the 50s. **Sonny:** In the 50s. You were well-experienced and established veteran. It was interesting to have someone like that come on into the Australian scene because there was really no one else like that around. I know you'd grown-up wrestling and got into fighting through that. I wonder if we can start just exactly how you got into wrestling over into America. What's the story behind that? **Brian:** There's a big difference in sport in America and in Australia. Everything in Australia is through the club, like club sports, where everything in America is scholastic, it's through the school itself. Schools actually fund most of the athletic endeavors for kids. They do all the scheduling, they take care of the buses and uniforms. Everything's covered, and there's minimal expense. It's a lot easier, like is a barrier of entry. There's no big financial barrier of entry. Logistically, you're done with school, you just go to the gym. You just have another PE class at the end of the day, where, here you've got to get picked up and brought maybe even to another town, to an oval or a certain aquatic center or whatever the case may be. Well, all of our schools have those aquatic centers built-in. What do you call them, leisure centers here? **Sonny:** Yes. **Brian:** All those separate pieces of a leisure center would be in our high school. My high school, for example, had three gymnasiums, a main gymnasium, a women's, and a boy's. The varsity teams always played in the main gym most of the time. It was the big, nice one with all the bleachers. A lot of the JV and freshman squads could play their games in a smaller gym if sports were booked over the top of each other. It was very interesting being able to go through that process and have it very organized. Our schedule, from the time I was five until the time I was in eighth grade, looked very much the same. We were wrestling the same schools, we had very much the same dates on the calendar and things like that. When I got to high school, those four years were almost exactly the same in high school. Freshmen, sophomore, and varsity would have the same schedule. We'd go play one school and all three teams would drop, which is very regimented and very easy, or I find here it's very different. My grandfather started the wrestling club in my hometown. I co-founded it because there was a gap. All the people in my town, they never got to wrestle until they were in grade nine, which we call high school, secondary education. We had some athletic, tough kids, and they were always getting beat because they always ran into more experienced guys. They founded the youth program, which is just coping and pasting what other communities have done, but all these other communities that kids wrestling since they were six, seven, eight, nine years old. What's happening at the high school, they were seasoned veterans as far as competition and skill and things like that. It just made for a bit of a lopsided affair sometimes. My dad asked me to wrestle. I remember one night when I was five, and I told him no. I remember the first day told him no. The next day, or a couple of days later, I can't remember, but soon after, he asked me again, and I said yes. The next day I went, and then I just never stopped going. I hated the offseason. I was like, "I'm bored now. Can I go wrestle?" \[laughs\] **Sonny:** It was a family tradition. The grandfather, your father wrestled as well. **Brian:** No, I don't think my dad wrestled. I know I saw my uncle wrestle in high school, my youngest uncle, but my dad's one of the older-- Sorry, dad. He's one of the older brothers and sisters out of the 10. **Sonny:** Wow. **Brian:** I've got nine aunts and uncles, and I only saw my youngest uncle wrestle live. Now, I know my second-youngest uncle wrestled because his name is on a plaque in my high school, hanging up as well, next to my youngest uncle. Those two had won MVP, like the team captain-type awards in the late '70s, early '80s. When I grew up and I got to school, I knew those names are on the plaque, but I'd already started wrestling. I was five years old, I was already well and truly hooked. It wasn't one of these things I looked back and went, "Oh, I've got to do what they've done." **Sonny:** You just started doing it, I guess, from a young age. **Brian:** Yes, and it was social. My coaches made it fun. Could it have been more regimented and more \[mimic\] ? Yes, it could have been, but then we'd had lost a lot of kids. I had coaches when I was really young, that did a great job of keeping a large group together through all the bad grades and getting in trouble and being a ratbag little poor kids from a socioeconomically depressed part of town. Dealing with all that. Going as far as coming to pick us up to go to practice, or coming to pick us up to go to a tournament at 4:30 in the morning. We're all supposed to meet at the school at 4:30 and drive an hour and a half. Well, we'd all meet at the school at 4:30 and half of the caravan would go and one or two of the coaches would swing by houses and just knock on the door and say, "Hey." With the best of intentions, there were just parents that didn't get up that early and get their kid there. Not that they didn't want them to go, the permission was there and the $10 to enter the tournament was there, it's just they can't be bothered to get up at 4:00 AM and drive across town. They did a really good job keeping the whole group involved. When I got to high school, it got a bit more serious. I had a really, really full-on coach, but he did it with love. He was a really, really good guy. A Catholic guy, eight or nine kids himself. He's actually just retired this year. COVID came and he just went all out, "I retire, I'm done." \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** Good play. **Brian:** Now he retired, he had that decision well and truly made well before. No, wrestling back in the US, it's just part of the school thing. A small, small percentage of boys wrestle, but still, that small percentage lends to a fairly large raw number. Because it's built like a pyramid, you've got to win to get to the finals, we really do find who is the best of the best, at least in the statewide region. **Sonny:** That is such a different culture from here in Australia. Just to be able to have that [martial arts format baked into just regular life](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) in your schooling system, so different from what we have here. The importance, I guess, of being able to do it for lifelong pursuit and making it fun for those kids, it's something that I've been talking about a bit lately, is just how fun really Trump's being able to focus on techniques or anything like that. I went through a stage of, okay, I imagine every person in America wrestles. **Brian:** \[laughs\] **Sonny:** It's actually been like, "Oh, no, not everyone actually wrestles." It's still people don't like doing it. People will drop out of it. **Brian:** Absolutely. **Sonny:** That's been a bit of a learning curve. What do you think kept you keeping going? To keep going through into college, what was the driving force? Was it just that sheer enjoyment? **Brian:** I was good at it. **Sonny:** That helps. **Brian:** When you start getting good, you start setting goals. I was taught to set goals early. Whether or not I was a great goal setter, I did things, I kept my schedule on my refrigerator for wrestling. Every time win, loss, two wins, one loss, whatever it was, first place, fourth place, I'd write that down. I'd just sit and look at it and I'd have a goal by the end of the year, and toward the end of the year. It's got to be, but slightly out of reach. For me, it was always, "If I can beat someone that I'm not supposed to beat, if I'm like the fifth best wrestler in my weight class, I want to take third, hit that final tournament." I've got to beat someone that I'm not supposed to. That has to be the goal. Not, "I'm the fifth best wrestler. As long as I beat everyone I'm supposed to beat I take fifth, I'll be happy." You've got to push yourself just a little higher. I'm not going to beat Robert Whittaker tomorrow, but if I go to a tournament, there's going to be a couple of guys that are pretty good, and I'm going to say, "Well, I'm going to beat these guys." I run into Rob and we give him a go, but I wouldn't rest my whole happiness on beating him tomorrow. Things like that. Trying to keep it realistic, but also still pushing past what you know, or knowing that you're going to run into a kid again. If it was a close match, I got to beat him this time. Split decisions in fighting are no fun. No one likes that. In wrestling, it instills-- Because we have to wrestle that guy again, I tell myself, "I'm going to beat him. I'm going to pin him, I'm going to whoop him this time." Or here you get guys that will win a pro-fight by split decision, and then they'll act like they're entitled to a title shot or, "I need a UFC contract." or da da da. It's almost offensive to offer him the same fight a year later. "Well, I've already beat the guy." Well, one, did you really beat him, and two, what's this, "I'm going to clear out the division kind of thing."? Maybe go in and fight even a lesser guy just because he's different, how does that make you a better martial artist, or how does that solidify your spot as the top whatever weight in the country? It breeds a different mentality. As a matchmaker over here, I'm finding it interesting. I don't judge. I just find it very interesting that I'm putting kids through a system and helping a system with attitudes that are much different than what I came up with, because of the system, I guess. Over here it's very free and open and everyone has an opinion, whereas in the US, your opinion doesn't matter in sport. You just show up and play the game, and then results speak, and then you just show up and play the next game. I find it so awkward. AFL, they play the same team a couple of times in a year, you don't get to choose. **Sonny:** Yes, I'd be very interested, maybe we will get into it, just with your experience as a matchmaker and just your opinion on people seeking out maybe easier fights in an attempt to pad their record up to get a better win loss ratio, because clearly, that's something that you haven't done with 70 odd fights, isn't it? You've-- **Brian:** Yes. I just didn't pick and choose. Would it have been smart? Maybe, but in the end, we didn't grow up looking to avoid people. We wanted the toughest match. Even in practice those days, you have to go in and go, "I'm going to go beat up on someone 15 pounds heavier than me today." because that's the challenge, or, "I'm going to try to wrestle with the lighter guys, but I'm going to wrestle like a lighter guy. I'm going to try to beat him with speed not just--" Like playing basketball, when your shooting with your brother, you can post him up and back him down and hit layups all day. "Can I put a few jumpers on, can I outrun him, can I do a few other things." would be the challenge. You've got to make everything a challenge to get better. **Sonny:** I'm with you on that. I don't understand it as well where, yes, people will take the easier fight in a sport where especially they might present the image that they're tough and hardcore and scary individuals, but yet, you know that they're going easy on themselves by picking and choosing certain matchups. I don't get it. It's a sport where you can really test yourself, and you can really show legitimately you are a tough guy, no doubt about it. You can get out there and leave no mistakes, but yet there are people who will give that impression to people who don't know any better. You can go back to work and say, "I smashed this person." and everyone will believe you and think that's pretty gnarly, and it's really only the people who can look at two records and go, "Oh, hang on, something's not right here. Why are you fighting this guy when you're \[crosstalk\] " **Brian:** This is a little bit in the US too. I found like, amateur sport-wise, people were willing just to go and try to beat the best guy. Then once you turn pro-- Boxing is like this, once you go pro in boxing, you have to go 20 in a row to ever get a shot at anything, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Our sport's not really like that. If you really look at the guys that are, and have been in the UFC and have been successful, their early pro-career, there are plenty of losses for a lot of these guys, but they were against tough people. I don't understand sometimes coming across people that just think, "Well, if I can get to 10, I'll know I deserve to be in the UFC." Sometimes they look to see if you beat someone, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they don't care about you, they're just going in there because they need a hole filled, but in the end as an individual or as a coach, you've got to trust that you've put yourself in enough situations where you can handle a tough spot under pressure. I've had guys tell me, that I've coached, "I want to be in the UFC, da da da. I should be in the UFC." or, "I take a shot tomorrow. I've won this." and I look at them and I say, "You don't want to be in the UFC tomorrow. You don't. You don't." **Sonny:** It's going to be tough. **Brian:** Like, "Do you want me go sawn off 20 pounds real quick and then beat you up tomorrow? You don't want to be in the UFC tomorrow. Can we give it a couple of years? Can we give it a couple of test runs against tougher people?" You don't really want to go on national TV or Pay-per-view and get beat up that bad. There's a lot of dudes on that roster that would beat up a lot of dudes that I know that bad. **Sonny:** I look at the guys, especially from Australia, Volkanovski and Robert Whittaker, who, champions, done their best. From an early stage, you could tell their goal was to fight the best and be the best. You know what? I think that's worked out better for them. **Brian:** Yes, neither of them padded a record. Volkanovski fought some tough dudes, and Robert really fought some of the best to the best as well. Even taking on international challenges, I think that was Robert's first loss, but he learned a lot. He wrestled a **\[inaudible 00:16:36\]** wrestler in CFC. **Sonny:** Yes, Jesse Martinez, I think maybe it was. **Brian:** Jesse Juarez. **Sonny:** Juarez. That's it. Yes. I'm sure he grew and improved from that. **Brian:** Absolutely. **Sonny:** I look at them as our models for-- If people want to be good in the sport, those are the guys in this local area that you should look to. They would have had that goal and been able to follow through with it, embedded to find out here, what you have to work on then probably get, as you say, get into the big show, the tomorrow and maybe it doesn't go so well. **Brian:** You don't always get a second chance. You might go lose a fight or two in the UFC and get booted out, and then that springboards you athletically. You get that brain-body connection, you put a few things together, you come win a few fights, and you feel like you're unstoppable now. You might be, but you might not get back in. **Sonny:** Yes. I know that there's some people I can think of that's happened. **Brian:** Then you get relegated to protecting your record domestically, and you get into that weird middle ground like, "Well, then what?" **Sonny:** Yes, I've always felt like some of the local guys who have been in the UFC and come out, kind of owe it to some of the other local guys to put that on the line, to be like, "Okay, you had your chance. Now you've got that Rep. Can you help take on some of the other local guys here so they can have the opportunity? Prove yourself." **Brian:** That's it. Be a gatekeeper, at least. Go be the national champion. If that's the next best thing, go do it. Go clear out the division. I don't know. Just competition has a different flavor coming from that system. The two guys you mentioned were very happy to go out of their comfort zone and do boxing exhibitions or kickboxing, and Robert Whittaker is a national champion wrestler. He was going to wrestle in the Commonwealth Games a year or two ago. Alex had wrestled, done a few other things. Go jump into grappling industries. I think Robert got healed up by Tito Carlo. Not all that long ago. Just for the challenge. **Sonny:** After his fight with Israel Adesanya, nearly every grappling-- Probably less than a month afterwards. If you can't be inspired by that and take something away from that looking at the guy who's just been in tens of thousands of people in front of Melbourne and now just he was at the local gym taking on the local, grappling- **Brian:** Just that want to compete, just put yourself in that-- It's not always like, "I need to win, win, win, win." everything is just, "I want to have a good go." You can't always do it in the gym with your mates. It's not always an honest, fair fight with your mates. **Sonny:** There is that extra level of competition that just breeds that little bit of extra intensity. **Brian:** It's the unknown. **Sonny:** The unknown. **Brian:** The unknown. The uncertainly. I've seen some really unassuming looking people in all different avenues, whether it's an ESCO or a Waco, or a wrestling tournament or Jiu Jitsu cup, that don't look like they should even be in the room, and then they go out whip people. Imagine a chubby old guy grabbing Robert, you're having his way with him, Dean Listering him or something. Can you imagine? Just that unknown, you just never know if someone's got a good game here, a good game there and a nice trick move that works every now and again. Maybe someone is just super fit and you can't wear him down, things like that. There's all sorts of challenges in those tournaments and those uncertain matches where in your room you know, you can go and pick and choose your opponents and your teammates and everyone knows each other's game and everyone has that little brotherly, well, that's our agreed intensity. **Sonny:** Which you need as well for training, but-- **Brian:** Longevity. **Sonny:** Longevity, you need that. Speaking of the unknown and uncertainty, when you would have started competing yourself and would have set that goal, I guess at some stage, you said you're big on goal, I'm sure you would have set that goal to compete and there would have been no way that you could have known where the sport was going or what you were maybe getting yourself into for the long run. What first prompted you to take that first fight, maybe, and how did you go about dealing with those unknowns of competition in those early days for you? **Brian:** When I was 12, 13, my parents actually ordered the first UFC, and we watched it. It wasn't something that was all that interesting to me, it was cool to watch for [martial arts, I didn't even consider wrestling martial art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathan-brookins-interview-ufc-mma-yoga/) until way later, but it was me just watching it and having a go. Then a couple of years later, I started playing basketball with a group of guys through the summer, and they were kenpo and Taekwondo and did some point fighting tournaments. One of the other ones was really into the whole, "This wrestling thing is really cool." We'd always wrestle and play and try to figure out how to do some of the moves, kind of like what the guys do now with YouTube, the blue belt YouTube thing. We were doing very much the same thing, but as subpar white belts back then. Eventually, that morphed into, could you, because I'd wrestle, I was only one that wrestled in the group. Well, you couldn't take me down to submit me because I did okay on the ground with them and some of the guys weren't very good and didn't get it, so I was always on their back, pinning them, and even if I couldn't sub them, just wearing them out and sitting in mount. That whole ego thing turned into, well, you couldn't take me down before, so we could get out on the grass and put some gloves on and take them down and da da da da da. Then it turned into, I'll teach you to wrestle, you teach you me how to strike. Then they tried to take me down while I was boxing. We just mixed up all these games, and some of that's still with my coaching style now, just mixing up games, you play one character, you play the other character, you got to be this way, he's got to be that way. I went off to college, wrestled my first year. Matt Hughes had fought earlier in that year. I actually went with one of my teammates to watch him up in Chicago. That was the promoter I first ended up fighting for, funny enough, in that same gym. A year or so later, after my second wrestling season, I had four fights that summer, then I came back from my third season, gotten a scuffle with a college kid from another school that was down visiting, and got arrested for it, charged, set through most of the wrestling season awaiting trial and going through court procedures so I couldn't play sport. The charges got dropped toward the end of the year, I'd missed most of my school year, definitely missed all the wrestling season and wasn't invited to come back to the team the next year. During that time, while I couldn't go on campus, I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that, had a few more fights. Once I knew I couldn't wrestle, that was going to be my only way to stay active, so I ended up getting a key to a local dojo to be able to train after they were done training in a matted area, and had a couple guys that were interested. One of them, big heavyweight fella, ended up fighting two or three UFC guys; fought Tim Sylvia, fought Jason Riley and did okay, considering where we're coming from. Had Tim Sylvia at a bit of trouble, to be honest, and then Tim went on to be a UFC champion less than two years later. It was a bit of an interesting one. Had another kid that got into Bellator and did a few good things, young fella. Funny enough, my school, the wrestling team itself, produced about nine or eight UFC guys, and then some of just the offside, random kids that I trained with ended up getting into, like I said, Bellator, some other big fights. The whole goal thing, I think, started after my wrestling was gone because wrestling was always primary, that was first. Then I decided, well, I'm going to make a go with this. I ended up moving to California to go train at AKA in 2003. I was out there until 2006, '07 because 2006 I visited Australia the first time for a couple of months. I went back for four months and left in April of 2007 to come back, and I've stayed most of those 12 years in Australia since. **Sonny:** Did you move to California then with the intention of, I'm going to make this my career, my profession? **Brian:** Yes, I went to AKA. Jon Fitch and I had taken a Thanksgiving break, we met through the local Midwest meet grinding fight every weekend kind of scene, and we took a couple of trips together. We ended up going out to AKA and staying with Crazy Bob Cook and Josh Thompson, sleeping on their couch and floor for a little while. Then we moved back separately not too far apart from each other, but after that school year was over. He got his degree and moved on out, I just stopped mine. I was 20 credits short, I should have stayed for another year and finished, but I just went, I'm going to go do this. I just followed it. I went out there, and by the time we're out there, you've invested a lot to move to California. I think both of us looked at it like, this is what we're going to do. In different ways, it work out for both of us. **Sonny:** Yes, that burned the boats mentality, I guess. **Brian:** I know. I definitely did, but he didn't tell his parents he was fighting for a long time. His parents didn't know until he was in the UFC. He went a long time without mom knowing that he was punching on for a living. **Sonny:** That's funny. **Brian:** 'Jon, does your mom know that you just spent a weekend in Mexico drinking Corona and punching people?" "No, Brian, she doesn't." "Well, I won't tell her, Jon." \[laughs\] **Sonny:** That's good. **Brian:** I moved out there and trained at AKA for a good two years, and then Frank Shamrock left to open his own academy and I went with him. In my first fight out of his own academy was a **\[unintelligible 00:27:05\]** against Cung Le. I'd never kickboxed in my life, and I went and fought Cung Le in his sport. **Sonny:** Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seemed to be what Cung Le was doing with his Sanshou. No one in that area actually did Sanshou, so he was getting some people who he could-- His highlight really looks amazing. I'll just say that. **Brian:** Oh, it does, but it's a couple of rungs up from Steven Seagal highlight. The guy could throw some punches and kicks, but he's scissor takedowning people that can barely stand on their own two feet in the stiff wind anyway. **Sonny:** It seems like that. I love what Cung Le's done, I love enjoying watching his fights .... **Brian:** He's amazing. **Sonny:** But those Sanshou fights he had in California just looks like-- **Brian:** He was not on the grind in those fights. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Just things like that, but there wasn't much Sanshou background in his opponents, but that's a big step in to keep going into your first fight. **Brian:** Definitely into the deep end, but it ramped up my training, I was really excited for that fight. That was the one reason I went with Frank instead of staying at AKA because I thought Frank would get me into those kind of fights. I looked at the situation at AKA, which was still very fledgling. When I left with Frank and signed this fight, the other boys just got on to the Ultimate Fighter. Four of my teammates, Jon Fitch was the fifth and he got pulled off the plane with his luggage at the last minute. Four of the teammates went off to Ultimate Fighter, and then soon after, I was fighting Cung. I ended up getting one opportunity while they got another, but that's the one that really set AKA's MMA team off, and it turned into a big recruiting machine and sinking entertainment as far as the management started to get big and they recruited a Josh Koscheck as a couple of time national champion wrestler and the Daniel Comier's of the world and Cain Velasquez's followed soon after. I went off looking for those fights, and was super excited to get it. I had a feeling that he wouldn't try to wrestle much, and in the end, he didn't. I took a fair few leg kicks to my lead leg, and it turned nice and purple over the next few days as I rested and hung out, but it was a fairly close fight, and I was pretty excited to get in there and actually not get beat up against someone dangerous, because that, again, just showed me I was on the right path. That fight, and probably the M-1 fight where it was USA versus Russia, Chael Sonnen was on the card, Justin Eilers was on the card. We had a pretty good group of American guys fighting a stack of Russians. I fought a Russian whose record ended up being, it was 27 and 3, coming out of that red double team. It was at 93 kilos, and I usually fought 84, and later on I fought 77 and 70. He was a very large gentleman, so to be able to TKO him in round three, after trying to stand with him, because I was, "Hey, I'm trying to get American Kickboxing Academy. I'm going to show off my striking." I stood with this guy for two rounds, and didn't get beat up too bad. To be able to go do that again, with no choice really. If I wrestled with Cung, they just stood us back up anyway. To be able to get through that next bottle saying okay, I don't want to fight Wanderlei Silva yet, but I'm on the right path. **Sonny:** In part of that early formation of your style then, when you're training at AKA, leaving to go with Frank. Frank is one of the all-time legends of the sport, no doubt, with his early mix of styles. How much did his influence translate on to your eventual fighting style? What was training under him like? **Brian:** Training with him was-- I wasn't starstruck. I had met the Tito Ortiz's and all these people, and I realized, Tito wrestled in a division in college that wasn't as competitive as the one I was in. That said, he had some accolades. He won some medals. Had I went to that division, I don't know if I had won those same metals, but I was wrestling the best of the best in competition in my room for the two years I wrestled. I didn't look at it like it was out of reach. Matt Hughes, who was my wrestling coach used to pound me and pick on me and beat me up, so I looked at him like he was on another level. He was a three, four-time all American, and then you get to a Matt Hughes, and I looked at Matt very much-- Oh sorry. You get out to Frank and I looked at Frank the same way. Complete physical specimen, you might be in a good position, but you still feel like you're in danger with him. He was a pretty generous guy. It just took me to get over that hump to actually ask him for some help, because he ran like his own programs. He wasn't part of the fight team, really at the time. He was just doing his own thing. He wasn't really actively seeking fights at the time for himself. There was just that little bit of when I ran into him asking him for some of his time, like, "Hey, can I come in before one of your classes or stay after one of your classes?" First thing I remember asking him was about leg locks, because I didn't know a thing about them. **Sonny:** Nice. **Brian:** He spent some time with me there. Then when I decided to leave with him, he was very much in that early 30s, trying to make the most of his brand, because he'd already done all the hard yards and the fighting and didn't make all that much money doing it. By all that much money, I'm not even going to throw a ballpark figure out, I have no idea how well off he was from it, but he's not making what they're making today, and that's for sure. You could see he wanted to make the most of the Shamrock name. He's trying to set up a gym and set up other corporate stuff. He got in the gym a fair bit, but he wasn't always on the mat, on the mat, on the mat. He was definitely more like a coach or a team manager at that stage. Which was okay because he did leave us with a pretty good knowledge base and he brought in some pretty good people to teach them the classes and play. It wasn't like every day it was I got to wrestle with Frank, which would have been a dream. Getting over there and have him kind of lead the ship, like I said, was a bit of an interesting look into the other side. Maybe a bit late for me and maybe not my style, but he was putting us in front of cameras, and having us do mock interviews and all that stuff and said, if you're ever going to make money in this game, it's going to be as much doing this as it would be fighting. With the group of guys he had, he was giving us amazing knowledge. I'm the only one that got out to the UFC out of that group that trained there. It wasn't my style to kind of be like a McGregor, but he very much gave us those tools and that insight if we wanted to. That would be the path to travel to try to increase your social media footprint. Social media wasn't really a thing back then. He knew it was in the pipeline and coming, obviously knowing people in the Silicon Valley and the tech world. He had that insight and knowledge that it was all coming. Very interesting. Had he had a group of UFC based athletes 6, 7, 8, 10 guys, and did what he did with the group that I had, which was just a rough and tumble group, like a ragtag group of guys, I think he'd created a few superstars, to be honest. **Sonny:** Yes, that's fascinating that he got you guys in front of the camera to do mock interviews, because that's the first time I've ever heard of anyone in MMA doing that. My understanding is that they do that in pro wrestling as like a form to get their interview skills better, but it certainly makes sense if you're going to do it professionally to practice that for MMA. Very interesting. I remember him, his fight versus Phil Baroni actually. He did the full video packages beforehand that he produced himself and put on YouTube. Maybe he was one of the first person to do something like that. I remember at the time that seemed like a pretty big deal. **Brian:** It's one of the ones, he's a bit of a visionary in that regard. Unfortunately, at every step of the way, it's like he was just born too early. He was doing the stuff before, but it didn't pay off until a couple of years later for other kids that were coming up. He did a great job for Strikeforce, and I know they had good buy rates and things like that. Again, to be able to leverage his name, his resume, and things like that, to be able to do that maybe five years later, would have been a whole different story. Could you imagine how many Instagram followers Frank Shamrock would have if he was 31 right now, 32 years old? **Sonny:** For sure. That Phil Baroni fight would be gone viral. Making that hand gesture of him being on the pillow and things like that, in the middle of the fight, that would be a viral clip. 100% that will get around-- **Brian:** He's not shy. He does the 10 second clips and does the really good hard sound bites that are going to get attention. That's what he was telling us. It doesn't matter how much you talk, it's kind of how hard you hit with your words in those short bursts. When I got to the UFC and they wanted to do all these interviews backstage, there were times, I remember doing one in a dark room and they're asking me these questions. I'm kind of going very long form with it, and finally one of the guys goes, "We're just really looking for short, sharp clips." He basically told me what they were going to do with it. You know when you come out and they're doing the announcement of the fight and they put, for example, they put Chris Lytle up talking for sevens seconds and then they switch over to me for like seven or eight seconds, and then back to Chris. He goes, "That's what we're doing this for." I'm like, "Why didn't you say that? I thought you were interviewing me." I was treating it like a podcast. As soon as he told me that, and that was my first fight, it got a lot easier to just go through those interviews and just say what they sort of needed. If I hit him with my left hand, he's going to fall down. He's going to go to sleep. If I get his back, I will choke him. That's all they want to hear. They don't want to hear about, how do you think your styles match up? Well, that's what they ask you, but it's not what they want to hear. \[laughs\] It was very interesting. I look at someone like Frank, I think he would have definitely thrived in a different era because he understood it, and he understood it early, and it didn't have to be forced or pressed upon him. It was a very, very interesting time with Frank, and I left Frank's and came to Australia and fought for Justin Lawrence twice before going back for a couple of months having one more fight, and then I moved back to Australia, and ended with a coaching job in Perth. I had a short-timer on Frank, and his influence besides being in the gym then, like all the stuff he taught me, most of it didn't come out and come to fruition for me until I was coaching in Perth, leading another group of young men like 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds, and having a lot of time to do solo training and bag work and kettlebells and mat drills and just getting better at my own movement. That's really where a lot of the lessons he gave me sunk in, and probably because I have that quiet time to reflect with no distractions as well. Frank's knowledge has kind of been the gift that keeps on giving for me. **Sonny:** Taking that knowledge and building on it, how did you manage to actually get through your fights until you get to Australia with, I believe, never knocked out, never knocked down? How does a wrestler manage to strike with people, even getting a cartwheel kick knock out, which I think there was some controversy about? Maybe you can explain that. Take those risks over and over again and then managed to come out relatively unscathed. Do you think that's fair to say? **Brian:** Yes, I came out pretty unscathed. There's a little bit there. I don't try to create train crashes very often. Even my striking style, not really trying to strike to kill people most of the time. Even the big stuff I throw, I'm expecting you to cover and I can take you down off of that or clinch you off for that. I expect to get that high hardcover, and I use that high hardcover to my advantage as well. Most people, and I never ran into like a body shot master or anything like that, most people have very big toes before they swing with something powerful. I learned to read people through wrestling. You could see when people are loading up to wrestle, and the same thing came with striking. I never really came across like a Vasyl Lomachenko that could faint and make you really jump and then slick out to one side or the other or change levels so well. I never really got hit with a big body shop, which I always thought it was just because someone's going to hit me in the liver, someone's going to slick me and make me scared one place and get me somewhere else. Fighting Hector Lombard is pretty straightforward. He's going to swing with his left and then his right and then his left and then his right, then his left, then his right until he doesn't want to swing anymore, or until I break distance or make him clench, or hit him back and make him think. Super easy for me just to use a high guard. Sometimes I look a bit silly doing it, but nothing really got past my forearms. It was a bit of pattern recognition, and then just a little bit of smarts. I don't need to try to beat people to a punch. I didn't have that pride where you throw 10 punches, I had to throw a couple back. I would let you throw a 10 and I'd throw a zero and that'd be fine, and I will just go to the next engagement. It was all about competing and winning. If you want to take 10 bad shots with a basketball, that's fine, but I'm not going to rush into mine. **Sonny:** That makes sense. Now you say you didn't take too much of the showmanship stuff from Frank Shamrock, but then you did have the arrow. I believe, the arrow shaved into your chest pointing at the chin, goading people to come and try and knock you out. Was that just a part of gamesmanship? **Brian:** Yes, eventually, like I said, Frank's lesson started to sink in a little bit. I realized I've got to go out and show. It can't just be head down, hoodie up, EarPods in, warm-up, compete, leave. I started to have a little bit more fun at the way so that whole arrow thing was a weigh-in thing. I told the guy at the weigh-in that he's going to have to hit me to beat me. You're not cow wrestling, you better bring your hands tomorrow. Then when I showed up, I left a goatee and an arrow on the chin. It was a longer story than just shaving the arrow. That was a bit set up, a bit of verbal sparring at the way in. Then I kept it from there because people loved it and had a laugh and I was like, "Well, even getting out of UFC--" While I was in the UFC I said, "Nobody knows my name, and that's okay. They just know the guy with the arrow. Even after, I still get people who are like, "Oh, you're the arrow guy." Nobody knows my name. I had a few more fights without a change maybe, but in the end, I left an impression, and like I said, it started to sink in that you got to do something different. I wanted to get out of Australia into the UFC. I'm like, "Listen, I've got that many fights. I can compare myself to these many guys that have fought similar opponents or some of the guys I had beaten, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've got to get in." When I came over here, I decided if I'm going to go and be the best guy, it might not be enough just to be the best guy. I've got to have a bit of fun with it and show that I can play the entertainment side of the sport a little bit. **Sonny:** The first time I think I saw you fight was with the CFC. The first fight was with Dylan Andrews, I think. **Brian:** Correct. **Sonny:** My recollection was you're walking out to the cage on your mobile phone, and \[chuckles\] you went and sat down in the corner having a chat with someone. **Brian:** Yes, I told everyone I was talking to my mom. **Sonny:** Were you really? What was going on there? **Brian:** I may or may not have been, but that's what I told everyone. **Sonny:** We'll leave that to a bit of \[crosstalk\] secret. **Brian:** Because I've done it a few times. I walked out with my phone at Strikeforce in the US. I don't remember how many of those were real phone calls and how many of them weren't, but I've done it a few times. **Sonny:** The most important thing is that you left an impression that when I think about it, I can't probably tell you what happened in the fight. I remember that walk out very vividly. There's that to take away. **Brian:** I didn't realize, but they gave me the nickname bad boy without me knowing. I just showed up on the poster. It was Brian the bad boy. That was all. I was like, "Well, okay, I'm the American guy. I'm from out of town. That's fair." Then it stuck. **Sonny:** Then speaking of the weigh-ins then that led to the arrow, I've got to ask you about what happened at the Hector Lombard weigh-in. What was it like fighting him? Because at the time, I guess he was kind of unknown, or he wasn't what he came to be known as. I remember there was this scuffle at the weigh-in. You were wearing, it was like a Buddhist flag around your neck or something like that. What was that flag? What were you wearing? Then what actually went down there? **Brian:** When I fought Hector, he was at 84 kilos, and I was already weighing 76 waking up on a day, and I knew I was going to 70, but I couldn't get a fight at 70. Without naming names, there were just people in that division that wouldn't sign to fight me at 70. I looked at Hector and I went, "Well, okay, I wasn't that weight class. I'm not really weighing in that weight class now, but that's something only I know. Everyone else thinks I'm a middleweight." I couldn't exactly duck him after beating a couple of guys at middleweight and then going on the lightweight or on the welterweight now. Everyone's going to say, "Well, you're ducking Hector." Even though I'd went vegetarian, I'd leaned out a ton for the first time in my life properly without doing weight cutting. I actually had a glass of wine and a liter of water at the weigh-in just to get up to 77.5. Hector would have weighed in 83.9. I had a scroll around my neck, obviously, that got me up to maybe 78 kilos, but it said something about power doesn't come from something, it comes from an indomitable spirit. Hector is walking around. Obviously we all theorize he's used some substances in his day. He doesn't pass the sniff test on that. **Sonny:** Didn't he get positive for a test? **Brian:** Yes, there's that. We made that up. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Brian:** You never know. It's like you can do it when you're 18 but those gains stay with you. It's not-- **Sonny:** That's not big things with that. **Brian:** That's what people don't get. Is you don't need to be on it all the time. It's just when you make gains like that, your body holds that knowledge and that gain. I've talked to some people that know a bit about it on other podcasts, and they've given me the science behind all that and very interesting, the way the body lays down muscle and it lays down neural pathways and things like that. I was given a bit of a hard time in that regard, but not so subtle. I asked for drug tests for that fight, and CFC said, "Okay." My drug test came out of my purse. I don't know if they actually properly drug tested Hector or not. I remember peeing in a cup and that was really it and I don't know who read it, who tested that. There wasn't much said other than I lost 500 marks and I got to pee in a cup later that day. In the end, I was-- Because I wasn't given privy to the process, but I was asking Hector, "Are you going to be able to pee anytime soon? Because I don't want to wait around for two and a half, three hours while you rehydrate to pee." He didn't probably even know what I said, and he just flew off the handle. I looked over at Luke, I said, "Hey, do we have to wait around? You know he's 83.9 right now. He's cut six kilos. How long do I got to wait tonight? I just want to go home and rest or go back to the hotel," whatever it was. Just have a laugh. Hector flew off the handle. He came up to me and threw a combo, and then I stood behind my shortest coach so my Chin's resting over top of his head and I'm still talking to Hector having a laugh. I'm like, " Hold me back, Taff . Hold me back." \[laughs\] He wasn't really holding me back, obviously, but just having a big laugh. Well, Hector tried to pick up a barstool and chase me with it after that. I got to block my first four punches from Hector at the weigh-in, and then the barstool stuff and then the, "I'll kill you in the streets," and all sorts of crazy stuff coming out of his mouth. It seemed like a Scarface kind of speech that he gave me. The Cuban accent and everything. That left a little bit of a fun start to the whole charade and fight weekend. Then obviously we get in the fight and I cut him with an elbow in round one. I ended up getting cut myself in round three, and I blew my knee out a bit in round four. While in full guard, I just case gave the ref a bit of a wave and said, "Hey, that's me for the day. I'm not going to go and ruin my knee on this guy." Subsequent to the fight, Hector's freaking out saying I headbutted him, \[laughs\] and that's how I cut him. I had someone slow the video down and send it off on Twitter or something like that. He's telling me he bet me $5,000 that it was a headbutt. I'm like, "Well, give me your $5,000 because here's a video. There's my elbow." Having a laugh and flew off the handle. We had a few funny run-ins over the years since then. Obviously, he and I were in the UFC at the same time. He's always been an interesting one for me. **Sonny:** Yes, he's definitely, definitely a character, who will say that. Then going from those fights, those local fights in the CFC, getting the call-up, finally, to get into the UFC while you've been training out here. I think the first one it was a replacement fight. **Brian:** It was, yes. I replaced Carlos Condit against Chris Lytle. They were going to fight to see who was going to fight at GSP. The winner was going to get the title shot. **Sonny:** Wow. At the time, Condit and Chris Lytle, it certainly wasn't an easy fight to go into the UFC on. How prepared were you for that? Was that the moment you'd always been waiting for? How did that go down? **Brian:** I had fought the June before, like six, seven months before I'd fought Carlos Newton in Brisbane. I practiced a few nasty movements and a few things that are just mean. He was one of the first guys I knew when I got in there that I could do a few things with, and I had to hold back the tiniest bit. I would hate to rip the leg off of a legend. I'm not the meanest guy. Then, I go fight Chris Lytle and it was the same thing. It's like, "I need to beat him up, but I can't heel hook him and I can't do this and I can't do that." I could choke him and maybe hit him a few times \[chuckles\] . I beat Carlos Newton, and after round two, I knew I was up two rounds to zero, so round three, just played the same game, clinch, strike, throw a few kicks, and mostly coast. I didn't go to the ground with him at all because I didn't really want to give him any comfort and any shot. Then, the same thing, calling UFC like I want to get into UFC 127, it's six, seven months away, da, da, da, da, da. "Well, we don't need an American with 12 losses. You didn't beat Carlos all that impressively," when I said, "I've just been a UFC champ." "It wasn't that impressive. You didn't finish him." I'm like, "I have to go kill people to get a shot in UFC?" It was frustrating. Then, obviously, two weeks out or 10 days out, 11 days out, there's an injury, so I do get a call-up. Luckily, I was training for a fight on the Gold Coast that was going to happen a week before the UFC. They pulled me out of a fight like five days before I was going to fight, maybe seven. Luckily, I was in training, but I was at a point where after the Carlos Newton fight, I was ready to be done. I was ready to just coach and be done. Then, I took a fight in Tasmania that was against someone I know, and I knew he wasn't going to be able to beat me. That was one of those safe record padding fights but wasn't really for the record, it was just for a couple of dollars so I could continue feeding myself. Then, I got the call for the UFC. Super happy to get in there, compete really well, get a Fight of the Night bonus which really saved everything because, without those bonuses, my pay would have been so paltry. It would have been tough to continue. I had a really bad injury pop up right after that fight. Two weeks later, I was in Melbourne doing a seminar and I was talking on one knee while holding onto a single leg not bearing any weight or anything from that single leg. I was just about to transition through a double. Before I even went into the move while I was talking, my back seized up. It was a slow little process, but over the course of 10 minutes, I knew I wasn't going to be able to do anything with myself for the rest of the day. I talked to a couple of students that I was familiar with through the rest of the seminar and they did all the demos. That night, I couldn't even get out of the bed. I couldn't get up to go to the toilet. I was crawling, excruciating pain. It was a bit of a tough one. Had I not got that bonus, I probably wouldn't even have fought the next fight. I probably would have called it right there, but because they had that bonus money, I was able to really spend some money on myself and go chiro, osteo, physio, PT, pilates, and get myself core strength and strong to where I was confident enough not to rip my back again. The second fight was Dennis Hallman, I got another bonus. I was able to spend that money again. **Sonny:** That's got to be a good story. **Brian:** Oh, that was amazing. **Sonny:** Maybe that you were just on the receiving end of-- **Brian:** He made my day \[laughs\] . **Sonny:** Yes, I guess the story was pretty much, "He's won." It's definitely the most unique bonus probably given in UFC history, which is basically for beating Dennis Hallman after you came out wearing a pair of speedos for the fight. **Brian:** I mean, go figure, I let the guy on my back to start. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] **Brian:** The last place you want a guy in speedos, but also the last place you want Dennis Hallman. Shocking, shocking start to the fight but it worked out. **Sonny:** Did you flinch at all when he came out in the speedos? Because it was seen as such an egregious act at then. **Brian:** I've wrestled my whole life, that's normal stuff. That's normal. **Sonny:** At one stage in the sport, that was par for the course. **Brian:** The pro wrestling, just wrestling. **Sonny:** Yes, but he certainly coped at that night \[laughs\] . **Brian:** You have Sakuraba. Even Frank Shamrock wore a pair of tights in one of his fights. Dan Severn. Ken Shamrock. It didn't throw me off. It was so different than what you see in that era because everyone was wearing boardshorts, or maybe the Bad Boy spats closer to your knee. No, because, again, I'm old. As far as data goes, it's like, yes, that data was collected a while ago seeing all those tiny, tiny, tiny shorts. Hulk Hogan even, Ultimate Warrior, all that stuff. Pro wrestling ravishing Rick Rude. That was all normal to me just because the recent data has drifted away and towards boardshorts and all that, it didn't quite get me. Had I not had 50 fights and been a pro wrestling fan, then it might have been different. Everyone else freaked out. I had a good chuckle to myself. The only time I flinched in that whole fight was when he threw a head kick a bit unexpected. I caught it off my form and I turned and I went to square back up but he followed me on a path I didn't expect, and he was jumped on my back pretty early. I was watching the video. I was so upset with myself. I said, "What am I doing?" I acted like he was a Cro Cop. I acted like he was Cro Cop kicking me in the head. **Sonny:** That's classic. **Brian:** Yes. It made for good fun. Those bonuses really helped. In one way, I've got a lot of knowledge now that I wouldn't have had I not hurt myself, so that's cool, but not cool because I had to hurt myself to get that knowledge. Just about core strength and mobility and just different modes of exercise. It's just not all about just bench, squat, deadlift, pick people up, throw them down if you want to be a real martial artist. Interesting days. **Sonny:** You had some more fights in the UFC, but now, you've moved on now into a coaching role. I'm wondering, you mentioned there being a real martial artist, what do you expect from the guys that you're coaching now with getting that-- You even mentioned getting the old data and the new data from life experience. Taking that part of being a real martial artist that way that you're collecting data, how do you translate that onto the guys that you're coaching now? What do you expect them to grow into? **Brian:** More of an expectation of an individual, for me, it's like once people show me that they actually want to compete because, again, half the people I'm in contact with don't want to compete, and I love that. I love the fact that MMA and whatnot is a sport where average Joes get to come in and help push competitive athletes a bit. It almost renders that at least team environment that's missing from this individual type of sport where you get dads and whatnot that come in and can wrestle with Alex Volkanovski, three or four dads or trading rounds with them and giving them a push. When someone tells me they want to compete, it's my job to find out what their normal life looks like, and then for us both to figure out what their best effort toward becoming a competitive martial artist would look like. All my guys will have a different schedule, and that's not predicated on like, "To be a fighter, you have to do this, this, this, and this, and spend this much time," it's, "This is what your life looks like, so to be the best martial artist you can be, this has got to be what we do," if that makes sense. If I get someone working four 12-hour shifts, their training routine has to look different than someone that works five eight-hour shifts. It has to be different. The rest, recovery, the time expectancy, all that has to be different. I get guys that-- some guys are bucket listers, want to have one or two. It's like, "Let's be smart about the one or two we do and when we do them, it doesn't have to be tomorrow, or do you want to have one now and then take a year to ruminate on those lessons and get good and then have the other one? How do you want to do it?" Some guys want to go back to back to back to back to back. It's my job more to manage people because if just left to their own devices, some people would just try to run through the brick wall over and over and over and over and over, and that's not always the best way to get a result. It's very interesting because it's not a sport environment. I don't have people all coming from eight hours of sitting in desks and walking hallways and then training for two hours. I don't have it to where I can call them in at 6:00 AM to do a run and a conditioned session before classes or go to school all day and then train after. Everyone's coming from different areas. Some of my best athletes don't even train together because they have different work schedules. One guy is in my 5:30 class, one guy is in my 7:30 every day. The only day they get together is on a Saturday. It's such a different story dealing with the amateur guys. Everyone has a different end goal or outlook. Some guys know that they're going to have four or five amateur fights, and that's probably going to be it. Then, you get other guys that have that little bit of, "If I catch--" That's what I did. if I threw mud at the wall and it stuck, and that's why I kept going. I'm like, "I'm pretty good at this. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to move to California. I'm still winning most of my fights, I'm going to keep going." At any point, one fighter, one incident could have changed everything. Trying to look at people and stay sustainable and that little bit of longevity and let them fall in love with the sport is one aspect. Then, the other aspect is, "How do we get you as well prepared as possible?" but again, knowing that you have a life outside of the gym. Because, again, we're not in school all day. **Sonny:** With maybe not as many people doing it for the competitive side and it's not being as regimented for sport, then what would you say the main benefit of training martial arts, of being a martial artist can be for people to apply outside of that sporting context? What life lessons can they take from that training that you think are possible? **Brian:** Martial arts is a really, really good-- I don't know if platform is the right word, but in the sense that you can start as a complete beginner and not know anything and feel uncoordinated, and you can truly see your progression with the same effort like weightlifting. If you can lift 10, then 20, then 30, then 40, then 50, you can see it go up, but this is more of a feeling of coordination of whole-body awareness. It's very interesting for someone to be able to come in knowing nothing, and then the power of, "I can defend myself, I can move people at will, I can sustain being attacked and defend, defend, defend and still turn the tide to where, eventually, I become the attacker in a grappling situation or a striking situation." Being able to set goals and see progress, again, inside the gym, is very easy where sometimes, in your work environment, you don't really have a tangible plateau to get to and a hill to climb. For me, with my students, it's very, very important for them to realize where they were two months ago and give themselves the credit for the work they've done to get there, and then to look at themselves in other avenues and go, "Yes, I can get better at everything in my life. I don't have to stay stagnant." You can get better as a parent. You can get better as a husband. You can get better as a friend. You can get better just with different bits of awareness in different modes. **Sonny:** When you're talking about getting as a better friend, sometimes, it's hard to get the tangible feedback on what that actually would involve that you can get with something like martial arts, which I guess makes it more like an art. You can probably tell if you're getting better at painting, if you're getting better at playing an instrument, and that puts it into that art field. Would you think that's reasonable to say? **Brian:** Yes. With any drawing, you could draw anything, like a bowl of fruit and do it 20, 30, 40 times, you're going to notice a difference. That same thing, if you're going to get on a pads or a mitt routine, you're going to notice the difference. You can get on a wrestling set of drills from touch to take down, to guard pass, to submission, you're going to notice that you're smoother and it's flowing better and you're not freezing up or thinking or getting in your own way. It's interesting that it's not just one training modality that's going to get you the big picture of improvement. Sometimes, you hit the bag, trying to be light as a feather and retract really well. Other times, you're trying to punch all the way through the bag. Sometimes, you're trying to be as fast as you can. Sometimes, you have to slow it all the way down and try to draw the perfect pathway. With those even just four or five little modalities there, think about going into any other avenue of your life to get a response from a friend or to get a response from your child or your pet, to train my cat how to shake hands. I had to try a few different ways to get my daughter to want to dress her self \[laughs\] . You've got to try a few different ways and a few different things. Yes, it does translate very, very well if people are willing to be a bit abstract with their thinking. **Sonny:** Okay. Talk about abstract thinking, in my mind, teaching your cat to shake hands is pretty abstract. Am I wrong? I don't own a cat, but that doesn't seem like everyone's thought that one. **Brian:** The first time trying to get him to shake hands was like I'd touch his paw to try to make him give it to me, and he didn't quite get it. He was just looking at me like I'm trying to start a fight so he bites me, which he's doing right now. Obviously, trying to get food involved, but then you've got to make sure he's properly hungry. It's like, "Do I do it during the day? Do I do it at night? Do I do it in the middle of the day?" Funny enough, the one that got it with our cat was my daughter. My daughter actually taught him how to shake hands. I'm sitting here racking my brain trying to figure it out how to get through to him, and then I just handed the treats to my daughter and say, "You try," and then she does it \[chuckles\] . **Sonny:** Interesting. **Brian:** Very interesting. **Sonny:** Would you say a little bit of abstract thinking has influenced your martial arts career or was it the martial arts that maybe made you see the benefit of abstract thinking? **Brian:** I think I was always like that. When I wrestled, I had different ticks and different internal processes than my teammates, and because I had teammates, the same teammates, a couple of them from the time I was 8-years-old all the way until 18, we would actually talk about how we trained, not just, "Oh, I took you down today," and, "Oh, you got me a good one." It was like, "When you're hitting 20 double A's, what are you thinking about?" We all had a little bit of a different answer to that question, so it made me realize there's different ways to skin a cat kind of thing. Getting our brain and body to connect is different for everyone, but it has to be done for everyone if they're going to get efficient and proficient at things. **Sonny:** Okay. It was your way of just chatting to people about what happened in training and noticing that everyone took away something a little different or saw things a little differently that opened you up to the idea that that's occurring and there's maybe a way to use that to your advantage? **Brian:** Yes, and that's why I look at everyone as unique. I don't train everyone exactly the same. I don't speak to everyone exactly the same, which is the one nice thing. In the scholastic sports, it's a lot of teams speeches or team talks, which is good in one way because you can say something that might only be about one or two players but you're saying it to the whole team, and it's up to the individual to figure out whether that's a general speech, whether it's actually talking about you in particular \[chuckles\] or your mindset in particular because there's some speech where you're like, "He's not talking about me. The coach is razzing on someone, I don't know who it is, but this isn't about me, but I'll just sit here and suffer anyway." Whereas, the martial arts thing, I get a lot more one-on-one time with my athletes. I do have to take into account how they're motivated, what view they take because you can really push someone the wrong way and get a completely different result and put them off. Like I said about my early, early wrestling coaches, they made everything fun. Even the challenges have to have some semblance of the dangling carrot or a bit of fun to get people to respond. **Sonny:** Okay, that makes sense. I hear that. Is there anything that you would say outside of your martial arts experience that has given you different perspectives that you found useful when going back into martial arts, things that you've taken outside? Maybe a different form of art that hasn't been able to translate over for you? **Brian:** Can you rephrase that one time, sorry? **Sonny:** Sure. There's the benefit of seeing different perspectives within martial arts training and knowing that each individual needs to be treated as an individual, and you've taken that from abstract thinking. Is there anything abstracting from that? Is there anything outside of martial arts practice that people wouldn't necessarily associate with martial arts that maybe has helped inform your journey in martial arts? Maybe, maybe not. **Brian:** I was a history major in college. Not that I got all deep and I didn't have a major specialty, I just wanted to be a history teacher in high school. I basically just had to know-- I didn't have to specialize in English history or this or that, I just had to know how historians operate, how they do their research. All the reading and all the stuff, you come across history repeating itself over and over and over, but it always has different little wrinkles. Wars were waged for the same reasons over and over and over, but it always seemed like it was a different emotional trigger that would get a leader or a warlord to decide they wanted to take someone over. Whether it was a slight or whether it was they have that resource that I really like, the shiny sparkly thing over there, I'm going to go attack them and take that from them. I always find that very interesting. Then, having a bit of a mathematical mind and taking finite math was probably one of the weirdest, most interesting classes I ever took. It talked about like chaos theory and we used to do stuff like drops of ink and how they splatter, and how somehow mathematically, it makes sense, and trying to get my mind around stuff like that. I found it very odd, but statistics and order have always resonated an interesting way with me. Everyone thinks they're unique, but if you take a bigger sampling, they're not, but then again, you can't-- If I try to judge what you're going to do next, I couldn't. You'd be unpredictable. On a larger set of a million, it would be predictable. There's going to be a certain percentage that this, this, this, and this. I know I'm getting a bit out there with it. **Sonny:** I know but keep going. **Brian:** It's hard to explain exactly. **Sonny:** It's funny, actually, you say you're getting out of it, but it's one thing that keeps coming up in different avenues with conversations with different martial artists is the idea of chaos and order and informing different training practices. It's like a little test tube where, obviously, things we know for sure can get very chaotic in the training room. **Brian:** I see it all the time. Yes, it gets a bit ugly, it gets a bit chaotic. We try to make things look pretty on the mitts all the time. We try to make things look pretty with a grappling drill, and you see some of these flow drills that people do that are amazing. The mitts one is easy for me. I'll get guys on the mitts that look good when I stand still, and then as soon as they throw their jab, I back up half a step and then their cross and their hook fall short, and they don't know why and I'm like, "Because I moved and you didn't." Then, they start moving and they follow me, they follow me, and then I stand still after three or four reps, and they run into me and they're too close. They're like, "How do I fix that?" I'm like, "What do you mean? It's just up to you to fix it." If you're trying to maintain a certain distance, it doesn't matter what I do, you got to maintain that distance or you just got to call it quits. The first thing I'll start doing is drifting back, then I'll start drifting left and I'll start drifting right and make them finish their combo. It's very interesting how some guys can shift their stance without thinking about it and how other people have to break it down, the way each individual process that problem. For me, as a coach, it's just introducing a bit of order, get them on 10, 15 good reps, and then do something slightly different where they need to make an adjustment, and then problem solved like, "How are we going to do that? Are you going to stop and think about it? Are you going to be hard on yourself or are you just going to get on with it, see if it works and go?" Then, there's times I'll have someone on the same combo for a while, and I'll throw a different strike at him in the middle just to see if they pause or hesitate or play. You're going to throw a jab-cross-hook, I'm going to catch jab-cross, and I'm going to throw an inside leg kick while you throw the hook. Then, the next time, I'll throw an outside leg kick, and then the next time, I'll lift up a knee, and then the next time, I'll try to keep you on your jab, things like that. It's very interesting to see the different responses that they have, but in the end, they all start to realize that I'm just trying to put them off of their path, and it's their job to find a way to stay on their path because when it comes to sparring, it's going to get even worse. That's one of the few ways I try to mix sparring-type pressure and just shaking things up into mitts. As we were talking about before, it's just me introducing a little bit of chaos to what had been perfect order in the previous reps. **Sonny:** Is that somewhat influenced then by your-- you just mentioned that study of chaos theory, eavesdropping on the--? **Brian:** Yes, a little bit. When we used to wrestle, we'd hit like 20, 30, 40 double legs. At the time, again, was when I was taking some of these interesting math classes and I had some really cool teachers. If no variable changes, then nothing should change but then nothing can improve. If you're going to hit 20 double legs on me in 2 minutes and I just stand there, that's easy, but then if I sprawl 100% all the way, that's one response, fair enough, and it might be difficult, but it's not the only response you're going to see in a live match. If I can break down my sprawl into like a quarter and a half, three quarter and full, and then I can add a bit of left and right, and then even instead of sprawling, sometimes, actually hitting in and walking into you, now, I've got six responses I can give you over your 20 reps. Now, you don't know which one's coming, but you have to shoot on as double legs every single time. **Sonny:** Wow. I really like that. **Brian:** If I just stood there you, don't even to shoot on double legs at me. I've stood there for 10 reps and on rep number 11, I've taken one tiny step back and I've completely thrown people off and they were like, "What are you doing?" "Look at what are you doing? You're shooting the double leg, and now you're up here talking to me. I'm supposed to be laying on the mat underneath you right now." "Yes, but you moved." "Isn't your opponent going to move?" "Yes, that makes sense." Then, they understand what I'm doing, but then to get someone else to do that as a partner is actually hard because they might not have the same outlook as you. I find it super frustrating when I'm with a partner and I get no other feedback other than the one thing, and sometimes, that one thing is true stillness. Sometimes, it's, "I'm going to stop you at all cost from shooting this shot," and it's like we're drilling. I'm supposed to be hitting 15 or 20 of these before we do the next thing, but you're just trying to spar right now. There's got to be a lot of stuff in the middle that we can play with that's not completely taking away your opportunity to finish your drill, but it's also making your drill a unique journey to the finish. Imagine, you go for a **\[unintelligible 01:14:01\]** from north-south and you sit me up on my side, and I just shake the arm that you're trying to **\[unintelligible 01:14:06\]** , that's going to be a bit more difficult than if I just hold my hand with my other hand and wait for you to separate my hands. **Sonny:** That added benefit then of just each drill giving people some defensive feedback, not just being-- but a different kind of defensive feedback every time. **Brian:** Yes. Even if you're going to go mount armbar, if I just bump and shake and play consistent, not hard, not intense, but just consistently just move my torso, have fun. You got to find your spot to hit that arm marks. It's going to be a lot different than from stillness. Imagine picking up a fish that doesn't really want to be in your boat. Some of them go really hard, really consistent. Other ones are really smart and they play possum. They go still in your hands and they hang out, and they hang out, and as soon as they feel you're relaxed, bop, bop, bop, bop, and they're going. I have lost a lot of fish like that where they play still and then they go. That's influenced some of my game as well, especially submission escapes. I'm dead to rights, you've got me, you've got me, I'm in a bad spot, but I'm going to surprise you with my one last ditch attempt as best as I can to make it hard for you to hold though. **Sonny:** Right. Your submission escapes which you're notoriously hard to submit, even saying that guillotine chokes are a miss- **Brian:** They are. **Sonny:** -your submission escapes were actually influenced by fish. Did I hear that right? **Brian:** True story, absolutely. **Sonny:** That's fascinating. **Brian:** Absolutely. When you hold onto a wet fish that doesn't want to be in your arms, it's not easy. **Sonny:** When you're escaping submissions, you're trying to emulate that. I understand it. It makes sense. **Brian:** Look how hard they change directions too. They're not going to one direction and running from you. They don't have feet. It's just small direction changes. They undulate and they play and it's just short, sharp movement, and it creates space. Like a jackhammer, you can't really play tug-of-war with a jackhammer, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta. You can't even keep the grip, which changes directions too fast. All these little odd things out in the world definitely can be related back to human movement and a methodology. **Sonny:** Okay, I like it. It's surprising, it's not even the only time we've talked about fish and grappling this week. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I'm always surprised by how the things do always interconnect and relate to each other. It's fascinating. I have to ask about the guillotine is a myth thing because I put it to you, Mr. Ebersole, the guillotine is not a myth. How about that? \[chuckles\] Convince me. **Brian:** Here's where it comes from. I know it works sometimes, but it was so frustrating going back and listening to commentators of my flights or even friends or whoever say, "He had you in a guillotine, he had you in a guillotine." Listen, and not to use a curse word, but I want to like, "Listen, butthead, I double legged him and I took him down to side control. Where was this guillotine at? The guy was holding my head, it doesn't mean it was a guillotine. I picked him up, I slammed him on the mat. He held my head so I didn't get up and punch him." That's not a guillotine. There's a big difference between someone controlling a front headlock and slipping in for an attempt to choke you versus some guy putting his armpit on the back of your neck while you lift him up over your head or drive him to the cage or take him down to side guard half control or half guard. It was just more of a frustration of most of the time my head's ever been under someone's arm, it's because I put it there. **Sonny:** I got you. **Brian:** He wasn't guillotining me, he was grabbing my head on his way down to his back. I was taking him down. Now, every now and again, were they able to regain guard? Yes, they were, but most of the time, I would tripod, straighten my neck, and they couldn't apply much pressure. It came out of a frustration of listening to people like, "Oh, he's in a guillotine." I'm like, "I'm in a deep double leg. What are you talking about? I don't care if you're Joe Rogan or not, that's not a guillotine, Joe." Yes, we had a bit of a laugh with it. **Sonny:** Okay, I get you. That makes sense. I've started doing a bit of commentary myself, and I'll give him some empathy because I've found that I'm constantly now worried about doing something that I'm pissing off some dangerous fighter and he'll come back and say, "You said what?" I'll go easy on him. **Brian:** Funny. **Sonny:** It's been a great conversation, Brian. I'll just finish with just one last question. I've had you for a while and it's been really good getting into some of those topics. Just one last question would be if there was any advice you could give yourself back when you first got into martial arts. Let's say when you first started fighting professionally, you go back to your first professional fight, you're the ghost of professional fighting past. What's the advice you would give yourself? **Brian:** Probably to diversify my training a little bit in the sense that I was obviously very wrestler-centric. I would have loved to have had more time around a black belt at a younger age and learn some of those skills, but also diversifying out of the blokey bloke tough guy thing. Not that that was my personality, but that's what the culture was like, so that's what I was given. I didn't have social media to look up like kettlebell, core, pilates, yoga stuff, and that would have been cool. I wish I would have drifted more to those diverse avenues of training because I did meet some really good people along the way, I just didn't gravitate toward them because I didn't think that that was an assist to my martial arts endeavor. I'm a guy that I can barely get into a parallel squat, let alone put my butt to the floor, and I would love to be able to go to China or India and have a cup of tea on my own two feet but being a foot and a half tall. I would love to be able to squat and hang out like that. I would love to be able to open up my hips. I would love to be able to bend over and put my socks on every day with no struggle. Yes, diversifying my training and not just looking at it like, "If I do all the hard stuff, the hard stuff will be easier." Well, sometimes, doing the soft stuff makes the hard stuff easier. **Sonny:** I hear you. Probably, I'll say the same thing. That's something that I'm focusing on now more especially, just trying to get flexible for the longevity side of things because it seems like in early days, you can get away with so much more. **Brian:** Yes, you can get out of bed without being sore every day, but even then, I knew my hips were tight and I knew I wasn't flexible back then. I just didn't know what to do about them. I just didn't see that pathway of like, "Oh, if I just embrace knowledge from hippies, I'll be all right." \[chuckles\] I'm like, "What are hippies going to teach me that is going to help me with fighting?" **Sonny:** Surprisingly, it may be a little bit, I think. **Brian:** A little bit a lot, I think. Look at Jonathan Brookings, he went all the way to India for a couple of years, didn't he? **Sonny:** He's a fascinating guy. **Brian:** He'd be an interesting podcast, hey. **Sonny:** I would love to talk to him, yes. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Hey, this has been a great show. I'd love to do it again. Maybe next time, we can just go straight into hippie talk and get down to that. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Thank you so much for your time, Brian. I appreciate it so much. **Brian:** It was a pleasure. **Sonny:** Absolute pleasure. I really appreciate it. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to look you up, what's the best way that they can go about doing that? **Brian:** I'm on Facebook at Brian Ebersole. That's just a big sports page I've had for quite a while. Direct messages through there will come to me. I don't have a secretary going through all that at this stage, and Instagram, same, [@brianebersole](http://www.instagram.com/brianebersole "http://www.instagram.com/brianebersole"). **Sonny:** Beautiful. I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes for people who want to look it up. Thank you so much, Brian. I'll be in touch, and hopefully, we can talk again in the future. **Brian:** Hopefully, we can get on the damn mats in the future. **Sonny:** I hear that mate. I hear that. **Brian:** That would be a pleasure. We could just do this off of one device. **Sonny:** Let's do that. Let's do that. Hopefully, in the next six months. ![Brian Ebersole Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/brian_tsbb_promo.jpg "brian_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling With Greg Souders & School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) **Published:** September 7, 2024 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_66_wide-1024x576.jpg "The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling › Sonny Brown")I talk to Andy from School of Grappling and Greg Souders from Standard Jiu-Jitsu about the ecological approach to teaching grappling. We explore the theory and practice of this method, discussing experience, perception, and consciousness. Andy focuses on phenomenology and subjective experience, while Greg emphasises ecological dynamics. We also cover [self-directed learning,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/) instruction methods, and the form-function relationship in techniques. This discussion underscores the importance of holistic, adaptable learning environments in martial arts training. ### Listen to Greg & Andy ### YouTube ### Topics #### Balancing Explicit Instruction and Self-Discovery in Coaching Finding the right balance between providing explicit instruction and allowing for self-directed learning is a crucial challenge in grappling coaching. Some argue for a hands-off approach, emphasising the importance of environments where students can discover solutions independently. This aligns with the ecological approach, suggesting that engaging with challenging but manageable problems helps students develop a deeper, more intuitive understanding of grappling principles. Others advocate for occasional explicit instruction, arguing that direct guidance can accelerate learning or help students overcome persistent obstacles. The optimal balance likely shifts depending on factors such as the student's experience level, the complexity of the skill being learned, and the specific learning goals. The concept of 'aha moments' or sudden insights is crucial to the learning process. These moments of clarity might occur through self-discovery or be facilitated through specific coaching interventions. Observational learning and mimicry also play important roles, with watching others potentially leading to embodied understanding and skill development. This debate raises important questions about the nature of learning in physical disciplines and how coaches can best facilitate skill development while fostering student autonomy and problem-solving abilities. #### The Form-Function Debate in Grappling Techniques The relationship between form and function in grappling techniques is a subject of ongoing debate. One perspective advocates for a more functional approach, focusing on outcomes rather than named techniques. This view suggests that what matters is not whether a movement fits a predefined form, but whether it achieves the desired result. It argues that naming specific techniques might actually limit practitioners' creativity and adaptability. While acknowledging the importance of function, an alternative view argues for the value of naming common patterns for ease of communication. This perspective suggests that named techniques emerge naturally as efficient solutions to common problems in grappling, and that having a shared vocabulary can facilitate learning and discussion. This debate touches on deeper questions about categorising and communicating physical skills in grappling. It explores how movements are organised and optimised, and how understanding both form and function can enhance learning and performance. It reflects broader philosophical questions about the nature of skill in physical disciplines, the relationship between theory and practice, and how we can best understand and communicate complex physical actions. #### Interdisciplinary Approaches to Analysing and Teaching Grappling Integrating insights from various disciplines can significantly enhance grappling instruction and analysis. This interdisciplinary approach reflects the complex nature of grappling as both a physical and cognitive skill. Coaching cultures from judo and [wrestling have influenced and could further benefit jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) instruction. The more developed pedagogical approaches in these disciplines might be adapted for jiu-jitsu coaching, fostering valuable cross-pollination between grappling disciplines. Concepts from physics can be applied to understand grappling mechanics, analysing forces, leverage, balance, and biomechanics to optimise movements. Cognitive science offers another valuable perspective, exploring how grapplers process information, make decisions under pressure, or develop intuitive responses to complex situations. The philosophical perspective, particularly phenomenology, complements more scientific approaches by considering the subjective experience of grappling. This encourages reflection on how practitioners make sense of their experiences and how this understanding can inform coaching practices. This interdisciplinary approach can lead to a more holistic understanding of grappling, informing both analysis and teaching methods. It allows coaches and practitioners to draw on a wide range of tools and perspectives to enhance their understanding and [practice of grappling,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/) underscoring the discipline's complexity and the need for diverse approaches in its study and instruction. #### The Role of Culture and Environment in Grappling Development The influence of gym culture and training environment on a grappler's development is significant. The social, cultural, and physical aspects of training spaces shape learning and skill acquisition in grappling arts in profound ways. From an ecological perspective, the concept of 'niche construction' describes how a gym's culture shapes the practitioners, and in turn, the practitioners shape the culture. This mutual influence creates unique [training environments that can significantly impact the skills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) and attitudes developed by grapplers. Different gym cultures might emphasise various aspects of grappling, such as competition, self-defence, or personal growth. These cultural differences can lead to the development of different skill sets and mindsets among practitioners. The physical setup of training spaces, including gym layout, available equipment, and class scheduling, also plays a crucial role in skill development. Social dynamics, including relationships with training partners, the influence of senior students and instructors, and the impact of the broader grappling community, can either facilitate or hinder learning and skill development. Broader cultural factors, such as societal attitudes towards martial arts or grappling, can shape the training environment and the goals of practitioners. Different cultural approaches to grappling instruction, from traditional hierarchical structures to more modern egalitarian approaches, each have their own pros and cons. These different cultural models might be more or less effective for different learning goals or types of practitioners. Considering the broader context in which grappling skills are developed, beyond just the technical aspects of instruction, is crucial. Coaches and gym owners should be mindful of the culture they're creating and how it impacts their students' development. This perspective emphasises that grappling is not just an individual pursuit, but a community practice shaped by collective experiences and shared values. ### Resources #### Links - [School of Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/ "School of Grappling Instagram") - [Greg Souders Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/gdsouders/ "Greg Souders Instagram") - [Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website](https://www.standardjiujitsu.com/ "Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** Adaptive Martial Arts, BJJ, BJJ Coaching, Critical Thinking In MMA, Ecological Approach, Experiential Learning, Grappling Instruction, Holistic Training, Movement Science, Self Directed Learning --- ### [Embodied Grappling Philosophy & Practice With Andy From School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/) **Published:** August 11, 2024 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Embodied Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_65_wide-1024x576.jpg "Embodied Grappling › Sonny Brown")I talk to Andy from School of Grappling about the rising trend of the ecological approach in BJJ coaching and its implications in comparisons to his ideas of embodied grappling. We explore the interplay between culture, coaching methods, and individual motivation in training. Andy shares insights on the limitations of singular approaches and the need for a holistic perspective in creating supportive training environments. We discuss the impact of social media on Jiu-Jitsu culture, the importance of caring as a coach, and the delicate balance between business and coaching. Andy also delves into the transformative power of grappling, the role of failure in learning, and his vision for bringing grappling back into the public sphere as a meaningful practice. ### Listen to School Of Grappling ### YouTube ### Topics #### The Importance of Care in Coaching and Learning Care is at the heart of effective coaching and learning in martial arts. It's not just about the techniques or drills; it's about creating an environment where people genuinely care about their practice and each other. This concept, rooted in the philosophy of Martin Heidegger, suggests that our perception of the world is fundamentally shaped by what we care about. In the context of grappling, this means that coaches should focus on fostering a culture where students are invested in their own progress and the progress of their training partners. It's about building relationships and understanding that each person's journey in martial arts is unique and deeply personal. #### Balancing Intuition and Explicit Thought in Embodied Grappling Grappling isn't just about instinctive reactions; it's a constant interplay between [intuition and conscious decision-making](https://www.sonnybrown.net/grappling-intuition-instincts/ "School Of Grappling On Developing Grappling Intuition & Instincts"). Andy introduces the idea that practitioners often flow intuitively during a match or sparring session until they encounter an unfamiliar situation. At this point, they need to reorient themselves using more explicit thought processes or heuristics. This balance is crucial for effective learning and performance. It's not about choosing one approach over the other but rather understanding how intuitive and analytical thinking can work together to improve one's grappling skills. #### The Cultural and Social Aspects of Martial Arts Training Martial arts training, particularly grappling, is deeply embedded in cultural and social contexts. The podcast explores how the environment of a gym, including its customs, rules, and social norms, significantly influences how people train and what skills they develop. This 'niche construction' in ecological terms means that the culture of a gym shapes the practitioners, and in turn, the practitioners shape the culture. It's a reminder that martial arts training is not just about individual skill development but also about being part of a broader community with its own unique characteristics. #### Rethinking Embodied Grappling Beyond Competition While competition is an important aspect of martial arts, the podcast challenges the notion that it should be the primary focus. Andy advocates for a [broader perspective on grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/ "Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano With Andy From School Of Grappling"), one that encompasses its potential for personal growth, social bonding, and even philosophical exploration. He parallels the ancient Greek concept of the palaestra, where physical training was intertwined with intellectual and social development. This view encourages practitioners and coaches to see grappling not just as a sport, but as a holistic practice that can contribute to various aspects of life beyond the mats. ### Resources #### Quotes > I always believe failure is the most important part of any practice. Not only for learning skills but also for learning how to deal with failure, right? To get back at it and through them, for the people who stay, will inevitably, we all know, they will see improvement and they will have the sense of, I can do tough things. > Every theory, every method has its limits and its biases. And in order to have a holistic approach of anything, you have to deploy many methods and many theories. > I don't care about competition and about medals. I think it's a part of grappling. And it's a part I enjoy, but it's not for me the most meaningful element of grappling at all. It's the intimacy and the relationships. #### Links - [School of Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/ "School of Grappling Instagram") - [Posture Position Connection Condition Post](https://www.instagram.com/p/C-QgiKat_FK/ "Posture Position Connection Condition Post") - [Embodied Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/embodiedgrappling/ "Embodied Grappling Instagram") - [Grappling with the World Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/grappling_with_the_world/ "Grappling with the World Instagram") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast **Tags:** amateur-athletics, coaching-techniques, ecological-dynamics, embodied-cognition, grappling, jiu-jitsu-culture, martial-arts-philosophy, phenomenology, sports-psychology --- ### [The Martial Artist's Journey & Growth Through Adversity](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-martial-artists-journey-growth-through-adversity/) **Published:** August 4, 2023 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Martial Artist's Journey](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/The_Martial_Artists_Journey--1024x576.jpg "The Martial Artist's Journey › Sonny Brown")The Martial Artist's Journey provides a path to self-improvement by challenging the mind and body. Their origins lie in philosophies of honour, self-mastery, and service to others. Though combat stands at the core, martial arts refine character, foster wisdom, and build community. Like all deep pursuits, excellence demands perseverance. Progress stalls, setbacks occur, but a commitment to the process brings success. There are no shortcuts, but the struggle strengthens those brave enough to endure. Take the first step and the way will reveal itself in time. ## Adopting a Growth Mindset ### Life is Practice In martial arts, the journey never ends. Mastery is a horizon that perpetually recedes. Each new height reveals greater heights yet to scale. Absorb this lesson in your life’s work. Remain a humble student, however far you advance. The master engages each moment as an opportunity to perfect their art. ### Small Lessons Yield Great Progress Attempting to absorb vast knowledge produces confusion. Break endeavours into digestible increments mastered iteratively. Failures contain lessons showing where to improve. By accumulating these micro insights over the years, global understanding emerges. Daily practice of basics builds the foundation to execute advanced techniques instinctively. Devote yourself to lifelong learning. ### Your Only Opponent is Yourself Forget what others do and hone your abilities. While comparison provides context, obsession with besting others distracts you from fulfilling your potential. The crowd's praise means nothing. Strive only to match your skills of yesterday. Each day, inch closer to your ideal. The only opponent that matters is the you of the past. Defeat yourself. ### Maintain a Beginner's Mind Entering training empty of expectations allows [rapid learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/). Preconceptions blind you to solutions. The novice questions fundamentals the expert takes for granted. Yet even masters remain ignorant of greater truths. Embrace unfamiliar tools and ideas, no matter your rank. The foolish rigidly follow convention. The wise adapt techniques to suit their needs. ## Pushing Past Physical Limits ### Destroy Weakness Through Exertion Strenuous exercise breaks down muscle so it can rebuild stronger. Without regularly testing limits, the body and spirit atrophy. Stress inoculates against graver trials ahead. Prepare by deliberately subjecting yourself to hardship. Callous the mind by facing feared situations until they no longer unnerve you. Wear down weakness until only strength remains. ### Master Proper Technique Perfecting form maximizes results from training. Flawed technique engrains bad habits, hindering future progress. Movement must be precise and economical, wasting no energy. Execute not to impress onlookers, but to seamlessly perform when needed. Make routines second nature through rehearsal. Only proper technique applied consistently yields excellence. ### Rest Complements Exertion Even warriors cannot exert full force endlessly. Depletion leads to sloppy technique and injury. Cycle stress and recovery so powers can be fully unleashed when summoned. Moments of relaxation return the clarity needed for intense focus. Conservation preserves strength for decisive action. Rest to work at your best. ### Consistency Conquers All Daily training produces extraordinary results compounded over the years. Skipping even one day is theft from your future self. Motivation falters. Life's busyness distracts. But greatness emerges from habit, not sporadic intensity. The master makes excellence a non-negotiable ritual. Progress never reverses so long as work continues. Keep practising. ## Cultivating a Fighter's Mindset ### Courage is Master of Skill Courage to attempt a feat outweighs preparation. The bold succeed where the capable falter. Without a willingness to risk defeat, skill is meaningless. He who hesitates spends the remainder of the fight upon his back. Develop your abilities so courage arises from faith in them. But unleash them with abandon, holding nothing back. Fortune favors the audacious. ### Pressure Reveals True Skill Anyone can perform when conditions are perfect. But chaos unmasks false skill, punishing those who fold under stress. Warriors remain lucid and strategic as intensity mounts. They execute with precision amidst the mayhem. True mastery appears not during routine training, but when improvisation and instinct take over. Seek adversity to uncover weaknesses and develop grace under fire. You will rise to the occasion. ### Prepare Exhaustively to Vanquish Fear Fear is the product of uncertainty, not an inherent danger. Leave no room for the unknown through rigorous preparation. Envision scenarios, study your enemies, train contingencies until you are ready for any eventuality. Perfect practice makes confidence possible. Anxiety warns that preparation is incomplete. Let fear guide you towards gaps needing attention, never deterring you from your task. ### Win the Inner Battle All obstacles are first confronted within the mind. If overcome in imagination, they hold little sway in reality. Defeat yourself mentally before engaging the external foe. Envision failing to inoculate against fear of it. In your thoughts, suffer every brutality to steel your will. Those who conquer themselves first can conquer anyone they meet. ## Cultivating Character ### Live by Your Code A warrior abides by a code beyond petty rules. Laws govern society, while principles guide the spirit. But law and principle often conflict. Cling to what is right, not what is permitted. Stand firm no matter how fierce the backlash. Right makes might. Integrity imbues actions with meaning, not transient achievement. Your conscience determines your legacy. ### Lead By Example Earn respect by living your principles fully. Others judge leaders by their sacrifices, not speeches. Anyone may talk, but few endure the pain of their convictions. If your walk aligns with your talk, people will follow without command. But hypocrisy breeds cynicism, not allegiance. To inspire others, show them the way through your actions. ### Conquer Arrogance The arrogant pupil believes they already know. They reject fundamentals as beneath them and disdain advice. But there is always more to learn if you remain open. No one [masters an art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/) in a lifetime, let alone a few years of training. Stay receptive to coaching, especially when it bruises your ego. Swallow pride in the pursuit of wisdom. ### Discipline Defeats Distraction Discipline forges serious pursuit from passing interest. Resistance to distraction separates the committed from the capricious. Boredom drives dabblers away while devotees patiently polish. Mastery demands regulating your mind against fluctuating motivation. Make excellence a habit of following absent thoughts or emotions. Adhere to your practices, avoiding entanglements that deter you. ## The Bonds of Friendship ### Seek Kindred Spirits Those sharing your convictions help sustain your commitment. Fellowship eases loneliness on the path less travelled. Exchange ideas to sharpen each other through friction. But avoid echo chambers by welcoming contrarian views. Band together with other travellers to share burdens and speed progress. Alone, the journey is far more arduous. ### Respect Opponents, Not Enemies Treat adversaries with dignity, never disdain. Without a worthy rival, there can be no victory. You need each other to draw out your gifts. The greater the opponent, the more they force you to expand. Defeat enemies, but honour them for revealing your limits. Like iron, we are sharpened against strong partners. See them as indispensable allies. ### Pass the Torch Veterans must welcome and uplift newcomers, not hoard wisdom. Share hard lessons to smooth the next generation's passage. A master produces more masters, compounding their contribution. We inherit from past giants and repay this debt to the future. Pull along those who lag without resentment for slowing your own progress. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. ### Temper Judgment with Compassion Recognize but not revile those lost in darkness. With different fortune, their path could easily be yours. Hatred harms the vessel carrying it more than its target. The road to redemption begins by opening the door. Progress depends on elevating those willing to change, not condemning the misguided as beyond hope. Lead by light, not might. ## The Martial Artist's Journey The martial artist's journey cultivates strength, courage, and wisdom. Along the way, you will be battered, exhausted, and discouraged. But hardship shapes those brave enough to endure it. Heroes emerge from tests that crush the weak. Stay faithful when progress stalls. What doesn't defeat you, makes you stronger. Keep advancing steadily on the path and the destination will reveal itself in time. The only failure is abandoning your quest because its end remains obscured. Trust the process. You will look back one day astonished at how far you've come. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts **Tags:** community, jiu jitsu, martial artist, martial arts, mental toughness, personal growth, philosophy, training, warrior mindset --- ### [Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - How to get better faster!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-get-better-faster/) **Published:** June 8, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** If you are looking to improve your skills in Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, then you need to become a self-reliant learner. Typically we only spend a few hours each week in class, which is not enough to progress in the sport! You need to spend time outside of class learning! Table Of Contents 1. [Prepare your mind to learn](#prepare-your-mind-to-learn) 2. [Establish an emotional connection](#establish-an-emotional-connection) 3. [Phases of learning process](#phases-of-learning-process) 4. [Block Vs Random Training](#block-vs-random-training) 5. [Block Training](#block-training) 6. [Random Training](#random-training) 7. [I don’t believe you! Show me stats!](#i-dont-believe-you-show-me-stats) 8. [I need more!](#i-need-more) 9. [Lizard Brain - Amygdala](#lizard-brain-amygdala) 10. [How do I fix it?](#how-do-i-fix-it) 11. [Learned Helplessness](#learned-helplessness) 12. [Learned Helplessness in BJJ](#learned-helplessness-in-bjj) 13. [Three stages of learning](#three-stages-of-learning) 14. [Over Researching](#over-researching) 15. [Failing to get better – Do’s](#failing-to-get-better-dos) 16. [Failing to get better – Don'ts](#failing-to-get-better-donts) 17. [Mistakes are feedback](#mistakes-are-feedback) 18. [Ask Why.. then why, how & what.](#ask-why-then-why-how-what) 19. [Becoming a self reliant learner](#becoming-a-self-reliant-learner) 20. [Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu On Youtube](#learning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-on-youtube) 21. [Jiu-Jitsu Books](#jiu-jitsu-books) 22. [Instructionals](#instructionals) 23. [Magazines and Podcasts](#magazines-and-podcasts) 24. [Learning Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu at Seminars](#learning-brazlian-jiu-jitsu-at-seminars) 25. [Attitudes](#attitudes) 26. [Randomness](#randomness) 27. [Boost your learning outside of BJJ](#boost-your-learning-outside-of-bjj) 28. [Become a teacher](#become-a-teacher) 29. [Don't recreate the wheel](#dont-recreate-the-wheel) 30. [20 hours not 10,000](#20-hours-not-10000) 31. [Mind maps](#mind-maps) 32. [Types of sparring partners](#types-of-sparring-partners) 33. [Flow rolling with a purpose](#flow-rolling-with-a-purpose) 34. [Final thoughts On Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu](#final-thoughts-on-learning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu) ## **Prepare your mind to learn** ![Accelerate The Process Of Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull01-300x200.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull01 › Sonny Brown") - Try to be in a happy, accepting state. - Try to not be negative about what has been going on in your day - If you need sleep and can afford to get more rest, [SLEEP](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-in-and-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!")! If you have bad breath and that bothers you, BRUSH! If you have little pet peeves, which are bothering you, FIX THEM. The more that you have to keep your brain from wandering to the better!!!) - You must do something calming yet slightly active for exactly 10 minutes before class. If you do warm ups, then this is a good start but consider walking on the treadmill for 10 minutes and listening to music before you start your training. Stretching and listening to music is also good. *<http://www.wikihow.com/Enhance-Your-Learning-Ability>* ## **Establish an emotional connection** #### Why do we want to do better? - [Competition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-mindset-abstract-thinking-wrestling/ "Brian Ebersole on Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling") - Exercise - [Weight Loss](https://www.sonnybrown.net/weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj-dr-reid-reale/ "Weighty Issues of Weight Loss and Weight Cutting for Combat Sports with Dr Reid Reale") - Self defense - Social Interaction - Learn a new skill Establishing an emotional connection makes you learn faster. Think of all the subjects in high school that you didn’t want to learn. They were the most difficult ones for you, while others that you enjoyed seems to be easy. ## **Phases of learning process** - **LEARNING PHASE:** This is the initial phase. Generally this is when an instructor is showing you a technique for the first time and you are just beginning to start to learn it. Try to watch the instructor carefully and break the move into 4-5 small chunks. Write them down if you want. - **RE-ITERATION PHASE:** Begin to drill the techniques. Try to replay the steps in your head. Saying them under your breath if you want to. - **REPEAT:** Repeat the above steps for all the techniques - **DO:** Try to put yourself in the situations you learned that class - **RETAINMENT PHASE:** At the end of rolling try to recall each step of each technique you learned in class. Then later that night when you are going to bed do a mental check to see if you can remember the techniques you learned. - **RE-DO PHASE:** The next day in the morning commit a few minutes to trying to remember the techniques you learned. Using as many senses as possible to recall them. Saying them out loud or writing them down will help too. The last part is to work them into the next grappling session you have along with the new techniques you learned that day. ## **Block Vs Random Training** #### **Block Training** Blocked Practice is what you see in gyms across America. These are all of the ‘traditional’ practice techniques that we thought were best. Block is when you work on one particular skill or technique at a time – think drilling 100 armbars at a time #### **Random Training** Random Practice is a motor learning technique that creates a random and highly variable environment for development. Rather than focusing on just one skill or technique at a time. This will combine several techniques and skills in a random fashion ### **Block Vs RandoM In Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu** **We already do this!** The great part is most gyms already are set up this way. You first learn via block than random. However, you need to make changes to make sure you are getting the most benefit from it! ## **Block Training** - Technique Learning - Situational Drilling with no variables This is still necessary, in my opinion. You need to learn the skill in an organized fashion first. Concentrate on [learning the technique and establish links to previous techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) or ideas. ## **Random Training** - Live Grappling - Slow Rolling - Situational Drills with changing variables When rolling, try to put yourself into positions that you are still learning or have just learned to refine the new technique. Don’t always rely on tried and true techniques. Allow yourself to fail. ### **So what are you saying?** During the ‘extra’ batting practice sessions: - Each player in the Block Training group would receive 45 total pitches in a block pattern (15 curveballs, 15 fast-balls, 15 change-ups) - Each player in the Random Training group would receive 45 total pitches in a random pattern (curve, fast-ball, fast-ball, change-up, curve, etc…) - Two acquisition tests were performed to measure progress during the six week experiment. At the end of the acquisition phase a random transfer test was performed where all the players received 45 pitches and the number of ‘quality hits’ were measured. *http://championshipbasketballschool.com/2013/10/08/block-vs-random-practice* ## **I don’t believe you! Show me stats!** A study was done looking into the effects of Block vs Random Practice on shooting a basketball. Students were divided up into two groups. One was trained in a block fashion (shooting the same shot repeatedly) and the other in a random fashion (shooting various shots). During the transfer test, the experimenters measured the students’ success on their first shot attempt (a very game-like measurement because you only get one chance to shoot a given shot). The results were again consistent with other experiments and field tests looking into the effects of Block vs Random Practice. *http://championshipbasketballschool.com/2013/10/08/block-vs-random-practice* [![blockvsrandom](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/blockvsrandom-300x213.jpg "blockvsrandom › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/blockvsrandom.jpg) ## **I need more!** During the ‘extra’ batting practice sessions: - Each player in the Block Training group would receive 45 total pitches in a block pattern (15 curveballs, 15 fast-balls, 15 change-ups) - Each player in the Random Training group would receive 45 total pitches in a random pattern (curve, fast-ball, fast-ball, change-up, curve, etc…) - Two acquisition tests were performed to measure progress during the six week experiment. At the end of the acquisition phase a random transfer test was performed where all the players received 45 pitches and the number of ‘quality hits’ were measured. *http://championshipbasketballschool.com/2013/10/08/block-vs-random-practice* [![blockvsrandom2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/blockvsrandom2-300x178.jpg "blockvsrandom2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/blockvsrandom2.jpg) ## **Lizard Brain - Amygdala** > *The lizard brain is hungry, scared, angry, and horny.* > > ― Seth Godin The lizard brain only wants to eat and be safe. The lizard brain will fight (to the death) if it has to but rather run away. It likes a vendetta and has no trouble getting angry. The lizard brain cares what everyone else thinks because status in the tribe is essential to its survival. A squirrel runs around looking for nuts, hiding from foxes, listening for predators, and watching other squirrels. The squirrel does this because that's all it can do. All the squirrel has is a lizard brain. The only correct answer to 'Why did the chicken cross the road?' is 'Because its lizard brain told it to.' Wild animals are wild because the only brain they possess is a lizard brain. The lizard brain is not merely a concept. It's real, and it's living on the top of your spine, fighting for your survival. But, of course, survival and success are not the same things. The lizard brain is the reason you're afraid, the reason you don't do all the art you can, the reason you don't ship when you can. The lizard brain is the source of the resistance.” ### **So how does this affect mE learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ?** - This is the part of the brain that tells you that you shouldn’t do this technique because you will look dumb in front of the group if you fail. - This is also the part of the brain that tells you that you shouldn’t grapple with the people that are better than you because you are afraid you will lose. - This is also why many people choose not to compete even if it would help their learning process. Watch all of this guys stuff! They are outstanding!! *[Watch Trevor Ragan](https://www.youtube.com/user/SabiSushi1)* ## **How do I fix it?** - Don’t try to fight it. You will lose. Acknowledge it and decide to do the opposite of what it says. - The lizard brain hates change. So make things random. Are you normally a guard player, try to get on top and be a top player for a bit. If you are a top player be on your back. - Treat your sense of fear and anxiety as a benchmark for things that you need to work on and get excited about making improvements there. - Everything is pretty scary at first. Driving a car, riding a bike and the first time you grappled, but once your lizard brain got over the fear it became old hat and now you barely think about it. ## **Learned Helplessness** Learned helplessness occurs when an animal is repeatedly subjected to an aversive stimulus that it cannot escape. Eventually, the animal will stop trying to avoid the stimulus and behave as utterly helpless to change the situation. Even when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness will prevent any action. While the concept is strongly tied to animal psychology and behaviour, it can also apply to many situations involving human beings. When people feel that they have no control over their situation, they may also behave helplessly. This inaction can lead people to overlook opportunities for relief or change. *<http://psychology.about.com/od/lindex/f/earned-helplessness.htm>* ## **Learned Helplessness in BJJ** A great example of this is how they train elephants. When they are young, they tie an elephant to a tree. The elephant tries to break free but is too small to break the tree. After days it gives up. Then when the elephant is bigger and could actually break the tree, it doesn't believe it can, so it doesn't even try. How does this translate to learning in BJJ? Well, when you first start, you are often tapped out several times. This establishes a helpless mindset. The great thing is that being aware of this helps you stay out of this trap. Everyone is human! Once you acquire enough skill, you will be able to beat that person. The higher skilled practitioners are not unbeatable. They might be right now with your current skill set, but tomorrow is a different story. ## **Three stages of learning** - Cognitive Stage- During this initial stage of motor learning, the goal is to develop an overall understanding of the skill. The learner must determine what the objective of the skill is and begin to process environmental factors that will affect their ability to produce the skill. The teacher must do their best to provide an optimal environment for learning, which may mean removing large distractors. During this stage, the learner mostly relies on visual input and trial and error to guide learning. - Associative Stage – During this stage, the learner begins to demonstrate a more refined movement through practice. Now that the learner has had some practice and has identified various stimuli that may occur, they can focus on “how to do” moving on from the “what to do” in the first stage. Here, visual cues become less important and proprioceptive cues become very important. Proprioceptive cues refer to the learner focusing more on how their body is moving in space and what input is being felt from their joints and muscles. The more practice, the more proprioceptive input the learner receives to aide learning. Therefore, the more practice the better! - Autonomous Stage – During this final stage of learning, the motor skill becomes mostly automatic. Progression to this level of learning allows the learner to perform the skill in any environment with very little cognitive involvement compared to the first stage. *<http://starfishtherapies.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/motor-learning-stages-of-motor-learning-and-strategies-to-improve-acquisition-of-motor-skills/>* ## **Over Researching** Don’t get in this habit! This happens when you first start, and you want to know everything about everything! Your brain can’t process all that data at one time. You have to cut it up into bite-sized chunks. No more than 30-40 minutes of learning. As far as a technique number no more than 4-5. Then get into the art of doing! Once you feel you have really learned those skills, do the next 4-5. Allow your brain to digest the information that you have just fed it. Also, get specific! Please don’t say I want to learn more from the guard. Say you want to learn 4 sweeps from full guard. This will narrow down your dataset and help you master certain positions. Research - Do - Analyze your mistakes - Research - Do - Reanalyze ## **Failing to get better – Do’s** Failures, screw-ups, and unknowns help you build resilience and character, give you insights about your work, yourself, and others, enrich your experiences, test your emotional intelligence, and add to your knowledge and skills. To gain the most from them, you could practice the following dos and don’ts on how to respond: - Feel and Reflect: Fully experience the emotions that come with failure before you jump to the next thing. You owe it to yourself to process the feelings (e.g. sadness, fear or anger) without getting overly attached to them. Speeding up and keeping yourself busy can cause you to miss out on vital lessons. To reap the nuggets, reflect and take a close look at what went awry. Did the mistake arise from a well-intentioned error of judgment or just plain carelessness? Reflecting on what didn’t work helps you learn from your mistakes and get on the right path. - Claim Appropriate Responsibility: Blaming yourself for events that are outside your control or constantly rescuing others signals that you’re taking on too much responsibility. But step up to the plate when your involvement truly matters. Think about your role in the situation and decide what you can do differently and better, going forward. Acknowledge your limits. Do you need more training? Is your workload too much for you to cover? - Admit and Reframe : When you acknowledge your misstep, you free up your energy to refocus on next steps. Get real about what constitutes success–dedicated work and true grit, coupled with mistakes and uncertainty. - Take Effective Action :Forget the word “try.” Set out specific action steps that you must take. If you fail to complete them, regroup and reset. Although trying is better than not trying at all, it gives you wiggle room to avoid committed action. When you focus on doing, you drop the drama associated with trying. *Failures, Screw-ups, and Unknowns \| Dyan Williams* ## **Failing to get better – Don'ts** - Blow Off Failure and Move On Too Quickly: Failure can trigger painful emotions. It can derail you, raise your self-doubt, and heighten your anxiety. It often brings unnecessary stigma and shame. To take the edge off, you might dismiss your failures as trivial or reinterpret them as successes. But adopting an unrealistic, Pollyanna attitude has serious drawbacks. - Blame and Make Excuses: When you don’t take ownership of your actions and choices, you miss out on the chance to correct course. Blaming others or external events can give you a sense of control, but makes it harder for you to effect change. While clueless colleagues or a poor economy might be contributing factors, dwelling on them doesn’t change much. Chastising yourself also adds barriers to bouncing back. - Deny and Cover Up: Ignoring and hiding your mistakes cause you to miss out on the valuable lessons they provide. You are bound to repeat them if you don’t shed light on them. Denying your role in the failure or that a failure occurred thwarts improvement. Find a supportive group or create a learning organization where goof-ups are openly discussed. - Give Up Easily :Stretching and growing involves facing uncertainty and having setbacks. If you are not willing to move beyond your comfort zone, you might feel safe, but surely limit your opportunities. While quitting is not in itself a bad choice, you want to make sure you’re not simply succumbing to fear of failure. This kind of relinquishment leads to regret. Embracing failures doesn’t mean deliberately seeking them or creating a lax work environment. It’s not a call for reckless conduct and disregard of standards. Fear of failure can be healthy when it protects you and doesn’t paralyze you. Failure and mistakes have real consequences. Please do what you must to avoid or minimize them. *Failures, Screw-ups, and Unknowns \| Dyan Williams* ## **Mistakes are feedback** To make mistakes with proper feedback, you need to categorize the mistake into one of three categories. - Fluke - Try not to lump everything into this category, but sometimes they happen. You get flying triangled in 10 seconds. That kind of stuff…. things you know how to defend but it just happened. Don’t worry about these. Keep positive, laugh it off and move on. - Error in the Process - Your technique was off. You left your arm out of position and you got armbarred. Ask your training partner what you could have done better then try to fix it. Use it as a tool for further learning. - Having no information - You are a new white belt and you got swept from De La Riva…. You have no idea what de la riva is… How can you be mad at making a mistake you have no knowledge about. Your mind has built up no memories of this position so it will fail. When these start to come up. Learn about that position. Ryan Hall is a great example of this. No one was doing 50/50 guard and he tore through people that had no clue about this position. So don’t blame yourself, learn about the position and combat it next time. Also don’t get mad at the position or the person doing it to you. Its a learning tool...they are preparing you for when it might happen in competition ## **Ask Why.. then why, how & what.** Ask yourself why you are doing a technique this way. Why are you putting your hand on the collar? Why should my weight be here instead of there? Understanding why will help you better understand every technique. Then you can start to form concepts and generalities that you can use to simplify your game. If you want to go even further, ask yourself Why, How and What. If you don’t know why you do something.. have you really learned it? This concept comes from Simon Sinek. Don’t know why? Ask the instructor… They don’t know? Research it online ## **Becoming a self reliant learner** Use additional resources like: - Youtube - Books - DVDs - Magazines - Seminars - Podcasts Much of these tips will overlap but with a few small differences ## Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu On **Youtube** You will find that everyone generally has the same idea on techniques, for some of the smaller details will change. This is normal, and most of the time, both people can be right. They are just doing the technique slightly different. Tips: - Question your source! Only get videos from people you have found to be good teachers. I will include a list of my subscriptions at the end. - Watch one technique or an idea then search for that same technique to get a different perspective. Do all the steps then do the next technique. No more than 4-5 techniques at one time. - Online watch a few videos and only watch something that you can conceptualize. Basically if you are new hold off on Berimbolo. Not to say that you can’t watch it, but it should merely be as fun activity rather than trying to actively learn - Write the name of the move down. Then take step by step notes on how to do it. Splitting it up into about 5 parts. I use my phone to take notes so I can access them easily. Evernote is a great app for this. - Say the steps out loud. Then try to visualize the video in your head and follow along. - Watch the videos again and see if you missed any piece of info. Yes it will take longer but I would rather have you learn a few techniques well, over learning a bunch poorly. - Then before class watch the videos one more time. Then try it in rolling. Lastly compare what happened to the video a last time. Often videos include small changes to make for defenses. ## Jiu-Jitsu **Books** I actually prefer books over videos, but I think that is due to my learning style. The nice thing is that you can bring books with you. Tips: - Again question your source! Only get books from people you have found to be good teachers. I will include a list of my authors at the end. - Read one technique or idea. Do all the steps then do the next technique. No more than 4-5 techniques at one time. Write the name of the move down. Then take step by step notes on how to do it. Splitting it up into about 5 parts. Even though the technique is already written down, you should explain it in your own words. - Say the steps out loud. Then try to visualize the pictures in the book in your head and follow along. - Read the technique again and see if you missed any piece of info. - Only read and remark on about 4 techniques. Anymore than this and your mind starts to wander. Your brain will also reject it because it seems like a lot of work. To do all this for multiple techniques. ## **Instructionals** Ah, DVDs. I have hundreds of them!!! This is not the way to go. It lowers my bank account, and I haven’t even cracked open half of them. So please take it from me. Buy one set. Go through it systematically, then sell it online and buy another set. For this, it's a combo of Youtube and book theory. - Usually DVDs come in sets of 3, 4 or 5. Find the one with the most relevance to you! For example if you suck at half guard maybe pop in that DVD in even if its really the 3rd DVD. Unless it is teaching a system over the course of those DVDs. - Watch one technique Do all the steps then do the next technique. No more than 4-5 techniques at one time. - Write the name of the move down. Then take step by step notes on how to do it. Splitting it up into about 5 parts. I use my phone to take notes so I can access them easily. - Say the steps out loud. Then try to visualize the video in your head and follow along. - Watch the videos again and see if you missed any piece of info. Yes it will take longer but I would rather have you learn a few techniques well, over learning a bunch poorly. - Then before class watch the videos one more time. Then try it in rolling. Lastly compare what happened to the video a last time. Often videos include small changes to make for defenses. ## **Magazines and Podcasts** I love listening to podcasts and reading BJJ magazines, but this is not where I choose to learn techniques. These take a lighter approach to the learning process. Listen to podcasts and read magazines for more of the lifestyle of BJJ instead of techniques. It also helps you learn who some of the better instructors are and the big names in the sport. Many of the magazines have technique sections, but often they are very complex speciality moves to look cool in the magazine. If you are a high-rank person, give them a shot! If you are a low-rank person, read them over and try to understand the technique's concept. This will help you later when you start getting into more complex techniques. ## Learning Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu at **Seminars** Man! I have a love, hate relationship with seminars. They can be great, and they can be terrible. I have probably attended 40+ seminars in my day. Most are 3 hours. Don’t expect to remember everything! If you can take notes… do it. If they let you videotape for sure, do it… but often people won’t let you. Tips: - Take notes - Realize that you wont remember it all - Do the move the way the instructor asks…(Often you will encounter instructors that do things differently. For instance on armbars some people will say to always grab with your elbows and some will say to always grab with your hands. Do it their way while you are at their seminar. - Try your best to lock in the moves you like - Again if you can video tape it. If they won’t let you … ask if you can videotape yourself doing the move on your phone. Dont disturb the seminar by talking through the video. Just rep the move ## **Attitudes** There are a few things thats can help you learn just by changing your [mindset](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-mindset-abstract-thinking-wrestling/ "Brian Ebersole on Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling"). **Carol Dweck - A Study on Praise and Mindsets** - Have positive expectations about class and about learning- If you come in with a great attitude you are more open to learning. - Anticipate the next move - When your coach is teaching, listen but also try to anticipate the next portion of the technique. This will get you in an inquisitive mindset. If you are right great! If you aren’t it's much more likely to stick because it disrupted your current thought pattern - [Accept feedback](https://www.sonnybrown.net/tum-voorn-jiu-jitsu-inquiry-based-learning/ "An Inquiry-Based Instructional Strategy of Teaching Without Telling With Tum “Energia” Voorn") - If someone tells you that you are doing something wrong try to listen to them. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong but give what they are saying a chance. Again if you go in with a negative mindset you will never believe what they are telling you. - Focus on the positives - maybe you didn’t get the entire technique right or maybe you couldn’t pull it off live. I am willing to bet that you got certain aspects of the technique right. You just need to go back research more, then test more. #### **Ashley Merryman: Top Dog - The Science of Winning and Losing** ## **Randomness** Don’t let randomness change your attitude. Say you hit a particular move 50% of the time. One day you are making a move live, and you fail 5 times in a row. Often this will send someone into a negative attitude. Then your average will actually get a lot worse. Chances are, over time, you will hit the move 50% of the time but don’t allow random spots of failure to change your mindset. Chances are you will get it the next 5 times. That being said, you should go back and see if any other variables were at play. Was the person better defensively, was your timing off, did you forget a step. Please take it as a learning tool and not something you failed at. ## **Boost your learning outside of BJJ** - Do mental puzzles - This is a fun one to do with BJJ too. Try to figure out as many different way you can get to a certain technique or combo. Try to figure out if you can do moves from other positions. Also take stock of all the techniques you know from a certain position. If you can only think of a few, you probably just found your new early for learning. - [Visualize](https://www.sonnybrown.net/efficiency-learning-techniques-making-decisions-mental-models-bjj-steve-kwan/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") and Walking Meditation - Pretty much every day I walk the dog and listen to music. This allows my brain better time to process. Often you will feel like you were on a 5 minute walk and it will be 40 minutes. - Eat right - Not only is it good for your body and learning in BJJ but its good for the mind. - Get some sunshine - Your brain needs vitamin D and melatonin - [Get rest](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-in-and-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!") - Many researchers believe that rest is the most important part to learning. It is what locks it into your long term memory. ## **Become a teacher** I don't suggest this when you are a white belt, but if you are a Blue or higher, this is a great way to learn. It really makes you figure out techniques. The way that I was talking about earlier! Once you have the why, it makes the doing part a lot easier. Teaching also helps build up your confidence. The more confident you are, the less likely you feel ashamed if you make a mistake in front of the group. ## **Don't recreate the wheel** One of the best ways to get better is to research a person rather than a particular position or technique. Try to find someone roughly your same size. Read up about their training and their style. Try to copy it at first, then make it your own. Copy someone that is already in the spot you want to be in. They have created a training plan already. You have to follow it. ## **20 hours not 10,000** Most people have heard the idea that you have to do something for 10,000 hours to master something. This seems pretty daunting, but it has been shown that you can become fairly proficient at something after just 20 hours, especially if it is particular. Essentially about 20 minutes twice a day or one 40 minute session for a month. So do you want to get better at submissions from butterfly guard? Spend two 20 minute sessions per day learning about submissions from the butterfly. After a month, you should be really good at submissions from the butterfly. You have to be specific, though, and you can't double up on skills and expect great results. ## **Mind maps** Use them! Have two mind maps 1\) Techniques that you know 2\) Grappling system complete with all the defences you have been presented with. So say one of your submissions from guard is armbar. Standard armbar. Then on your mind map, some of the children of that armbar on your mindmap should be all the defences you have seen so far and the counter to those defences. This map will be massive but will also help your coach come tournament time. It will lay out all that you plan to do and your reactions to their counters. Try also to do it so that a counter can lead back to another point, much like a flow chart. Rolling is great for testing these. Suppose a new defence comes up. Get excited. It's another to add to your mind map, and you get to research how to combat that one! ## **Types of sparring partners** In live rolls, you will mean 5 types of people. Here is how you should handle each one! **People way worse than you** - Work your new and unrefined techniques when going with these partners. Allow yourself to try new things, and don’t use your “A” game. **People slightly worse than you -** Try to work on more refined techniques mixed in with a few new tricks. Use some of your A-game **Your equals -** Use your main go-to techniques and log the mistakes you found **People slightly better than you -** Work on some of your defences and try to impose your “A” game on them. Allow yourself to fail in new positions **People way better than you -** Work on your defences. Still try to out [technique your opponent but realize the real learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) is coming in your defences. ## **Flow rolling with a purpose** In my eyes, there are two types of flow rolling. **Flow rolling** 1\) Both people grappling with little to no resistance. Both are trying out new moves, having fun and just seeing where the roll takes them. This turns into an almost active meditation state and is great for having fun and learning new gym areas. **Flow rolling with a purpose** 2\) in the second situation, one person goes in with the idea of drilling a specific set of techniques. Their partner helps them get in these situations and allows them to make the move they wish to do. Then they begin to add small amounts of resistance at those particular moves and present different defences to those particular moves. So you will continue to grapple just like your flow drilling but actively trying to put the main trading partner into those positions they want to learn. ## **Final thoughts** On Learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - Be specific in what you want to learn - example I want to learn 3 sweeps from deep half guard - Be random in the way that you learn the techniques. Learning one technique then learning all the defenses and variations of that technique so nothing surprises you. - Use more senses - Hear, Watch, Write it out, say it out loud, recreate it on video - Get much needed rest - Ask why - if you know the why you are much more likely to understand how - Bring a positive attitude everytime to class and your learning - Don't allow yourself to slip into learned helplessness - Become a self reliant learner - Take failures as learning tools - Have fun Source: **[Learning In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - How to get better faster!](https://drive.google.com/open?id=135pz-FSMZAUvJMiFJMbCGr23NDkXFdeyVznpHboF2Uw&authuser=0)** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning --- ### [Ecological Approach vs Progressive Resistance with Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) **Published:** September 7, 2023 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Ecological Approach to BJJ - Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/greg_souders_priit_mihkelson-1024x576.jpg "Ecological Approach to BJJ - Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson › Sonny Brown")I talk to Greg Souders and Priit Mihkelson, two innovative jiu-jitsu coaches of our time, delving into their training philosophies and approaches to practice. Greg champions an ecological approach, centered on constraints and fundamental functions, while Priit's foundation lies in using progressive resistance. We engage in a comprehensive chat about motor learning, and skill development, and compare approaches like ecological dynamics to traditional sequential technique teaching. They break down optimal ways to design training sessions, instruct students, and harness specific skills through games and drills. It's a spirited exchange between two grappling thinkers at the forefront of understanding how to truly master BJJ. ## Listen To Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson ### YouTube ## Topics Discussed ### The Ecological Approach TO BJJ Greg Souders advocates strongly for an ecological approach to learning BJJ, rather than the traditional model of teaching step-by-step techniques. He argues you should [teach the foundational functional tasks of positions and techniques,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) not prescribe specific movements. The constraints guide the emergence of skills based on the interaction between the individual student, the task at hand, and the training environment. Greg believes this approach creates more adaptable, well-rounded grapplers. ### Can You Accurately Prescribe Resistance? Priit asks whether coaches can accurately prescribe levels of intensity and resistance in training. Is there even such a thing as true "maximum effort" that can be quantified? Greg argues you can't calculate resistance and intensity as some external objective measure to provide students. He states that resistance is always relative to the specific task and situation. As beginners have no point of reference, they have to play around with effort levels to attune themselves to the information in training. ### Optimally Structuring Jiu-Jitsu Training Sessions Greg and Priit have an in-depth discussion on how best to structure training sessions and games to elicit the desired skills in students. Priit asks how Greg decides what specific techniques to introduce or whether to use situational end games. Greg states he focuses on teaching the general tasks of making and maintaining connections, managing distance, and destabilizing the opponent that underlies all techniques. He believes the functional solutions emerge naturally through the student exploring these foundations. ### Redundancy in Expert Coaching Greg explains an interesting phenomenon - once the fundamentals of a sport are deeply understood by top coaches, redundancy appears across their methodologies. At the highest levels of coaching, there is a monotonous, almost tedious repetition of general principles, with only slight individual variance in how they're applied. Greg argues much jiu-jitsu coaching is still chaotic today, with many coaches just throwing random solutions at the wall to see what sticks. ## Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson Resources ### Quotes > It's crazy. It took me four years to understand the basic science to even a small degree and took me another four years to implement it into a system that I thought was usable. And I'm constantly adjusting, so I just grind on this all day. I don't do anything else. > > - Greg Souders > Trying to understand how the mechanics, tactics, and functions relate. Totally different way of thinking about what my job is to teach them. That is very challenging. > > - Priit Mihkelson ### Links **Greg Souders Links** - [Previous Greg Souders Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/ "Greg Souders On Teaching Jiu-Jitsu Without Teaching Techniques") - [Greg Souders Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/gdsouders/ "Greg Souders Instagram") - [Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website](https://www.standardjiujitsu.com/ "Standard Jiu-Jitsu Website") **Priit Mihkelson Links** - [Previous Priit Mihkelson Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/ "Priit Mihkelson On Belts, Ranking, Titles & Hierarchy In Jiu-Jitsu") - [Priit Mihkelson Instagram](https://www.defensivebjj.com/ "Priit Mihkelson Instagram") - [Defensive BJJ Website](https://www.defensivebjj.com/ "Defensive BJJ Website") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Luke Martin On Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/) **Published:** April 27, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Luke Martin BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Luke Martin BJJ › Sonny Brown")In this episode, I talk to Luke Martin from [Sydney West Martial Arts](http://www.swma.com.au/ "http://www.swma.com.au/"). Luke is a Jiu-Jitsu instructor I have personally trained with, and for the last few years, he has been pursuing ways of bringing the world-class [John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/down-under-to-danaher-peurto-rico-pro-grappling-providing-entertainment-with-craig-jones/ "Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment With Craig Jones") grappling system into his gym. Despite being based on the other side of the world, for years he has taken weekly online private lessons with Jason Rau and gives many practical tips on how he has been able to pass along these teachings to his students. He also has a podcast called [The Heat Locker](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-heat-locker/id1494561272 "https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-heat-locker/id1494561272") where he has interviews with Jason Rau and other students of John Danaher's from his most recent trip to the Blue Basement in New York City. Table Of Contents 1. [Listen](#listen) - [On Spotify](#on-spotify) - - [On Apple](#on-apple) - - [On Youtube](#on-youtube) 2. [Synopsis](#synopsis) - [Learning The Danaher System](#learning-the-danaher-system) - - [Online Private Lesson Tips](#online-private-lesson-tips) - - [Teaching Jiu-Jitsu](#teaching-jiu-jitsu) 3. [Segment Timestamps](#segment-timestamps) 4. [Show Notes](#show-notes) - [Quotes](#quotes) - - [Resources](#resources) ## Listen #### On Spotify <https://spoti.fi/3AWmckm> #### On Apple <https://apple.co/3D0wNNa> #### On Youtube ## Synopsis Podcast Episode #04 #### Learning The Danaher System **Danaher's Video's Became Useful:** Luke says Danaher's DVDs became a helpful tool for me because John has done a lot of work with the DVDs, particularly the mind systems. Like the Cumorah, the bag, the leg locks, the triangles. He's given the kind of basics of the system, a couple of setups. He's given the preamble and the understanding of the positions, just a lot of good foundation stuff that people knew bits and pieces of, but he explained it really well. **Just The DVD's Are Not Enough** He says, "If you think a 10 hour DVD is going to give you John's back attack system, it's a little bit of broken thinking. So what I'm trying to get out there. It isn't enough if people just grabbed John's DVDs. They're definitely going to become better players. But they're not going to become Gary toner, Gordon Ryan, Jason Rao, Nick Ronan, or Frank Rosenthal. That's what I realized." The nest thing Luke realized was that many people couldn't sit down and listen to everything he's saying and take it on board because he does lecture very much as a university lecturer does. His style is more academic. #### Online Private Lesson Tips **Best Platform He Uses For Online Training: -** FACETIME Tips For People Who Want To Do Private Lessons Online: Luke shares some tips from his years of experience for the people who want to do private lessons online: **\#Tip 1 - Do Not Record Sessions** Do not record sessions with someone unless you've got permission from them to do that. There's nothing worse than trying to film or sneak filming someone, whether it's a seminar or a private session. Because that's the information they are sharing with you, and the person worked very hard for that information. And it isn't polite to assume that you have got the right to film that. Even if you have obtained permission to record them, make sure that you're using the information for the right reasons. **\#Tip 2- Don't Regurgitate Other People's Stuff** We all have seen people trying to show other people's techniques as if they are their own. He says, if you look at his Instagram, you will barely find any method. And if he posted someone else's moves or techniques, he will be giving credit to the owner. If you plan on just blowing it up on your Instagram, then be very honest with the person and say to them, "I'm going to be showing your stuff as if it's mine and just see what they think about it." **\#Tip 3- The Time Zone Difference** Online training has its limitations as well. Managing the time zone problem is one of them and can be a struggle while you're working with international people. It's always challenging to work with a time zone that will suit you and the other person/training partner. So, before selecting your partner, make sure that the timings can be adjusted right for both partners. **\#Tip 4 - Have A List Of Prepared Questions** Online training has its own liberties, but you should prepare a list of questions for your training partner, same as if you're training with them in person. Make sure you have got a list of questions of techniques or positions. There is nothing worse than going to the session and just showing off the cool stuff to submit to this guy, and you won't get the most of it. **\#Tip 5- Consider Why Are You Doing The Training With That Person** You'll be paying good money if the person is decent, but if you're not spending good money, maybe you should consider why you're doing private lessons with them. Anyone worth learning from should be relatively expensive because they are a specialist in their trade. And on a side note, do not try and haggle people on their prices, don't try and ask for a discount. If you can't afford it, don't go to that person and for a private lesson. That's disrespectful if they value their time at a certain figure. **\#Tip 6- Processing The Payment** Make sure that you've talked with whoever you're dealing with on how you will process the payment. PayPal is one of the best payment or money transfer methods, where the money immediately goes to the receiver. It's very unfair to say, "Oh! I've done the bank transfer to you. Maybe you get it in 4 days or something." That's not appropriate because they're giving their time to you on that specific day. And especially if they don't know you, it might be fair to pay them before you start the lesson on the first couple of times until there is a build-up of trust. **\#Tip 7- You Can't Retain Things Immediately** If you're lucky enough to record the session, you need to study every move, position, technique, etc. Unless you are an autistic person, you're not going to be able just to retain things immediately. He says, "I can't remember the techniques from the sessions I did with Jason 2 years ago or six months ago." And also have very realistic expectations that a one-hour session will not make you into Gary Cohn, Gordon Ryan, or whoever it is. They are what they now with years of training. **\#Tip 8- Don't Be Just A Technique Collector** You're not going to get much if you're just a technique collector. You need to understand the why. It all comes down to how people learn and how they learn. And also, there's an evolution of techniques. Techniques we talked about in 2017, we even don't do them now. #### Teaching Jiu-Jitsu **Jiu-Jitsu Is Not Going To Earn You A Lot Of Money** Most people are doing Jiu-Jitsu as a hobby. Making it a career is not going to earn you much money. He says, "None of my students are making money out of Jiu-Jitsu. I barely make money out of this, and I can't stress this enough to people." Everyone who thinks that you are going to be rich for opening a Jiu-Jitsu gym, have a good look into it before you move down the path." **Natural Skills** Some people got a little bit of natural skill. It's definitely something you can work on. People who are not natural presenters can become reasonable to okay presenters, but some people are pretty good to start with and can become quite good. **Teaching Is Not Just About Knowledge** When [teaching adults,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) it's not just about your level of knowledge. You also have to be good at how you deliver that to people. You've got to be good at reading people/a room. There's a difference in how to teach a single person vs. 60 people together. A deep knowledge base and understanding mixed with a delivery method is appealing to people. Teaching adults is a difficult thing. Adults are coming to you, not just because they want to, but also they have to teach the children in school. ## Segment Timestamps \[00:00\] – Introduction to Episode 004 \[01:29\] – Luke’s Backstory \[04:17\] – His Thoughts About Dean Lister \[06:21\] – Why Does He Emphasize Leg Locking \[10:13\] – ABI Was a Form of Submission Grappling \[16:52\] – How Did He Come Into Contact With Jason Rau \[27:46\] – Doing a Not So Financially Profitable Business \[29:07\] – His Thought Process After Knowing Danaher \[33:10\] – How Danaher’s DVD’s Helped Him \[36:46\] – 10 Hours DVD’s Are Not Enough to Get John’s Back Attack System \[39:12\] – The Reason Why Jason and John Put Their Time With Luke \[43:55\] – His Tips to Newcomers \[44:55\] – Best Platform to Do Private Lessons Online \[49:12\] – Have a List of Prepared Questions for Your Training Partner \[51:00\] – Pay Before the Lesson Starts \[54:00\] – Don’t Push an Hour Training to 15–20 Hours \[55:30\] – Technique Collection May Not Help You \[58:00\] – Most People Don’t Know Danaher’s Old Techniques \[01:02:00\] – The Reason Why Luke Got Attracted to Jiu-Jitsu \[01:04:06\] – The Best Way to Ensure That the Level of Instructions in Your School Are Pre-eminent \[01:06:49\] – How Has Overseas Training Impacted His Teaching Style? \[01:08:20\] – Teaching Is Not Just About Your Knowledge \[01:10:00\] – The Issue With Jiu-Jitsu \[01:18:50\] – The Two Types of Confidence ## Show Notes #### Quotes > "Not many people are willing to go (train) to the level they need to get to the point to where they can get an actually usable thing." > > - Luke Martin > "I can see what's there in front of me and the level I want to get to. And the level I want my students to get to. And that has a burning desire inside of me." > > - Luke Martin #### Resources - [Sydney West Martial Arts](http://www.swma.com.au/ "http://www.swma.com.au/") - [Luke Martins Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/leglocklukeaus/ "https://www.instagram.com/leglocklukeaus/") - [SWMA Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/ "https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/") - [The Heatlocker Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-heat-locker/id1494561272 "https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-heat-locker/id1494561272") - [Jason Rau Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/jasonraubjj89/ "https://www.instagram.com/jasonraubjj89/") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Luke Martin BJJ & Jiu-Jitsu Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lukemartin_tsbb_promo.jpg "lukemartin_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [An Inside Look at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/an-inside-look-at-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-and-mental-health/) **Published:** July 28, 2023 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bjj_mental_health-1024x576.jpg "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health › Sonny Brown")After over 15 years of training, I have found that Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) can positively and negatively influence mental health. The positive side of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and mental health I will discuss is how training BJJ can help get you out of isolation, build confidence, promote healthy lifestyles, and provide access to mental health resources. However, potential risks are also present, like using BJJ to avoid therapy, increased competitive anxiety, overtraining, unhealthy social media comparisons, and exposure to toxic teammates. To maximize the benefits and mitigate the pitfalls, I suggest strategies that include cultivating mindfulness on the mats, reframing setbacks as learning, bonding with teammates over struggles, separating BJJ from self-worth, and taking breaks when needed. While BJJ alone cannot cure mental illness, it can set someone on the path to greater mental well-being when approached consciously. ## The Positive Impacts of BJJ on Mental Health ### Getting Out of Your Head Even the simple act of getting out of the house to go to BJJ training can have immense mental benefits. Being isolated at home can lead to negative thought spirals and echo chambers. The commitment involved in travelling to class and being around other people helps break you out of these mental traps. Even when you don’t feel like training, forcing yourself to show up provides a mood boost. ### Building Confidence The process of training BJJ involves constant challenges, whether it’s [learning a new technique,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) sparring with difficult partners, or competing in tournaments. Over time, overcoming these small challenges instils confidence and mental toughness. Each little “win” in BJJ class contributes to a backbone of self-assurance. This confidence can carry over to other areas of life. ### Promoting a Healthier Lifestyle People drawn to BJJ are usually interested in health, fitness, and self-improvement. The BJJ community tends to promote positive lifestyle habits around exercise, nutrition, [mental training,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) and personal growth. Being immersed in this culture can nudge you toward living a healthier, happier life overall. ### Providing Access to Therapy BJJ academies function as tight-knit communities. It has been explained that through this network, you may organically gain access to dietitians, sports psychologists, and other professionals who can help with mental health. Veterans of the academy might share recommendations for quality therapists in your area. The bonds formed on the mats facilitate this helpful exchange of information. ## Potential Risks of BJJ for Mental Health ### Avoiding Therapy in Favor of Training While [BJJ and other forms of exercise can complement therapy](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erin-herle-submit-stigma-mental-health/ "Erin Herle On Submit the Stigma & Mental Health in Martial Arts"), it should never replace therapy and medication. Some mistakenly believe that BJJ alone can resolve mental health issues. However, instructors are not mental health professionals. Relying solely on BJJ could backfire without proper clinical treatment. ### Increased Anxiety Around Competition The stress of an upcoming competition can amplify anxiety. It has been shared that the weeks leading up to a tournament can be filled with snapping at people and being on edge. Obsessively focusing on winning can strain relationships. Learning to compartmentalize training and maintain balance in daily life is essential. ### Overtraining and Burnout Elite competitors may train 4-6 hours daily, but most can only handle 1-2 hours of hard training 3-5 days per week. Attempting an unrealistic training regimen leads to exhaustion, diminished returns, and heightened risk for injury. Listening to your body's limits helps avoid burnout. Consistent rest is crucial. ### Unhealthy Comparisons on Social Media The online BJJ community constantly shares training tips, techniques, and accomplishments. However, consuming this content can promote unconstructive comparisons. You may feel inadequate next to teammates or competitors posting nonstop about intense training. But social media highlights an idealized reality. Your path should focus on daily progress, not others’ perceived success. ### Toxic Coaching and Teammates BJJ will lead you to interact with a diverse range of personalities. While most teammates and coaches are supportive, you may encounter individuals with abusive tendencies or mental instability. It has been advised to be aware that shared interests do not equate to shared values. Protect your training environment and speak up when necessary. ## Strategies for Optimizing the Mental Impact of BJJ ### Cultivating Mindfulness on the Mats BJJ requires deep focus on proper technique, positioning, and timing. Devoting your full attention to these details in the present moment develops your [mindfulness muscles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/). Apply this same mindset when stressful thoughts arise off the mats. Acknowledge anxiety or negative self-talk without judgment and return your focus to the current task. ### Reframing Setbacks as Learning Experiences In both BJJ and life, you will encounter setbacks when a technique fails or you lose a match. How you interpret these moments will dictate their impact on your confidence. Rather than dwelling on failure, view missteps as data gathering. Figure out one thing you can improve on for next time. Small refinements accumulate into major progress. ### Bonding with Teammates Over Shared Struggles Open up about your mental health challenges with trusted teammates. Discover that many face similar struggles with anxiety, depression, trauma, etc. Feel empowered knowing you're not alone. Check-in regularly with each other on mental status. Teammates can provide key peer support. ### Separating BJJ Goals from Self-Worth Avoid tying your self-image to arbitrary markers like belt promotions or tournament performances. View BJJ as a [journey of growth](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-martial-artists-journey-growth-through-adversity/), not a series of outcomes that define you. Evaluate your self-worth outside competitive results. Progress at your own pace based on your values and life circumstances. ### Taking Breaks When Needed Intense periods of [training can exacerbate mental](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) strain. Recognize when you need a break for both physical and mental recovery. A few days off after a competition or during personal struggles can work wonders. You may return with renewed motivation and perspective. Rest is an underutilized training tool. ## Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health BJJ can be a transformative experience with significant psychological benefits. However, the intense nature of training carries inherent risks if not managed consciously. Fortunately, by employing some of the tactics above, you can optimize your BJJ training to lift your mental health rather than take you to darker places. Although BJJ alone cannot “cure” mental illness, its inherent lifestyle factors and lessons on the mat may set you on the path to greater well-being. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [The Warrior Athlete - Body, Mind & Spirit by Dan Millman Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-warrior-athlete-dan-millman-summary/) **Published:** December 16, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Warrior Athlete](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_warrior_athlete-1024x576.jpg "The Warrior Athlete › Sonny Brown")A summary of "The Warrior Athlete", a classic book by Dan Millman that provides an excellent practical and philosophical guide that encompasses the body, mind & spirit of athletic training. Table Of Contents 1. [The Warrior Athlete In Action](#the-warrior-athlete-in-action) 2. [Preparation](#preparation) 3. [Mental Talent](#mental-talent) 4. [Emotional Talent](#emotional-talent) 5. [Physical Talent](#physical-talent) 6. [Techniques Of Training](#techniques-of-training) 7. [Competition](#competition) 8. [The Evolution Of Sport](#the-evolution-of-sport) 9. [Psycho-Fitness](#psycho-fitness) ![The Warrior Athlete by Dan Millman Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/warriorathlete-203x300.jpg)The Warrior Athlete - Body, Mind & Spirit by Dan Millman ## The Warrior Athlete In Action - You can find the natural warrior athlete in any nursery, we often only think of athletes as highly trained Olympians but remember all infants are born with natural athletic ability. - Infants have an incredible ability to learn with a mind that is concept free and therefore entirely receptive. - You were once a natural warrior athlete with unlimited potential, but then the socialisation process gave you fears, associations, beliefs, attitudes and concepts - Your mind learned to criticise yourself and to be afraid of failure. You began to develop emotional constrictions and inhibitions that resulted in physical tension, and as you grew and struggled with gravity, you developed psychological and physical imbalances and compensations. ### **Athletics and the Game of Life** - The simultaneous development of mind, body and emotions will only happen if you perform a task that puts a demand on all three centers. - But most people's lives, jobs and hobbies are very specialised and only place a claim on isolated portions of our full capacity. - To return to the state of the natural athlete, we focus on the balanced development of all three centers. In turn, this will have the best carryover effects on all parts of your life. - Most people just look at athletics as purely physical exercise and recreation with only a casual or random look at developing the mind and emotions. But you can gain far more from athletics and develop your total capacities for life. - You can create a harmony of body and mind to become a new breed of warrior athlete. Gaining access to your original state as a natural warrior athlete that will help you succeed and excel in athletics and daily life. ### The Map is not the territory #### **Understanding the game.** - You can represent the experience of training as that of the journey up a mountain path. - Everyone has their personal mountain to climb, and the peak of the mountain represents your highest potential. If you are going to climb the mountain, it is best to have a map, so you avoid drifting or wandering - Know precisely where you are going and your what your checkpoints and goals are along the way and what obstacles may lie in your way. ### **THE LESSONS OF NATURE** #### **Rules of the game** - The essence of talent is not so much the presence of certain qualities but rather the absence of self and society imposed obstructions. Young children are free of the mental, physical and emotional obstructions that we unconsciously develop in our later years. - This form is seen in nature. Trees bending in the wind shows the principle of nonresistance. Gently running water cutting through solid rock displays the law of accommodation. All things thriving in moderate cycles shows the principle of balance. The regular passing of seasons shows the natural order of life. - These laws are all psychophysical and apply to nature and equally to the human psyche and inseparable from the human body. - The [principles of martial arts training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/ "Four Esoteric Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development") are not just concerned with physical exertion but are a psychophysical challenge. That accepts that the world is not just a static physical environment but is filled with energy, movement, and subtle things found in nature and universal laws. - Through training that incorporates these principles, athletic development will reawaken our innate ability to learn, and the benefits will spill over into our daily life. ### **Principle 1: Nonresistance** - There are four ways to deal with the forces of life. Surrender to them fatalistically, Ignore them and have accidents from ignorance and Resist them which will waste energy and create turmoil. - Or you can use them and blend with nature. Like birds that fly the wind or fish that swim with the current. We can make use of these natural forces, and this is the real meaning of nonresistance. . - Nonresistance is not passive inaction as any rock can do that. Rather it is a great sensitivity and intelligence to flow with the natural laws. - There is no resistance in nature only in the mind of men. The natural warrior athlete has dissolved all resistance. - The natural warrior athlete will see an opponent in competition as a teacher who will show them their weaknesses and help them improve, and they intend to do the same for the opponent. - Through nonresistance, an opponent's movement can be used to your advantage.A well known martial arts principle is softness in the face of hardness, absorbing neutralising and redirecting force. - Problems of daily life should be handled in the same way. ### **Nonresistance: psychophysical applications** - “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction,” - Most actions of socialized man are attempts to either push or slow down the river of life rather than flow with things as they are. - This resistance causes turbulence that is physical, mental and emotional tension. When you fall out of the natural pattern, you will feel the tension. Tension is a subtle pain and a signal that something is wrong. You have to listen to this message and take responsibility for your actions rather than blame life or circumstance. - The most common way warrior athletes resist by “trying”. The moment you “try” you are already tense and assume a weakness in the face of challenge. Trying is the primary cause of the error. When you feel under pressure, you begin to “try”. - This pressure is not a physical object that you could show someone. It is entirely your mental creation as a result of “trying” too hard. - To see this consider walking a small plank between two chairs on the ground and now place the plank on two skyscraper buildings. It may be the same physical task, but you will have a different mental state. - The law of action-reaction causes this mental effect as it will set up mental opposition when you “Try”. Warrior Athletes, who try too hard to stretch, will only feel the muscles tensing in resistance. - The natural warrior athlete never “tries”. They are smooth, relaxed and have a naturally [progressive approach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/). They avoid internal resistance by carefully sneaking up on things, being very subtle and gentle and smoothly flow along with no sudden or jerky movements. - If you play golf don’t swing the club , instead *let* it swing. In life let things happen naturally based on fortune and the complexities of circumstance. Trying to make things happen only sets up turbulence. This is not just semantics but harnessing the force of nature. - By no longer trying you are free of tension and by no longer resisting you can train in full natural ease. ### **Principle 2: Accommodation** - Athletics and life develops what it demands, No demand, no development, small demand, small development. - Demand requires motive. Without motivation to energise a demand it will not be persistent. - Motivation requires meaning. The motivating factor must correspond to your values in life. - Demand must take the form of progressive overload. You must repeatedly and consistently ask a little more of yourself than you are comfortable or capable of dealing with easily. - Development through overload requires a tolerance for failure as it will entail lots of little failures on the way to your ultimate goal . - Tolerance for failure comes from an intuitive grasp of reality and of the natural laws of learning. Unreal expectations produces frustration but realism produces patience. - Training therefore is a process of development through a gradual increase of demand. If realistic, gradual and sensible demands are made on the body, mind and emotions development will take place in these centers. - The human organism will adapt to demands made upon it. This is accommodation which reflects a law that has seen humans evolve and survive through time. - Learning knowledge and building muscles are two kinds of accommodation. - You can grind a rock into a shape but if your grind too quick it will break. The demand for change must be gradual and within our capacity, one step at a time. ### **Accommodation: Psychophysical application.** - Accommodation is a law but we have learned to not trust it by asking ourselves questions like “Can i become good at this?”. These questions and doubts only create tension and weaken motivation. Trust in the natural law at least as much as you trust your own mental noise. - Once you recognise the inevitability of the principle of accommodation you become responsible. You know that your success depends on the demands you are willing to make on yourself. You will get clarity and psychic security because you will know that if you decide to do something it is without doubt within your capacity. ### **Principle 3: Balance** - Balance is a great principle informing every aspect of your body, mind, daily life and training. Simply stated it is “Neither too much nor too little.” - An athlete who is balanced moves neither too fast nor too slow, too aggressively nor too passively, too high nor too low, too far right nor too far left. - Balance determines the correct pace, timing and accuracy that any warrior athlete depends upon. - Applying this to training you become immune to impatience and frustration.You accept that you will naturally have an “up” and “down” cycle because that is balanced and it would be unrealistic to expect a constant “up” state. - This means you are not enslaved by the mental highs and lows of training. Your realism makes you mature, stable and free. Once you learn to accept, ride and enjoy the these cycles they balance themselves. - The natural warrior athlete knows to balance development of mind, body and emotions. You can focus on physical training for periods but never to the exclusion and detriment of developing emotional stability and mental clarity. Slow and sluggish days are used to pay more attention to mental and emotional weaknesses. ### **Balance: Psychophysical applications** - When your training is a psychophysical process, balance is even more profound. - You discover that physical imbalances are only symptoms of mental and emotional divergence from the natural pattern of living. - A natural **warrior athlete** is centered and in balance with the physical , mental and emotional all simultaneously. These are so interconnected that they affect each other. - The martial artist knows that if an opponent is mentally distracted or emotionally upset they will be much easier to defeat. - Physical balance and emotional upset are like fire and water as they do not mix. If you meditate on your upset you will lose balance easily. But if you meditate on your balance you will lose your upset. - When you play with both sides you can find your middle again and regain your balance. ### **Principle 4: Natural order.** - Natural order accounts for progressive development through time. In nature the seasons always occur in the proper sequence and a tree grows from a seedling. The process never goes backwards and it can’t be rushed. It is the natural order of things. - Only the human being is in a hurry caused when our minds race faster that life and ignore the natural order. - We know that progress is function of both time and intensity. You can spend less time and more intensity but this must be balanced . - Training too long and intense will lead to overtraining but too short and little intensity will lead to not achieving your goals. Instead you must keep these in the natural order. - Humour is a great sign that you have a balanced perspective that reflects your alignment with the natural order of lifes flow. After all not matter how grand your achievements in the scheme of the entire universe it will be tiny and hardly shock the cosmos. ### **Natural order: Psychophysical applications.** - You have probably previously thought “I should be doing better, i should be achieving faster”. This is an indicator that you not thinking in the natural order. Just life the word “try” the word “should” has little place in the mind of a natural warrior athlete. - “Should” implies a dissatisfaction with the current state of things. The ultimate contradiction and the trembling foundation of neurosis. - Your time is too valuable to spend stewing over things that are not. - A good measure of your alignment with the law of natural order is how much you enjoy training> Certainly you can have a good or bad period but in general if you push too hard you will lose the original sense of joy you had as a beginner. The natural warrior athlete is always like a beginner, full of inspiration. - Following the natural laws is essential for full enjoyment and natural growth in daily life. The consequence of breaking these laws is you are trapped in a prison of ignorance. - Balance between pleasure and pain and become sensitive to the natural order of things. Practice nonresistance with whatever fortune brings to experience personal success. - You will use all these principles to transcend illusionary self concepts, break down emotional blocks and develop whole body talent. ### The power of awareness #### **Hearing life's lessons.** - Life is a school and nature is a teacher. But without awareness you can’t hear the teacher. Awareness translates lifes lessons into wisdom. Awareness is the beginning of all learning. - Learning is a response of a demand to grow. This will naturally involve errors because you do things you couldn't do before. - Errors are not the problem only ignoring them or misunderstanding them is. In order to correct an error you must be fully aware of it. - True awareness is a sensitivity of the entire organism as a whole derived through sensory feedback , mental clarity and emotional intuition. - In life and training errors are always with us. You could even say that learning a skill is a process of refining errors to the point they no longer hinder a desired goal. - You should also be aware of strengths as well as this will give you confidence , inspiration and motivation but it is only awareness of weaknesses that will allow you to strengthen your foundation and consistently improve. ### **Awareness, disillusion, and success.** - Growing awareness is not a pleasant process. t is in fact a disillusioning process and requires the spirit of a warrior. - The more aware you become the more you will realise your tension. A sure sign of growing awareness is to “feel” as if you are getting worse. - Awareness is literally a process of disillusionment. As it cuts through delusion it will cause a momentary drop in our self esteem, a dent in our self image. No one really likes to look at their weaknesses and therefore tend to resist awareness. - It is important to understand the phenomenon as people can become discouraged when they become aware, imagining that they are “getting worse.” ### **Whole-body awareness** - Most warrior athletes have the courage to see and overcome physical errors but the way of the natural warrior athlete is to see and overcome errors in all three centers. The physical , mental and emotional. - When becoming aware and disillusioned of mental and emotional weaknesses you must be willing to lose face as you will momentarily see yourself in a less flattering light than you would normally wish. - Everyone has mental and emotional traits from childhood that are maladaptive, immature and downright silly. In most cases. But in most people these are hidden from their own awareness only to surface in times of upset, pressure or crisis. - If resist physical weaknesses a little we resist mental or emotional weaknesses a lot. Physical errors are much easier to see. whereas mental and emotional errors are more subtle and we identify more with our mind and emotions than we do with our bodies. - What we identify with we tend to defend. We defend our self image more than something we perceive as separate from us. People are much more comfortable talking about a physical problem rather than a mental or emotional problem . - If you are to become a natural warrior athlete aligned with the natural laws you must bring nonresistance to awareness. You must open your eyes, cut through illusion and achieve whole body and mind awareness. ### **The growth of awareness.** - Awareness itself will develop in accordance to the natural laws. Think of your own growth as a self sculpture. First you determine the shape you want to bring out of the stone. You then begin hacking away and these rough cuts are your general awareness. Later when you are ready for the detail work and polishing is the most subtle awareness. - The beginner is someone who has not refined his awareness of errors relative to a particular skill.We are therefore all beginners because no matter what their will always be new refinements for which we are yet to develop a subtle awareness. > *An old samurai warrior knew his time on earth was near an end, and wished to bequeath his sword to the brightest of his three sons. He designed a test.* > > *He had a friend hide just inside a barn, above the doorway, and gave him three bags of rice. He then invited each son inside, one at a time.* > > *The first son, after feeling the rice bag fall on his head, drew his sword and cut the bag in half before it hit the ground.* > > *The second son halved the bag before it hit his head.* > > *The third son, sensing something amiss, declined to enter the bard - and so earned his fathers sword.* ### **Teaching awareness** - At first you will have no awareness of what you have done wrong and will rely on outside feedback. As you then become more aware you will be able to say what was done incorrectly after the errors have been made. You will then be aware of the errors as they are happening. Finally once your awareness is integrated with body, mind and emotions you will correct errors before they are made and perform beautifully. - A habitual error must be felt, not merely acknowledged verbally, before anyone will generate the motivational impulse to change. - Teachers who understand the progressive growth of awareness are never impatient with their students. They realise that telling a student of his errors is addressing only his mind. These teachers know it takes longer for full awareness to pervade all three centers and give the emotional impulse and motivation to change. - Realizing the natural growth of awareness allows you to be your own gentle teacher and then you give yourself sufficient time in which to learn. ### **Feedback aids to awareness** - Sometimes you will know that you are making an error but not know what it is and in this situation an aid to awareness can be helpful. - The errors and successes of other students and warrior athletes can serve as lessons and as inspiration. - Nothing serves the growth of awareness so instantly as seeing a film or videotape of your own movements. Even a mirror can help. - A teacher can pinpoint the specific errors in order of priority. The teacher is an intelligent feedback aid who can analyze errors and effectively communicate ways to correct them. - If you do not have access to videotapes or teachers and want a shortcut to awareness then you can deliberately exaggerate your errors. This will make the errors very obvious and your awareness will grow instantly and you will also make your errors conscious and deliberate which is under your control instead of making them unconsciously. Deliberate error is no longer an error. ## **Preparation** #### **A key to success** - Preparation is the foundation for success but most warrior athletes however do not prepare for their journeys. But most athletes do not prepare and instead learn by Darwinian survival , pure trial and error - All things in nature have a gestation period they must go through with proper stages until they are formed and the natural warrior athlete makes use of this natural way by beginning with thorough preparation. - Complete preparation is the most difficult but most important part of the learning process. What would a cars paint job look like if you don’t sand and fix any dents in it first ? It would look like the usual athlete uneven and quick to show wear and tear. - Any obstructions you have encountered or may someday encounter are a direct result of insufficient or improper preparation. Think of an athlete who has developed strength but ignored suppleness and compensates for the lack of flexibility with with more strength. This will work for a while but eventually be a roadblock. - The part of an iceberg above the water can represent your visible skills while the larger part below the surface is your preparation. Like a house you have to spend time laying down quality foundations. It is not flashy but vitally important. - For any movement activity you must align with the proper laws of nature and first understand the qualities of suppleness , strength, speed, relaxation and the learning of proper fundamentals. - If you have been stuck on a plateau you can work through it and get on the path of the natural warrior athlete by going back for a time to do intense work on your talent foundation and fundamentals.Allow yourself to progress slowly at first but then your progress will accelerate passing your old level. ### **Step by step preparation.** - All problems including physical, mental and emotional problems can be solved with a step by step plan. Each broken down into a series of small steps, gradually and methodically till you achieve the final goal. - Focus your energy on the smaller steps and the process will be manageable and enjoyable and without noticing you will be moving closer to your goal. Without breaking things down to step by step you may just look at the large goal and procrastinate on where to start. ### **The illusion of difficulty.** - Difficulty has no objective meaning as it is only relative to your preparation. With proper preparation nothing is difficult. - A common experience for athletes is they will initially find learning easy but that it gets harder over time. This is not natural and is just the result of improper preparation and planning. - Athletes may fall into that trap if they don't appreciate the importance of thorough preparation, do not know what preparation consists of , may be in a hurry and seeking shortcuts, lacking confidence or have a teacher that has any of these tendencies. - Many teachers allow shortcuts in order to keep the students interested or because its more practical for them is they have competitive pressure or deadlines. - An intelligent and patient teacher is worth there weight in gold and one of the most important aspects of your training. ### **Choosing a teacher** - The teacher is your guide along the mountain path to your goals. You want a guide who knows the path very well, is aware of all his own weaknesses so he can show insight into yours, can show you obstacles, can point out interesting sideroads and beautiful scenery along the way and asses you and find the best path for you. - You do not want a teacher who will make you travel the exact same path they did without taking into account any of your unique qualities. - A movement teacher can have a profound impact on a students self concept and outlook on life. They are able to impart lessons on life through teaching movement. An average teacher just teaches skills only. - Note that a knowledgeable, skillful teacher can develop a winning team but at the same time smother the fundamental enjoyment and freedom of athletics. Think of Drill sergeants, you want to avoid them. - You want to pick a teacher with the same care you would pick a surgeon. You would not pick a surgeon just because they were a nice person, the operated close to your house, or charge a few dollars less. You would want to pick the best. - [Teaching is the art of communication](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/ "The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts").All the knowledge in the world means nothing if they can't effectively communicate it to their students. - While a great competition record or lots of degrees can be a great positive and inspiration to the students what matters more is what the students know. Not what the teacher can do but what the students can do is more important. - A great teacher can speak the language of intellect and can clearly communicate with words. They can speak the language of the body and show the physical movement of muscle and bone properly.They can also speak the language of emotions and can inspire and motivate and make you love the activity. - The master teacher does all three of these at the same time. Master teachers are out there and may be found in unexpected places. Remember that the not only teach a subject they convey principles of life through a subject. ### **The preparation of children: a note to loving parents.** - … and a time to every purpose under the heaven - Ecclesiastes 3:1 - In the modern time sensitive world everything tends to be in a rush or a hurry and this can lapse over to your children as well. - For young children and even infants you want to introduce them to movement play. It will stimulate them, exercise them and open their vital bodies to enjoy and discover the natural laws. - Skills are not the most important aspect for children to learn. - It is more important that they learn to feel good about their bodies, to feel success in these early stages, to learn the enjoyment of active movement and accomplishment and to develop core confidence in completing tasks. - Success for a child is measured by their smiles and happiness not by the parents goals or aspirations. - Children need to be allowed to be children and play with others on child equipment of size, softness and safety. As one early injury,fear or failure can have a lasting impact on your child. - Private lessons may not be the best way to teach your child e, especially if mum or dad is the teacher. And even a well intentioned , patient and skilled will be perceived by your childas larger and infinitely more capable than what they are which gives them no hope that they can emulate their success. - The best learning environment for children is within a small group of other children which will inevitably have some more and less skilled than your own. - Early play prepares a child for development later on, but the focus should still remain on play which feels good and not intense training. You also want to avoid an emphasis on competition too early and keep the value of this for later on in their development. - The main determining factor to what movement training and what age your child should start is their development of bones and joints, attention span and natural interest. - If your child is interested in anything then let them try it and see if they remain interested for at least three months. Do not force your child to do something only you are interested in as this will not work out in the long run. - Overinvolved parents who are pushy and want to help their child a little too much end up doing more harm than good. - You do not want weaken their core confidence. being unsure if they are living their own native interests or a parents fantasy.They are very sensitive, can see through social lies and will feel emotionally contradicted no matter what is said to assure them. - You are best to offer your child financial support, transportation to classes, mild interest and emotional support. - It is great to go watch them play every now and again but if you go over the top when they win they will think that you are equally disappointed in them when they lose. - A child's athletic training has enormous benefits but it must follow the natural principles to get them. Preparation is key. ### The Groundwork #### **[Developing talent. ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/ "Four Esoteric Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development")** - A common belief is that talent is inborn and therefore the foundation of potential is too often overlooked as people make do with what they have. - Physical traits cannot be changed but other key qualities can be developed. These develops can just be left to develop overtime but it is much better to do the proper preparation and develop a well rounded talent base rather than just emphasizing your strong points and allowing weak areas to develop. ## **Mental Talent** - You may remember times that you have been absent minded, not paying attention and missing out on things, your eyes and ears may be open but your attention was captured by thought. - Your attention can fundamentally go in two directions, outwards towards to the world of energy and inwards to the world of thought. - A psychotic would be an individual who gets lost in inner thought. Most people are able to bounce between the two at a healthy rate, but even a normal person can sometimes get caught in episodes of obsessive thought. - The natural warrior athlete has learned to focus his attention on the matter at hand and be in the present moment. Their thoughts may come and go but they do not get caught up by inward distractions of any kind. - Most people are subject to the pattern of random attention with thoughts floating back and forth between the inner stream of consciousness and the outer world. Problematic thinking takes the form of worry , fear and anger and will cause tension in the body. - In athletics and life the source of our discontent is this primitive habit of allowing our attention to be reactive to thoughts instead of being mindful. - You may try to convince yourself that it is external factors that cause lifes discomfort but on closer inspection you will always find that it is actually your mental resistance to the present moment. - Mental talent emerges as you gain facility in dissolving archaic habit patterns so that you no longer feel compelled to pay attention to the obstructions and limitations which are primitive creations of your own mind. - All rigid mental patterns will end up manifesting themselves as tension in your body. Whilst the usual reaction to this tension would be to work on the physical symptoms by stretching but you should really deal with the mental source of this stress. - An effective way to see your mental state more clearly is by comparing it to the state of mind of a baby. A baby will process tons of new information but because the have no complex beliefs , opinions or associations they will accept the information without judgment. - A baby will not ruminate, stress and philosophise over new information as their attention is entirely in the present moment. Because of this they manage to stay away from complex fears, plans, expectations and self criticism that can get caught up in an adults mind. - Consider a baby's mind state as that of a natural warrior athlete in its clarity, relaxation , sensitivity and openness to the environment. They are free of mental reaction or resistance and have a direct approach to life by being in the present moment. - The mental state is responsible for a babys amazing learning abilities and it is only when their mind becomes immersed in preconceptions and judgments that the natural learning is inhibited. ### **Illusory Self Concept.** - The self fulfilling prophecy describes how our results in life tend to follow our expectations. If you expect or believe in something which can be either a positive or negative trait you will set in motion many psychological processes that make your expectations come true. - Self concept is a fundamental self fulfilling prophecy. If you expect to do poorly you will be less interested, less motivated, have lower energy levels and therefore end up performing poorly and making you self concept accurate. - You have a different self concept for all different areas of life which will generally dictate how you behave and perform in these different areas. - But self concept is an illusion , manufactured in your own mind and is no more real than a ghost. Yet you have imposed it upon yourself a long time ago and you would have let it overshadow every athletic endeavors you have undertaken. - You need to see your self concept for the illusion it is and cut through and destroy it. - Once you gain insight into the illusory nature of your own self concept you can then transcend your self imposed limitations and give your training and techniques real momentum. - In order to gain insight into the illusion remember your own childhood when you were completely free of self concept and had the belief that you could learn anything within the grasp of human knowledge because you were pure potential. - It is obvious that having a low self concept would be undesirable but having an unrealistically high self concept causes its own unique set of problems. Setting your self concept to high can puts immense amounts of unnecessary pressure on yourself to perform. - The best self concept is none at all. Like a baby or childs mind you want to be free from exaggerations of praise or blame and simply take a direct , realistic, experimental and persevering approach to your endeavours. - If you are ever feeling pressure to do well you can be sure that an arbitrary self concept is imposing itself upon you. When this happens you can surrender to it, you can try to resist it or you can use it. - If you try to resist or ignore it you will find it will still have a subtle effect and influence on your performance. Instead you are best to use it and experience its psychic force and then cut through it by changing your act. - You want to learn to do what you thought you could not. To have control over your self concept so you can benefit and try new possibilities in your life. - Positive statements and affirmations can be used to have a positive effect on your mental state and create a beneficial mindset. - Continue to persist in this and all your illusory limitations will dissolve and you will transcend them .Remember that the law of accommodation is stronger than your illusory self concept ### The warrior athlete and **Fear of failure.** - Failure will always be part of the learning process. In order to learn you must see where you fail and take it into account. But most people learn to fear failure and avoid it at all costs. - Some people will even develop defense mechanisms against having to experience failure. A common form of this is to “not really try”. To deliberately be unmotivated so that your ego can protect itself if you don’t succeed by thinking “Had i really tried i would have done well”. By not believing you are giving your best effort the fear of failure is relieved but you will never reach your potential. - Fear of failure is a vicious cycle and like the self fulfilling prophecy it will often result in the occurrence of what you most feared. Fear produces tensions which obstructs blood flow, reflexes, breathing, muscles and eyesight which will all stifle your effective movement and increase your chances of failure. - To break the fear of failure cycle and rise above it you need to make peace with failure. Know that failure is not your enemy , that you can actually appreciate it for the lessons it can teach you and once you appreciate it you will find it stops distracting you. - The natural warrior athlete laughs at failure. Balancing success with failure is nature's way. The greats have all failed many times. - An exercise to learn this is to fail on purpose and have fun doing it . Make mistakes and do not stress over it but rather just enjoy the process. ### **Destructive self-criticism** - If babies had the same self criticism as adults they would never learn to walk. But rather babies are free of self criticism and treat failure the same as success and just continue to persevere. Self criticism is a habit pattern that you learn while growing up - There are only 3 causes of error in the world: negative or unconscious habit patterns, lack of information or experience or the fact that no one is perfect all the time. - There are only two kinds of criticism: constructive and destructive. - We use destructive self criticism on ourselves as a form of punishment with the inaccurate belief that if you punish yourself you will improve. - Rather than punish yourself if you make an error you must take responsibility for it and not criticise yourself. - Give yourself the same constructive advice that you would give your best friend. ### **One pointed attention** - You have tremendous power if you are in the present moment and place all your attention to the matter at hand. But unfortunately this can be a relatively rare occurrence. - This experience can be when you feel “in the zone” and are able to flow effortlessly. You cannot reach this state if your thoughts are diffused and you are mentally distracted or daydreaming. - Focus on being in the present moment and keeping your total attention on the task at hand. ### **Hypermotivation** - Hypermotivation is when you can manifest extended physical and mental capacity and comes from one pointed attention and being in the moment. - Placing your attention in the present frees you from all self concept, criticism, fear and inhibitions. Conversely any subtle distraction can have a negative effect on the body. - Athletic training is the best way to develop this one pointed attention as it does demand your full attention be placed in the present moment. - You may discover that your attention follows your eyes. What “Keep your eye on the ball” really means is “Keep your mind on the ball”. - Being in the present moment and free from internal distractions and problems will help you to master any game you choose including the game of life. - You want to make your mental training conscious and systematic otherwise your mental qualities will only be developed at random. - When you have no mind or no thought you can naturally harmonise with the body and with a clear mind you have your body at its peak efficiency and awareness. - Using your brain for internal thinking can still be useful for gaining a conceptual understanding of your sport and in analyzing the fundamentals of movement. But during the moments of action you should not be thinking but keep your mind in the present moment. ## Emotional Talent #### **Fueling the fires**. - Even if your body is ill , with muscles drained and lacking vital energy you can still have another source of energy that is burning strong. This is emotional energy. - Emotional energy we call motivation. Emotion is what moves us and when your emotions are open and free of obstructions then motivational energy will be natural and remain strong even when the body is drained. - An abundance of emotional energy can help an athlete push through seemingly insurmountable obstacles but a lack of emotional energy can see a physically gifted athlete routinely underperform. - Motivation is emotional talent and is the key to training as without it you would never even turn up to train. Motivation smothers fear and overcomes obstacles. - Becoming a natural whole body athlete will demand and require tremendous motivational energy. - Most people relate to motivation passively as if were something we have no control over and that may by chance be with us one day and gone the next. - But all the motivational energy you will ever need is within you and emotional talent is your capacity to stimulate and draw upon your natural fountain of energy. - Through mastering your emotions you have the capability to produce your own motivational energy. - Anger,fear and sorrow are not true emotions , they are actually obstructions to the natural flow of motivational energy. - Again when we were babies motivation was completely natural to us and constant. Everything was interesting and our body and mind were in their natural relationship with our mind free of thought and our body free of tension. This was the state of pure energy when we produced our own motivation that gave us the energy to move, explore and learn. - But as we grow older and become aware of rules, meanings, psychic turbulence, social turmoil and human frustration. As our minds build up these traumatic memories our bodies begin to store tension. This tension is a blockage of the natural flow of energy. - Only with a mind free of judgement and expectation can allow the free flow of emotional energies. - Emotional blocks are normal but they are not natural.Fear, sorrow and anger are reactive patterns of subconscious learned behaviour. - To become a natural warrior athlete you must gain insight into the minds influence on emotional tension so that you can be free of involuntary reactions which block the natural flow of emotional motivational energy. ### **Breaking the circuit of tension** - If you have to worry you must apply nonresistance and mindfulness so that your thoughts will not impose tension on your body. Let your river of thoughts float by and do not let them get stuck. Be mindful and practice mindfulness. - Whatever arises in the present moment just let it be interesting and do not judge it as either good or bad. This will awaken your true emotional energy which will allow your life to begin to flow. - If you don't use a muscle is atrophies and becomes weak. The same is true for reactive emotional habit patterns, if you stop using them you will eventually make them obsolete. - Mastery of athletics will require transcendence of all you unconscious reactions that may interfere with the smoothest and most harmonious functioning of the body and mind. - It is very important and useful to practice mindfulness and non dramatize situations that would otherwise have you tied up in knots. - Non Dramatisation is the immediate recognition of your psychophysical reality, accepting any physical or emotional tension you may feel and then consciously letting it go. - Negative thoughts do not have to mean negative feelings or tension.You need to become proficient in letting go of thoughts so that you can transcend the usual reflex of unconscious tension in the face of difficulty. - You do not have to bring a thought or its corresponding tension to life, you do not have to give it power. You may notice a fearful thought but you dont have to act afraid. You are able to short circuit what would be the regular habit pattern. - Until you have mastered all emotional obstructions you will still encounter situations that stimulate negative emotions but what you do in response to them is always under your control. - It is not easy but you do not need to surrender to the reactive pattern. It is not helpful to pretend you don't feel it but rather learn to translate your responses into positive energy and action. ‘This will develop true emotional energy in the form of relaxed motivation. ### **Breath and feeling** - Breath is the key to your emotional state because it both reflects and controls your level of tension. The natural warrior athlete breathes naturally from deep in the body and produces his own inspiration with balanced and relaxed inhalations and exhalations. - To gain mastery of your emotional state it is essential that you gain conscious control over your breathing. This is a central teaching of many ancient spiritual traditions. - Breath unifies the mind and body.They are intimately related through the feeling of breath. - Eventually you will feel your breath move your body and it will naturally become a part of your athletic movement. Control of the breath will give you command over your otherwise random emotional reactions. ## **Physical Talent** #### **Building the foundation** - There is no greater miracle of nature than your own body and with mental clarity and emotional energy you give your body the power to take action. - The mind and emotion can be difficult to observe and change but the body is more easily adaptable to change. So developing and changing your body can also help develop mental clarity and emotional energy. - Conscious physical training is using the visible to mold the invisible. - Consider your body's relationship with gravity when it is straight and naturally aligned. If the body is out of line it will need extra energy to keep it stable. - Misalignment of the body can be from incorrect movement patterns but also from emotional trauma which has caused stored tension. - You want to first work on your body posture so that you are naturally aligned and not using any excess energy to support your body against gravity. ### **Resistance to change** - The body can still be resistant to change as it settles into certain movement patterns that can only be changed with conscious effort. - A body that begins in balance tends to stay in balance and a body out of balance tends to stay out of balance unless acted upon by an outside force. The outside force you can generate are your motivations. - Your body was born in balance, but psychological and physical forces over the years would have generated imbalances in mind , emotion and body. - Any change requires an initiatory period of discomfort until the body adjusts to the new demand. There is no way of getting around it . - It may take three to four weeks to change a habit but 6 months to stabilize it and keep it. Be patient and persistent as it will take time for old patterns to be made obsolete. - When mind and motivation work in harmony what is created is real will. ### **Feeding the body** - Your body is fed through food primarily but also sunlight, air, peaceful environments and interactions with friends and family. - [How you eat is just as important as what you eat](https://www.sonnybrown.net/weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj-dr-reid-reale/ "Weighty Issues of Weight Loss and Weight Cutting for Combat Sports with Dr Reid Reale"). You want to eat with emotional calm. - It is best to stay away from process and preserved foods and stick to fresh produce. - Eat food full of nutritional value and free of man made additives. - Eating patterns should reflect your body's needs and not your minds cravings. - Fill your body with vitality and this will in turn give you power to develop your physical talent. - The natural warrior athlete is free from all tension and learns to recognise any tension and release it in the moment. Many people carry subtle tension for so long they forget what real relaxation is. - Genuine relaxation is not temporary but a continual enjoyment of muscular release and high energy at the same time. - The more you become familiar with deep relaxation the more you will notice tension in your body that you have carried unconsciously and you will be able to relax that tension. - Consummate athletes and artists in every field have ease of movement through efficient use of muscles with no wasted effort and energy. ### **Strength** - Muscular strength increases in proportion to the effort of training.But to use strength properly it must be in balance and with relaxation. Strength is the overall ability to control movement. - Effective strength is the ability to relax the proper muscle groups while consciously tensing others. This is something that babies do naturally. - Strength cannot be free to work unless balanced with relaxation. Too much muscle can mean too much tension so you can reach a point of diminishing returns with developing just muscle mass. - Balance the demand on your muscles between sheer power and the ability to be loose and relaxed. - Develop the capacity for relaxed power so your movements are effortless. ### **Suppleness** - A baby needs no stretching exercises because it carries no tension.But as you grew you activated habitual tensing of muscles in response to physical and psychological factors which have made your body less naturally suttle. - You need to notice your stored tension and use appropriate measures to dissolve it. - The naturally supple body is the reflection of a relaxed mind. - stretching should be relaxed and intelligent not enthusiastic. You do not want to inflict more pain on your body by stretching. Consider that when you are relaxed you become more supple without doing any stretching. - Simply relax into slightly more extended positions than you are used to and make sure that stretching always feels good. - Suppleness means a state of full articulation of all movable joints including wrists, shoulders neck, the entire spine pelvis , hips , thighs, hamstrings and ankles. - Suppleness should be given priority over strength since the more supple you are the less energy you need to expend in order to move the body. - Suppleness is the embodiment of non resistance. Suppleness, strength and relaxation are intimately related. - Suppleness developed through awareness of tension, conscious relaxation and proper stretching will improve your game and decrease injuries. - You will feel more awake and alive in daily life. ### **Sensitivity** - Sensitivity just means an enhancement of senses and can refer to sight, hearing, taste etc. But for the athlete the most important are the kinesthetic senses that enable effective movement. This includes balance, coordination, vertical reflex,timing and rhythm. - All these areas are interrelated so if you concentrate on one they will all develop. - Sensitivity enables you to learn more rapidly as your body picks up cues faster. You can feel errors easier and correct them consistently. - You can cut through old compensations as you won't be deeply locked in patterns of reaction. - Tension interferes with your sense of balance, timing, coordination and reflex. - The natural warrior athlete is capable of unleashing awesome power yet is so soft , smooth and sensitive that they pick up on subtle cues. ### **Stamina** - No athlete ever becomes an expert without investing time and energy therefore stamina is a vital aspect of physical talent. - It takes stamina to perform any action over an extended period of time and can be both mental and physical . - Stamina is a natural response to training and is best developed by training in your chosen sport. It is also a function of relaxation , strength and suppleness. - The natural warrior athlete who is free from tension requires less effort to build stamina. - You do not have to hurt yourself in order to feel good and should be kept in mind when developing stamina. Learn to develop it gradually ### **Athletic injuries and how to avoid them** - A single injury can be devastating to an athlete and undo a lot of good work. - Injury is always the result of fundamental weakness in a mental, emotional or physical area of talent. - Accidents aren't really accidents. You were not paying attention, were upset or were not prepared. - Therefore mental clarity, attention, emotional stability and physical preparation are the best insurance policies against injuries. - The natural warrior athlete acts on clear intuitions and therefore injuries are rare in the natural process of training ### **The three centres of whole body talent** - Natural training cannot be approached by attention to the physical body alone your must take notice of subtle realms that make up the foundation of our lives. - Absolute stability can only be achieved through combined focus of mind, emotions and physical practice. - The state of being centered with a quiet mind, open emotions and a relaxed / energized body will literally give you a better connection to the earth and your environment. - All forces you exert come from the earth, you are only the transmitter. - The natural warrior athlete knows that physical ability alone without development of mental clarity and emotional energy is a hollow accomplishment. ### On The Road #### **Moving with spirit** - Once you trust in the natural laws you will experience an internal guide that will show you the way to your aspirations. You just have to be patient and wise. - The natural way is ordinary, easeful and gradual with no need for heroic struggle but rather to just flow with the natural laws. - At the very least you are potential energy and you will need to apply the principles through perseverance, grit and hard work. ## **Techniques Of Training** ### **Smart, fast and fun** - All training techniques are just shadows of the natural laws. With natural alignment gained through conscious practice you can become the master of all techniques. - Techniques of training are fundamentals of learning every form of movement. ### **Warm-up** - Life will be filled with cycles and periods of transition. Life is a series of changes that can be smooth or chaotic, minute to minute , day to day and year to year. - You life will be enhanced as you recognises these periods of transition otherwise they will be scattered and unconscious. - Transitions can be in between major life events or transitioning from work to home while driving. You need to learn to enjoy these transitional periods and keep a flow running between them. - Create conscious transition rituals for the hours, days, months and years of your life. - Warming up in athletics is a transition ritual that is crucial. A proper warm up prepares you for the demands of your sport and is important for the body, mind and emotions. - The mental warm up consists setting goals for your training session and placing your attention on your training area and cultivating gratitude and respect for your practice. - Emotional warm up might begin with some deep calming breaths and remembering the initial excitement you felt for the sport and generate the emotion that gets you excited to train and imagine yourself succeeding at your goals. - Mental and emotional warm up can take place simultaneously at the speed to thought. You could complete this warm up in five deep breaths. - The physical warm up will have to take longer to get your body fully awake and relaxed. - Always make time to warm up and never rush. ### **[Learning how to learn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-how-to-learn-summary-notes/ "Learning How to Learn – Course Notes and Summary")** - Learning a skill requires creating a neurological pathway and motor response to the movement pattern of the skill and then stabilizing the pathway for consistency. - This applies to any movement pattern if it is simple or complex. - Your first attempt at a new skill is the most important because you have no previous pathway formed and are likely to somewhat follow the new pathway you create. - Every Time you take the same neural pathway you will stabilize and reinforce the motor response whether it is correct or not. - Every Time you practice a movement incorrectly you increase your ability to do it wrong. Therefore you want to repeat the correct movement pattern as much as possible and avoid repeating incorrect patterns at all costs. - A fundamental rule is : Never repeat the same error twice. Errors are of course a part of learning but in order to not make them a habit you must consciously make different errors each time and move them towards the correct pattern. - Do not habituate yourself to one incorrect movement pattern. This is very important as you do not want to get accustomed to incorrect movement as it will greatly slow your learning process. - Consciously make each attempt different so you explore the many possibilities for error on your way to the correct, straight path without forming bad habits. ### **Awareness and practice** - The times you practice only really count when you are paying attention to them. - Remember only perfect practice makes perfect. - You have to pay attention so you attempt the correct pattern and avoid the incorrect one. - Be fully aware in your mind and body during every attempt at practice. If you make an error never just repeat it again without thinking, take a moment to be aware of what went wrong and then consciously do something different. ### **The stages of practice** - To learn a skill you don't need to repeat it countless times but rather to repeat it just enough times with intense concentration and real interest. If this fails then stop practicing as you do not want incorrect patterns to develop. - Practice is like gambling in that you need to know when to quit. This way of learning is aligned with the natural order. If you try to speed it up it is too easy to pick up compensations for bad technique. - When you practice stop for a moment between each to attempts, breath deep and relax and feel fully aware. Feel your connection to the earth and its power. - Therefore learning should not just become a process of endless repetition but rather a strategy of training should be employed that contains insight and concentration. - If you learn to perform an incorrect pattern over a long period of time then when you attempt to correct it the correct way will feel strange. When you are wrong , what is right feels wrong. Making it much harder to fix an old habit than to form a new one correctly. - When correcting an old habit you may need to overcompensate as your steps towards correction will feel weird you are unlikely to go as far as required. Recognise the law of balance, and find the middle where you can effectively learn. - If you are making an error you can deliberately over compensate and make the same error but on the opposite side or direction. This will allow you to find the middle faster. - If you wish to learn successfully and rapidly you must be more interested in learning a movement than you are afraid of crashing. ### **Ideomotor action and mental practice** - Clear mental imagery , even without actual movement can develop correct muscular responses. - The ideomotor response proves that when you visualise a movement you will have a corresponding muscular impulse. - Mental practice is a very useful supplement to physical practice and can give you the natural edge to learn techniques seemingly effortlessly. - You can dream about moves and perform them in your head all day so that even if you try something for the first time it will feel as if you have done it before. - Mental practice is safe, you can do it anywhere, there is no fear of failure, it costs nothing and it means that you are automatically concentrating. You have to develop your capacity for visualization and imagery but once you do you will reap the rewards. - Mental practice can be used if you are ill or injured or at odd moments when you have not much else to do . It is far better than worrying about your problems. - It can be a great tool to troubleshoot techniques that you may be having problems with, take a break and mentally visualise the correct movement without any errors. - Mental practice is more efficient than physical practice but it is also more difficult. ### **Slow Motion Practice** - Slow motion practice gives you time to be aware of every part of a movement..You can sense the complex parts such as weight shift, coordination of the body and small muscle movements. - Most unconscious errors will occur in the middle of a movement sequence, therefore slowing the movement down can make unconscious movements painfully obvious. - In moving slowly you can become aware of tension and are able to let it go and then once you begin to move without tension you will be able to move faster than ever. - Slow motion practice is like studying slow motion replays except you are feeling it not just looking at it. - Slowing down practice expands your awareness and eliminates blind spots you encounter in rapid movement. Slow motion practice can be a form of moving meditation. - Also focus on a perfect beginning and ending of your technique with perfect follow through When you start and end in the proper position the middle will begin to flow. ### **Part-whole practice** - Any skill is made of component parts. A good way to learn or teach a skill is to break it down into its parts from beginning , middle and end and then you can put the whole thing together. - Analysis can be applied to specific drills and make learning an entire movement much easier. ### **The programming principle** - Programmed learning books are available to allow you to learn many subjects through programmed texts. - They follow the natural principles that we learn in small steps, we take an active part filling in the blanks, we get immediate reinforcement and feedback and we feel successful because of the small simple progressions. - Good programmed learning texts are designed around common sense principles. and make learning easy and fun. - Programmed progressions allow a constant feeling of success in which the process of learning becomes the goal. - You can also make up your own programmed progressions. ### **Imitation: The ultimate technique** - At the end of the day we return to the way children learn, by imitation and copying. - Copying is the most instinctive, simple and natural way to learn. You may have learned that it is bad to be a copycat but really it is fine to copy people as long as they have qualities worth copying. - Look for the good in everyone and that person can become a teacher. That way everyone you meet can become a teacher to you without knowing it. - To do this you have to push envy aside as you have to admire the qualities that someone else possesses. Envy will only isolate you. - Learn by observation, appreciation and imitation. To learn a skill, find someone who is skillful and watch them carefully. As you watch, feel yourself moving the same way then practice your ability to imitate. - Imitation is the master technique of learning as it bypasses intellectualization by creating learning in action. Find qualities you admire in others and imitate them until they become your own. - You do have to be sufficiently prepared to copy well, you could experience unconscious resistance to copying someone because of a belief that you have to be original, you can also copy the wrong people or the wrong qualities. If any of these are true you are not making the most of imitation. - Using awareness as a lever you can use all these principles and strategies to learn how to learn. ## **Competition** ### **Success in the moment of truth** - Three primary attitudes seem to exist towards competition, people admire the competitive ethic for making it on your own and taking credit for your own successes and failures. Some people who are inclined to peaceful coexistence avoid competition as dehumanizing and want to avoid an “us” vs “them” mentality. The third group cares little either way. - Positives of competition are that it is the ultimate test of reality, it demands full involvement and energy and can be a source of self reflection that you cannot find in other areas of society. - Strengths can emerge and be reinforced and weaknesses can be eliminated. It is one of the last ways we can face a moment of truth in society. - It can also be a form of movement meditation in which all your attention is forced to be focused on the present moment and in a flow state. - The negatives of competition is that there are always few winners and many losers and competition will reinforce this polarisation.This can breed negative opposition where you can be encouraged to hate your opponents. It can reinforce simplistic black and white thinking. - But competition does not always have to be a negative it can also be viewed as a cooperative mutual teaching session where your opponents are helping you to learn. - If your opponent is your teacher and you are there teacher then you are both doing each other a service by trying to win and once you view competition in this way you will always try to win but without hostility and negativity. - Winning and losing can also be a completely arbitrary experience and only able to judge who was better on the day. - The moment of truth in competition itself is a stimulus to excellence. But once it is over it has little meaning left. The natural warrior athlete will forget the games outcome the moment it is over but remembers its lessons. - A natural warrior athlete cannot afford to dwell on the past, the only lasting value of competition is the experience and the lessons learned from it that can be kept alive. - In the competitive arena there will always be people above or below you just make sure that you use competition to stimulate your own efforts and not become preoccupied with the other athletes. Keep to your natural pace and all that matters is if you have done your best. ### **Physical preparation for competition: overload and cutback** - In the moment of truth you are forced to focus all of your capacities of mind, emotion and body on the present moment. - The natural warrior athlete The natural warrior athlete can play as if their life depends on it yet also laugh at the outcome. With humour and intensity you can harness your fullest energies. - Under the pressure of competition you can see your body exceed its everyday capabilities and you must be prepared for that. - The way to prepare for this is to overload the demand before competition during the leadup and then cutback just before it arrives. - This will not only help you prepare your body but your mind will gain confidence. ### **Emotional preparation** - It is entirely normal to be anxious before a competition. Everyone will feel some level of anxiety you just need to learn to understand it and overcome it. - Remember that competition is a ceremony where you will be tested and have every right to be nervous. Your body will release adrenaline and your heart will beat faster. - You should not fight this, these symptoms will help you during competition so you have to learn how to use them. If you feel them coming before the time you need them you can control the flow of adrenaline by doing some basic movements. - All of these nervous responses are designed to make you forever faster and stronger. - If your mind is filled with negative emotion then you will experience these symptoms as fear but if you work on positive motivation you will experience the nerves as excitement and anticipation. - If you are relaxed you can learn to channel this extra energy. You will gain a perspective that the results you get depends upon preparation so you will gain more respect for your training. - An experienced athlete treats training and competition with the same respect and intensity. They train with the same mental focus and determination as if they were in competition and when they compete they are as relaxed as if they were training. ### **Psyching up and psyching out: the mental game** - Physical skill is only part of what is tested in competition , mental skill also plays a big role. A physical expert can be weakened and distracted is they have not mastered the mental game. - Ancient samurai warriors recognised that a razor sharp mind and emotional calm must precede physical skill. - It is a psychological duel where you test your calm as much as your reflexes. - It is perfectly fine to psych out your opponent as it is part of the psychological nature of sport. You can teach them about the inner game. - Sport is psychological in nature so if you are going to play you may as well play in the psychological realm. - But never get so involved in psychological strategy that you lose your own center. The best strategy is to have unshakeable confidence and calm and be a tower of strength. this in itself can distract opponents. ## **The Evolution Of Sport** ### **New games for new athletes** - Sport can reinforce ways of acting and have a carry over into daily life. An influence that is so central to our life should therefore be approached with sever respect. The benefits of sport can outweigh the negatives but you should look at ways to enhance these benefits. - You should ask if your sport contributes to your own physical and psychological well being ? And if it helps you develop a better capacity for daily life ? ### **Symmetrical training** - Many sports make primary use of one side of the body and can debilitate the symmetry of the body which is vital to have natural alignment with the earth gravity. - The rule of symmetry if applied to one sided sports would have a lot of health benefits and would be aligned with natural laws. - Some research shows that learning a skill on one side increases learning facility on the other and can eliminate old bad habits. ### **Rethinking sports** - You can evolve your thinking of sports if you begin to view your movements as energy awareness. That you are sculpting energy at you move. As you learn to to shape the direction of energy flow you begin to play on natures team with the air, water and earth as teammates. - In order to benefit daily life the world of sport must be a way of life. Certain key elements should be incorporated into total athletic training as they will be of great overall benefit. - Mental training encourages the attitude of blending and harmonising rather than collision. Enhances ability to see the flow of energy. Develops sensitivity and demands full attention. Contains pressures that must be transcended and creates growth. - Emotional training encourages cooperative interaction rather than self preoccupation. Is a laboratory to understand yourself and others. - Physical training balances development of the body, demands suppleness, develops cardiovascular fitness and stamina. Aids muscular symmetry and postural alignment. Enhances the bodies connection to the earth. - The natural warrior athlete is no longer anxious , struggling or eager for victory at all costs. ### At Journeys End ### **Achieving Unity** - All the teachers of mankind have acknowledged the same thing. That to truly grow we must reintegrate the wisdom of life experience with the open eyed innocence of childhood. - To Achieve unity with the universe you must first achieve unity within yourself by harmonizing body, mind and emotions. - Esoteric practices such as Sufism, Qabala, Taoism and Zen are major spiritual traditions that represent whole body teachings. - [Athletics is the yoga of the west](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathon-brookins-interview-life-ufc-mma-yoga-gurdjieff/ "Jonathon Brookins Interview on Life, Addiction, Martial Arts & Yoga") you just need the right perspective of using training as a means rather than an end. - To become a natural warrior athlete you have to become a natural human being. You must build a life of positive energy and discipline without extremes. Love in principle and action. - your training can literally change the quality of daily life as you abandon old habits and self preoccupation to become free. ## **Psycho-Fitness** ### **Rebirth of the warrior athlete** - It is still possible for an athlete to have expert skills in their sport but be undisciplined and unstable in mental and emotional affairs of daily life. - But the master is the product of psychophysical training. A whole body natural warrior athlete how has a well rounded capacity for life in any environment. - An expert may shine light in the arena but a masters light shines everywhere. - A master of one art can master any art because they have mastered themselves. The masters physical skill is a byproduct of internal development. ### **The movement master in daily life** - The movement master does everything naturally and has no desire to standout. They would always seem relaxed, calm alert and open to circumstance. - Every movement they make receives their undivided attention with a presence and certainty which radiates security. - The master creates a ceremony out of every moment. - The master has the warrior spirit, bathed in humour. ### **The lessons of sport** - We tend to play at sports the same way we play at life. Our training offers many lessons about life. - You must relax and blend with the little problems of daily life ,slow down take it easy and make sure to enjoy life. - HIdden within every experience is a lesson. in learning to move you are also moving to learn. ### **Create your own inner warrior athlete** - It is difficult for anyone to see their own imbalances clearly as we normally use ourselves as a measure of what is appropriate and therefore see our own actions as justifiable. - The natural warrior athlete needs a more comprehensive perspective to be able to grow. You must learn to observe yourself realistically in your functioning. You have to first notice and understand that where you do not have the perfect balance of qualities so that you may transform those areas. - A way to give yourself a comparable model that you create from your own natural intuition is to imagine the perfect athlete. This ideal then becomes your inner teacher and guide. A source of constant inspiration. - You need to sculpt with you mind what the ideal natural warrior athlete looks like, how they stand and move, how relaxed they are and what their mental traits and emotional calm is like. Give them a personality and create an ideal balance using any models you know. - Once you have created your inner warrior athlete you then have a teacher for life that you can take with you anywhere. As you develop your qualities in comparison to your ideal natural warrior athlete you will gradually move yourself closer to this ideal. #### **The art of living, with good form.** - Your life is something you create moment by moment. You are ultimately responsible for what you are, who you are and what you are doing. You can create something fine and useful with your life or you can throw it away. - You can make your life as you choose but to many people get fearful and surrender too soon to a second rate way of life. - Good physical form is the most efficient way of blending with the natural laws. It involves proper alignment with gravity,No unnecessary tension, unified musculature, Awareness, Coordinated response and timing. - Good mental form is the releasing of thoughts as they arise and directing your attention to your movements.Good emotional form is breathing consciously with feeling. - The natural warrior athlete strives to apply good form in both sport and within daily life. If you maintain whole body good form in daily life your discipline will transform you. ### **THE WARRIOR ATHLETE and MEDITATION** ### **The nature of spiritual training** - Spiritual training is whole body training. When your mind , body and emotions are in complete harmony the world will literally change for you becoming less complicated and more interesting. - Unified states frees your attention so that you can become aware of subtle mechanisms and intuitions you had rarely seen before. While immersed in the moment of truth an athlete will experience extraordinary effects. - These experiance point to the meditative demand of sport. Athletes must meditate on every move and give totaal attention to everything in the environment and silence any internal noise.In the moment of truth the athlete is like and indian yogi. ### **The warrior athlete and satori** - Satori is a japanese zen word that describes the natural harmony of mind , body and emotions. When the mind is completely in the present moment. - When you emotions a free of obstruction and manifest as pure motivational energy and when the body is fully relaxed and open to life.. - When all three centers are in harmony you will feel a click that is satori, it is a state of being in the moment, of pure flow, and every artist drops in and out of it on many occasions. - Satori will feel great, it is the natural state of natural warrior athletes and a state of dynamic meditation. Being completely in the present moment and free of problems and complications by immersing ourselves in the flow state. - Satori is the hidden goal of all our aspirations Its a preview of spiritual life. You were born a natural warrior athlete and you can be again. Approach your journey with all your mind and feeling and spirit. Approach training and daily life in the same way. - Dedicate your training towards the development of the spiritual experience. This will be the culmination of your journey. - As you align yourself with the rhythms of nature you will bathe in satori. You are the master. #### **Epilogue** - You have the university , the gymnasium and the temple all inside of you. You just need to reconnect all centers so they operate in harmony as one whole. - The last frontier is the inward journey and the total athlete can discover the laws of the universe within their own body. **Reference:** [The Warrior Athlete - Body, Mind & Spirit by Dan Millman](https://www.peacefulwarrior.com/ "https://www.peacefulwarrior.com/") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Fedor Emelianenko Clinch Throws & Takedown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/fedor-emelianenko-clinch-throws-breakdown/) **Published:** February 12, 2018 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Fedor Emelianenko clinch throws and takedowns](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/fedor3-1024x576.jpg "fedor3 › Sonny Brown")Fedor Emelianenko, the greatest heavyweight of all time. His run through the Pride Fighting Championships heavyweight division is legendary. Well known for his striking and dynamic ground-and-pound a less talked about area of his game is his takedowns. See he doesn't shoot for singles or double legs, he's a master of Sambo and a Judo black belt. This means all his takedowns have come from trips or throws in the clinch. ## Clinch Entries First, let's take a look at his entries into the clinch. His most common clinch entry is a right-hand lead and step (The Fitzsimmons Shift) . This is where he throws a lead right-hand punch while at the same time taking a step forward with his right leg which enables him to fall into a clinch position. Now the right-hand punch is thrown as a legitimate shot and not as a fake. If it lands and his opponent starts backpedalling. He will follow up with further strikes. The next entry used is hand trapping where Fedor will briefly block his opponent's hand. Against Zulu his lead right slaps down Zulus left allowing him to jump in with a leaping hook, he used the same combination against Tim Sylvia. If we concede that the clinch starts as soon as your opponent's hands and your own are touching then this offers a good entry into the clinch. Fedor would use his lead right to block down his opponents front and rear hand and will even use his lead left to block his opponents lead left. For a brief moment, his opponent is unable to retaliate with strikes on their covered hand and Fedor uses this moment to close the distance. Fedor could also initiate a clinch after catching a body kick. If he caught a kick he could either slide straight up the leg into an upper-body clinch and takedown or he would hold onto the leg to keep his opponent on one foot. Otherwise, he would return fire with a straight right that could knock his opponent down or even knock them out. ## Outside Trip Now that he has successfully entered the clinch one of his most common takedowns from there was the outside trip. This is where he steps his foot around behind his opponents with his knee resting on their thigh trapping their leg. He would then drive his weight over the top of that foot preventing those opponents from regaining their balance and forcing them to fall over. This move is ideally done while trapping your opponent's under hook by clamping down with your over hook and driving them to the same side, but Fedor was skilled enough to pull this move off from any over hook or under book combination. Ideally, you're using the smallest steps possible to get your foot around behind your opponents and Fedor will use his momentum from entering the clinch to help finish the takedown. ## Inside Trip The inside leg trip was another one of Fedors takedowns where if their hips and feet were close enough to him, he would step his foot in between their legs and then bring his heel on the back of their calf and sweep it out from underneath them. While he drives his upper body weight forward he makes sure to keep his head on the opposite side of the trapped foot enabling him to fall into their guard. ## Knee Block The knee block is where Fedor will reach down with primarily his left hand hooking behind his opponent's knee and then driving forward. Using his under hook to lift his opponent's upper body or a collar tie to push forward on their neck and shoulder. This is a good move when Fedors hips are away from his opponents and it's closer for his hand to reach down rather than to step around with the trip It's also a good move when it has a lot of forward momentum to help knock down his opponent ## Foot Sweep If the opponent starts leaning their weight forward over Fedors body he would look to execute an outside foot sweep. His right leg will step forward blocking his opponent's feet and he will then rotate his hips to the right and sag his body forward knocking his opponent over that blocked foot. If Fedors executing this move from an over-under position. He will look to rotate onto his overhooked side. If he rotates towards his underhook side he will look to perform a shoulder bump and take his opponent back to perform this his main goal is to get his shoulder underneath his opponent's armpit. While he drives his under hook up and across their back while at the same time stepping around and as he steps around he'll grab a tight waist allowing him to perform a trip, a sweep or throw from the back. ## Scoop Slam If Fedor secures double under hooks on his opponent his preferred takedown is the scoop slam. This is where he lifts them up into the air while rotating his elbows in a circular motion with one elbow driving up into their ribs and the other down into their hips. This rotates their body midair taking their feet out from underneath them and making them easy to slam into the mat This is the closest takedown that Fedor gets to a double leg and is a very explosive movement. ## Hip Toss If Fedor winds up with double over hooks, which is technically an inferior position he will look to go to a hip toss which is where he rotates his hips past the line of his opponents and throws them over his blocking leg or thigh and he will also sometimes bring one over hook up into a collar time to help assist with the throw. He will sometimes also go for the hip throw from an over-under position ## Off Balancing (Kuzushi) Now that we've gone through the techniques that Fedor used let's look at the underlying concept of off-balancing that allows all these throws to work and look almost effortless when executed you can see when an opponent has put themselves Off-balance with a failed shot that can easily be tipped over using only one arm. But Fedor was also able to tip over a standing opponent with one arm after colliding into them. This is because of Fedors expert understanding and application of balancing his opponents. In his training, he places great emphasis on spending time in the clinch and moving your partner around to get a feel for the change in weight distribution and balance. This off-balancing training is vital to understanding the timing needed to throw an opponent and can simply be pushing or pulling them until they fall over, but when you attempt to do this in a fight that will likely push or pull back so once you have them reacting to your movements then you can blend your energy with theirs so you exaggerate their motion until you force them to be off-balance using maximum efficiency. This is where the chaining together of throws becomes important as your first throw might attempt to get your opponent to place all their weight in one direction where you can then switch techniques to help take them further in the direction that they were bracing. You will notice that [Fedor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko") is constantly engaged in this dynamic rocking movement from side to side and that it will chain the momentum and shifting of his striking entries down attempts together this effectively allows Fedors off-balancing techniques to begin before he's even entered into the clinch with the constant rocking motion allowing him to score takedowns at the slightest off-balancing of his opponent. It will also allow him to work into devastating striking attacks like this hook off a failed hip toss now. ## Lessons from the Last Emperor What [lessons can we learn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/) from the last emperor well certainly that? Constant dynamic movement as a means to off-balance your opponent and keep you always scrambling and moving towards a takedown is a very important element of his game and also that he relied on the clinch and upper-body takedowns without the use of single or double leg shots as by comparison the risk and going for an upper-body clinch is a lot less than the risk of being sprawled on from a double leg shot. Lastly, making sure that you have drilled and practised your techniques so that you have a throw ready from any position or combination of over hooks and under hooks possible so that no matter how you end up clinching you always have a go-to plan of how to launch your opponent through the air and to the mat. Now that concludes this study on Fedors clinch work! ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Demian Maia BJJ takedown tactics in MMA Analysis](https://www.sonnybrown.net/demian-maias-bjj-takedown-tactics-mma-analysis/) **Published:** July 12, 2018 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Demian Maia BJJ takedown tactics in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/demian2-1024x576.jpg "demian2 › Sonny Brown")Demian Maia, he's a fourth-degree Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt, an ADCC champion and perhaps the greatest grappler in mixed martial arts. But as a practitioner of a ground-based fighting art a key part of his game is how he takes the fight to the ground and in this breakdown we will be examining his favourite takedown tactics. ## Setups & Takedown Entries Let's start with his setups, his most common entry into his shots is the jab fake where he faints his jab in order to draw a reaction out of his opponent by either blocking or a counter shot and when they do react he drops his level underneath their lead hand and straight onto a single leg. Another way is waiting for his opponent to jab or step in with their lead leg and as soon as they extend their leg [Demian Maia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demian_Maia "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demian_Maia") will time it and drop down into a single leg as a southpaw with his right leg forward the single-leg shot is a much quicker and easier option that is always there against Orthodox opponents. ## Running the Pipe Once Demian Maia gets in on the single-leg his preferred finish is running the pipe where he rotates his outside leg backwards which spins the opponent while at the same time dropping the head shoulder and chest pressure down on the opponent's thigh this shifts the opponent's centre of gravity to a point where they would need the use of their trapped leg to stand and maintain balance but instead they're forced to sit down. This finish works in open space but also against the fence where you must rotate your opponent away and off the fence to prevent them from using it to lean on and maintain balance in place of their trapped leg. ## Head on the Outside Single Legs While it is most common to do this with the head on the inside Demian Maia has also used this finish with the head on the outside and while this is not surprising in wrestling, in BJJ where submissions are involved this is often seen as too risky in a rookie mistake as it gives your neck to the opponent for a guillotine choke. While that risk certainly does exist here it is being used safely against multiple high-level competitors. ## Back Trip Takedown From the single leg, another finish Demian Maia executes is the back trip where his outside hand may reach and secure hip control on the far waste of his opponent as he looks to trip the far leg out from underneath them while circling his way down to the mat and over the top of the blocked leg this will result in Demian Maia taking the back or landing in top position and he will even look to trip the far leg without gaining control of the waist. Demian Maia will also look to trip the near leg proactively hooking it after his shot if he is unable to lift it or if his opponent can get it back to the mat and this all works in combination with his back taking strategy of constantly spiralling around his opponent looking to secure hooks. ## Spiralling to the Back In fact, in his first MMA fight, Demian Maia charges straight into the clinch and immediately circles to the back and executes a trip on his opponent. Although it does have the goal of securing his hooks once he gets their back and secures a body lock he has a variety of trips he will execute to bring his opponent to the mat most often he is blocking a leg and dragging his weight and the opponent backwards over the top of it but he will also continuously hack away at any leg of the opponents that is available to attack as a means of destabilizing them and breaking them down. ## Trips against the Fence Here against the fence, Demian Maia looks for a trip that allows him to begin rotating towards his opponents back now from a T - position he looks to trip again which rotates him all the way to the back where he completes the takedown. The trip against the fence is another of Demian Maia's favourite takedowns. Once there Demian Maia will look to secure under hooks and trip the opponent by reaping at the calf and rotating them away from the fence and dropping his weight at the same time this is made easier if the opponent's foot is placed away from the edge of the fence but Demian Maia will also stretch to the hook if necessary. One danger in executing trips in this fashion is that during the process of lifting your leg to trip you momentarily place yourself at a disadvantage as soon as you lift a leg to trip you now only have one point of balance while your opponent still has two and even three if they are leaning against the fence this creates a risk of your opponent reversing the takedown and landing in top position regardless of that risk Demian Maia was able to make this takedown work consistently may be in part due to his opponent's hesitation in wanting to go to the ground at all. He had success with this technique even from a front headlock position and was able to score the takedown in open space and I also have to mention the amazing lateral drop he scored on Chael Sonnen then immediately transitioned into a triangle choke for the win. ## Double Leg Takedowns Demian Maia will also switch to a double leg if necessary when he does his favourite means of finishing is to turn the corner which he does by pushing off from his outside leg to drive his force at an angle across his opponent's hips. Driven by his pursuit for the back Demian Maia will constantly spiral and rotate towards his opponent's back taking them to the ground with him. An on occasion he will also switch to a double leg against the fence favouring a bump and dump where he can secure his hands together behind the back of his opponents and then bump them off the fence also if you remember back to the start of the analysis where we covered running the pipe well if the first attempt of that is not successful it sets up a switch to a double leg by reaching for the far knee and driving across the opponent's hips and here is a very interesting leg entanglement that Demian Maia uses to sweep and secure a double leg takedown. ## Pulling Guard in MMA Another option that Demian Maia would use to secure a takedown is to pull guard his general sequence would be to take a shot and then if sprawled on you would look to scoot into a half guard position secure and under hook and then use it to sweep or stand back up and finish a takedown or else he would jump guard from an upper-body clinch with an over hook a pulling guard does come with obvious risks but Demian Maia made it work for him on multiple occasions at a high level. I do have another study on [pulling guard in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/a-study-of-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-athletes/) so check that out if that is an area that interests you. ## Future of Demian Maia BJJ Takedowns So where to from here well aside from a brief moment as K1 Maia, when he turned into a kickboxer, his submission game has been one of the sharpest in all of the UFC taking him to 12 submission victories and working his way into two title shots in two different weight categories. No matter what happens in his future he will always be known as one of the greatest grapplers in freestyle fighting but I would be remiss to conclude this breakdown without mentioning that Demian Maia is now 0 for 49 takedown attempts in his last 3 UFC bouts with all of his opponents able to completely shut out his takedown game and nullify any chance of a submission being accomplished. An important note is that a common thread with all three of these opponents was that each one was an all-[American folkstyle wrestler](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-mindset-abstract-thinking-wrestling/ "Brian Ebersole on Forging a Competition Mindset & Abstract Thinking While Wrestling") so that leaves me with a question if the submission techniques and effectiveness of a ground-based fighting art are completely negated if you cannot get the fight to the ground then how much emphasis should be placed on takedowns within that system. It is also worth noting that the rate of submission victories overall in the UFC has been falling however this is not a reflection of jiu-jitsu being less applicable but rather the level of jiu-jitsu has risen across the board as now every UFC competitor will be training with jiu-jitsu practitioners day in day out and if a competitor was to stop training jiu-jitsu or submissions and let a [skill disparity develop](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/) that will quickly find themselves submitted. With that being the case is it better to focus on MMA or going for takedowns control and ground striking? That concludes our study on Demian Maia's takedown game if you would like to see more on his guard pulling techniques then check out my dedicated study on [Pulling Guard in MMA.](https://youtu.be/qJYVvVMiQKY) ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Priit Mihkelson Interview On Why BJJ Must Be Taught as a Sport and Not an Art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/) **Published:** September 3, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Priit Mihkelson Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/priitmihkelson_art-1024x576.jpg "Priit Mihkelson Interview › Sonny Brown")I interview Priit Mihkelson of 3D Treening in Estonia. He is a BJJ Black Belt under SBG founder [Matt Thornton](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-thornton-art-of-aliveness-fundamentals/ "Matt Thornton Interview on The Art of Aliveness, Fundamentals & Functional Delivery Systems") and has done many seminars for the BJJ Globetrotter organization. In his seminars, he teaches fundamental positions and postures that are a rework of many default positions of Jiu-Jitsu. He has three instructionals out on BJJ fanatics, one called the grilled chicken guard, which is his guard retention system. The other two are the Turtle Position and the Panda position. We discuss his unique approach to [teaching jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) in a style he describes as "Functionalistic Minimalism" which looks at fundamental positions rather than the lock flows we are used to seeing demonstrated. ### Listen To Priit Mihkelson ### YouTube ### **Timestamps** \[03:11\] - How his way of teaching is different from the traditional approach? \[07:28\] - The Turtle position \[09:30\] - Still frames and micro positions \[12:37\] - Possible integration from NCAA collegiate folkstyle wrestling into Jiu-Jitsu \[13:37\] - Escaping the referee position \[14:22\] - IBJJF competitions are the perfect environment for turtle position to thrive \[19:45\] - Jiu-Jitsu vs. boxing training \[20:40\] - Fake your moves \[23:10\] - Teach Jiu-Jitsu as a sport to make it interesting \[32:10\] - Working with a [progressively resisting](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) opponent \[33:35\] - Understanding of Darks and Anaconda \[38:55\] - How to boost confidence when partnered against a black belt \[43:41\] - The idea of peer teaching in Jiu-Jitsu training \[44:59\] - Feedback stimulates [progressive resistance](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) \[47:00\] - The social aspect of giving feedback \[48:50\] - Stopping people from leaving Jiu-Jitsu or dropping out at black or blue belt \[51:08\] - Teach defense to white belts to stop them from being disinterested \[52:23\] - Mount is one of the worst positions in a fight \[53:05\] - What to do when you're a beginner in Jiu-Jitsu? \[55:25\] - Make beginners less capable so that they have a better chance of surviving \[59:24\] - Robert Whittaker's breakdown defense \[01:01:51\] - Colby Covington vs. Robbie Lawler fight \[01:04:09\] - Dealing with exposed back ### **Topics** #### **Traditional Approach VS Priit's Approach** Being flat on your back is a terrible idea in Jiu-Jitsu. But there seem to be six positions in jiu-jitsu in a bottom game that are so-called bottom positions. And only one of them is the position that is facing the opponent. All other positions are slightly showing shoulders showing more back showing less back. Priit gives an example by saying, "Let's say I'm facing you right now. Then I can do Running Man towards you. It's kind of putting my chest on the math more and going to the Turtle towards you so I can have Running Man away from you. That's the second one. It's still like a Hawking position, but I can tilt my shoulder away from you. So that's third. I can have Panda, and Turtle positions so that's five and only me facing towards you is one position. That's mostly everybody's teaching. We have defined those five positions that also exist in Jiu-Jitsu that I know very few people spend time on getting good at. The idea is that I start with everything that is in motion, but you can't teach it to the beginner, because it's so complex." #### **Learn Separate Moves, Then Combine Them** Priit says going very fast to Turtle Position from side control takes skill because that's a considerable motion. You can lose or win a fight by doing that. But for a beginner, you've to learn separate moves and then you can combine three in a row and then the fourth one is a trench. And then you make two moves, and two postures in a row, and then you rest. As a beginner, you do one move, rest, then another move, and rest. And as a more advanced guy, you always see those scrambles. They make three to five moves in a row, and then certain stability happens. #### **Environment Dictate Your Tactics** If you're more tired, you can often use more trenches to rest. If you're in a competition, the clock is there. You have to be faster. So move, don't stop. But if you're rolling around, then there's no time limit. #### **Wrestling Vs. Jiu-Jitsu** He says the attitude of wrestlers towards sports is more aggressive. They're more like fighters. And that's why they build more MMA fighters these days because their work ethic and everything else is way bigger. They can't rest in that system. They work, work, and work. He says so many aspects of wrestling actually transfer it. So, the panda position would be like, sit out. And in wrestling, they practice it a lot. They do referee positions a lot, but there are statistics of escaping the referee position to stand up to neutral to gain one point is over 50%. #### **IBJJF Competitions As A Perfect Environment For Turtle To Thrive** Priit says that IBJJF competitions could be a perfect environment for Turtle Position to thrive. It's because that's one way to avoid three points. So people should figure out very fast how to avoid the guard passes called the Turtle. People get an advantage to get back to guard, and when the benefit is back, it's easier to win an advantage back than the three points. But, weirdly, we don't see that used in Jiu-Jitsu. #### **Boxing vs. Jiu-Jitsu** He says in Jiu-Jitsu, we teach too many crazy combinations that we have never seen enough in a fight happening or a mid to high-level sport. It's because people run out of techniques very early, and the sweeps have to get crazier and crazier. He suggests keeping open guard and still doing the same move. #### **Work Yourself Around The Head** If you're a black belt and training with a white belt, then basically, the right thing to do would be the armbar. You want to do a far side armbar. You would start from the nice light position, like having the ankle trap, in the legs, pulling the arm, and you have to work your leg out from knee slides and around the head and do the armbar. #### **Teach Defense To White Belts To Stop Them From Being Disinterested** He supports his statement by saying that if you take boxing, from where would you start your punches? You wouldn't go like just jab and cross. Usually, you do defence, and then you move around and throw a punch. It's very logical in that sense. So in Jiu-Jitsu, there are two ways to start Jiu-Jitsu: One is that you can teach people how to dominate people in mount against people who don't know how to win and make mount escapes. And you'll definitely have better success of keeping them there because they don't know escapes. You have to teach them to escape to know something about defence. Another is not to show the mount position. Because the mount is the worst position in a fight, you can end up. Somebody mounts you, and you can get out. So, the mental win is better. They don't know that they can squeeze however they want, but you can actually escape the mount. ### Priit Mihkelson Resources #### **Priit Mihkelson** **Quotes** > "It's fun to try defence when you lose." > > - Priit Mihkelson > "If you cannot survive your beginning years, then Jiu-Jitsu will be super hard because you get submitted to left and right and you'll have no clue why." > > - Priit Mihkelson > "Teach defence to white belts to stop them from being disinterested." > > - Priit Mihkelson #### **Priit Mihkelson Links** - [Defensive BJJ](https://www.defensivebjj.com/) - [Priit Mihkelson YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOlEFbjW90lu5sSiMu2ZqIg) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Globetrotter Videos](https://www.bjjglobetrotters.com/category/videos/instructors/priit-mihkelson/) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Fanatics Instructionals](https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/all/fighter_priit-mihkelson) - [Priit Mihkelson Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/priit_mihkelson/ "Priit Mihkelson Instagram") ![Priit Mihkelson Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/priit_02.jpg "priit_02 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Rise of the Gracie Hunter - A Kazushi Sakuraba Documentary Script](https://www.sonnybrown.net/gracie-hunter-kazushi-sakuraba-documentary/) **Published:** June 3, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Excerpt:** The Script of the Kazushi Sakuraba Documentary - The Rise of the Gracie Hunter. It Explains His Catch Wrestling and Pro Wrestling Roots on His Rise Through MMA. **Content:** Table Of Contents 1. [Introduction To Kazushi Sakuraba](#introduction-to-kazushi-sakuraba) 2. [Striking of Sakuraba](#striking-of-sakuraba) 3. [Takedowns of Kazushi Sakuraba](#takedowns-of-kazushi-sakuraba) 4. [The Trouble with Guard Passing](#the-trouble-with-guard-passing) 5. [Sakurabas Leglocks](#sakurabas-leglocks) ## Introduction To Kazushi Sakuraba Kazushi Sakuraba, The IQ Wrestler. A Japanese catch as catch can and professional wrestler who became legendary for his bouts with much Larger fighters and his multiple victories over members of the Gracie Family that also earned him the nickname The Gracie Hunter. In this study, we are going to look at the career, techniques, impact and legacy of Sakuraba on the sport and entertainment side of the industry. As a professional wrestler, he made sure his entrances into the Pride ring were always a spectacle and entertaining, and it was another form of entertainment that would be the catalyst for Sakurabas Entrance into the [sport of mixed martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/). Born in Japan in 1969, As a youth, he was a fan of the Japanese Manga or graphic novel called Tiger Mask which tells the story of a professional wrestler who battles against a mysterious organisation of wrestling villains known as the Tigers Den. The Manga also had an anime television show featuring the same professional wrestling storyline that inspired Sakuraba to follow the career path of the protagonist. ![Kazushi Sakuraba as a child](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sakuraba_child.jpg "sakuraba_child › Sonny Brown")Sakuraba as a childSakuraba began amateur freestyle wrestling in high school that lead to him having success representing Chuo University. There he was coached by Olympic Gold Medalist & world champion Shozo Sasahara. But after turning down the opportunity to stay on and coach at the university, he decided to continue with his original intention. He started his professional wrestling career in the Union of Wrestling Forces International organisation. But how does a quirky athlete pursuing a career in professional Wrestling become the biggest adversary of a notorious no holds barred fighting family? This is where we have to explore the origins of professional Wrestling and how Sakuraba trained. ![Kazushi Sakuraba & Billy Robinson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Billy_Robinson_Sakuraba2.jpg "Billy_Robinson_Sakuraba2 › Sonny Brown")Sakuraba Billy Robinson Many of the moves that Sakuraba used to defeat his opponents can all be seen in vintage professional wrestling matches. This is because the roots of professional Wrestling can all be traced back to catch Wrestling or catch as catch can. Catch wrestling is a collection of several English wrestling styles, the most prominent of these being Lancashire catch-as-catch-can and dating back to around 1870 in England, a full decade before the establishment of Judos Kodokan Dojo. Catch wrestling was a legitimate combat sport that involved winning by pin or submission. Catch wrestling was even included in the second modern Olympic games in 1904. But eventually with some submission techniques considered too dangerous rulesets evolved that removed submissions and led to the creation of folkstyle Wrestling in America and Freestyle Wrestling in the Olympics. Professional Wrestling also evolved out of this style. So in the beginning, all-pro wrestlers had legitimate grappling skills, or as it was known the ability to "shoot", making the bouts seem more realistic. They may have even issued challenges for anyone in the crowd looking to test their might against the travelling show. Overtime professional wrestling drifted further away from the sporting aspect and towards the entertainment, with promoters finding it more profitable to have matches with outcomes within their control resulting with less of a requirement for wrestlers legitimate grappling credentials. But eventually, a return to more realistic matches was seen in Japan which leads to the creation of Japanese Shoot-Style or Strong Style wrestling. Spearheaded by Karl Gotch, known as the God of wrestling in Japan and who the German suplex is named after, and the legendary Antonio Inoki who famously had an early mixed rules match against Muhammed Ali. Both these men were pivotal in the creation of the Japanese MMA scene. Now Shoot Style was professional Wrestling performed in a hybrid style that intended to appear as legitimate freestyle fighting while still retaining a predetermined winner. And the UWFi that Kazushi Sakuraba made his debut in was one of a handful of these shoot-style promotions. The UWFi employed legendary catch wrestler Billy Robinson to train its wrestlers with the legitimate submission grappling skills of catch-as-catch-can to increase the level of submission grappling ability in their bouts. Billy Robinson learned his catch wrestling at the legendary Wigan Snakepit in England under Billy Riley who learned Lachashire catch as catch can from the coal miners of the area. After learning his skills as a young man, Billy Robinson then became an experienced professional wrestler who travelled all around the globe performing. Sakuraba, now with his catch wrestling training he received under the watchful eye of Billy Robinson, was able to use that submission grappling style and the influence of the Wigan Snakepit in all his future bouts. Now beginning with Antonio Inoki, Japan had a tradition of entering their pro wrestlers into freestyle fights to prove their strength. While the outcome often didn't go the way of the wrestler, it was from this tradition that Sakuraba entered the UFC in Japan as a late replacement to help promote the Kingdom Pro Wrestling league. Shockingly defeated the much larger Marcus Silveira, becoming the first person in the UFC to tap a BJJ Blackbelt and winning the UFC Ultimate Japan Heavyweight Tournament. From then on representing Pro Wrestling, Sakuraba would become one of the all-time greats of freestyle fighting with many of his victories coming from Catch as Catch can submissions. But before Sakuraba could use his catch wrestling, he would have to deal with the fights starting standing and work with his striking skills. ![Gracie Hunter - Kazushi Sakuraba Documentary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kazushi_sakuraba-1024x1024.jpg "Kazushi Sakuraba › Sonny Brown")## **Striking** of Sakuraba Now Sakuraba was never known for his striking prowess, a southpaw he was mainly characterised from his rushing flurries and swarms towards his opponent. His main goal would have always been to secure a takedown and work towards a submission, but he was not afraid to throw down with some of the scariest strikers in the sport including Mirko Cro Cop, Wanderlei Silva and Rampage Jackson. He was able to throw off his opponents and with an array of unique and deceptive tricks including a standing double axe handle or hammer fist. But along with the catch wrestling training, Sakuraba also received training in Muay Thai from Bovy Chowaikung. He was employed to train the wrestlers and also competed for the UWFI in a series of kickboxing matches in what was known as the UWF International Stand-up Fighting Division. As such he was able to strike and had a few sleight of hand techniques like faking a hook and throwing a straight and feints and deception, in general, played a significant role in his striking game. After two fights with Wanderlei Silva, he even went to Chute Box in Brazil to work with Rafael Cordero and also won two contests from using his punches. One against Ken Shamrock as he slapped down his lead hand to land a straight left and against the Judoka Yoon Dong-Sik after battering him in his debut. But perhaps a more substantial part of his striking arsenal was his array of kicks including massive head kicks and relentless low kicks whenever an opponent attempted to step in and even spinning back kicks. The consistent volley of leg kicks also setup other avenues for Sakurabas feints as he would then be able to feint his leg kicks to put an opponent onto one leg and then follow through with a straight punch that would catch fighters off guard. He even worked his leg kick feints into setting up takedowns. The repeated leg kicks and perhaps the heavily taped knees would also draw opponents into leg kicking back at Sakuraba. That would also lead to further takedowns for him as he was adept at catching an opponents kick out of mid-air and turning it into a wrestling exchange where he could put them onto the mat. ## **Takedowns** of Kazushi Sakuraba Once he was in a wrestling exchange, Sakuraba's wrestling experience allowed him to implement a wide variety of takedowns including body locks, ankle picks, double legs, trips and his most frequently used the single-leg takedown. Sakuraba's amateur wrestling career was also quite successful. At high school he placed as high as second in the nation and in his university career where he would also serve as team captain, he won the east japan tournament in his freshman year and in his senior year he finished in fourth place in the all japan tournament and held a notable win of future Olympic bronze medalist Takuya Ota. The art of Catch Wrestling is also very rich in takedowns along with the submissions as the standup wrestling portions would take up a large amount of the bouts. It invariably valued top position more where you can ride your opponent and use your weight and gravity on them. Sakuraba was also able to score many takedowns caused by changing levels on his opponents as they rushed or blitzed towards him in striking salvos. Once Sakuraba had put his opponent to the mat with his single leg unless he was able to land in side control, he often found himself at the end of their feet. It allowed them to guard which would be one of Sakuraba's most challenging yet most exciting parts of his game. ## The **Trouble with Guard Passing** ![Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sakuroyce.jpg "sakuroyce › Sonny Brown")Which the guard does exist in [Catch Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/underground-history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/ "The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon") where it is called the Body Scissors, due to the nature of pinning it is not as extensively developed or trained as other grappling styles. At the end of an open guard, Sakuraba was so troubled that he might even elect to drag his opponent around the mat rather than look to pass and also the phenom Vitor Belfort sat to guard as he knew it was a weak area of Sakurabas game. Sakuraba would still launch thrilling attacks like baseball slide kicks and round kicks over the top of the guard and when he did attempt to pass it often became some of the most memorable moments for fans. His most notorious method would be the cartwheel guard pass, where he would look to cartwheel over the side of the opponent's guard. Keeping a hand posted he would run at the opponent and launch into a spectacular cartwheel attempt that was visually impressive but never worked effectively as a successful pass. The other method that wowed the fans would be a high flying jump over the top of the guard. Sakuraba might try to land cleanly on the other side, or come down with a stomp on the opponent or ever throw a dramatic flying punch. Sakuraba did this so often that merely taking a few steps back for a run-up would get the crowd anticipating the high flying attack. He was also able to use the threat of the jumping guard pass to help brutalise the legs of his opponents with kicks. As he would fake a jump, the opponent would raise their feet, exposing their thighs for Sakuraba to fire off devastating low kicks. Kicking the opponent's legs in the open guard was an area that Sakuraba did become proficient at and was able to inflict a lot of harm as he showed when he brutalised Royler Gracie's legs in their outing. But kicks were not the only way Sakuraba would attack the legs as Leglocks were also a preferred technique of Sakuraba and Catch Wrestling. ## Sakurabas **Leglocks** ![Kazushi Sakuraba applying a leg lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sakuraba_leglock-1024x682.jpg "sakuraba_leglock › Sonny Brown")Sakuraba Leglocking Carlos NewtonKarl Gotch even once stated that "If a jiu-jitsu guy has you in his guard and you didn't break his leg with a leglock, you should quit Wrestling forever." and Sakuraba certainly embodied this ethos as he dived for toeholds, kneebars and foot locks at every opportunity. Catch wrestling always valued [leg locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/leg-locking-in-the-mma-meta-elegant-leg-entanglements-for-vale-tudo-with-robert-degle/ "Leg Locking in the MMA Meta & Elegant Leg Entanglements for Vale Tudo With Robert Degle") as a technique and even influenced other arts like Sambo to incorporate them into their style. As the name Catch as Catch can suggest, you take whatever your hold your opponent gives you so if an opponent plays guard then the feet, ankle and legs are always going to be the first avenue of attack. And Sakuraba had a commitment and belief in the power of leglocks that would see him hold onto some for an extraordinary amount of time as he would chain between toeholds, kneebars & straight ankle locks while absorbing a remarkable amount of punishment. So while on the ground Sakuraba was on the hunt for leglocks and this would even help open up the opponent's guard, allow Sakuraba to get back to his feet or it could also set up successful guard passing opportunities. Once [Sakuraba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazushi_Sakuraba "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazushi_Sakuraba") did get past the guard, he would start to look for another quick kill by diving onto armbars. It's here where we will pick up with part 2 as will finish by examining his use of Catch wrestling armbars—rolling to his belly and turtle, his infamous double wristlock and the legacy that Sakuraba has left on the sport and entertainment industry of Mixed Martial Arts. Rise of the Gracie Hunter - A Kazushi Sakuraba Documentary (Part 1) ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Dr Ian Dunican On How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/) **Published:** June 5, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Ian Dunican - Sleep In & Win!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/ian_dunican-1024x576.jpg "Ian Dunican - Sleep In & Win! › Sonny Brown")I talk to Dr. Ian Dunican- host of the Sleep4Performance Podcast, BJJ practitioner, Ultra-Marathon runner, and sleep researcher. Dr. Ian has worked with elite combat sports athletes at the Australian Institute of Sport on strategies to help optimise sleep, recovery, and performance. We discuss sleep cycles, optimising training load and dealing with nighttime jitters after a workout and sleep tracking gadgets like the Oura ring and Whoop device. Finally, why do martial artists try and cheat the sleep system and how instead they can **[Sleep In And Win](https://www.tedxperth.org/sleep-and-win "https://www.tedxperth.org/sleep-and-win")!** ## Listen To Ian Dunican ### YouTube ### **TIMESTAMPS** \[00:00\] - Introduction to Ian Dunican Interview \[01:47\] - Dr. Ian's backstory \[05:23\] - Study on Water Loading in Combat Sport Athletes \[06:53\] - What influenced him to do a PhD in sleep performance \[11:49\] - Is get up early, rise and grind the right strategy to follow \[13:34\] - Basic sleep cycles that combat athletes should know \[15:10\] - His podcast : Sleep4Performance Podcast \[19:30\] - How is the sleep cycle related to boxing, MMA, or Jiu-Jitsu? \[23:46\] - Why do athletes struggle to sleep at night after training? \[26:50\] - The ideal optimal strategy for professional athletes \[31:00\] - Biggest errors that people in combat sports are continuously making \[34:41\] - The best recovery modality for your body \[37:39\] - The best way to ensure that you are dropping your weight successfully \[39:33\] - Active recovery vs. sleep \[42:37\] - Do sleep tracking devices cause more harm than good? \[46:26\] - What should an average consumer do with the sleep graph or data? \[49:01\] - Netflix, YouTube, and Sleep Disorder \[54:00\] - Does night mode or computer glasses help? \[55:16\] - Stop Biohacking \[56:16\] - How does polyphasic sleep affect you? \[01:00:27\] - Why is there a drive for people to try polyphasic sleep? \[01:05:25\] - Benefits of sleep for learning \[01:06:35\] - Salvadore Dali and the Hypnagogic State \[01:09:58\] - Why do we dream? \[01:14:09\] - The sleep ritual ## **Topics** #### **Study on water loading for combat sports athletes** There is one such study done by [Reid Reale](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/ "Dr Reid Reale On Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA") and others. Reid had collected pilot data, and his research specifically looked at the benefits or the issues around water loading (the consumption of large fluid volumes for several days before restriction). Whether it be water loading or a low residue diet, he collected data from a Judo camp where the Judo athletes were from Japan, New Zealand, and Australia. The study concluded that [weight loss](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/) through a low residue diet, both with and without water loading, is an effective means of manipulating body mass in the context of sleep. #### **Is get up early rise and grind a suitable strategy to follow** Ian says that this is something that has permeated our culture. And he loves the tour to get up and train hard. But it's not a good strategy. He says, "Let's pare it back and talk about why [sleep is required and why it's important](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sleeping-while-cutting-weight-for-a-fight/). Just because other people do this, or we see it in a movie (Rocky Movie), or people talk about this doesn't mean it's right. And, there's a big difference between being fit and being healthy. And the third thing I'd say is, you might get away with it for a short period of time. But is it what you really want to do for a long term? So if you really want to be a long-term [martial artist](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lucid-dreaming-for-martial-artists/), whether it be a fight or even a recreational MMA, Jiu-Jitsu, Judo athlete, these are the things that you need to incorporate into your daily life to give you that longevity as well." #### **Basic sleep cycles that everyone should know**. Sleep is required for everybody. This is the way you are designed. You might have some variation of what we call chronotype. Some people might like to get up early and go to bed early, and then some people might want to go to bed late and get up late. This is called a chronotype and is typically referred to as a lark pretty early on the outfielder layer. You will change all of your life with those Chronotypes. And generally, most people know which chronotype suits them. We can never adapt to the nighttime people cause we are not designed to be awake and function at night. We can't just flip what's called our circadian rhythm. We are designed to be up and out when light is about. Now the circadian system is about a day, roughly about 24 hours. The circadian rhythm is controlled by a little group of cells called the FCN, which sits in the base of the hypothalamus in the brain. And what happens is we all have eyes and our head, light comes in through our eyes, the receptors there, the photoreceptors taking the light to send a signal to the FCN that it's light outside, and the FCN sends the feedback to the pineal gland. The pineal gland is also responsible for the release of Melatonin. So when we have light coming through our eyes, FCN sends a signal to the pineal gland not to release the Melatonin, and in the absence of light, then Melatonin is released. So what you have is this inverse opposite relationship when we're awake and there's light outside. Melatonin will not be released. And Cortisol may be artificially spiked. Now, due to stress, in the absence of light, Melatonin will be released. And generally, that starts getting secreted sort of after 10 pm for most individuals. And this is basically what people call the sleep hormone or sleep-promoting properties of Melatonin. So this is basically what happens when you go to sleep. You will go through several stages of sleep as well, i.e., stage one, stage two, stage three, and then come back up into REM. He further breaks this into 2 phases. - Non-REM sleep, which is the Non-Rapid Eye Movement with stages one, two, and three. - Rapid Eye Movement, or REM, is the second phase of sleep. Stage one, stage two, and stage three all have different characteristics that we see in Polysomnography. It's like wires on people's heads. In Polysomnography, we extract what's called sleep architecture (sleep stages). So it's pretty normal for people to fall asleep around stage one, stage two, and then Deep sleep, which is stage three. Stages One and Two are ***essential for physical repair and recovery.*** Stage Three is crucial fo***r the release of growth hormone.*** #### **Advice for athletes over 30 years of age** For those who are probably the older athletes,i.e., over 30, the most significant way you can naturally increase testosterone is to improve your stage three sleep or improve the quantity you're getting. One of the easiest ways to do that is actually to allow more time for sleep. #### **Struggle to sleep at night after training** He talks specifically about workout powders. Many of these things are laced with caffeine. When we look at pre-workout drinks laced with caffeine. Caffeine in your drink is another reason why people will be feeling quite jittery at night. He recommends people consume their caffeine an hour before they go to training. #### **Sleep is a better option than cryotherapy** He says people try cryotherapy, hot and cold baths, massage, pads that electrically stimulate your legs, taking herbal supplements, getting stem cells hanging upside down from inversion tables. They want to do everything, except the one thing. And that's 100% free and has always been shown in the scientific literature in sports to be the number one recovery modality. It's sleep. But nobody seems to want to adhere to this. He further says, "I'm not saying you should stay in your room for 12 hours every day, but at least allow an opportunity, for at least eight to nine hours to get that sleep. And if you can't sleep, just relax the time as well, it's good." #### **Short Sleep Impacts On Your Body** The shorter you sleep, the higher your BMI, the higher your BMI, the more metabolic conditions you have, such as type two diabetes. So if you increase your sleep, your wear comes down. And the more you increase your sleep, the more you have your way under control. So in a fight camp, another way to ensure that you're dropping your [weight successfully is to focus on your sleep](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sleeping-while-cutting-weight-for-a-fight/) as well. #### **Are sleep tracking devices beneficial**? Ian breaks scientifically validated methods of assessing sleep into two levels. **1 - POLYSOMNOGRAPHY** - Gold Standard of sleep assessment - Done in Laboratory - Costly and not always accessible **2 - ACTIGRAPHY DEVICES** - Look for validated ones - Oura Ring is good to use He also tells people not to waste their time on cycle tracking apps on your phone. "We have stand-up debates in scientific conferences in the world of sleep, about even the actigraphy trackers such as the aura ring and other devices, while even about their validity. And I can tell you what we all agree on, which is not very common within sleep science, is that all these apps are shit. We all agree on that. #### **Night mode and computer glasses** These things may help but don't expect that you can totally eliminate and improve your sleep. So just because you got a pair of glasses on doesn't mean that someone can't smack you in the face and you want to get stressed out. They might reduce the blue light, but it's not going to be the answer. #### **Polyphasic Or Short Sleep Impacts** You may feel good or bad practising Polyphasic sleep. But what you're doing here is not just short-term stuff. It's also a long-term thing because we know that short sleep or sleep disruption are associated with negative factors underlying cardiovascular disease, respiratory issues, the development of cancers, and so on. This has been shown by the World Health Organization as well. So you can cheat the system. And if you look at people who don't sleep more than five or six hours a night, generally, they have poor performance. ## Ian Dunican **Resources** ### Ian Dunican Quotes "There is a big difference between being fit and being healthy." "It's unrealistic to think that you can work a full time job, train two or three times a day, and be adequately prepared for a fight because all you're going to do is just completely burn yourself out." "We have to sit back and look at what's the true goal. And the goal here is to fight and be healthy and to be healthy for the fight." "The more you increase your sleep, the more you have your way under control." "The activities that we're doing on those devices will probably have a bigger impact than the devices themselves." ### Ian Dunican **Links** - [Sleep4Performance Podcast](https://sleep4performance.com/podcast/ "Sleep4Performance Podcast") - [Sleep4Performance Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sleep4perform/ "Sleep4Performance Facebook") - [Melius Consulting](https://meliusconsulting.com.au/ "Melius Consulting") ![Ian Dunican Interview - Sleep In And Win!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/ian_tsbb_promo.jpg "ian_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Guide on How to Be a Cutman for MMA Athletes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-how-to-be-a-cutman-mma/) **Published:** January 26, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![How To Be A Cutman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/how_to_be_cut_man-1024x576.jpg "how_to_be_cut_man › Sonny Brown")A Cutman at an MMA fight is responsible for treating a fighters lacerations or swelling in the one-minute break between rounds. Therefore, a cutman's duties include getting the fighters to perform at their highest level of ability by minimising the effects of cuts and lacerations that could hinder their performance. Also, if cuts become too severe, it may lead to a fight being called off by a referee or doctor so in some situations a cutman's work could make the difference between winning and losing a contest. All major MMA promotions will provide corners with their cutmen; a smaller show may provide one cutman per fight and rely on the chance of both fighters requiring a cutman from not occurring. However, at smaller regional shows a cutman may not be provided at all, and it will be expected that the [coach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching") or cornerman of a fighter will fill this role. Table Of Contents 1. [The Equipment of a Cutman](#the-equipment-of-a-cutman) - [Enswell](#enswell) - - [Coagulant](#coagulant) - - [Cotton Swabs](#cotton-swabs) - - [Petroleum Jelly](#petroleum-jelly) - - [Towels](#towels) - - [Other Cutman Tools](#other-cutman-tools) 2. [What to do In-Between Rounds](#what-to-do-in-between-rounds) - [Laceration Zones](#laceration-zones) - - [Working with Cuts](#working-with-cuts) - - [Treating Nosebleeds](#treating-nosebleeds) - - [Dealing with Swelling](#dealing-with-swelling) - - [Other Duties of a Cutman](#other-duties-of-a-cutman) 3. [Cutman: Sixty Seconds to Work](#cutman-sixty-seconds-to-work) - [References](#references) ![Cutman Jacob "Stitch" Duran Using Tools Of The Trade](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cutman_fighter.jpg "Cutman Jacob "Stitch" Duran Using Tools Of The Trade › Sonny Brown") Learning the skills required to be a cutman can be through an informal apprenticeship where you could help out a more experience cutman in their duties and learn on the job. In this case, you will have more success finding experienced cutmen in boxing clubs and venues rather than in the MMA circuit. Otherwise, a few formal training courses exist online and around the world that attempt to pass on the knowledge while providing an "Official Cutman" certification upon completion. The article below will give an overall guide as to what is required, but real insight will come through working corners and getting experience 60 seconds at a time. ## The Equipment of a Cutman The lists of equipment for a cutman will be as follows and may include some crossover with the equipment you would be expected to carry as a cornerman. Enswell, coagulant, vaseline, gauze, cotton swabs & towels. ### Enswell ![The Enswell Used by a Cutman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cutman_enswell-300x279.jpg "cutman_enswell › Sonny Brown") The Enswell (Sometimes called an End Swell or No Swell) is the most distinctive piece of equipment in a cutman's toolkit, and It is merely a flat piece of metal that is kept cold and used to apply pressure to cuts or swelling on a fighters face. Different styles and variations on design exist for enswells, but their essential use is all the same and can come down to personal preference as to what type you would use. As you want to keep the enswell cold for its use, it should be kept stored in your bucket of ice on fight night, and a thin layer of vaseline can be applied to the enswell to prevent the metal from being so cold that it would stick to a fighter's skin when used. In the event that you cannot find an enswell to use any small piece of metal can be used as a makeshift enswell providing that it doesn't have any sharp edges that could cause a cut. A simple bent spoon is always a good option that is available to use if necessary. ### Coagulant A coagulant is a medicine used to assist in clotting the blood to stop or slow the flow of bleeding from a cut. The most common and available coagulant used by cutmen is adrenaline 1:1000 or epinephrine. The epinephrine can be applied to cotton swabs and then pressed directly onto a cut to in-between rounds. It can come in bottles that are designed to be used for injections so it can be useful to transfer the liquid into an eyedropper bottle which is easier to apply to a cotton swab. Also, you may need to get the adrenaline from a doctor or nurse, so if it is unavailable, a hemostatic gauze is also another option to use. Hemostatic Gauze is a medicated gauze strip that contains a coagulant in it to promote blood clotting that usually is either zeolite or kaolin. The hemostatic gauze can be cut into smaller pieces that can be applied directly to a fighters cuts in between rounds. Other coagulants do exist, but adrenaline is the most commonly used by cutmen, and hemostatic dressings may be the most easily available over the counter option available from pharmacy or military surplus stores. ### Cotton Swabs A cotton swab is used as the application method for the coagulant and to apply pressure against a cut. Many cutmen will use a wristband that they store multiple cotton swabs in that they have prepared before a fight. Cotton swabs can also help in treating a bloody nose as they will be able to fit up a fighters nostril and help with stopping the bleeding. The cotton swabs used by famed cutman Jacob "Stitch" Duran are not your regular swabs used for cleaning out the ear. Instead, he will purchase cotton balls roll them out as much as possible and then cut and attach them to smaller cotton swabs to help bulk them out so they can contain more adrenaline and cover a larger area (Bartlett, 2008). ### Petroleum Jelly Petroleum jelly is more commonly known by the brand name vaseline and is an essential piece of kit for any corner to have. Vaseline will be applied to a fighters face before they enter the ring or cage as a preventative measure to avoid cuts by helping gloves slide off the fighters face rather than sticking and breaking the skin. When dealing with an existing cut, vaseline will be applied entirely over the wound as a filler to help "seal" it up and help prevent further bleeding. When using vaseline as a filler, it can be kept cold which will make it harder and more malleable, but this can also make it more difficult for a doctor to clean and stitch together after the fight. The vaseline can also be mixed with adrenaline 1:1000 to provide an additional application of the coagulant to the wound. ### Towels ![Towels used by a Cutman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cutman_towel.jpg "cutman_towel › Sonny Brown") One large white towel should be kept for wiping down a fighters shoulders and back and in the unfortunate situation where it may need to be thrown into the ring or cage to halt a contest. Multiple smaller face or hand towels should also be in the toolkit and kept damp on fight night for use in wiping fighters face clean of any blood or vaseline between rounds or at the end of the fight. The smaller wet towel will be easier to handle and manipulate along the curves of a fighter's face than the standard large towel which has a rough texture when kept dry. ### Other Cutman Tools A cutman may use various other pieces of equipment with a lot of crossover with standard corners supplies. Latex gloves are one piece of additional equipment. Wearing gloves is simply a hygiene issue as dealing with open cuts you want to keep your hands as clean as possible to prevent infection. A bucket will be required to help store all the other piece of the kit and taken to ringside. Fishing tackle toolboxes can also be useful to store all the smaller pieces of equipment between fights. Icepacks to help keep your enswell cold or apply to a fighter are also helpful to keep in your tool kit. Plastic zip lock bags make for cheap and useful ice packs as you can fill them with ice you get at the venue. Ziplock bags should be double wrapped to help prevent them from accidentally opening and spilling ice on the floor when used. ## What to do In-Between Rounds During the closing thirty seconds of a round, you should begin to assess what work will need to be done during the break. While a cut could still occur from the last punch in the last second of a round, you should always begin to form a general plan before the bell rings. After the bell rings, you will then need to assess the severity of cuts as soon as you are allowed into the ring or cage. A judgment will then need to be made about what will be worked on during the minute break with priority going to preventing the fight from being stopped and then too, which cut impairs the fighter the most (Matuszak, 2015). In general working out how you will work with other members of the fighters corner who will be wanting to provide technical instruction should be discussed backstage before the show starts. The following image is a guide to help assess the severity of the cuts according to their placement on the fighters face. The most common and severe cuts you will deal with are ones running horizontally along the eyebrow. These cuts are dangerous as they can bleed into the eye and obscure the fighter's vision and if they are deep enough they can damage important nerves (Gelber, 2016). ### Laceration Zones ![Laceration Zones for a Cut man](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cutman_lacerationzones_2.jpg "cutman_lacerationzones_2 › Sonny Brown") Cuts that have occurred within zones 1 and 2 are the most serious and may need you to consider ending the bout. Cuts within all other zones will require careful inspection of their depth to make a judgement call **SUMMARY OF LACERATION ZONES** 1. tarsal plate, lacrimal sac 2. vermilion border 3. supraorbital/supratrochlear nerves 4. nasal bridge 5. infraorbital nerve 6. nasolabial fold with facial artery 7. superficial temporal artery, facial nerve (at the zygomatic bone) 8. facial artery at masseter 9. mental nerve (Gelber, 2016). ### **Working with Cuts** The number one technique to use when dealing with cuts or swelling is to apply cold direct pressure to the affected area to compress the blood vessels and help contribute to the clotting that needs to occur. Doing too much else can end up making things worse, so unless you are confident in what you are doing or find yourself in a unique situation, it would be best to stick to the basics. Even without adrenaline to apply to the wound merely adhering to the basic principle of applying cold direct pressure will be the most important thing you can do. The first thing to do when dealing with a cut is to quickly clean the area with your small wet towel, which should be cold from being kept in the ice bucket. Then as soon as possible, applying pressure to the cuts with gauze or your cotton swabs soaked in adrenaline should be done if you have them. You could also place the enswell on top of the swab to apply pressure and cold at the same time. When the break is coming to an end, then you will remove the gauze or swab to apply vaseline to the cut. The vaseline should be used over and into the cut to act as a filler and should be seen to seal up the wound to the best of its ability. ### Treating Nosebleeds ![A Cutman treating a Nosebleed](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cutman_nosebleed.jpg "cutman_nosebleed › Sonny Brown") Nosebleeds will be another common injury you will deal with as a cutman. Again wiping the blood away from the nose with your small wet towel should be done straight away. Then immediately placing an adrenaline-soaked cotton swab up the bleeding nose of the fighter while applying pressure to hold it in place from the outside of the nose should be done. It would help if you were careful not to pressure both nostrils as you still want the fighter to be able to breathe but as you work on stopping the bleeding advise the fighter to breathe through their mouth, so they do not swallow blood. You should also caution a fighter not to blow their nose if you suspect that the nose is broken. ### Dealing with Swelling As with cuts, the most important technique you can do is to apply cold direct pressure to the wound using your enswell o if you didn't have one then even an ice pack will do. Some cutmen will advise to rub swelling out to try and lessen it, and I have seen this used to move swelling away from the eye, but this is a technique that Jacob "Stitch" Duran strongly advises against as it can make the swelling worse (Markarian, 2010). Cold direct pressure to any swelling will still be your most used technique in dealing with swelling. Vaseline should also be applied to any swelling before the break ends to help with reducing the chances of the skin tearing on a swollen area and turning into a cut. ### Other Duties of a Cutman Dealing with cuts between rounds is the primary duty of a cutman, but other skills may also be useful to master and cover the scope of a cutman. Wrapping hands would be the number one skill cutmen would also be expected to have, and I will cover this in another article. Along with wrapping hands, general skills in applying [sports tape to other parts of the athlete](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/) will also be useful and general first aid skills to help assist in fighters well being after the fight will be suitable to acquire. General people skills are also useful for a cutman to have as they will need to negotiate with corners to figure out how they will operate in between rounds. On top of that, giving the fighter confidence that they are working with is also helpful as it can help calm them in-between rounds and provide them with confidence backstage going into a fight. Part of the [trust you can instil in a fighter](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-uresk-interview-coaching-adversity-vulnerability/ "Erik Uresk Interview on Coaching Adversity & The Value of Vulnerability") can be done by building a reputation as being the best at your craft so that when they know you are working with them, they feel confident in your abilities. ## Cutman: Sixty Seconds to Work Being a cutman will always be a pressure-filled role as you have sixty seconds to work within where you will need to prioritise what you do and work effectively with the rest of the corner. It may be repeated twice or four times within a fight. With that in mind have a good handle on your equipment and what you will do with them ahead of time will make you better prepared when the time to work on a cut comes. If you spend time in a fight gym, you may want to keep your toolkit in your gym bag. If a fighter gets cut during practice or sparring, then it may allow you to work with a cut without the pressure of the 1-minute time limit and gain some experience. Otherwise except for the few cutmen courses that are available then first-hand experience working on fights will be your best teacher or if you are lucky you will be able to find someone willing to let you shadow them and learn the craft. Dealing with cuts is all about helping your fighter be the best they can be and also keeping them as safe as possible during their fight. The above article is a good rough guide, but if this is a topic that you are serious about mastering, then you should seek further instruction, particularly from medical professionals. (Although this didn't fit anywhere in the article I thought it was interesting to include at the end. While researching this article, I found a study they did on fighters in the fifties on sewing a single stitch to fighters cuts between rounds which I found fascinating:[ "Closure of Boxing Lacerations Between Rounds". ](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/560628)) #### **References** Bartlett, S. (2008). A look at the tools Stitch Duran uses to stop the bleeding. Retrieved 26 January 2020, from https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3686568 Duran, J. (2008). *Jacob "Stitch" Duran Presents DVD: Giving the Fighter One More Round* \[DVD\]. America: Jacob Duran. Fleischer, N. (1951). *How to Second and How to Manage a Boxer*. Nat Fleischer. Gelber, J. (2016). *The Ultimate Guide to Preventing and Treating MMA Injuries*. ECW Press. Markarian, R. (2010). “Stitch” Duran: This Cut Man Gets Priority Position. Retrieved 26 January 2020, from https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of-2010/11826-qstitchq-duran-this-cut-man-gets-priority-position Matuszak, S. (2015). UFC 189 From a Cutman's Perspective \| FIGHTLAND. Retrieved 26 January 2020, from http://fightland.vice.com/blog/ufc-189-from-a-cutmans-perspective MMA Junkie Staff. (2013). Alex Davis, Jacob 'Stitch' Duran discuss the science of the cutman. Retrieved 26 January 2020, from https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2013/07/alex-davis-jacob-stitch-duran-discuss-the-science-of-the-cutman Reddy, L. (2019). Adrenaline, Vaseline and composure - Kerry Kayes on the art of being a boxing cuts man. Retrieved 26 January 2020, from https://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/47026147 ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano With Andy From School Of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/) **Published:** January 3, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano - School Of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/school_of_grappling_kano-1024x576.webp "Mind Over Muscle › Sonny Brown")I talk to Andy From School Of Grappling about the book "**[Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder Of Judo](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Over-Muscle-Writings-Founder/dp/1568364970 "Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder Of Judo")**" By Jigoro Kano. We explore the philosophy of Judo as written and explained by Kano while also discussing his views on physical education and the principles of Judo including mutual benefit and maximum efficiency in energy use. We also discuss the concept of embodied grappling and the critical role rough and tumble play can have on a child's morality and social awareness development. ### Listen to mind over muscle #### Apple [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano-with-andy-from/id1476963733?i=1000546773726) ### Google [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zb25ueWJyb3duLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/YWNlOGMwOGUtYWMzNS00OGEyLWI0YTctNWJlZmJhNjZkZTMx) ### Spotify ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown") ### YouTube ### Timestamps \[00:20\] – Introduction to Episode 51 \[02:47\] – Background on Andy's Judo practice, career and what he does in the space \[06:11\] – An overview of the Jigoro Kano book, Mind Over Muscle \[09:37\] –The level of appreciation of judo as a martial art \[12:08\] –The Historical context of Judo and traditional Japanese jujitsu \[17:13\] – Kano’s study of jujitsu based on the technical and practical aspect \[21:11\] – Key principles of judo in physical and mental education \[22:04\] – Aspects and levels of Judo \[27:01\] – How systems theory fits in judo principle of mutual benefits \[31:08\] – The principles of Judo in physical education and development of mental capabilities \[38:56\] – Kano perspective on winning competitions versus getting people training consistently \[40:36\] – JIu-Jitsu and wrestling and why Judo is different from both \[42:49\] – The aspects of being either a judoka and a grappler or both \[45:21\] – Good physical education practice will deliver a decent amount of technique \[48:46\] – Viewing Judo in the lens of competition and personal goals in sports \[50:19\] – The idea of kata and randori in Judo practice \[52:58\] – The concepts of rough and tumble play or wrestling play in Judo \[58:43\] – Judo play wrestling techniques, teaching plan and embody skills in children \[1:05:15\] – Kano places emphasis on learning with a purpose and a meaning behind movements \[1:10:26\] – The idea of judo in building and an embodied practice \[1:19:01\] – Getting in touch with Andy ### Topics #### **An overview of the Jigoro Kano book, Mind Over Muscle.** The book is a collection of different writing of kano essays and talks that have been edited together. In 1882 Jigoro Kano founded Kodokan Judo at Eishoji Temple in the Ishikawa area of Tokyo. Kodokan judo was a product of Kano’s lifelong devotion to the jujutsu of the past, which he reorganised along educational lines while taking great care to maintain its classical traditions. Since then, Judo has spread to 187 countries and regions throughout the world. Kano firmly believed that compared to the sports of the time, the practice of jujitsu offered a superior method of mental and physical training. Kano also discerns that with the additions of philosophies suited to modern society, judo would be an excellent medium of instruction. He declared the goals of the practice of judo to be perfecting oneself physically, mentally, morally and using those strengths for the good of society. #### #### **The reason why Andy shifted from competition to teaching judo** Andy says, “I started judo at five years old, and I can’t remember a time in my life when I didn’t do judo. I have a black belt for ten years now. Judo was the first [grappling style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) that I started practising. I still practice it, but I focus more on teaching than competing nowadays. I had an extensive competitive career at the national level and international tournament, but at some point, the rules changed, and things with school and college came up. I had to make a decision whether to concentrate on judo or some other things in my life. So I started teaching judo first to children, and nowadays, I teach teenagers and adults alike. My interest shifted to philosophy on the less competitive side, and that was where my journey in the history and philosophy of judo started.” #### **The Historical context of judo and traditional Japanese jujitsu** The whole idea of judo as self-defence or sport is in a way correct and wrong because it’s not actually what judo is. To get a sense of what judo is, we should contrast it to the traditional Japanese jujitsu. In Kano’s book, there’s a whole section where Kano speaks about Jujitsu and how judo developed out of it to something completely different. The development of judo took place during the Meiji restoration, a period when Japan opened up to the world. The influence from global superpowers increased, and japan modernised so fast that there was a huge conflict between traditions, restoration, and globalisation. During that period, Kano was trying to preserve the traditional Jujitsu, and at the same time to reform it for a modern society and a global society. Kano was travelling a lot, speaking many languages, and he was open-minded in the sense that he wanted to earn exchange between nations. He saw that judo would be a valuable way to keep the Japanese martial arts alive and at the same time modernise and adapt them for the whole world. Judo was a reformation of many different previous styles of jujitsu that were being practised in Japan at the time. #### **Aspects and levels of judo** On page 94, Kano says there are three aspects of judo. The first one is training for defence. The second one is the cultivation of the mind and body. Kano emphasises that the idea of judo is not only physical education but it’s also mental education. In practising self-defence techniques, you not only aid in developing a very functional well-rounded body, but you also learn to make swift technical decisions. The third aspect is integrating the aspects of self-perfection, which are used to give back to society. This is the ultimate goal of judo. The idea of judo is that practising jujitsu self-defence is a means to develop a healthy body and mind, which can then play its role in the bigger picture of society. #### **The idea of kata and randori in judo practice** Kano’s book is not just about philosophies. There are some insights into technical training such as kata and randori. This is something that everybody knows, but there is a great misconception about it. Some people think that kata is a form of pre-planned movement, almost like a dance or choreography, and they think randori is playing rando. Kata means ***form,*** while randori means ***free practice.*** So, every time you try to practice a fixed form like creating a move that kata, but when you do something chaotic, with a lot of movement and without a fluent formless, then it’s randori. The whole spectrum between fixed and completely free practice is still randori. So, in a way, every game you play, if it’s free practice, it’s a form of random. #### **The concepts of rough and tumble play in judo** Rough and tumbles play or play wrestling is incredibly important for children’s brain and physical development. It’s also surprisingly shocking that parents and even institutions like schools and kindergartens prohibit it. To understand it, you’ve to relocate it from a scientific perspective. Children of any species learn by engaging in play fighting with an embodied first-person experience. Research reveals that children who have partaken in play wrestling will experience fewer behaviour disorders and emotional development problems, which Kano emphasises as one of the core elements of teaching judo. The purpose of judo in martial arts is to place a set of constraints within rough and tumble play to refine it into some form of developmental sport or practice. ### Mind over muscle Resources - [School of Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/ "School of Grappling Instagram") - [Embodied Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/embodiedgrappling/ "Embodied Grappling Instagram") - [Mind over muscle](https://kodansha.us/book/mind-over-muscle/ "Mind over muscle") - [School of Grappling on Intuition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-developing-intuition-instincts/ "School of Grappling on Intuition") - [School of Grappling on Systems Theory](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-systems-theory-chaos/ "School of Grappling on Systems Theory") - [Offense vs Defense Debate with Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/offense-vs-defense-grappling-jiu-jitsu-debate/ "Offense vs Defense Debate with Priit Mihkelson") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to rate, subscribe and share the podcast. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Kano Jigoro As Educator & Founder Of Judo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kano-jigoro-educator-founder-judo/) **Published:** November 7, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Kano Jigoro As Educator & Founder Of Judo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kano_jigoro_education_judo-1024x576.jpg "kano_jigoro_education_judo › Sonny Brown")**Kano Jigoro** lived his life as an excellent teacher and athlete and left a legacy as the founder of Judo. He would start university in 1877; wanting to learn a martial art, he looked for Jiu-Jitsu teachers who would take him on as a student. He figured that the best Jiu-Jitsu teachers would be those who were also doctors, in particular chiropractors, osteopaths or doctors who specialised in anatomy. He believed their knowledge of the human body would enable them to [teach their martial art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) more effectively. Eventually, he found that person in Keiko Fukuda, and he taught Kano martial arts next door to his doctor's practice. ## Kano Jigoro And His Early Martial Arts Training The training method was mainly concerned with learning how to break fall by being thrown multiple times by the higher ranks and understanding that being thrown would help you feel the technique. Interestingly, Fukada had a more discovery-based teaching style. He would only briefly describe the technique and then allow students to practice through play and repetition until they learned the correct movement through experience. Kano Had difficulty beating one of his training partners, and as a result, he began to try unorthodox techniques on him. These included techniques he learned from sumo wrestling and western wrestling (A Firemans Carry) until he could make them effective against his sparring partner. Combining the best of all systems to produce a better result would be a constant theme throughout Kano's life as he lived by and promoted the maxim of "Minimum Effort, Maximum Result". ## Kano As A School Teacher & Educator Kano also earned his living as a teacher at university in majored in political science and economics, and after graduating, he began work as a professor of economics. He would also work for the Japanese government in the ministry of education and was the director of primary education at one stage, which gave him a financial grant to study abroad in Europe. Kano used his academic position to develop his students' minds, bodies, and spirits. His ideas ran counter to the common thoughts of the time, which had a heavy emphasis on callisthenics. These callisthenics were performed in large military-like formations repetitively. Kano felt that these were boring to the students and lacked moral or intellectual development aspects. After Kano had developed his Judo system, he felt that it would be a much better replacement for the callisthenics of the time. It would allow an all-encompassing martial art to provide physical exercise and moral development and engage the students in their workouts. ## The Founding of Judo Kano continued to practice his martial arts and even demonstrated jiu-jitsu in front of the President of the United States of America. He would train under multiple teachers with differing Jiu-Jitsu styles and with different opinions of Kata and Randori. Kano would study the different style types, taking all the lessons onboard until he eventually established the Judo Kodokan. Kano established the Judo Kodokan after overtaking his teacher's skill level and becoming confident in his system. He founded the style that he named Judo which means "The Way". It combined multiple choking, pinning, and throwing techniques from the traditional forms he had previously studied under numerous teachers. ## The Development of Judo By taking all the practical techniques from the various systems he had studied, his new system of Judo provided a holistic way of teaching physical education, moral development and methods for self-defence and combat situations. The topic of his development of Judo and the [inclusion of the moral system](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/ "Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano With Andy From School Of Grappling") and the ways he used it to promote helping the community is a topic I discussed with School Of Grappling where we went over his book "[Mind Over Muscle](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/ "Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano With Andy From School Of Grappling")". His combination of experience as a teacher, education administrator, and advocate for Judo would eventually lead to Judo's introduction into the Japanese public schooling system. The Kodokan would have separate premises as a full-time Judo Dojo and would increasingly gain popularity, enrolling more students and progressively requiring moving to more significant buildings multiple times to accommodate the expanding student base requirement for grappling mat space. ## The Passing Of Kano Eventually, Kano would pass away while on a ship during a voyage for the International Olympic Committee from pneumonia. At the same time, some [suspicions did exist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan%C5%8D_Jigor%C5%8D#Death_and_legacy "suspicions did exist") about the exact circumstances of his death. Still, his work with establishing Judo, the Kodokan, his philosophy and his legacy continues to survive into the modern-day. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) **Published:** July 16, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum_header-1024x576.jpg "The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts › Sonny Brown")The spectrum of teaching styles for grappling & martial arts appears as a unified theory of teaching that aims to describe the structure of all possible teaching methods. It starts from the basis that education will be a chain of decision-making, with each teaching decision resulting from the previous one. # The Anatomy Of Any Teaching Style ![Anatomy Of Any Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum3-1024x1024.jpg "spectrum3 › Sonny Brown")It identifies that the decisions can come from either the teacher or learner and in three distinct phases of a learning experience: pre-impact, impact, and post-impact. Pre-impact will be the planning and intention behind what you want people to learn; the impact will be the decisions made during the lesson; post-impact will assess how the experience went and incorporate any feedback. The configuration of decisions between teacher and learner will determine where the teaching style will fall on the scale. The two extremes are if the teacher makes all the decisions, resulting in a military-style strict drilling lesson. The other end will be if the learner makes all the decisions, which results in a concept style of [self-teaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure-learning/ "Utility of Self-Directed Learning, Studying Tape and Optimising Lesson Structure With Lachlan Giles"). ## Reproduction & Production ![Reproduction Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum4-300x300.jpg "spectrum4 › Sonny Brown") ![Production Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum5-300x300.jpg "spectrum5 › Sonny Brown") The full spectrum illustrates 11-landmark teaching-learning approaches that appear divided into cognitive clusters. The first five styles are Command, Practice, Reciprocal, Self-check, and Inclusion. Together they form a group that focuses on reproduction and memory. The remaining six methods, Guided Discovery, Convergent Discovery, Divergent Discovery, Learner-designed Individual Program, Learner-initiated, and Self-teaching focus on producing new knowledge. ![The Framework Of Teaching Styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum2-1-1024x1024.jpg "spectrum2-1 › Sonny Brown")The reproduction styles will focus on reproducing and recalling already existing knowledge. In contrast, the discovery styles focus on the learners to produce new information they did not know previously, such as [concepts and principles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/). In future posts, I will outline the details of the 11 landmark styles and the space between these, which becomes a wide variety of teaching variations known as canopies. As you can see, grappling training as a choice between "Techniques or Concepts" comes at the problem in an oversimplified manner. In reality, the spectrum could illustrate a more nuanced and informed approach to learning grappling. ## Development Of The Spectrum Of Teaching Styles ![Teaching Is A Chain Of Decision Making](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum1-300x300.jpg "Teaching Is A Chain Of Decision Making › Sonny Brown")The spectrum of teaching styles was developed by Muska Mosston in 1966 and did not propose a one size fits all solution for what would be considered “good” teaching. Instead, it offers a range of styles that could be best suited for a lesson based on its intended objective. Each style has its purpose, and just because you attempt to use a style does not mean it will be better. Each method has its positives and negatives, so a style can still suffer from misuse in a given context. ## Reproduction Styles ![Reproduction Teaching Styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction2-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction2 › Sonny Brown")Teaching styles that are instructor centred and focus on direct instruction fall under the reproduction styles cluster. Five distinct styles exist: command, practice, reciprocal, self-check & inclusion. Each style slowly gives the students more input into the decisions in the lesson. Most commonly in [martial arts,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) the warm-ups will be run in a command style. The class gets [instructed on techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) and performs them all simultaneously or in rhythm. It becomes beneficial to run a warm-up with this style to be efficient with the time available to teach. Reproduction styles are stereotyped as being old, outdated, and lacking the option for creativity. But if you keep in mind that every method has its purpose based on the constraints and goals, it still has plenty of utility. Take the warm-up example; telling people to warm up on their own might work once they already know what they need to do and how to do it. But until they reach that point of proficiency, instructing everyone together will be a time saver. Also, they can be appreciated by the student who simply wants to turn up to class and be told what to do without thinking so much; after a day of work, they might want to do the reps and get fit. Primarily, the reproduction styles rely on taking knowledge discovered previously and letting the students memorise and repeat it. While looking at the ideas of BJJ concepts (especially my podcasts with [School Of Grappling](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/)), I realised that although we can create a list of concepts and principles, these are often still taught in a reproduction style. In a manner of "Here are some concepts I prepared earlier". In further posts, I will go through each reproduction style to explain how they operate before crossing the "discovery threshold" into the production cluster of teaching styles. ## Production Styles ![Production Teaching Styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/production2-1024x1024.jpg "production2 › Sonny Brown")Student-centred teaching styles focus on indirect instruction and fall under the production styles cluster. Six distinct styles exist: guided discovery, convergent discovery, divergent discovery, learner-designed individual program, learner-initiated and self-teaching. The styles encourage students to develop new knowledge and information about problems that the teacher comes up with and eventually to issues they come up with on their own. These are found on the spectrum of teaching styles once you pass the "discovery threshold". As these styles are best suited to teaching concepts and principles, it would make sense for these to work for concepts in grappling, but I have not seen too many examples of this being the case. The idea is that whatever solution to a problem the instructor has in mind, you give the student enough guidance to come up with the answer on their own instead of being told. # The Five Replication Teaching Styles ![Replication of the Known](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction1-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction1 › Sonny Brown")With the reproduction cluster of teaching styles, the instructor aims to get students to replicate knowledge through repetition and memory. Remember that it does not need to be a one-size-fits-all approach; the different styles have different benefits based on your goals, and multiple styles could be used in a single lesson. ![Command Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction2-1-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction2-1 › Sonny Brown")#### **A - Command Style** The instructor makes all the decisions for the class, including the timing of when the students will perform. It is useful when safety considerations have to be taken into account and It can also ensure the maximum amount of time will be spent on a task as the instructor sets the pace. Often seen in warm-ups, think of military-style drilling. ![Practice Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction3-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction3 › Sonny Brown")#### **B - Practice Style** The instructor will show the technique, and then the students will be given time to practice and drill at their own pace. The instructor moves around the class giving individual feedback. The practice style would be the most common teaching style for grappling that I have seen. ![Reciprocal Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction4-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction4 › Sonny Brown")#### **C - Reciprocal Style** The instructor designs drills for pairs or small groups and provides criteria for feedback on the technique. One student performs the technique and the partners give feedback from the criteria. The style increases socialisation among students, placing trust in them and giving them an active role in the learning process. ![Self Check Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction5-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction5 › Sonny Brown")#### **D - Self-Check Style** Similar to the reciprocal style but the students assess themselves against set criteria. The instructor can circulate through the class and work with students to develop their own goals, focusing on the result of a technique and not the technique itself. Students monitor themselves and self-correct their learning. ![Inclusion Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/reproduction6-1024x1024.jpg "reproduction6 › Sonny Brown")#### **E - Inclusion Style** The instructor designs various drills or tasks with multiple levels of difficulty. The students then decide which difficulty level they want to attempt based on their ability level. The style caters to individual needs as students can increase the difficulty when they feel ready or decrease it if they find it too hard. # The Six Discovery Teaching Styles ![Discovery Of The Unknown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery1-1024x1024.jpg "discovery1 › Sonny Brown")With the production cluster of teaching styles, the instructor aims to get students to produce knowledge or techniques that are previously unknown to them. The discovery process remains an ideal way to teach concepts, principles, theories, strategies & game tactics. Students will need a base level of skill to use the styles effectively. But once a student knows the fundamentals, it would be possible that they could develop more rapidly and find the process more enjoyable using the discovery styles. The following summarises the six landmark styles from the spectrum of teaching styles. ![Guided Discovery Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery2-1024x1024.jpg "discovery2 › Sonny Brown")#### **F - Guided Discovery** The instructor designs a series of questions and problems that lead the student towards discovering a specific predetermined [concept or principle](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/). Like climbing steps of a ladder, one question leads to the other in a logically sequenced manner. ![Convergant Discovery Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery3-1024x1024.jpg "discovery3 › Sonny Brown")#### **G - Convergent Discovery** The instructor chooses a situation unfamiliar to the student, so they must discover the single predetermined response using their logic and reasoning ability. ![Divergent Discovery Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery4-1024x1024.jpg "discovery4 › Sonny Brown")#### **H - Divergent Discovery** The instructor selects an unfamiliar situation, and the student will produce multiple solutions to the problem. The instructor does not look for any single solution but encourages the production of numerous explanations. ![Learner Designed Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery5-1024x1024.jpg "discovery5 › Sonny Brown")#### **I - Learner Designed** The instructor selects an area for the student to investigate. The student then designs their plan to examine and find solutions to the problem and will grade their performance. ![Learner Initiated Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery6-1024x1024.jpg "discovery6 › Sonny Brown")#### **J - Learner Initiated** The students will [design their learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) experience and decide on the problems and solutions they will investigate. The instructor's role becomes a facilitator, asking the students questions about their decisions. ![Self Teaching Teaching Style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/discovery7-1024x1024.jpg "discovery7 › Sonny Brown")#### **K - Self Teaching** When the student becomes the teacher, they are now in charge of all their learning decisions which becomes a continual process. Consider this the 36th Chamber of Shaolin. ## The spectrum of Teaching Styles for BJJ, Grappling & MMA Most of the way that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu still seems taught seems firmly on the reproduction side of the spectrum. It focuses on replication and memory, which can be great for teaching routines, previous [models of techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) and rules. I think this may have its place for beginners as they need to become accustomed to the fundamentals, which can be a time-efficient way for them to learn them. The production styles are better suited to teaching principles and concepts as it leads the learner to make a discovery, which may be more suitable for higher belts past a certain rank. ![The Right Tool for The Right Job](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum2-1024x1024.jpg "spectrum2 › Sonny Brown")But what may be surprising would be that the majority of ways I have seen teaching “CONCEPTUAL BJJ” still fall firmly on the reproduction side of the teaching spectrum. While they may show a concept, their methods appear based on the dominant replication styles. According to the teaching spectrum, it would not be the best way to reach the intended outcome of teaching a concept. ### ****"**Each style** has the capacity to uniquely contribute to human development and content acquisition.****" ![Teacher are the Architects of Learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/spectrum22-1024x1024.jpg "spectrum22 › Sonny Brown")### "No teaching style is inherently good or bad. Each style IS. Each style accomplishes the objectives intrinsic to its specific Teacher - Learner decision configuration." **Reference:** [Mosston, M., & Ashworth, S. (2008) Teaching physical education: First online edition. Spectrum Institute for Teaching and Learning.](https://spectrumofteachingstyles.org/ "Mosston, M., & Ashworth, S. (2008) Teaching physical education: First online edition. Spectrum Institute for Teaching and Learning.") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning --- ### [Luke Martin On New Wave Coaching Of No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-new-wave-no-gi-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** May 30, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Luke Martin](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_02_header_nogi-1024x576.jpg "Luke Martin - New Wave No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu › Sonny Brown")I talk to jiu-jitsu black belt Luke Martin in this episode of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. Luke provides insights into transitioning his academy's (Sydney West Martial Arts) focus to no-gi training only. He discusses the major influence John Danaher has had on his coaching philosophy and leglock techniques. Luke also explains how online private lessons years ago helped progress his own skills and his students' abilities. He talks about his upcoming training trips to the US and how he gathers as much knowledge as possible to bring back to his students in Australia. Tune in to hear Luke's passion for creating high-level grapplers at his academy. ## Listen To Luke Martin ### Apple ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple-300x73.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown") ### Google ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown") ### Spotify ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown") ### YouTube ## Topics Discussed ### Transitioning to No-Gi Training Luke discusses his decision to switch his adult classes at his academy to no-gi only. He feels no-gi training is better preparation for submission grappling competitions like ADCC. He believes the gi teaches techniques and grips that don't translate well to no-gi. Luke aims to create the best [no-gi grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-brennan-next-generation-mma-nogi-jiujitsu/) possible at his academy. ### The Influence of John Danaher Luke talks about how training under John Danaher showed him the importance of focusing on no-gi and spending time on takedowns/wrestling. Luke believes John Danaher's [teaching methodology and deep understanding of grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) positions has made him the number one jiu-jitsu coach in the world. ### Online Coaching with Jason Rau Luke discusses how he started doing online private lessons with Jason Rau years ago, before it was common. This allowed Luke to continually learn the latest techniques and strategies at a high level. Luke credits this with much of his and his students' progression over the years. ### Preparing for Upcoming US Training Trips Luke explains how he prepares for his upcoming training trips to the US. He aims to hyper focus on training and retain as much information as possible. Luke has specific techniques and questions planned to discuss with coaches like John Danaher. His priority is gathering knowledge to help his students, not socializing. ## Luke Martin Resources ### Luke Martin Quotes > I think if you're making progression in any part of your life, like you should, you should look back at five years ago you and think you're an idiot. I think that's probably a good indicator you're progressing at some degree of forward rate. > > - Luke Martin > This is kind of culminating towards a longtime goal, which is to have trials winners, and then obviously, once we achieve that, then have the trials winners move forward to the World Championships and become medalists and take it out world champions. > > - Luke Martin ### Luke Martin Links - [Sydney West Martial Arts](http://www.swma.com.au/ "http://www.swma.com.au/") - [Luke Martins Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/aussieleglockluke/ "Luke Martins Instagram
") - [SWMA Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/ "https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/") - [Luke Martins Previous Episode](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/ "Luke Martin on Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Talent Code Summary & Notes By Daniel Coyle](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-talent-code-summary-notes-by-daniel-coyle/) **Published:** July 22, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Talent Code Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talent_code_summary-1024x576.jpg "talent_code_summary › Sonny Brown")The Talent Code Summary, a book written by Daniel Coyle says that developing talent requires three elements: deep practise, ignition, and master coaching. The central theme of the book would be the concept that talent comes down to practice and not innate traits, genetics or environment. The summary of the talent code will be split into sections on talent defined, talent & myelin, deep practice, ignition, master coaching and a conclusion. Table Of Contents 1. [Talent Defined](#talent-defined) 2. [Talent & Myelin](#talent-myelin) 3. [Deep Practice](#deep-practice) 4. [Ignition](#ignition) 5. [Master Coaching](#master-coaching) 6. [Conclusion of The Talent Code Summary](#conclusion-of-the-talent-code-summary) ![The Talent Code - Talent Defined](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode2-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Talent Defined › Sonny Brown")## Talent Defined The book defines talent as the possession of repeatable skills that don't depend on physical size. It suggests that developing talent requires three elements: deep practice, ignition, and master coaching. The development of all skills alters the cellular mechanism of production of myelin which creates neural pathways. Making mistakes generates talent as it will produce myelin growth. The central theme of the book would be the concept that talent and skill development comes down to practice and not innate traits genetics. ![The Talent Code - Talent & Myelin](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode3-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Talent & Myelin › Sonny Brown")## Talent & Myelin Myelin acts as an insulating layer around nerves that regulate electrical impulses transmitting to nerve cells. Thoughts and movements are the results of these electrical impulses moving through our brain to our muscles. A thicker layer of myelin allows these electrical impulses to move faster and more precisely, making it crucial for the [development of skill](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/). Growth of myelin occurs when you make mistakes as it causes new nerve circuits to fire, which results in the thickening of myelin. Execution of skills comes down to the accurate firing of neural circuits; practice builds the myelin for these circuits, so skill development on a neurological basis depends on the efficient production of myelin. The most efficient way to create myelin would be through deep practice. > "*Struggle is not optional—it's neurologically required: in order to get your skill circuit to fire optimally, you must by definition fire the circuit suboptimally; you must make mistakes and pay attention to those mistakes; you must slowly teach your circuit. You must also keep firing that circuit—i.e., practicing—in order to keep myelin functioning properly"* > > - Daniel Coyle ![The Talent Code - Deep Practice](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode4-1-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Deep Practice › Sonny Brown")## Deep Practice Deep practice requires struggle, attention, focus, making mistakes and correcting those mistakes while setting a goal that exceeds your current ability—deliberately causing you to fail and then repeating the process after reflection on what caused the failure to reach your desired goal. Choosing the correct goal requires finding the sweet spot between too complicated and too easy, where you will struggle, but can still manage. Focus and attention will be critical; you need to be consistently noticing your mistakes, correcting the errors and then repeating the process. Chunking skills up into smaller units will allow you to accelerate the method of deep practice. Instead of practising a long sequence, increase your focus by breaking it down to smaller chunks so you can repeat it quickly, notice the mistakes more clearly and fix them more efficiently. Alter the speed that you perform the chunks, slow it down till you do it perfect and then you can speed it back up and then piece the fragments back together into the entire sequence. ![The Talent Code - Ignition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode6-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Ignition › Sonny Brown")## Ignition Ignition or motivation provides the energy to overcome the uncomfortable and tiresome struggle that you will experience during deep practice. Therefore, deep practice will require a sustained level of high motivation and energy which then gets converted into skill. Ignition will be triggered by an external cue that will give you the desire to achieve a skill and also the belief that it will be possible. The cue might be an idea of you you want to be or what you want to achieve and the knowledge that you are capable of attaining, which then sustains you during deep practice. In some areas, you can observe ignition after a single person makes a breakthrough in their sport which then acts as a cue to trigger the belief that it would be possible for similar athletes to achieve the same result. > "Growing skill, as we've seen, requires deep practice. But deep practice isn't a piece of cake: it requires energy, passion, and commitment. In a word, it requires motivational fuel, the second element of the talent code. In this section we'll see how motivation is created and sustained through a process I call ignition. Ignition and deep practice work together to produce skill in exactly the same way that a gas tank combines with an engine to produce velocity in an automobile. Ignition supplies the energy, while deep practice translates that energy over time into forward progress, a.k.a. wraps of myelin." > > - Daniel Coyle ![The Talent Code - Master Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode8-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Master Coaching › Sonny Brown")## Master Coaching Talent will rarely develop on its own without a teacher, coach or guide. Master coaching often doesn't look like the typical stereotype of great coaches giving boisterous motivational speeches. Usually, it seems more subtle, with selectively targeted feedback containing precise information on how to correct errors and improve performance. The continuous feedback process assists the athlete in the reproduction of deep practice. Coaches can also provide ignition and motivation, but that can seem much different from coaches that assist in deep practice. Motivation to continue during the awkward beginner stage of learning will be required. Such motivation is fostered better by a friendly coach who knows the athlete personally and can tailor their advice to make them feel good and remain encouraged to continue persisting with their development. Master coaches will then need an expansive knowledge of their sport to be able to meet the individual needs of their athletes. A master coach can then connect deep practice to ignition, providing them with the motivation to be able to persevere so they can then be lead into the state of deep practice. Master coaches offer short, clear, precise and straightforward instructions that when followed, translates the technical knowledge of the coach into the growth of the athlete's myelin. > "…the teachers and coaches I met were quiet, even reserved. They were mostly older; many had been teaching for thirty or forty years. They possessed the same sort of gaze: steady, deep, unblinking. They listened far more than they talked. They seemed allergic to giving pep talks or inspiring speeches; they spent most of their time offering small, targeted, highly specific adjustments. They had an extraordinary sensitivity to the person they were teaching, customizing each message to each student's personality. After meeting a dozen of these people, I started to suspect that they were all secretly related. They were talent whisperers." > > - Daniel Coyle ## Conclusion of The Talent Code Summary ![The Talent Code - Key Elements](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/talentcode10-1024x1024.jpg "The Talent Code - Key Elements › Sonny Brown")### The Talent Code Summary & Notes Review Talent becomes dependant on the growth of myelin, a sheath around your neural circuits. The growth can occur with the process of deep practice, training at the edge of your ability, making mistakes and correcting them. Talent will demand long term motivation to endure the struggle and frustration that transpires throughout deep practice. Motivation can ignite due to external cues which give the athlete a belief in their capabilities. Talent can be encouraged by master [coaches ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching")who transform a wealth of experience into clear, precise, actionable feedback and produces the motivation that meets the individual needs of an athlete. > "The talent code is built on a revolutionary scientific discovery involving a neural insulator called myelin, which some neurologists now consider to be the holy grail of acquiring skill. Here's why. Every human skill, whether it's playing baseball or playing Bach, is created by chains of nerve fibers carrying a tiny electrical impulse—basically, a signal traveling through a circuit. Myelin's vital role is to wrap those nerve fibers the same way that rubber insulation wraps a copper wire, making the signal stronger and faster by preventing the electrical impulses from leaking out. When we fire our circuits the right way—when we practice swinging that bat or playing that note—our myelin responds by wrapping layers of insulation around the neural circuit, each new layer adding a bit more skill and speed. The thicker the myelin gets, the better it insulates, and the faster and more accurate our movements and thoughts become." > > - [Daniel Coyle](http://danielcoyle.com/ "http://danielcoyle.com/") Peace, Love & Raging Waters, Sonny Brown ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning --- ### [Robert Degle On Leg Locks in MMA & The Leg Entanglement Meta](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) **Published:** March 31, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Robert Degle MMA Leg Locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/robert_degle_leglocks_mma-1024x576.jpg "Robert Degle MMA Leg Locks › Sonny Brown")I talk to Robert Degle about Leg Locks in MMA and how they have influenced the Meta game. Robert who is a Danaher Death Squad member and trains under [John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/down-under-danaher-peurto-rico-pro-grappling-craig-jones-bjj/ "Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu From Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment"). We discuss the use of leg locks in MMA, how leg attacks can be used either poorly or how they can be applied in a more high percentage manner. We do this by talking about some of the greatest leg lockers in MMA like Imanari, Ryan Hall, Rousimar Palhares and Marcin Held. Along with some of the essential MMA bouts containing leg lock battles and go through Gary Tonons career in One F.C. to examine the D.D.S. use of MMA leg entanglements. ### Listen to the Leg Locks In MMA Interview ## ROBERT DEGLE INTERVIEW **Sonny Brown:** Robert, how are you today, mate? **Robert Degle:** Good. Just got up. It's pretty early here in New York. **Sonny:** Early in New York unlike here in Australia. **Robert:** \[laughs\] Yes, \[crosstalk\]. **Sonny:** A little bit early for grappling. **Robert:** Yes. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** Well, that's what I was going to ask, actually. It's been a couple of months since we talked, at least. I think just wondering what you've been up to since we last spoke, where you're at because I know there was some plans to go back to Singapore and get back with Evolve, but, obviously, with things changing so rapidly, since then the rest of the Danaher team has moved to Puerto Rico. A whole brave new world out there. What's going on with you? What have you been up to? **Robert:** As I just gave away, I'm still in New York. I'm moving very soon, I'll just say that. I don't want to say where. Anyway, you can DM me and I'll just tell you. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** Sure. **Robert:** I don't want to publicly say it until I'm there, let's just say that. **Sonny:** Yes, okay. **Robert:** A lot of people asked me about Puerto Rico. It's like I didn't go because I've just been waiting to go to Singapore. It's like what was the point? Well, look, make no mistake, I'd love to train more with my coach and some of my teammates, but there are a lot of us still here. Not everybody left. I'm training at Renzo Gracie in Northern Valley, which Professor Carl Massaro is one of our teammates. He's been in the blue basement for decades. I have a lot of good guys to train with there. Also, in a lot of ways, I'm very attached to New York probably more so than I should be. \[chuckles\] Craig asked me once, he's like, "Why do you like this place?" I was like, "Pure nostalgia, I grew up here. That's maybe the only reason." \[laughs\] I'm pretty reluctant to leave unless I'm leaving for something that I really want to leave for, if that makes sense. **Sonny:** Yes. What about this allure of these Puerto Rican tax rates that I hear is so tempting? Does that-- **Robert:** I don't make enough money to care. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Fair enough. Still going to be in New York for a while. Plans to move somewhere else, keep that, wait until it happens. Don't count the chickens before they hatch. **Robert:** Yes. **Sonny:** One thing I know that you have, obviously, done since we last spoke is released an instructional on leglocks for MMA. I think it's a great topic to discuss because it was even just a couple of weeks before that, a few guys in the gym were asking me and one of the other coaches, "What about leglocks for MMA?" We started discussing it and probably hit him with all the standard things that you might say. Maybe I'll give you the chance to introduce your instructional and maybe some brief thoughts on the topic, and then I can give you some of those objections that I would give someone else who was asking the same question. **Robert:** Yes, for sure. I'll start off by talking about what was the initial inspiration for the instructional. I think people think I'm joking when I say this, but this is really why I decided to make the instructional. I can't tell you how many times some middle-aged blue belt has commented on one of my videos where I pulled [guard in a grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-interview-universal-theory-guard/) match have been like, "If this is the street, I would beat the shit out of you." \[laughs\] I hate that so much because it's assuming that I would pull guard in a street fight. Obviously, that's not what I'm going to be doing really. These comments which you would be shocked at how often they-- Maybe you're not shocked. **Sonny:** I probably wouldn't be shocked, but I'm sure a lot of people have got some wild comments that-- Yes. **Robert:** They have it all the time and it's-- There was one in particular where Grappling Industries reposted a match that I had, where I competed under the Grappling Industries tournament, and I heel hooked this guy. It was a pretty nice submission. This guy commented about how it's not realistic for actual fighting and stuff and all these other things. I started to think about why do these guys look at what I'm doing and think that it's ridiculous? The conclusion I came to is they think it's leg locks, but it's not actually leglocks because if we think about what a leg lock is, it's a joint lock that breaks your leg. If I told you that somehow I could equip you with the ability to break somebody's leg in a fight, would that be a valuable weapon? Obviously. **Sonny:** Yes. **Robert:** It goes without saying. It'd be very silly to say otherwise. **Sonny:** Sounds scary if--- \[chuckles\] **Robert:** Yes. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** It carries some serious weight behind it. **Robert:** Right. What they were objecting to I think more so is how you got there. They go, "Oh, he's sitting on his butt, he's going towards the guy, then he's doing moves to get him in a leg lock." There's interim steps and stuff such. The trick is, yes, you're totally right. I don't think you should pull guard in MMA or in a street fight. In a street fight, you're going to get kicked in the face. In MMA, kicks are usually not legal on the ground, but there are still a lot of bad things that can happen to you. Yes, they're totally right. That's not a good idea. The idea that leglocks themselves are not a good idea, I think there's a lot of silly bias against them, which doesn't-- I think when you actually look at the available evidence, it doesn't measure up. The criticisms don't measure up to what I think they're actually capable of doing. I wanted to give-- It's funny. I actually think on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who overestimate the value of leg locks. I wanted to give what I thought was a measured, almost I will even say conservative, approach to pursuing leglocks in MMA, which I think that can be used very effectively. Also, I wanted to temper them, in my opinion, with a more realistic expectations for it. People take this instructional, and you're not going to turn into the greatest leg locker on the face of the planet. It's going to equip you with a practical realistic way to use leglocks in situations where strikes are involved. I hope I achieved it. I don't know. **Sonny:** Yes. Obviously, it's probably one of the standard objections is once you can keep people on the ground, obviously, pulling guard becomes not the smartest idea in MMA as such. Yet, where we probably saw leglocks taking or used most in MMA was in Japan in Pride, the promotions where you can actually use soccer kicks and everything on the ground. Do you think that that counters that narrative or--? **Robert:** I think that's mainly a cultural thing like the community. The community of grappling practitioners there. Let's say you go out there in a street fight and the guy goes to kick you in the face, could you counter that and leg lock? Yes, of course, but I don't think \[crosstalk\]. **Sonny:** That's not a video you want going around if you miss. **Robert:** I wouldn't recommend it. **Sonny:** I wouldn't recommend it either. There is that one video of the street fight, there's a guy in a basketball court. I'm sure you've seen it. Where he takes a guy down and holds him in a heel hook. It's been a while since I've seen it. He threatens, "I'm going to break your leg." Of course, for a basketballer, I'm sure that carries even more significant measures. Other than that though, is there anyone that comes to mind that you can think of? **Robert:** As for street fights? I don't really watch that many street fight videos, so I don't know. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** Fair enough. You're not even making the point that they do work in street fights necessarily or that you would recommend it, so maybe that's not the way to look at it. **Robert:** I actually have a part in the instructional I talk about the purposes of leglocks for self-defense. I think they can be used for that. What I basically say is, "Guys, this is a last-resort thing. Don't do this unless you have no other option." I do think you can use them for self-defense. I've never had to use them for self-defense. I've used jiu-jitsu for self-defense. I use takedowns and guard passing, which is what I think should be your first option. I think your first option as a grappler in any situation where strikes are involved should be taking the guy down and passing his guard. I think that is always going to be primary, but sometimes you can't take the guy down. If you can't take the guy down and let's say maybe he's a better striker than you, geez, what are you going to do? I think leglocks can feature very well into that sort of a situation. **Sonny:** I like that. Maybe let's start with the objection that I gave these guys just a few weeks ago I think it was. Should we do some leglocks in MMA? Now, with that being said, like my gym, we've always been okay with leg locks. I've trained with people who won their MMA fights with leg locks. It was in our MMA syllabus, toe hold, knee bar. We never shied away from it, but it's still the old classic thing is while you're going for a leg lock with both your hands tied up around the leg, your opponent's hands are free to punch you and it's too risky. It's too risky. Don't do it. You're better off just focusing and scrambling, getting on top rather than committing your hands to one of the legs while you can get punched. What would you say to someone saying that? **Robert:** Well, they're totally right. There are guys throughout the history of leglocks in MMA who, you're absolutely right, completely disregarded the need to protect themselves from getting punched in the face. I don't want to call people out. I feel bad, but I will mention one fight. A very, in my opinion, notable example of somebody who I think is not a bad leg-locker, but, man, he didn't do the right thing in this fight. If you look at Ian Entwistle versus Dan Hooker. **Sonny:** I was thinking that one myself. **Robert:** I feel bad. I'm not trying to shit on Ian because I'm not saying he's bad whatsoever. In this match, he didn't do a good job. He held onto the heel hook for such a long time and it's clearly not working. We can talk more about this later on, but I'll just mention this now. I think there's two main ways in which leg-locking is different in grappling from situations where strikes are involved, obviously including MMA. I think one of those big differences is you have to have the ability to mitigate the opponent's ability to basically-- If he can touch your face, he can punch you. If he's within a hand's reach, you've got to make sure he can't. You have to stop that. You have to make it be the case that he is not a hand's reach away from you. Because you're totally right, both your hands are going to be committed to that heel. You have to make sure that as you're breaking him, not only can he not mitigate the break, defend somehow. Most MMA guys don't know how to heel slip or toe slip. That's not a significant issue in MMA, but they do know how to punch you in the face. You've got to make sure that you do a good job of keeping the guy from being able to touch your face, which obviously would translate to getting punched in the face. For instance, in that fight, Ian, at one point, he does a really good job keeping Dan away, and then for some reason, he goes to what basically is an outside sankaku at one point, which is way better because you can keep the guy away from you. Then he goes right back to a regular 50/50 and it's like, "Damn, dude. You had the position. You're so close." \[chuckles\] He got beat up. You hate to see that. The guy does a great job getting the position, he gets his heel and he's got everything that he should need to get the break. Not that I want to see him get broken, but to get the tap, whatever. He gets beat up. Whereas by contrast, a really good example-- There's a couple of ways you can keep the guy from punching you. I think there's two main ways. The first one is, I call it a misdirection. Any time you put pressure to the back of somebody's knee, what will happen is two things, their heel becomes exposed typically and their upper body is turned away from you. If you imagine a backside 50/50. In a backside 50/50, what happens is-- Let's say the guy's foot is flat on the mat. They're standing up, you've got a 50/50 and they're going to punch you. If you spin under for a backside 50/50, what happens is you start to put pressure to the back of their knee. As a result, their heel comes off the mat because the weight, it's pushing the knee forward, brings the heel off the mat. Then you can expose the heel. At the same time, their upper body is turned away from you, so it's very hard for them to punch you. Some notable examples of this in MMA would be Ryan Hall versus Frans Slioa. I probably pronounced that wrong. \[chuckles\] That was an Ultimate Fighter. One of his qualifying fights. Ryan does an amazing job in that fight of keeping Frans away from him and making it hard to punch him. I studied Ryan a lot because I think Ryan is genuinely a master of not getting his face caved in as he's going for leg locks, you know what I mean? If you go back and watch that fight, you'll see at one point, Ryan is in a bottom 50/50, Frans is in a great position to punch him. He can hit him really hard from where they are, but Ryan does a beautiful spin-under movement. What he does when he does that is he puts pressure to the back of the knee that exposes the heel and also it keeps him safe from strikes. Now, the second way you can keep yourself safe from strikes, Ryan actually does this also in that fight really well. You can take your feet and put that in front of the guy so you're pushing him away from you. It could be an outside sankaku. There are a lot of other variations of your feet. If you look at that fight, Ryan puts his feet in what I call a double foot-on-hip ashi. It's the same position that Lachlan finished Mansher Khera with. He actually didn't finish Mansher from an outside sankaku. It was what I call a double foot-on-hip. Ryan uses the same basic position to finish Frans. That's really good because you can push the guy away from you while also getting a really strong break. I was also going to mention, you can also look up Iminari versus Joachim Hansen back in the day in Pride to see Iminari is in a bottom 50/50 and he does an amazing job spinning under just like Ryan did in that other fight to keep himself safe from strikes. But he does get KO'd very brutally. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I was going to say, which match was that exactly? Didn't they have two? Because that was a very brutal KO. That one stands out. ` **Robert:** Very vicious, but that was not from 50/50. He did a good job staying safe in 50/50. Imanari got KO'd going for an Imanari roll. **Sonny:** Just goes straight into a big knee. **Robert:** Yes, it was bad. **Sonny:** Hellboy, Joachim Hansen was such a good fight as well. It just didn't transition when UFC bought Pride. Not a lot of people know him, but he's an amazing fighter. Imanari, that was a tough out. **Robert:** Yes, for sure. The thing is people say that the whole thing about you can get punched in the face. The thing with that is is you're absolutely right. I don't even disagree with that. I actually completely agree with it. The thing is it's like, if that's the case then, then we have to make sure that when and if we go for leglocks, we have to make sure we are well-equipped to not get punched in the face as we do this. There are definitely ways to do that. Also, I think oftentimes, with that criticism of getting punched in the face is also connected to this criticism of positional loss. You're on top, and then you go to the bottom. **Sonny:** Get on top, stay on top. Don't ever drop back for a leglock. You could give up position. That could be the end of the fight. **Robert:** What's funny is I mostly agree and I even say that on the instructional. I'll tackle that a few ways. The first way is the same criticism holds true for armbars. Nobody ever shits on armbars for that. **Sonny:** I actually advise the guys not to go for armbars for MMA. For that reason, I like the arm triangle unless there's 30 seconds left in the round just like the classic armbar. You better not mess that one up. You better be good at those armbars in the gym, but certainly, there's not that stigma around it. **Robert:** I think that's good advice, to be honest. Don't do it until the end of round, be cautious. I totally agree. The trick is just what that discounts is the idea that all leglocks are born out of just dropping from the top. I spent the vast majority of the instructional talking about how can you use leglocks from the bottom position. Let's say you got taken down or maybe even knocked down or from a situation where you're trying to take them down but you just can't get it. I think that's the best situation to use leglocks in. I mostly would agree with the idea that if you're in a fight where punches are involved and you're on the top, I think falling back for any submission is not really the smartest thing to do, but I do practice that by saying I think that it is feasible to go for leglocks in situations where you feel like you're going to-- Let's say you're on top and you're going for a knee cut, and you maxed up into a cross Ashi, you're still on top of the guy. You haven't really given up bottom position. Even if you fall back for a cross Ashi and you're controlling both legs, that's a really good position to just get right back on top. Basically, I think that if you're going to go for leglocks from the top at MMA, it should be from a position where you can much more easily get back on top. I generally don't recommend it from the top falling back for a straight Ashi or even a 50/50 or anything like that. I would say go to cross Ashi from the top. Go to cross Ashi pretty much only because you can control his legs, and then you can stop him from-- He's not going to get on top of you. You're going to be in a double-seated situation so long as you control both of his legs. What that means is you're going to be able to get back on top. The risk isn't as high. It's like that criticism, basically, I totally understand it. It's not an idiotic criticism. There is reall merit to it. I just think that we shouldn't discount the use of these valuable weapons because there are things that can go wrong when we use them and because there are, I think, dumb ways to use them. I think if you're just taking people down and then falling back for leglocks immediately, that's pretty dumb. It's not a good strategy. You work for the take down. I would recommend try to pass his guard and control him. That's how you win rounds in MMA and that's also how you stay safe from getting punched with real force, but that's a dumb way to use leglocks but there's a smart way to use leglocks, which is from the bottom position. Also, keep in mind, leglocks are an awesome way to get on top. You can attack leglocks and then when the guy defends, a common defensive reaction you're going to see when you attempt leglocks is the guy's going to bring his hips to the mat because there are a couple of reasons to do that that keep him safer relatively. Guess what? You can get on top. A really good example of this is-- This isn't MMA but it's a good example of this, is Craig Jones versus Matheus Lutes at Polaris. Craig goes for a Kani Basami and he gets what is called a Russian Ashi, and he goes for a heel hook. Russian Ashi isn't really the best for finishes and Lutes is also very hard to tap with leglocks. He clearly doesn't want to tap to a leglock. It's a very tight-looking heel hook but he doesn't tap to it. What does Craig do? Craig does a great job of using the position then to just get on top. If you don't get the breaks, just get on top. You know what I mean? If you're doing that from the bottom position or if you have the ability from the top once you go for the leglock to get back on top, you mitigate the risk of being on bottom and losing position and such. **Sonny:** Okay. That idea then of using the leglocks to just at least offer a threat from the bottom to maybe someone's walking into your open guard, you can just at least threat with a heel hook to make them back off or even using leg attacks to help pass guard. That's something that Sakuraba would do as well a little bit. I guess that, as an addition to the toolbox, seems like always a good thing to have. When we think of leglocks in MMA, there's a handful of guys who you think you point to and say, "These are the guys." Obviously, Imanari, Palhares. I would put in Entwistle in there as well because he did score a lot of heel hooks in MMA. He got a lot of quick victories as well. They're those guys that we look at, but there doesn't seem to be that many of them. It's like that is what they're known for. The ones you look to that make leglocks work in MMA are really those guys. That's their game, especially Imanari, where he would enter just by throwing these wild kicks with reckless abandon that would just-- It was a beautiful thing to do. It seemed like Ryan Hall took a little bit of that, but then he actually has a bit more technique in those kicks. Actually, probably a lot more. How do you think about the disparity then of just how many people are leglockers in MMA versus the potential of their use? **Robert:** A few comments. I just want to comment on Ryan Hall first. I think this is interesting. I view Ryan as an updated refined version of Imanari. I think he has a very similar approach to Imanari in a lot of ways and he's just like a more systematic controlled version of Imanari in a lot of ways. Not to disparage Imanari whatsoever, because he's actually- **Sonny:** Not at all. **Robert:** -a gigantic influence on me. It's fairly arguable. One thing Imanari was not good at was being controlled. He used to do crazy shit. **Sonny:** That's what reckless abandon is what I'm describing because he would just throw, and then just all of a sudden, he'd end up with your heel and that was it. **Robert:** Yes. He's pretty wild. It's an interesting point you bring up. You see a lot of these guys that they do leglocks but they're super specialists at it. I think there are two main ways to use leglocks in MMA, you could even say in combat sports in general, because I think even in grappling, you see this distinction a little bit. You see guys that they take leglocks and then they make that the main focal point of their game. In MMA, you can take somebody like Paul Harris as an example. That becomes the center point of their game. You can have a lot of success with that, but I think there is a ceiling to that. It's hard if leglocks are the chief focus of your game to succeed at the highest level. On the other side of the coin, you have guys that use leglocks rather than as an end into themselves. They use them as a means to an end and the larger end is the positional game, the upper body positional game which is getting on top, passing the guard, taking it back or getting them out to punch them in the face if it's MMA. Leglocks can situate themselves very well into that context, that strategy of using the threat of leglocks, you can either break the guy and then now he is easier to take down. If I break both your of legs, it will be obviously much easier to take you down or the threat of that will allow you to get on top. Just off the top of my head, I think two of the best leglockers in MMA for the way I would recommend using leglocks in MMA would be Gary Tonon. Obviously, there's bias there but I do think it's true. **Sonny:** Yes, I will ask you about that in a bit. **Robert:** I also think Marcin Held deserves. **Sonny:** Yes, of course. **Robert:** Marcin is somebody who we've seen the development of his career where in the beginning he was one of those guys that it was leglock or bust. If he didn't get the break he was probably going to fall short. I don't now if you remember his fight with Michael Chandler where, godamn he was so close. Have you ever seen this fight? **Sonny:** I think I went through all of Marcin's fights a while back so I would have watched it but I'm not remembering it for a while because he played a lot of Williams Guards so when I was looking over that I went through every one of his I could find. **Robert:** Okay, so at some point go and check out his old fight with Michael Chandler where he's so close to finishing Michael Chandler and then he doesn't and Michael gets out and Michael arm triangles on it. It's like, "Ah, dead," but he's so close. It was such a nice knee bar entry but you see he's young and inexperienced. When the leglock falls short his whole game falls apart but as his game developed over time, you start to see a maturity. He actually fought a friend of mine named Phillipe Nover. Phillipe Nover trains with us in the blue basement. **Sonny:** Phillipe from the ultimate fighter? **Robert:** Yes, that Phillipe Nover. **Sonny:** Did he win it, MMA? **Robert:** He did. He won, yes. Phillipe is such a good guy. Phillipe's actually a nurse which is fucking crazy. **Sonny:** Yes, I remember that. **Robert:** He still works as a nurse nowadays. It's wild but he trains with us. I've rolled with him many many times and he has very good leglock defense. In that fight, Marcin couldn't get the finish, so what did he do? He came on top. Sorry, Phillipe, he used the leglock really well to positionally advance which is I think that's the most mature intelligent way to use it. Really, I'm going to be honest, any context whether it's fighting or what's funny is I think at the highest level, I really think the same style that dominates in terms of the general strategy, obviously, specifics change but the same style that dominates MMA grappling I also think dominates pure grappling. ADCC and I'm talking about No-Gi only, the Gi is a totally different ball game. \[crosstalk\] ADCC is pretty similar to MMA grappling when you see what succeeds. When you watch the guys that are dominant at ADCC I do think that style translates very well into MMA. What I'm recommending doing for leglocks in MMA not seeing it as an end unto itself, not seeing it as distinguished or divorced from this positional strategy but rather seeing it as a part of this positional strategy. I think that also can be used very well for ADCC or just competitive No-Gi where by all means try to finish them with the heel hook but in the event that either maybe you can't get the finish or maybe they just need the break because there are fights where people literally had their ACLs torn mid-fight. Conor McGregor against Max Holloway. It wasn't a heel hook but apparently, Conor popped his ACL in the second round and he just kept fighting. **Sonny:** Lot of adrenaline going through the bone. A lot on the line that much bigger crowds and everything to keep you going. **Robert:** Yes. I've heard of other fights too where people, I think if I remember correctly, I think Kurt Pellegrino tore his ACL on a fight or something and he kept going and he went up winning so yes, sometimes people will just eat it. You have to be prepared for what do we do next. If the leglock is all you have, then it's a rough spot to be in. I think the biggest adjustment we've got to make for leglocking is to just situate them into a different strategic context and when we do that, pretty much all of the major criticisms, I think they all pretty much evaporate. I think most of those criticisms are just born out of looking at leglocks in a way that you shouldn't be using them. If you look at them and how I think a smarter strategy is, I think they work really really well if that makes sense. **Sonny:** I get where you're coming from which is basically, of course, if you are just diving back, if you've got full mountain instead of opting to punch the guy you just dive back onto a toe hold or something and you lose it and then end up on bottom. Of course, it's not going to work. That's not what you're recommending to do. **Robert:** That's the dumbest thing ever. **Sonny:** Yes, \[laughs\] but you're saying that there is a way to use this strategically and those are the times when you can look in MMA. There's evidence of how they can be used in such a way and as long as you focus on that don't just get that tunnel vision of the legs, then they can be a useful addition into your MMA game, right? **Robert:** Yes, absolutely, and also it's funny, you mentioned toe holds. A lot of people have asked me, they've gone through the instructional or they've dm'd me and they said, "I don't see any toe holds or ankle locks in this structure," I'm like, "Yes, because you should not be doing that in MMA." \[laughs\] In my opinion, it's like, "Look, can you get toe hold an ankle lock finishes?" Yes, obviously you can. Andrei Arlovski won the UFC Heavyweight title with an ankle lock. A lot of people mentioned that fight to be like, "Yes, Rob, we were under the lock." **Sonny:** There's always one. **Robert:** Yes. It's like, "Okay guys, but we're talking about percentages here." You can go to a local grappling industries tournament and put some tough blue belt in an ankle lock and he'll refuse to tap and you'll break his ankle. I've seen that many times at local tournaments. If someone's going to do that for a $5 medal, people are going to do that in high stakes professional MMA. I can speak from personal experience, I had two matches. One was at the ADCC trials, one was at a fucking Naga, not really worth it, but I let my foot break both times. They're both like a steem lock variation. My foot broke both times and I just didn't tap and I won both matches. **Sonny:** Was it worth it? **Robert:** In hindsight, knowing that my foot is fine now, yes. I'm glad. **Sonny:** Okay. \[laughter\] **Robert:** Immediately after the second one, the second one was because it was the same foot. The second one was definitely worse. I couldn't walk for a month and I was like, "Bro, that was not smart." I'm 100% sure I should've just tapped that but in hindsight, no. It healed up fine and there was no lingering issues. My foot is fine, but anyway, the point I'm getting at is that you don't want to bang-- If I'm going to attempt to break someone with a leglock, I sure as fuck don't want it to be the least damaging variation of leglocks. I basically recommend the only leglocks you go for in MMA are knee bars and heel hooks and they could be outside or inside. Obviously, we all know that the inside heel hook is the most devastating. I don't think should just count knee bars either. I think knee bars are very valuable. I think they're very very valuable. I think those three, outside inside heel hooks and knee bars. **Sonny:** I wouldn't disagree with that. If you did take knee bars out of there then people would be telling you about Frank Mir beating that beast of a man Brock Lesnar with a knee bar. It was a good time, right? **Robert:** Yes, I just say those three because what do they do, they attack the most vulnerable, they attack the joint of the leg that's the most-- If your foot breaks, that shit will heal, but not all the time. I'm not an expert on the biomechanics of your feet, but my foot has been broken and it's healed. It's not as devastating, but the knee, man, we all know the knee is very serious. The consequences are much more significant. **Sonny:** For sure. It actually highlights something that I just want to bring up as an aside, which I think is the way that the Danaher team uses the term break, it's not necessarily breaking the bone. A break could mean a ligament tear, just any major swelling. Is that what is considered a break? It's not necessarily the bones, right? It took me a while to get my head around it, because when I would hear "Break," I think, "Oh, they must have broken a bone," but it's not necessarily that. Is that right? Because that's just what I've managed to figure out on the outside. **Robert:** It's funny, I've never sat down and asked Danaher, "What do we mean by break?" What I take it to mean, I think we're just referring to structural destruction. That sounds like the black metal album. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I like it. Structural destruction. It's like a song title. **Robert:** I don't know how else I would describe it. Any time a structure is destroyed. It's funny, I do get your confusion a little bit. My teammates and I, we often times talk about pops. I'm like, "What is a pop?" I still don't really know. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Is a pop different than a break? Like, "I got a pop," is not a break? **Robert:** I think a pop is just when you hear a pop, just physically, which I don't know what that tells you. I had a match once where there was a pop in my knee and it just turned out to be an air pop. I was like, "Okay, nice." **Sonny:** That's what I've heard. It can be air or it can actually be when something gets stretched and the pop is actually when it goes back into place. Something gets stretched out and when it rebounds back into place, that's the pop sound. A physiotherapist told me that when my knee popped and I had assumed that that pop was a tear, that was the noise your knee made when it tore, was a pop, but they said that it's actually when it snaps back into place apparently. **Robert:** Interesting. The one time I had a match where I couldn't finish this guy with an inside heel hook and my mechanics were off. I asked Danaher about it. I sat down with him and I was like, "Okay, I got to figure out what happened." The first thing he asked me was, "Did you hear a pop?" I think a pop is a sign, it's a signal that there could have been a break. It's not proof, but it's a signal that there could have been. I think that's generally what we mean by pop. Break, again, I think break mainly refers to ligaments, to be honest. We're mainly not attacking bones. It's mainly the ligaments of the knee or of the elbow or the shoulder. I think those are probably the three main targets, the knee, elbow, shoulder, and obviously we got feet too. I'd say those are all the major targets, and it's mainly ligament, I would say. The only break to your bone I could think of would be that Tex Johnson ankle lock, because he almost does an ankle lock higher than most people do them, but he seems to get such torque on it that it snaps the shinbone. It's funny, I'm telling you not to do ankle locks in MMA. There are exceptions. If you tell me that you're capable of snapping somebody's shinbone. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Maybe we add it to the arsenal. **Robert:** Yes, that's different. Can most people do that? I think a lot of that is also a byproduct of just being an absolute moose of a human being. I've never seen a devastating break from an ankle lock in MMA. Actually, okay, I have once. Héctor Lombard got a pretty nasty one. **Sonny:** Which one was whose? I'm trying to-- **Robert:** It was an obscure fight. **Sonny:** He fought a lot in Australia. I saw him fight a lot live because he came up on the CFC, a local promotion down here, and trained at one of the local gyms until he got onto Bellator. There's definitely one where he breaks some guy's leg in a gym, I think it was a knee bar, but it's a horrific one that I don't want to even go Google again. **Robert:** \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I'm trying to remember. The fight one doesn't come to mind off the top of my head. **Robert:** I think I know which one you're talking about. I don't think it's that one. It's in a dusty cage. Sorry, not dusty cage, it's like a ring. It's like a shitty-looking ring. It was the last fight he had. What's his name? **Sonny:** Yes, I'm starting to remember, it was Brian Ebersole on the card as well. **Robert:** I think he was. Yes, he was. **Sonny:** I think it was an explosion fight or something like that. **Robert:** I think, if I remember correctly, Héctor got a pretty nasty ankle lock on. I think the kid was really young too, which is terrible. Apparently Héctor snapped his shinbone. Anyway, people always bring up these examples. Look, man, I'm totally open minded. If you can show me that it works consistently, fine, by all means. I'm just arguing that the goal for leglockers in MMA should be-- This is another criticism people levy against it, which I think is actually an intelligent criticism, they say you have a limited amount of training time. **Sonny:** Yes. This was one I was going to bring up as well. **Robert:** I hear this all the time, it's very valid. You have a limited amount of training time, you should be allocating your training time to more relevant areas. Okay, I don't disagree, yes. I think leglocks are probably less important than striking and less important than takedowns, but I would argue they are more important than arm bars from the guard, which people do not seem to want to stop drilling. They're more important than triangles from the guard. I think they're more important than a lot of other things from the bottom position, quite frankly. I think that leglocks can be situated very well within this idea of using submission attacks to get on top. I think that because they're not as important as the most important things, doesn't mean we shouldn't allocate time to practicing them. On top of that, I think if you're going to practice them, only practice the most relevant areas that have been demonstrated to be effective. You can get a nasty ankle lock if you practice it, if you refine it and practice it. I rolled with guys with nasty ankle locks. The time those guys took, these guys were not MMA fighters, they were all grapplers. Let's say they're MMA fighters. What do you think is a more relevant use of your time, working on that ankle lock or working on your boxing? Probably your boxing. **Sonny:** Definitely boxing. **Robert:** Yes, definitely, I agree. I hear these things, it's funny because, because I'm in the middle of this debate where some guys are hyper leg-locky. They're like, "Fucking let's just go out there leg-lock people." The other side is like, "Leg locks suck." I'm in the middle like, "No, let's find common ground." There's a middle point we can reach that I think is more reasonable than either of these two extremes. This criticism of limited training time is very valid. I think that you can still use them effectively, more effectively than many other things, and I think that as long as you allocate just the amount of time to learn the most relevant skills, get really good at the core skills, finishing with heel hooks and knee bars, gaining the positions, mitigating the opponent's ability to strike you from the positions. Those are the main things. You get really good at those things and you're going to be able to use leglocks really effectively to either break people or to get on top of them. Those are two very damn good things to have in any fighting scenario. I used to coach some MMA guys. I'm not currently coaching any MMA guys, but I plan on doing so in the future. I have a friend of mine who is Singaporean, who is an MMA fighter, he was actually being scouted by the UFC but he's stuck in Singapore. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** It's a tough time. **Robert:** It's a pandemic, yes. \[laughs\] It sucks, but it is what it is. I'm going to coach him on using leg locks in MMA and he's talked to me a lot about the strategy and stuff, and it's like, "Look man, focus on your boxing and your wrestling first and foremost. That's paramount. I don't want to interrupt that training time. That's got to be your central focus, but then the leg locks are going to come into play when that stuff doesn't work." It's funny, I don't know if you remember, do you remember that old Eddie Bravo video where he's talking about- **Sonny:** *The Third Option*? **Robert:** *The Third Option*, yes. **Sonny:** Oh yes, oh yes. **Robert:** I actually totally-- People can rag on Eddie, but do you remember when Tony fought Justin Gaethje recently? Eddie was like try an Imanari. **Sonny:** Maybe try an Imanari. Poor guy. \[laughter\] **Robert:** Yes. People attacked Eddie, but the reality is- **Sonny:** Maybe. **Robert:** -nothing else was working. He’s getting his ass kicked. **Sonny:** Was he supposed to just give him this magic bit of advice that would have won the fight? It’s a tough position to be in. **Robert:** The thing is that people shit on Eddie there but it’s like a disingenuous criticism because Eddie didn't say that-- Imagine if in the beginning of the first round Tony's about to walk out and Eddie said, "Maybe try a new move." Then it's pretty inappropriate. That's not the time for that. In the fifth round, you've been getting your ass kicked the whole fight, you can't take the guy down, fuck it, try the leg lock. **Sonny:** Exactly. The tough thing to go with that too is if he had just given like the cliche, "Come on mate, dig deep, go out there, give me five minutes Tony, that's all we need. I know you're an animal," kind of speech, which is useless most of the time. **Robert:** 100% yes. **Sonny:** No one would have blinked twice. **Robert:** People also just loved to shit on Eddie Bravo. He's his own worst enemy with some of these conspiracy theories and stuff but I don't think he's an entirely idiotic guy when it comes to jiu-jitsu. I think he has a lot of insight on jiu-jitsu. **Sonny:** Definitely. **Robert:** I don't think he is the greatest coach ever but he's definitely got some insights, he’s very creative. **Sonny:** Very creative without a doubt. **Robert:** Anyway so getting back to *The Third Option*, I think in that video basically what Eddie Bravo says is he says, "Look if you can't beat him on the feet, and you're having a hard time taking him down, what are you going to do next?" He says, "Pull guard." A lot of people shit on that, what he said there, but I think he's totally right. He's totally right. I was talking to Gary one time about pulling guard in MMA and he thinks of, he's actually, I've heard him say this in interviews too if I remember correctly where he says, "If you think about it, pulling guard into leg locks is the best way to pull guard because you pull right into a submission and on top of that if you don't get it, you get on top of the guy." This brings me to-- We talked a little bit about this before the podcast got started where it's funny that I think leg locks back in the day were more advanced in MMA actually than grappling. If you go back to the era before the Death Squad blew up, you go back to 2012 let's say, not that long ago, all things considered. **Sonny:** It’s tough to say not long ago or does it? **Robert:** Yes. I used to stay up to watch Dream and ONE Championship, I'll never forget- **Sonny:** Those were the days. **Robert:** Yes, they were great. **Sonny:** Simpler times. **Robert:** Yes. Oh geez. Well, there's still events happening but not many for sure. I remember when Imanari heel hooked Kevin Belingon. It was a ONE championship fight. That fight, I'll never forget that. I woke up, it was the morning of Comic-Con, and I was going to Comic-Con. Before I was going I was like, "I'm going to watch. I love Imanari so I want to see him fight." I got up at 4 AM to watch him fight. I watched it and I was like, "Fuck yes, Imanari is the man. Holy shit." Back then I do genuinely think that there was nobody in pure grappling at the level of Imanari and Palhares. I think those two were the best. I don't think anyone was at their level. There were other guys that were very skilled, but nobody was as good as those two in my opinion. I'm a very big Imanari fan. I genuinely think Imanari is one of the most creative innovators I would say in grappling history but definitely in leg lock history. The guy discovered so many things which are only now, the relevance of them are becoming known. What's really interesting about him though is that he would discover things which I think were actually brilliant, and then just stop doing them, and it's like, "Why? What happened? This was working." I don't know. I think he just probably wasn't organized about it but he was coming out with brilliant stuff. Back then leg locks in MMA seemed to be better than in pure grappling. I think the main reason why that is is cultural which I think comes down to a lot of major criticisms of leg locks have more to do with cultural outlook than they do with actual efficacy. Back then in the MMA world, leg locks, they maybe weren't the most popular thing but they weren't outright frowned upon whereas in jiu-jitsu not only was it considered bad, it was considered borderline unethical. I actually first got into lego locks because of MMA. Okay, that's not fully true. Basically what happened was I was a Gi athlete, I was focusing on a Gi, and I started to really get into leg locks and in order to keep practicing them, I actually fought MMA. I fought MMA- **Sonny:** You won with leg locks as well, yes? **Robert:** Yes. I had four fights. My first night I won by a very fast heel hook. I had no idea what I was doing. I won by-- I accidentally did some very good stuff. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Why not? That's the best way to do it I guess. **Robert:** Yes. It's taken played. I won two and I lost two, but even the two that I lost, if you Google you’ll find them on YouTube, they're still up, one of them I still I’m salty about. I think I should have gotten the decision. The reason I didn't get the decision is because I kept falling. It’s ironic. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do this. I kept falling back through leg locks. What you'll see in the fight is the guy never punches me hard. At no point do I get-- Out of four fights, I got punched hard one time. I was doing stuff I actually don't recommend people to do. I was diving for leg locks like a madman. I had one fight against the guy named Shaquan Moore, a very tough guy. I didn't finish him but I won the decision where I was literally just sitting on my bottom pulling guard, and I was going towards him and I was actually having a lot of success doing this. The key is to see, if anyone's curious and wants to watch my fights, I focused hard on not getting punched. I was like, "Okay, how can I mitigate strikes?" The one time I did get hit hard is because what happened was I got really eager to get the finish. It was my last fight which I lost my decision. I do think I deservedly lost the decision. I didn't get blown out of the water, but I definitely think the guy edged me out on points. It was near the end of the third round, and I knew he was up on points, and he hadn't really cracked me at any point, but he did a great job mitigating, keeping control, and regulating distance and stuff. He played a very cagey, intelligent game. In the third, I dived, I did like kind of Asami. I got his legs and I was like, "I'm going to get him." He cracked me real hard while I wasn't paying attention and then I was like, "Oh shit." Basically, I dipped on the position, and I was like, "Okay." I let him out because I didn't want to get hit again and then we just standed there, stood there rather, and then the fight ended and he got the decision there. I think he deserved it. Anyway, the point is other than that one slip up I never really got hit very hard because I focused very hard on, "If I'm going to go for these, I need to make sure that I keep him away from me." I talked about this earlier, I don't need to reiterate it. Just one quick thing is I only stopped doing it in MMA because I saw an avenue for using leg locks. I was very interested in leg locks. I was very curious about them I thought they were cool. NoGi started to gain some popularity so I was like, "Oh, maybe I don't need to do these fights anymore to do this I can just go in a tournament instead." I shifted to that yes. **Sonny:** If you haven't watched Imanari's fights, which probably if you're listening to this, I imagine you probably have because- \[laughter\] **Sonny:** -you got to be pretty into it. Yes, and there's so many creative things that he did over the years it's a treat to go back and just watch. Even in his losses he is just one of those entertaining guys that normally win spectacularly or lose spectacularly. There's no in-between. I actually did a breakdown video on guard pulling in MMA, and one of the things that I bring up in that is that if you want to do it successfully, you have to close the distance in one way or another. I guess borrowing an Imanari role, you've got to close the distance and that's entering into a clinch, or I actually think that the best way to do it is to be shooting in onto a double leg and then [pulling into a half guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) like Damian Maia would do. If you are going to have to pull guard, I'd say that, in my opinion, that's the best way to do it which also then means that to practice your guard pulling, you're actually going to have to be practicing your wrestling, practicing your double legs, because you're still going to be able to take a good shot to get in on the hips. Even if you want to pull guard, you should have good wrestling. Is that something you agree or disagree with that? **Robert:** It's funny, I literally say verbatim, the same exact thing on the instructional. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Great minds think alike then. **Robert:** Yes. It's so funny because everybody fixates on the rolling entries, the Imanari rolls, the Ryan Hall rolls. They're good, they can work, but I definitely think shooting for doubles or even singles, and then off of the failed attempt-- Like Poirier's a huge percentage of his entries was he would go for a double, he would put the guy against the cage and he's trying to get the double but the guy would defend so he says, "Fuck it. I'm going to go for a leg lock." He sits back goes for the leg lock and usually gets it. I totally agree. This aspect of closing the distance, what's so key about it is that what it enables you to do is proactively force body contact in such a way that-- Whenever we're grappling in MMA, we have a different consideration that we still have it in regular grappling, but not as much. The guy doesn't need to grapple you. In pure grappling there's a lot of stalling, but they're supposed to be engaging you. In pure grappling, hypothetically, this doesn't always play out but how it's supposed to work is if I pull guard, the onus is on you to engage me. That's how it's supposed to work it doesn't always work like that, but it's how it's supposed to work. In MMA, that's not true whatsoever you sit on your butt, the guy has no need to engage you. The onus is on you. If you want to grapple you have to make him grapple so what you have to do is you have to find a way to bridge the distance so that you can proactively force body contact which you can force grappling exchanges. The issue with rolling entries, it's not that they're bad because I talk about them and I do think they can be used well, the big issue is that they're mainly reactive it's really hard to proactively force rolling entries. Every time people try to practically force them, they just wind up looking dumb, and they just don't work that well. A notable example is-- Who was it? Rory McDonald's versus Stephen Thompson was it? **Sonny:** Yes, I remember that one. I was pretty hyped for that fight. That was pretty not very memorable in the end. **Robert:** Fair enough. Do you remember that rolling entry? **Sonny:** Yes, Rory went for the rolling entries, but yes. **Robert:** It was when Stephen was backing up so it's so hard to get it under those situations. The best place to get it is when you bridge the distance especially when you're going for a takedown. When you create that kind of a threat then he defends it then you can pull it to the legs. That's the best way to do it. **Sonny:** Where would you class then the Ryan Hall, Gray Maynard fight in that one? Is that a good example of that as well? **Robert:** Yes, that's a really good example to illustrate my point. If you watch that fight so many times Ryan tries to get the rolling entry and Gray will run away. That or rather he'll back it up. Then the best few times Ryan gets in on Gray's legs, you'll see it's because Gray is going towards him. Gray starts to walk towards him and that's when Ryan gets him. Yes, that fight was also, I would say I found that terrible. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Look up Imanari matches before going back to look those ones up this year. **Robert:** Yes, that one was just awful. It's not entertaining whatsoever. **Sonny:** Give some data let's put it like that \[laughs\] **Robert:** Definitely a useful fight, yes, for sure. **Sonny:** I want to talk then about Garry Tonon. We're talking about shooting the double. I can't remember the guy's name, who he fought. Shooting for the single leg, he ducks under, pulls guard into a heel hook, gets the tap. To me, that is just a masterful bit of shoot boxing, just striking to wrestling to submission attacks it's just such a very masterful fight. He has run into problems with his leg locks in some of his other fights, run into problems. I think it was his second one he fought the Indian 10th Planet guy. I thought he had his heels snapping or breaking and the guy gets out. Even though in the last fight, the guy seemed pretty wildly, pretty skilled and it seemed like he couldn't rely on those heel hooks as much as he could in say, submission grappling where you'd think if Garry gets you in that position, if he got even those guys in this position in a ADCC rules match probably you'd expect Garry to get the finish but there's something about MMA if it's the gloves, if it's the extra sweat or something that it seemed like they weren't as reliable as they should be, as they normally are. What's your thoughts on that then? **Robert:** I've seen all of these fights obviously. **Sonny:** Sure **Robert:** I'll take it one at a time so the first one is your Yoshiki Nakahara that's the ideal way to use leg locks. **Sonny:** I agree that is an ideal. If anyone I know did that, yes it would be amazing. **Robert:** Yes, He goes for the takedown, and then when the guy defends, he goes for the leg lock, and yes beautiful execution yes pretty perfect. Yoshiki actually came to train with us. He wanted to learn leg lock defense. I rolled with him at the time. Really nice guy. I think it's always cool when people do that. They recognize they have an area of weakness, and they go to mitigate it with somebody who just beat them with it. Yes, so it was cool of him. Then the second one is Rahul Raju. Actually, I'll talk about the Koyomi Matsushima fight that's the other Japanese guy who he fought. That's an interesting one to compare to the Yoshiki Nakahara fight because there's a lot of similarities but there are some key differences. The first big difference is that Koyomi definitely came better prepared, technically speaking to defend. Koyomi had Satoru Kitaoka in his corner, who is a real innovator of leg locks back in the day. I still love to study Kitaoka. I think he also trained with Imanari leading up to the fight. He definitely came very prepared, technically to defend and you can see it Koyomi was doing very intelligent defense. I think in that fight, the reason why Garry couldn't get the finish simply was a matter of Koyomi preparing himself very well defensively, but the reality is Garry was able then to get on top pass the guard. Garry won the fight based on that you know what I mean. The leg locks I don't remember if he ever got on top from the leg lock threat. I honestly don't recall but sometimes it just doesn't come through. A big difference when you look in those fights-- Another thing is Garry, in the Yoshiki Nakahara fight, he pulls into a far hip Ashi and he rolls through to an outside Ashi. In that Koyomi Matsushima fight, he pulls into a diagonal Ashi. Usually, that’s okay, you can still get the roll to the outside Ashi to get the break, but it can be hard if the guy's very prepared defensively and Koyomi definitely was. He did all the right things defensively and so, yes, there is a slim margin for errors. I also think the gloves as you said, I do think that plays a part. That is another big factor where your gripping has to be very very good, has to be very on point. Anyways, the Rahul Raju fight, that fight definitely Gary, the trick is, Gary had a hard time getting him to tap. I think he's still broken if I remember correctly. I think he broke Rahul. **Sonny:** Yes. It's been like apologies to all these guys for not remembering a nice show and it's been a while since I've watched that so I'm just going from memory, but I remember I'm like, "Damn, this guy's legs look like rubber candle." He defended, got out, didn't tap but I do remember having that feeling of like, "Oh, is that not working, is the adrenaline or--?" **Robert:** Yes. I think there was a lot of adrenaline but fight I can definitely say Gary used the leg locks to get on top. After the failed leg lock attempts, he would get on top with it which is I think the best way to use it. I forget. I don't remember if I asked Gary about this, I don't remember if I did, but for some reason, I think I remember I did and Gary told me that he heard pops. I think so. Those were very notably brutal. Rahul is fighting, I think he actually fought last night- **Sonny:** Oh wow. **Robert:** at ONE. He's still clearly healthy. **Sonny:** Yes. I made all respect to him as well for getting there- **Robert:** Yes, for sure. **Sonny:** -and surviving and putting up a decent fight too. Go on, sorry. **Robert:** Sorry, just to add. That's what I was getting at with why I said I think Gary is a really, I think he's the best guy for leg locks in MMA. I think probably ever, to be honest because what he's doing is he's not just using it for the finish. Against Rahul, he couldn't get the tap, fuck it, passes guard. He turned that on its head. Instead of fucking try like, "Oh, fuck it," passes the guard. **Sonny:** That's a really interesting way of looking at it and I think it's probably correct in that even though that he's only working with six fights still such so early on. With all that expectation that he does have so many leg lock finishes in his grappling career that I've been thinking, "Oh, if he gets someone in that position, it should be dead to rights that he finishes him." From the other perspective, it is, "Well, he didn't finish but he still used the leg locks to get on top." Obviously having such a threat behind him with that is going to make it easier to work those other elements of his game because people they don't want to be in his guard or they don't want to sit on top probably trying to go for grant and pound if they’re concerned about him snatching hold of the leg so he still has that advantage. One thing actually again I thought of going back to the brakes on the pops when you're talking about twisting. Probably on the aside, but I can't let it go. If you get a pop and they tap, does the pop become a break? **Robert:** I don’t know. **Sonny:** I heard a pop and he taps so does that make it a break? **Robert:** Well, the thing is, I guess when we were talking about brakes, we're dealing with speculation. **Sonny:** Of course because that’s not like, "Until you get an x-ray how are these guys calling it a break?" That was my brain. After the match they go, "Oh yes, I’m broken." I’m like, "Wait until he gets the MRI mate." Like, "Come on." \[laughter\] **Robert:** Yes, for sure. No, 100%. It's a tricky thing. One time Danaher told us his story about we're talking about the paradox of this, we're trying to practice braking mechanics, but we don't actually want to hurt each other. The only way you could really know is by you’re right, getting an MRI. One time, Danaher told us he said, "Don't rely on any mechanics unless you've seen it definitely break two people. I’ve seen it, done more than once, and you can rely on the mechanics." I was talking to a friend at training yesterday he was a former wrestler, and he's like, "Yes, why does it NoGi jiu-jitsu become a high school sport?" I was like, "Okay, it's because, imagine just the visual image of a 14-year-old with like a snapped ACL lying in a gymnasium locker room, sorry, or a gymnasium floor just screaming." **Sonny:** It’s not going to happen. **Robert:** The school would not fund that. **Sonny:** Well, that's why wrestling is the perfect thing you guys got over there, folkstyle wrestling where it did evolve from catch wrestling, taking out the submissions so people could perform it, and then I know that they've got a lot of potentially dangerous calls from high school wrestling where they take some things out and keep it safe. I think it's because they've taken those submissions out that it is able to work in a school environment and frankly, I think everyone talks about getting jiu-jitsu in schools over here in Australia and it’s like, "Man, it's the same thing." **Robert:** Yes, it’s tough. **Sonny:** There's no way that, you could do some things but it's not going to take off like a big thing because there's just too many headaches involved with submissions whereas wrestling it's like, "Well, hey." It's just like rugby scrum kind of. It's far more palatable than anything if it could go wrong in jiu-jitsu. **Robert:** Yes. Well, it's funny because I think that wrestling is statistically more dangerous injury-wise. **Sonny:** Than jiu-jitsu? **Robert:** Yes. **Sonny:** It could be, it could be. **Robert:** Just from my own personal-- I shouldn't have said statistically too bad because I don’t know the statistics. **Sonny:** Sure. **Robert:** My own personal anecdotes I've seen many more injuries from wrestling than jiu-jitsu. For myself, I can say for instance I have had many more injuries from wrestling than I've ever had from leg locks. The point is that in wrestling the goal is not to break the guy's leg because jiu-jitsu it is. **Sonny:** That’s it. Those visuals count for points on the sideline- **Robert:** Yes. No, 100%. **Sonny:** -or just anyone trying to sell it to a school admin. That is going to matter what the goal is. **Robert:** Yes. **Sonny:** Then going into that specialization then of that wrestling or jiu-jitsu where to spend the time, we know that Gary was a wrestler, goes into jiu-jitsu, adds striking into the mix and he’s still, I look forward to every one of his fights now watching him, paying close attention just to see where this development of the modern submission grappling game can go in MMA. He's got to be at the forefront of it. You get someone coming in saying, "Fresh, brand new," how much specialization then would you put on that leg locks? Or is it really as we've discussed in just those key areas that you've talked about? I guess, in what order of hierarchy would you put that in? **Robert:** The most important things for MMA first and foremost would be striking offense and defense. Personally, this is a hot topic of mine, a lot of grapplers will get mad at me, but I think striking is the single most important thing in MMA because I think that if you have-- It's debatable. A lot of people say wrestling and I think there's some validity to that but fair enough. I think that wrestling defense if you have solid wrestling defense, striking seems to be firmer. **Sonny:** Can be very hard to take someone down who's got a good single leg defense, the no shoes on, and if they get good at using the cage, taking someone down who wants to just avoid it to strike can be very difficult. **Robert:** Yes. I would say-- Anyway, we don't have to rank the first two because there's a debate there but I would say striking and then wrestling, or just takedowns, those two areas, To be honest, I would honestly rank leg locks right beneath those two. I would rank them right beneath those two. We're talking about skills from the outset of a match because you could say, I would argue back control. Pinning is more important than leg locks, but hat's not the outset of a match. I would rank that above, but if we're talking about things that you're going to do at the beginning of a match, I would say striking, takedowns, leg locks. In my opinion, those are your best three options. If you get really good at-- Another point, I don't even talk about this point on the instructional because I don't think it's too important, but I don't want people to fixate on this. I think it's a mistake to ever fixate too much on trying to-- I used to try to do this, metagame the community where I'd be like, "What are people not good at?" There was a point to doing that initially when the squad came up, but it's really hard to do that now in grappling. In MMA, to be honest, can get away with-- Palhares was a master at two things. To be honest, he doesn't have sophisticated skills in certain leg locking areas. For instance, his heel exposure strategies aren't super sophisticated, but in MMA, you don't really need that, that much. Palhares, for instance, was an absolute master at entering the legs and breaking people, maybe the best ever at that with an outside heel hook, specifically an outside heel hook, psychotically good. The point is if you're a grappler and you're looking to do leg locks, I think a large percentage of your time has to be on heel exposure strategies. Whereas in MMA, it's just not as important. It's just not- **Sonny:** Yes. **Robert:** -because guys don't know how to hide their heel as much. Now, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn that because what happens if you go get somebody who does know how to do that? You got to learn to deal with it, but you don't need to invest as much time. Training time has always been like you're playing the stock market, which is on everybody's mind nowadays. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** I was trying to think of how I could work a joke. **Robert:** Yes, the GameStop-- **Sonny:** Yes, GameStop somehow, I don't know, I'll see what I come out with. \[chuckles\] **Robert:** Yes. I view it is like playing the stock market, where you don't really know where-- There was hedge fund managers they were expecting that stock to go down in value to make money, and then it, obviously, didn't. It's similar with-- Imagine if you don't invest any time into, just an analogy, you invest no time into leg locks, but then maybe you're in a fight where it really could have been valuable for you or maybe you invest too much time in-- Let's say, you invest hours of time into, something that I love to shit on because it's super popular, and I think barely ever works is just the traditional armbar from the closed guard. **Sonny:** Yes, I'd agree with you. **Robert:** Just the way people do it most of the time it just doesn't work. **Sonny:** Imagine to get your guard passed in MMA pretty much. **Robert:** Yes, and also you're on bottom and you're ineffectively throwing your legs up and the guy's punching you in the face. **Sonny:** It's-- Yes. **Robert:** It's stupid. It can work, but it's a low percentage. **Sonny:** Of course, it can work, but I'd probably say keep them tight so you're not getting punched in the face first. Then if they are posturing up, feet on hips trying to kick them away or throwing the legs up just you could-- Geez. \[laughs\] **Robert:** Anyway, yes, I think you get what I'm saying. **Sonny:** Yes. I think what you're saying is we got to take leg locks to the moon really. **Robert:** Well, yes. \[laughter\] **Robert:** Yes, there you go, that was really good. \[laughter\] **Robert:** Yes, 100%. **Sonny:** I think that's pretty much covered I think most of the things we wanted to get through in this discussion. Maybe what are some all-time matches or leg locks for leg locks in MMA aside from the ones that we've discussed if you haven't seen that Gary Tonon one? I'd animated it. I think it's free on the ONE FC thing, so definitely check that out. What are some other maybe some hidden gems that you could think of that people could go and check out to see leg locks in MMA in action? **Robert:** Yes. I think that one of my favorites ever is Palhares versus David Branch. That's a really, really good one. Very, very significant match in grappling history too because Danaher was actually in David Branch's corner. Definitely, very closely studied the outcome of that fight because Palhares got the heel hook on Branch. A lot of his early outside heel hook stuff, he studied Palhares very intensively. Everyone should ensure-- **Sonny:** As they would, yes, of course. **Robert:** That was very good at what he was doing, which I find very interesting because it's almost like he doesn't seem like the brightest character. It's like how did he figure this stuff out. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** He does seem like the brute strength reap and tear kind of guy too, but hey, he obviously figured it out. **Robert:** Yes, there was real I think technical refinement to what he was doing. Anyway, that one is really, really good. Another good one, Imanari versus Hiroshi Umemura. The thing is it's tough because that fight I'm reluctant to mention it because I don't think people are going to be able to find it very easily because that's an old Deep-- It's called Deep-- **Sonny:** Deep. Yes, Deep and ZST ones that he fought on, they're tough to get. **Robert:** Yes. A good ZST one you could watch is his tag team fight with Takumi Yano. It's great one. **Sonny:** Yes, exactly. That is classic. **Robert:** That one is not really even MMA, to be honest. It's sort of MMA. **Sonny:** I'd wonder if there's bits of work there or if they had-- **Robert:** Yes, I think probably. **Sonny:** You never know with that if they were-- **Robert:** Most likely. It's funny because that kneebar he gets at the end is definitely a real kneebar. It was very brutal. \[chuckles\] **Sonny:** You just don't know what they had agreed to. It could be 100% real. I don't know. It's a tag team match, two grapplers against two strikers in Japan. Who knows? **Robert:** It's a very ridiculous fight, but it's interesting. It is on YouTube for free. I generally would just say watch Gary, watch Rousimar, watch Imanari, watch Marcin Held, watch Ryan Hall. There's a lot of other guys you can watch, but those are the central-- **Sonny:** Those are the main guys, right? **Robert:** Yes, they're the main guys I would recommend. There's so many other guys. I'd say Marcin Held. I would say a lot of other Polish guys like Marcin Held. I criticize one of Ian Entwistle's fights but he's also done very well before. His fight against Anthony Birchak was a very, very good fight. That's a really good use of leg locks in MMA. Definitely has his moments, Paul Sass is another one, Paul Sass. **Sonny:** Yes, Paul Sass. One of the best guard pullers ever with something like-- Who knows how many triangle victories he got? **Robert:** Here's a fun fact about Paul Sass. **Sonny:** Please, yes. **Robert:** I was a massive fan of Paul Sass. I thought his game was so good. I did a seminar in Liverpool at Paul Sass's academy. He doesn't own it. It's where he trains. **Sonny:** Kaobon or something like that? **Robert:** No, NextGen MMA. I was talking to the owner of NextGen MMA who was Paul Sass's coach. I said, "Whatever happened to Paul? Why doesn't he fight anymore?" He said, "Paul got a job working in finance making a ton of money and just said, "Fuck this.'" \[laughter\] **Robert:** I was like, "All right, that's totally fair." **Sonny:** That's definitely fair. It seems fitting that he would because he was such a unique [fighter as well in that guard pulling,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) and that he only ever won by triangles and heel hooks. I think that was it. **Robert:** He had one decision win. **Sonny:** He had that heel hook against Michael Johnson, right? **Robert:** Yes, that was an awesome one. He had one decision win. Yes, but that was the only one on that. I've never seen the decision win. I just know it happened, but, yes, all triangles and heel hooks other than that. **Sonny:** Amazing. **Robert:** Definitely one of the best guard pullers in MMA history, an absolute legend of a guy. **Sonny:** Without a doubt. What about any up and comings? Is there anyone that comes to mind, a leg locker that--? Maybe it's the person you mentioned you were training before or just anyone under the radar that maybe we could keep an eye on if we want to keep savvy in the leg lock game in MMA? **Robert:** Not anyone that's currently fighting, but one of my teammates Damian Anderson he has been training a lot with Gary doing the MMA drills and Damian is a very, very high-level leg locker, especially with outside heel hooks. Outside heel hooks, I would say, are his specialty. In my opinion, legitimately one of the best outside Ashi and outside heel hook practitioners out there. Very, very solid at that and he seems to be shifting his focus, mainly to MMA. I think that once he fights there will be a lot of really interesting outside heel hooks on display. Yes, he'll finish most people with that, but he's not just focusing on that. One thing that Danaher does is when he works with the guys is they're working on MMA. All the arts integrated together. Gary's not just doing jiu-jitsu practice and then hitting a punching bag, and then \[laughs\] they're integrating it all together. I've no doubt, I think Damien will do very well because he's directly under Danaher and Gary, so he's going to do well. **Sonny:** That would make me excited to watch him. Definitely. I just remembered the final question of scrimmage wrestling. Scrimmage wrestling is something I hear about. What is it? From what I understand that does seem something that would work into MMA and maybe leg locking in MMA as well, right? **Robert:** Well, you're going to hate my answer. My answer is I actually don't know what the definition is. **Sonny:** That's okay. It seems I'm trying to get a definition and I'm like-- My vague one is wrestling up from the bottom. **Robert:** Okay, that might be what it is. I'll tell you what the scrimmage wrestling drill is. Scrimmage wrestling drill is we start from a broken down single leg and you have to wrestle up from that. That's the scrimmage wrestling drill. I have never really asked what is the definition of this. I just know and I guess, I've seen a lot of other-- Danaher is always trying to integrate wrestling with-- You have to modify it. You can't just copy and paste it. For instance, very low single legs, and wrestling are much more viable because man, that shoe really catches when you grab the ankle, there's a real surface it catches right. Grappling that is not viable, the foots going to slip out. You can't do that as easily. You got to modify it. Similarly, let's say I shoot a single leg and I stand up with it and I just look for the takedown but I'm struggling to get it but I don't account for submission threats, you can get counter because in wrestling those threats are illegal, obviously. You can't keep hitting somebody in wrestling, you can't rolling for somebody in wrestling. **Sonny:** Used to be able to, because-- what was-- I'm blanking now, Foxcatcher, the '92 Atlanta. Was it '92 Atlanta Olympics? Damn, I've gotten terrible with dates and names, but he's going up against the Turkish guy. Is it Mark? Mark Schultz. Mark Schultz. Yes. He's going up against him and he breaks a guy's arm in the Olympics. **Robert:** Oh, wow, there you go. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Now it's banned. It's definitely banned. **Robert:** Okay, so there you go, you can't do that in your wrestling, but in jiu-jitsu, obviously, super valid counter. You've got to take that into account. You've got to factor that in. When Danaher is coaching wrestling, he's always thinking about that thing. A lot of what you're going to see at an up and comer, Damien, for instance, or Gary in future fights is going be the integration of different arts. Yes, that's, I think, a very valuable insight that I gained watching him coach those guys. Yes. **Sonny:** Okay, that's, that's good. I'll keep thinking about and looking out for that thing in the future as well. Hey, Robert, thanks so much for your time. It was great to catch up and obviously if people want to get a hold of that leg locks in MMA instructional and get in touch with you, what should they do to get their hands on that? **Robert:** The instructional is just on my website, it's [Robert Degle Online](https://robertdeglebjjonline.teachable.com/ "robertdeglebjjonline.com"). So robertD-E-G-L-E-bjjonline.com. It's on there, and if you want you can follow me on Instagram. Same thing, Robert D-E-G-L-E BJJ. Also, I have a YouTube channel which I haven't been putting up as much stuff, to be honest, because I've been pretty busy lately, but-- **Sonny:** As we all are. As we all are, it's crazy times. **Robert:** Yes. Hopefully, I will get back to YouTube because I actually enjoy YouTube more than Instagram. **Sonny:** I think it is better, it's longer-lasting anyway. It just reminded me there're some clips from the instructional app on there, is that right? **Robert:** Yes, there's two. Yes, there's two. I have two up. One on breaking mechanics, one on I talked about, so we didn't get to this on the podcast, but I think that breaking mechanics actually. There are some differences in MMA versus grappling. If you're curious about that, I have a video. **Sonny:** You have a video, yes nice. **Robert:** Yes, there's a video where I talk about that. I'll just say this. I think it's way easier to break somebody in MMA, it's so much easier to break people, as long as you're in a cage because you'll hit the cage wall. That helps things immensely. **Sonny:** No rolling out of bounds and-- **Robert:** Yes, you can't, it's impossible. \[chuckles\] I had a grappling match in a cage and we hit the cage and I had the lock. I just thought to myself, "Oh, man, I feel so bad." \[laughter\] **Robert:** I was like "Really it was the cage that fucked this guy , we hit it and he tapped. \[laughter\] **Sonny:** Two points in a standoff are gone. **Robert:** Yes, yes, no, no. **Sonny:** Two gone. **Robert:** You can check me out on YouTube as well. **Sonny:** Awesome. Awesome. Robert, thanks so much for your time mate. **Robert:** Thanks for having me. **Sonny:** Yes, be in touch. Stay in touch again in the future. It's been a good chat and yes, I appreciate it very much. **Robert:** No worries. ![Robert Degle on Leg Locks in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_degle4_promo1-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_degle4_promo1 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/) **Published:** May 5, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/history_catch_wrestling-1024x576.jpg "History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon › Sonny Brown")I talk to Jake Shannon who is the founder of [Scientific Wrestling](http://www.scientificwrestling.com "http://www.scientificwrestling.com") and The King of Catch Wrestling Tournaments. We discuss how the history of catch wrestling and submission grappling can trace its roots back to bored English miners who loved to gamble, how Japanese MMA emerged out of the theatrical and [entertainment-driven](https://www.sonnybrown.net/down-under-danaher-peurto-rico-pro-grappling-craig-jones-bjj/ "Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment With Craig Jones BJJ") world of professional Wrestling. The moment a quirky, professional wrestler bested the most famous grappling dynasty in all of fight sports and how that professional wrestling training helped him do it and could still even be used today in your own training practice. Jake has also authored the best selling book 'Say, Uncle!: Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling and the Roots of Ultimate Fighting, Pro-Wrestling, & Modern Grappling' and ghostwrote Billy Robinson's memoir titled 'Physical Chess: My Life in Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling" and was also the assistant coach to Billy Robinson, 2007 - 2014 and now has two instructions out on BJJ Fanatics covering catch wrestling submissions and takedowns. ### LIsten to the Jake Shannon Interview ### YouTube #### The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon **Sonny Brown:** Jake, many people when they talk about how they got into Mixed Martial Arts, it's they've seen UFC 2 on videotape. That's how they learned about the sport. That's what inspired them to get into it. You have to be one of the few people who can actually say that you were their live at UFC 2. Is that right? **Jake Shannon:** Yes. 1994, there was a Bruce Lee movie that came out at around then, Jason Scott Lee. I was very into that. I just got my ass kicked by my roommate who's a judo guy, a Taekwondo Black Belt. I thought I was going to be tough like Bruce Lee and challenge my buddy in the backyard. He was a Judo Green Belt. Man, he just threw me all over the place. I sucked the world. I had never experienced grappling. He and I started going to the Boulder Gym Club. Anyway, there was a flyer for UFC 2 and I was like, "Oh my God, we have to go. This is so crazy." We actually go. I lucked out. If you get that old UFC 2 footage, there's a couple of scenes where I'm waving to the camera, but I'm sitting right behind the Gracie's, in fact, which was neat. I've been following this sport and mostly practicing grappling. I never did MMA. When I started in '94, I was probably, in addition to one of the first people to see the UFC alive, I was probably one of the first people to practice Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Colorado, and for that matter, probably the United States. I would pretty much say Colorado because there was nobody here doing it. Pedro Sauer was up in Salt Lake at the time, so we'd fly him down and Ricardo Miguel, these guides. Back in '94, '95, '96, there was no real Naga, there was no real Grapplers Quest, there's no Fight 2 Win. There weren't these opportunities like these young guys have today, where you could go in and you could just enter tournaments until you start killing it. I got a little burned out, to be honest. Instead of going into MMA, because there was really no opportunities for a young guy that was not connected myself. I went into pro wrestling. That was a whole other weird, bizarre detour, but it was what led me eventually to catch wrestling because I never really did like-- I thought pro wrestling was fun, but I've always liked grappling. Grappling is the thing that I've always done. I've always been drawn to it since I was really young. All the guys in pro wrestling were always like, "Man, you need to learn about Lou Thesz, man. He likes all the shit you like. You need to learn about Karl Gotch and Verne Gagne, and these other guys that were shooter pro wrestler types." Right around that time, right around '99 and 2000, Sakuraba came out. I was training at a Japanese style pro wrestling dojo up in Northern California. I was put on by a couple of the gaijin wrestlers from Pro Wrestling Noah at the time, Michael Modest and Donovan Morgan school. They're Pro Wrestling Iron or pro wrestling Tetsuo. That was right when Sakuraba came through. Again, I've been around for all these different phases of this sport from the very beginning so it's really interesting to see the evolution. Back then in 2000 to say that you, first of all, didn't need Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to succeed in MMA, yet let alone that pro wrestling would be beating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. People looked at you like you were a flat Earther. It was the most preposterous, you would have lost, but here was Sakuraba doing it and repeating the experiment over and over and over and over in such convincing passion. I just happened to be in a very lucky position and that's really when I started my research. It's funny, it's actually MMA that brought me to catch wrestling, but it was by a way of pro wrestling because I couldn't get into MMA. \[laughs\] **Sonny:** Which is also funny because I think if we actually look at where MMA comes from and where pro wrestling comes from, if we go back to the very beginning, it actually is from catch wrestling. I think even freestyle wrestling as well and folkstyle wrestling, that all has their roots in catch wrestling. Is that correct? **Jake:** Yes. The arguments can definitely be made for that. You could even make the argument that's not really popular in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu circles, but I think it's a defensible historical, that without catch wrestling, BJJ wouldn't exist in the way it is. In fact, I think it's my opinion, that guard work-- What's the traditional story that Maeda went to Brazil, taught the Gracie clan, yadda yadda, right? Well, Conde Coma crafted his skill in catch wrestling tournaments against catch wrestlers. It's my contention that that's where he learned how to be a bottom player, how to actually be offensive. It may not necessarily be orthodox, but I think it's a defensible position to say that even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu owes its origins to catch wrestling. It's not controversial. The first Olympics, you know how when say, the Olympics first went to Korea, they allowed Taekwondo as an Olympic sport. Well, in the 1904 Olympics, it was in London. Their sport that they entered was Amateur Catch-As-Catch-Can , which they dropped the name and called it Freestyle. Freestyle, BJJ, obviously pro wrestling, that's not even really controversial. You could definitely say MMA through the Japanese route because you can go back to the Inoki, Muhammad Ali fight. That was largely Inoki's pushing and whatnot, the Japanese promoter, but all the proto-MMA that existed. Some people include Pancrase and say that Pancrase opened its doors first before UFC. I think they held their first show a month or something before UFC. The people forget that the UWFi had a pay-per-view called Shoot Wrestling Real and that preceded the UFC. I honestly believe that it was the UWFi's which is where Billy Robinson trained Sakuraba ironically enough. I think that that pay-per-view because all the footage from the UWFi was filmed in Japan, and they had sellout. They were selling out like Korakuen Hall and all these fight venues back in the '80s with UWFi. I think that it's fair to say that Shoot Wrestling is Real or Shoot Fighting, I think it's Shoot Wrestling is Real. That pay-per-view in the early '90s was really what showed probably Rorion and Royce, "Hey, why don't we do that? Let's do it on pay-per-view and all that kind of stuff in the early '90s." Because it was pretty successful that-- Anyway, catch-as-catch-can is very interesting because it's totally obscure, nobody really knows what the hell it is but all the roads go back to it funny enough. **Sonny:** Yes, because that's how I became interested in it, is just obviously start doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I'd never really heard of catch, even though I guess you could say Ken Shamrock, in his early days, was catch. When I start reading about the history, I'm just fascinated that there's this whole other lineage and tree that the more I read about it, the deeper it goes. Just recently, I was reading that Maeda competed in, I think it was London World Catch Championships at some point and came second or something or semi-finals, something like that. I'd never heard that before. I think it's a probably unique part of the story that might need to be told, or it should be more common knowledge at least. I find that stuff fascinating. The evolution then of pro wrestling, is it right that they were just-- It was the catch wrestlers that originated before the establishment of judo's Kodokan. Then they start the catch wrestling but then they realize that, "Hey, if we start to predetermine the outcomes, people get less injured, we can put on more exciting bouts, we can put on more bouts and then that just slowly morphs into pro wrestling." Is that how that evolution happened? **Jake:** It's sort of. There were some key players. If you think about, what is the word professional mean? What does that mean and why do people put that term and connect it to wrestling? Why is it connected to catch-as-catch-can? Well, catch wrestling has almost always been about money. Sometimes there was honour involved, but largely, it came about in an era when there was not Zoom. There wasn't Xbox, or Playstation, or virtual reality or Tinder or Facebook or Instagram or any of that shit. They didn't even have TV and they were all really poor. My point is this, people were really hungry. The era in which catch came about was in the early-mid 1800s in the northern parts of England and I would also say Ireland, because of most those early catch wrestlers names . I'm fairly certain that because the Irish were probably doing something similar to this. There's an interesting amalgam and an evolution to it all. Anyway, a lot of these early guys, what they were doing in, they were the Irish coal miners, up in the north of England and in those territories. After a long day at work, and Billy Robinson would tell me these stories, that what those Irish miners got was one meal a day. It was toast with an egg and some beans. I mean you went and picked coal, hunched over in a tunnel all day and then when they were done with that, because they were so desperate and bored, they would bet on anything. They used to bet if you could jump into those giant wooden barrels. They would make bets if you could jump in or out of barrels. They would do all kinds of stuff because they were bored. One of the things they started doing was fighting and wrestling and because a lot of these guys had to go back to work the next day. They weren't doing the bare-knuckle stuff for the punching and kicking because they needed to use their hands and they couldn't have their-- They couldn't get cuts back then, you’d die of an infection. You could die of gangrene poisoning easily. They started doing these more rough and tumble matches but back when it started, it was illegal because to wrestle on the ground itself was forbidden. That was a big taboo, that's like men don't do that. That's for--Some of these poor people didn't give a shit, they would just fight till-- They were fighting them. They were wagering a week's wages. Those early professional wrestlers were the ones who were good enough that they made a living on bets. They were like we see professional poker players today. They quit their job and they just were alive betting on wrestling that. Well, what ended up happening is the publicans, the people that ran the pubs back then noticed everybody was gathering around watching these fights and they just were like, “Well shit, let's start to host them over the beer to sell them some beer and I can make some money.” Those ended up being kind of the first promoters. What ends up happening is there's a dynamic change. The catch wrestling in the early days was a binary contract. That was between the two wrestlers or the two camps and their backers. Well, when the promoter came in, that was a third party and that changed the dynamics because then the promoter started paying. It's 'who pays the Piper calls the tune’ and so, there was a lot of pressure then, whereas it used to be for bets and honour and this kind of thing where they wouldn't throw a fight. Sometimes the publican would be like, “Hey, let’s stretch this shit out a while, make it three or four fights.” You just can't win. You got to go back and forth. Do you know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes, makes sense. **Jake:** Just like any fighting sport, corruption starts to creep in when there's not proper oversight and those kind of that backstage or off-the-mat kind of dealings happening. It really changed when promoters and the money started getting really big. You look at the kind of what I call the 'Golden Age of Catch', 1910-ish, right around the turn of the century from the 19th into the 20th century. It was the biggest sport in the United States. It was bigger than baseball was, boxing was. It was huge. I think what ends up happening and it's funny because Ronda Rousey just did a tweet about Pro Wrestling and something about having all these big tough Pro Wrestlers egos deflated because they couldn't actually fight, and she just was being on a shoot about it. She's like, "Well, man." She followed it up with some very sound reasoning, which is what I've heard repeated from all kinds of different angles. That is what you also alluded to that, these guys are fighting everyone. You can't as an MMA athlete realistically fight and make a living. You have to start figuring out how to work matches because the money's there, people are going to pay, they want to see it. We've proven that they don't give a shit if it's real or not. They just want to see two people fight and enabled to do that where you're doing it every single week and you're not completely destroyed. You got to start working the matches. Boxing has had its works, but I will say this while 90% of the people went where the money is, which is human nature, there's always been a strong hardcore group that have maintained the integrity of catch-as-catch-can as it, and so that's why you can even today while our numbers are minuscule compared to something like BJJ. I'd say for every competent BJJ guy blue belt or above, for one catch wrestler, there's probably 10,000 blue belts or above for BJJ. We don't have those numbers and it is what it is. Despite that, there is a very small, almost like an oral tradition handed down, like aborigine to aborigine without writing it down or these techniques in this canon of strategy. I was lucky to get it from Billy, same guy that Sakuraba got it from, Billy got it from some guys up in Wigan. It is a truly interesting story, because you really have to go deeply into this subject because there is a lot of weird shit. There's a lot of stuff you're just like, "Oh my god, and then that leads you down this whole other avenue of study. It’s fascinating. It's kept me busy. **Sonny:** That's exactly what I'm finding, so many little rabbit holes that you just keep going down that just- **Jake:** This is the history, wait till you get to technique. I would guess off the top of my head probably seven or eight different variations of a double wrestler that I've heard from Tech's wrestlers and that’s not even the double wrestlers from Jiu-Jitsu and stuff. It is deep man. It’s like martial arts. The cool thing is the catch happened at a time when there was a lot of photography and a lot of book publishing. You can at least find a lot of these. **Sonny:** That's one of the things that turned me on to is, when you see these old photos of like, “Oh, I know this move, I know this move.” **Jake:** There's nothing new ever. **Sonny:** Exactly. It’s like, “I learnt that one last week and here it is from just years ago.” \[laughter\] **Sonny:** It's interesting. **Jake:** Or you think you invented it, that’s the worst. When you're like, “Oh, fuck, I got this,” and then you crack this book and you’re like, "Motherfucker, Goddamit! " That's the truth. People have been wrestling since day one, since day one, when somebody had a piece of meat or a major property or some and the other guy wanted it, you had to wrestle. That was like-- You can imagine them, millions of permutations people have gone through, it's just how many times and rediscover. That's the thing that's interesting to me. **Sonny:** Well, that's one thing whenever I try and mention to someone, like, "Oh, wow, catch wrestling goes back to 1900s or 1870." Whenever it is exactly, is that the first thing someone will always respond with is, "It goes back to as old as time itself. I think it's on hieroglyphs in the Egyptian walls. It goes back a long time, but there is something special about tracing that lineage back to this particular time in England that we have the history recorded. That every other grappling sport seems to value being able to trace it back so much and it’s like, there's this point at time in England that we can say for sure, this is where something definitely happened. **Jake:** It's funny that you mentioned lineage. I don't mean to step on your words, but when you mentioned lineage, it's so funny because for me personally, I don't put a lot of weight in lineage. I look at each individual wrestler because there's a lot of guys that weren't for Billy Robinson, that wanted Sakuraba. You know what I mean? That's not to say there are a lot of amazing guys that learn from it but my point is, is that I'm fascinated by the history. In addition to, I'm even more obsessed with the actual sport, the technique and the strategy, but the history is fascinating. I do find that a lot of people get hung up, because they tend to bring Eastern or maybe even Japanese sensibility of lineage because those are very command and control. There's rank, there's belts. It's kind of militaristic, you'll lose to your sensei. Wrestling is kind of like, "I don't give a fuck about this unless it's a goal. If it's a goal, know that I'm good. Again, it's like going back to the money and it's like, I don't even care about winning if you pay me. **Sonny:** I like it. **Jake:** It's just a different approach. It is a completely different approach and I do think that sometimes-- I study business, I really love it but probably it’s why I'm biased looking at the business side of business well. I have to hand it to Rorion, really, because from a marketing standpoint, the tables have completely flipped. Everybody knows of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It's so baffling for me. I ended up moving to San Francisco in ‘94 or ‘95 when I graduated because there was no Jiu-Jitsu. I went and trained with Karl and Gracie in San Francisco, and then a very short while after that with Ralphs gym opened and Kurt Osiander . I really never took a class with Kurt Osiander was running the classes, but you couldn't find anything here. I had to move like five states away. I did so and I worked three minimum wage jobs in one of the most expensive cities in the world to pursue this passion for this grappling sport. To see where it's come from, then when you just-- You had to move some crazy place, I literally have in this little town, this suburb town that I live in, there are probably four different Brazilian schools with black belts. They really went to town man, I have to log them on the business side of things. I'm not going to lie, it's a little bit of propaganda. Sometimes when I see a lot of moves renamed and histories forgotten then I know that these people know this stuff. It’s just interesting, you can't blame these people. They're making a lot of money and it's become a huge growth industry. There's another thing too that I think happens is a lot of times, you know how it is, fighters want to fight. If you are a Brazilian guy, there's this automatic assumption that you can't catch wrestling or if you're a catch wrestling guy, you can't BJJ. Honestly, both from a business perspective but also from training partners and actually getting to wrestle. Most of our guys come from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu first. The vast majority come through Jiu-Jitsu. I'm very grateful for what they were able to do and how they were able to influence the culture on such a mega way. I do obviously aspire personally to give catch some sort of recognition. When I started my business, I tried to kind of emulate the Gracie business models that have sprung up. That is having a gym and doing it like that way that everybody else was doing it. I just couldn't get it going but it was because I was doing catch in a very hardcore way. The practices were too hard. I even joke with my friend, Roli Delgado, who's a Brazillian Jui-Jitsu black belt in Arkansas. He had Billy when Billy Robinson was like, he's living Arkansas for seven years or whatever. He would go down to this gym and help coach. Roli called me up one time. He's like, "Man, can I just talk to you." I'm like, "Yes, what's up man?" He's like, "I think I got a fire Billy." I'm like, "What? What happened?" I thought something crazy happened. He's like, "He's just too hardcore. He scares everybody off, nobody wants to work that hard." Not that they don't want to work that hard but they don't want to do that grind, nasty, college wrestling level practice of just insanity. That's true, nobody wants to fucking do that shit dude. You're going to have a hard time if your way of making money is open gyms and you got to get members to do that. I always struggled. I could never get people. I could see why something like Pancrases, where they end up getting these stud athletes and create a stable and then they have those guys all fight. **Sonny:** Exactly. **Jake:** It's much difficult. You got to treat it like a college wrestling room, which is just one of the hardest being like conditioning for wrestling. **Sonny:** Oh, yes. Well, that's what's my interest lately has been in obviously this and folkstyle wrestling. I'm very lucky to have a coach who's moved out to Australia from New Jersey. Gary Jones with the Wrestling Foundation. He's recently put in like a system of levels just to give people that idea of progress to let them work through something. \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** You have to do that. The martial arts business model is a very good business model. In terms of retention. The other thing that wrestling has problems with is retention, and that's because it is that nasty attitude like, "I only care about gold." Well, guess what, the other hundred guys in the competition, not- only a few people are winning something. The rest of the guys get nothing ever? Even if they've been in for 25 years. It's interesting, but folkstyle-- it's interesting you mentioned folkstyle, I would argue to say that folk style is probably one of the purest expression of catch-as-catch-can minus the submit. Catch is kind of the fountainhead and there's all these offshoots that come from catch-as-catch-can, pro wrestling, grappling, all those. Pro wrestling is interesting because it just became theater, but the hardest expression of the sport ended up going through obviously freestyle and folk style. Now, freestyle became a-- anybody who follows wrestling knows these basics that freestyles is like the international expression of catch-as-catch-can. Folkstyle is the American version of that evolution French wrestling. It's very interesting man. You go back and you look at the books and you can look at the amateur, the folk style America, the folk style amateur catch-as-catch-can rule books from the early books by the AAU, the Amateur Athletic Union here in the United States. They have jujitsu people called Kimuras. They have double wrist locks, they have submissions. Basically, but you can't tap. They're using these submissions to make the guy go over to his back. All it is, is you're tapping, but it's rolling over into a pin as your tap. **Sonny:** That's definitely one thing I've noticed from doing folk-style wrestling now and especially with my coaches. That, while you can't tap and there's no submissions, there will be some moves or just wrestling rides that, one cause you a lot of pain and the way out of that pain is rolling to your back. Essentially sometimes the pin can sometimes be a submission. Because you're just like, "Man, I want to get out of this. He's given me a way out, go to my back. I'm going to take it. Although, of course, you should never do that. You should go to the end, but that's where it does feel like that's a possibility. **Jake:** 100%. It got to the point where I had to because, again you have to remember I was swimming against the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stream. Forever, people are like, "Well, what's the relevance of pinning?" "No pinning, don't matter." Well, a guy by the name of Eddie Bravo came around with a catch wrestling pin and built an entire platform around it. Pinning is very important. That got me thinking, "Well, that is only one of many kinds of pins that I know people tap to." This twister or what's known prior it was the wrestlers guillotine. There's all kinds of really awful pins like that. Because of that and because of the history of catch, when it was very popular and being practiced widely. There were statistics and you could see that most matches were one of the pin. There were more people that would win because the other guy would give up and say uncle and all that stuff. By in large, the majority were through pins. That really got me thinking, because a lot-- I was trying to make catch relevant and I had so many people in my ear like, "Take pins out, just leave the [grappling and have jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/offence-vs-defence-grappling-jiu-jitsu/) style strategy when you're underneath but catch wrestling on top." There's plenty of people doing that. I just didn't want to do that. I kept pondering the importance of this pin. It is why without submissions, folkstyle wrestling is the greatest bass for MMA, statistically speaking. By a margin that's so wide you can't really argue. You really don't have much of an argument against it. The pin gives you in military parlance, the strategic high grip. This is why it matters in a fight. I can shoot a gun downhill better than up. There's basic fundamental fact about fighting on a planet with gravity. You don't want to be on it, you want to have the high ground. Anyway, I never really give up on it and kept pushing this idea of pinishers. I've been very, very lucky to work with arguably the greatest wrestler to live that we have recorded and that's Wade Schalles. Guinness Book of World Records for the most wins, the most pins, the most wins over international champions, the most wins over national champions. He's a five time all-American, which is very difficult to do in one sport, to become an all-American. That's a very high level and he's a five-time all of them in combat sports. Freestyle, folk style. Greco, Judo and Sambo. The guy is truly a savant. Truly a genius and I've been very fortunate that way to have one coach that's at that level. I'm referring to Billy Robinson. I wouldn't really consider Wade a coach because I was too old when I really started learning from him but he's definitely a mentor. Definitely changed my way of coaching and the way I think about wrestling in a very profound way. Nobody knows who the hell he is, that's the irony. So few people know and he's truly the greatest. You look at him, and he looks like some cross between Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. He doesn't look like Karellen. **Sonny:** The fascinating thing too, when talking about the usefulness of pins. Is when I've been looking into how, recently, pins could be utilized in MMA. We've got the, for the striking game, of course, people are now trying to get back up to their feet as quick as possible. They don't want to be pinned down. That's one thing I've been using for training my MMA guys. It's like three seconds on your back that's a pin. Let's start again, you got to be scrambling to get back to your feet as soon as possible. Then I was \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** If you're on your back it's going to be hard to get points even if you're punching. The guy on top is definitely got an advantage in terms of racking up the score sheet on the punches. There is so many advantages to that top game and the easiest way to practice that is with a pin. You don't have to get a concussion. You don't have to worry about cutting somebody open or breaking a bone in your hand. You can just drill really hard with pins. Again, I think that's why freestyle, folkstyle is translated so well over to Mixed Martial Arts. **Sonny:** The fascinating thing is with the interplay of the pin in MMA is, obviously, the Gracies made their name by becoming so good off their backs. Spending so much time there that they were able to use it as an offensive position. That really built a foundational element of their style. Then now they've started looking at Kazushi Sakuraba. Whenever he got taken down onto his back, he didn't let himself get pinned. He was always just constantly turning to his belly, rolling to his knees. **Jake:** Right, and how mind-blowing is that especially in 2000, he was giving people his back. That was the craziest shit to see these guys get his back. It was so exciting given the context of that time because everybody thought Sakuraba was toasted a second, but every time he just did risk control and shocked him somehow off his back and next thing, the fights back where they started. **Sonny:** I think the fact that he had been training that so much and had been neglected, that he was able to capitalize on people's in familiarity with someone actually doing that and able to turn that into an advantage of his own. When I've been looking back into their history, I find out the Wigan Snakepit, it actually got the name Snakepit because it was said that if you throw a wrestler, he turned to his belly and bite you. I'm like, "Man, that's exactly what happened with Sakuraba." **Jake:** That's interesting. Yes, Sakuraba was was pivotal, man, because truly, I was already down-- I probably would have stayed in more of the performance side of pro-wrestling if it wasn't for Sakuraba, man. I was only really doing that for about three or four years, I actually did fairly well, relatively speaking, there's very few spaces at the top and I had tryouts with WWE, I was able to tour the United States and actually get paid and 50 different city tour, that kind of stuff. I had some success in it, but, man, when Sakuraba came, I was done. I was like, "This is what I must-- It was just such an epiphany. Sakuraba to me, he's almost like a mythical character. I almost don't want to ever meet him and I run in so small circles with him. I want to meet him in a way just because he's just such an epic figure in my life because when he started doing that, it was such a revelation to me given that like, "Yes, it's like you're a flat Earther if you don't tow the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu line," because they were killing everybody. Then I was like, "I got to figure this out." Sakuraba had probably two of the best coaches in terms of complementarity. Complimentary-- How would you say that? They complement each other. That's obviously Billy Robinson, but Mitsuo Tsukahara, who is an Olympic medalist for Japan, I think in the late 70s. He was Sakuraba's coach through what was either high school or college, whatever the equivalent is there in Japan. You could just see it. He is such a natural at all these moves and has drilled them so many times. Yes, Sakuraba was truly somebody special in the history of-- not only MMA. Can you imagine he's in the UFC Hall of Fame and only fought one fight, and now is he defeated the first Brazilian who was in that UFC. **Sonny:** Yes, first- **Jake:** Conan Silveira **Sonny:** -person to tap out a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt. **Jake:** Yes, Conan. He outweighed him. Conan was huge compared to Sakuraba. **Sonny:** Yes. Well, that's also another interesting thing with Sakuraba is that he did fight so many bigger opponents. One of the common criticisms I've heard when people mentioned catch wrestling is that it's only big man moves or only works for bigger or only works in white class. How would you respond to those? **Jake:** Combination of two things. One, a lot of catch wrestlers were, in particular, somebody like Karl Gotch, massive men, like six-foot-four, six-foot-five, and truly strong, like Carl could squat something like five kilos under the world record. He was just massively strong. He was also nimble. He could do like rings gymnastics as a heavyweight. He's just incredibly strong. Of course, people are going to sometimes think of characters like that, they are just these big strong guys and, "They're just going to the muscle." I do think that's a disservice because most catch wrestlers historically have looked a lot more like Royce Gracie than they do Ken Shamrock, historically. **\[unintelligible 00:35:50\]** was a long lanky guy. Farmer Burns was lanky, most of those guys, that was actually the typical build. I understand why people think that and also because I think a lot of times some of the advertising copy of some of the people out there selling catch wrestlers or merchandise, they just go that route, just that like 250-pound guy who just abuses you in the gym, like in their marketing. Do you know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes. **Jake:** I could see why the misconceptions are there but it's in fact, the most dangerous catch wrestlers were always lanky and the like of Royce. **Sonny:** Yes. Karl Gotch, he's a pivotal figure, I believe in Sakuraba's development as well because he now-- You know this better than I obviously. You've met Karl Gotch and worked with him yourself, I believe and he left America for Japan at some point and started teaching over there. Is that correct? **Jake:** It's interesting. You were mentioning this earlier. The first record that I ever have seen, and this is what I was told by a number of people and then I actually saw the article, was a press junket was Karl, in a press junket called it a Snakepit, and the name stuck. That was Riley's gym and now it's become more of a brand thing where I think Miotto in Japan was probably the first guy to use it. Then the guys over in Wigan restarted up and then and Joel Payne here in the United States uses the name. It's a very symbolic and powerful kind of brand within this small little subculture. Karl, he was an interesting guy. I got to be close to him in the last about four years of his life. We would have weekly phone calls. Now they call that shit like remote coaching or some shit. I don't really consider him a life coach, but he was very much a mentor. When I was first running my first catch-as-a-can club, it was at the Santa Monica High School. The first one that was formal, I had some that were just like, we do it out on lawns and shit, but it was the very beginning. We moved into the Santa Monica High School actually, a friend of mine, a great guy, amazing athlete, Mark Schultz, a gold medalist in wrestling. He hooked me up with that gym. Anyway, so I will was just starting out. I didn't know what I was doing. I had Karl on the phone and so he figured out how to run practices, how to talk to the guys, the things that are important to be looking for from a coaching perspective that were not technique based. I couldn't really learn technique because he was in Florida and I was in California, especially back then it was like there was no video phones or anything like that. I got to be very close, and for anybody who's interested, Karl, let me record a number of the conversation. Some of them are just boring me and emotion, but mostly me bugging him about stuff kept wrestling related. I have all those recordings up. It's got to be 20 hours at least of video record over at scientificwrestling.com. It's just called Grotch chats or something when you get to the scientificwrestling.com. Karl was an interesting man. He was a tough dude and he was 12 years older than Billy. You have to understand, he's in a whole other generation. If you think somebody 12 years older than you wrestling you. It's a whole different kind of generation. Now, Karl came up, he always described himself as a poor boy that grew up on the waterfront and he took to wrestling, his mother-- He got in a fight or something and his mother put him in it if I remember correctly, his dad didn't get along very well, but he did really well. He ended up becoming something like-- I can't remember off the top my head, I keep so many of these different scores in my head or these different records. I think he was seven-time Belgium champ for Greco and freestyle, I want to say that. Anyway, he found him a spot at the Olympics in 48, which was again back in London. While he was there, I think he placed like seventh or something in the world, so its nothing to sneeze at. I think he was there for Greco, I could be wrong about that. It was one of the two obviously, but I think it was Greco. Anyway, he placed like seventh or somewhere between 7th to 10th, something like that. It was the Olympics. Anyway, while he was there, Billy Robinson's uncle, the guy by the name of Alf Robinson, there's a picture he was a famous boxer. He fought like Max Baer and guys like that and he was also a pro wrestler. That's how it kind of Billy got into pro wrestling was through his uncle Alf. While Alf was at those Olympics and was kind of like a road agent for Wigan, and because they were up in Manchester, which is very close, and he was champion, a wrestler boxer. He saw Karl at those '48 Olympics and invited him to come out to Wigan. In Wigan, they ended up calling him Chesty, because he was always-- Some people call him arrogant, but he was just very confident and didn't like bullshitting and wasn't very patient. He goes to Wigan and even the little middleweights were beating his ass, and he just kind of had this epiphany like, "This is my life's mission. He stayed there for approximately a decade, give or take a couple of years and came to America. Karl had a hard time getting over in America. There's always this rivalry that historians bring up of that era between Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz, the two notorious shooters from pro wrestling in that era. They were both the same age, both had Hungarian backgrounds, but Lou made a killing, became super-wealthy . One of the wealthiest people ever work in pro wrestling, whereas Karl never did, but who had more influence on wrestling? I would argue Karl did because he was probably single-handedly responsible for MMA as we know it today. The number two largest pro-wrestling organization, new Japan pro wrestling was one that he had a hand in. The guy was massively influential. Anyway, Karl, when he came to the United States just got a reputation for being difficult to work with because he didn't like losing because he was actually a real wrestler, found himself in this phoney pro-wrestling shit. Just was getting frustrated because he wasn't charismatic or didn't have some stupid gimmick. He's like, "Why am I having to lose all the time?" Anyway buddy Rogers, the very first guy to call himself the nature boy was one of the biggest stars ever. In the locker rooms, Karl and him got into a fight and basically Karl beat the fucking shit out of him. The guy ended up calling the police and Karl had, I think he almost got deported or something. Anyway, Karl was very poor at one point. He ended working as a garbage man, I think in Hawaii for a little bit. Long story short, one of his buddies big Bill Miller was already working in Japan and said, "Hey man, come on out here." Then the rest is, as they say, history. His attitude, his combat, his fighting spirit was like, he became the what is known as the 'God of wrestling' in Japan. Because Japan being a very combat sport-oriented culture, karate to judo, the little kids are all fighting anyway. Karl goes to Japan becomes massively influential because he's going to the Kodokan and beaten up the Judocas there and just getting mad, respect over. Inoki, ironically half Brazilian, half Japanese, Inoki ends up becoming the star and he and Karl get aligned and they just rode the wave man. You ended up having the Ali fight, which Gene LeBell was the ref f or. You ended up having new Japan starting, which is the strong style, which is more of a combat style pro wrestling. You have the UWF, which has all Karl Gotch's students and then the UWF splits off and splinters, which eventually becomes like Pancrase and then Pride. Anyway, that takes you to the modern time. Karl was involved in the mix of all of that in some crucial way, but he never had anything to do with Sakuraba directly. It was Billy. That was Billy. **Sonny:** Not directly, but from my understanding he was the factor that led to this creation of this strong style or shoot style wrestling, is that-? **Jake:** A strong style. Then strong style, which is again, the second biggest pro-wrestling company in the world after WWE is new Japan Pro Wrestling and new Japan Pro Wrestling is strong style. It's a really tough way to wrestle. Most guys who do pro wrestling in the United States would really not last long in that system. It's very tough. It's a lot like MMA. It's tough on the body. You have to be particularly durable. It's a rough way to go about things. Anyway, beyond new Japan, there was things that began to splinter off and you end up with these organs, what I call proto-MMA organizations like the UWF rings, UWFi, Pro Wrestling Fujiwara, Gumi, Shooto. There's all of these like, but they all come from Karl. Most of them, the majority of them, they can trace their way back to Karl. Karl was massively influential in terms of continuing catch wrestling through the late 20th century into the beginning of the 21st. **Sonny:** Well, the Shooto on the UWFi, I'm fascinated at the moment researching about Sakuraba. One thing I've read is that he was inspired to take up wrestling at a young age from the comic book or the Japanese manga of Tiger Mask. The manga told a story about a professional wrestler who also fought crime, something like that. That inspired Sakuraba to take up wrestling and eventually leads him into professional wrestling, which at the time was the UWF and I don't know, was tiger mask involved in that? Because his name, it was Satoru Sayama. **Jake:** Sayama was probably one of Karl Gotch's most famous students, but he wasn't in the UWFi. He was in the UWF, but there's matches-- He would fought everywhere. He was like Sakuraba in a way. If you watch those pro wrestling matches with him, the guy was out of this world. The way he could move was so insane. Ahead of anybody else was doing. Today a lot of the guys how like break dancing in the '80s was mind-blowing , nobody could do it. Now everybody can do these things. A lot of the pro wrestlers can do it, but it was so innovative the way a Tiger Mask wrestled. In that way it's interesting cause he had Karla as an inspiration then Billy as a coach. **Sonny:** It's fascinating, There are these little rabbit holes that go down with this story and it all seems link up. Sakuraba was in this UWFi that then has Billy Robinson coaching these professional wrestlers to wrestle in a style that is, let's catch wrestling obviously, but to wrestle put on performances in a style to entertain, but at the basis of it, they're doing real catch wrestling. Is that roughly what's going on in the UWFi? **Jake:** The UWFi outcomes were preordained. They knew that say Takada who was very popular. He was the Hulk Hogan of that promotion that Takada was going to win. They knew that because they were doing that in the writing or in what's known in the wrestling world as booking. What they would do a lot of times, and they did have some shoots. I know for example-- his name is just slipping my mind right now. Billy Scott, he's a great guy who fought for the UWFi. He also had to fight like a pro boxer, I can't remember who it was, but it was somebody who was a real boxer, like a pro fighter. That was a Shoot. They would mix in a couple shoots where they really felt confident that they would win, but it was mostly works. What you do in pro wrestling that you want to keep it real or exciting is, so you could do this. This is actually a great thing for BJJ and MMA guys as a practice method. This has been something that [catch wrestlers that work in pro wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) for a long time. That is you wrestle from hold to hold. Let's say you and I square off. You're a lot younger than me and I'm out of the game. Let's just, we're hypothetical staring at each other. We get seated and we get drawn to where we have to wrestle a match. I'm looking at you, you're looking at me whistle blows and we go. In worked match, if we want to make it go on, you and I are going to wrestle and say, you have a wicked single leg or something. You get the single leg, you put me into a Achilles right off that or a heel hook or something. You and I both know that you got that heel hook because I could tap it. You just don't crank it. You hold it. You just work the hole. We wrestle for real but then you worked that hold and I work to get out of it. Just like you would do in a drill in your gym, and I get out of it and you try something out. Basically, what you're doing is you're wrestling but you're just not taking home any of the moves. Do you understand? As soon as you can beat a guy, he's up off the gas a bit, let him encounter or escape and then you start up again. **Sonny:** That's what I've been noticing when I'm watching Sakuraba's pro wrestling matches, is that, I'm starting to think in a way it was like sparring that he was doing in the ring in his pro wrestling. **Jake:** Everybody on Instagram, what do they call it, 'flow rolling' now or some shit. I'm like, "We've been doing chain wrestling, and fucking pro wrestling and amateur wrestling for hundreds of years, chain wrestling. **Sonny:** I think a common misconception with pro wrestling is that with the predetermined outcomes that they've worked out every single move in a match. I don't know if that is the case for some matches, but it seems to me that watching the UWFi matches that they're really just going from instincts and just going with the moves and just coming up just flowing with it basic- you know, floor rolling with it exactly, \[laughs\] with the moves. Just like working from instincts as if they're sparring. Is that how those pro wrestling matches or all pro wrestling matches work? **Jake:** What you'll do, this is the great thing and what I teach because I've been teaching at a pro wrestling school of all things recently. I've taught everywhere from BJJ schools to high school wrestling gyms. Now I'm at this pro wrestling school and what I have been doing is learning how to wrestle. Because what, typically, you want to do is, you want to be able to have a guy who actually can wrestle, because then you just go in and do that. You do your foam roll and you wrestle, or what I call wrestle from hold to hold. You actually are scrambling. You're actually trying to win, and when you get it, you just don't take it home and let the guy get out, so you can keep going and earn a check. People don't want to see a two-minute match, they want it to go on for a half hour, whatever. Anyway, that doesn't have to be scripted, you don't have to call it in the ring, which is another way of pro wrestling works. You don't have to do any of that shit. You can just wrestle, but that takes two people who actually can decently wrestle, because, as you know, trying to wrestle a white belt or something, they're fucking dangerous. You get ass-kicked. You don't want to work with that guy, you're going to go in and kill him. Anyway, what they do a lot of days now, or in some of these more Shooto oriented is, they'll wrestle from hold to hold, but then beforehand they'll say, "Okay, listen, I want to get off my-- I don't know, "some finishing move or some big spot." You want to get yours off, so they figure out at some point how to cue, that the other guy has to fake being exhausted, so the other guy can climb up to the top rope or whatever. Or they will call it during a match sometimes too, if they could feel the energy in the crowd, like a jazz musician, and they can riff. They can start saying, "Hey, I'll toss you off the ropes, sunset flip, and yada, yada." They just call it that way too. There's a bunch of different ways you can do it and keep it a little more spontaneous feeling and authentic. It's weird to me that, for example, in the United States, you can have somebody like Ronda Rousey or Randy Couture or somebody like that go through MMA, do all this stuff, be great, and then go into-- What was that movie? The Invisibles? What's the one? **Sonny:** Expendables. **Jake:** Expendables, yes. Nobody is like, "You know that's fake, right? You know that The Expendables isn't real." It's like, "Well, what's the difference between him doing that and Ronda Rousey going into WWE? No shit, it's not real." John Wick is not real, but it's fucking cool shit to watch that shit, to see somebody really doing these crazy moves and giving you ideas and inspiring you. There's different ways to do pro wrestling, the problem is that WWE has been so successful, and that's great for them. I'm happy for them. Well, now after this economy tanking, now I think it's valued at $3 billion or something, but just the idea that there's a group of men in their underpants pretending to fight and it's worth $3 billion, is amazing to me. I think that WWE is such a strong brand and it's so powerful in commanding of media that people don't understand that there is-- Like pro wrestling has got all kinds of facets to it. It's not just one side, there's all kinds of different styles of pro wrestling, and personally, I include MMA in pro wrestling. I consider it to be a style of pro wrestling. It's just a no pin, shoot cage match. **Sonny:** Yes. Well, that said, the interesting crossover with tracing that history. As you mentioned before, professional wrestling starting where the promoters got involved, and the idea came to make up more for money. There's promotional side of the UFC that we can see drifting more and more to using things from the pro wrestling playbook with trash talk and with their promotional tactics, where it fought so hard to be accepted as a real sport early on, and has got that acceptance, but not really. It's in this grey area that keeps shifting from one side to the other, it seems. Definitely recently, it's seems to start slowly shifting back, and just some elements creeping in from that pro wrestling playbook. **Jake:** Look at Colby, that Colby Covington, or you look at Conor McGregor, or you look at Chael Sonnen. Muhammad Ali took from the pro wrestling playbook in cutting promos and hyping up matches. You got to do that if you're going to make money. You've got to have drama. You've got to have people care. One of the things HBO did to revitalize boxing were those documentaries that that they would film building up to the matches and stuff. That is as big a part of this sport as anything, and so I do think people get obsessed with this mentality of trying to figure out who's truly the best. It's just, man any day, somebody's got your number. You know what I mean? **Sonny:** Yes, that's true. That's the truth. **Jake:** It's better to think in terms of making money, not trying to figure out who's the best. Because figuring out who's the best, that might be interesting but that will change in five minutes, whereas building a business is sustainable. You could keep running these contests indefinitely. Maybe you've got to figure out some-- Maybe not, maybe they are shady, maybe you're lying to people and saying it's a straight contest when it's not, but you've got to keep the business alive somehow. It's an interesting thing to watch, and it's also interesting to see the mafia involvement with professional sports, in particular, in Japan. That's really what killed Pride, which is the ultimate, in my mind, the pro wrestling version of MMA, was the Yakuza. It's just shady dealings, man. What can you do? That happens in governments, it happens everywhere. It's a difficult thing. **Sonny:** Yes. That's the funny thing I find about this is, it seems to be this small microcosm of everything that happens in life and the world government, whatever, but it's all laid out. Like we know there's no theater anymore. We know it's there, but it's just all these little things start to interact and influence each other. Even with the theater and using that for a promotional element, it's funny-- A conversation I've had before is, in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I don't know if you've seen. Like on Instagram, a lot of people will put out Instagram moves. The idea is you want it just to look as cool as possible. You don't want a nice slow choke, crushing pressure from side control, no one's going to watch that four-minute long video. It has to be a minute of something exciting. I don't know what it is, and sometimes people put out stuff that you're like, "That move, it's a bit dicey. I don't know if that will ever work," but that's what- \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** They are all doing the same thing. They're all hustling man. They're all trained to get there and it could be total bullshit, but they're hustling. That's a total truth. It's very funny to watch all these people doing these floor moves and stuff, and it's so funny because you find back in the early days of MMA people making fun of traditional martial arts. I look at all these intricate things that are people doing, it's grappling Kata. It's like, "Okay, that's cool, but try to pull that off." **Sonny:** Yes. Well, that's fascinating too, because we talked about Eddie Bravo bringing the [wrestling pin into jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) with the twister, wrestler's guillotine, turning into a whole system. I don't know if you're aware that he's put out now a whole system of 10th Planet warm-ups, which he has a system. All these schools around the world every week, do the same set of warm-ups, which is Brazilian jiu-jitsu Kata. It's set a moves that they work through, just flowing from one to another, and it worked great on Instagram as well for promo. They put those out and they look excellent. His inspiration for that was also Kata as well. He wanted guys to be able to work something just off the bat, so that links up back into that as well. Which it's just all things to keep being interconnected. **Jake:** Well, the good thing about that thing is that, this is one thing that was missing in the jiu-jitsu when I started, is there was no drilling. There was no drilling. The Brazilian guy would come in with his Portuguese accent, show you how to do a paintbrush version of a top press lock, and then everybody would wrestle for an hour. You go to a wrestling room, you look at somebody who's just a genius on the mat, like Cary Kolat, and he's like, "Dude, I'm 90% drilling." It's a whole different way of looking at things, and that is what it sounds like Bravo is doing with these warm ups. It almost sounds like drilling moves, which is a very important part that the modern grappling scene could really learn a lot from folks about wrestling, and that is just that drilling ethic. You always have to wrestle and you have to spar, drilling, it's boring as shit, but that's how you get the muscle memory in, so you don't have to think about it, just automatically happens. **Sonny:** Yes. Other conversations I've had recently is, how we can make those drilling sessions more enjoyable and turning it into games and things like that. **Jake:** You have to when it's run as a school, where you have students paying- to be entertained. That's a form of fitness and entertainment for them. Whereas if you have like a bunch of guys you hired to put on a TV show, and they are getting a paycheck, and they don't drill, they get fired. It's different. The [pro wrestler is different than the part-time grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/craig-jones-bjj-interview-down-under-danaher/) enthusiast as well. It changes everything. I've given up on the idea of trying to get a school going, I'm just teaching coaches now but my real vision is to actually get a promotion going so I can coach a few all-American level athletes with this and use that as a showcase. It is amazing to see somebody Sakuraba or Tamura, and they tangle and it's like, “Holy shit, this scramble is just like amazing to watch because it's counter, re-counter.” **Sonny:** That Sakuraba vs Tamura match, if anyone wants to go watch that. That is a great one to view for that shoot-style wrestling look. I've watched that a couple of times over the last week and that's given me a lot of these thoughts that I've had recently. Even the thought I'm having now it's like, “Yes, so what is a good way to make that drilling fun and entertaining?” Well, hang on. That's what you were saying with would you call the hold to hold? I’m like, “Oh, hang on," then we're going back into that shoot stuff. **Jake:** That was what it is. You could think about it this way because and I don't know the laws, where you're at. They're completely different than you’re like-- **Sonny:** Sure. **Jake:** For example, in United States, you don't have to get the State Athletic Commission involved, unless there's punching or kicking. You can hold a grappling tournament and you could just do it as long as you have insurance. You don’t need the state involved. **Sonny:** Yes, insurance is a big thing here. I’m sure of it. **Jake:** That's also what they get away with pro-wrestling here too. Pro wrestling doesn't have to have-- It’s just, so you could conceivably do something with your school because this is actually how pro wrestling schools operate. They charge their students and then the students are really paid to play performers. They pay to enter the school and then the school has a promotion attached to it that they'll put on a show every month and put the students in the show. You could run a pro wrestling show, but have it shoot-style and every month just your local guys, your school, you just state, you have them bring family and friends and it's not a big deal, it's not some serious thing like a tournament. It's just your own promotion, your little school, you act like a small girl. There are ways you could maybe motivate people that are more aligned with the catch wrestling attitude, but the end in training for a pro wrestler is that performance, is that competition that time when it's, do I win or do I lose and it's all on me kind of thing. It’s not at all. I think nerves and public performance are a big part of it too. **Sonny:** Yes, I actually think that's a great idea to get. You could say how you guys go work out something, make sure you're entertainers and go put something together because, and yet make a note of it even my Brazilian [jiu-jitsu school with my coach](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-new-wave-no-gi-jiu-jitsu/) Anthony Lang, a couple of years ago, we decided he wanted to change up the gradings a little bit which were a demonstration of moves, and now, the brown belts, have to put on exactly that. The brown belt is going to pick someone, you guys come up with something and put it on because the grading everyone's there, everyone’s watching. **Jake:** Yes, imagine you do that and then you let people wear like glittery underpants and masks and paints, and then come out to rock roll music and they have fireworks. That’s the greatest thing you could ever do. **Sonny:** I kid you not. My coach's wife, Nikki Lang, when she did one for her black belt, that's what she did. She had a smoke machine. **Jake:** Nice. **Sonny:** I played the music-- **Jake:** Nice. She had an ancient scene and everything. **Sonny:** She had ancients and then she came in and did the performance. She worked with NAS, one of the brown belts and they did it all together. It was great. They'd been working on it-- \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** See, that’s pro wrestling. You didn’t need to be there every time. **Sonny:** They had been working on for weeks. **Jake:** That’s pro wrestling right there. **Sonny:** That's fascinating man. It all comes full circle. **Jake:** \[laughs\] **Sonny:** I love it. That's so good. **Jake:** It's interesting because it is important, sometimes the mentality and the reasons why people do things. Pro wrestling is different, a lot of jujitsu people come up because they want self-defense or the, most people are in pro wrestling is because they love pro wrestling. They love all of it. They love the craziness, the violence, the beauty of it, the ridiculousness of it, they love all of it. It is just sometimes a little bit of a different sensibility. **Sonny:** Well, that's where it came from and it’s like for Anthony to do what I think is like, "Hey guys, you guys know at this stage he knows everyone that's been doing it long enough. He knows what they're doing, he is like, “Hey, let's have some fun. Let's make this enjoyable for everyone sitting around. I know what you guys are at, but let's change it from just a rote memorization of techniques or display to let's have some fun and make this more enjoyable, let's make this entertaining again,” which is. **Jake:** Well, think about the amount of time somebody will drill or rehearse, or go through the same move when they know they've got to perform in front of all their friends. They don't have to worry about the embarrassment to get their ass kicked, but they're going to actually have to perform the move the right way. You don't get better drilling than that. **Sonny:** Well, there's a lot of sports science I think about the pressure of performance being critical to actually get good training results is bringing all those elements in of a timer and trying to make things as much like game day as possible, or match day will actually improve the quality of your training. Just having that audience there watching your performance I assume would be another way to get a bit of that effect, crossing over as well. **Jake:** When you're in front of a big crowd, you'll learn to block them out. It's like anything, it takes repetition. If you're going your first day and it's a huge crowd, that can be a whole factor that you hadn't really anticipated. **Sonny:** Yes, and the changes it definitely that's when we've had like little just amateur MMA shows, is it first thing everyone just in the gym, little gym battles. The first thing everyone comes out when they say it's like, “Oh," it’s a lot different when everyone's standing around looking at you dead silent. It just changes the dynamics so much. **Jake:** That transition between when I was coaching catch on like the beach when I lived on Venice Beach in LA to the time I was at the Santa Monica High School, there was a six-month period where I went to Gene Lebell School. It was actually Gokor. For about six months I got to roll with guys like Manny Gamburyan. . Karo wasn’t there, but I got to roll with Gokor who just kicked my ass. The guy was just so amazing. His footswitch were like some I never have seen before. One of the things that they did at that school, and again, and probably a lot of it had to do with Gene Lebell's influence too, was that at the end every month they'd have an intra-school tournament. Only that school. Nobody else is invited just that school, you have a little club tournament in house every month. I think it's important for developing that kind of inoculation to being in front of a crowd and have people watching grapple or wrestle. It's important. **Sonny:** Yes. It's so funny that it seems like looking at the two people competing in the combat sports or wrestling no matter what it is, you've got the two competitors and then above them, there seems to be the promoter or the money that can influence the wrestling performance in so many different ways, and then on the bottom side you've got the audience, which can also influence. There's like this interaction between all those things that will just change the end product or the end results so much. At the end of the day, it's all that human instinct to wrestle that well for combat sports. With that in mind, what would you think then Brazilian Jiu jitsu could some other things that they could possibly learn from catch wrestling, or maybe not even necessarily techniques. I'm sure there's heaps of those, but what are some takeaways that you think could be a bit more integrative? **Jake:** I've really gone all-in on this catch wrestling thing. I’ve really taken this on as a bit of an experiment starting back in 2003, and so not only trying to learn the history, promote the history, learn the techniques, promote the techniques, but also to create the sport. I'll tell you this, I've loved grappling for a very long, long time. My friends that don't like grappling, but believe it or not I do have some friends that don't like grappling. They can't fucking watch it. They can't fucking watch it because it's so boring. To us players, it's not boring because we know what's going on, but it's not like football or baseball or soccer or whatever, where you could sit down and figure it out in one game what's going on, and then become a fan, become a spectator. You just don't see it. Even guys like Gary Tonon and Gordon Ryan and all that, they're making some good money, but it's still not like huge numbers. It's not like boxing numbers, it's not like MMA numbers, because it's a more complicated thing. Now, here's the one thing that I think that grappling, in general, could learn from catch wrestling and by the way, I've said this elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating. I look at these top guys and grappling now from Nikki Rods to Gordon Ryan, and they're all fricking jacked and NoGi. It looks like the Lion's Den from the early 90s. **Sonny:** It does. There's no longer the little man going around. **Jake:** It's all like the truth is that I think that have run through, you know, because catch wrestling has been around for so long. It's experimented with a lot of different things and like any system finds what works and disregards what doesn't. It's been around for a long, long time. One of the things that its found is that adding the pin makes grappling submission grappling, adding the pin to submission grappling makes it viable as a spectator sport. The pin pushes the action and when the guy's putting a shoulder up to try to get his shoulders off the man, he opens himself up for submissions. It pushes the action. A lot of people work down on it. But listen, it's integral to the success of actually having a professional grappling system is the pin. It's important it pushes the action so people who don't play the sport will actually spend money to watch it. I truly believe that and I can make an analogy. Look at MMA. If I were to simply replace striking with pinning, MMA and catch wrestling are the same thing. It's a two vector game. I can win with a knockout or submission. I can win with a pin or a submission. Simple. **Sonny:** Yes. That element to be able to make it exciting and make it watchable for the general public. That's something that even watching black belt matches it, especially NoGi sometimes for jujitsu it can be hard when it's just long portions of not much happening. **Jake:** Judo, anything like it has the same problem and I honestly do believe it's the pin. **Sonny:** It's funny that again, Eddie Bravo, he's been one that's been trying to mix around with the format with his EBI tournament, where his main goal was to try and get grappling on television or just try to make it exciting. He bought in just sub only, no points, only subs, you know, 10-minute matches. He bought in some overtime stuff, which people seem to really enjoy. At the beginning people were really into it because it seems like all the Danaher guys came in and really they tore up all those early tournaments just dominating. They were incredibly exciting matches when they put those on because they were just rolling around. That's when people started to take notice. Again, it's funny, I've heard Danaher's he's written once that he says his system shares some philosophies with catch wrestling, but he hasn't gone into that any deeper that I've been able to follow. **Jake:** To be honest, I've never seen one of his videos. I've seen him. Obviously, the guy's very famous and a very successful coach, so I know who he is, but I've never really watched any of his systems or his videos or whatever. Man, I just can't focus on it that long. **Sonny:** It's very difficult. He's a dry talker. **Jake:** I'm a quant. I have my Master's Degree in Math. I could be as nerdy and wonkie as possible, but I also know how to change the inflection of my voice. Anyway, the point of it is this is the guy has obviously been very successful, but from looking at the catalog of things he offers, he's the first guy in jujitsu that I see actually talking about pinning. Again, everybody talks about, Oh, Danaher and this leg lock stuff. I'm like, "Yes, these are things that we've been saying for a long fucking time guys." I will give Danaher credit that he’s open-minded and he's integrating it into the system. I look at all the Danaher Death Squad leg lock and flexing their muscles and all that kind of stuff. It's just like, "Man, this is like the Lion’s Den all over again." **Sonny:** Promoting themselves on social media, those guys are the biggest. Gordon Ryan started- **Jake:** Pro wrestlers, yes. \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** -showing up in the crown and the cap and all that tearing through with leg locks. Now everyone talks about pins in grappling. Everything is a pinning position. It would just be holding someone there, not the finish of the match. **Jake:** I know that you've been around for a while and somebody like me, I'm an old grandpa that's been around forever. I just could tell you just the level of bullshit sometimes is baffling to me because just like-- I remember having arguments about leg locks to people, I remember having arguments about pinning to people. Now it's like when everybody jumps on the bandwagon, it's great because I'm like, "Yes, fuck, awesome. Let's do this, do the leg locks. Let's pin. Let's try throwing in- like Nelson's next, or actually let's get real crazy and start using wrist locks. Not double wrist locks like actually attacking the wrist joint, or spine locks." There's so much. There's so much that's not being used. **Sonny:** Yes. It's fascinating because there was that history of leg locks in catch wrestling for a while, wasn't there? **Jake:** Oh geez. Yes. Even Sambo recognizes that. Sambo got its leg locks originally from catch wrestling. Then they went off on their own and refined it in their own way for their own sport and their own rules and did fantastic. The other thing that is really missing, I'm hoping-- I am just one guy and I'm very grateful for any way that I've been able to contribute to this sport. I'm very grateful because I love this sport just to be a part of it it's just something amazing. I am talking grappling as a whole. I am also realistic and I know that my influence is not very far beyond catch wrestling circles, and that's a very small circle. I do hope guys like Danaher and Bravo continue to use these other methods to innovate the sports that they're in. The one that I'm really hoping somebody is going to bust wide open in the start using in a methodical way against jujitsu is cradles. I've been on this bandwagon for probably 15 years now. Cradles are truly everywhere. They are truly everywhere. If you just got to look for them and they are such a difficult position to get out of once you're in one. I find that jujitsu guys are always in a bad position with regards to cradles a lot. I hope somebody, maybe somebody listening to your show because you probably have more influence than I do in MMA, that they start really trying to integrate cradles as an offensive weapon or even as a passing weapon. Obviously a lot of my guys and stuff know this, they’ve been working out their own systems and doing great. But what I'm saying is some of these Danaher guys too, cradles are so amazing. They have so much application in grappling. **Sonny:** That's actually one thing I've been-- I’m with you on that 100%. I've been working on cradles in trying to integrate them in my game as well. I actually did a seminar with Matthew Tesla who's a Danaher's Brown belt over here, and one of the things he showed was a cradle. **Jake:** Oh nice. Good. Okay, good. **Sonny:** You never know where that could go because yes, there's definitely a lot of combat potential film. Just a great technique to be working into things. **Jake:** Also for your wrestling, it's the best foot for wrestling as well. When you figure out how to bring them over to the submission game, you can set up leg locks and toe holds and knee bars or there's so many crazy things you can do from a cradle, let alone just passing the guard. **Sonny:** Yes. That's where I think there'll be a lot of use for it like one take in the back is a huge one. Yes, leg entries, it will be a good way to explore that into the future. With the leg entries in the Danaher guys, what's your take on the recent crossover matches that Gordon Ryan again has being having with Bone Nickel, Pat Downey and taking on these wrestling guys? I'm sure you probably feel the same way, but I'm watching these matches going, "Why don't they add a pin to these and just make this pin or submit, and then wouldn't that be a fair representation of the rules?" What do you think of that? **Jake:** Well, I'm 100% with you on that thought. I'm very much like, "Oh, fuck guys, you're so close, just please." **Sonny:** So close. So close, right? So close. \[laughs\] \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** Just do a pin. These matches are total easy and you'd have all this historical precedent. Anyway, however, the good news, the silver lining to that is that they're getting close. In fact, this is how most of the match just backed that they were these weird rules that were agreed upon by both sides. This is what I was talking about, the difference between having a promoter who puts out a uniform set of rules, whereas you have two fighters negotiating rules, you understand? It changes the sport a little bit. A lot of times what they would do back is they would do the best two or three but match one would be catch. Match Two would be Cornell elbow. Match Three would be Greco-Roman. Do you understand? This is the other thing, catch is not really kind of-- It doesn't lend itself to an authoritarian, top-down command structure. It's more of a grassroots bottom-up thing. They definitely meet in the middle often, but it's more of a grassroots thing. The importance of that is that there are variants in these rules, man. I could go back look at all the different rule sets that have been published, and there have been a million more than that are just agreed upon between betters. You can have the strangle barred. You could have the full Nelson barred. You could have toe holds barred, you could have a three-count pin. You could have a five-count pin. You could have a pin where it had to be both shoulders or a pin where it had to be both shoulders and a hit down to the count to start. These variant rules that you see in modern grappling as like these guys are trying to find a place to meet in the middle, it's just weird to me. It almost, I'm just going be honest here, it's like maybe smacks a little insecurity that they don't want to go to pro wrestling. It seems so obvious like if I'm doing every other rule variant possible, but the one where the jujitsu and the wrestling guy would pin me. I don't know. It depends on how much weed I smoke and how conspiratorial I am. **Sonny:** It's so funny because, yes, that Gordon Ryan, his last match with Pat Downey, of course you're talking about changing the rules. They banned heel hooks. They took heel hooks out. It was the same with the match with Bo Nickal. The one with Pat Downey, the first match was submission wrestling, the second match was freestyle wrestling. It's so close, and it has this historical precedent that you're saying and it's likewise. **Jake:** I'm telling you that modern NoGi grappling is closer to catch wrestling than jujitsu than it is to jujitsu, in my opinion, because there are these leg locks. There's all these things. There's the promotional aspect, there's betting. They're so close, man. Then you have these different rule variants and things. They're really so close. **Sonny:** So close it seems. **Jake:** Yes, it's very interesting. You look at Craig Jones and Vinny Margulies. I kind of consider Margulies a bit of a catch guy. Margulies is a beast, right? He's a guy who doesn't get, in my opinion, enough press. He's not running around with a crown or doing sexy Instagram videos or anything like that. You know what I mean? Vinny Margulies is a bad ass. One of my guys who is also a bad ass, Jesse Merez, he came up under Billy and I. He's friends with Margulies. **Sonny:** He's hit Twisters in ADCC. He's 10th Planet black belt as well. **Jake:** Yes, he's beast. **Sonny:** Catch is so funny. It's so right to be made fun of too because you do have all this history and stuff. Sometimes you look at those old pictures and the guys with the weird mustaches and the long pants. It is a little anachronistic. What I'm really hoping for is, I truly believe catch wrestling, as a business, is the sweet spot between UFC and WWE. I think there's money to be made there on a big scale between those because I know that there's a lot of crossover fans. That's why Brock Lesnar and Ronda Rousey went to WWE, and CM Punk went to UFC. There's a huge crossover appeal. I just think that, "Hey, man, we could do something." You wouldn't have to get state athletic commissions involved because there's no punching and kicking. It's a lot like UFC in terms of its rough man. These guys are really going to go at it. I think it would be really neat to see. That's what I've been working on. I got just a little disillusioned of trying to do it the Brazilian jujitsu way until I realized you can't cause it's not Brazilian jujitsu. It's a whole different thing. It will never go. I just hit my head against the wall trying to make a square peg fit in the round hole. What has to happen is that you need money again. I hate to sound crass. I'm really not a selfish person. If I was, I'd have more money. You do need money. You need a promotion. We need a showcase. That's what I've been working on. I launched the King Catch Wrestling in 2007, which was an open tournament. Now, I'm working to get funding for an actual show. I've already got the name Shoot Pro Wrestling trademark. Whether we go with that or not, it's just a working concept. That's the vision. What I'd really like to do is actually have a show that is halfway between, truly halfway between UFC and WWE. By that I mean, we would have exhibition actions like WWE. However, just like there's a hard core title and there's a tag team title and there's a cruiserweight title, all these different kinds of titles, there would be a shoot title. That shoot title is always on the level. It's always a competitive match. Then that way you could cycle guys in and out of the shoot division and then when their body is too beat up from during those hard matches all the time, you put him back into the normal wrestling belt contention where they can chill out a little bit and not take so much abuse. Then, when they're healed up they go back into shoot. **Sonny:** Yes, well that makes sense too, because Vinny just had his leg destroyed or his ankle just ripped off yesterday. **Jake:** Yes, he knee or something. **Sonny:** Far out. You're thinking like you have shoot matches at the top of the card, but then give these guys a chance to just, hey, teammates, put on some exhibitions just to keep active in the meantime, and you put on some entertainment. I think that sounds reasonable to me. **Jake:** If you think of it more almost like vaudeville or like a variety show, that's really what pro wrestling is like the WWE. It's the longest running television show in the history of the United States. No other show has been on its long as it has without a break and without reruns. Something crazy like 30 or 40 years or something. It's like vaudeville, one section is funny, one section is sexy, one funny and serious, one part is tragic, one is heroic. They just mix it all up. Well, I think that legit competitive wrestling can hold place at that table. The whole table doesn't have to be competitive though. That's where I think people are getting mixed up and not working together. You know what I mean? We've had fucking one of greatest wrestlers ever go in to pro wrestling, Kurt Angle. Wouldn't it be great just to have him and have like a whole belt where people could come in and try to shoot for it. That'd be really exciting I think. **Sonny:** I'm with you on that. I think it's so just interesting just how these different worlds just keep borrowing from each other and just the fact that, yes, I think you've got a good idea there of another way forward to keep that progression happening. Even with grappling, the last, I don't how long it's been, a year or two, but Sakuraba's quintet. That's been one of the biggest changes in the grappling rule sets that's been very popular with everyone. Everyone's like, "Wow, this is an amazing new format. It's real entertaining, exciting." Of course it's Sakuraba, so it's borrowed heavily from wrestling with folkstyle wrestling team duels. He made really quick stalling calls for people to keep the action going. Band closed guard and heel hooks to keep the action going. It's made it exciting. That team format lends itself to telling-- You get these naturally arising storylines where people avenge the loses of their teammates. That's become one of the biggest things in grappling the last the last couple years. Again, that cross over from those historical precedents. Well, you even see people now. **Jake:** I almost had this shoot pro wrestling. Well, it's going to be the King of Catch Wrestling Championships. We're going to make it an invitational, kind of do what Eddie Bravo did and take it out of an open tournament format, making it an invitational. Well, we got all the way to the end and about a month prior, just kind of folded. We just ended up having some coordination issues that precluded us from actually putting a show on, which sucked. However, we got really, really close. One of the things I wanted to do and fortunately I see other people doing it now was tag team grappling. I've seen these competitions where I can't remember the name of the promotion. **Sonny:** Yes, Chael Sonnen's, Submission Underground was put on a couple of tag team matches **Jake:** Tag teams, okay, yes. I mean, it's like amazing man. This is the kind of thinking. Why is everybody trying to reinvent the book? You can go back and look at these ideas that these other promoters have worked on in the past, and there's money in them. **Sonny:** Of course, Chael Sonnen and another person who stole or not stole, borrowed whatever from the pro wrestling playbook. **Jake:** He's really much a pro wrestler. He totally is a heel- like Jesse Ventura was. **Sonny:** He's said lines at press conferences which were taken directly word for word, I think, from old pro wrestling footage and he made a lot of money doing it. He changed the game in promotional side for the UFC, and probably was the leading for Conor, which again Conor changed the game. We're still figuring where this is all going to run into. **Jake:** Well, interesting to tie it all back, Billy Robinson and I were in the room with Chael and Neil Melanson and Randy Couture the night before Sonen, Silva won. The one where he took him all to the end and at the very end gets triangled. **Sonny:** Yes, I know it well. **Jake:** Billy and I were over at Couture’s gym doing a seminar for Neil Melanson, and then Randy wanted Billy to come in and give Chael some pointers right before. It's got to be crazy. **Sonny:** Wow. **Jake:** Yes, was probably like a fly in the wall on that room. **Sonny:** That's a historic moments. **Jake:** Yes, it's cool. **Sonny:** I guess, tying it all up. Now for you, obviously, we’re recording this in the middle of a global pandemic, so there's not much happening at the moment. For you, what are your offerings now with catch? You spend a lot of time with Billy Robinson putting on seminars around the world and running training sessions with him. How was that and how did that evolve into what you're offering now or what can people do to pursue it through you? **Jake:** In about, geez, I guess it was 2004. I think it was 2004, that's when I first started talking with Karl Gotch and he really started helping me, mentoring in my coaching. It wasn't enough and I definitely didn't have any of the good technical stuff the catch-- truly really, really technical stuff of catch wrestling. I thought I did but I had no idea. I had zero now that I look back. I would do good. I can hold my hand. When I started learning from Billy it's when everything changed. Karl was giving me more strategy ideas, how to run practice, how to motivate the guys, that kind of stuff. When I started working with Billy it was all hands on and it was actually pretty fucking high pressure because I brought Billy out originally in 2006, which was actually kind of a quid pro quo between me and Josh Barnett. I had hooked Josh up with Karl for a magazine shoot for one of the sport magazines out of Japan and later on he was like, "Hey, you know Billy Robinson?" "Yes, of course." "Can you hook me up?" He's like, "Yes no problem." Josh is one of the greatest guys ever. Anyway I brought Billy out and we just really hit it off. I'm sure it had to do with my exposure to Karl before get my sensibility straight about things. Man, I spent seven years with Billy Robinson as his right hand man. And basically I had to do everything because he was physically broken down. People could see the videos. He was in awful shape by the end of his life, in a lot of pain. I had to do everything and man it was a quick learning curve because he is a perfectionist and not patient. He'll hit you with the cane or call you curse words or whatever. I'm having to learn there with this guy as my headmaster and you in a room full of like alpha males wanting to learn how to kill each other. That was my school. Like how to coach and I did that for seven years. I look at it almost like one of those internships in the medieval guilds. It took seven years to become a master, whatever. I paid my dues with Billy for seven years touring around. Anyway hundreds and hundreds of hours with him on the mat learning how to coach. **Sonny:** Now you run coaching clinics, coaching sessions, is that--? **Jake:** Yes, I've been really lucky to be able to keep that going and I've had a lot of really great friends, guys who are 1,000 times better me. Guys like Josh Barnett and guys like Wade Charles that also go out with me in tour. You were saying like what am I doing? I've been doing this coaching thing for probably-- Billy and I started in 2007. He died in 2014 and then I've kept it going. It's been going for a minute. Like 13 years or whatever. Right before all this lockdown stuff happened, I got a call speaking to Danaher, speaking to Gordon Ryan and all those guys. I got a call or an email from a BJJ Fanatics and just out of the blue they're like, "Hey, man you want to do an instructional?" I was like, "What? Me?" They're like, "Yes." I guess somehow they heard. I probably should find out why they even asked me. I flew out there and we did a two DVD set in Boston for them and flew out to their studios. Me and Sam Kressin who's my right-hand man. He's been with me probably the longest. He's a really tough guy. Great catch wrestler, great coach. BJJ, black belt third degree and then Chris Heller. Cool dude but very hardcore about catch wrestling too. We flew out there and filmed these videos and then the lockdown happened. I know that they've been saying that my-- I asked them and they sent me in quote. I’m quoting what they said that "it's selling very well with an exclamation point!" I was happy to hear that because I feel like I'm a nobody, so to have him selling well was really exciting to me. The problem is, is the same thing that everybody else is probably experiencing that gives a shit about this sport is just utter fucking frustration. The people that own businesses that also love the sport are probably having more than frustration. They're probably having despair, fucking anger and sadness because a business is shut and stuff. It's been hard for me too because I rely on gyms. That's who I sell to. They bring me out and I do seminars or I do training camps or whatever and these gyms have just been decimated by all this. On one hand, I'm really excited because my DVD came out and everybody is stuck at home and has to watch it, but on the other hand I'm like ready to go. I'm like, "Come on, man. Let’s get going." The other thing is, is as an athlete or even as a coach you have a shelf life. There's only a certain amount of time you got to do these things. These are my prime years for coaching. I just want to get to it. **Sonny:** I hope to check out the BJJ Fanatics stuff myself. Hopefully one day when it all clears up and normality's resumed, hopefully we can start training the gyms today and I can get out and go to one of your seminars and check out what you're doing in person. I think that'd be great. **Jake:** Man, I'd love to come out to Australia man and do that. Harry Tamura is in that too. He's really into catch wrestling. It's just how catch wrestling is. You end up having a small hardcore group of people, but in a place like Australia that's going to be even smaller because you're just- population is as big, it's like say the United States. **Sonny:** Yes, I know Harry, I've done some seminars with him. He's a great guy. **Jake:** I think one of the things that I'm excited for is- especially with that BJJ Fanatics deal is, I know they are-- clearly it's in their name. That's where they came from. They're massively successful. Their market is a thousand times bigger than my market in catch wrestling and that's BJJ. What I've been loving is that I am not built like Ken Shamrock. I'm like the opposite. I'm like a beanpole. I'm a really tall, lanky, thinner guy. What I'm excited to see is-- and some of the feedback I've been getting on the BJJ Fanatics site for the sales page, is that people's mind are blown how technical and non-brute force oriented catch-as-catch-can really can be. Then it's very much. It's mean and nasty as hell. There's no getting over that but you don't need a lot of muscle or anything. It's all truly scientific. It's leverage, it's torque, it's angles, it’s timing. It's very technical sport. That's one of the things that I've been really excited to see is that stereotype that you were talking about earlier. Hopefully, I'm doing that a little bit and having people see it in a slightly different way. **Sonny:** Man, that'll be awesome to see that happen. I think it's certainly possible and I like your ideas with the shoot pro wrestling. That's got some great-- I think the concept's great and then using that as a training system-- **Jake:** Now that I know that you guys have the smoke machine and a DJ. You guys get to come in like every month dude. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] I know. Probably the first person I'll call will be Nikki and I'll be like, "Nikki, you want to lose," what I just realized. You started something. \[chuckles\] She wanted it to be the biggest. At the time I was like, "Really, a smoke machine?" Now-- **Jake:** It's awesome. That's how you do it. **Sonny:** I came home, it was great. It was like, "Yes." It was actually pretty cool. **Jake:** Yes, and here we are talking about like months or years later or whatever. It's truly epic. \[crosstalk\] **Sonny:** Now that you mentioned it. **Jake:** You get your guys involved **Sonny:** It was great. I also hope that the negotiations in the future between Gordon Ryan, whichever wrestler he takes on next, I'm sure there'll be someone. We got to get in the ears of the wrestler and say, "Hey, ask for a pin." **Jake:** Yes. I'd love to see a funk style wrestler like an Askren in his prime. That would be a really fun exciting match to watch. It's harder to pin somebody and you think. It's funny because the other thing is that a lot of times back in the day any way you heard the story of how Rickson Gracie beat Mark Charles, who's a friend of mine. I've heard him tell the tale and it's not told in the same way when you hear from Mark's perspective. Mark was scared to death because they said anything goes. He was scared, he thought this guy was going to bite him and kill him or rip his throat out. Mark was freaked out he goes in there and he ends up getting Hickson and guess what? A cradle, and holds Hickson for a half-hour. I know everybody talks like, "Oh, yes, wrestling is not good for street defense or anything." I mean, he held Hickson Gracie in one position that he couldn't mount an offence from for a half-hour. Hickson won because Mark's group gave after holding a cradle for a half hour and then Hickson crawled around and he got to choke. That's a guy who doesn't know any submission whatsoever really. We were talking about how difficult wrestling can be and sometimes people will tap. Normal, like your average Jiu-Jitsu, maybe blue belt would tap to something that is just a pin for a normal collegiate wrestler or whatever just because it's really uncomfortable and painful. Mark Schultz and Dave Schultz both excellent gold medalist, World Champion wrestlers, they-- **Sonny:** Mark Schultz breaking the arm of someone with a double wrist lock would be \[crosstalk\] **Jake:** Yes, in the finals, but they Dave and Mark, both worked their way all the way up using the Schultz headlock, which was really choking everybody out and the rest didn't know. That's something you always have to remember too that there's a lot of stuff going on in wrestling and the refs don't even know. You know what I mean? That there are submissions or nasty moves happening, and it's just the ref doesn't even have a clue about what's going on. The Schultz headlock is a perfect example of a submission that comes to folkstyle wrestling, and it's 100% of submission. It'll knock you out as much as any blood choke. **Sonny:** It seems like the wrestling, catch wrestling, the Jiu-Jitsu grappling, the promotion side and making money, and the training side, it's interlinked. There's no way around it. It'll be comfortably going. **Jake:** It truly is the best business. It's the greatest business in the world if you're a bit of a dude with a little bit of testosterone. You get awesome friends, then you could start making money and then all you do is bullshit about it. It's like the great-- If you could figure out how to make a living in this business, it's one of the best businesses to be in. It's hard, yes, but it's great if you're into it. **Sonny:** No doubt. Jake, it's been an awesome conversation. I've liked every moment of it going through all those historical tidbits. If people want to get in touch with you, if people want to follow you, how do they go about doing that? **Jake:** Well, the main hub of everything I do, I try to put it on www.scientificwrestling.com. I've filmed a bunch of stuff, recorded a bunch of stuff, whether it's historical or instructional, and written a bunch of stuff, and a lot of it is available there. That's probably the easiest way. In terms of social media, I'm just going to be honest, I'm just not one of these guys that wants to do something six times. I just focus on one instead of trying to do some on YouTube and some on Facebook. I'm just an Instagram guy. I've just kind of settled there. I found a medium that fits my style. Instagram is probably the thing I update the most and there's just a shit, ton of stuff I post on Instagram from obviously, stupid jokes and memes and stuff like that. Technique clips, or historical, all these old historical photos of these holds that had been going by a couple hundred years at least that we had photos of. Instagram, and I think that's just Scientific Wrestling. Just @ScientificWrestling on Instagram. **Sonny:** Awesome. Scientific Wrestling on Instagram and check out the instructionals up at BJJ Fanatics. **Jake:** Yes, and if you go to the Instagram, I have it in the LinkedIn bio or whatever, the BJJ thing. If you just want to go straight to that, just go to the Instagram. It's easier. **Sonny:** Awesome. Jake, thanks very much for coming on the show. Wonderful conversation and hopefully we can we can do it sometime. **Jake:** Yes, Sonny. Man, you're the man. I really appreciate everything you're doing. I love watching your YouTube channel in particular, but just keep it up, man. **Sonny:** Thank you. **Jake:** Catch wrestling is really interesting. Once you get bit by the bug, man, it's like, "Ooof." It's worse than COVID-19. **Sonny:** \[laughs\] Yes, I just see all those little rabbit holes, they just keep going down. It's fascinating stuff. Thank you. I appreciate it a lot and thanks so much. ![The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon - Scieintific Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jakeshannon_tsbb_promo.jpg "jakeshannon_tsbb_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Denis Kelly On Life Lessons from the Worlds Longest Lockdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/denis-kelly-mma-life-lessons-lockdown/) **Published:** February 15, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Denis Kelly MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/denis_kelly_acsa-1024x576.jpg "Denis Kelly MMA › Sonny Brown")I talk to Denis Kelly, who runs the [Australian Combat Sports Academy](https://acsamelbourne.com.au/ "https://acsamelbourne.com.au/") in Melbourne and has a Black Belt in BJJ, Zen Do Kai Karate and has fought MMA professionally while training worldwide. We discussed his online teaching experience after his state just came out of the world's longest lockdown, where Melbourne was under curfew, and he could not operate his gym. Still, he persisted with teaching online lessons the entire time. We also discussed what he learned during that period regarding [club culture](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-champions-team-culture/ "Greg Nelson on Coaching MMA Champions, Positive Culture and Conquering Cancer") and teamwork and what helped him endure those difficult times. ### Listen to Denis Kelly ### YouTube ### Timestamps \[00:00\] - Introduction to Episode 035 \[03:42\] - Returning to Full Contact Training \[05:24\] - Black Belts He Has \[07:10\] - His Backstory \[09:40\] - The Reality of Fighter Lifestyle \[12:49\] - Chris Brennan as an Instructor \[14:15\] - Academies Denis Has Trained At \[16:04\] - His First MMA Fight \[19:04\] - His Advice to Aspiring Fighters \[22:18\] - The Secret to Getting BJ Penn’s Flexibility \[23:18\] - Keep Putting In Effort Until You Get To the Top \[26:43\] - The Downside of the Sports Industry Which People Miss Out \[34:01\] - What Kept Him Motivated to Train Continuously Even During the Lockdown \[37:34\] - His Suggestions to Gym Owners Considering Doing Online Classes \[43:13\] - No Online Training Can Replace the Physical Contact in Jiu-Jitsu Training \[44:43\] - A Good Structure for Online Classes \[46:33\] - What Kept Him Motivated to Continue Online Classes \[49:03\] - Ways to Make the Training Enjoyable \[52:29\] - Your Training Partner’s Performance Affects Your Performance \[54:05\] - The Overly Competitive Environment Is Not Good \[55:27\] - Do Not Worry About Sounding Like a Broken Record \[57:14\] - How He Sets up Expectations of Young Fighters \[59:33\] - Is Full-Time Training Necessary? \[01:02:38\] - What Is He Looking Forward To? ### Topics ### Being A Profesional MMA Fighter #### Techniques Are Changing With Time Denis says the sport is changing every year or even within a year. The techniques that worked six months ago won't work now or next year. So, it's like an unpredictable sport. #### The Two Sides Of Continuously Changing Sport The sport in the 2000s was not like how today it is. And they're probably two sides to it. In some ways, people who are just getting into fighting have a little of an advantage that we didn't have back in those days. Now you can find out a lot more about the sport. You can find out about what the fights look like, what the opponents look like, even what year what kind of training you should be doing. So, if you're a new fighter getting into it, you can almost tell exactly what you need to do to be successful. And the other side of it is if people are getting into it and want to be a fighter, they probably don't see everything that's going to go into it. They see successful people. They see Conor McGregor doing this and that and anything and think if I keep training, that will be me as well, but they don't see all the extra work or the boring stuff that goes into it. #### A Hazardous Sport It is such a hazardous sport to get into if you're looking for fame. Because no matter what happens, at the end of the day, someone is waiting with a shin kick to their head or trying some moves. There're a lot of other hobbies that you could be undertaking to get famous. #### The Downside Of the Sports Industry The truth that most people don't realize about fighting is that in other sports, like football or tennis. If you're pretty good at these sports, but then you're slowly deteriorating, you're probably not going to get invited back to the big matches or the big tournaments. Whereas with fighting, as long as you used to be a good fighter ten years ago, you'll still get invited back to get knocked out by the next up and coming kid. And it's easy. You can see like promoters probably sweet talk the guy to get them in there, and you get your career back on the road. That's the downside of it that people miss out on. ### Online Jiu-Jitsu Training #### Tip For Gym Owners: Focus On Beginners He says, during the period of the second lockdown, he just focused on complete beginners. Because he thinks that people who have already been doing Jiu-Jitsu for a while want to do Gi or No-Gi moves, and you can't do any of that stuff in online Training. So, the second time around, we focused on the pure beginners, just showing them that this is mount position, this is how we do Armbar for a month, how to do Americana for a month, this is side control etc., He tells about his training module by saying, "We're basically the second time around. We're going to do just two Jiu-Jitsu classes a week, but it's perfect for people who've never done Jiu-Jitsu before. We can tell them when this (pandemic) is all over when the war is over, and we can start training again." #### Teach Beginners With A Dummy It's probably easier for beginners to learn it on a dummy because they're not worried about accidentally breaking the new guy's arm on the first day, so they don't mind doing it slightly wrong. #### Online Training Can't Replace Physical Training. The majority of Jiu-Jitsu people who have been doing Jiu-Jitsu for more than one year are doing it because they like physical contact. So really, no amount of online drilling is going to replace that for them. But people who are in the zero to one year range can benefit from training with dummies and getting stuff explained to them. If they're doing it appropriately, they'll benefit when they first start doing an actual physical impairment. ### ACSA MMA Club Culture #### Making The Training An Enjoyable Activity Making the training an enjoyable activity comes with the attitude of the coaches as well. There's a lot of different things we can do through games. He says, "People take the fight seriously, but I see it mostly as an enjoyable activity. Sometimes people get caught up in a life or death struggle and you're defending yourself from samurais or ninjas or whatever. Whereas the reality is that, what we're really doing is play-fighting and it's just an elaborate form of play-fighting. So if you can keep that attitude, then that sort of transfers into your classes and into your training and people tend to enjoy it more." #### A Cooperative Community Is Going To Work Out Better He says, "There're gyms where it becomes too competitive when the coach is pushing for a win at all cost kind of mentality. I think it's okay for a little while. You get good short-term results, but then the fighters are sort of sabotaged in each fight because they want the coach's attention. So this guy doesn't want to spar with this guy. This person doesn't want to roll with this person. This person doesn't want to show their moves because everybody's okay for that number one spot. And then eventually it all falls apart, and everybody leaves and goes their separate ways. And then it's starting from scratch again. So I think making sure that kind of cooperative community is going to work out better." It may seem counterintuitive, but if everyone is helping each other and having fun, better competitors can come from that. Or maybe a more consistent or wider range of competitors can come from it. #### Do Not Worry About Sounding Like A Broken Record Referring to the dilemma of whether to tell or not your [training partner](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) about improvement in their techniques or postures, he says, "If things need to be said, you probably need to repeat them a lot. And the only thing is that, sometimes the first time someone hears it, it might not make any sense to them or might not be relevant. But you should not be worried about sounding like a broken record." #### Is A Full Day Training Necessary? Training for all those individual kinds of [martial arts styles,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) it's going to be time-consuming. He says, "I would advise people, don't quit your day job. My general advice is until you're getting paid the same amount per year, as a fighter, as what you would be getting from your job, Do not quit your job. If you need to get to a really good level at Jiu-Jitsu, striking on tape guns, etc., that's going to cost money. If you're looking at Rocky where he trains poor kids for $1, then don't get your hopes up. That's realistically not going to happen anywhere in the world. Unless you're already a really good, well-rounded martial artist, you'll have to pay someone to teach you. And it's going to be very difficult to do that. If you don't have a job, then there's a lot of other expenses. You're probably not going to get paid for your first fight unless you're getting paid to lose. You're probably not going to get paid much for your first 10 or 15 fights. If you're always low on money, if you're always broke, you'll probably have to take short notice fights just for money. Those short-notice fights will probably be the ones where you get an authored, or you get an injury, and then that sets back your career. So, there're a lot of good reasons not to quit your job, to focus on fighting." ### Resources #### Quotes > "You want your training partner to get better because that's going to make you better." > > - Denis Kelly > "The tough thing is that people don't realize that you put in all that effort. And if you get a good result, if you win a fight, then your reward is that you get a tougher opponent the next time. Then you have to put in twice as much effort. And then you have to keep consistently doing that and find better and better people until you eventually get to the top." > > - Denis Kelly > "If things need to be said, you probably need to repeat them a lot." > > - Denis Kelly > "The more you spar, the shorter your career is gonna be." > > - Denis Kelly #### Links - [ACSA Melbourne Website](https://acsamelbourne.com.au/ "https://acsamelbourne.com.au/") - [Denis Kelly Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/denis_kelly_mma/?hl=en) - [ACSA Melbourne Facebook Page](https://www.facebook.com/acsamelbourne/) - [Denis Kelly Linked In](https://www.linkedin.com/in/denis-kelly-0064b6147/?originalSubdomain=au) - [Denis Kelly MMA Coaching Website](http://www.dkmmacoaching.com/) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Denis Kelly](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_deniskelly_promo-1024x1024.jpg "tsbb_deniskelly_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Offence vs Defence for Jiu-Jitsu With Priit Mihkelson & School Of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/offence-vs-defence-grappling-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** April 10, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Offence vs Defence For Jiu-Jitsu Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/offense_defense_debate_bjj-1024x576.jpg "Offense vs Defense › Sonny Brown")The debate over Offence Vs Defence for Jiu-Jitsu is always interesting, and on this special debate episode of "The Sonny Brown Breakdown," I was joined by two guests who went into battle for the respective sides. With [School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/developing-intuition-with-the-school-of-grappling/) taking the side of offence and [Priit Mihkelson ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-of-3d-treening/)being on the defence side. So what's more important in the battle between offence vs defence? Well, In the seminal 1997 action film "Double Team" starring Jean Claude Van Damme and Dennis Rodman, the following exchange takes place... **JCVD:** Offence gets the glory... **RODMAN:** ...But defence wins the game With the issue being reasonably broad, it takes some interesting turns from a general conceptual overview of the topic to practical applications of the technique, the learning and [teaching of grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/). Andy and Priit had a great conversation so check it out on your favourite podcast app to listen to how it went down! ### **LISTEN TO THE OFFENcE VS DEFENcE DEBATE** **Website:** [https://bit.ly/3t1B5yp](https://bit.ly/3t1B5yp?fbclid=IwAR3wNKhd5UgiOzQupugNqjWHccuBOTgoMEHnD_9MAsSwXuwp-6ol0VQdYV0) **Apple:** [https://apple.co/325v9bT](https://apple.co/325v9bT?fbclid=IwAR2Nc5ViDkxxPUAtp38cPZ9qAJZz8KXTCkinnHDqnWb3kxzHr1zwDXTN-AM) **Spotify:** [https://spoti.fi/3s5M34O](https://spoti.fi/3s5M34O?fbclid=IwAR3DqPD4jBKh2MWaLNZBmrtMkjeYtA7F7k0NstiIRd_cbHDT7s0qFPijAQo) ### YouTube ## Timestamps \[04:28\] - How they decided about the debate \[07:10\] - In any combat sport, you should know both offence and defence \[09:38\] - Chess is a perfect archetype for every combat sport \[12:35\] - The only thing that the offensive player can attain \[13:45\] - Priit's views on the necessity of offence and defence in combat sports \[18:00\] - Defense that drives the evolution of the offence \[23:33\] - The dialectic relationship between defence and offence \[25:35\] - How Andy structure his classes \[30:20\] - How Priit structures classes for beginners \[37:17\] - Defence is understudied that its information is not optimal \[39:26\] - Defence doesn't come as naturally as offence \[41:09\] - Make sure to have defence while practising offence backwards \[44:44\] - Incorporate the defence into your offence \[47:01\] - How to shift your defensive move to offensive \[48:30\] - How to [pull guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) from Turtle position? \[53:55\] - A little bit of fear isn't always a bad thing \[57:22\] - Make people get bored, then it's easy to make them offensive \[1:03:00\] - Create an incentive for people to accept the defensive state \[1:06:28\] - The outside to inside blocks in Jiu-Jitsu \[1:14:04\] - People have a fear of not knowing \[1:20:10\] - Getting your back flat on the mat \[1:23:14\] - Andy’s background in wrestling \[1:25:10\] - Why Priit loves defence \[1:30:09\] - Should offence be taught by setting a base posture of defence \[1:33:05\] - Teaching to re-attack immediately after defence ## Topics #### **Be Skillful in Both Offence and Defence** **ANDY:** "First of all, I want to point out that it's stupid to say that only offence or defence is important. Every practitioner in any combat sport has to be skilful in both offence and defence. And to make my point, I come up with two perspectives to explain why I think both offence and defence is essential. The first question is, what came first, the weapon or the shield? And just historically, it's pretty obvious that the weapon came hundreds of 1000 years before the first shields got invented. Because the shield is just a response to the SWAT. You have to understand what can hurt you, where you have to protect yourself from and what you have to protect yourself. And in that sense, take the SWAT as an archetype for all offensive weapons. It had to be first for the shield to evolve and to become important at some point. And another point, if we look at this duality of SWAT and shield, ask yourself what you carry in your primary hand and your right hand. For most people, it's the SWAT. The shield is carried in your left hand (your less important hand, so to say). So, this can explain well where the humans naturally see the great importance of the shield. So that's like the first point I want to make about the SWAT and shield from a more martial and combative context. And the second point I want to make is chess. Because I feel like chess is a perfect archetype for every combat that is concerned about space and time. So in chess, there are a lot of terms that are very useful for general thoughts and tactics. And the first one is initiative. Initiative in chess is when the one player cannot ignore the threats the other player poses to him, and he has to respond. That's why it's said that a wise person starts with initiative in chess because he makes the first move. So by making the first move, he gained the tempo. Temp is like a measure of time in chess. It's like, the amount of turns you did. And just by starting by being the guy who attacks, you can win around 55% of the matches. So it's not a game at the highest level that's 50:50 white and black. But that's more like 55 to 45. And white; it is said that white has the advantage because it has the initiative. And it always is one up on tempo. So it's like we start with more time to do our stuff. And a really simple idea may be to see how that is important in conduct. For example, if we look at boxing, and I jab you, you have to respond. Your response can be manifold. You can block. You can parry. You can evade. Maybe you can even counterattack, but you have to respond in some way. Because if you don't, you just get hit. So in many ways, what Black actually tries to do in chess, is to either hope that white makes a mistake and loses tempo." #### **Make Your Defence Solid** **PRIIT: "**People should concentrate on something, but my idea is understudied. I think the offence is necessary. I enjoy the rules and pressure, but I think it's a weird dichotomy that you can pressure more if you have a good defence. You actually are more aggressive. I know you guys agree that you're actually more aggressive when your defence is solid. That means how deep you would have to go to the defensive side and what would be the level you would reach your optimal level of aggression. If your defence is not solid, you will not be optimal. You will always hold back a bit or even over commit. And that makes the risk a little bit too expensive. So how much time should you spend on defence? Because I don't think it's 50:50 (defence 50 and attack 50). I'm all about the attack because the attack constantly evolves to a certain level. Attack evolves naturally to a certain level, and then it stops because there's no resistance anymore. And then people start to counter study it, how to defend it. So for the attack to reach its full potential, even with the microscopic advancements, it needs resistance. It needs defence. And in that sense, I'm honest about it when I say that, figuring out how the defence could be the best that it can be, we can reach better, optimal results potential when that's coming to attack. And we can weed out not working attacks because the defence can do that. It's not going to be like one is left, like let's talk about the far side armbar from side control. It's not like one version is left. But we will definitely have fewer versions left if the defence would be optimal, and then we could spend our time practising those fewer options, or far side armbar, then our time will be better spent. So, it is actually the defence that drives the evolution of offence. And that's what pushes offence forward, and without that development of defence, then the offence will never reach its true potential." #### **The Dialectic Relationship Between Defence and Offence** **ANDY:** "We need a better defence to get the better offence and in return. We need a better offence to get a better defence. That's how actual progress is achieved. Even in science or in politics, we have a theory, then it gets attacked stronger than it has to make its point stronger, and this is like an ongoing, infinite cycle of progress." #### **Teaching Submissions to Beginners** **PRIIT:** "We mostly teach the beginners submissions because it's easier for them to relate to it because they've seen it probably in UFC and other stuff. That's not the only reason to do that, but the word already said that they need to understand the end goal. And also, when we do a lot of, let's say, [progressive resistance](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) drills, let's say, an armbar. The other beginner is struggling, and you do [progressive resistance](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/). So to find the tap, the other person learns to be calm but responsible. And not freaking out in submission and then tapping. And that's also a good [lesson another person learns](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/) to control the lock-in and range and not freak out." #### **How to shift from a defensive to an offensive position** **PRIIT:** "So what I think, as a visual, I want to make people as bored as possible, or as safe as possible. So when they start to get bored, then I can try to attack them. So in a cartoonish way, it would be like that I want you to be safe enough not to be afraid to try." #### **Should offence be taught by setting a base posture of defence**? **ANDY: "**My problem with that is defence in itself is not intentional. It is absolutely directionless. It has no sense outside or no meaning in isolation. That's my problem with defence. It's like an attack has, as an aim. It's like, I have a purpose. I want to do X. But the purpose of the defence, like the SWAT and sheet, will always be to respond to the purposeful attack of somebody else. I know that you are very familiar with my ideas on intuition and your human movement. And I feel like intention and direction is something intrinsic to human movement. And we organize ourselves, our movements, to achieve a purposeful and intentional goal. That's why we cannot get students to form a tremendous defensive posture. Because they lack the purpose behind the posture, they will not be able to harness the power of, let's say, autoregulation and self-organization. That's why I think we have to start with purpose in movement. Also, usually, offensive action is way more purposeful in itself. And defensive action can only be understood with offensive action in mind." ## Offence Vs Defence Resources ### Quotes "Every skilful practitioner in any [combat sport](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/) has to know and be skilful in both offence and defence." "Every offensive action has to be diff has to be defensive in some way. And every defensive action has to be offensive." "Attack is the secret of defence. Defence is the planning of an attack." ### Links - [Priit Mihkelson Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/priit_mihkelson/ "Priit Mihkelson Instagram") - [School Of Grappling Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/schoolofgrappling/ "School Of Grappling Instagram") - [Defensive BJJ](https://www.defensivebjj.com/ "Defensive BJJ") - [School Of Grappling](https://schoolofgrappling.com/ "School Of Grappling") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Offence Vs Defence Debate for Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/debate_promo-1024x1024.jpg "debate_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Tum Voorn On An Inquiry-Based Instructional Strategy of Learning Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/tum-voorn-bjj-inquiry-based-learning/) **Published:** June 2, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Tum Energia Voorn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tum_energia_voorn-1024x576.jpg "Tum Energia Voorn › Sonny Brown")I talk to Tum Voorn who is a Jiu-Jitsu Practitioner with a Capoeria background and who also trained as a school teacher. We discuss inquiry-based learning, an instructional strategy that he describes as "Teaching Without Telling" and how he applies it in a grappling context. Also, what obstacles it may have in its implementation, how to overcome them and the benefits of its use in a Jiu-Jitsu class. We also relate this to forming a positive club culture by encouraging student feedback and, finally how leg locks can play into this [pedagogy](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki"). > “Sometimes the best thing to do is actually ask the right questions at the right time, and have people find their own solutions to the problem.” > > - Tum Voorn Table Of Contents 1. [Listen To Tum Voorn](#listen-to-tum-voorn) - [Apple](#apple) - - [Google](#google) - - [Spotify](#spotify) - - [YouTube](#youtube) 2. [Timestamps](#timestamps) 3. [Topics](#topics) - [Applying teaching without telling into grappling](#applying-teaching-without-telling-into-grappling) - - [Intuition Learning](#intuition-learning) - - [Recreational training](#recreational-training) - - [Creating a culture of the ability to fail](#creating-a-culture-of-the-ability-to-fail) - - [The idea of not correcting students too much](#the-idea-of-not-correcting-students-too-much) - - [Show them instead of talking](#show-them-instead-of-talking) - - [Moving into a facilitator’s role as a teacher](#moving-into-a-facilitators-role-as-a-teacher) - - [There’s no interaction in instructional videos](#theres-no-interaction-in-instructional-videos) 4. [Tum Voorn Resources](#tum-voorn-resources) - [Tum Voorn Quotes](#tum-voorn-quotes) - - [Tum Voorn Links](#tum-voorn-links) ## Listen To Tum Voorn ### Apple ### Google ### Spotify ### YouTube ## Timestamps \[00:00\] - Introduction to Episode 41 \[02:58\] - Tum’s Background Story \[08:05\] - Why Did He Start Teaching \[09:53\] - Applying the “Teaching Without Telling” Method to Grappling Setting \[13:12\] - How to Teach Grappling to a Beginner \[15:03\] - Teaching Submission Step by Step \[17:53\] - Let Them Solve the Problem by Starting off With the Why \[19:00\] - How to Self Evolve? \[23:59\] - The Idea of Not Correcting Students Too Much \[27:38\] - Ask Questions to Let the Students Know About Their Fault \[33:58\] - Making Things Easy Isn’t Necessarily the Best Way to Improve \[34:48\] - How Tum Gives Small Guidelines to His Students to Make Them Improve \[36:18\] - Belt Promotions With Demo \[40:18\] - The Situation of Asking an Obscure Question on a Particular Move \[42:20\] - Facilitating and Creating an Environment That Benefits Growth \[44:29\] - Where Do YouTube Jiu-Jitsu Videos Lack \[49:07\] - Fun and Competition Approach of Jiu-Jitsu \[51:50\] - About Capoeira \[56:37\] - Creating a Culture of the Ability to Fail \[58:00\] - Giving Proper Feedback to People \[1:03:33\] - Create an Environment Where It’s Okay to Ask Questions \[1:07:43\] - The Artistic, Creative, and Problem-Solving Side of Jiu-Jitsu \[1:14:48\] - Being Open to Improvement \[1:18:09\] - Answering a Problem With a New Problem \[1:24:00\] - Relate Different Techniques, Positions or Guards to Make It a System \[1:29:47\] - His Approach of Making Jiu-Jitsu Videos ## Topics #### **Applying teaching without telling into grappling** Tum says he likes Teaching without telling. Instead of just giving the instructions or monkey see monkey do, what he does is divide the class into groups and subgroups which has both fast learners and slow learners. He teaches by looking at the individuals eventually, and trying to make them better at the sport and having them understand what it is that they are doing, and what it is that they're trying to achieve by asking more questions and less telling. He explains that by giving an example, “what I did in the classroom from an early age with elementary school is when kids ask you questions like, teacher where can I find this? Or where can I find the scissors? Then it's super convenient to just give them the answers like it’s over here or I'll get it or just take it over there. But it's way better to just ask the questions like, okay, where did you last put it? What's the usual place? Where would you expect them to be? And through those small ways of answering questions with questions, instead of just giving the answer, I try to improve them. Sometimes the best thing to do is actually ask the right questions at the right time, and have people find their own solutions to the problem. So instead of just giving all the answers to the hundreds of 1000s techniques, I would rather give some a point of view and a method of thinking to how to solve these problems, which can be then applied to several position situations and techniques in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.” #### **Intuition Learning** Let the people come up with their own rewards, values and answers. In this way, they're much more likely to grow and learn. Because it's pretty impossible to come up with all the answers as one person, no matter how much you know about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or another given subject. And also, if you combine all the problems solving minds of all the people in the room, then together, you get so much more information and so much more possibilities of the outcome. #### **Recreational training** Tum tells, “last week, I had my students come up with a winning technique. They really like the small techniques where the instructions are not more than a minute, and they [teach it to one of the other students](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/). Then they switch around. For example, you choose to explain to me an Ezekiel choke. And I choose to explain a Triangle choke. So you teach me your way of doing Ezekiel. And I teach you my way of doing the triangle, and then we switch. You get to another student, but you still teach this same Ezekiel, like 5, 10 or 20 times. And every time you explain this to someone, you evolve yourself by thinking about the steps. You are explaining a technique to someone, and you then have a moment like, Hey, I automatically always do this. But why do I put my hand out? And as you are going through the steps, you yourself are thinking about this technique that you do so often in sparring. And now having the time to reflect on what it is exactly what you’re doing. If people like training, if people like drilling, if people like sparring, then they are more open to learning, and they will grow faster. Tum says, “I'm a strong believer of having people motivated and enthusiastic for the sport and for what it is they're doing. And then learning will come by itself.” #### **Creating a culture of the ability to fail** Failure is a necessary process and it's one of the best teachers out there. Tum says, “don't overload your students with all the details. Because if you haven't experienced the problem, then the solution is pointless and worthless. So have them experience these problems, have them experience failure, have them correct themselves and be their own teacher because that's the best way for drilling and learning.” #### **The idea of not correcting students too much** Tum says, “Obviously, safety is the number one priority. So someone explained something wrong, and it is a risk for safety or is a risk for injury, then obviously, I will step in and correct them to prevent injuries or other accidents from happening. But besides that, I would just let them go through it and see that they do not get the proper tap. I would urge the other student to just let them try and solve it themselves. And usually, they come up with the answer. If not, I would step in and ask a question. I wouldn't say, Hey, you have to get one arm out. I would say okay, why is the choke not working? What exactly is the strangle? What are you trying to strangle what part of your body is strangling his one? And then the students would find out that Oh, okay, the two arms is the problem by just having me ask the question.” #### **Show them instead of talking** It's easier to [teach them by showing the techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) instead of talking and that's also a problem with a lot of teachers or especially in schools as well. It's sometimes so easy to just give the answer. That's convenient and good for your class, you can work what you thought you will work on that day or that specific week or month. And it just makes everything easier. But easier isn't necessarily the best way to improve. Tum says, “sometimes I call the whole group and ask Hey, what are the questions? What are the things you bump into? I call that troubleshooting. So we just did the technique. Before we go on, I first ask them, What did you walk into? What did you bump into? Then if no one can answer my questions then I say okay, this is what I saw, this is what I bumped into. Then we continue with the technique or the system of that month. If they have any questions, I never answer them just as a question. I always say show me the question, don't speak to me. Then they answer the question themselves on some occasions, as they start explaining, they just stop mid-sentence to say, oh wait, I forgot I have to take one out. Okay, I answered my own question. Thank you.” #### **Moving into a facilitator’s role as a teacher** He says, “We're currently looking way more at teaching methods. Sometimes the mat space is a classroom, where you just listen to the teacher. Sometimes the mat space is a laboratory where you get to experiment with things. And sometimes the classroom is a play garden, we just get to play to spar with some friends. And having these different environments I think is really good because out of your class out of those people, everyone responds differently. Everyone has different learning methods, some people react really good to visual explanations. I'm just a facilitator, and maybe a form of guideline. But I'm not a master, by any means on anything in life. Because I think facilitating and creating an environment that benefits and stimulates learning and growth is way more important than being the central person and telling everyone what and how to do it.” #### **There’s no interaction in instructional videos** There's a great benefit of YouTube and instructionals videos. But one thing that's clearly missing is, we cannot ask the why and we cannot interact with the group. I think one of the most important things in teaching is interacting with the group, watching their interest, watching if they get bored, watching how they react, having them ask questions, having them see the problem from different angles, etc. That's almost impossible to do in an instructional. YouTube, for example, is a perfect way where you can show the monkey see monkey do. You can explain the why behind the technique and you can answer it yourself or you can ask it in the comments. But it's more so of a demonstration.” ## Tum Voorn Resources ### Tum Voorn Quotes > “Patience is a big part of teaching.” > > - Tum Voorn > “Failure is a necessary teacher and is one of the best teachers.” > > - Tum Voorn > “There's never normally black and white, it's always the shades of grey.” > > - Tum Voorn ### Tum Voorn Links - [Energia Martial Arts](https://energia-martialarts.com "https://energia-martialarts.com") - [Tum Voorn Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/tum.voorn "https://www.facebook.com/tum.voorn") - [Tum Voorn Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/Tumenergia/ "https://www.instagram.com/Tumenergia/") - [Energia Martial Arts YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPAm-P3ypZuwwzhDoqahqyA "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPAm-P3ypZuwwzhDoqahqyA") - [Energia Martial Arts Patreon](https://www.patreon.com/Energia_martialarts?fan_landing=true "https://www.patreon.com/Energia_martialarts?fan_landing=true") ![Inquiry-Based Instructional Strategy & Inquiry-Based Learning For Jiu-Jitsu - Tum Voorn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tum_voorn_promo-1024x1024.jpg "tum_voorn_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Erik Uresk Interview on Coaching Adversity & The Value of Vulnerability](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-uresk-interview-coaching-adversity-truth/) **Published:** June 29, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Erik Uresk Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/erik_uresk-1024x576.jpg "Erik Uresk Interview › Sonny Brown")In this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, I talk to **Erik Uresk**, a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo, a former professional MMA fighter and coach at Alliance MMA & Phuket Top Team. We discuss his start in the MMA World, how he advocates for embracing vulnerability in his training to help conquer adversity, his coaching philosophy, and how to generate trust from athletes. They also talked about the challenges he faced while working with high-level athletes, mainly Dominic Cruz (an athlete with extensive MMA knowledge). ## Listen to Erik Uresk ### YouTube ## TOPICS DISCUSSED #### **Balancing Insecurities** For him, confidence comes to preparation. Not every day is going to feel good in the gym. He believes that there is no greater confidence than overcoming adversity. But there need to be a little bit easier rounds where you can be creative like there need to be different intensities and different periods of training. It can't be like always all hard all the time. But there has to be a regular familiarity with vulnerability and discomfort in a fighter's training. #### **Get Acquainted With Vulnerability, Discomfort, and Pain** He suggests an athlete get acquainted with vulnerability, discomfort, and pain. He then justifies it by putting the questions: Can you be successful without dealing with adversity, and hiding from those vulnerabilities? Yes, you can. Can you get the most out of yourself? No, you cannot. So there's a huge difference between being successful, and winning fights. You can win fights purely based on your athleticism, but there will come a time in a place where adversity strikes you, and then how familiar will you be with that feeling. So, an athlete must get fully acquainted with vulnerability, discomfort, and pain #### **A Common Trend He Noticed With World Champions** After working with so many World Champions he noticed a common trend among them. And the trend is that they get obsessed about the stuff that they're not good at. #### **Not Every Coach Is Meant For Every Athlete** Fighting is not for everybody. It’s a rational choice. Generally a choice for the well-adjusted. It's a great opportunity to learn and forge yourself in a fashion that you might not have gotten to otherwise. But not every coach is meant for every athlete. If the coach has more passion and fire for your fight career than the athlete, then there's a problem. He says “If that's the case, I'm fine with not working with you.” #### **His journey from being a fighter to a coach** He worked with Alliance MMA, San Deigo for 4 years before moving to Bali MMA. There he felt like he was in a bad place mentally and left it after 8 months. After spending some time in the UK he went to Thailand and structured his training the best way he knew, and others started following the structure he was following, which made him kind of a proxy head coach there. During a fight camp there, he realized that he wanted to retire and step into the role of a formal head coach. Within a year of that decision, he joined Phuket Top Team. #### **The Philosophy behind the training structure** He followed the same training structure that they had at Alliance MMA in San Diego. He liked how the team did everything together, the coach had everything prescribed what everybody was going to do, there was a memory training every morning, everybody was in the gym trying to help each other. He saw all that worked and felt that this is a recipe to success. So he took all this with him to Phuket and perpetuated it. #### **How did he develop the style of grappling and boxing** Because of his [Greco-Roman wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wrestling-between-risk-taking-risk-aversion-with-coach-matt-lindland/ "Wrestling between Risk-Taking & Risk-Aversion With Coach Matt Lindland"), grinding and top pressure were always easy for him. He always understood the feel of how to immobilize people. And he got good at immobilizing people due to this. But the problem with that is in a fight, it doesn't mean much. He states you can win around by getting side control and holding the guy. You're not going to win a lot of fans that way. And then if you get tired, and the guy gets up, now your arms are full of blood, and you're not gonna be able to box. So he realized that as he started to challenge his *play it safe* mentality, he started to understand how to get positions to progress himself. So he tried to create the perfect pedigree between wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu, using the traits they both offer. #### **Why did he create the pedigree between Wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu?** Because if you look at a guy like Mike Chandler in his fight against Charles Oliveira, before getting clipped with the left hand, he was shutting down the grappling, right from the top position by not engaging in the grappling. One thing that he finds interesting is, it's largely poorly executed even at the top levels. He says it’s because when you learn jujitsu for fighting, you often learn from a guy that has trained in the IBJJF [point system](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-benefits-gi-ibjjf-points/). So if he is in a headquarters position, landing shots, does he need to pass to get to side control in an IBJJF tournament? Yes, he does. Being in headquarters is nothing, He is still actively trying to pass the guard. So he has to progress towards a finishing position. That's why the hierarchy is supposed to represent energy. This teaches that side control or side mount is better than half guard. #### **Using Legs To Create Pins** In a lot of positions that produce pins, you can't hit the person. That's not great for pursuing a finish. If we're looking to progress our position, using the arms to hold somebody down in a position. It isn't great. So he started coming up with techniques of how to use the legs to create lower body pins. So if they can't move their hips, then they can't escape and that leaves the hands free to do what he is getting paid to do (damaging the person). And then ultimately, when it's done at its best, it becomes a dance where we're kind of hovering back and forth between damage and then advancing position which could either lead to a TKO or ultimately a submission. ### ERIK URESK QUOTES “We all are afraid of losing, looking stupid, and not feeling in control to varying degrees. Whatever it is, it’s really important to confront it and not hide from it.” “You don't achieve much by telling somebody that they're wrong. What you achieve great results with is explaining why you believe, what you believe, and then showing tangible proof of its effectiveness” “When a fighter loses, you'll see whether they trust their coach or not real quick, because it's often when a lot of the blame and stuff starts to come out.” “Learning to develop and maintain trust is the most important thing in coaching.” “If your personal life is a mess, you’re gonna see that in the cage up to some degree.” “Each person has the dignity to learn from their failure.” “When you don’t know what love is, you take any positive attention as love.” “The only thing you can control is your effort. You can’t control the outcome.” ### ERIK URESK Links - <https://www.instagram.com/ericthegentleman/?hl=en> - <https://twitter.com/ericuresk?lang=en> - <https://mailchi.mp/699c2a925c7b/getting-uncomfortable-with-eric-uresk?e=e3a7986f40> ### **SEGMENTED TIMESTAMPS:** \[02:37\] - What intrigued him to become a martial artist? \[04:51\] - How and when did he start training? \[06:53\] - When did he start bouncing \[07:37\] - His first MMA fight with Frankie Edgar \[11:29\] - How did he balance his diffidence \[15:21\] - What if someone just wants to be good at training only \[17:19\] - A common trend with world champions \[19:10\] - His transition from fighter to coach \[22:39\] - The philosophy behind his training structure \[26:42\] - What is it like working with Dominic Cruz? \[30:05\] - How did he [develop the style of grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/grappling-intuition-instincts/) and boxing? \[34:28\] - The process of building trust with athletes \[42:50\] - Balancing between trust and vulnerability \[48:57\] - The value of vulnerability \[54:25\] - Attaching your identities to the fight \[58:42\] - Providing a place of safety for people to fail \[01:01:30\] - Michael Chandler vs Charles Oliveira fight \[01:27:06\] - The kind of life he lived before being an athlete \[01:12:24\] - The best way to connect to Eric ![Erik Uresk Interview Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/eric1promo-1024x1024.jpg "eric1promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Importance of Sleep While Cutting Weight for a Fight](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sleeping-while-cutting-weight-for-a-fight/) **Published:** August 11, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Tony Ferguson On Sleep While Cutting Weight For A Fight](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tony_ferguson_sleep_weight-1024x682.jpg "tony_ferguson_sleep_weight › Sonny Brown")*In this Guest Post From Dr Ian Dunican, He looks at the aftermath of [UFC 233](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_233 "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_233") where Tony Ferguson suffered an injury resulting in a missed bout and how it relates to the requirements of combat athletes to sleep while cutting weight.* Although bouts getting cancelled, card reshuffles and late replacements are not that uncommon, UFC 223 had a particularly interesting and somewhat crazy week in the lead up to the main event. Multiple changes to the fight card and the fighters as a result of injury, weight cutting issues and poor behaviour. Let’s take a look at some of the underlying physiological components that may have contributed to these changes. Table Of Contents 1. [Tony Ferguson & Unorthodox Training Methods](#tony-ferguson-unorthodox-training-methods) 2. [Sleep for Physical Repair](#sleep-for-physical-repair) 3. [Adapting For Fighting In Different Time Zones](#adapting-for-fighting-in-different-time-zones) 4. [Jet Lag & Sleep strategy](#jet-lag-sleep-strategy) ### Tony Ferguson & Unorthodox Training Methods The interim lightweight (155 lb) champion, Tony Ferguson is renowned for his all-out approach to his fight camp, including training at altitude in big bear, unorthodox strength and conditioning methods ([See Tony Ferguson kicks a steel pipe in training](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JA4CR1C_M8 "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JA4CR1C_M8")) However, training hard needs to go hand in hand with training smart. Late night sessions at 01:30 in the morning in addition to his daily strength and conditioning ([Tony Ferguson: “Late Night Sesh A Success”](https://twitter.com/tonyfergusonxt/status/978579585959829504 "https://twitter.com/tonyfergusonxt/status/978579585959829504")) may be negatively affecting the recovery process. ### Sleep for Physical Repair This is specifically the period when Non-Rapid Eye Movement (NREM) sleep should be occurring. Whilst many processes occur during sleep, this phase of NREM is predominately for “physical repair” with the release of growth hormone a vital requirement for an athlete in camp. Lack of sleep and mistiming of sleep can lead to an increase in the likelihood of injury and affects daily cognitive performance including reaction time. In industrial settings, this may result in slips, trips and falls. > “Updating the software without damaging the hardware” > > - John Kavanagh Whilst replication of your fight conditions and fight time at least three weeks out from a scheduled fight is recommended, a sensible approach should be employed including delaying the next day time of wake to increase sleep duration. This will allow your body and mind to get used to staying awake at the time of the fight and more importantly being active during this time. You don't have to spar hard during this period, but you should be drilling, moving or doing some light sparring. As John Kavanagh says, “[Updating the software without damaging the hardware](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jckVAiNCv6o "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jckVAiNCv6o")”. Notable fighters who employ this strategy include Conor McGregor, Michael Bisping, Nick and Nate Diaz. ### Adapting For Fighting In Different Time Zones Max Holloway should be commended on taking a fight on six days’ notice and weighing in at 171 lbs at the start of fight week. It seems the odds were stacked against Holloway from the start. The potential confounding factor for Holloway not being able to [cut the weight](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/) may be due to circadian misalignment (Jet - Lag). Holloway flew from Hawaii to New York City (NYC) crossing 6-time zones. Adaptation in general requires one day for one-time zone crossing, meaning Holloway would not be fully adjusted to the NYC until at least Friday (weigh-in day). The side effects from jet lag include digestive issues such as bloating, gas, diarrhoea and difficulty in regulating appetite and may result in lethargy ([UFC 223 Embedded: - Episode 4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANO8D6GdAh4 "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANO8D6GdAh4")), diminished strength and difficulty sleeping. ### Jet Lag & Sleep strategy These are all important factors that may affect a [weight cut](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/ "Dr Reid Reale on Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA") of 16 lbs in six days. It is also of interest that flying eastward (Hawaii - NYC) is more difficult to adapt to as opposed to flying westward. In contrast, flying in a westward direction is easier to adapt (Dublin - NYC). This may be why McGregor was not suffering from any of the physical effects of jet lag in NYC such as diminished strength or lethargy, but some would argue that his cognitive performance and decision making was impaired. It may be beneficial for top tier fighters to consult a Physiologist / Sleep / Performance expert in the [future to plan fight camps, travel and fight](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/) week or even on late notice. **To hear more from Ian you can listen to my podcast with him on how Combat Athletes can [Sleep In And Win!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!")** Dr Ian C Dunican PhD, MBA, MMineEng, BA *Ian holds a PhD title for “Sleep and Performance in Elite Combat and Contact Athletes” and has worked with [combat athletes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/) at the Australian Institute of Sport, Super Rugby, Australian Rules Football, UFC and many more. He was a [TEDX Perth speaker](https://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunican_sleep_in_and_win "https://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunican_sleep_in_and_win") in 2017. Contact him at [Sleep4Performance](http://www.sleep4performance.com.au "www.sleep4performance.com.au"), in Perth, Western Australia.* ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Rich Walsh on the UFC Performance Institute in China, MMA Periodisation & Mental Skills Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) **Published:** August 14, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Rich Walsh - UFC PI Mental Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/richy_walsh_ufc_pi-1024x576.jpg "Richy Walsh UFC Performance Institute › Sonny Brown")I Interview Rich Walsh In Episode Number 44 Of The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast. Richy Walsh is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt, a veteran of The UFC, [The Ultimate Fighter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Fighter_Nations:_Canada_vs._Australia "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Fighter_Nations:_Canada_vs._Australia") television show and he now works as an MMA Coach at the UFC Performance Institute in Shanghai, China. We discussed the goals of the UFC P.I and their expansion into China, how they run the MMA Combine and scout for new talent on the local scene, the process of running their fight camps, professional sparring sessions and how he game plans and breaks down footage for the athletes. He also explained the process behind the development and periodization of MMA Skills training and his thoughts on building a system to apply the same process for mental skills training. Links to the UFC Performance Institute Research Journals are contained in the Resources section at the bottom of this page. Also, if you want to learn more from the staff working at the UFC P.I then listen to my interview with [Reid Reale](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/ "Dr Reid Reale on Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA") who also works there as a Performance Nutritionist. Table Of Contents 1. [Listen To Rich Walsh](#listen-to-rich-walsh) - [Spotify](#spotify) - - [Apple](#apple) - - [YouTube](#youtube) 2. [Topics](#topics) - [UFC PI Combine](#ufc-pi-combine) - - [The Non-technical Tests](#the-non-technical-tests) - - [The Technical Tests](#the-technical-tests) - - [Getting the baseline of strength and weakness](#getting-the-baseline-of-strength-and-weakness) - - [The Wrestling test](#the-wrestling-test) - - [Selecting the fighters from the local China regional circuit](#selecting-the-fighters-from-the-local-china-regional-circuit) - - [Preparing Mental Skills Training](#preparing-mental-skills-training) - - [Getting negative thoughts is natural](#getting-negative-thoughts-is-natural) - - [Mentally evaluating the fighters](#mentally-evaluating-the-fighters) - - [Tape Watching](#tape-watching) - - [Early Game Planning Is A Trap](#early-game-planning-is-a-trap) - - [The First Game Plan](#the-first-game-plan) 3. [Timestamps](#timestamps) 4. [Rich Walsh Resources](#rich-walsh-resources) - [Rich Walsh Quotes](#rich-walsh-quotes) - - [Rich Walsh Links](#rich-walsh-links) ## Listen To Rich Walsh #### Spotify <https://spoti.fi/3jVdUCv> #### Apple <https://apple.co/3CQuOLm> #### YouTube ## Topics #### UFC PI Combine The UFC combine is conducted to bring out potential MMA athletes and take them through a battery of tests. The tests range from anthropomorphic, where the height, body mass, etc., to Non-Technical tests like strength test, deadlift strength, grip strength, reactionary drills on the lights, and punch throw. In total, there are 11 tests consisting of technical, non-technical, anthropomorphic difficulties, etc. In a nutshell, the combine is based loosely on the NFL combine, where they bring a batch of college athletes to recruit. > "We see them in the domestic scene, bring them in, invite them in, ask them to try out our physical, technical, or non-technical, and anthropomorphic tests." > > - Richy Walsh #### **The Non-technical Tests** He says, with the non-technical stuff, we're just seeing their actual physical capabilities, where they sit in that division, and against the other people who are combining. They continually test them. And have a testing week to keep track of their constant progress on the gym floor. #### **The Technical Tests** For the technical tests, coaches will put them through a grappling test, where they do positional stuff. Generally, they are asked to do inside control, in mount position, starting on the back, and run through positions, right in a rotation. And they're going to be scored for submission and passes, sweeps, etc. It's much like a Jiu-Jitsu competition, but the [coaches are just isolating the positions](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) for the times. So that gives a good spider graph of where their strengths and weaknesses are in grappling. #### **Getting the baseline of strength and weakness** Richy says, "We're getting a baseline on every athlete with their strengths and weaknesses. For example, on the anthropomorphic basis, it could be just where they sit in that division. Are they tall for that division? What is their actual division? What is their body type? We also have a scoreboard that's live, so the athletes can know where they stand. " #### **The Wrestling test** He says, "We want to see their variety of takedowns, their technical execution of takedowns in some parts, and how many they can do in that as against a metric. But this time, we added in the combine and some wall work together. They do takedowns in the open for one minute and then punches in the takedowns. And also, against the wall under hooking into the wall doubles, or singles. So we want to see that mix of MMA because it allows them to get their mind away from too much of the isolated art and more into the transitional sections, which is where most of the good fighters are good." #### **Selecting the fighters from the local China regional circuit** He says that they constantly keep tabs on the local events. So that they can know most of the fighters who are in those promotions. He says, "We'll be keeping tabs, and we'll have a list of potentials. And then we'll go through that list myself and watch all their flights. And we'll see who we like, who we don't like and invite those." #### **Preparing Mental Skills** **Training** Richy says that there's a lot of considerations about the mental side of fighting. And you have to do an objective analysis on your fighter in your gym to see where their strengths and weaknesses lie on a psychological or physical level. Then see what best fits into their training plan. You might have someone who's just a freak, and it doesn't matter what you say or do. They'll just go out and fight. For this type of fighter, you need to focus on different aspects than someone who is worried or nervous. He says, "We need to focus on getting you through the fight camp. Maybe it's injury prevention; maybe it's getting you to every session because you're always late." So this is where you objectively try and look at the person, but then there has to be the subjectivity of what best fits each individual. #### **Getting negative thoughts is natural** Getting negative thoughts about the competition is natural. He says, "even if you program it, you just set it aside. We set aside two times a week where we think for 30 minutes, all the good and bad things that come into our head because it's going to happen, doesn't matter if you're the best. You're still going to have a moment where you will have negative imaginations about the competition. "I could be knocked out and embarrassed" those thoughts are going to pop in your head because it could happen. So you'd be stupid not to think it. It's like if I'm doing something dangerous, I want to know what the consequences are. In my head, I don't want just to be utterly ignorant because I want to be prepared for those sorts of things that are going to happen. #### **Mentally evaluating the fighters** The idea is to create a mental preparedness score, just like a mental survey. They are not doing it currently, but this is something that he'd like to incorporate in training. Richy says, "Like on the training front, the staffing, the physio, the sports science, and everything like that. These things don't just happen overnight. If you're doing the best job in the world, then things'll constantly evolve. And that's where we're tightening the screws on things, but also getting to things where can we improve on, where can we be world-class, and trying to create new or different ways to do it right, without just like getting testing fatigue. So we don't want to bamboozle them with too much stuff at once. And it's the best way to get them in the system." #### **Tape Watching** You can't just watch the tape once, and they usually already have background information on their own fighter and the opponent. Richy says, "You can sit down and just watch the fights a few times, because sometimes even when you watch a UFC fight, you'll notice you tend to focus on one fighter you like watching. There'll be fighting on the domestic show or UFC for the academy athletes, so we watch the opponent's last three fights. We watch them a few times, just get to know how he moves in general stance. And then, I'll go through and write some notes on the opponent that specifically tells traits. So, it's just building out those things and taking notes on the opponent." #### **Early Game Planning Is A Trap** Richy says, "Through tape watching, we know the tendencies of the opponent's keys to victory for our guys. And then we work that game plan within the three weeks before the fight. Because if we do it six weeks before fight camps, opponents change a lot on the domestic scene. So putting a lot of time into game-planning for things that are going to change is another thing. And then game-planning too early for somebody is another trap. Because you're focusing on the opponent, you're mentally training yourself to focus on their movement and what they're going to be doing. And if they don't do it, suddenly you build this expectation of what they were going to do, and it's not what you want. You want to focus on how you're going to win, how you're going to be fighting, and how you're moving. And then added to that, knowing how the opponent will move in his traits and tendencies and how to trap him and the do's and do not in certain situations, their strengths and weaknesses, etc., is going to help you. So, in a nutshell, you have to note down things that they do that are common." #### **The First Game Plan** It's always a good question to ask your fighter questions like, how do you want to fight and if they're going to be specific to the person they're finding or what they want to do, then allow them to do their thing. ## Timestamps \[00:00\] – Introduction \[01:41\] – Hiring Role Open for an Editor and My Patreon Account \[03:04\] – About Richy and His Martial Arts Journey \[07:13\] – His Advice to People Who Want/Are Pursuing a Career in This Field \[11:49\] – His Plans for His Chinese Students and UFC \[14:32\] – Pros of Being Part of a Multi-Billion Industry \[16:27\] – About UFC Combine \[19:40\] – The Wrestling Test \[22:17\] – Selecting the Fighters From Local China Regional Circuit \[27:07\] – His Way of Preparing the Athletes for the UFC Competition \[31:03\] – Periodize Skills Training \[32:16\] – Preparation in Mental Skills \[34:12\] – When You Start Visualizing Things Negatively \[36:56\] – How He Evaluates the Mental Preparedness of the Athletes \[40:03\] – What Is Tape Study, and How He Uses It? \[46:04\] – The First Game Plan \[47:48\] – Discussing the Opponent’s Traits With His Student \[48:52\] – His Thoughts on Technical Sparring and Hard Sparring \[52:15\] – Dealing With the Problems of Switching Between the Real Fight and Practice \[54:55\] – His Secret Tricks for the UFC \[59:01\] – Richy’s Future Plans \[01:04:07\] – The Best Way to Contact **Richy Walsh** ## Rich Walsh Resources #### Rich Walsh Quotes > "You need to have the skill. That's the ultimate requirement to be in that real top echelon of fighting." > > - Richard Walsh > "No matter how good you are, bad things still gonna happen to you. You're still going to have a moment where you could be knocked out and embarrassed." > > - Richard Walsh > "If you're focusing on the opponent, you're mentally training yourself." > > - Richard Walsh #### Rich Walsh Links - [Richard Walsh Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Walsh_(fighter) "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Walsh_(fighter)") - [Richard Walsh Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/richufc/ "https://www.instagram.com/richufc/") - [Richard Walsh Facebook Page](http://facebook.com/RichyWalshMma/ "Richard Walsh Facebook Page") - [Richard Walsh LinkedIn](http://linkedin.com/in/richard-walsh-42278566/?originalSubdomain=au) - [UFC Performance Institute Digital Journal: Volume 2](https://ufc-pi.webflow.io/ "https://ufc-pi.webflow.io/") - [Volume 1: A Cross-Sectional Performance Analysis and Projection of the UFC Athlete](http://media.ufc.tv/ufcpi/UFCPI_Book_2018.pdf "http://media.ufc.tv/ufcpi/UFCPI_Book_2018.pdf") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast – The Sonny Brown Breakdown")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Richard Walsh - MMA Periodisation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/richy_walsh_promo_4-1024x1024.jpg "richy_walsh_promo_4 › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [A No-Nonsense Yoga For Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/yoga-for-martial-arts/) **Published:** August 2, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Yoga For Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/yoga_for_martial_artists-1024x576.jpg "Yoga For Martial Arts › Sonny Brown")![8 limbs of raja yoga](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/rajayoga-228x300.jpg "8 Limbs of Yoga › Sonny Brown") Yoga would be the most important part of any **evolutionary** or spiritual practice of a martial artist. No other skill in the entire arsenal of **spiritual techniques** will do more for you than meditation and [yoga](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jonathon-brookins-interview-life-ufc-mma-yoga/ "Jonathon Brookins Interview on Life, Addiction, Martial Arts & Yoga"). One kind of Yoga is Raja Yoga and this is a summary of the core techniques involved in the practice of Raja Yoga and how it is the best yoga for martial arts. In modern terms, it is sold as a new age **de-stressing technique** but this is only considered teaching a shallow version of yoga. The more you meditate, the more **resilience** you build up against the little stresses of life. It has to be a constant daily practice like showering and brushing your teeth. The discipline built through **meditation** could also be the most important part of keeping you on point in life. Table Of Contents 1. [The 10,000 Things](#the-10000-things) 2. [The Dangers Gurus, Cultural Interchange & Cults](#the-dangers-gurus-cultural-interchange-cults) 3. [Autobiography of a Yogi](#autobiography-of-a-yogi) 4. [Distinguishing Different Meditations & Yogas](#distinguishing-different-meditations-yogas) 5. [The Time & Space For Yoga & Martial Arts](#the-time-space-for-yoga-martial-arts) 6. [First Limb of Raja Yoga - Yama](#first-limb-of-raja-yoga-yama) 7. [Second Limb of Raja Yoga - Niyama](#second-limb-of-raja-yoga-niyama) 8. [Third Limb of Raja Yoga - Asana](#third-limb-of-raja-yoga-asana) 9. [Fourth Limb of Raja Yoga - Pranayama](#fourth-limb-of-raja-yoga-pranayama) 10. [Fifth Limb of Raja Yoga - Pratyahara](#fifth-limb-of-raja-yoga-pratyahara) 11. [Sixth Limb of Raja Yoga - Dharana](#sixth-limb-of-raja-yoga-dharana) 12. [Seventh Limb of Raja Yoga - Dhyana](#seventh-limb-of-raja-yoga-dhyana) 13. [Eighth Limb of Raja Yoga - Samadhi](#eighth-limb-of-raja-yoga-samadhi) 14. [Further Research and Practice](#further-research-and-practice) ### **The 10,000 Things** ![Eight Limbs of Raja Yoga](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/eight-limbs-of-yoga-180x300.gif "Eight Limbs of Raja Yoga › Sonny Brown") The attention overload of modern society makes meditation more difficult but also more important. The concept in Buddhism of the 10,000 things is the idea of the infinite distractions that life throws at us. These are the 10,000 things that are constantly calling for our attention and pretending to be what matters. Meditation is the practice of disentangling from the 10,000 things and re-engaging with your deep self in the non-distracted silence of your mind. There are the external 10,000 things that beg for attention in the physical world, but you also have 10,000 internal things like emotions and feelings. Meditation is establishing order in your life to overcome the monkey mind and develop single-pointed focus. The mind needs to be trained to do this. Western culture does not have any mind training as part of its core curriculum or values; It is all focused on logical, rational and alert processes. But mind [training will strengthen the mind to make it perform](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) better in all th3se alert tasks. Basic mind training in the West would be positive thinking. A lot of distractions that people become involved with are attempts to quiet the mind that can be achieved through meditation without any harmful side effects and a constant process instead of swinging from branch to branch to find new distractions for the mind. Meditation is more than just relaxing. It is a set system of steps for achieving inner peace and ecstasy. ### **The Dangers Gurus, Cultural Interchange & Cults** - Meditation can be practiced without any religious dogma. But the fact is from a spiritual perspective meditation has been practiced by many traditions as a direct route to God. This is true with Hinduism, which is the foundations of yoga. - In the traditional Vedic literature, it does say you need a guru to complete the path of meditation. This is when the path is considered to be started from a young age and would take decades to complete. We cannot get hung up on this and instead just throw ourselves into the process. - But a student of real meditation will need to see someone who is the finished product to know even what that is. This is especially difficult as the world is full of frauds and charlatans. Both in the East and especially in the multimillion dollar new age industry. - There are still many legitimate Hindu or Buddhist teachers who live in the west or travel to the west so it might now be easier than ever to gain access to these people. But remember they are just people and many gurus get involved in scandals and cult behavior. While we go to the east and do not understand Eastern spiritualism many gurus can come to the west and not understand western materialism and it causes problems for them. People are people. - All expectations need to be managed. In our western traditions, we will already have a stereotyped idea of what a holy person should look like. This can sometimes mean the expectation is set as high as Jesus. In the eastern tradition, holy people are not expected to be perfect. Even big deal gurus will not be perfect. They may have brought their divine nature to the forefront but still this is not going to equal a perfect person. People are people. Consider a guru or meditation master as possibly someone who has more expertise in the field but not as an excellent teacher or complete human. - Of course, this gets tricky as the eastern tradition does promote surrendering completely to your guru. This is fraught with danger in the western world with so many charlatans running rampant. - People are people. ### **Autobiography of a Yogi** - That being said a good starting point for an additional study if you are looking for more is the "Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yoganada". Gandhi was a student of this teacher. Of all places, this would be the safest place to start. He was not over the top; it was the simple cut and dry meditation. The organization was continuing the work known as the self-realization fellowship. ### **Distinguishing Different Meditations & Yogas** - This information covers Vedic meditation from the Hindu tradition. This is not the same as Buddhist meditation even though they are often thrown in together. - Hindu meditation posits that there is a core self that is covered by the personality and Buddhist meditation posits that there is n9 core self. - You do not want just to mix up a bunch of random meditation techniques as they all have specific functions and have different theological underpinnings. - Meditation has now been filled with common misconceptions about what meditation is from the modern western culture. It is not merely positive thinking, this idea came out of the new thought movement in the 20's and made a resurgence with the secret and Oprah. Meditation is concerned with turning off the mind and not thinking positively. Meditation is not just sitting comfortably, burning incense, playing new age music and feeling good. This is play acting meditation, it may be calming, but this is not the hard-core work of meditation of shutting off the mind. The hard-core work of meditation is a lot drier and boring then what is popular and sells to the new age movement, - Hatha yoga, where the body is contorted into different body positions, is not meditation. There are lots of different Yoga's, the exercise yoga being taught is hatha yoga. Hatha yoga is not even a traditional step in the meditation process. - [Raja yoga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%81ja_yoga "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C4%81ja_yoga") , the king yoga, is the eight fold path of meditation. This is the real yoga and although it does contain physical postures these are for sitting still for long periods of time. Hatha yoga still has many benefits but it is not the hard-core work of meditation. Hatha yoga can still be a good base to prepare for entering into Raja yoga. - "Mindfulness" is now very popular in the west. This is used in many different things in different contexts. It is essentially a Buddhist technique of being aware of your mental processes. It is now used by corporati9ns and politically correct conversations. It is not the hard-core meditation of Raja yoga. Eventually corporations might start to say people are not being mindful if they are not doing their jobs. - "Spiritual materialism" this is a concept from Buddhism which will be brought into this course. From a book called "Cutting through spiritual materialism". If you go to a yoga centre, a new age book store or anywhere people are studying meditation you will see people with all the material objects to denote themselves as being spiritual. This is all ego satisfying, you cannot dress yourself into meditation, you cannot buy the right toys or necklaces or books to bluff your way into meditation. Just because your brought all the clubs and clothes that tiger woods uses will not make you as good as tiger woods. The only way to get on an oath to playing better golf is to commit yourself to a discipline of practice like tiger woods. If you are attempting to achieve peace and emptiness you are doing yourself a disservice by trying to fill yourself up with as many different spiritual artefacts, both material and internal will be a disservice to you. The techniques of meditation of simple they just require a lot of discipline. ### The **Time & Space For Yoga & Martial Arts** - Establishing a meditation practice requires daily prate. It has to be a daily practice. The best time is when you wake up in the morning , but if you have to do it at lunch or in the afternoon you can. But in the morning will be best as you will not be distracted by the day or have an excuse to miss it. But the most important thing is to start a consistent practice and do it every day. Pick a time and pick a length for meditation and do it every day. You can start at five minutes and increase it over the weeks. You first need to carve out a time that you devote for yourself. The most important thing when starting is not how long you meditate for but sticking to the daily ritual and carving out the habit. - You will need a space that is dedicated and setup for meditation. In the same way you may have a desk setup for work so that every time you sit down you know you9are there to work, or your bed is there for sleeping, have a space setup for meditation. It can be corner of a room and does not need to be grandiose. Ideally it should be quiet and good ventilation. The best thing to sit on is just a folded up blanket or a basic pillow, Feel free to put thing that are inspiring to you in your meditation space. - The best meditation posture is cross legged on the ground with a straight back. If you physically cannot do this and you have to use a chair it must allow you to keep a straight and upright spine. - A simple clock to keep time of your sessions may be needed and you may like to keep a simple journal of your practice. ### **First Limb of Raja Yoga - Yama** - These are the moral scriptures of yoga. This is the type of life you want to be living to be a yogi. This is to be living a non-chaotic life. A simple and calm existence. You can look up the specifics of what was written but this was in the 14th century. - A stable income, a stable living, a stable home, live a good moral life, speak the truth. Lead a moral and upstanding life as much as possible. The practical reason for this in regards to meditation is if you live a shady life you are giving yourself many more worries to weigh down your mind. - Lead a relaxed, moral, non-crazy, non-chaotic life. Boring is good Boring externally but a free mind full of ecstasy. Go to bed early, wake up early, eat well, have healthy relationships, work a job. Get rid of chaos. These are basic tenants of a Yogi to make the meditation practice easier. - You can also just look at living a life that is most in tune to you that will lead to a drama free life, In your case a boring existence may create some drama, so just look at living a chaos and drama free existence, ### **Second Limb of Raja Yoga - Niyama** - This is really a list of don'ts if you want to practice meditation. Can be summed up as don't do bad or immoral stuff. Don't cheat, lie, steal or kill. These will all create disturbances in your mind to deal with. - Don't do stuff that weighs on your mind and heart as this creates obstacles for meditation. - Also don't be a smoker, this will disturb the breath which is crucial to meditation. Along with all the other health detriments, Your mind is a by-product of your breath so if your breath is disturbed so will your mind. - Drinking alcohol is also a no go. Meditating hungover will be very difficult. Avoid drugs. Live a clean life. You do not want substances disturbing your equilibrium. - Since Hinduism is a vegetarian culture traditionally the consumption of meat is considered to cause anger, hostility and cause disturbances. A vegetarian or even vegan diet will allow more mental clarity but in the western world this is widely practiced. Make an individual choice with this as nutrition is another topic. Vegetarianism is still probably the best diet for meditation. Also avoid stimulants like energy drinks junk food, etc. - You do not want to eat before you meditate you want to meditate on an empty stomach which is why meditating in the morning is a great time You do not want your body's digestive functions interrupting your meditation. - Again you can look up the specific by the book rules on this. But again it is written in the middle ages. - Managing lust of result: Focus on the progress and the discipline itself and do not focus on the end result. Just practice it daily and do not focus on if you are enlightened yet. It will take a long time to get good at anything including meditation. Enjoy the journey and do not focus on the destination. - Siddhis: In the yogic literature it is listed that you can achieve magical powers through meditation This can include growing in size and shrinking and certain magical powers. As you get deeper into meditation strange and trippy things will happen in you9r mind but do not get hung up on the idea that you are going to gain magical powers. DO not make this the goal of your meditation. The siddhis are likely just different states of consciousness. Do not get wrapped up n chasing after these, If strange things start to happen just ignore the and let them pass. - Do not become obsessed with things that are not the goal. ### **Third Limb of Raja Yoga - Asana** - This is just a stable position you can hold your body in for a long period of time this ca just be cross legged on the floor with a straight back. Not to be confused with the many various postures of Hatha yoga. - Alistair Crowley also came up with some good postures for this. Lotus position is also good if you are flexible enough to do this. - Generally the Asana is just a position where you can hold your body without fidgeting. Don't get to complicated at first so just start with a simple sitting position. But you do want to be able to hold this for long periods of time No fidgeting or scratching yourself or adjusting your weight or stretching. You want the body to be completely still. Still the body and then you can still the mind. - A large list of Asana are available to look up and were codified in the middle ages. It is most important to just start out by finding something simple that works for you so you can build the practice. ### **Fourth Limb of Raja Yoga - Pranayama** - This is basically breath control, the way of breath or the energy of breath. There are many Pranayama techniques that can get quite difficult and complicated but we just want to start with a steady relaxed state of breathing. - Start by establishing a regular, rhythmic breathing practice. A good basic one is a 4 count while y9 are inhaling and a 4 count while you are exhaling. You can up this to an 8 count if you want. - Focus on deep stable breathing, rhythmic and regular. - We are stabilising our environment, stabilising our life, stabilising our body and n0w this will stabal9se our breath to lead us on the way to stabilising our mind. - This is taking care of everything that might disturb our meditation be it our life, body or breath itself. - You can learn more advanced pranayama's but it is more important to establish your practice and keeping it simple makes this easier. ### **Fifth Limb of Raja Yoga - Pratyahara** - It is basically withdrawing your senses from the exterior world. You are not focusing on anything external to you, This is where all the previous stages will have assisted in eliminating these distractions. Earplugs are your friend if you live in the city. ### **Sixth Limb of Raja Yoga - Dharana** - This is basically concentration. We now need an object of focus that is internal. This is where chakras can be objects of concentration. But for our beginning steps the best point of focus is our "third eye" or between your eyebrows about an inch behind. - Focus and concentrate all of your energy to this one point. This is a lot more difficult than it might sound and is most of the work of meditation. All kinds of thoughts will intrude and attempt to distract you. Just let the thoughts go by and keep your focus, DO not try and aggressively fight the thoughts away as you will become entangled in them. - As you progress your mind may even come up with what you think are intelligent thoughts or insights but this can just be your mind being more sophisticated at distracting you. Still let these go by as it is not the goal. We are meditating to quiet the mind. - Start at 5 minutes a day and increase over time. Consider it like going to the gym and working up the amount of weight you can lift. Eventually you want to up this to 30 minutes a day, If you are able to keep a strict schedule of 30 minutes a day then you are well on your way. Ideally you could get this to an hour a day which will be of great benefit but just stick to your daily practice and get as much time in as you can. ### **Seventh Limb of Raja Yoga - Dhyana** - This is the actual process of meditation. It is going to take a long time to get to this point but will decrease with practice. This is when your mind goes quiet. It calms and is focused on your internal point and you are completely still. You have single pointed concentration. This is when you start meditation proper. You are not disturbed by the world, your body, your breath, your mind and you are now meditating. - This is a victory you ca make over yourself that few people ever make. It is not easy. But with discipline it will get easier over time. The more meditation you do the easier it will be to get to this point. But in the modern world any more than an hour a day can be very hard to achieve. - When you start your practice you may not reach this point in a session or you may only get here briefly but just persist and keep working on it, ### **Eighth Limb of Raja Yoga - Samadhi** - This is when you achieve unity. This is extremely difficult to talk about without using imprecise language as It is always regarded as mystical and religious terms like a unity with god. - A broad way to describe this would be a break between a sense of subject and object. We have concentrated on an object in step six; we are meditating on the object in step seven and Samadhi the distinction between those two things vanish. There is no meditate or object, and it bec9mes the same thing. - A collapse of the dualism between subject and object. - Also referred to as the disintegration of ego. Obviously this is a topic that can get very complicated and mystical and spiritual but again just focus on the process of meditation and you can investigate this further when required. - AS you go further there are different levels of Samadhi. Again you can investigate this later. ### **Further Research and Practice** - As you can see the benefits of yoga meditation itself are immense and it has many knock on effects in life. - Yu can go much deeper but the most important part is to start your practice and be disciplined in it. - The self-realisation fellowship is a great resource if you go deeper into this and want to research further. - Namaste. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Priit Mihkelson On Belts, Ranking, Titles & Hierarchy In Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/) **Published:** October 31, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Priit_Mihkelson_BJJ_Ranks_grades-1024x576.jpg "Priit Mihkelson BJJ Ranks Grades › Sonny Brown")I talk to Priit Mihkelson, A Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt From Estonia and founder of Defensive BJJ. Priit always has a lot of interesting takes on the [teaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/ "Priit Mihkelson Interview on Why BJJ Must Be Taught as a Sport and Not an Art"), [training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/offense-vs-defense-grappling-jiu-jitsu-debate/ "Offense vs Defense & Whats Best for Jiu-Jitsu With Priit Mihkelson & School Of Grappling") & [traditions](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-clapping-ritual-motivation-sdt/ "The Clapping Ritual & Self Determination Theory With Priit Mihkelson") of Jiu-Jitsu, and after recently relocating his school, I took the chance to ask him about his thoughts on belt rankings. We have a great conversation about how he has applied them to his Defensive BJJ system and set up his new school. We then move on to the use of hierarchy & titles like Professor and Master and their place in Jiu-Jitsu ## Listen To Priit Mihkelson ### YouTube ## Topics ### How Priit Mihkelson Teaches His Beginners Class The beginner's course that we offer for 10 weeks, with 20 classes. However, we only have two people who have finished it so far. But what we do in this course is teach submissions only. Every class lasts for 1 hour. In the future, we may change the duration to 115 minutes or something like that. The first 10 or 15 minutes of a class is a warm-up. They review what was taught in the previous classes. This helps them remember the techniques and how they are connected. The rest of the class is mostly submissions. We show them how to use toeholds, tarikoplatas, and knee bars to get submissions. We also teach arm bars, north-south chokes, and [leg locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). We do this because people often get into unfamiliar [leg lock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) situations, and they panic. So we show them the positions early, and they become familiar with them and are more controlled. Submissions are important because we want our students to understand the final goal. We teach them how to do nothing and defend and also how to do a lot and escape. ### On The Professor & Master Titles In BJJ We make fun of the situation more because I don't like the traditional stuff and I don't like the rigid atmosphere. It's better to make jokes with each other, talk about even professor, take it a notch higher, make it a joke, even. So we make light of a situation and show our environment that, yes, I know you to more than you if you're a beginner, because I've done it 21 years. But you are not a white belt person and another black belt person. We're both experts in our own different fields. I have an expert photographer attending my classes. He's an expert in photography. I think we should call him professor or Master of Photography, and he should call me something. I also don't like titles because in classes, it's confusing for people. That's why I don't like belts in Jiu-Jitsu. It puts a white belt on people who are actually black belts in life. And it shows that I'm a black belt and you're a white belt. In no Gi, it's different. We just teach Jiu-Jitsu and it's awesome. ## **Priit Mihkelson** Resources #### **Links** - [Defensive BJJ](https://www.defensivebjj.com/) - [Priit Mihkelson YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOlEFbjW90lu5sSiMu2ZqIg) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Globetrotter Videos](https://www.bjjglobetrotters.com/category/videos/instructors/priit-mihkelson/) - [Priit Mihkelson BJJ Fanatics Instructionals](https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/all/fighter_priit-mihkelson) - [Priit Mihkelson Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/priit_mihkelson/ "Priit Mihkelson Instagram") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Christian Graugart On BJJ Globetrotters, Tribalism, Belt Bureaucracy & Building a Clubhouse](https://www.sonnybrown.net/christian-graugart-interview-bjj-globetrotters/) **Published:** March 1, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Christian Graugart Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/christian_graugart_interview-1024x576.jpg "christian_graugart_interview › Sonny Brown")I talk to Christian Graugart, who is the founder of BJJ Globetrotters, a community that runs seminars & camps around the world that discourages jiu-jitsu politics. We discuss the role of tribalism in BJJ and the benefits of thinking outside the box. Also, about how social recognition drives the need for many accomplishments, the recent issues with the IBJJF (International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation), where they became the largest affiliation in the world, and BJJ were banned, and some teaching and training tips. ## Listen to Christian Graugart ### YouTube ## **TOPICS** ### The Impetus Behind His Organization He says that travelling was his impetus. Visiting so many academies, he realized any place you walk through the door, you might find your new best friend, and there's always some people that will dislike you. ### **Is Tribalism Good or Bad?** Tribalism is not necessarily a bad thing. It's a very healthy thing. But it can be misused like sometimes people build a relationship based on one person wanting something from the other. And this kind of relationship is very easy to make in Jiu-Jitsu because we often sign up for it, and there's a hierarchy. And we can climb it through hard work, as long as we maintain good relations with the person at the top. That's not a bad thing. But sometimes, that person at the top is not necessarily a nice person. ### **Why Is Social Recognition Necessary?** He asks to imagine a competition with no medals and no podium pictures. The pictures are on the podium for a reason, so that people can see that you went up in the hierarchy. What's the purpose of the medal? It's like proof that you won, and that's the same with a [jiu-jitsu belt](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/). Imagine if no cameras were allowed. You'll feel like where is the point of achieving all this if you can't show people that I have been struggling in the mud. ### **The Instructor-Student Relationship** Christian says that very often, people tell him you cannot be friends with your students. You have to keep it very strict. And he always found that to be bullshit. He's never had any other relationship with his students and just been friends. For him, it's just mutual respect, and he doesn't need to be in a state of higher status. But that might not work for some people. Some people need 100% control to behave, while some need no control to behave well. ### **About Beltchecker.com** Beltchecker is just a way to automate the workload for IBJJF. It's built on an exploiting human urge for social recognition. It was made to do things right for the IBJJF. The website is currently at 15,000 registered users in 10 months and is entirely free to use. It funds itself through certificates and ID cards for verified profiles. ### **Ways of Making New Friends** Traveling and meeting so many people. He states, "I realized that no matter where I would go, I can become a good friend with someone I would like to hang out with. And the key for me has always been to treat every person I meet as a potential next best friend." ### **Key To Improving In Jiu-Jitsu** A key to improve in jiu-jitsu is getting exposed to a lot of different games. People can do that through competition. It's just kind of difficult to gather up enough minutes in competition, and it's costly to get like 300 competition minutes, which will take you years and tons of money. You can also do training in other academies or travel. But to expose yourself to many things, the important thing is to try to find common denominators of what you need to look for in defending or attacking. The more you can find common denominators in something, the easier it will be to deal with the stuff you don't know. ### **How Jiu-Jitsu Is Different From Other Sports** The only thing that makes [Jiu-Jitsu different from other sports](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-of-3d-treening/ "Why BJJ Must Be Taught as a Sport and Not an Art – Priit Mihkelson Interview") is invented degrees on black belts. In my opinion, it's like we've introduced two very distinct promotion systems, like Skill Wranglers. We use colour belts to brag about how jujitsu is authentic. You get the belts and have the true skill because this is based on competition, or at least in comparison with competing athletes. ### **Quotes from Christian Graugart** "It's just interesting how medals, or titles, or belts, can make humans do some quite wild things." "There's no way you can ever learn everything in Jiu Jitsu. No matter how much you studied the game, there's always a ton of stuff that you will never know." "Maybe it's not just staying alive, maybe it's important that you don't quit." "If you see a problem or something that annoys you, then you just see the problem. But at the same time, you can also see an opportunity to try and come up with a different solution." "It's so easy to tell other people to take initiative like someone should do something, or this should be done better." "You can either just keep complaining, or you can try to change things." "If you think something is annoying, or a problem, then probably other people do too. So if there's a solution, it's right there. You have to pick it up." ### **INTERVIEW TIMESTAMPS** \[00:23\] - Christain’s Backstory \[04:29\] - The impetus behind his organization BJJ Globetrotters \[06:43\] - Jiu-Jitsu has started to exit Brazil \[07:49\] - How Matt Thornton steered his journey and Chris Haueter's influence on him \[12:35\] - Is the tribalism mentality necessary? \[14:48\] - How social recognition impacts you and your family \[16:03\] - Is social recognition a bad thing \[19:54\] - The need for a boundary between instructor and student \[24:20\] - The disadvantage of strict instructor-student relationship \[25:23\] - The IBJJF and BJJ Globetrotters Association ban \[28:57\] - About beltchecker.com \[36:25\] - Tips to make friends in a new environment \[39:23\] - His way of teaching Jiu-Jitsu to people \[43:25\] - The key to improve in Jiu-Jitsu \[48:50\] - What makes Jiu-Jitsu different from other sports \[52:01\] - The worst thing you can ever do in jujitsu \[56:55\] - A huge change in Jiu-Jitsu \[59:03\] - The philosophy behind Globetrotters and Beltchecker \[01:02:10\] - Politics in Jiu-Jitsu \[01:03:28\] - The Cult of Done Manifesto \[01:04:48\] - About the Globetrotters YouTube channel ### **RESOURCES FOR CHRISTIAN GRAUGART** - http://www.christiangraugart.com/ - [BJJ Heroes](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/christian-graugart) - [Beltchecker](https://www.beltchecker.com/profile.php?id=10) - [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/christian.graugart/ "https://www.facebook.com/christian.graugart/") - [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/graugart/ "https://www.instagram.com/graugart/") ![Christian Graugart Podcast Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/christian_promo_pic-1024x1024.jpg "christian_promo_pic › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Four Esoteric Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development](https://www.sonnybrown.net/principles-martial-arts-skill-development/) **Published:** December 3, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Martial Arts Principles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/martial_arts_principles-1024x576.jpg "martial_arts_principles › Sonny Brown")The core of talent in martial arts is not dependent on the presence of remarkable attributes but rather the absence of limitations imposed on yourself by society and your subconscious. In the following article, I will examine some principles of Martial Arts Skill development that take those factors into account. All humans are naturally born free of all obstructions, and it is only through external influences of society and our upbringing that we unconsciously develop these restrictions that stifle our development as martial artists. Table Of Contents 1. [The Principle Of Non-Resistance](#the-principle-of-non-resistance) 2. [The Principle Of Accommodation](#the-principle-of-accommodation) 3. [The Principle of Balance](#the-principle-of-balance) 4. [The Principle Of Natural Order](#the-principle-of-natural-order) ### Martial Arts Skill Development These four principles can all be witnessed in the natural world and explained in proverbs with which you might already be familiar. Trees that bend in the wind are examples of the principles of non-resistance, a gentle stream that can cut through stone is a case of the principle of accommodation, life thriving in moderate cycles is an example of the principle of balance and the regular changing of seasons is an example of the natural order. Nature can reveal these principles in action, but they are all psychophysical forces that transpire both equally in the human mind as well as the human body. It is said that training in the martial arts is 50 per cent physical and 50 per cent mental, or as former UFC heavyweight champion, Bas Rutten would say it is 100 per cent mental as you have to use your brain to want to get out of bed and go to training. A connection between the natural environment, the human psyche and the body create a psychophysical hurdle that can be overcome by the four principles mentioned. Including these principles in your martial arts practice will change your training from a mere repetition of physical movements to natural movements that are influenced by your mental state, energy and environment. Embracing these principles can lead to reawakening your learning abilities and create benefits that will be developed through martial arts that can transfer to your daily life. ## The Principle Of Non-Resistance The forces of life will impact people in various forms, yet the ways to deal with these effects can be broken down into four different ways. You can disregard these forces and risk having accidents that are caused by your ignorance; you can attempt to resist them in a manner that is inefficient and turbulent uses of energy, or you can implement the principle of non-resistance and use these forces to naturally blend with and energise your life. H is like building a sail that catches the wind to cross vast distances or how a bird can use that same wind to fly or a fish that swims with the current. All are examples of working together and in harmony with natural forces as resistance is not found in nature but is constructed in the minds of humans. > *“Non-resistance is the key to the greatest power in the universe" -* Eckhart Tolle It should be clarified that non-resistance is not merely passive inaction in the face of life events as anyone with a lack of motivation can resign themselves to do nothing of consequence. Rather non-resistance is actively cultivating sensitivity and intelligence to discern and interpret life's subtle forces and then be able to naturally flow with them in peace. Problems of day to day life can be handled using the principle of non-resistance, but martial arts training and competition will also benefit from this concept. Through non-resistance, you use an opponents movement to your advantage and you can understand your opponent is a teacher that will educate you on your weaknesses and help you to improve and better yourself. Redirecting an opponent's force to use it against them is a common theme in martial arts and is an excellent example of the principle of non-resistance in action. > *“Do. Or do not. There is no try.”* - Master Yoda Unfortunately, most actions of humans are endeavours to push or pull on the river of life rather than flow with it in harmony, and this constant resistance is what causes physical and emotional anxiety. Anxiety or tension are subtle signals that something is amiss and should be carefully listened to so you can take responsibility for actions that may be causing this pressure and not resist by shifting the blame onto circumstances out of your control. The most common way a martial artist will experience resistance is by "trying" because the moment you begin to "try" you are immediately assuming a weakness to the challenge ahead of you, and this will cause tension. The tension created by "trying" is entirely a mental construct generated from trying too hard instead of flowing with nature. > *"Aikido is the principle of non-resistance. Because it is non-resistant, it is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. Aikido is invincible because it contends with nothing."* - Morihei Ueshiba A talented martial artist will never "try", they will instead be smooth, relaxed, calm, confident and have a naturally continuous and flowing approach when training and competing. Trying to make or force things to happen creates turbulence and will be met with direct opposition, you can still achieve your goals by working with nature and flowing. Let things transpire naturally based on the complexities of circumstance and train without tension and resistance. For an example of this, consider placing a balance beam on the floor and walking across it and you will find the task relatively simple. But if you place the same balance beam across two skyscrapers you be in a different mental state that can cause tension despite it being the same physical task you have to perform. As soon as you begin to "try" in martial arts you have created a mental opposition to your work instead of flowing, this psychological opposition will then create physical symptoms causing muscles to tense and breathing to be interrupted. ## The Principle Of Accommodation Placing demands on yourself to encourage growth in training will need to take the form of progressive overloading where you repeatedly demand a little more of yourself than you are currently capable of dealing with comfortably. Progressive overload will require patience and the ability to tolerate repeated failures as you continually push yourself and take risks to achieve your life goals. Tolerance for failure will come with an intuitive understanding that each failure is an opportunity to learn and to make accommodations for these failures and lessons. To be able to build tolerance for your inevitable failures you must make your expectations realistic and achievable, so you know that with patience and continued perseverance you can achieve the [goals you have set](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) if you make your goals unrealistic and unachievable you will create frustration at your repeated failures. > "Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill Martial arts training then becomes a process of consistent development through an incremental progression of practical and sensible demands of your body and emotions. The principle of accommodation is much similar to a bodybuilder who wishes to increase muscle the muscle fibres must be broken down over time so that they can grow back stronger and evolve over time. Or think of grinding rock into the shape of an arrowhead, this can be achieved if you grind the rock slowly and with patience but if you attempt to rush it and grind the rock quickly you risk breaking it. The demands you place on your body, mind and emotions must be gradual and within your capacity, taking one step at a time and this is the principle of accommodation. If you ever find yourself asking if you can become good at a skill, thinking that particular skill would be too difficult you are not embracing the principle of accommodation. These questions to yourself will create tension in your body and chip away at any motivation you have to achieve your goals. Instead, you must look at the gradual demands you can place on yourself and start making the steps on your path to whatever higher goal it is you wish to achieve. > "Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something." - Morihei Ueshiba ## The Principle of Balance Essentially the principle of balance can be summed up by stating “Neither too much nor too little.” and it is a principle that can be used in every aspect of your daily life, martial arts training and body and emotion. For a martial artist, balance is seen by not moving too fast or too slow, not being too aggressive or too tentative and not being too far high, low, left or right. The balance will control the pace and timing that every martial artist relies upon to be successful, and this will also filter through to your mindset in training. Understanding balance in training will allow you to accept that you will have good days and bad days and not become frustrated or impatient with an unrealistic expectation that every day of training should constantly be "good". This understanding will free your mental state from the dependence of your outcomes of any particular training session and instead leave you to focus on the practical process of training and realise that the cycle of good and bad days will balance itself. Training becomes a balance of body, mind and emotions and any days where your physical performance is not excellent should be used to pay more attention to your mental clarity and emotional stability. > "Everything too fast is not good but everything too slow is also not good. You need balance. That's why I like martial arts: it always tells you how to control your body, your mind, your heart. Balance. Balance can keep the world's peace. I think that's a very good thing." - Jet Li A martial artist will become centred and in balance with your physical body, mental and emotional states all simultaneously and notice how they all affect each other and are interconnected. The opposite effect of this can be seen in an opponent who is mentally out of balance or emotionally upset as they become much easier to defeat. Upsetting an opponent's composure is what some prizefighters look to exploit when they trash talk an opponent in an attempt to emotionally unbalance their opponent so that their physical performance also becomes unbalanced. Physical balance and emotional turmoil are like fire and water as they do not mix.If you spend too much time thinking about your emotional problems, then you will become unbalanced, but if you meditate on your balance, then you will get rid of your emotional problems. ## The Principle Of Natural Order The principle of natural order is understanding the continual progressive development and changes that occur over time. For instance, the four seasons always stay in the same order and a tree always grows from a seed and never goes from a tree to seed. These processes cannot go backwards and cannot be rushed; it is human nature to want to accelerate the natural order, and this causes our mind to race faster than life is capable of moving. Although progression in the martial arts can still be seen as an equation of both time and concentration where you can spend less time to make the same progress if you concentrate your intensity, it still must remain in balance at all times. Training too long and too intense will cause you to overtrain, which is where your body cannot properly recover from the stress you are putting it under. Also not training enough and without any passion will cause you never to achieve your goals, so it is something that must be balanced and follow the natural order. A great sign that you have a balanced attitude to training is that you are happy and have a sense of humour, as you understand that no matter what achievements you make in martial arts they will not matter in the scheme of the universe or on the scale of the cosmos. > "There is no quick way to grow a tree that is strong enough to withstand a storm" If you ever find yourself thinking that you should be doing better or you should be progressing faster, it is a sign that your mental state is not in the natural order as the word "should" has no place in the mind of the martial artist. As with the word "Try" the word "Should" suggest you are dissatisfied with your current state of being and will cause tension and emotional turmoil. Time is better spent taking action on what you can control rather than spending time thinking about the way things should be which can eventually lead you nowhere other than into neurosis. To continue your martial arts training with the principle of natural order, you must look to always be happy with your training and keep the enthusiasm and inspiration of a beginner. #### Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development ![Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/warriorathlete.jpg "Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development › Sonny Brown") These four principles of developing talent in martial arts will help you with your enjoyment and growth of both your martial arts practice and your daily life. You want to balance between the positive and negative aspects of life and practice nonresistance with whatever circumstances life will bring towards you. Do not get stressed if things do not happen fast enough for you and realise this is part of the natural order and instead embrace accommodation and work on the process of achieving small goes and make continued progress. You will use all these principles to transcend illusionary self-concepts, [break down emotional obstacles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/creating-championship-culture-and-conquering-cancer-with-greg-nelson/ "Creating Championship Culture and Conquering Cancer With Greg Nelson") and develop martial arts talent. ***Reference**: Millm[an, D. (1979). The Warrior Athlete. Walpole, N.H.: Stillpoint Pub.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Millman "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Millman")* ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Setting SMART Goals for Martial Arts Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/setting-smart-goals-for-martial-arts-training/) **Published:** November 5, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Setting SMART Goals for Martial Arts Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/smart_goals_martial_arts_training-1024x576.jpg "Setting SMART Goals for Martial Arts Training › Sonny Brown")SMART goals are a commonly used framework when talking about goal setting and achieving your goals. Now it's important not to think of smart goals as the only way to set your goals because it's merely one framework that you can potentially use. But smart goals is probably the most well-known way to set goals, which we will discuss below. The term **SMART goals** first started to be known in the early 1980s and were developed in the business management world and have since expanded beyond their to be used in any area of life where goal setting is essential and in particular martial arts. Table Of Contents 1. [The S.M.A.R.T Acronym](#the-smart-acronym) - [Specific](#specific) - [What?](#what) - - [Why?](#why) - - [Who?](#who) - - - - [Where?](#where) - - [Which?](#which) - [Measurable](#measurable) - - [Achievable](#achievable) - - [Relevant](#relevant) - - [Time-Bound](#time-bound) 2. [Smart Goals For Martial Arts](#smart-goals-for-martial-arts) ## The S.M.A.R.T Acronym The term is an acronym where SMART goals set the criteria for establishing what your goals are going to be. - **S** - Specific - **M** - Measureable - **A** - Achievable - **R** - Relevant - **T** - Time-Specific. That list provides the specific settings around your goals that you want to have figured out and established before you start doing the work to achieve them. It is an essential step because it helps define your success criteria clearly and can help shine the light on any potential issues that may arise in achieving those goals and allow you to anticipate and deal with them ahead of time. Next up, we will explain in more detail how to write your goals with each of those points that make up the acronym in mind. ### Specific Perhaps the most crucial step is being precise with the goal that you want to achieve. It's all too easy to say that you want to get better in your martial arts training. Still, you will dramatically increase your chances of achieving that if you get specific about what area you want to improve in and how you're going to go about doing it. In particular, when to find the specifics of your goal, you want to answer five questions that all start with the letter W. *What, Why, Who, Where and Which.* #### What? You want to write down precisely what you wish to accomplish, and the more detail you can write about this, the better it will help you establish what you're going to need to achieve to say that you've reached your goal. That's where having a nebulous definition of simply getting better at something will be a hindrance to the process. So think about it and write down as specific as possible precisely what you want to accomplish. #### Why? Next, write down why this goal is one that you want to accomplish. This part will help you define your reasoning and motivation behind the goal that you were setting for yourself to achieve. By thinking about precisely why you want to achieve something that can help you firmly establish the motivational drive, you need to turn your idea into a reality. It can also be something that you refer back to if you find yourself unable to remember why You started the process of achieving this goal in the first place. #### Who? In this section, you want to think about who has to be involved in achieving this goal. It's important to understand that some plans may require you to rely on other people's input and participation. In particular, for martial arts, this could be your coach's training partner, and in some cases, it's going to need your opponents to turn up to particular competitions to take part. Establishing all the critical people required for you to achieve your goal will help you determine the best way to work towards it, even if you need to communicate with these people about the plan you've set. Ideally, this step should help you avoid a situation where you've selected a goal that relies on someone else, and they are unable to feel the expectations that you've placed upon them. If you want to show an abundance of caution, it's a good idea never to set goals that will ultimately require another person's compliance if you're going to achieve them. #### #### Where? The "Where" part of the goal has you write down exactly where the process of achieving your goal will take place. It could be in the training room, or it could require time in the training room to perform at a competition arena, but knowing where you will have to go to achieve your goals can help you plan the logistics in your life around the achievement of your goals. #### Which? The "Which" section will be where you write down the resources or potential limitations that you will have on your desired outcome. For instance, one resource may be the number of training sessions you can attend in a year. If your academy does offer more than one class a day, then setting a goal of attending more than 365 classes in a year will need you to expand the resources that you have available to you to attend classes. Knowing what resources will place limits on you in your current situation can help you establish any roadblocks you might encounter and what steps you will need to take to overcome them. ### Measurable Having measurable goals means that you will be able to track your process on your path to achieving them, which can help you stay motivated and help you establish any deadlines that you would require to meet if you want to achieve your goals in a certain way amount of time. You don't want to set a goal that you cannot measure if you have achieved it or not. As you would never be able to get to the point where you can take it off your list, establishing some form of metric to track your progress along the pathway to achieving your goal will be critical. When writing out your goals for the measurable section, think about if there's a certain amount of your goal that you need to reach and how you will know if you've been able to get that amount. It could be hours spent training, repetitions of drilling a particular technique, several competitions or medals, or tactics and strategies applied in training sessions. ### Achievable When writing SMART goals, you want to make them as realistic and achievable as possible. It's easy to write down the dreams that you would like to achieve in your wildest fantasies, and they may have a place in other goal-setting frameworks. But for smart goals, we want to make sure that the plan you set is entirely possible and realistic for you to complete. Generally, this means you will have two factors the current constraints you might have on your life into the goal you have set. These constraints could be financial, Based on your location, based on your current skill level, or even the free time available to train. While setting a goal of becoming champion of the world is commendable, a SMART goal would first have you set the goal of becoming champion of your local region. Once you have achieved that goal, you have taken steps to make some of those lofty goals more achievable, Attainable and more likely to fit into the SMART goal criteria. When writing this down, think about the practical steps required to accomplish the goal and how any possible constraints could limit the likelihood of achieving it. ### Relevant You want to make sure that the goals you are setting have some relevance to your current position in life and any other goals you may already have. You want to outline your goals so that they are all working synergistically towards similar outcomes so that working on one thing can help propel you towards achieving multiple goals. Writing down a goal that requires a complete lifestyle change or a radical behaviour change can be a good process if that's something your life needs, but it's not going to meet the requirements of a SMART goal where the goals should be relevant to you. Some questions that you need to answer to determine if your goals are relevant to you will be if you are the right person and it's the right time to reach the goal, if you currently find it worthwhile and how it would align with your other goals and lifestyle. Even if you want to achieve something that may not be currently relevant to you, the process can help you pick a more appropriate goal. Completing a smaller but more relevant goal could also get you to a position in life where that lofty goal may meet the relevant criteria for SMART goals. ### Time-Bound You want to set your smart goal to have a time-restricted limit; this includes a start date and finish date with potential deadlines and milestones along the way. For instance, if you want to have done a certain amount of training before a competition or reach a particular [weight class](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/ "Dr Reid Reale on Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA") before an arranged date for a match, you need to know when you're starting the process and when you should finish. When writing down this part of the [SMART goals section](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria"), you want to consider what is achievable in specific blocks of time, what you can do as a daily process to help achieve those, what you can do in a month to help you achieve it and exactly when you will complete them. ## Smart Goals For Martial Arts As mentioned in the introduction, SMART goals are only one framework for goal setting, and we will explore other frameworks in separate articles. By working through the framework requirements, the exact process and objectives you will need to achieve your goals by the set day, this process can help motivate you and focus on completing each of those steps. One thing SMART goals will not do is achieve the goals for you; it's essential to understand that simply writing them down is not doing the work of what the goals we will require. Don't fall into the bad habit of getting any ego over the fact that you have written or made SMART goals; it's the first step in a long process of goal achievement. And remember, if you find that SMART goals don't work for you, then don't consider the process of goal setting as a whole to be not a worthwhile process but instead look for a way to set goals that you find more compatible. Remember, goals are the first step. Working towards achieving the goals is the bulk of the process. That process should be one that you enjoy, which will fuel your desire for martial arts training. Even if you didn't achieve the outcome you were looking for, it should be something that will have given your life an overall benefit or help you in other areas or goals that you have also set. Take on board any [lessons that you learn](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) in setting your goals or working towards them. No matter what happens in achieving your desired outcome, you will still benefit from the process and be in a better situation for any long-term planning. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Proper Etiquette To Being A Good BJJ Training Partner](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) **Published:** April 4, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![BJJ Training Partner Etiquette](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/good_bjj_training_partner-1024x576.jpg "good_bjj_training_partner › Sonny Brown")Brazilian jiu-jitsu isn't a sport that you can practise effectively or entirely on your own. Being a good BJJ training partner by building and maintaining social connections with your fellow teammates will make your experience in the sport and those around you much more pleasant. Being a good training partner doesn't necessarily mean being the best at Jiu-Jitsu. The competition side can have people performing individually, but to be a good training partner, you must empathise with and understand the needs of those around you. Here are some of the most important factors to consider when you want to be a good training partner, making the experience of training Jiu-Jitsu more fun and enjoyable for you and your training partners. To get the most out of Jiu-Jitsu, you want to make sure that you are the person that people want to be paired up with because you are enjoyable to work with, and the following steps will help you become that partner. ## **Get To Know Your BJJ Training Partner** Introducing yourself to a partner, letting him know your name and getting to know their name is a small step toward being a good training partner. You may want to find out how long you've been doing Jiu-Jitsu, which can help you better understand what level to expect their training skills to be. Maybe you are the more experienced partner, or they will have more experience than you; knowing this can allow you to alter your training style to match their level. ### **Take Care Of Your Hygiene** One of the easiest things you have control over to make you a good training partner is your hygiene. Jiu-Jitsu and any form of grappling is a close contact sport where those around you will appreciate [personal hygiene](https://www.scuffle.com.au/blogs/articles/classic-hygiene-advice-for-grappling-wrestling-amp-jiu-jitsu "personal hygiene"). If it's not something you have taken care of, it will be self-evident and make you stand out. For something so easy to take care of, you don't want to let it make you become that person in the training room that people wish to avoid. Simple things like having an additional shower before class, wearing deodorant, and making sure you're Gi or rash guards have been washed before class. Also, having your nails neatly trimmed, teeth brushed, and hair tied back if it's long will ensure that you are considerate of those with whom you share the mat space. ### **Listen To The Coach's Instructions** Paying attention to the coach while explaining the technique is another easy step you should take to make you a better training partner. Now it's an expectation that you do this already, but you can be a better partner by listening and understanding the techniques as best as possible when the coaches explain. If your partner has any concerns when you begin to drill the techniques, you can be the person who was reliably paying attention to what the coach is saying. If you can be dependable as a training partner, someone who can lead and follow directions well, it will mean that you're not the one who has to ask your training partner what it is you're supposed to be doing when you get the time to work in your pairs. ### **Practice Even When You Are the Dummy** As you're paying attention to the coach demonstrating a technique, you also want to see how he has his demonstration partner reacting to the technique. To drill or train properly, you need to be giving your partner the correct feedback to make the technique work. In my wrestling class, we have a phrase about not being a dead fish to your partner, which means you don't ever want to flop on the floor with no purpose. By giving your partner the correct [responses to the techniques or drills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-thornton-art-of-aliveness-fundamentals/ "Matt Thornton Interview on The Art of Aliveness, Fundamentals & Functional Delivery Systems") you have to do, you make sure that you are a beneficial partner who people will want to work within Jiu-Jitsu class. Part of this is listening to the coaches and following the guidance on what they want you to learn and how they want you to learn it. For instance, it's not giving your partner the resistance to a counter that you had seen for the move in a previous lesson that they may not know. While to you, that may seem like the appropriate feedback, you only want to be giving them the feedback that the coach has instructed for that [lesson but allow them to be successful in learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) the technique of the class. Then you can save that additional response for when you start to roll or spar. This element is perhaps the underappreciated side of being a good partner. ### **Don't Try to Replace the Coach** Part of being a good training partner is paying attention and relating the coach's information. But you don't want to find yourself in a position where you end up over coaching your training partner or making them feel like you were trying to replace the coach's role and instead substitute yourself there. Remember that your partner is paying the coach for their time, and they probably want to get as much direct instruction from them as possible. The feedback you give on the techniques of the day should only come from what the coach has said. If you are repeating the directions given by the coach, then it's not you trying to replace them. You are only helping to amplify the central message of the lesson. If then, they would like to receive feedback on something you noticed. Giving them the option can help eliminate any ideas you are giving them [unsolicited advice](https://www.sonnybrown.net/daniele-bolelli-mythology-meaning-martial-arts/ "Daniele Bolelli on The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts"). ### **Train With All Students No Matter Their Level** Look to give back to the class once you've gained enough experience where you can do so. Helping new students in the class come to grips with some of the practices of learning Jiu-Jitsu can be rewarding for both of you. It might be tempting to always look to pair up with a partner who has more experience than you to learn from them and get the most out of your time. Maybe some of the more experienced partners would have paired up with you when you started training to help your coaches make the new experience of their Jiu-Jitsu class even more enjoyable. And once you can be that person to others in the class, you should take the opportunity to help return the favour. Sometimes this could mean just helping someone through the warm-up showing them how to tie their belt, and letting them know some of the gym's culture. As I was learning Jiu-Jitsu, I remembered and appreciated that training partner's the most, even if they may not have been the most competitive, to take the time and help me along showed me a lot about their character. Those people are certainly ones that I look back on and think of as being good training partners. ### **Consider Your BJJ Training Partner's Style & Goals** As Jiu-Jitsu attracts members of all walks of life with different goals of self-defence competition or just getting fit, it's important to remember that your training style may change depending on who you pair up with. If someone is not a competitor, then expecting a competition level of drilling and rolling will be aggressive or unwelcomed. Before rolling, you might need to ask if your partner has any injuries you should be aware of, or you could even ask what kind of round they are looking to have so you know their expectations. You don't come across as entirely inconsiderate of them. It's essential when people are older, younger, or a size difference between teammates. Jiu-Jitsu players to keep in mind as well people may be in class as it for the fun hobby that it is and want to get a sweat on and you can still roll with them learn techniques get better and have fun without turning it into a competition. The ability to do that and still have fun and improve is a skill that will make your Jiu-Jitsu improve as you'll be able to practice with anyone on the mat. That gives you more training partners than if you were only to roll with specific teammates' styles. ### **Be Considerate When Rolling & Sparring.** A good training partner is always one who people feel safe to roll with, and that doesn't mean safe from the threat of submission or sweep, but someone who they know, if they do get caught in a submission, will not crank it or overextend, and they'll have plenty of time to tap. You don't want people within your club feeling that they are at risk of injury if they choose to roll with you. That's a fast way to find the available numbers of people you have to train with dwindling. A common meme is for people to suggest that they want to roll light, and then one person turns it into a competitive role at the first opportunity. Instead, if you talk to your training power beforehand about any injuries or what level of roll they're expecting, make sure you stick to that and don't alter it to increase the risk of injury. Part of this can be keeping the rolling time fun and playful so that you both enjoy the round rather than simply looking to maximise the amount of knowledge and experience that only you can gain from the roll. If you are going to, then after a roll is when you should be giving feedback. Another common meme is people stopping in the middle of submission and explaining what their partner needs to do to apply it correctly. You can save that for after the round is up, and again asking them if they want any feedback is an excellent way to make sure you don't come across as a know-it-all. You should also be receptive to any feedback your partner may be trying to give you, even if you feel it's not warranted. Perhaps they are only trying to help you out, and even if they put feedback to you that you think is incorrect, you can consider it and at least be respectful of them. You don't where comfortable giving you feedback because you feel disrespected by it. Providing input at self is an art form and something we can cover in-depth later. ### **Be Grateful For Your BJJ Training Partner's Time** Remember to thank your partners after rolls and after training sessions. While this is often a traditional part of jiu-jitsu where people line up after class to thank everyone, it's crucial to mean it. Without your training partner's there, you won't have anyone to help you improve or practice the sport. They are giving up that time and their bodies to help you practice the sport you love. It would be appropriate if you were grateful to be surrounded by people who all share the [common goal of helping each other](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/ "Heath Pedigo on Daisy Fresh Jiu-Jitsu & Pedigo Submission Fighting For the Future"). If you train for any length of time, then good training partners will come and go. People get new jobs, have to move or perhaps other priorities in life take over their time for training, and they may not be able to make it to class any longer. That makes the time that they're giving you unique and valuable. You might be a good training partner for someone in their Jiu-Jitsu journey for maybe a few months, but that time can be memorable, and you want to appreciate it while it's happening. ### A Good BJJ Training PartneR - **It's How You Play The Game** An old saying goes that a rising tide lifts all ships, and that's what being a good training partner can do. Because if everyone in your club is suitable to train with and is focused on being able to help everyone else in the club improve, you won't be in a situation where some training partners get left behind while others excel. But you will be in a room where everyone is improving, and everyone has an opportunity to be one of those who can excel. But to create an environment, it must begin with your personal ability to be a good training partner for others. They're jiu-jitsu more enjoyable and, in turn, make your Jiu-Jitsu more satisfying, resulting in your whole club's training time being more enjoyable. Training Jiu-Jitsu will bring you into contact with people from all walks of life, occupation and social status and put you in a situation where you must trust each other. Becoming a good training partner by communicating with them and being considerate of them will be a skill you can take off the mats and have lasting value in your life. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [The Rancid Ingredients For A Martial Arts McDojo With Rob From McDojoLife](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mcdojolife-ingredients-martial-arts-mcdojo/) **Published:** December 14, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![McDojoLife](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/mcdojolifeheader-1024x576.webp "McDojoLife › Sonny Brown")I talk to Rob From McDojoLife. Rob has been a lifelong martial artist with a black belt in Karate and a Purple Belt in Jiu-Jitsu. McDojo life has a massive social media presence that you have likely seen before, where it exposes fakes, frauds and phoneys of the martial arts industries. We discuss the elements that make a McDojo, the warning signs and dangers of fake martial arts, and how you can avoid these as a student and coach. ## Listen To McDojo Life ### Apple ### Google ### Spotify ### YouTube ### Timestamps \[02:39\] - Rob’s background and why he started McDojo Life \[05:03\] - Extended definition of McDojo by Rob \[12:00\] - You should wait until you are 16 years old to become a black belt \[14:37\] - The importance of standard uniforms in martial arts \[16:04\] - Freedom to choose your team \[18:40\] - The issue of self-regulation within the industry \[25:11\] - Cult-like behaviour in martial arts \[35:25\] - Things we should be wary of in martial arts that lead to a cult \[38:07\] - The veil of mysticism in martial arts \[40:12\] - Hierarchy system in martial arts \[42:44\] - No touch knockouts seem to indicate that people are not honestly engaging with their instructor \[46:11\] - The psychology of how to finish a sale \[50:03\] - How to address common objections by people to not joining your class \[55:39\] - MacDojo of the martial arts industry \[59:07\] - Parallels between a shady business mentor and a shady martial arts operation \[1:02:34\] - About martial arts super show \[1:05:01\] - Backbiting is killing the martial arts industry \[1:08:04\] - People who are more educated are more likely to fall victim to a cult \[1:16:20\] - The videos on Rob’s channel are not staged \[1:20:49\] - About fight commentary breakdowns \[1:27:20\] - Xu Xiao Dong is the reason that it’s illegal to call yourself a master in China ### Topics #### **How McDojoLife was started** McDojoLife started based on a conversation that Rob had with a student. Rob was once a BJJ coach. One day after the class, a student came to him and asked about MacDojo. So Rob gave him his version of MacDojo, which eventually turned into the five rules of the page. And then the student said, “Well, how come no one does anything about that?” The question made Rob think about creating McDojoLife. Rob says, “There’s no regulating body for the martial arts industry. So why doesn’t anybody do anything about that? So it stayed with my head all night like I couldn’t sleep. And then the next day, I just started a McDoJo life on Facebook, and then it’s grown and evolved since then.” #### **The reason why he narrowed down the ways to spot a McDojo** Rob says, “The issue with McDojo is, and if you look at almost any article online, it’s astonishing that there are 100 ways to spot a McDojo. I was like, that’s a lot. I’m sure we can narrow this down. And I narrowed it down to about five different things that really make a McDojo because a lot of people like to put a time stamp on how long it should take to get a black belt, but then it’s a bit hypocritical, depending on who it is. Because there’s always that exception to the rule or guideline, and so people will look at people who get their black belts in taekwondo at two, three years and go, “Well, that’s ridiculous. It’s way too fast to get a black belt in anything.” So, I spotted major issues and made five rules.” ### **The Five Rules for spotting McDojo** #### **1: Sexual Predators** Paedophilia is rampant in the martial arts industry. Rob says, “There has not been a week that has gone by, in which I haven’t looked on Google and found an instructor who was arrested or being tried for fondling children or being sexually inappropriate with children. And it seemed like no one was talking about it. Like people were so busy talking about that this guy got his black belt in two years. Meanwhile, there were like four rapes over there. Are we going to ignore that? Because that seems way more important. It’s a bit of a bigger problem. And so paedophilia was rule number one right off the bat once I started digging.” #### **2: No Touch Knockouts** Rule number two is no touch knockouts or mislabeling techniques. If we look at no-touch knockout, that’s ridiculous. You don’t have magical, mystical powers. You can’t move people with your mind or the force or Qi or the Holy Spirit etc. You just can’t do that. But what’s more common is people mislabeling techniques, something like cardio kickboxing where they tell you this is for self-defence. Misleading people will get them hurt. Therefore, a problem also exists regarding that mislabeling technique. #### **3: Unsafe training practices** Then you have rule number three, which is lying about your belt, rank and fight record. Anyone who’s willing to lie about their [belt rank](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/) and fight record will probably lie about anything, leading to unsafe training practices and cult-like behaviour. Unsafe training practices are things like having your students line up and just punching them in the head and telling them that will help them strengthen their chin. That’s not how that works. You’re probably more likely to make them easier to knock out. #### **4: Cult-like behaviour** [Cult-like behaviour](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-clapping-ritual-motivation/ "Priit Mihkelson On The BJJ Clapping Ritual & Self Determination Theory") is almost in every martial art in some way. It’s hard not to see cults absolutely everywhere. It all just depends on who’s getting the benefit, which usually means the instructors are getting more benefit than you are. Even in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, there’s a phrase called Creonte. This phrase is commonly used for students who simply just want to train in another gym once or twice. And that’s very culty saying by some instructers “No, you can’t go train, you only train with me?” If people like to go to another gym, it doesn’t mean they’re a trader. It means that they’re trying to better themselves outside of the small bubble that you’ve created that they can’t breakthrough. That’s a cult, you’re telling them what they can and cannot do with their lives specifically, or they will be excommunicated from the group. You will no longer be a part of this affiliation if you train there. That’s a cult. #### **5: Shady business practices** Shady business practices are pretty standard. You can see many people who scam people by stating a standard fee when you sign up. The student pays that fee, and then all of a sudden other magical fees pop out for a black belt program. If you don’t go to the black belt program, you can’t move up in rank. These are very shady business practices. And at the end of the day, these seem to be the major issues in the industry. So the goal is to stop looking at so much of the petty crap and start looking at major issues that we can fix that are actual issues. #### **You should wait until you are 16 years old to become a black belt**. Getting a black belt at a very young age is also a misconception of MacDojo. Rob says, “I personally think that you shouldn’t have your black belt until at least you’re 16 years old.” Many people get their black belt when they’re five years old, eight years old etc. Rob says, “The only problem with that is we would have lost so many great martial artists. If that was actually the case.” #### **Self-regulation is best for the industry**. Rob says, “People have asked me all the time, why don’t you start a governing body? And I don’t think that’s how it should work. First, absolute power always corrupts. So when you have a governing body in charge, what’s stopping them from corrupting it and ruining it for all of us? So, community spreading general information about what really to worry about what really to look for what the real red flags are is really the best way to do it. Because if we start really starting setting up a governing body, how do you do that? There are over 2000 different versions of Karate. That means 2000 figureheads of Karate. And that’s just karate. Same goes for BJJ, Taekwondo, etc. Who are we going to say that this is the guy we want to represent for all of us? And what happens when you have petty fighting for the position of a figurehead? He doesn’t deserve it because he deserves it. So self-regulation is really the way to go through honesty, and making sure that we draw lines where we really attack people.” ### McDojo Life Resources - [McDojoLife Instagram](http://www.instagram.com/McDojoLife) - [McDojoLife Facebook](http://www.facebook.com/McDojoLife) - [McDojoLife Twitter](http://www.twitter.com/McDojoLife) - [McDojoLife YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/McDojoLife) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to rate, subscribe and share the podcast. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Sam Kressin On Contrarian Grappling By Combining Catch Wrestling & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/) **Published:** January 10, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sam Kressin - Contrarian Grappling & Combining Catch Wrestling With Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sam_kressin-1024x576.webp "Sam Kressin › Sonny Brown")I talk to Sam Kressin, a Black Belt in BJJ who also trained extensively with catch wrestling legend Billy Robinson. Sam is also a talented visual artist with a degree in exercise and sports science and runs Embodied Strength. We discuss how he found jiu-jitsu and [catch wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/ "The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon") in his martial arts journey, his time spent training both, and the process of combining them. He also coaches grappling and catch wrestling workshops for Scientific Wrestling and gives an excellent insight into his coaching philosophy. ## Listen To Sam Kressin ### YouTube #### Apple #### Google #### Spotify ### TimeStamps \[00:00\] - Introduction To Sam Kressin Interview \[02:39\] - Sam’s Backstory About How He Got Into Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, and Karate \[11:42\] - Being Open to the Idea of Bringing Different Martial Arts Styles Into Jiu-Jitsu \[12:43\] - Sam’s Meeting With Chris Haueter \[14:14\] - Jiu-Jitsu Has an Ego-Driven Culture — The Foundation Is to Impose Your Will on Someone Else \[24:11\] - How Sam Came Across Catch Wrestling \[34:24\] - Sonny and Sam’s Thoughts About Modern Jiu-Jitsu (Stylistically) \[35:49\] - The Two Talk About the Different Styles of Jiu-Jitsu \[39:08\] - The Way Wade Schalles Engineered His Wrestling \[44:03\] - Billy Robinson’s Style of Coaching \[51:30\] - How Can Techniques in Catch Wrestling Be Applicable in the Modern Jiu-Jitsu Game \[54:34\] - Sam’s Approach to Teaching the Texas Cloverleaf, Karl Gotch Toe Hold, and Leg Turking \[1:00:35\] - The Problems That Come up When You Go From GI to No-GI \[1:08:57\] – The Ways That People Can Better Utilize Motor Learning and Exercise Science \[1:18:06\] - The Way the Rules Have Evolved the Sports Themselves \[1:20:30\] - With Rulesets Changing and Evolving, Grappling Styles Are Becoming Homogenous \[1:25:40\] - The Way Beliefs of People Are Shaping Grappling and Its Rulesets \[1:38:00\] - The Idea of the Contrarian Grappler \[1:43:57\] - Common Mistakes When Drawing a Grappling Technique ## Topics #### **How Sam got into grappling** For his whole life, he's been involved in [martial arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mma-northern-beaches/). He started Karate when he was eight years old and practised Tang-soo-do Karate, the Korean version of Karate. It's not the same as taekwondo which is a common misconception. The forms and moves in Tang-soo-do are the same as in Okinawan hardstyle karate. Later, he started competing in Karate competitions globally and learned Jiu-Jitsu from Trent Suzuki. #### **The problems Switching from Gi to No-Gi and vice-versa** When you go from No-Gi to Gi, the biggest problem that the No-Gi guy faces is that the position is now contingent upon grips. So whoever wins and establishes the dominant grips will usually have the upper hand. And when you're going from Gi to No-Gi, the problem that the Gi grappler faces as they go is that they think it's all attribute-based or more explosive. They believe that because they're used to being in control of the pace of the match and the speed of grappling. That belief has been developed as they relied upon the friction of the GI and the grips. You can slow things down and make the match move at a much slower pace in Gi because you can grab the back of the jacket, the sleeve, and the belt. You can hold onto so many places to make the match get into this isometric battle, a stalemate kind of position. #### **Motor learning: An analogy of tennis players and racquetball players** Motor learning has many different components, one of which is learning transfer. Learning transfer is when learning one skill helps you with the learning of another skill. To illustrate this concept, we can make a comparison similar to the Gi and No-gi situation between a tennis player and a racquetball player. Both are very similar sports, but the difference is a racquetball player hits the ball with a broken wrist. This means when they hit the ball, their wrist snaps and breaks the plane, as their objective is to hit the ball as hard as they can and hit it on that wall in such a manner that it bounces back in a way that the opponent can't return to hit. In tennis, they hit with a stiff wrist, meaning when they hit the ball, they don't break the plane of the wrist because they have to hit the ball into the court. They're trying to get spin; they're trying to return the ball with a bounce in a location where their opponent can't return the hit. So right there, you see similar goals in both sports with a technical difference. Generally, the tennis player has an easier time going over to racquetball than the racquetball player has in going over tennis. Because even if they continue to hit with a stiff wrist, they will not have a problem. They're still going to be able to hit the wall and come back. But if the racquetball player starts hitting and falls back to their old habit of hitting with a broken wrist, the ball will go out of the court or won't reach the target. So that's where you can experience a motor learning issue, transferring from Gi to No-gi and No-gi to Gi. #### How **Wrestling could have evolved if it was not weight-class-driven** One of the things wrestling is criticized for is how a small wrestler cannot beat a bigger wrestler. In regards to this, Jiu-jitsu is better because it's well known that a small guy can beat a larger guy as you can [pull guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) and win off your back. The influence of rules in wrestling has been weight-class-driven for so long that it doesn't develop wrestlers to compete in an absolute division. There are no open-weight wrestling tournaments where you might see a 120-pound guy against a much larger guy. Wade Schalles said what he would do when he was in the wrestling room was to wrestle with the bigger guys to let them try to take him down. He would try to figure out their preferred takedown, and then he would lead them into that takedown, but make sure that they're in a bad position when they get into it. And so it was interesting because if wrestling had no weight classes, there could have been a style of wrestling like this that would have evolved. But it didn't happen because the rules of the sport have been weight-class-driven for so long. #### **The rulesets are changing and evolving the sports** The different grappling rulesets are changing and evolving the sports, but all the grappling styles will eventually become homogenous. They'll become the same because they will be defined by whatever the rules are, and the most prominent grappling culture will define the rules that everyone's competing under. The practitioners' rules and belief systems will influence the direction it evolves. #### **The idea of the contrarian grappler** The contrarian is the guy looking in places where other people aren't looking, and he's trying to pay attention to things that other people aren't. It's interesting because if you were into [leg locks,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) you were contrarian for a while. But not anymore now that everybody's looking at [leg locks](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). So whatever is contrarian, it's constantly in a flux of change. #### **Common Mistakes When Drawing a Grappling Technique** One of the common mistakes that someone would make that ruins the grappling move is we could always go back and look at the fundamentals of their drawing, like if there's a perspective issue, meaning they don't understand how an arm should look when it's shortened at a specific angle. Things are going back to a vanishing point on a horizon line. The vanishing point is when you're looking down a highway and everything's going to vanish on a horizon towards a point or two, depending on where you're angled as the viewer. So perspective issues can throw off drawings easily. You can go to the fundamentals of your perspective. Proportions can throw off the drawing if you don't understand the figure's proportions, meaning how long the arm is compared to the torso and how long the legs are in contrast to the upper body. If you know the proportions of the human body, then your drawings might look a little more believable. ## Sam Kressin Resources #### Sam Kressin Quotes > "A lot of moves in jujitsu are non-dynamic, meaning you can basically break it down into steps." > > - Sam Kressin > "Don't practice the move both sides when you learn it, learn it on your good side first, and then let your good side teach your bad side later." > > - Sam Kressin #### Sam Kressin Links - [Sam Kressin Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/worldsdeadliestart/?hl=en "Sam Kressin Instagram") - [Catch Wrestling Submissions Systems By Sam Kressin](https://bjjfanatics.com/products/catch-wrestling-submissions-systems-by-sam-kressin "Catch Wrestling Submissions Systems By Sam Kressin") - [Sam Kressin Website](https://samkressin.com/ "Sam Kressin Website") - [Sam Kressin YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/samkressin "Sam Kressin YouTube") - [Embodied Strength](https://embodiedstrength.com/ "Embodied Strength") - [Scientific Wrestling](https://www.scientificwrestling.com "Scientific Wrestling") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to rate, subscribe and share the podcast. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Steve Kwan On BJJ Mental Models, Concepts, Principles & Online Learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) **Published:** February 24, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Steve Kwan - BJJ Mental Models](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_bjjmm_wide_tn-1024x576.png "tsbb_bjjmm_wide_tn › Sonny Brown")I talk to [Steve Kwan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models-learn-efficient/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") of the BJJ Mental Models Podcast in a Crossover Episode! We talk about how his podcast has influenced his own game, the most important concepts he learned from his podcast guests and the debate over concepts vs techniques. Further, we discuss learning Jiu-Jitsu online and the multiple online learning platforms and instructions out there and how you can go about finding one that best suits your needs and improves your grappling. ## Listen to Steve Kwan ### Apple ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown") ### Google ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown") ### Spotify ![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown") ### YouTube ## Timestamps \[02:53\] - How Steve's podcast has influenced his own Jiu-Jitsu game \[06:09\] - Top 20% of mental models that Steve finds relevant today \[08:09\] - Understanding that no concept is absolute \[09:45\] - Advice on developing the skill of knowing when to use certain concepts \[13:05\] - Jiu-jitsu is fun and addictive in a way that a lot of physical activities aren't \[16:04\] - Mistakes people make in Jiu-jitsu \[19:09\] - Downsides of trying to minimise everything completely to some principles \[22:36\] - Tips for people interested in doing a reverse classroom model \[28:05\] - Consistency is itself a mental model \[34:36\] - Suggestion on choosing which jiu-jitsu subscription site you should try out \[39:04\] - Mistakes people make while choosing a jiu-jitsu subscription \[43:06\] - How you can incorporate your content into the game \[47:49\] - The reason why jiu-jitsu struggled to attract people outside of the target demographic ## Topics ### **How Steve Kwan's Podcast has Influenced his Own Jiu-Jitsu Game** Steve has been doing BJJ Mental Models Podcasts for three years. He says his podcast is the biggest inspiration for his Jiu-jitsu game because, through podcasting, he is able to get access to some of the most brilliant people in the sport. Asking questions to them has proven way more helpful than any instructional ha has ever purchased. The nice thing about doing the podcast is it allows him to meet intelligent people who either validate him or challenge him. It has allowed him to engage in Jiu-jitsu at a more conceptual level than people get when they're just training. Especially during the pandemic, when he was not able to train for a long time, it helped him keep Jiu-jitsu in his mind while doing the interviews. ### **Problem with the Standard Three-part Class Structure** The big thing that most people don't do when teaching is, adopt some degree of deliberate practice. Most instructors run their classes beginning with a warm-up, then a coach shows three techniques, and you copy them, and then there is live sparring. The problem is most people have a real hard time learning and adopting anything new out of that class structure. Because what winds up happening is, when you're drilling a technique that your coach showed you, you're doing dead drilling against a non-resisting opponent, which is not a helpful way to learn. And then, when you go off into live sparring, you're usually trying to win. And when you're trying to win, you're not going to be using techniques that you're not very good at; you're going to play your game. ### Steve Kwan On The **Three Mistakes People Make in Jiu-jitsu**. Anyone in Jiu-jitsu can immediately supercharge their defensive capabilities if they do these three things: 1. Never let your opponent get control of your neck. 2. Never let your opponent get control of your knees or your elbows. 3. Never let your opponent settle their way down on top of you. ### **You Need Both Techniques and Concepts**. You need both concepts and techniques. You can't just have one or the other. If you only do techniques, and you're never thinking at a higher level, then your [jiu-jitsu game](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) is basically just based on rote memorization. There's not going to be any creativity there; you're going to have a tough time adapting to unforeseen circumstances. And you're going to have a very minimal understanding of why you're doing what you're doing. On the other hand, if you only do concepts, you're going to have a hard time understanding how all of the stuff works in practice. So at the end of the day, this is a physical art, and it takes physical effort to get movement into your muscle memory. ### **There is No Substitute for Being in a Gym**. People went to zoom classes for Jiu-jitsu training during the pandemic, and something is better than nothing. But there's no substitute for actually being in a gym. However, there is no question that other, more creative teaching methods can augment your knowledge. The most obvious example is [technique libraries and instructional](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) videos. They're not a substitute for training in class, but you're going to get a totally different level of stuff than you would ever get just showing up for class. So if your interest is in educating and ideally monetizing online, then don't try to copy the practice of just doing Jiu-jitsu. Try to find the thing you can do uniquely that allows you to fill a niche that no one else has been able to fill. ### **Consistency is the BJJ Mental Model for Success** Consistency is in itself a [mental model](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/). You need to shoot as many shots as you can if you want to succeed over the long term because much of success is just being in the right place at the right time with the right skill set. And the only way that you can curate that and get into that situation is to just fire the revolver as many times as you possibly can. So if you are interested in doing any online coaching or content creation, you need to be incredibly stubborn to the point where you just don't give up easily, especially in adversity and failure. And you have to have an open, honest talk with yourself out of the gate about what I am willing to commit to on a forever roadmap. ### **Suggestions on Choosing A Jiu-jitsu Subscription Site** A lot of people don't sign up for the subscription because they get overwhelmed by choice. There's so much choice out there now that you can almost get analysis paralysis trying to choose which sites you want to use. But the good thing is most of the sites usually offer a free trial. So you should pick one, try it. And if you don't like it, just cancel it. ## Steve Kwan Resources ### Steve Kwan Links - [BJJ Mental Models Website](https://bjjmentalmodels.com/ "BJJ Mental Models") - [BJJ Mental Models Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/bjjmentalmodels/) - [BJJ Mental Models Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3JMczv6cufhxjeq2D8ANjQ "BJJ Mental Models Youtube") - [Previous Episode With Steve Kwan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models-learn-efficient/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") - [Previous Episode With Matt Kwan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-kwan-interview-blading-tempo-cycles/ "Matt Kwan on BJJ Mental Models of Blading, Tempo & Establishing Offensive Cycles") If you enjoyed this episode of **The [Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Erin Herle On Submit the Stigma & Mental Health in Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erin-herle-submit-stigma-mental-health/) **Published:** September 20, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Erin Herle - Submit the Stigma & Mental Health in Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/erin_herle_header-1024x576.jpg "Erin Herle - Submit The Stigma › Sonny Brown")I talk to **Erin Herle**, a BJJ black belt and the founder of [\#submitthestigma](https://www.submitthestigma.org/), a mental health advocacy group for combat sports and Jiu-Jitsu. We discuss the work that #submitthestigma does and the interplay, boundaries, and roles that Jiu-Jitsu training can play in mental health, the mental side of the competition, and fighting. We also discussed ways to become confident, have a strong sense of [self-belief](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/ "Heath Pedigo on Daisy Fresh Jiu-Jitsu & Pedigo Submission Fighting For the Future"), and how to build beneficial connections with training partners through communication. Erin also shares her own Jiu-Jitsu competition experience and how that has affected her and her transition into MMA. We also dive into heavier topics like depression and suicide and why Jiu-Jitsu shouldn't be seen as a replacement for therapy. > "A boundary is not just about the self. A boundary affects other people too. And where you put that boundary could either create growth or stifle growth." > > - Erin Herle Table Of Contents 1. [Listen to Erin Herle](#listen-to-erin-herle) - [Apple](#apple) - - [Spotify](#spotify) - - [YouTube](#youtube) 2. [Timestamps](#timestamps) 3. [Topics](#topics) - [Erin Herle’s Background](#erin-herles-background) - - [The # in Submit The Stigma](#the-in-submit-the-stigma) - - [Mental Training In Jiu-Jitsu](#mental-training-in-jiu-jitsu) - - [Being a White Belt Helped Her in Other Areas of Life](#being-a-white-belt-helped-her-in-other-areas-of-life) - - [Mental Health Is Synonymous With Sports](#mental-health-is-synonymous-with-sports) - - [The Professional Athlete in Jiu-Jitsu](#the-professional-athlete-in-jiu-jitsu) - - [Jiu-Jitsu Allows You to Put Yourself in Stressful Situations](#jiu-jitsu-allows-you-to-put-yourself-in-stressful-situations) - - [Technique and Confidence](#technique-and-confidence) - - [Take Time Instead of Just Reacting](#take-time-instead-of-just-reacting) - - [Jiu-Jitsu Is Not a Replacement for Therapy](#jiu-jitsu-is-not-a-replacement-for-therapy) - - [The Similarity Between Cats and Depressed Humans](#the-similarity-between-cats-and-depressed-humans) - - [Don't Feel Bad About Losing](#dont-feel-bad-about-losing) 4. [Erin Herle Resources](#erin-herle-resources) - [Erin Herle Quotes](#erin-herle-quotes) - - [Erin Herle Links](#erin-herle-links) ## Listen to **Erin Herle** #### Apple <https://apple.co/2Zslm1x> #### Spotify <https://spoti.fi/2XM3dLL> #### YouTube ## **Timestamps** \[00:00\] – Introduction to Episode 045 \[03:44\] - Erin’s Background in MMA and Jiu-Jitsu \[06:16\] - Why She Used # In the Name of Submit The Stigma \[10:20\] - What Caused Her to Start #Submitthestigma? \[14:25\] - How Is Mental Health Synonymous With Sports? \[18:04\] - Professional Athlete in Jiu-Jitsu Is Just a Mindset \[21:54\] – How Confidence Can Overpower Techniques \[24:50\] - How a Psychiatrist or Psychologist Is Going to Help You? \[27:08\] - How Does Jiu-Jitsu Help You Mentally? \[28:21\] - How Does Erin Take Care of Her Mental Health? \[31:49\] - The Similarity Between Depressed People and Cats \[33:56\] - Why Should People Normalize Talking About Their Feelings \[37:54\] - How Does Erin’s Organization Help People With Mental Health Issues? \[42:17\] - How Does She React to Unsolicited Advice by People? \[44:02\] - How Does She Handle Awkwardness With Her Training Partners \[46:27\] - A Great Advice She Got From Audrey Winters \[51:03\] - The Challenges That Female Jiu-Jitsu Athletes Face \[52:52\] - Best Ways People Can Train With the Partner of the Opposite Gender \[56:20\] - “Female-Only Classes Are Great, but Don’t Stay There.” \[1:01:24\] - How to Build Beneficial Connections With Training Partners Through Communication ## **Topics** #### **Erin Herle’s Background** Erin is a BJJ black belt. She got her belt in 2017 from Rubens "Cobrinha" Charles. She started [training jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) in the summer of 2009, and she started competing right away. In 2014 she started training with Marcello Garcia. Since 2016 she began teaching in international seminars. She did workshops in Paris, Wales, Madrid, and Barcelona, etc. In 2015 after when her dad died by suicide, she started the NPO #submitthestigma. #### **The # in Submit The Stigma** Erin says, "the hashtag is there because I want it to be shared. I want it to be a connection and to build a community for people who have mental illness not only within the Jiu-Jitsu but also the people that need mental wellness." #### **Mental Training In Jiu-Jitsu** There's a lot of [mental learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) in Jiu-Jitsu. It's a lot about will. It's not the same as a dancer team. We're [learning techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) in Jiu-Jitsu. But when you're actually applying them, someone else is trying to screw up your dancer team. It's not as clean-cut. So when you're drilling a technique, you have to think about all the possible options, all the possible moves that your opponent is going to do. And when you learn something in Jiu-Jitsu, it's part of a whole system. You've to learn a lot of stuff in Jiu-Jitsu, and it's all mental, especially when you're working with other people. #### **Being a White Belt Helped Her in Other Areas of Life** Erin says, "learning how to be a white belt helped me in every other area of my life. So, being a white belt again means accepting that you don't know anything." #### **Mental Health Is Synonymous With Sports** She relates mental health in terms of performance, in terms of liking yourself, and just being happy with yourself. Many of the training camps that she came up with were like "you've to suffer." If you're not suffering, then you're not training hard enough. If you like what you eat, you're not dieting hard enough. So mental health is just synonymous with sports. #### **The Professional Athlete in Jiu-Jitsu** She says, "Many people say that to be professional, you get paid. I guess it's just a mindset. But it's hard to say about Jiu-Jitsu because the only governing authorities like the IBJJF are for-profit companies. They regulate us only because we choose to." #### **Jiu-Jitsu Allows You to Put Yourself in Stressful Situations** It's not fun work to be in a bad position and try over and over again. And maybe your partner is choking you the exact same way, seven different times. But how lucky are you to have that person choke you in the exact same way seven different times? The information that you gather from that is going to be good. So Jiu-Jitsu allows you to put yourself in stressful situations. And then, in a moment of calm and an environment atmosphere of learning, you are able to learn so much about how you react and why you're reacting." #### **Technique and Confidence** At some point, belief and confidence can be more important than techniques themselves. If someone has good technique, they can lose to someone who has more of a belief in themselves. And that belief in that confidence can somewhat overpower techniques sometimes. #### **Take Time Instead of Just Reacting** Take the time instead of just reacting to everything in life. That's unexpected, but this way, you have more time to think about why you're doing what you do. And instead of just reacting, you respond. And then when you respond, you're going back into the technique that you were taught, or the knowledge that you have, or the previous experiences you've had in this position. In this way, you're able to create a good response. #### **Jiu-Jitsu Is Not a Replacement for Therapy** These days a lot of people say, "Well, I go to jiu-jitsu. That's my therapy. And there are people on Instagram who are like- I know everything about psychology. Just go to the spa. Buy yourself some stuff. That's all crap." The best way that Erin has found is that anecdotes and stories help so far. She explains this by giving an example "Say you're standing in a line. But you and the dude in front of you are just like totally irked peeved like; I don't want to be there. And someone just says, man, last time I stood in the line this long, I shit my pants, and then you're like, Oh, my God, me too. And then you have this instant bond. It's like being able to share that you're not alone. Or maybe you can tell a tremendous drunk story. And sometimes, maybe there's no help to be given. It's just hear me out. Let me tell you; you're not alone. #### **The Similarity Between Cats and Depressed Humans** When a cat sense death, it just accepts it and hides itself. Depressed people share the same characteristic. So, people who feel depressed or have issues feel like a burden. They don't want to burden someone else with their problems. And so they usually turn inward and feel alone and isolate themselves. #### **Don't Feel Bad About Losing** When you lose a game, you could either say, wow, I lost. I didn't get first place. I'm second. I'm the first loser. Or you could say how many people had to lose in the bracket. So there are 16 people in the bracket. Yeah, 15 people lost. Go talk to those people and feel less bad about losing. Or you can go to another person to say, Yeah, I have a world title. And I've also lost a world title in the final. So, it makes you realize that you're not going through something that's never happened before. Like, it's not uncharted territory. It didn't happen to you because of you. ## **Erin Herle** Resources ### **Erin Herle** Quotes > "It's okay to fail. You have to fail. Failing is part of learning. Failing is part of growth." > > - Erin Herle > "People will die by their own hand because they feel alone." > > - Erin Herle > "No role is useless." > > - Erin Herle > "If you hurt someone in jiu-jitsu, you're doing it wrong." > > - Erin Herle ### **Erin Herle** Links - [Erin Herle Website](https://www.erinherle.com/) - [Erin Herle LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinherle/) - [Erin Herle Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/erinherlebjj) - [Erin Herle Twitter](https://twitter.com/erineherle?lang=en) - [Erin Herle Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/erinherle/?hl=en) - [\#submitthestigma Website](http://www.submitthestigma.org/) - [\#submitthestigma Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/submitthestigma/?hl=en) If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Erin Herle Interview On Submit The Stigma](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/erin_herle_promo-1024x1024.jpg "erin_herle_promo › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Plus, Minus, Equals training system of Frank Shamrock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/plus-minus-equals-system-shamrock-training/) **Published:** February 25, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Frank Shamrock & Plus, Minus, Equals](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/plus_minus_equals-1024x576.jpg "Frank Shamrock & Plus, Minus, Equals › Sonny Brown")Frank Shamrock was an early pioneer of mixed martial arts and had a special **Plus, Minus, Equals training system** that gave him a unique approach to cross-training and fight strategy. It enabled him to become the first UFC light heavyweight champion before vacating it after an all-time classic match against Tito Ortiz. He formed an alliance and **cross-trained** his shoot wrestling style with the kickboxing skills of Maurice Smith and the Judo & Jiu-Jitsu guard work of Tsuyoshi Kohsaka and successfully blended them together to form a **well-rounded skill set**. Each member of the alliance was able to help each other improve in a different area and in many ways exemplifies his plus, minus and equals training system which we will discuss in this article. Table Of Contents 1. [The Plus](#the-plus) 2. [The Minus](#the-minus) 3. [The Equal](#the-equal) ![Plus, Minus, Equals Training System](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/plus_minus_equals_system-300x114.png "plus_minus_equals_system › Sonny Brown") Perhaps due to its inclusion in the book "[Ego is the Enemy](https://www.sonnybrown.net/what-does-leave-your-ego-at-the-door-mean/ "What Does “Leave Your Ego at the Door” Mean?")" by author Ryan Holiday one of the most notable aspects of **Frank Shamrock's** training is his system of plus, equals and minus. The plus, equals and minus formula is as simple as have a training partner that is better than you, at the same level and of lesser skill than you, which will enable you to always continue learning and growing. Author [Ryan Holiday](https://ryanholiday.net/) explains the benefit of the system as follows: > "The purpose of Shamrock's formula is simple, to get real and continuous feedback about what they know and what they don't know, from every angle." - Ryan Holiday Let's now go more in-depth about how the three parts of the plus, minus and equals system will connect. ## The Plus The plus will be a martial artist who is more skilled than you who you can learn from and will expose your gaps. In many cases, this will be your coach who will have more expertise on the subject than you but also sparring partners who can put that knowledge into action. The coach can provide the role of mentoring, training guidance and knowledge of techniques that can help develop your martial arts skills. But martial artists will always have a coach who should fill this role except in the rare case that someone was self-training and if so they should go find a coach to become "the plus" immediately. Sparring partners who are also a step above you will fill this role as you need someone to be exposing the weak areas in your game to help you become aware of them and give you the incentive to work on them. Without a [partner who can best you in training,](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) then you are merely giving yourself delusional confidence that may be exposed in a real fight or confrontation. These mini losses in practice will help you grow, and you want to have these experiences in the gym in an environment where your partner is helping you to learn rather than for it to occur in a public competition setting. ## The Minus The minus will be a martial artist who is of lesser skill than you who you can teach and help grow. It is someone that you can help along the way to improve their skill set, and in the process, it will help you gain a deeper understanding and appreciation of your skills. It many ways the best way to understand is to figure out how to teach it to another person, and these people will provide an opportunity to do so, ensuring they are willing. Simply giving unsolicited to people can be very frustrating, and some peoples pet peeves in the gym when it is considered the primary responsibility of the coach. Another practical way that you need to have someone who is a minus is you need someone who can help you put implement skills you have just learned before you can get them to work at a higher level. When you learn a new technique, the chances of you being able to execute it flawlessly at first will be very slim. But you might be able to make it work on someone less skilled than you while you refine the application of the technique over repetitions. Whereas if you immediately try to apply a new technique on someone who is of more considerable skill, it might be stopped immediately before it, you can see it develop into being usable. Ideally, you can take a new ability and troubleshoot it on a minus to a point where it starts working on equals and further and then get a chance to show that technique and any possible counters to your training partner to help them also benefit from the process. ## The Equal The will be a martial artist who is roughly at the same skill level and can match you in sparring. It can be someone who started training at the same time as you or someone with who you happen to be matching skill levels with but overall these are people who are at the same point in their development as you. Now we can consider every one of our training partners as our equals as everyone trains together with the same goal of improving and solving the same problems. It can be everyone in your gym being on the same team and all trying to strengthen each other on the same journey. But at a more individual level, you want to have people who are matching you in training with neither person able to get a clear advantage. These sessions with people who have been your equals should be fun and enjoyable and will also give you a guide to know if you or they have improved. It would help if you were motivating each other by knowing that you are on the same course together and that you are helping each other grow and develop in a way that can be more team building than being bested by someone better than you. A practical example is having a group of people preparing for a competition on the same day. Everyone can help push each other and raise the overall level of the group as everyone works towards the same goal. ![The Plus, Minus, Equals Training System of Frank Shamrock](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/frankshamrock_plus_minus_equal.jpg "frankshamrock_plus_minus_equal › Sonny Brown") ### The Plus, Minus, Equals Training System The plus, minus or equals training system will be there if you look for it after training for a short period of time. Even if it's just having the plus being your coach and the equal being your training partners. Once identified, you can use the system to provide you with continuous real-time feedback on your [progress throughout training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/). Getting that constant feedback will help keep you grounded and honest about your skill level and in the book "The Ego is the Enemy" the chapter that discusses this focuses on always remaining a student throughout life. [Frank Shamrock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Shamrock "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Shamrock") describes the benefit of doing so as follows: > "False ideas about yourself destroy you. For me, I always stay a student, that's what martial arts are about, and you have to use the humility as a tool". - Frank Shamrock The system of plus, minus and equals training will simplify the process of remaining a student by giving you a readily identifiable way to learn new skills, collaborate as a team and share what you know with others while continuing to grow, improve and strengthen yourself as a [martial artist](https://www.sonnybrown.net/four-principles-required-develop-martial-arts-talent/ "Four Principles of Martial Arts Skill Development"). ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Jahred Dell On Teaching Jiu-Jitsu Students & High School Students](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jahred-dell-teaching-jiu-jitsu-school/) **Published:** August 18, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jahred Dell BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jahred_dell-1024x576.jpg "Jahred Dell on Teaching › Sonny Brown")In this episode, **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast,** I talk to **Jahred Dell-** host of The Articulate BJJ Podcast, a high-school teacher, and owner of the website ArticulateBJJ.com where he writes excellent articles about the art, sport and lifestyle of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. We discussed his thoughts on the crossovers between teaching a class of high school students and jiu-jitsu students. > "The one who likes going a little bit beyond the teachings of the coach is gonna progress faster. Even if it's just adding one detail or putting more of the setup into it." > > - Jahred Dell Table Of Contents 1. [Listen to Jahred Dell](#listen-to-jahred-dell) - [Youtube](#youtube) 2. [Timestamps](#timestamps) 3. [Topics](#topics) - [Teaching Jiu-Jitsu](#teaching-jiu-jitsu) - - [Learning Jiu-Jitsu](#learning-jiu-jitsu) - - [Peer Teaching](#peer-teaching) 4. [Resources](#resources) - [Jahred Dell Quotes](#jahred-dell-quotes) - - [Jahred Dell Links](#jahred-dell-links) ## Listen to Jahred Dell ### Youtube ## Timestamps \[00:00\] – Introduction to Episode 001 \[01:30\] - Jahred’s Shares His Teaching Methodology \[02:43\] - Jahred’s Teaching Approach \[04:04\] - The Best Way to Keep the Engagement Rate High in the BJJ \[06:54\] - The New Zealand Curriculum \[07:28\] - What Pushes People Away From Learning New Things \[08:31\] - Methodology of Best Instructors \[09:35\] - Drilling Versus Concept-Based Teaching \[12:23\] - Enjoyment: A Key Ingredient of Development \[15:20\] - Using Jiu-Jitsu as a Catalyst to Open Up the Love of Learning \[19:09\] - Techniques to Build Confidence \[21:06\] - Jahred’s First Experience of Jiu-Jitsu \[23:15\] - The Best Way to Encourage the Culture of Peer-Teaching \[27:00\] - Importance of Getting Feedback \[36:01\] - How He Processes Feedback and Turns Them Into Constructive Ideas \[40:23\] - Culminating Interest in Students Mind \[44:33\] - Responsibility of a Teacher \[47:12\] - Problem With Acting in the Martial Arts Room \[50:10\] - How Jahred Got Confidence for Teaching \[56:47\] - Effect of Social Media on Learning \[59:46\] - Importance of Books in His Life \[1:04:52\] - The Best Way to Contact Jahred ## Topics ### Teaching Jiu-Jitsu #### Teaching On Mat To The Lowest Common Denominator Jahred says that he's been teaching for five years and has worked with students with various learning abilities. He says, "if you're going to think about teaching on the mat, or in a classroom, that's like the Lowest Common Denominator. So the idea is that everyone's coming in with a different range of experiences. And you have to assume that some people on the mats are inexperienced or new to the sport. It might be the case of someone with a very low reading or writing ability. You have to teach that person. And if you can enrich the learning, then everyone else can benefit." #### His Approach Of Teaching To Diverse Students Jahred has been teaching Jiu-jitsu classes for years now. And what he has observed from his experience is that if you can bring a detail-oriented approach to the beginners, it will help not only the beginners but also the advanced students. To add and enrich stuff that they might have forgotten or that they've been neglecting. He sees merit for beginners and advanced classes as separate, but he also thinks conducting mixed classes is crucial. #### Keeping The Engagement Rate High Often, while showing techniques or when the students are not engaged in any activity, they're slacking off or looking uninterested in the class. He says the key to keep the engagement rate high in a BJJ room is- "Specify the advanced students. Inform them of their strategy and let them put it into their game." By the time someone is getting a Blue or Purple belt, they've got some idea of the technique you are showing them and have enough responsibility in their own learning. Also, they can engage themselves in giving feedback to their [training partners](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/). He says from his experience that the students that he saw taking the biggest ownership in the learnings were the ones that progressed the fastest. Also, if they are enjoying it more, that will decrease the rate of people dropping out and quitting Jiu-Jitsu. #### The Students Who're Gonna Progress Faster He says there're some students (beginners or advanced) who're just sitting there and going like, "Oh, yeah, the coach just told me to drill the Armbar. So I'm just going to drill the Armbar. That's great. But it's the one who's going a little bit beyond that, even if it's just adding one detail or putting more of the setup into it, is going to progress faster. #### Fostering Lifelong Learning According to Jahred, fostering lifelong learning is the best way of [teaching when it comes to teaching kids](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/). It's like you're injecting an idea or technique into them, and they're going to benefit much more later on. When you think about it, learning is just another habit, like getting up and making your bed or washing the dishes. Learning is the same. It's putting yourself into a mindset where you can absorb and inform. But we, as adults, forget that a little bit when we step onto the mat. We're like, "Well, I pay fees to be here." With all these and other things going on in our heads, we forget that we're there to absorb. And sometimes this pushes us away from the learning, and we say, "Oh, I'm just gonna do what my coach is doing." By doing this, you relieve yourself of any responsibility. So, how will you progress? He says, "I see those guys progressing slower than the ones who take on board and ask the right questions, and also add the right techniques." #### Experimenting With Techniques He says, "All of the best instructors that I've seen, they're not just showing the move in isolation. They're also explaining to you the bigger picture of why you're doing it. And I think that really helps to inform you as a student on where you want to take the technique." He further says, "I'm not just going to do that. I'm going to add it onto things I know and see how these things work in synergy with each other. So it's like having your teacher there to guide you, and facilitate that experimentation in a way that you can get strong feedback." ### Learning Jiu-Jitsu #### Drilling Versus Concept-Based Teaching About the ongoing debate between Drilling and Concept-based training, he thinks it's the contrast between the beginner and advanced. You can't just go to the beginner and tell them "Here's a concept. Learn it". When they have no idea of the breadth yet, you can't expect them to understand the depth. Drilling is excellent for white or even blue belts. Because you're drilling stuff to get the breadth of Jiu-Jitsu down, understanding all these techniques and how they work. And then, conceptually, once you have that breadth of understanding, you can build the depth underneath with concepts. No white belt will come in and get to know what you mean about framing unless they've first learned how to put those frames in place. So the interplay between the two is really important. And also, you can't take either of them for granted. #### Constructive Feedback The [constructive feedback ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/ "Proper Etiquette To Being A Good BJJ Training Partner")is vital to both the teacher and student's ongoing development. Feedback clarifies expectations, helps people learn from their mistakes and builds confidence. Positive feedback is easy – it's not hard to find the right words to tell someone they've done a good job or congratulate them on getting an achievement. When things are going well, it can be easy to become complacent about giving praise but stopping and smelling the roses is important to build confidence and encourage a culture in which both teacher and student nurture and support one another. #### Expectations As A Teacher According to Jahred, as a teacher, you need to sense the room and be the person they need you to be. They're paying at the end of the day. So that's your responsibility. It's your job. It's literally what they're expecting from you in your service. He says, "The thing I think that comes from the students perspective is how much you're putting into it, and be honest with yourself about that. Hobbyists have this error about it, that they are doing the most in the room. And it's maybe because they don't know any different, or maybe they haven't engaged enough to see that, or they think that the three times a week that they're coming means that everyone else is only doing three days a week. They're still in that stage of what we call naive ignorance." So his main role as a teacher is to mould himself into different moods to get amongst his students and make the best out of them. ### Peer Teaching #### Social Media and Learning There's a sheer mass of information on YouTube and social media these days. It can really dilute what's going on within a school and learning. Jared thinks it's not good to take a technique off, from social media or YouTube, Instagram, wherever you've seen it, and then teach it. That would be like any layman going into a history classroom and going, alright, well, let's watch like 20 minutes of a history documentary, and then we're going to write an essay on it. It doesn't work. You have to understand the full context of why it's happening. When does this work? How do you've to apply it against resisting opponents? Because he has also seen the same technique online. #### Framing The Class For Newcomers He shares his strategy to coach the beginners. You can put them in positions where they can see how techniques work. He says, "I don't think there's much point in putting a white belt into a class and going hey, here's an Armbar. Okay, now we're rolling for an hour, go for it. And then they've got no idea. Things like positional sparring, even some just specific drilling at higher intensities with a little bit more resistance can help them build to that idea of confidence, especially if they've never come from any kind of sparring oriented martial arts. They need to understand how another body feels and where they can find that success. So it's about framing the class." #### Best Way To Encourage Peer-Teaching Sharing why he got into the mindset of peer-teaching, he says, "I saw it in the classroom at first. A student would never ask me first if they didn't understand what I'd said. They turn to their friend and ask them. When I first started jiu-jitsu, I was coming up with any form of technique. And sometimes your instructors are not right there to ask you, and being a white belt and regularly being partnered with a purple belt or a brown belt helped me understand the techniques. I think that's probably the best way to get it kicked off. And as an instructor, when you model that behaviour, you see other people doing it, too. Ah, that was cool. How'd you do that? Ask questions even if it's too low of a belt. Some guys do cool shit you've never seen before. It's engaging for your students in your class. Like they've got something greater to offer? I see my instructors doing that all the time. Hey, this is something you do well. You caught me with that legitimately. How do you get it to work? Show us and then take a step back to give them the centre. It is like allowing these people also to inform the bigger picture of what's going on." ## Resources ### Jahred Dell Quotes > "The one who likes going a little bit beyond the teachings of the coach is gonna progress faster. Even if it's just adding one detail or putting more of the setup into it." > > - Jahred Dell > "The big thing in training Jiu-Jitsu is trusting the process wholeheartedly." > > - Jahred Dell > "If you can enrich the learning, then everyone else can benefit as well." > > - Jahred Dell ### Jahred Dell Links - [Articulate BJJ Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-articulate-bjj-podcast/id1529932345 "https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-articulate-bjj-podcast/id1529932345") - [Articulate BJJ Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/articulatebjj/ "https://www.instagram.com/articulatebjj/") - [Articulate BJJ Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/ArticulateBJJ/ "https://www.facebook.com/ArticulateBJJ/") - [Articulate BJJ YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHRXTbl9peJNlbjdNIyoOSQ "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHRXTbl9peJNlbjdNIyoOSQ") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Jahred Dell - Teaching Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jahred_articulate.jpg "Jahred Dell - Teaching Jiu-Jitsu › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) **Published:** March 8, 2023 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kabir_bath-1024x576.jpg "Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults › Sonny Brown")I talk to Kabir Bath, A Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt under Rafael Lovato Jnr, who runs Kaboom Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He runs an excellent kid's program using only constraints-based learning games where he exclusively uses jiu-jitsu games for teaching kids & adults. We discuss how he structures his class and programs for kids, how he does the same for his adult's jiu-jitsu classes, and how it benefits their information retention and learning process. ## Listen To Kabir Bath ## YouTube ## Topics ### Using Games to Teach Jiu-Jitsu Concepts Games provide a framework to repeatedly work on the core [concepts and outcomes of jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) in a fun way. For example, a game could be chest-to-chest with a partner, and the first person to achieve back control wins the round. This simple game forces kids to grapple from a specific starting point and achieve a clear objective. The game can be repeated over and over, allowing the kids to accumulate quality mat time rapidly focusing on that one scenario. Over time the starting positions and objectives can be varied to work on different skills. The key is isolating a specific concept like passing guard or achieving a dominant position. Games strip away unnecessary techniques and let kids concentrate on the core idea of creating a particular effect on their partner. Multiple games in a class cover different areas like guard play, pins, takedowns, and submissions. ### Emphasizing the Most Important Skills Well-designed games emphasize the most important core [skills that all jiu-jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/) players need regardless of belt level. For example, concepts like establishing dominant grips, breaking posture, and achieving dominant positions. Games also teach kids to read situations and adjust based on their partner's reactions. This develops their jiu jitsu IQ and ability to problem solve. By repeatedly playing games isolating key concepts, kids gain an ingrained understanding beyond memorizing techniques. The games provide quality reps against fully resisting partners in live scenarios. This engages kids and accelerates their skills compared to traditional drilling. ### Creating a Fun Environment Approaching jiu-jitsu through games creates an inherently fun and active environment for kids classes. There's no downtime or boredom between techniques or while waiting to drill. Kids are constantly engaged in playing "jiu-jitsu tag" or achieving specific goals against a peer. This results in greater enthusiasm about training compared to a rigid and repetitive normal class structure. The [games approach also suits different learning styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/). Some kids excel at visualization and drills, while others need to apply concepts in live training. Games allow both types of kids to be challenged and have success through active participation. This increases long-term retention and enjoyment. ### Maximizing Repetitions The main benefit of isolated situational drilling is maximizing repetitions. Rather than constantly resetting and switching techniques every few reps, kids can get 20, 30 or more repetitions from the same position against the same partner. This depth of [training ingrains the proper reactions and skills](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rich-walsh-ufc-mental-training/) needed to succeed in that specific scenario. Adding [progressive resistance](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) is key to getting the most out of situational drilling. This means allowing increasing levels of intensity and aliveness from the [training partner](https://www.sonnybrown.net/guide-on-bjj-training-partner-ettiquite-to-help-you-learn/) over multiple rounds. Progressive resistance prevents the drills from becoming robotic by providing realistic challenges to work against. ### Focusing on Shapes When teaching submissions, the focus is first on achieving proper body positioning and grips. For example, for an armbar, ensure the legs are locked around the arm and the hips are twisted. Without the finishing mechanics, kids can safely work on establishing proper arm bar grips and body alignment. Once the submission shape is drilled, the next stage is maintaining control. Kids work on keeping the submission locked in place for a specific time period like 10 seconds against resistance. This teaches them to stabilize and nullify escape attempts. Only after these phases are [learned are submissions actually finished with control](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wim-deputter-mirroring-principle-chaos-learning/) and safety. ## Kabir Bath Resources #### Quotes > Because if you get hyper fixated on their ability to do this technique right away in the exact way that you want, which we sort of know there's no real one exact way. Otherwise why does BJJ fanatics get to sell 300 instructionals on half guard passing? > > - Kabir Bath #### Links - [Kabir Bath Instagram](https://kaboombjj.com/) - [Kaboom BJJ](https://kaboombjj.com/ "Kaboom BJJ") - [Greg Souders Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/ "Greg Souders On Teaching Jiu-Jitsu Without Teaching Techniques") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Learning Musical Improvisation to Improve Your Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/) **Published:** April 24, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Music Improvisation & Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/music_improvisation_martial_arts-1024x576.jpg "Music Improvisation & Martial Arts › Sonny Brown")Master jazz musician [Clark Terry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Terry) had a unique approach to musical improvisation, specifically jazz improvisation and many other topics. His style of learning musical improvisation is one we can explicitly apply to our martial arts training and practices. It involves three stages, the first being **imitation**, the second being **assimilation** and the third being **innovation**. This concept of learning musical improvisation also applies to our martial arts training, from a specific technique to overall skill development, or it can apply to our entire journey in martial arts as we move from apprentice to master. ## **Stage 1: Imitation** ![Imitation Stage Of Musical Improvisation For Learning Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jazz2.jpg "jazz2 › Sonny Brown") A beginner will start playing his musical instruments in the Imitation stage; this is where they play songs and chord progressions of some of their favourite jazz musicians to emulate the sound of the style. They may find themselves drawn to specific musicians due to their personality, tastes, environmental influences, or any other reason of personal preference. But once they start to imitate the players they enjoy listening to, they will begin to develop some fundamental understanding of what makes their style unique and the concept behind the jazz musician's playing style. It's very similar to martial arts when people look to competitive athletes to see their style to win their matches and emulate the same techniques they use in competitions or training. A difference may be that martial artists can select techniques due to their competitive benefit. The parallel jazz may only be due to an economic reason of what's popular for musicians and them booked to play gigs. But the concept is the same: a new student will eventually kick someone they enjoy and model part of their practice around the things that make them unique. While this won't give the student any special characteristics, it's the first step along this pathway to developing their unique style. ## ## Stage 2: **Assimilation** ![Assimilation Stage Of Musical Improvisation For Learning Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jazz3-1024x1024.jpg "jazz3 › Sonny Brown") The assimilation stage occurs After the imitation stage. The student begins to merge the jazz musician's style that they have been imitating into their style. Examples of this could include incorporating short musical phrases into their songs or solos that were perhaps changed only slightly but still retain the mark of the musician that they aren't imitating. Suppose the imitation stage has been a long one for the musician. In that case, part of this will be due to natural habits as they would have practised those parts that they are now assimilating countless times. To the point where they can play particular songs or solos intuitively, and then when they look to produce their own songs and solos, the remnants of that style with still be present no matter their intention. Part of the assimilation stage can be a conscious practice of what they have learnt from the musician they imitate. Still, deliberately tweaking them slightly to see where it leads them, like playing in a different tempo, inserting phrases in other places of a song, or even playing songs on various instruments. The parallel in martial arts is where after emulating the techniques and moves of the competitors you are looking up to, you can find different setups to enter into the techniques, perhaps even other finishing mechanics. Just as a musician may add specific musical phrases into that solos, you could even find yourself adding certain moves into a chain of techniques different from how the person you are emulating has used them usually. The process seeks to merge The Imitation phase of simply copying another person's work into a style that can begin to resemble one of a unique personal expression. ## **Stage 3: Innovation** ![Innovation Stage Of Musical Improvisation For Learning Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jazz4.jpg "jazz4 › Sonny Brown") Once that resemblance of unique personal expression in the musician has begun to emerge, they can ultimately look to build on that and innovate their style. As this is the ultimate goal of nearly all up forms, it's pretty standard for the beginner to want to skip immediately to this stage as it seems like the most fun and rewarding part of the process, but as the old saying goes, you must first learn the rules, so you know when to break them. Through imitation and assimilation, a musician will have practised for countless hours with innumerable repetitions of their favourite songs, melodies and solos and how they can put their unique touch on them. That time will have given them a deep foundational understanding of the [principles and concepts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models/) that make those harmonic devices work. It's the same as a martial artist who has undergone the process as they will have repeatedly drilled and sparred with techniques, systems, sequences and strategies of other competitors. They will have discovered whatever techniques or style they have naturally been drawn to or works for their body type and begin to blend all those influences into a total body of work unique to their personality. ## **Imitation, Assimilation and Innovation** Clark Terry was a masterful jazz musician who played with countless great of the era, and he left us with this excellent piece of advice for learning how to improvise music. No matter your skill level, you can apply the advice immediately to your understanding of martial arts training. The three simple stages of imitation, assimilation and innovation will give you a handy framework to process your development into a style that will fully express yourself. While other [models of skill acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/three-stage-model-skill-acquisition-martial-art/ "The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition For Martial Arts") also exist, you may find the direct connection most helpful in getting you to learn the process at a conceptual level. Keep it in mind next time you roll! ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning, Martial Arts --- ### [Wim Deputter On The Mirroring Principle and Controlled Chaos for Learning Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wim-deputter-mirroring-principle-chaos-learning/) **Published:** May 8, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Wim Deputter](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/wim_deputter-1024x576.jpg "Wim Deputter › Sonny Brown")I talk to Wim Deputter who is Belgium based Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. We discuss how Jiu-Jitsu is a principle that means a Boxer could be doing Jiu-Jitsu, but you could be a BJJ player and not be doing Jiu-Jitsu. How Wims "Mirroring Principle" is an algorithm and fundamental movement rule that guides BJJ, MMA, Striking and self-defence situations. How constraints placed on any art will determine what that art can become and how constraining beginners to focus on control and then to allow controlled chaos can be the best way for them to develop. Wim is a lifelong martial artist also fighting MMA where he amassed a very respectable record of 18 and 4. He has done multiple seminars for the [BJJ Globetrotters](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bjj-globetrotters-tribalism-clubhouse-christian-graugart/ "Christian Graugart on BJJ Globetrotters, Busting up Tribalism, Belt Bureaucracy & Building a Clubhouse") organisation and has four instructionals out with BJJ Fanatics that cover his [Mirroring Principle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQ92RBXIc4 "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQ92RBXIc4"). ### Listen #### Youtube ### Timestamps \[00:00\] - Introduction to Episode 007 \[02:03\] - Wim’s Background \[05:47\] - Wim Tells About His First MMA Fight \[07:18\] - Why He Was Doing Boxing and Jiu-Jitsu at the Same Time \[10:00\] - The Ideal Score for a Jiu-Jitsu Match \[11:12\] - What Ideal Jiu-Jitsu Should Be \[14:02\] - The Short Competitive Career in Jiu-Jitsu \[15:54\] - How to Make Efficient Use of Energy \[18:50\] - Tip for Calm Breathing \[20:15\] - Taking a Day off While Training Jiu-Jitsu \[22:19\] - Your Outcome Will Depend on the Constraints You Put \[23:09\] - The Idea of Jiu-Jitsu Without Time Limit \[25:18\] - Wim’s Mirroring Principle \[30:25\] - The Importance of Correct Posture \[34:10\] - How to Make Your Grip Stronger? \[37:13\] - Applying the Mirroring Principle to Self Defence \[39:53\] - Difference Between Following and Mirroring \[40:05\] - Perceives Pressure and Actual Pressure \[45:10\] - How to Apply Gentle, Constant Pressure? \[47:19\] - Wim’s Coaching Methodology \[50:40\] - How to Be Comfortable When You’re on a Mount? \[52:05\] - How to Make Coaching Safe for Kids? \[55:05\] - A Good and a Subjective Interpretation of Jiu-Jitsu \[57:29\] - Wim Defines Offence and Defence \[1:00:34\] - Why Does Wim Focus On Teaching Defence to the Beginners First? ### Synopsis #### **The Ideal Score In A Match** The ideal score in a match is 90. For taking the person down as his guard, mount him, choke him. It is 60 when you take him down as his guard, and you roll away. #### **Ideal Jiu-Jitsu** He says people often say if you want to see the real jiu-jitsu, you've to go to the gym. It's never ideal [jiu-jitsu in training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) and competition. In training and competition, it's always ideal Jiu-Jitsu in terms of rules. If you're three points behind and there's one minute to finish the game, then you've to do whatever is necessary to still win the game. So you cannot do the ideal thing. #### **Making Efficient Use Of Energy** On asking if we can take a strategic rest round to make the most efficient use of energy, Wim answers, "No, we shouldn't do that." If you do weightlifting, then how many times do you've to do a weightlifting program to feel like one rep max. So once in the beginning, you'll always do rep max. And then, in the end, everyone is allowed to test what's your capability. But you're never going to train with your one-rep max because you're going to get injured and tired. The same thing happens with training. So, the efficient use of jujitsu within those rounds within that hour, within the week of training, will mean that you don't have to take a day off because you're constantly training in the most efficient way possible. #### **Tip For Calm Breathing** Make sure your movement follows your breathing, not that your breathing follows your movement. If you are breathing rapidly, even without moving, you will get tired and anxious. But if you say, no matter how hard my opponent goes, I'm always going to breathe calmly. You'll not get tired by doing that. So if you decide to breathe calmly, it means that your partner will be able to move faster than you, but it will be at the cost of his stamina. It will be like I'd instead be mounted with all of my energy left than breathing rapidly and guessing. You cannot make a proper decision when you guess. #### **The difference between self-defence and an average punch in MMA** To explain the difference, he says, "If I'm mounted in MMA or a grappling match without strikes, the main difference is time with punches. We have a limited amount of time to get out before we get past. You have to do the correct thing right away. Whereas in Jiu-Jitsu, where there are no punches, the only pressure can be the points. But even with the punch pressure, the risk is the same. You've to get out of there as fast as possible." #### **Taking a day off** Our lives as humans everybody thinks like, Monday to Friday we work. Then on Saturday and Sunday, we take a day off. He says, "tell me one animal in nature who works five days a week and takes two days off. Nobody does that. Even if you take an example of people who live in Tribes, I don't think they ever take a day off. They might do different work in different seasons. It's always a little bit of work every day, but never to the point of exhaustion. As humans, we're not the strongest or the fastest organism on the earth. But we are the animals who can run the furthest of all the animals. We have the best endurance of all the animals. So, this should be the way we should train." #### **The mirroring principle** He describes it as an algorithm that you can use. It tells you where to move and when in relation to your opponent's movement and posture. For example, if your opponent has a straight spine and the head is upwards, you can sweep him upwards. We can always move people in the direction of their spine. #### **Applying the mirroring principle to self-defence** When it comes to self-defense, you've to try to put some psychological pressure like insulting someone, going close to someone without touching them, and then seeing how the person reacts. So, there has to be an initial catalyst of pressure onto the opponent in some form that will force them into making the first reaction to that pressure. And then, if you're paying attention, you can begin to mirror that. And you will because they reacted to the pressure first. As long as you keep mirroring them, you'll always have the advantage over them. #### **Offence, Defence, and Survival** The offence is going from a neutral position and gradually improving your position until the match is over. At the same time, defence is going from an inferior position and progressively enhancing your position. Survival is keeping the status quo. ### References #### Quotes \[23:45\] - As humans, we're not the strongest or the fastest organism on the earth. But we are the animals who can run the furthest of all the animals. We have the best endurance of all the animals. \[27:10\] - Yoga should be the basis of all sports. \[31:39\] - Posture is like building a house. We can make the most beautiful, elaborate, and complicated house. If we use bad material or bad foundations, the first wind will blow your house away. It doesn't matter how beautiful your house is, it will get destroyed. The same goes for your posture. A good posture will make sure your body is safe and make it as efficient as possible. \[37:35\] - The best distance in a self defence fight is the biggest distance possible. \[40:08\] - In the mirroring principle, the one who moves first loses. \[51:30\] - Defence only makes sense against a good attack \[56:32\] - Wrestling is the most ideal art of self-defence. \[1:02:09\] - If you think of self-defense, guard passing is the least helpful thing you should learn about. #### Links - [Wim Deputter Website](https://www.wimdeputter.com/ "https://www.wimdeputter.com/") - [Wim Deputter YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHTtfzPdWgjoKnBoFYC9esA "https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHTtfzPdWgjoKnBoFYC9esA") - [Wim Deputter Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/wimdeputterBJJ/ "https://www.instagram.com/wimdeputterBJJ/") - [Wim Deputter Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/wimdeputterbjj/ "https://www.facebook.com/wimdeputterbjj/") - [The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferris](https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp/0307465357 "https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp/0307465357") - [The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin](https://www.amazon.in/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performance/dp/0743277465 "https://www.amazon.in/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performance/dp/0743277465") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![Wim Deputter](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/wim_tsbb_promo.jpg "Wim Deputter › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Jeremy Skinner On Quality Jiu-Jitsu Instruction & BJJ Competition Teams](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/) **Published:** August 8, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jeremy Skinner - BJJ Instruction & ADCC Teams](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jeremy_paul_skinner-1024x576.jpg "jeremy_paul_skinner › Sonny Brown")I talk to Jeremy Skinner, a Jiu-Jitsu black belt who recently won the ADCC Oceana trials, which will see him compete at the 2022 ADCC World championships. While earning his black belt under [Lachlan Giles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/ "Lachlan Giles On The Reverse Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu & BJJ Skill Acquisition"), he recently began competing and training under [Luke Martin](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-new-wave-no-gi-jiu-jitsu/ "Luke Martin On New Wave Coaching Of No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu Grapplers") and Sydney West Martial Arts. We discuss how he was able to prepare for competition while managing his coaching responsibilities and how he can determine quality in jiu-jitsu instruction and teaching. We also discuss his thoughts on current competition formats and how he feels a shift to a more team-based competitive format will lead to the technical evolution of the sport. ## Listen To Jeremy Skinner ### YouTube ## Topics ### ADCC Competition Preparation As Jeremy Skinner ready himself for ADCC 2022 (the Abu Dhabi Combat Club Submission Wrestling World Championships), he says that he must be prepared for every match to be a tough fight as there is no warm-up match like in trials. Since there are a lot of tough competitors in the division and they have faced similar challenges to get to that point, he will be ready for a tough fight from the first round. Jeremy has been studying them carefully and preparing for every possible situation. He is also working on fixing any weaknesses he had in his game before the ADCC tournament, including taking care of any injuries and ensuring that his weight is correct. ### Choosing A Quality BJJ Instructor Jeremy looks for two things when finding a Jiu-Jitsu competitor to learn from. The first is finding someone who is successful. You can tell if they are successful by looking at how many people they have helped and how well they are doing. The second thing he looks for is someone who has had repeat success. This means that other people have been able to do what this person has done and be successful too. One of the reasons why he focused on studying the Danaher death squad is that you had a group of people using similar techniques. So if you study what they did and use those same techniques, you can be successful too. They were all made up of different body types and weights but were successful because of their shared techniques. Whereas some people can be successful at something, and you might think it would work for you too, but it might not. That is because what works for some people might not work for you for various reasons. You might also have difficulty doing something that someone else taught you if they are the only person who has been successful with it. ### Development Of Jiu-Jitsu Teams Jeremy thinks we're seeing now in the sport Jiu-Jitsu scene is that teams are becoming more important than individuals. So it might be a little bit harder now for hobbyists to make it to a professional level. He thinks this is because we are seeing more professional teams, and how these teams grow is really making a difference. When you look at, say, what was the Danaher Death Squad, and one of the students made a mistake in competition, they were able to identify that area and then upgrade the whole team. He thinks that is where we are starting to see some differences between professional [athletes and people who just do sports](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/) as a hobby. But in terms of improving your training as much as possible, he thinks you can still use many of the same methods in your own training, even if you are not a professional athlete. ### Quantum Entanglement Instructional In his instructional, Quantum Entanglement, he wanted to integrate different types of [leglocks and leg entanglements](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/). Typically, when people learn these different techniques, they are taught as individual techniques that don't interact with each other. He wanted to show how these techniques can work together in a systemized way. Although this has been done before, he wanted to give specific examples showing how different [leg entanglements](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/) work together. ## Jermy Skinner Resources ### Jeremy Skinner Quotes > I think because teaching methods are improving, then it's easier to deliberately get someone to improve at the sport versus before, I think the teaching methods weren't great, wasn't very developed, and so a lot of the times people were just getting very good at the sport just on their own merit. > > - Jeremy Skinner > I think that's where we've seen John Danaher really change the sport is the language surrounding technique now has improved dramatically, so it becomes much easier for someone to explain to someone else exactly what they're doing in a technique. And we're doing a much better job overall. We're using more precise language. > > - Jeremy Skinner ### Jeremy Skinner Links - [Jeremy Skinner Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/jeremypaulskinner/ "Jeremy Skinner Instagram") - [Jeremy Skinner YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/jeremypskinner "Jeremy Skinner YouTube") - [Quantum Entanglement Instructional](https://techniqly.com/shop/quantum-entanglement/ "Quantum Entanglement Instructional") - [Fundamental Leg Entanglements, Escapes, and Heel Hooks Instructional](https://techniqly.com/shop/fundamental-leg-entanglements-escapes-and-heel-hooks/ "Fundamental Leg Entanglements, Escapes, and Heel Hooks Instructional
") - [Luke Martin Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/ "Luke Martin On Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System") - [Lachlan Giles Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/ "Lachlan Giles Interview On Optimising Lesson Structure & Self-Directed Learning") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Mittmaster Matt Chapman On TLC For Training & MMA Padwork](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/) **Published:** August 30, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Mittmaster Matt Chapman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/mittmaster_matt_chapman-1024x576.jpg "Mittmaster Matt Chapman › Sonny Brown")I talk to Mittmaster Matt Chapman, a martial artist for 35 years who has a wealth of experience instructing Jeet Kune Do, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA. He provides valuable insights on how nurturing and caring for new martial arts students helps them stick with and become proficient at their desired art. We also discuss how that TLC can transfer over to the development of fighters and how he developed the Mittmaster Pad Training System. He details how he has applied his martial arts philosophy to that padwork system and how training with [Erik Paulson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-paulson-interview-shooto-spirit/ "Erik Paulson Interview On Free Thinking, Submissions, Shooto & Spirit") has influenced his style. ## Listen To Mittmaster Matt ### YouTube ## Topics ### Welcoming & Greeting Beginners Matt explains that often when you walk into a martial arts school, the first thing that happens is that nobody talks to you; he's seen it himself when he has walked into schools people are training, and nobody has come over to talk to him. Then fifteen minutes later, the instructor comes over and talks to him, usually after they have finished beating someone up, when they're sweaty and a mess. Entering a new environment, like a gym, can be really scary. You should greet and help them get started when people first walk in. If you don't, they might not come back. So his advice is that you first should expect your beginners to turn up during class and then greet them as quickly as possible. It's already an intimidating environment for people who are not used to it, so it helps to be as welcoming as possible. ### The Two Fears of Beginners There are two things that [beginners are afraid of when they start martial](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lucid-dreaming-for-martial-artists/) arts: getting hurt and looking stupid. If instructors give them too much to learn at once, beginners feel overwhelmed and think that they can't do it. They become self-conscious and stop coming to class. An ideal class for beginners would be relaxed and friendly, with less technical detail being taught so that students can work through the basics at their own pace. It's important not to overwhelm beginners with too much information right away. ### Student Safety & Minimising Injuries Matt explained how It's important for instructors to avoid having their students get injured as much as possible. He states that if you have a beginner, they're usually gone and won't return if they get injured in the first few months. Getting them back is hard if they've just started training and haven't developed the habit or passion for it yet. So you want to minimize the chances of injury by not doing specific exercises, like plyometric exercises, for beginners. Matt doesn't do certain deep stretches with beginners and won't let people hold pads and kick it full force because they have no idea what amount of force will come through the Thai pads into their partner's elbows. You have a responsibility to your students. If you know a student is not ready for holding pads, then you shouldn't have them holding pads, or at least you should be monitoring it closely. ### Coaching Fighters Vs Hobbyists Matt explains that out of 100 students, 5 of them really want to be fighters and are determined to do what it takes. The other 95 students might not have the same passion or determination as the five fighters, but they can still be [taught the skills and the art](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/). The fighters will learn anyway, so it doesn't matter if we help the other 95 or not. I believe that helping the other 95 is more important because they need it more. He states that coaching fighters can be great fun, but after a while, coaches can get tired of dealing with them and their demands. Fighters are physically strong, but they can be quite sensitive, and they take things to heart. Coaches have to babysit their fighters, and after a while, some coaches get tired of it and want to teach regular people who appreciate what is being done for them. ## Mittmaster Matt Resources ### Mittmaster Matt Quotes > It's important not to overwhelm beginners with too much information right away. > > - Mittmaster Matt Chapman ### Mittmaster Matt Links - Mittmaster Courses - [Mittmaster Matt Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/mittmastermatt/?hl=en "Mittmaster Matt Instagram") - [Mitt Master Matt YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/mittmaster "Mitt Master Matt YouTube") - [Interview With Erik Paulson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/erik-paulson-interview-shooto-spirit/ "Erik Paulson Interview On Free Thinking, Submissions, Shooto & Spirit") - [Rosky Pads](http://evolvedmma.com/gear/rosky-mma-mitts-review-by-rosky-combat-sports/) If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/)**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Luke Martin On ADCC Training At New Wave Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) **Published:** September 14, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Luke Martin - Sydney West Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_adcc-1024x576.jpg) I talk to Luke Martin, a Jiu-Jitsu coach currently preparing his athletes for the ADCC world championships out of the New Wave Jiu-Jitsu camp in Texas with John Danaher, Gordon Ryan, Gary Tonon, Nicholas Meregali and the rest of the New Wave ADCC competitors. In a special emergency broadcast edition of the Sonny Brown Breakdown podcast, he gives us a rare insight into what that experience is like and how John Danaher prepares his athletes for the biggest competition in grappling. We also discuss how Luke transfers that coaching onto his athletes and gets into other facets of the competition preparation's mental and physical side. ## Listen To Luke Martin ### Apple [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple-300x73.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/adcc-preparation-at-new-wave-jiu-jitsu-with-luke-martin/id1476963733?i=1000579443753) ### Google [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zb25ueWJyb3duLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/ZjA2NGYyZWItYzFjZS00ZDJhLTk5OGEtZTJmZWE1MjhmNzk5?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjI9uiloJT6AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ) ### Spotify [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown")](https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Svy1UVA5Ob9KYgCGZg2r1) ### YouTube ## Topics ### Review Of The ADCC Oceana Trials My overall assessment of the ADCC Trials is that I am satisfied but not happy. Now some gyms are happy if someone wins a gold medal in a grappling industries competition and that is fine. They just have a different measure of success. For me, it is different. I want to create the best [no-gi grappler](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-brennan-next-generation-mma-nogi-jiujitsu/) in Australia. To do this, I need my grapplers to compete in the ADCC Trials. ADCC was like the benchmark, and I think it probably still is for most people to tell you the truth. So, as you know, Trials was our potential coming out party or was where we would look like a bunch of idiots making these statements and not being able to follow through. ### On The Best No-Gi Grappling Gym There is no one definitive answer to this question. People's opinions will vary depending on who they know and what gym they train at. However, I think it is fair to say that our academy is doing well, and we are always looking for ways to improve. We are focused on becoming the best in the world, and we will not be satisfied until we achieve this goal. Some people think that doing Jiu Jitsu once or twice a week is enough. But for the professionals, they are treating it like a career. This means they must work hard on their techniques behind the scenes. I have to look at things and figure out how we can make the most of their time so they can become as good as possible as quickly as possible. ### On ADCC Specific Preparation But the focus is very much ADCC style. Rather than normally don't teach to just bring the entire team up with all levels, all parts of the game, as far as submissions and positions and whatever it is, it seems to be very heavily biased towards how you win an ADCC match. If you think about how most ADCC matches one, it's not necessarily by showing the team 25 different submissions, it's probably by what's the most likely way you're going to be scored on? You sat down on your ass; how can you scramble not to be scored on from there? So it's like a lot of how not to be beaten that seems to be a big focus. ## Luke Martin Resources ### Luke Martin Links - [Sydney West Martial Arts](http://www.swma.com.au/ "http://www.swma.com.au/") - [Luke Martins Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/aussieleglockluke/ "Luke Martins Instagram
") - [SWMA Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/ "https://www.instagram.com/sydneywestmartialarts/") - [Luke Martin On Distance Learning From John Danaher](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-distance-learning-danaher-system/ "Luke Martin on Distance Learning the John Danaher Jiu-Jitsu System") - [Luke Martin On New Wave Jiu-Jitsu Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-new-wave-no-gi-jiu-jitsu/ "Luke Martin On New Wave Coaching Of No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu Grapplers") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths for MMA & BJJ Athletes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/cryotherapy-vs-ice-baths-for-mma-bjj-athletes/) **Published:** May 29, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths for MMA & BJJ Athletes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/cryotherapy_vs_icebaths-1024x574.jpg "Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths for MMA & BJJ Athletes › Sonny Brown")The question of **Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths** has a surprising answer for combat sports athletes. Competitors training MMA & Jiu-Jitsu will often experience muscle soreness after heavy training sessions and are always looking for **efficient recovery options** and if something promises to give them an advantage over an opponent they are often willing to try it out especially if it also happens to be spruiked by Joe Rogan on his [podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast"). Recently, many athletes can be seen on social media using **whole body cryotherapy** where they stand in rooms or containers that are chilled to sub-freezing temperatures. Still, the question remains as to how much better are the expensive cryotherapy treatments than the **cold water immersion** ice baths that athletes have long used before? Table Of Contents 1. [Whole Body Cryotherapy](#whole-body-cryotherapy) 2. [Cold Water Immersion](#cold-water-immersion) 3. [Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths](#cryotherapy-vs-ice-baths) 4. [Summary](#summary) ## Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths: The Evidence ### Whole Body Cryotherapy Whole Body Cryotherapy (WBC) is an increasingly popular recovery strategy. WBC involves spending 1.5-3 minutes inside a chamber that has had the air-cooled down anywhere as low as -150 degrees whereas Ice baths or Cold-Water Immersion (CWI) involves immersing the entire body in cooled water for up to 10 minutes at a temperature of 10 degrees. CWI is a far more common means of recovery and a systematic review of the literature found that a large body of evidence did support the use of CWI in alleviating muscles soreness post-exercise (Leeder, Gissane, van Someren, Gregson & Howatson, 2011). Additionally, one study looked specifically at MMA athletes and found that CWI following intense training sessions worked successfully to reduce muscle soreness in the athlete (Lindsay et al., 2017). ### Cold Water Immersion While the evidence does support the use of CWI for helping recovery and reducing muscle soreness in the athlete, it may come as a surprise that the evidence is not that clear when it comes to WBC. A study that looked at the effectiveness of CWI when compared to WBC in athletes concluded that clinical trials for WBC were lacking and that most of the evidence supporting it was anecdotal (Holmes & Willoughby, 2016). Additionally, a meta-analysis of studies testing WBC for athlete recovery found that current evidence was unable to support the claim that WBC worked in reducing muscle soreness or subjective recovery and that no evidence existed at the time that trialled the recovery method on women or elite athletes (Costello et al., 2016). On top of this lack of evidence to support the use of WBC in athlete recovery, another study found that CWI performed better than WBC for recovery after exercise with the reduced muscle soreness and perceived recovery levels gained from CWI potentially being due to the time spent in each recovery option with WBC being limited to only 3 minutes while CWI can be up to 10-15 minutes (Abaïdia et al., 2017). ### Cryotherapy vs Ice Baths Part of the current popularity in WBC may be due to a bias that “colder is better” when it comes to recovery and the extremely low temperatures that WBC reaches can be seen as unbeatable by other recovery methods. But tests to find the ideal temperature for CWI have found the belief that “colder is better” not to be the case. Studies show that water temperatures of 5 degrees perform worse on recovery tests than water with higher temperatures with the best protocol for CWI found to be with water temperature between 11-15 degrees and for a time of 11--15 minutes (Machado et al., 2015). ### Summary In summary, although WBC is currently a popular solution to recovery at the moment, not enough evidence exists on this recovery method and the high additional costs associated with it means it cannot be recommended as a suitable addition to the training routine. Alternatively, CWI offers a relatively cheap and easy way to accelerate recovery and reduce muscle soreness that is also evidence-based. #### **References** > \- Abaïdia, A., Lamblin, J., Delecroix, B., Leduc, C., McCall, A., & Nédélec, M. et al. (2017). [Recovery From Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage: Cold-Water Immersion Versus Whole-Body Cryotherapy.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27396361/) International Journal Of Sports Physiology And Performance, 12(3), 402-409. doi: 10.1123/ijspp.2016-0186 > > \- Costello, J., Baker, P., Minett, G., Bieuzen, F., Stewart, I., & Bleakley, C. (2016). [Cochrane review: whole-body cryotherapy (extreme cold air exposure) for preventing and treating muscle soreness after exercise in adults.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26383887/) Journal Of Evidence-Based Medicine, 9(1), 43-44. doi: 10.1111/jebm.12187 > > \- Holmes, M., & Willoughby, D. (2016). The Effectiveness of Whole Body Cryotherapy Compared to Cold Water Immersion: Implications for Sport and Exercise Recovery. International Journal Of Kinesiology And Sports Science, 4(4). doi: 10.7575/aiac.ijkss.v.4n.4p.32 > > \- Leeder, J., Gissane, C., van Someren, K., Gregson, W., & Howatson, G. (2011).[ Cold water immersion and recovery from strenuous exercise: a meta-analysis. ](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/46/4/233 "https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/46/4/233")British Journal Of Sports Medicine, 46(4), 233-240. doi: 10.1136/bjsports-2011-090061 > > \- Lindsay, A., Carr, S., Cross, S., Petersen, C., Lewis, J., & Gieseg, S. (2017). [The physiological response to cold-water immersion following a mixed martial arts training session.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28177718/ "https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28177718/") Applied Physiology, Nutrition, And Metabolism, 42(5), 529-536. doi: 10.1139/apnm-2016-0582 > > \- Machado, A., Ferreira, P., Micheletti, J., de Almeida, A., Lemes, Í., & Vanderlei, F. et al. (2015)[. Can Water Temperature and Immersion Time Influence the Effect of Cold Water Immersion on Muscle Soreness? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26581833/ "https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26581833/"). Sports Medicine, 46(4), 503-514. doi: 10.1007/s40279-015-0431-7 ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Chris Paines On BJJ Training Progress, Evolution & Control Points](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) **Published:** October 23, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Chris Paines BJJ Progress](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/chris_paines_header-1024x576.jpg "chris_paines_header › Sonny Brown")I talk to Chris Paines, a BJJ Black Belt under [Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-jiu-jitsu-hierarchy/ "Priit Mihkelson On Belts, Ranking, Titles & Hierarchy In Jiu-Jitsu"), who recently released an instructional titled "How to Defend Against Everyone". We discuss his thoughts on teaching and learning Jiu-Jitsu through the use of heuristics focusing on control points and how that can emphasise defensive principles as well as optimising offence. We also discuss the importance of providing context when communicating the techniques of Jiu-Jitsu to learners and how understanding your body dexterity can improve your grappling game. ## Listen TO Chris Paines ### YouTube ## Topics ### The Role Of A BJJ Coach "I remember drilling arm bars. It was how many arm bars could you do in a minute? They were awful. There were gaps everywhere, no control, and the arm bar quickly slammed on. And then you'd never hit it because it was a very specific set of circumstances where one person's arms may be straight up in the bottom of the mount. So I look at the people who are under me, and I think, right, well, if I teach you how I was taught, it would take you as long possibly to get to where I am, which seems inefficient. I want you to get there in five or six years. That's my goal. Which means I can't teach you how I was taught. There has to be an intelligent way, and that's my job as a coach. I read a book about coaching by Martin Rooney. I wasn't sure if what he said was true, so I had to look it up to make sure I didn't sound like a crazy person. I found out that the word "coach" comes from a village in Hungary called Coach. This village specialized in making wagons that could be pulled behind horses to carry people to different places. So, essentially, a coach is like a bus. That's how the word morphed into what we now use to describe sports teachers or professors." ### Chris Paines Traffic Light Control System "There are two types of controls: major and minor. Major controls are when I am in your armpits (side control, mount, back control). I try to avoid separating out mount, side control, and north-south because they are essentially the same. I look at it more like a rainbow than just three individual colours. I want to control your armpits, so I put something in your armpits (mount). In side control, it's a leg and an arm. And the north-south, it's two arms. The red arm or green would be the space between the bottom of your ribs and your armpits. The red sons are in that space. You fucked up if you're in that space. It's going to suck. Like you get them out. All the most terrible things that we do in Jiu-Jitsu are typically created from us being in those places. Like a high side control with a good cross face or high mount where the arms have been pulled open. We never want to be there. And the first thing we ever do is get them out of that red space shrimp or try and frame our elbows down T-rex arms. And then the next part is amber, where the space between your elbow and ribs is always bigger than a human wrist. So people will be able to swim their arm back into that space and reopen their armpits, and that was revolutionary." ### Giving Feedback During Sparring "Weird things happen when people talk to each other. We should be able to say what we want. If the person we are talking to has a lot of resistance, we should ask them to lower it. If the person does not have enough resistance, we should ask them to put it up. It is like sparring with someone where one person always wins. But sometimes, we need good hard resistance so that we can work on our speed and sensitivity. Or if we don't feel confident, we might ask for lower resistance. So it's almost like the other person is being compliant, but they shouldn't have to be because they are boring otherwise." ## Chris Paines Resources #### Quotes > I think we should look at plenty of other sports that have a much better coaching record than we do. Like to try and help my guys have competition nerves, I thought, well, there isn't much in the Ju-Jitsu sphere explaining competition nerves. So I went further afield, and I got some books on NFL coaches and how they get their athletes to deal with nerves because I thought that is, again, a sport with a lot of money and a really deep understanding of what they're doing. > > - Chris Paines #### Links - [Previous Chris Paines Interview On Growth In Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-interview-universal-theory-guard/ "Chris Paines On Unconventional Growth in Grappling & A Universal Theory of Guard") - [Chris Paines Website](https://chrispainesbjj.com/ "Chris Paines Website") - [Chris Paines Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/chrisvillainbjj/ "Chris Paines Instagram") - [How To Defend Against Everyone By Chris Paines](https://bjjfanatics.com/products/how-to-defend-against-everyone-by-chris-paines "How To Defend Against Everyone By Chris Paines") - [Martin Rooney Coaching Books](https://www.coachinggreatness.com/ "Martin Rooney Coaching Books") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Lachlan Giles On The Reverse Classroom For Jiu-Jitsu & BJJ Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/) **Published:** April 19, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Lachlan Giles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lachlan_giles_2_header-1024x576.jpg "Lachlan Giles › Sonny Brown")I talk to Lachlan Giles about his instructional style. He experimented with using the [reverse classroom](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bruce-hoyer-flipped-classroom-model-jiu-jitsu/ "Bruce Hoyer on the Flipped Classroom Teaching Model For Jiu-Jitsu") model to teach jiu-jitsu which involves students watching videos before attending class and then directing portions of their training over what they want to learn. We discuss this experiment, his thoughts and readings on skill acquisition in general for grapplers, and the launch of his new online learning platform [Submeta](https://submeta.io/ "Submeta"). ## Listen To Lachlan Giles ### Apple ![The Sonny Brown Breakdown - Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown") ### Google ![The Sonny Brown Breakdown - Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown") ### Spotify ![The Sonny Brown Breakdown - Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown") ### Youtube ## Topics ### The Dilemma Lachlan has as a Coach As a coach, one of the hardest things is trying to figure out how to structure the classes for the group. And it's hard because no matter what you teach, some people might not use it. People have different ways of passing the guard, different ways of playing, and different ways of finishing the whole scope of Jiu-jitsu. There's a lot of individual ability to have their own individual style, and when you're running a class, you can't cater to that. You can show all the different ways of passing the guard, but that takes a long time to get that through in a cleaner. You have to spend time on a theme as well if you want people to get it like you want to teach all the different types of guard, but that's also bad because there might be two or three types of guard that the person actually uses, and you're teaching them. So, most of their time is probably not optimized. It's not the best use of their time. ### What Intrigued Lachlan to USE A Flipped Classroom Model Lachlan started using Flipped Classroom Model to solve the problem of reaching the most people with Jiu-jitsu. And just trying to find the best way to make sure that people get the techniques they're going to use and do not spend as much time inefficiently working on techniques that they perhaps will not use. ### Feedback on People That are Self-learning People learn better if they have a bit of autonomy over what they work on. Like if it's a skill that they've chosen to try to improve, they tend to improve better at that. And it's more enjoyable too. ### Lachlan Giles's Way of Teaching Some gyms like to choose everyone's partners, which can be good. But people usually want to pair with people they know they like training with. So it's, it's a more comfortable training environment. Additionally, telling people what to do isn't the most effective method of teaching. The question has to come from them. It's much more well received if the person says. "I'm having trouble with this. What am I doing wrong? Can you help me here?" That's really valuable. They won't learn it well if they haven't experienced why what they're currently doing is incorrect. They need to be receptive to learn. ### About his Submeta Website Lachlan said when he was planning to build the website, he thought, "Well, how does it feel to be coaching and teaching?" There're instructions through fanatics on the website. There are many styles, and you can mix and match different things together. ### Submeta vs. Instructional Learning Instructional learning is kind of a long format on a particular topic. Apart from the escapes one, they're pretty much all alike. He says, "Probably one of the downsides is sometimes you get a white belt who's watching it and it's gonna be hard for you to sift through what's relevant a few of the time. So, with sub-meta, I've gone by like levels. We've got your classes divided like the course of a first step, then a foundations course, so you're now like basically a white belt course." ### The Uniqueness Submeta is Going to Provide 1. The amount of content— there are over a hundred hours of content 2. There's content for specific levels 3. The courses are like systems—you have systems that link together instead of just individual techniques 4. There's skill acquisition, exercises section, spaced repetition, active recall, etc ## Lachlan Giles Resources ### Lachlan Giles Quotes > "Trying to develop a culture where people ask questions is more important than a culture where I know everything and I just come around and tell you to do this and that. And I don't think that works as well either." > > - Lachlan Giles ### Lachlan Giles Links - [Submeta](https://submeta.io/ "Submeta ") - [Lachlan Giles Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/lachlan_giles/ "Lachlan Giles Instagram") - [Lachlan Giles BJJ Heroes](https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/lachlan-giles "Lachlan Giles BJJ Heroes") - [Reverse Classroom Explanation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom "Reverse Classroom Explanation") - [Lachlan Giles On BJJ Lesson Structure & Self-Directed Learning](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-interview-bjj-lesson-structure/ "Lachlan Giles Interview on Optimising Lesson Structure & Self-Directed Learning") - [The Two Skill Acquisition Approaches: Key Differences by Rob Gray](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCsezh7ijzs "The Two Skill Acquisition Approaches: Key Differences by Rob Gray") - [The Perception & Action Podcast by Rob Gray](https://perceptionaction.com/ "The Perception & Action Podcast by Rob Gray") If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [Ruadhán MacFadden On The History of Folk Wrestling Styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ruadhan-macfadden-history-folk-wrestling/) **Published:** September 20, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Hero with a Thousand Holds With Ruadhán MacFadden](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_thousandholds_featured-1024x512.png "tsbb_thousandholds_featured › Sonny Brown")I talk to Ruadhán MacFadden who runs a project titled The Hero with a Thousand Holds, which looks at the culture and practice of folk wrestling styles worldwide. In particular, the people and places that the styles have emerged from and not just the techniques they used. We discuss some of the mythology and culture behind these styles and what the future holds for them. And we get into some of the particulars of Icelandic Glima and Irish Collar and Elbow Wrestling and Scuffling. Table Of Contents 1. [Listen To Ruadhán MacFadden](#listen-to-ruadhán-macfadden) 2. [YouTube](#youtube) 3. [Timestamps](#timestamps) 4. [Synopsis](#synopsis) 5. [Ruadhán MacFadden Resources](#ruadhán-macfadden-resources) ### Listen To Ruadhán MacFadden ### YouTube ### Timestamps \[00:00\] - Introduction to Episode 027 \[03:12\] - His Martial Arts Background \[07:12\] - How Did the Folkstyle World Map Come Into Being \[09:57\] - The Voyage of Designing a Map of Folk Wrestling Styles \[11:55\] - The Problem With The Folk Wrestling Wikipedia Page \[13:25\] - The Need to Update the Map in Future \[14:38\] - The Nitty-Gritty of Folkstyle Map Making \[17:11\] - Grappling and Judo \[19:51\] - Similarities in Different Forms of Wrestling Styles All Around the World \[22:54\] - The Story Behind Mongolian Grappling Costumes \[26:12\] - Cultural Influences on His Research of Folkstyle Wrestling \[29:49\] - Ideology Behind Pinning the Opponent to the Ground \[31:12\] - Submission Focused Grappling Style Is Mostly Used Now \[34:28\] - Why Pinning Should Be Done Shoulders Down \[36:39\] - Judo Is Committed to the Scientific Study of Submissions to Ground \[39:21\] - Wrestling: Old Tradition vs New Tradition \[41:56\] - Greeks, Romans and Their Take on Wrestling Games \[44:00\] - Glima: A Friendly Form of Grappling \[47:21\] - [Catch Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/ "The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon") \[51:49\] - Irish Collar and Elbow \[57:10\] - Importance of Grip \[1:03:24\] - The Flying Mare Move-In Wrestling \[1:08:10\] - Future of Grappling Styles ### Synopsis #### **Making Of World Map of Wrestling Styles** Ron McFadden has made a world map that lists all the different folkstyle wrestling styles found around different countries. Sharing how the idea to make a map of wrestling style come to him, he says that he loves travelling and knowing about other cultures, languages, and the history of the cultures, etc. His two favourite hobbies are travelling and grappling. So he combined them, and the result was the map of folk wrestling styles around the world and his podcast: The Hero With A Thousand Holds. #### **The Map Is Still Incomplete** He says if someone checks the map, s/he will find probably notice things missing from the map. It is the nature of the map. It has limited space to include things. The map is 100% not supposed to be an absolutely comprehensive overview of every folk wrestling style that has ever been practised. That would just not be visually possible to represent on one map because there are so many wrestling styles worldwide. There are so many little things that you might not even recognize as a style. It was just practised in one little village in the Swiss Alps for two years back in the 19th century. They didn't even have a name for it, and you can't put that on a map. So he started focusing on the bigger styles like The Shai Joe from China, Mongolian wrestling, European styles, etc. And then he started drilling down and trying to find things that he hadn't heard of, especially things that are a little bit more obscure and a little bit even more regional. #### **The problem with the Wikipedia page on Folk wrestling** There's a Wikipedia page just called folk wrestling that nice overview of styles per country, and then sometimes per region of that country. Raudhan says, "I would never recommend to anyone that you use Wikipedia as the be-all and end-all source. Because while I was working my way through that page, I found some styles that were listed there that I couldn't find a single other reference to online. So I decided that I'm going to try and find that elsewhere, throw it into Google, and every single reference leads back to that Wikipedia page, which is a little bit questionable." #### **The nitty-gritty of techniques of different styles** He says, "There are so many different styles out there. But from an actual stylistic point of view, if we want to get down to just the pure, nitty-gritty of the technique, they are all incredibly similar. If you take someone from Mongolia, and you take someone from Bolivia, and put them in a room together and tell them to have a conversation, it's not going to work. But if you take them, you put them in a room together. You tell them to wrestle, and they will be able to figure that out very quickly because this guy who has grown up on the steppes of Mongolia doing his wrestling style versus someone who has grown up in the mountains of Bolivia is doing his wrestling style. It's like a Spanish speaker meeting a Portuguese speaker. You'll be able to say, okay, that word looks a little bit familiar. I think I know what you're saying; let's meet somewhere in the middle." So like that, grappling is universal. #### **Universal Nature Of Grappling and Wrestling Techniques** Grappling is universal all around the world, most likely done since before we were people. You can observe it even amongst great apes like gorillas in a kind of mud combat. They'll be arm dragging each other and colour tying each other. We were doing that around the earliest campfires as well. And in terms of the human body and the laws of physics, there are only a certain number of ways that you can grab someone, and you can manipulate them, either to throw them to the ground or to pin them on the ground or to apply submission hold. There is an inbuilt physiological barrier as to how unique one can be in that regard. So what you see stylistically from Mongolia to Japan, Bolivia to Ireland is essential all the same techniques. So from a stylistic point of view, there's not much variation, which makes it more unusual when you come across a style that does look a little bit unique. #### **Wrestling and its relation to mythology** In mythology and folklore, gods are depicted as very powerful in terms of martial arts or prowess on the battlefield. In Nordic mythology and Indian mythology and all in The Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the oldest mythological tales, there's a wrestling match between Gilgamesh and who is initially his enemy and then becomes his friend Enkidu. So wrestling as a form of the contest is a means of establishing how powerful a character is hugely common. This also trickles into things like the names of techniques, deities, or even animals that you would identify with because animals are another widespread aspect of folktales because animals, like bears, tigers, wolves, etc., have significant influence in naming the techniques. Wherever there is a large predatory animal in the environment that is usually worshipped or feared. The warrior class would often identify with that animal as a totem because it was considered very fierce, very aggressive, very intimidating. For example, in Mexico, among certain indigenous peoples, they identify with the Jaguars. #### **Grappling and pinning** Grappling in a global and historical context almost always revolved around a stand-up contest where you won if you threw the guy to the ground. And then, in some cases, pinned him. The pin is not even as common as you might think. Very often, it just off-balance your opponent, and you make him hit the ground. And sometimes, it is as little as making him touch the ground with any part of his body that is not the soles of his feet. Sumo, for instance, if you hit a snap down on a guy, and he bases out with his hand to stop from faceplant, and you when you have made him touch the ground with his hand, and from our perspective, as big as your people are just as modern, submission oriented grapplers. #### **Why pinning should be done shoulders down** He says, "In the vast majority of wrestling styles around the world where the pin is a factor, it is always shoulders down and back down. My theory is easier to judge in a sporting context; shoulders down are much more ambiguous than chest down. How do you judge chest down if he still has his elbows in under him? Does that count? If he manages to, elevate him slightly in a weird push-up position? Does that count? Do you have to have his hands behind his back? I think there would be much more variables involved in calling what would be a chest-down pin. Whereas two shoulders to the ground, it's pretty straightforward; you can't argue against that. So my theory is that when grappling started becoming more sport defied shoulders down is just so much easier to see." #### **Collar and Elbow Tie Up** There is a position in pro wrestling called the collar and elbow tie-up, basically a single collar tie. It's like a slightly theatrical single collar tie, with the elbows flared out so that the opponents can talk to each other. And can throw the Hulk Hogan punches to the face. But that's the collar and elbow tie-up. And that's what people just, based on the name, assume the collar and elbow looked like if you had a single collar tie and his move each other around. #### **The truth about flying mare** He says, "It's not exclusive to the collar and elbow, it comes from Cornish wrestling. So from Cornwall in the southwestern of England. What a flying mare is is any throw that caused your opponent's feet to go flying up over his head. So it's a fairly high-impact dynamic throw, that was called the flying mirror. Basically, if we call it a hip throw, but it would send someone's feet flying over their head." ### Ruadhán MacFadden Resources #### Quotes > "No piece of work is ever going to be perfect. There are always going to be little tweaks that you could conceivably make in hindsight." > > - Ruadhán MacFadden #### Links - [The Hero With A Thousand Holds Website ](https://thousandholds.net/ "https://thousandholds.net/") - [The Hero With A Thousand Holds Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/thousandholds/ "https://www.instagram.com/thousandholds/") - [The Hero With A Thousand Holds Twitter](https://twitter.com/thousandholds "https://twitter.com/thousandholds") - [The Hero With A Thousand Holds YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/user/IshijimaLogan "https://www.youtube.com/user/IshijimaLogan") - [Ruadhán MacFadden Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/ruadhan.macfadden "https://www.facebook.com/ruadhan.macfadden") - [Map of Folk-Wrestling Styles Around The World](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/9bih0v/map_of_folkwrestling_styles_around_the_world_oc/ "https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/9bih0v/map_of_folkwrestling_styles_around_the_world_oc/") - [Folk Wrestling Styles Wikipedia Page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_wrestling "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_wrestling") - [Combat Sports In The Ancient World Book](https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Sports-Ancient-World-Competition/dp/0300063121 "https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Sports-Ancient-World-Competition/dp/0300063121") If you enjoyed this episode of **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/) **Published:** June 4, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Beach wrestling game used for Game Sense teaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kingofthebeach-1024x576.webp "kingofthebeach › Sonny Brown")I have recently discussed how we prepared for the "**King Of The Beach**" competition on a podcast. I noticed that what we did was very similar to how Andy from the [School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/school-grappling-developing-intuition-instincts/ "School of Grappling on Developing Grappling Intuition & Instincts") recommends structured training and the [Game Sense](https://www.sportaus.gov.au/p4l/game_sense_approach) pedagogy I studied at university. It was excellent training as everyone had a purpose, it was enjoyable, and it was one of those rare moments in time at a practice where everyone was in the mix together. It makes you grateful for having **positive training partners** and spending time training together. I can appreciate those kinds of moments even more now that we cannot get on the mats. But I noticed that everyone in the room seemed to progress substantially during that time which made me think about what we did. ## Game Sense For Wrestling We trained for around 6-8 weeks doing two classes a week that followed this format. Generally, we did between five to ten rounds of each segment depending on how many people were in class; they were 1 minute long with a 15-second break. Everyone in the class rotated at least once with different partners, so they had a chance to work with everyone in the class. Once everyone had been around, I would briefly show one offensive or defensive option that could work from the scenario. Partners would drill these a few times each, and then we would do a couple more rounds of the drill. ## Game Sense Progressions ### WARM-UP The warm-up consisted of stance drills and shadow wrestling to get people moving in a directly applicable way to the sport. ### HAND FIGHTING The goal was to work for either an inside collar tie or underhook and hold it for 3 seconds. ### SNATCH SINGLE The goal was to snatch and hold a single leg of the partner for up to 3 seconds. ### TAKEDOWN After you had the single leg, the goal was to complete the takedown and put your partner on the mat. ### PUSHOUTS A few rounds where you could score from pushing your opponent off the mat or into the wall. My memory of the particulars seems hazy, possibly because this turned out to be an area that I was less than excellent at. ### BEACH WRESTLING Then to finish, we did rounds rotating with the complete ruleset that the competition would be held under. On a few occasions, we also did a mini knockout tournament at the end to simulate the competition setting. ### COOL DOWN A standard static stretch routine for a cool down. As you may be able to tell from that, the focus of the competition was on snatch single-leg takedowns which, based on the ruleset, I thought would be the best way to play to win. But any takedowns were allowed once it came time to practice under the full beach wrestling rules. ## Does Game Sense Work For Grappling? ![Game Sense For Wreslting](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_king_of_the_beach-1024x1024.jpg "King Of The Beach › Sonny Brown")Overall, everyone who competed did well, with everyone managing to score takedowns, and overall it was merely a fun day of wrestling and camaraderie for the team. An experience I hope we can get close to replicating again in the future. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning --- ### [The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition For Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/three-stage-model-skill-acquisition-martial-art/) **Published:** November 1, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition For Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/three_stage_model_skill_acquisition_martial_art-1024x576.webp "The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition For Martial Arts › Sonny Brown")The skill acquisition process in martial arts is an incredibly complicated topic with multiple competing theories, each with its own body of research backing them. A simple way to look at this process describes three separate stages of skill acquisition (Cognitive, Associative & Autonomous). Here I will briefly describe them and how they relate to learning martial arts. Table Of Contents 1. [Cognitive Stage Of Skill Acquisition](#cognitive-stage-of-skill-acquisition) 2. [Associative Stage Of Skill Acquisition](#associative-stage-of-skill-acquisition) 3. [Autonomous Stage Of Skill Acquisition](#autonomous-stage-of-skill-acquisition) ### Cognitive Stage Of Skill Acquisition The first stage a beginner will encounter is the cognitive stage. The cognitive stage will occur when someone is facing a new skill for the first time, and they have to put a lot of concentration and thought process behind grasping whatever new movement they are tasked with performing. It's important to remember that everyone will have gone through the cognitive stage at some point in their journey on martial arts. Even the expert black belts will have had to think and mentally process a lot of the new information the first time it was presented to them. At this stage, the learner sometimes draws on prior experience in different sports or other [movement skills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill") to process the new techniques. This is where someone with experience in the sport ten more rapidly incorporates new movements into the game and why athletes who have experience in other sports and movement skills may find learning a new martial art easier. But suppose someone doesn't have any prior movement skills that they can draw upon. In that case, they may face difficulties and find themselves feeling uncoordinated and lacking confidence in performing the techniques. It's important to know that this can be expected of the learner and keep in mind that this is a normal part of the process if you are the learner. If you are the coach that it's important to give constructive feedback to correct errors, keep the learner positive, make sure that they are aware that what they are experienced in is normal, and help guide them on the process to Mastery. ### Associative Stage Of Skill Acquisition The next stage is known as the associative stage, and it's when the beginner has progressed beyond the cognitive stage to a point with a can execute a technique at a basic level and understand the difference between proper and incorrect technique. At this stage, they should look to refine the skill through repetition, live drills, situational work, [games](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki") and use in open sparring. An indicator that the learner has reached this stage is if they can perform the technique while drilling on a partner with no resistance. That is a sure sign that they understand the movement required and the correct application in the situation. But just because they can perform the technique in a drill, the associative stage means that they may not be quite able to complete the technique in a sparring situation. Taking the technique from a drill setting to a sparring situation can be difficult for the learner to achieve. There are many more variables that they are not in control of to perform the technique correctly. Of obvious the will, but through practice on multiple attempts, they can work on developing the timing and positional control to execute a technique correctly. A coach's role should be to help a learner pass through the associative stage in the most efficient way possible, including not spending too much time drilling against unresisting opponents. Instead, the process should involve incorporating different ways to help bridge the gap between drilling and sparring situations while increasing difficulty levels and feedback. ### Autonomous Stage Of Skill Acquisition The autonomous stage is the closest age to Mastery of a skill described in this simple three-stage model of skill acquisition. It's defined by a learner being able to perform an entire sequence of a technique without the need to think about it and with the ability to remain precise and accurate. Part of the autonomous state is the ability to identify their errors in the technique's performance and then correct them on the fly without the need for any external feedback from coaches or other training partners. Once they have reached the autonomous skill stage, they can execute the technique in various pressure situations with many distracting factors that will not inhibit their ability to perform the correct movements, and it will take place in a matter of seconds. The autonomous stage is where the athlete can be put in high-stress situations and still perform the technique because they don't have to think about what they're doing because it just happens for them automatically. Once a skill has reached this stage, it could be close to what many we consider mastery. Still, we have to keep in mind that it's always possible for someone to perform an incorrect technique autonomously, and that's where a coach will always have to be monitoring their students to give them feedback if that's the case. The autonomous stage can also explain why some high-level competitors do not always make the best coaches, as they may not have the cognitive understanding of the technique to break it down for students who need it. ## Application For Martial Arts Also, in martial arts, the correct technique in a competition scene may change as different strategies and tactics become successful by exploiting weaknesses in the current strategy and tactics used. Continual refinement with the constant evolution of techniques is where mastery must take place and where you can begin to fall in love with Jiu-Jitsu's continual process of training. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Jozef Chen On Rapid Learning From Jiu-Jitsu Instructionals & Technique Tinkering](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rapid-learning-instructionals-jozef-chen/) **Published:** July 25, 2022 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Jozef Chen - Rapid Learning From Jiu-Jitsu Instructionals](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jozef_chen-1024x576.jpg "Jozef Chen › Sonny Brown")I talk to Jozef Chen, a grappling phenom who recently took Bronze at the ADCC trials while only seventeen years old and relatively new to his jiu-jitsu training. We discuss how he gained his skill level at such a young age from using instructionals and drilling techniques in a conceptual style influenced by [Rob Biernacki](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki"). After preparing for the ADCC trials at the B-Team in Texas with [Craig Jones](https://www.sonnybrown.net/craig-jones-bjj-interview-down-under-danaher/ "Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu From Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment"), we talk about what his experience was like grappling in that high-level training environment and how he plans on training and teaching going into the future. ## Listen To Jozef Chen ### Apple [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Apple Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_apple.gif "tsbb_apple › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/rapid-learning-from-instructionals-technique-tinkering/id1476963733?i=1000571089207) ### Google [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Google Podcasts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_google.gif "tsbb_google › Sonny Brown")](https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9zb25ueWJyb3duLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/YmZkZTZmYzQtMThiNC00YmIyLTllYWEtYTFlY2EwMjIyMzJl?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjw-NuozpX5AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ) ### Spotify [![Listen to The Sonny Brown Breakdown on Spotify](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_spotify.gif "tsbb_spotify › Sonny Brown")](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4YpKAqWuCiqYgS7FTWyeW0) ### YouTube ## Topics ### Learning From BJJ Instructionals When Jozef watches instructional, he usually takes notes on his phone, if there is a specific technique or idea that he wants to remember, he will write it down. That helps him recall it when he am training as just watching the instructional and not taking any action is not enough. He will also sometimes record clips of the instructional video in case there are details or things that he missed while taking notes. But usually, he will just take notes and maybe take screenshots of what interests him and then after taking the notes, he will make sure to look over them again when I get to the gym to make sure that he understands everything that was taught in the video. He also focuses on the quality of the instructional video as some will teach you how to do things differently. For example, some videos might focus more on teaching you the technique, while others focus on giving you ideas and concepts. So before starting to watch an instructional video, he says it is important to think about how you want to learn and what you want to learn to get the most out of the video. ### How To Drill Techniques He thinks the traditional idea of drilling, where you do something repeatedly to get better at it, is flawed. His favourite use of that way to drill is to do it when he can't do the movement correctly. For example, if you don't know how to invert, you can drill that movement until you can do it correctly. But once you are able to do the movement correctly, he thinks doing drills for reps becomes redundant and inefficient. At that point, he will try to drill for what he calls understanding where he will ask his partner for prompts and vary resistance. Once he began to do that he thought of drilling differently after he saw how his partner reacted. Now he drills to play around with ideas and figure out what works best which also helps his partner understand what they were doing and also think about ideas for themselves. ### Training At B-Team Jiu-Jitsu When he was at the B-Team, he found that his drilling and learning style worked well. The way they did things was similar to what he was used to, but there were also some ways where they tried to teach me understanding and ideas in a unique way. However, he did not have enough time to study on his own while he was there. so he decided that he would do the class, but then he would have one session where he would be mostly in charge of what happened. He wouldn't roll but would continue to use his style of drilling and would have a partner drill with him on things that he had watched or been playing around with that might or might not be related to the class, but something he wanted to learn more about. ## Jozef Chen Podcast Resources #### Jozef Chen Links - [Jozef Chen Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/jozefchenjj/ "Jozef Chen Instagram ") - [Core-A Gaming](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7njg__VOy3n-SvXemDHvg "Core-A Gaming") - [Jozef Chen BJJ Highlights](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P7YWbcHH7M "Jozef Chen BJJ Highlights") - [Jozef's Visit to B-Team Jiu Jitsu](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBax3Ct-EE "Jozef's Visit to B-Team Jiu Jitsu") - [Jozef Paetzold Chen's ADCC Trials Training](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wndl__WI4pE) - [Rory van Vliet Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rory-van-vliet-alignment-jiu-jitsu-theory/ "Rory van Vliet On Alignment Theory & The Science Behind Your Jiu-Jitsu") - [Rob Biernacki Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/ "Rob Biernacki On Pedagogy, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Jiu-Jitsu") - [Priit Mihkelson Interview](https://www.sonnybrown.net/priit-mihkelson-interview-bjj-sport-art/ "Priit Mihkelson Interview On Why BJJ Must Be Taught as a Sport and Not an Art") #### Jozef Chen Quotes > What I'll try to do when I'm drilling is I'm not just drilling a technique on, a dummy who's cooperating. I'll try to vary the level of resistance, but I'll also ask my partner. Okay. What do you think of this position? What do you think of this technique? What do you, what will you do here? What do you think I should do here? > > Do you feel threatened? Do you feel like you're gonna off-balance me? All these different prompts to try to get a better understanding of these positions and therefore use (the drilling and training partner) to build a better understanding. > > - Jozef Chen If you enjoyed this episode of **[The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/ "MMA & BJJ Podcast")**, then make sure to **rate, subscribe and share the podcast.** ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Podcast --- ### [The Suloev Stretch Submission Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-suloev-stretch-submission-breakdown/) **Published:** September 9, 2018 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Suloev Stretch submission breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Suloev-StretchFB-1024x576.jpg "Suloev StretchFB › Sonny Brown")In this analysis, I'm going to give a quick breakdown of the Suloev stretch submission. A hamstring submission is executed from the back mount as your opponent tripods to escape. The Suloev stretch is a name [coined by writer KJ Gould](https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/2/24/4023928/ufc-157-judo-chop-kenny-robertsons-vs-brock-jardine-kneebar-submission-amar-suloev-stretch) after the Armenian MMA fighter [Amar Suloev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Suloev) who you can see using it here to submit Paul Cahoon. Amar previously fought in the UFC against Chuck Liddell and Phil Baroni. ## Suloev Stretch in Folkstyle Wrestling The move is very reminiscent of the banana split pin in [folkstyle wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coach-matt-lindland-interview-coaching-risk-olympic-wreslting/ "Coach Matt Lindland on Wrestling between Risk-Taking & Risk-Aversion"), which can be modified into a painful submission and has been used to get a tap in MMA. But the banana splits are executed from only one hook in and from a cross-body ride where you will reach across and grab the far leg of the opponent. It is also used in folkstyle wrestling matches where both boots are thrown in and as the opponent stands and tripods the leg is grabbed and used to off-balance the opponent knocking them over and securing back points. ## Suloev Stretch in MMA And there are some additional examples of its use in MMA when you have your opponent's back and they tripod up to throw you off the top of their shoulders, it will bring you closer to their foot which you can grab to then peel back and apply the submission. While it may look like a kneebar the majority of the pressure is being placed onto the hamstring hence the stretch name. While it's not advisable to get that high on your opponent's back to look for the submission, it does give you an option if you do find yourself there. ## STRETCH SUBMISSIONS in the UFC Aljamain Sterling had previously looked for it in a UFC bout against Renan Barão but he escaped. But the first successful application of the Suloev Stretch in the UFC belongs to Kenny Robinson in his match against Brock Jardine where again Brock tripods up and Kenny reaches down and grabs his ankle extending his hips and pulling back on Brock's leg to obtain the submission. And that was the only example of it being used in the UFC until of course Zabit and Aljamain Sterling both got on the same evening. I hope you enjoyed this quick look at the Suloev Stretch. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Judo in MMA - A study of throws from fights of Karo Parisyan](https://www.sonnybrown.net/karo-parisyan-judo-throws-in-mma-study/) **Published:** October 2, 2018 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Judoinmmaredux-1024x576.jpg "large old paper or parchment background texture › Sonny Brown")oKaro Parisyan is an Armenian born mixed martial artist who moved to America at the age of six and began training judo at the age of nine and was competing in freestyle fighting against fully grown adults when he was only fourteen years of age. In this study, we will list the Judo techniques that Karo utilized during his MMA career. ### Karo Parisyan - Start In MMA He was trained by the legendary Gokor Chivichyan and "Judo" Gene LeBell at the Hayastan academy where he also learned the Hayastan grappling system. He was a ferocious competitor and became a ten-time Junior national judo champion a four-time International judo champion and had faced the likes of Sean Sherk, Antonio McKee and Jason "Mayhem" Miller in MMA and was focusing on the 2004 Olympic Judo trials before he got the call-up from the UFC. ### Ippon Seoi Nage We will start with the Ippon Seoi Nage, the one-armed shoulder throw technique where both hands are used on one arm of the opponents as they are loaded onto the back lifted and thrown over the shoulder. ### Seoi Otoshi Seoi Otoshi or shoulder drop, it's a hand technique where the opponents are loaded onto the back and pulled straight down over the shoulder and thrown while you drop both knees to the mat. ### Harai goshi The Harai Goshi or sweeping hip throw is a hip technique where the opponent's balance is moved in a forward direction and your hip is turned and leg extended placing the back of your thigh against the front of the opponent's and as you continue pulling them forward this is used to sweep their legs out from underneath them in a sudden motion. ### Osotogari Osotogari or major outer reaping is a leg throw performed by stepping outside the leg of your opponent and cutting down on the back of their leg taking it out from underneath them. Although in practice when used by Karo in the UFC it often ended up looking more like a Harai Goshi when finished due to the movements of the opponent when being thrown. ### Ashi Guruma The Ashi Guruma or leg wheel consists of placing your leg against the opponent's leg between his knee and shin and then using the rotation of your arms and body to throw the opponent down with an instantaneous twisting motion. ### Uchi Mata The Uchi Mata or inner thigh reaping throw is a leg technique that consists of off-balancing the opponent diagonally towards you then rotating your body and placing the back of your thigh between the opponent's legs and swinging upwards in a sudden motion to execute the throw, an excellent sense of timing is required to achieve this throw and it is one that Karo has often favoured using in competition. You can see Karo using this throw while simultaneously working towards an Ude Garami grip on his opponent. ### Osoto Makikomi The Ude Garami, Kimura or double wrist lock was an attack that was also often favoured by Karo. With the use of the Kimura grip, these throws turn into variations of Makikomis or wrap around throws like the Osoto maki komi or large outside wrap around throw which begins as an Osotogari with your leg cutting down on the opponent's leg but then you wrap around your opponent's body and fall down with them. ### Harai Makikomi The Harai Maki Komi, a hip sweep wrap around throw which begins as a Harai Goshi by bringing the opponent on to the hip and twisting at the waist to flip the opponent over while also using the Kimura grip to wrap them around your own body and fall to the mat with them. These throws are classed as side sacrifice techniques and often finish with the opponent on your back but as Karo would hold onto the Kimuragrip he could remain on the offensive. ### Hikikomi Gaeshi Another use of the Kimura is with the Hikikomi Gaeshi or pulling in sacrifice throw, which consists of destabilizing the opponent in the forward direction and then inserting the instep of your foot between the opponent's leg in the crook of their knee while dropping onto your back and throwing them over your own head after which you can continue attacking with the Kimura from the top position. ### Kouchi Gari & Kosoto gari The Kouchi gari or small inner reaping that consists of off-balancing the opponent by pushing them and reaping their heel in a decisive scooping motion and the Kosoto Gari which is a small outer reap that also consists of scooping the opponent's leg sending them to the mat. ### Ōuchi Gari The Ōuchi gari or large inner reap is executed by moving straight into the opponent's chest and then performing a leg reap from the inner side swinging the reaping foot in a half-circle in order to spread the opponent's legs destabilize their balance and throw them onto their back. ### Kosoto Gake The Kosoto Gake or small outer hook consists of driving towards the opponent and placing a foot behind them, then after hooking the leg you can either lift and scoop the leg out or trap the leg and lean on them until they fall to the mat. ### Kibisu gaeshi & Kuchiki Taoshi The Kuchiki Taoshi or one hand drop consists of grabbing one of the opponent's legs and then pushing and running them down to the mat. This is often performed by Karo off of caught kicks. And the Kibisu Gaeshi or heel trip consists of grabbing the opponent's heel with one hand and then pushing the opponent over onto their back where they land on the spot. This is in contrast to the Kuchiki Taoshi where they are pushed and run backwards. ### Morote Gari And the Morote gari or two hands reap which is performed by grabbing both of the opponent's legs with both of your arms while driving forward and throwing them onto their back this technique is the Judo version of the wrestler's double leg takedown. ### Sukui Nage A Sukui Nage or scooping throw is executed when during a Morote gari, Karo scoops or lifts the opponent fully off the ground and slams them onto the mat. In MMA this was often performed by him when pressed against the fence. ### Karo Parisyan - the Pioneer fo Judo in MMA While spending most of his career training at Hayastan Academy with Gokor Chivichyan He also spent time at Team Punishment, training with Neal Melanson and at Xtreme Couture and during his time competing in mixed martial arts Karo became the WEC welterweight champion, the UFC welterweight number one contender, a Bellator veteran and winner of the 2006 fight of the year with Diego Sanchez. Although Judokas were fighting MMA in Japan at the time when Karo began fighting in the UFC Judo was severely underrepresented and somewhat dismissed by North American fans as a traditional martial art that may not hold any value for the future of freestyle fighting. But when Karo began to literally throw opponents on their heads he certainly changed that opinion. He paved the way for countless other Judokas in the UFC, gaining respect for the art by successfully adapting it and showcasing its effectiveness under the mixed martial arts rule set. That concludes our look at the use of judo in MMA through the lens of the career and legacy of Karo Parisyan. ## References - Parisyan, K., Krauss, E. and Cordoza, G. (2008). Judo for Mixed Martial Arts. Calif.: Victory Belt. - Harai-goshi (Hip sweep: [http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/kosi/harai/ ](http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/kosi/harai/%20) - Ashi-guruma (Leg wheel: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/asi/asiguruma/ - Uchi-mata (Inner-thigh reaping throw): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/asi/utimata/ - Osoto-makikomi (Large outside wraparound throw): http://www.judo ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/yoko/oosotomaki/ - Harai-makikomi (Hip sweep wraparound throw): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/yoko/haraimaki/ - Sumi-gaeshi (Corner throw): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/masute/sumigaesi/ - Kosoto-gari (Small outer reap: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/asi/kosotogari/ - Ouchi-gari (Large inner reap: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/asi/ooutigari/ - Kuchiki-taoshi (One-hand drop: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/te/kutikitaosi/ - Kibisu-gaeshi (Heel trip): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/te/kibisugaesi/ - Osotogari: https://judoinfo.com/quiz0297\_3/ - Harai Goshi: Sweeping Hip Throw: https://judoinfo.com/haraigo/ - Ko Uchi Gari: https://judoinfo.com/kouchi/ - Seoi-Otoshi (hand technique): <http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/digest/03/> - Ippon Seoinage (One Arm Shoulder Throw: [https://judoinfo.com/ippon-seoinage/ ](https://judoinfo.com/ippon-seoinage/%20) - Kibisu-gaeshi (Heel trip): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/te/kibisugaesi/ - Morote-gari (Two-hands reap): http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/te/morotegari/ - Kosoto Gake (Small Outer Hook): https://judoinfo.com/kosoto-gake/ - Hikikomi gaeshi: http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/technique/nage/masute/hikikomi/ - Beyond Grappling - The difference between kuchiki taoshi and kibisu gaeshi.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxTqi1NWPas - Grappling Central Podcast - Episode 030 - Karo Parisyan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVPqnbHh0eQ - SUMI GAESHI AND HIKKOMI GAESHI A COMPARISON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezjswwlXlBo - Combat Life: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKndpk8BdD0Isine6zHoDfw ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [Khabib Nurmagomedov Takedown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/khabib-grappling-takedown-breakdown/) **Published:** November 7, 2017 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Khabib Nurmagomedov takedown breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/khabib_takedown2-1024x576.jpg "khabib_takedown2 › Sonny Brown")Khabib Nurmagomedov began training at the age of six under the tutelage of his father and by the time of his first MMA contest he had gained a background in freestyle wrestling judo and [combat Sambo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/vlad-koulikov-interview-sambo-fusion-grappling/ "Vlad Koulikov Interview on Sambo Fusion & Unity Over Division In Grappling"). Before his UFC debut, Khabib's matches took place on either an open mat or in a ring and his early takedown game consisted almost exclusively of shooting to his knees for a single leg with the head on the inside. The majority of these shots are taken from outside of the striking range of his opponents and made with minimal setup. ## Single Leg Takedowns Once he got in on the single-leg he would finish them in three primary ways with the most common of these being the cutback. Next, we will see Ben Askren demonstrate how to finish the single-leg shot with the cutback. Once you have shot in on the single leg and finish by stepping your leg up, raising your head up to the ceiling, and pulling your opponent's leg up and across your body. Here we see examples of Khabib using the cut back in his matches. Here he shoots in on the single leg, lifts his leg up and then drags his opponent's leg up across his body. This single-leg finish was favoured by Khabib during the majority of his early matches. If his opponents were able to stand or maintain balance during the cutback then Khabib would switch to running the pipe. This is where once you have the single leg you rotate your body with a back step and as your opponent hops around you drop your weight onto their thigh to force them to sit down. Here during a match, you can see he's shooting for the single-leg rotate his body around and sit his opponent on their back. And lastly, his third option off the single-leg was to turn the corner. This is when once you have locked onto the single leg you start stepping around to the opponent's back, as you make your way around it is common that your opponent will pull guard but if you turn quicker than they do then you'll take their back. Here is a match, Khabib locks onto the single leg and as he turns his opponent pulls guard. With this shot, we'll see Khabib chain these techniques together as he shoots in low and grabs onto a single leg with his head on the inside. He first tries for the cutback, with that failing he stands and goes to running the pipe, also unsuccessful eventually turning the corner and taking his opponents back. With a pre-UFC career consisting almost entirely of single-leg shots, he would enter the Octagon with a 16-0 record and face a substantial step up in the level of competition. In his first outing, he would face an accomplished wrestler in Kamal Shalorus and with a head position against the cage and a good sprawl was able to defend Khabibis takedown attempts initially. But after causing damage with strikes he was able to work his usual strategy of a strong single leg with a cutback finish. ## Gleison Tibau - His Toughest Challenger But next, he would face his toughest challenger to date. Gleison Tibau is a physically imposing veteran of over 50 fights and holding an impressive 92 per cent takedown defence statistic. During the contest, Khabib applied his usual takedown strategy but had every single leg attempt defended. Overall he went 0 of 13 takedown attempts. Using the fence to keep his balance Tibau was able to defend against the cutback, running the pipe, turning the corner and any other technique that Khabib applied. Although Khabib still won a close decision victory that split opinions\* a weakness in his strategy had been revealed. ## American Kickboxing Academy After that fight, Khabib would switch his USA training camp to [American Kickboxing Academy](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jon-fitch-interview-fault-fail-mma-fighter-pay/ "Jon Fitch Interview On How It’s All Your Fault, Failing Upwards & Fighter Pay") and his next attempt at takedowns would see a new strategy employed. Against Abel Trujillo he would look for an upper-body clinch to take the back and secure a body lock he would then execute a series of trips, sweeps and throws. If you're interested in learning more about this mat return strategy you can view my other study which goes in-depth on this topic. Using this new strategy against Abel Trujillo he set the UFC record for the most takedowns in a match with 21 and all of this without any of its previously utilized single leg shots. Where he had once been relentless in shooting for single legs he was now persistent in securing upper body clinches body locks and taking the back. ## Upper Body Clinches With these clinches he would now also use a strategy which he had shown on a few previous occasions in his bouts prior to the UFC when clinching against the ropes Khabib would secure a body lock and then bounce and turn his opponents towards the centre of the Ring before executing an inside or outside trip takedown. This is a strategy favoured by Ben Askren as he demonstrates here using the fence to secure your body lock and then rotate your opponents away from it to prevent them from using the fence to keep balance. Once Khabib secures this he will then use a series of inside trips outside trips or brute force lifts. ## Pressure Striking to Takedowns Khabib would now also uses striking much more effective to set up these takedowns while his striking could be described as "wild" with winging hooks lunging uppercuts and flying knees, it serves a purpose to pressure his opponents, where if he now gets them on the fence and committing to or defending strikes he will grab a quick double leg takedown. And if you now attempt to negate Khabibs pressure striking by moving forwards he will shoot for a reactive double leg takedown. We have seen Khabib evolve from being primarily focused on single leg shots to now being more centred around upper body takedowns and using his striking to set up double legs. The constant threat of takedowns relentless mat returns and exhausting groundwork combined with wild and continuous pressure striking can force his opponents to make bad decisions. Like when RDA decided to shoot on Khabib in the third round setting up a massive [Hare Goshi throw](https://www.sonnybrown.net/karo-parisyan-judo-throws-in-mma-study/ "Judo in MMA – A study of throws from fights of Karo Parisyan"). Or when Abel Trujillo chooses to clinch with Khabib in the third round of their bout and lastly in the third round of his bout with Michael Johnson after having successfully sprawled Johnson decides to jump guard and go for a guillotine We will now take a look at the mat work and ground game of Khabib Nurmagomedov. It is a style that is often characterised by relentless top pressure with a superior head position, pinned on the chest or under the chin of his opponent stifling the shoulder movement while throwing scoring punches and elbows. # Khabib Grappling Breakdown ## Open Guard Punch to Pass Once the fight hits the mat Khabib has a diverse array of techniques that we'll be taking a closer look at here. The first of these is from an open guard position. When Khabib is standing he will launch in with a leaping overhand right in an attempt to pass the guard of his opponent and cause damage while doing so. The overhand to guard pass is a technique that was also employed by his countryman Fedor Emelianenko and Khabib even used it once to score a TKO victory. ## Knee Slice & Tripod Passing Once Khabib has engaged his opponent on the ground from either full guard or half guard he will look to pass using a knee slice. This is where Khabib raises his hips and knees higher than his opponents by beginning to stand and then dropping one knee back down to the mat while slicing his shinbone across his opponent's thighs. This is a passing strategy that was often employed by George St. Pierre and is ideally done with an underhook on the far side arm, but Khabib will even attempt to with an overhook. An interesting strategy of Khabib is that when attempting the knee slice pass, he is not always looking to pass the guard entirely. If he gets his ankle stuck in quarter guard, he will begin to throw punches and elbows at his opponent. He will often camp from this position using it to gain posture while his opponent is stuck below him and then starts to throw heavy shots. ## Knee on Neck Ride Another technique he will use when in a quarter guard or even from knee on belly is to use a shin or knee on neck ride. This is where he pins his opponent's neck by forcing his knee or shin down onto their throat which gives him additional control and posture to strike while making it extremely uncomfortable for his opponent. ## Double Wrist Lock Once he passes into side control one of his attacks is to look for the double wrist lock, where once he has control of the arm he moves his hips towards his opponent's head while applying torque to their shoulder. Currently, he successfully finished two fights using this technique. But his preferred technique from side control is to look for the topside crucifix. Which he will even move directly from a knee slice pass after pinning his opponent's arm with his far knee. ## Topside crucifix The topside crucifix is a powerful control position the traps both his opponent's arms leaving their face defenceless to Khabibs punches and elbows. While these punches are not the most powerful, they accumulate damage and drain the energy of his opponent. This technique utilises a concept that I like to think of is putting your opponent into a positional deficit. This is where you have now made your opponent's primary goal into escaping the crucifix but even if they do achieve that they will still find themselves trapped in side control. ## S-Mount If Khabib moves from side control to mount his favourite technique is to then transition into S-Mount. This is where one of your feet is brought forward past your opponent's shoulder which roughly puts your leg into an S shape where the position gets its name. While this does leave your opponent's hips free, it places all your weight down onto their chest and put you in an excellent position to attack their arms. From the S-Mount, Khabib will then attack with his favourite two submissions which are the triangle and the armbar. If his opponent gets their firearm underneath his leg, he will fall to his back while pulling his opponent on top and locking up the triangle choke. If they have their arm on the inside, he will drop to his back and attack the armbar. If they resist the armbar he will happily pepper them with strikes. He will also smoothly chain the two submission attacks together depending on the reaction of his opponent. Here he attacks with the armbar but as his opponent regains posture, he switches to a triangle choke. ### Attacking Guard It might seem odd for grappler more known for their crushing top game to have a preference for submissions off his back, But [Khabib ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabib_Nurmagomedov "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabib_Nurmagomedov")does have a very aggressive guard game where if he is taken down he then offensively looks for triangles and armbars which he will use to submit or sweep or even regain position. While I have shown some of Khabibs common habits even more impressive is the wide variety of technical moves he has executed once but only when they were required by the situation. ### A depth of Grappling Techniques This hints at the real depth of his game which is continuously evolving to use more advanced concepts, for instance, utilising headbutts from the closed guard when the rules allowed it, using a body triangle to control the back or employing an octopus guard to regain a standing position. From the knee slice pass cradling his opponent's leg. Even using the folkstyle wrestling cowcatcher to put his opponent back on the mat, defending a single-leg attempt with a belly roll and from a single leg ride using inside wrist control to continually break his opponent's posture and using a full leg mount against the cage. In conclusion, although fighting infrequently, Khabibs ground game went through massive evolutions in his last two fights against Darrell Horcher and Michael Johnson. If it continues at this pace, it will be fascinating to see what techniques Khabib continues to utilise in the future. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [It’s not how good you are, it’s how good you want to be By Paul Arden - Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/its-not-how-good-you-are-summary/) **Published:** July 31, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** [![It’s Not How Good You Are, It’s How Good You Want to Be Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/howgoodyouwanttobe-202x300-202x300.jpg "howgoodyouwanttobe-202x300 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/howgoodyouwanttobe-202x300.jpg) Nearly all rich and powerful people are not notably talented, educated, charming or good looking. They became rich and powerful by wanting to be rich and powerful. Your vision of where or who you want to be is the greatest asset you have. Without having a goal it’s difficult to score. #### **Why do we strive for excellence when mediocrity is required?** There is little demand in the commercial world for excellence, and there is a much bigger demand for mediocrity. Imagine the world where clients gave you total freedom to produce anything you wanted. You would react against it and get bored by it. That is the nature of the creative person; they need something to rebel against. #### **So how good do you want to be?** Everyone wants to be good but exactly how good is that? Talent helps but ambition will take you further. Few are willing to make the sacrifices it takes to be great. You must not confuse being good with being liked. The only way to learn to be good is to experience through mistakes, and you will become whoever you want to be. #### **You can achieve the unachievable.** You need to aim beyond your capabilities. You must completely disregard where your abilities end and try to do things that seem incapable. If you think you can’t do something, then make that your aim. Nothing is impossible. > *“I want to be as famous as Persil Automatic.”* > > – Victoria Beckham Victoria Beckham's dream was not just to become famous but to become a world brand. It’s not how good she was that mattered it’s how good she wanted to be. She didn’t compare herself to another famous singer but rather Persil Automatic and it’s that imagination that got her where she is today. #### **Have you noticed how the cleverest people at school are not those who make it in life?** At school, you only learn to remember and accumulate facts. Some people simply don’t have a good memory, but it doesn’t mean they are stupid. People who are conventionally clever at school will be overtaken by those who continually strive to be better than they are. #### **Do not seek praise. Seek Criticism.** You can always ask people who will tell you what you want to hear. Most people will say nice things rather than be too critical. Instead of seeking approval ask “What’s wrong with it and how you can improve it? And you are likely to get a more honest answer. #### **It’s all my fault.** If something goes wrong blame no one but yourself. If you accept responsibility, then you are in a position to do something about it. There are no excuses. #### **Do not covet your ideas.** Give away everything you know and more will come back to you. People are secretive with ideas as they fear other people will take credit for them. But if you horde ideas you will eventually become stale. If you give away everything, you will be forced to be aware and come up with new ideas. The more you give away, the more comes back to you. Ideas are just floating out in the ether, they are open knowledge, do not claim ownership of them just put yourself in the frame of mind to pick them up. #### **Don’t look for the next opportunity. The one you have in hand is the opportunity.** You can always wait for a perfect project, but it almost never happens. Whatever you are working on is the perfect project you have to make it the best you possibly can. #### **Accentuate the positive.** Find out what is good about your product or service and dramatise it as a caricature drawn by a cartoonist so that it is instantly recognisable. #### **Eliminate the negative.** Don’t bother wasting time attacking the competition. It gives them undue attention. #### **Do not put your Cleverness in front of the communication.** Creative people often feel the need to have ingenious ideas to justify themselves. But that can lead to work that on the surface appears clever but has little substance and does not tell a story. Spend time on what the problem is and you will discover a solution. Ask the right question and you will get the right answer. Let the answer and solution tell a story. #### **Don’t promise what you can’t deliver.** It is easy to promise too much and if you don’t match your expectations people will not trust you. If instead you underpromise and point out possible weaknesses and how to resolve them then you will build trust. They will also be grateful when you over-deliver. #### **Know your client’s aims.** A client’s motivations may be different from what they write down. Their personal aspirations would not be something they write down to give to you, but this is the clients real objective. All customers aspire to some form of status. #### **What do you do when your client doesn’t buy?** If you show a client what you want but not what he wants he will tell you. Show him what he wants first and then you can then show him what you recommend which will make them the empowered chooser instead of boxing them in. #### **Don’t take no for an answer.** Triumph through perseverance. #### **When it can’t be done, do it. If you don’t do it, it doesn’t exist.** An idea cannot be judged by the description it needs to be done to exist. Until something exists, it is very hard for anyone to understand it. You may have to do whatever it takes to get something done so you can make it live. If you can’t solve a problem it is because you are playing by the rules. #### **The person who doesn’t make mistakes is unlikely to make anything.** > *“I haven’t failed, I had 10,000 ideas that didn’t work”* > > – Benjamin Franklin Of the 200 light bulbs that didn’t work every failure told me something that I was able to incorporate into the next attempt.” – Thomas Edison. “False starts are the precondition of success. Failure is a major contributor to success. Failing is not regrettable, but a lack of initiative is. > *“Fail, Fail again, fail Better.”* > > – Samuel Beckett #### **It is wrong to be right.** Being right is based on knowledge and experience, knowledge comes from the past and is out of date and the opposite of originality. Experience builds from solutions to old problems, and these problems are likely different from present ones. Experience is the opposite of being creative. If you can prove you are right, then you are set in stone and cannot move with the times or go with the flow. Being right is also called being boring, having a closed mind and being arrogant. It is wrong to be right because these people are smug, rigid and rooted in the past. #### **It's right to be wrong.** Start being wrong and anything will become possible. You no longer have to be perfect. You are exploring the unknown and you have no way to tell what will happen. You have a much greater chance of creating something amazing than if you were trying to be right. Of course, there is also a risk but people who don’t take risks are merely trying to preserve what they already have. People who do take risks often end up having more. Fortune favours the brave. #### **Don't be afraid of silly ideas.** Everyone can get mental blocks and the way to be unblocked is to stop being concerned with being right. > *“High creativity is responding to situations without critical thought.”* > > – John Cleese To clear a mental block do the opposite of what the solution requires. Pick a random object to be the solution to your problem. #### **Play your cards right.** How you portray yourself will determine how people regard you. Give yourself some spin. Be more ambitious. How you perceive yourself is how others will perceive you. #### **It's not what you know it's who you know.** You can be the most talented worker in the world but someone less skilled will be seen as a greater authority if they are able to talk and present themselves better. Unfair as it may seem this is the reality of life. If you know what the tricks are you can play your cards right. #### **Don’t give a speech. Put on a show.** Instead of giving people the benefit of your wit and wisdom try painting them a picture. Tell them a story. The more strikingly visual your presentation is the more people will remember it and the more they will remember you. #### **Getting fired can be a positive career move.** It means that you were at odds with the company and the job was not a right fit for you. This can be because you have too much initiative. #### **Doing a layout means having an idea.** Treat a layout with the same passion and intensity that you bring to the main idea. Don’t just arrange words and pictures arbitrarily, Invent a brand image, a look that dramatises the product or service. You want it to be recognisable at a hundred paces. You want it to be striking and stick to peoples subconscious even if they only catch a fleeting glimpse. #### **Compose your ad from the weakest point.** Start a layout knowing where the big problems are that will need to be solved and make this an integral part of the idea. Be unfashionable and take risks. #### **Rough layouts sell the idea better than polished ones.** If you show a client a highly polished layout they will probably reject it. There is nothing for them to do and it is all your work and not their work so they will not feel involved. If they don’t like what one expects they will reject it upon seeing it. It is hard for them to imagine anything else if you show something with so much detail. Instead, first, show the client a scribble, explain it to him, let him use his imagination and get him involved. Work with him rather than confronting him with your idea. #### **If you get stuck, draw with a different pen.** Change the tools you are using and it may change the way you are thinking. Experiment with different tools and see what different results you get. #### **Suppliers are only good as you are.** You are the magic. Don’t hand work over to a supplier expecting them to produce the magic. You have the vision and allow them to expand it into something they haven’t done before. Lead them along the path to enlightenment. Show them a better way and show no fear. #### **Don’t be afraid to work with the best.** The best people can be difficult, single-minded and have tunnel vision and that is what makes them good. Approach them with the attitude to do good work and they will respond well as they want to do good work also. If you are clear and strong about what you want to do you may have arguments with them but they will respect you afterwards. #### **Get out of advertising.** 90% of advertising inspiration comes from other advertising. To be original you must seek your own inspiration from unexpected sources and merge influences. #### **Do not try to win awards.** Awards are judge by consensus, in other words by what is in fashion but originality can never be in fashion. Do not follow the fashion be true to yourself and it is far more likely that you will create something that is timeless. That is true art. #### **How you can make your company great.** Everyone wants to be proud of where they work. But not everyone is fortunate enough to work in a glamorous company.. What you can do about it is to start talking your company up. Begin thinking like a winner and behaving like a winner. This will halt negative thinking and a defeatist attitude. If people are talking your company down take issue with them. Don’t expect anyone else to lead the way. A company’s reputation can be built by one or two people so aim to be one of them. Decide you are going to make the company great. Just do it better. #### **How a senior manager can make a big difference.** A senior manager can broker an abnormal deal that can make huge differences to both creative standards and morale. #### **How a junior account handler can make a big difference.** You can use your initiative to further your agency's image and your own. Set aside some time and money to make astonishing fresh creative work. Speak to the very best creative people about doing some extra special work. Do not make it politically correct but focus on making it creatively excellent. Take risks. If you fail do it again. #### **How a media buyer can make a big difference.** They have a huge influence on when, where and what advertising is seen. They normally make these decisions based on statistics and are boring and dull. Instead, make your advertising more visible. #### **What is meant by the word “creative”?** “Creative” is the currency in which ad agencies operate and means something different to each client. So you must find out exactly what your client means by it as it will probably be different from your definition. #### **How to improve your strike rate.** Slogans win business. You need to find a way to sum up what the client wants to feel about his company but cannot express themselves. You need to make them proud of the company they work for. Make your slogan an integral part of the headline. Every version you show will imprint the idea on the client's mind. Advertising starts with a name, if you have a presentation use their logo and colour schemes. Make them feel at home. Present the creative work first don’t bore them with charts and statistics. Do not do something too original or too controversial on your first meeting with a client. Present on a Tuesday. #### **My finest hour.** The subject itself is the story and it is better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. Would you rather be fired for having taken a risk or not be fired for playing it safe? Take the risks #### **Notes from the pulpit.** People can regard advertising as trying to sell people things they don’t want and as rather distasteful. But everyone is selling something, everyone is hustling trying to make people buy something, it could be their services or their point of view. The way you dress is selling yourself, you clean your car to sell it so you show it to its best advantage. We are all selling it as a part of life. #### **Lifes creative circle.** The popular idea of creativity is that it has to do with the arts but this is nonsense. Creativity is imagination and imagination is for everyone. ### **Wit and Wisdom**I It's better to fail in originality than succeed in imitation” – Herman Melville. “Success is going from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm.” – Winston Churchill “The first thing to decide before you walk into any negotiation is what to do if the other fellow says no.” – Ernest Bevin “There are no shortcuts to any place worth going.” – Beverly Sills “Those who lack courage will always find a philosophy to justify it.” – Albert Camus “Some people take no mental exercise except from jumping to conclusions.” – Harold Acton “If everything seems under control you are not going fast enough.” – Mario Andretti “Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a mechanic” – Laurence Peter ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [ReWork Book - Notes and Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rework-book-notes-and-summary/) **Published:** August 5, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Change the way you work forever with REWORK. A Book by Jason Fried & David Heinemeier Hansson - Notes and Summary Table Of Contents 1. [FIRST](#first) 2. [TAKE DOWNS](#take-downs) 3. [GO!](#go) 4. [PROGRESS](#progress) 5. [PRODUCTIVITY](#productivity) 6. [COMPETITORS](#competitors) 7. [EVOLUTION](#evolution) 8. [HIRING](#hiring) 9. [DAMAGE CONTROL](#damage-control) 10. [CULTURE](#culture) 11. [CONCLUSION](#conclusion) ### FIRST ![REWORK Book by Jason Fried & David Heinemeier Hansson - Notes and Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/rework-200x300.jpg "REWORK Book by Jason Fried & David Heinemeier Hansson - Notes and Summary › Sonny Brown")REWORK Book by Jason Fried David Heinemeier Hansson Notes and Summary #### **The new reality.** - Is for people who are looking for an edge in their business. To work smarter and kick ass. - Today anyone can be in business. Tools that used to be out of reach are now readily available as the price of technology has dropped. - Tasks that would have been impossible a few years ago are simple today or what may have taken entire departments can be done by one person. - You don't need to deplete your savings to start a business on the side. It can provide you with cash flow, and you can work from home. ### TAKE DOWNS #### **Ignore the real world.** - “This would never work in the real world” is often used to shut down a new idea. The real world is a somber place; it is where new ideas, novel approaches and foreign concepts always lose. - Only things that win in the “Real world” are what people already know and do. No matter how flawed or inefficient they may be. - This idea of the “Real World” is very pessimistic and assumes that society isn't capable or ready for a change. People with this outlook want to drag others down into it and convince you that your ideas are impossible. Don’t believe them. - That world may be real for other people, but it doesn't mean you have to live with it. - This idea of the real world isn't a place it is just an excuse for not trying, and it has nothing to do with you. #### **Learning from mistakes is overrated.** - Failure is not a rite of passage. You will often hear that failure builds character and to fail early and fail often or even fail better. But other people's failures are not yours. - If other people can't market, build or price services it has nothing to do with you. - What you learn from mistakes is what not to do again which doesn't tell you what you should do next so it's not as valuable as some people would say. - It is much better to learn from your successes as this gives you real ammunition. - If something succeeds, you know what worked, and you can do it again and possibly even better. - Failure is not a prerequisite for success. Evolution doesn't linger on past failure; it's always building on what worked. So should you. #### **Planning is guessing.** - Unless you are a fortune teller or a psychic a long term business plan is simply fantasy. There are too many unknown factors that are out of your hands to predict things accurately. - A plan makes you feel in control of stuff you can control. They are guesses. - Turning guesses into plans is dangerous as plans are inconsistent with improvisation. You have to be able to improvise. But a plan is driven by decisions made in the past. - I disregard for plans does not mean to say you shouldn't think about the future, just don't obsess over it or write it down. Decide what you will do this week, not the year. - Working without a plan may seem scary but blindly following a plan that does not respond to changing environments is even scarier. #### **Why grow?** - Expansion and having a larger business should not always be the goal. - Find the right size for your business and stay there. Grow slow and see what feels right. - Small is not just a stepping stone it is a great destination in itself. - A big business would dream about being as agile and flexible as a small business. - Make your goal to run a business that's sustainable and profitable, If it is big or small should not make a difference. #### **Workaholism** - Our culture celebrates the idea of a workaholic.But working more does not mean you get more done. - You want to make sure you work in a sustainable manner otherwise you will just cause more problems for yourself. - You don't just want to try and fix problems by throwing hours at them and brute force. You want to come up with efficient, elegant solutions. - It is much better to figure out a faster way to do things. #### **Enough with the entrepreneurs.** - Be a starter. The term entrepreneur is outdated and loaded with baggage. Everyone should be encouraged to start their own business not just people that think they are entrepreneurs. - People are out there creating businesses and making profits by doing what they love on their terms and get paid for it. These are starters. ### GO! #### **Make a dent in the universe.** - To do great work, you must believe that you are making a difference in the world. That you are putting a meaningful dent in the universe and that what you are doing is part of something important. - You just have to make sure that your efforts feel valuable and that people would notice if you stopped doing what you do. - If you are going to do something, do something that matters. #### **Scratch your itch.** - The easiest way to create a great product or service is to make something you want to use.Find something that is missing in the world or an area where an excellent product does not exist that you would use and build that. - If you are solving someone else's problem you are taking stabs in the dark but when you solve your problems you know exactly what the right answers are. - The solve your problem approach lets you fall in love with what you are making. There is no substitute for that. #### **Start making something.** - Just start. Having the idea for eBay has nothing to do with actually creating eBay. What you DO is what matters not what you think or say or plan. - If you think the ideas you have are valuable, then go and try to sell them and see what you get for them. You likely won't get much. - Until you start making something, your brilliant idea is only an idea, and everyone has one of those. - Ideas are cheap and plentiful. The real question is how well you execute. #### **No time is no excuse.** - The most common reason people give is they do not have enough time.They claim they would do exceptional work, but there are not enough hours in the day. - But there is always enough time if you spend it right. You can work a day job and work on your project at night instead of watching TV. - You only have to squeeze in a few extra hours every week, and that will be enough to get something going. - When you want something bad enough, you make the time. Don't give yourself an excuse. Take the responsibility of making your dreams come true. #### **Draw a line in the sand.** - Once you get your project going keep in mind why you are doing what you are doing. Great businesses have a point of view. - You have to believe in something . You need to know what you are willing to fight for. - A strong stand is how you attract super fans. They will point to you and defend you and they spread the word further and wider and more passionately than any advertising. - Having a strong opinion will turn some people off, they will accuse you of being arrogant, but thats life, for everyone who loves you there will be others who hate you. - If no one is upset by what you are saying you are not pushing hard enough. - When you don't know what you believe in everything is debatable. But when you stand for something decisions are obvious. #### **Mission statement impossible.** - Live it or leave it. There is a world of difference between truly standing for something and just having a mission statement that says you stand for something. - Standing for something isn't about just writing it down . Its about believing in it and living it. #### **Outside Money is Plan Z.** - Far too often people look to raise money from outsiders. If you are building something like a factory you may need outside cash. - If you are running a service business you will not need expensive infrastructure. - No matter what kind of business you are starting it is best to take on as little outside cash as possible. - Spending other peoples money may sound great. But You give up control . Once you have accepted outside money you have to answer to them too. - Cashing out will begin to trump building a quality product because investors want their money back . - Spending other peoples money is addictive and it is usually a bad deal where you have no leverage. - Customers move down the totem pole as you end up building what the investors want instead of what the customers want. - Raising money is distracting you from doing the actual work. #### **You need less than you think.** - Do you really need ten people or will two do for now ? Do you really need six months or can you make something in two ? Do you need a big office or can you work from a home office ? Do you need a warehouse or can you rent a small storage space or use your garage? - Maybe eventually you will need to go the bigger more expensive route but there is nothing wrong with being lean and efficient. - Good companies start in garages all the time and yours can too. #### **Start a business, not a start-up.** - Start-ups are a magical place in a fairy tale. They spend other peoples money and are not concerned with revenue. - But every business has the same market forces to deal with. Revenue in , expenses out . Turn a profit or wind up gone. But start-ups try to ignore this reality. - Anyone who has the “We will figure out how to make a profit in the future” attitude is delusional. - Actual businesses worry about profit from day one. Act like an actual business and you have a better chance of succeeding. #### **Building to flip is building to flop.** - You need a commitment strategy not an exit strategy. Your priorities are out of whack if you are thinking about how to get out before you even dive in . - You should be thinking how to make your project grow and succeed not how you are going to jump ship. - Focus on running a business you actually enjoy and believe in and will provide you with satisfaction. #### **Less Mass.** - Embrace the idea of having less mass. Right now you are the smallest, fastest and most lean your business will ever be and from here on you will start to accumulate mass. - The more mass the more energy is required to change direction. Avoid mass wherever you can so you can quickly change anything. - With low mass you can fix mistakes quickly, you can change your priorities and you can change your mind. ### PROGRESS #### **Embrace constraints.** - “I do not have enough time, money, people, experience.” Stop complaining less is a good thing and constraints are advantages in disguise. - Limited resources force you to make do with what you have got and to be creative with it. - Writers use constraints to force creativity all the time. Having these constraints stops you from making bloated work. - See what you can do with what you have. #### **Build half a product, not a half-assed product.** - You can turn a bunch of great ideas into a crappy product by trying to do them all at once. - You can't do everything and do it all well. You have limited time, resources and abilities. Make a sacrifice and spend your time on one idea and make it great, do not waste your time making something half assed. - Getting to great starts by cutting stuff that is merely good. #### **Start at the epicentre.** - When you start something new you have forces pulling you in many different directions. - You have stuff you could do and stuff you have to do. You should start with the stuff you HAVE to do . That is the epicentre. - To find the epicentre you can ask yourself “If i took this part away would what i am selling still exist?” - Find the epicenter and focus all your energy on making it the best it can possibly be. This build a strong foundation that everything else will rest on. #### **Ignore the details early on.** - Details make the difference but getting infatuated with details too early leads to disagreement, meetings and delays. - You can get lost in things that don't really matter and you waste time on things that will change anyway. - Also you often can't recognise the details until after you start building and thats when you see what needs more attention. Start the work first and worry about the details later. Do not let the details delay the work. #### **Making the call is making progress.** - When you put off decisions they pile up and piles get ignored, thrown out or dealt with in haste. - Swap “Lets think about it” for “Lets decide on it” whenever you can. Commit to making decisions and don't wait for the perfect solution as it may never come and you end up wasting time. - Get into the rhythm of making choices. The more decisions you make the more progress you make. This will build momentum and boost morale. - You are as likely to make a great call today as you are tomorrow or next week so just do it. - Long projects drain morale and the longer things take the less likely they are to launch. Make the call and make progress while you have the motivation and momentum to do so. #### **Be a curator.** - You don't make a great museum by putting all the art in the world in a single room that is called a warehouse. - What makes a museum great is the stuff that is not on the walls. A curator is involved making conscious decisions about what should stay and what should go. - Its the stuff you leave out that matters. COnstantly look for things to remove, simplify and streamline. Stick to what is truly essential. - You can always add things back later if you need too. #### **Throw less at the problem.** - When things aren't working the natural inclination is to throw more at the problem, more people, time or money. But all that will do is make a bigger problem. - The right way to do it is the opposite. Cut back. - Do less. You will be forced to make tough calls and sort out what truly matters. #### **Focus on what won’t change.** - Lots of companies follow what is hot and new and the latest trends but that is the fools path. - The core of your business should be built around things that won't change and will be timeless. - Fashion fades away so focus on permanent features that will never go out of style. #### **Tone is your fingers.** - You can buy the same guitar, effects pedals and amplifier as Jimi Hendrix but when you play that rig it will still sound like you. - Fancy gear can help but at the end of the day the tone will come from you. - Its always tempting to obsess over tools instead of what you are going to do with the tools - People use equipment as a crutch. They dont want to put in the hours required to improve they just want to spend money on fancy gear that they think will make them improve. They are looking for a shortcut. - You don't need the best gear in the world and you sure don't need it to get started. The content is what matters not the tools. Use whatever you have already got or can afford. #### **Sell your by-products.** - When you make something you always make something else. Everything has a by product. Spot these opportunities #### **Launch Now** - When is your product or service finished and when should you put it on the market ? . - This is probably a lot sooner than you will be comfortable with. Once your product does what it needs to do just get it out there. - Just because you have a list of things still to do does not mean it is not done. You cannot put a project on hold because you have a few leftovers. You can do them later. - Put off everything you don't need for launch. Build the necessities now. Worry about the luxuries later. - You still want to build something great just recognise the best way to get there is through iterations. ### PRODUCTIVITY #### **Illusions of agreement.** - The business world is littered with dead documents that do nothing but waste peoples time. These documents take forever to produce and seconds to forget. - If you do have to explain something you should be doing everything you can to remove layers of abstraction. With too much abstraction a hundred people could read the same document and interpret it a hundred different ways. - Get the chisel out and start making something real. Anything else is just a distraction. #### **Reasons to quit.** - Its easy to put your head down and just work on what you think needs to be done but its a lot harder to pull your head up and ask why. - The important questions you need to ask yourself to make sure you are doing the work that matters are … - Why are you doing this ? What problem are you solving? Is this actually useful ? Are you adding value ? Will this change behaviour ? Is there an easier way ? What could you be doing instead ? - Is it really worth it ? Is what you doing really working. Is it worth pulling an all nighter or could you finish it up tomorrow ? Determine the real value of what you are about to do before taking the plunge. - Keep asking yourself the above questions, you don't need to make it a formal process just dont let it slide. #### **Interruption is the enemy of productivity.** - If you are constantly staying late and working weekends its not because theres too much work to be done its because you are not getting enough done at work and the reason is interruptions. - When do you get the most don ? Late at night and early mornings when you have no interruptions - Interruptions break your workday into a series of work moments. You can't get meaningful things done if you have to stop and start all the time. Get in the zone and set up a system that will give you alone time and block out all interruptions #### **Meetings are toxic.** - The worst interruptions of all are meetings. They are usually about words and abstract concepts, not real things. They drift off subject. They require preparation. Its easy for one person to waste everyone's time. One meeting will lead to another. - If you must have a meeting try to make it as productive as possible by sticking to rules. - Set a timer, when it rings the meeting is over. No exceptions. Invite as few people as possible. Always have a clear agenda. Begin with a specific problem. Point to real things and suggest real changes. Always end with a solution and make someone responsible for implementing it. #### **Good enough is fine.** - A lot of people get off on solving problems with complicated solutions. Flexing your intellectual muscles can be intoxicating. - A better idea is to use a judo approach one that delivers maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Judo solutions are all about getting the most out of doing the least. - When good enough gets the job done, go for it . Its way better than wasting resources or doing nothing because you can't afford a complex solution. #### **Quick Wins.** - Momentum fuels innovation. It keeps you going It drives you and without it you can't go anywhere. If you are not motivated by what you are working on it won't be very good. - One way to build momentum is to get some things done and move on to the next thing. - The longer something takes the less likely you are going to finish it. Small victories let you celebrate and release good news and you want a steady stream of good news. #### **Do not be a hero.** - A lot of times it is better to be a quitter than a hero .You can be determined to make things work despite how much longer it is taking compared to what you planned to spend on it.The hero will think that you cannot give up . - But you have to asses if the task is really worth it? If a task was worth it it would not take a large chunk of your time that you could have gotten many other things done. - Sometimes the obvious solution is quitting. Sometimes its exactly what you should do . - If you have already spent too much time on something walk away from it . You can't get the time back and the worst thing is to waste more time on it. #### **Go to sleep.** - [Forgoing sleep is a bad idea](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!"). Sure you get those extra hours right now but you pay for it later. Once in a while you can pull an all nighter just don't make it a habit. - When you lack sleep you become stubborn, lack creativity have diminished morale and are easily irritable. #### **Your Estimates suck.** - We are all terrible estimators. We think we can guess how long something will take but the truth is we have no idea. We only see best case scenarios but reality is never like that. - Break big tasks into smaller thing. The smaller things are the easier they are to estimate . But you are still likely to get it wrong but you will be less wrong. #### **Long lists don't get done.** - Start making smaller to do lists. Long lists collect dust. They are guilt trips , the longer the list of unfinished items the worse you will feel about it and stress you out. - Break that long list down into a bunch of smaller lists. You will still have the same amount of stuff to do but you can look at the small picture and be motivated. - Whenever you can divide a problem into smaller chunks so you can get it done as quickly as possible. - Simply prioritise visually and put the most important things at the top , do not worry about labels or numbers. #### **Make tiny decisions.** - Big decisions are hard to make and hard to change. Once you make one you tend to continue with it and stick with it even if it was the wrong decision. - Instead make small choices that are enough that they are effectively temporary. - Small decisions mean you can afford to change. This doesn't mean you can't make big plans it just means you achieve those things one small decision at a time. - Attainable goals are the best ones to have. ### **COMPETITORS** #### **Do not copy.** - Sometimes copying can be part of the learning process. but copying in business is more nefarious. Its tempting to try and build a business by being a copycat but it is a formula for failure. - You have to understand why something works or why it is the way it is and copying skips those steps. - If you are a copycat you can never keep up You never lead you always follow. #### **Decommoditize your product.** - If you are successful other people will try and copy what you do. Its a fact of life. - A great way to protect you from copycats is to make YOU part of the product. - Inject what is unique about yourself into the product or service and this will make it something no one else can offer. - Pour yourself into your product and everything around your product and competitors will never be able to copy it. #### **Pick a fight.** - If you think a competitor sucks , say so . When you do you will find others that will agree with you and rally to your side. - Being the Anti - Is a great way to separate yourself from the pack and get followers. - You can even put yourself as an opponent of an entire industry. - Having an enemy gives you a great story to tell customers. Taking a stand will always stand out. People get stoked by conflict. Passions are ignited and they will take notice. #### **Underdo your competition.** - Conventional wisdom says you must outdo your competition and constantly one up them. - Instead you should do less than your competitors. Solve the simple problems and leave the big nasty problems to the competitors. - Dont shy away from the fact your product or service does less. highlight it and be proud of it. #### **Who cares what they are doing ?** - In the end its not worth paying much attention to the competition anyway . Because worrying about the competition can turn into an obsession Every little move becomes something to analyse, this leads to stress and anxiety and is a terrible state of mind to have. - Instead focus on yourself and your own work . These are the things that are within your control . THere is no point spending time worrying about someone else when you can spend that time on improving yourself. - If you focus on other peoples ideas you become reactionary instead of visionary . Just focus on making your own product the greatest it can be. ### EVOLUTION #### **Say no by default.** - “if i had listened to customers i would have given them a faster horse” - Henry Ford. - It is very easy to say yes to another feature an optimistic deadline a mediocre design. You can make the stack of things you have said yes to so tall that it will out grow the things you should really be doing. - Get into the habit of saying no. Use the power of no to get your priorities straight. People avoid saying no because confrontation makes them uncomfortable. But the alternative is even worse. You will drag things out and make it more complicated. #### **Let your customer Outgrow you.** - When you stick with your current customers no matter what then you will wind up cutting yourself off from new customers. - If your product or service only becomes tailored to existing customers you can stop appealing to any new customers which will cause your business to fail. - Scaring away new customers is worse than losing old customers. If you let customers outgrow you it will keep things simple and basic which is easier for you. - You can't change everything to suit everyone. Just be true to the type of customer you want to attract. #### **Don't confuse enthusiasm with priority.** - The enthusiasm you have for a new idea is not an accurate indicator of its true worth. You will get new ideas from everywhere and if you end up chasing them all you will never get anywhere. - Let your latest ideas cool off a bit first. Keep having great ideas but just don't act in the heat of the moment. Write them down and let them sit for a few days and look over them again with a calm mind. - Only with a calm mind can you make a good judgement about priority. #### **Be at-home good.** - To often you can buy a product that looks great in the store, the packaging and marketing but then you get it home and it doesn't live up the the claims and hype of the box. - You want to make a product that is even better when you get it home even if you have to sacrifice some of the in store sizzle. - Being great at a few things and delivering on those may not seem as good as competitors who load up with bells and whistles . But to create a long term relationship of trust with your customer it is better to be great at a few things and exceed their expectations. #### **Don’t write it down.** - Don’t keep track of every little request from customers. The important ones you will hear over and over again and that is what you should focus on. The ones you can’t forget are the ones you should work on. - The really important stuff won’t just go away but trivial stuff will. #### **Welcome obscurity.** - No one knows who you are when you start out and that is a blessing in disguise. You can use this time to make mistakes without the whole world watching them. - You can test random ideas and try new things and it won't be a big deal if you make mistakes. The obscurity will protect your ego and preserve your confidence. - The early days of obscurity are something you will miss later on when you are under the microscope. In the beginning take risks without worrying about embarrassing yourself. #### **Build an audience.** - All companies have customers but lucky or great companies have fans. But the most fortunate companies have an audience. - Most business will have to spend money to reach people every time they have something to say. But this approach is expensive and unreliable. - Today's smartest companies know that instead of going out to reach people it is much better to have people who want to come to you and listen to everything you have to say. - When you build an audience you don't have to buy peoples attention they will just give it to you. #### **Out-teach your competition.** - Everyone is advertising and sponsoring and has salespeople working for them. Instead of trying to outsell them you should try to out teach them. - Teach and you will form a bond you just don't get from traditional marketing tactics. You can buy attention with an ad but you will earn loyalty by teaching them and it will form a stronger connection with more trust and more respect. - Teaching is something a smaller company can do that larger companies cannot. Teaching is your chance to out maneuver them. #### **Emulate chefs.** - Why do you know some great chefs when there are countless great chefs in the world ? They are the ones that share everything they know in cookbooks and on cooking shows. - As a business owner you should share everything you know too. Most businesses are paranoid and secretive but you shouldn't be afraid of sharing. - What can you tell the world about how you operate thats informative, educational and promotional ? #### **Go behind the scenes.** - Give people a backstage pass and show them how your business work. Even boring jobs can be fascinating when presented right. - People are curious about how things are made, like a factory tour or behind the scenes footage. - Letting people behind the curtain changes your relationship with them as they will feel a bond with you and see you as a human being instead of a faceless company and they will develop a deeper level of understanding and appreciation for what you do . #### **Nobody likes plastic flowers.** - The business world is full of professionals who wear the uniform and try to seem perfect. But they will just come off as stiff and boring and people can't relate to that. - Do not be afraid to show your flaws. Imperfections are real and people respond to that. We like real flowers the wilt not fake plastic flowers. - Talk like you really talk and reveal things that others are unwilling to discuss. It might not seem as professional but it will be a lot more genuine. #### **Press releases are spam.** - A press release is a generic pitch sent out to hundreds of people hoping that someone will take notice of it . This is the same as spam. - Press releases are supposed to get you noticed but these are using the same technique as everyone else and will not stand out. - Instead call someone or write a personal note. Contact journalists who have written stories about similar companies or products. - Do something meaningful. Be remarkable. Stand out. be unforgettable. #### **Forget about the wall street journal.** - Forget about all the big mainstream publications , getting a hold of someone at those places is almost impossible. You are better off focusing on a smaller trade publication or niche blog. - The barrier is much lower and you don't have to deal with an editorial board. The audience will be more targeted and people will already trust these tastemakers. - Coverage in mainstream publications is nice but you will get a lot more traction from stories in smaller more trusted platforms. #### **Drug dealers get it right.** - Drug dealers are astute business people. They will give away some product up front for free because they know you will be back for more. - Make your product so good and addictive so that giving customers a free taste will make sure they come back ready to buy. - Be confident in what you are offering and give a little bit away for free. #### **Marketing is not a department.** - Everything is marketing. Marketing is something everyone in your company is doing all the time. Every time you answer the phone, send an email , your invoice or any communication between you and the customer is marketing. - All of these are more important than a single ad. Marketing is more than an individual act it is the sum total of everything you do. #### **The myth of the overnight sensation.** - You will not be a big hit right away and you will not get rich quick. Any overnight success story you hear is not the full story. It usually involves years of hard work before the success happens. - Start building an audience , start getting people interested and keep at it for a few years and then one day you might be an overnight success story. ### **HIRING** #### **Do it yourself first.** - Never hire anyone to do a job until you have done it yourself first. That is the only way you will understand the nature of the work and what a job well done looks like. - You can write realistic job description and know what question to ask in an interview and it will make you a better manager. - Be intimately involved in all aspects of your business otherwise you will end up in the dark and in the hands of others. #### **Hire when it hurts.** - Do not hire for pleasure hire to kill pain. But always ask yourself what would happen if you didn't hire anyone, if the extra work is really necessary or if you can solve the problem first with a change of practice ? - If you lose someone don't replace them straight away, see how long you you can get by without them as you may be able to cope and it will save you money and help streamline your business. - The right time to hire is when there is simply more work than you can handle for a sustained period of time. #### **Pass on great people.** - Some companies are addicted to hiring. But pass on hiring people you don't need and bringing on extra staff for the sake of it. You will be doing your company more harm than good if you hire talented people but give them nothing to do . - Problems arise when you have more people than you need because you will start to invent work to keep people busy but it will not be the necessary work and can lead to artificial project that will just increase the complexity of whatever you are doing. #### **Strangers at a cocktail party.** - If you go to a cocktail party and no one knows each other you will find the conversation dull and boring and generally small talk where you shy away from controversial opinions. - A small intimate dinner party with old friends will involve genuinely interesting conversation. - If you hire a ton of people too rapidly you will create a strangers at a cocktail party vibe where everyone is too polite and doesn't want to offend anyone. - You need to build a safe environment that people feel they can be honest in . Hire slowly and let your team grow like an intimate dinner party. #### **Resumes are ridiculous.** - We all know resumes are a joke filled with exaggerations and buzzwords. They can be sent out to hundreds of companies in just another form of spam. - You want candidates that care specifically about your company. To do this check the cover letter and make sure you get actual communication instead of a list of skills. Make sure it is personalised for you. - You can tell more about a person from the cover letter than from the resume. #### **Years of irrelevance.** - A job ad might ask for a certain amount of years experiance but that really tells you nothing about the candidate. - You do of course need a baseline level of experience of 6 months to a year but beyond that the curve of what people will learn starts to flatten out. - How long someone has been doing something is overrated and not important you want to concern yourself with how well they have been doing it. #### **Forget about formal education.** - I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. - Mark Twain. - Plenty of companies have formal education requirements. But you will miss out on plenty of intelligent people who don't excel in the classroom . Too much time in academia actually will do harm . #### **Everybody works.** - Delegators are dead weight. With a small team you need people who will actually do work not delegate work. No one can be above work. - Delegators will tie people up to make themselves feel important while not doing any work and drawing other people away from doing the real work. #### **Hire managers of one.** - Managers are people that come up with their own goals and execute them. People who don't need direction or daily check ups they manage themselves and get things done. - You want someone who is capable of setting up projects from scratch and completing them. Find those people and members of your team wont burden others. #### **Hire great writers.** - If you have to decide among a few different people to hire pick whoever is the best writer. No matter what position you are looking to fill writing skills will always pay off as it is a sign of clear thinking - Good writers can communicate clearly and make things easy to understand. This is the currency for good ideas and can be more valuable than any other skill. . #### **The best are everywhere.** - Just because someone lives far away is no excuse not to hire them. In todays world with our current technology it is easy to bring everyone together online. - Catch up online a few hours everyday and meet in person once and a while but just focus on hiring the best person do not worry about where they live. Focus on talent not geography . #### **Test-drive employees.** - Interviews can only tell you so much But you really need to evaluate how people work from day to day and the best way to do that is actually see people work. - Hire people for a mini project that may only take a day or two and you will see how they make decisions and get to judge them on actions instead of words. ### DAMAGE CONTROL #### **Own your bad news.** - If something bad happens someone will want to tell the story so it is better off that it is you delivering the story. Otherwise it creates an environment for rumours or false information to spread. - If something bad happens , tell your customers, don't think you can just ignore it. In this day and age it is very hard to hide information and keep secrets. - People will respect you more if you are open and honest. and responsive during a crisis. - You want to own the story. The message should come from the top , spread the message far and wide, apologise the way a real person would, honestly be concerned about the fate of your customers. #### **Speed changes everything.** - Getting back to people as quickly as possible is probably the most important thing you can do in customer service. You can easily diffuse a bad situation and turn it into a good one if you are speedy. - People are now used to waiting , being put on hold so you can stand out and make people happy by responding fast. This is especially true if your response is personal. - Even if you don't have a perfect answer saying “let me research it and let me get back to you” can work wonders. #### **How to say you're sorry.** - You may not have a great way of saying sorry but there are plenty of terrible ways. - One of the worst ways is the non apology apology which is an apology but does not accept blame. “we are sorry this upset you”. Whatever - A good apology accepts responsibility and has no conditional “if” phrase attached. It shows people that the buck stops with you which is why an “I” apology is much stronger than a “We” apology. - Think how you would feel if you were on the other end of the apology. There is no magic apology to win back trust. Keep in mind that everything you do before things went wrong counts for much more than the apology. If you already have a rapport with your customers they are more likely to cut you some slack. #### **Put everyone on the front lines.** - A lot of companies have a split of customer facing and non customer facing employees. This means that the people at the back of house never get to directly hear what the customers are telling them. This can lead to confusion. - The more people you have between your customers words and the people doing the work the more likely it is that the message will get distorted. - Everyone on your team should be connected to customers, it doesn't have to be everyday but at least a few times a year. Do not protect people from feedback. #### **Take a deep breath.** - After you change anything in a service or product knee jerk reactions will pour in. People will always be shocked at changes and react straight away but resist the urge to panic and make quick changes in response to this criticism. - Passions will flare in the beginning but ride it out and see if things settle . Humans are creatures of habit and see change as a negative but have often made up their minds before even giving the new way a try. - Remember that negative reactions will always be louder than positive ones. Still let them know you are listening and are aware of what they are saying but let things go and see if people change and adjust and end up liking the new way. ### CULTURE #### **You don't create a culture.** - A [culture is a by product of consistent behaviour](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-champions-team-culture/ "Greg Nelson on Coaching MMA Champions, Positive Culture and Conquering Cancer"). It will just happen. If you encourage trust people will be more trusting and if you treat customers right then treating customers right will become the culture. - You can't force a culture but it will develop overtime. #### **Decisions are temporary.** - Do not make up problems you do not have yet. Its not a problem until it is a real problem. Do not waste time resolving “What if?” problems. As most likely they will never happen anyway. - Besides the decisions you make today don't need to last forever. When circumstances change your decisions can change. - Do not waste time , energy or shoot down ideas because of problems that may never happen. #### **Skip the rock stars.** - Too many companies post adds looking for ninjas or rock stars. Instead of looking to get a room full of rock stars think about the room instead and how you can make it an environment that encourages everyone to do great work. - You want to create an environment that gets the full potential out of everyone in it so they all do great work. - These environments develop out of trust, autonomy and responsibility. Environments that show respect for great work and the people who do it. #### **They're not thirteen.** - If you treat people like children you get children's work. Yet that is how a lot of managers treat their employees. They have them ask for permission , they need to get approval ,and in that culture you will develop non thinkers. - It creates a dynamic which has no trust. If you have to ban employees for doing things that time won't magically convert to great work. You will gain nothing and lose trust. #### **Send people home at 5.** - You don't need more hours of work out of your employees you need better hours. People get the work done in the office because the have lives and somewhere else to be and will find ways to be efficient when they have to . - If you want something done ask the busiest person. You want busy people with a life outside of work and don’t expect work to be someone's entire life. #### **Do not scar on the first cut.** - The natural tendency when something goes wrong the first time is to make a policy straight away. Policies are organisational scar tissue, codified overreactions to situations that are often unlikely to repeat. - This is how bureaucracies are born and sneak up one policy at a time. Don't create a policy because one person did something they are only for situations that come up repeatedly. #### **Sound like you.** - When in business don't try to sound so big with stiff language formal announcements and titles, artificial friendliness and legalese. When you read this stuff it will sound like a robot wrote it instead of you. - The mask of professionalism is a joke yet small companies try to emulate this thinking it makes them sound big when really it makes them sound ridiculous. - A small company's greatest asset is the ability to communicate directly with customers without having to seem like a faceless corporation. - Write to read don't just write to write. Avoid corporate speak and useless jargon just be honest. #### **Four letter words.** - The four letter words you should never use in business are need, must, cant , easy, just, only and fast. - These words create black and white situations but the truth is rarely like that and people will get upset if you misrepresent something. - Very few things need to get done instead try :What do you think of this?” or “How does this sound? Dont make assumptions. - Once these words are said it can be hard to find solutions to problems as you get boxed into a corner by absolutes. #### **ASAP is poison.** - ASAP is always implied so there is no reason to say it. Everyone always wants things done as quick as they can be. If you always use ASAP you mark everything as high priority and when everything is high priority then nothing becomes the high priority . - Do not use this false sense of urgency to create stress and burnout and only use emergency language for real emergencies. ### CONCLUSION #### **Inspiration is perishable.** - Everyone has ideas and ideas are immortal and will last forever. But what doesn't last forever is inspiration. Inspiration always has an expiration date. - If you want to do something you have to do it right away when you are inspired. If you put it on a shelf you may never get the inspiration back to do it again. - Inspiration is a productivity multiplier and a motivator but it won't wait for you . If it grabs you grab it back , ride it and put it to work for you. REWORK Book by Jason Fried & David Heinemeier Hansson Summary ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Steal like an Artist by Austin Kleon Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steal-like-an-artist-by-austin-kleon-summary/) **Published:** July 31, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** # A Summary of the Excellent Book By Austin Kleon, Steal Like An Artist! Table Of Contents 1. [10 Things nobody told you about being creative ](#10-things-nobody-told-you-about-being-creative) 2. [Don’t wait until you know who you are to get started. ](#dont-wait-until-you-know-who-you-are-to-get-started) 3. [Write the book you want to read. ](#write-the-book-you-want-to-read) 4. [Use your hands. ](#use-your-hands) 5. [Side projects and hobbies are important. ](#side-projects-and-hobbies-are-important) 6. [The Secret: Do good work and share it with people. ](#the-secret-do-good-work-and-share-it-with-people) 7. [Geography is no longer our master. ](#geography-is-no-longer-our-master) 8. [Be nice. (The world is a small town.) ](#be-nice-the-world-is-a-small-town) 9. [Be boring (Its the only way to get work done.) ](#be-boring-its-the-only-way-to-get-work-done) 10. [Creativity is Subtraction ](#creativity-is-subtraction) ### **10 Things nobody told you about being creative ![Steal Like an Artist](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Steal_Like_An_Artist-225x300.jpg "Steal_Like_An_Artist › Sonny Brown") - Where do artists ideas come from? The only correct answer is that they steal them. - Taking ideas takes the pressure off having a good or a bad idea. There is only stuff worth stealing and not worth stealing, and everything is up for grabs. - Nothing is original. When people call things original they most likely just do not know the sources that it references or steals from. - Nothing comes from nowhere, and all creative work builds on what has come before it. - Be free of the burden of trying to create something out of nothing and embrace influence. - *“What is originality? Undetected plagiarism.”* - [Ralph Waldo Emerson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Waldo_Emerson "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Waldo_Emerson"). - Every new idea is just a mashup or a remix of one or more previous ideas. - A good example is your genetics; you have a mother and father and their genes mixed, so you have features of both. - You can pick what books you read and what music you listen to, and you are a mashup of what you choose to let into your life. - You are the sum of all your influences. - *“We are shaped and fashioned by what we love,”* - Goethe - Garbage in, garbage out. The artist is a collector, not a hoarder. The artist only carefully selects and collect the things they love. - Your ideas will only be as good as the stuff that surrounds you. - Your job is to collect good ideas. - *“Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic.”* - Jim Jarmusch - *”I don't believe in art. I believe in artist”* - Michael Duchamp. - You cannot digest the entire history of your discipline, instead find one artist in your subject that you love and study everything there is to know about them. Then find who that artists influences were and who they loved and find everything about them. Repeat this as many times as you can. - Create your branch of this tree and see yourself as part of the creative lineage. - The great thing about dead or remote masters is that they can't refuse you as an apprentice, you can learn whatever you want from them and their work. - School yourself. You have to be curious about the world in which we live, look things up and chase down references and go deeper than anyone else. - *“Whether I went to school or not, I would always study,”* - Rza - Always be reading, get lost in stacks and stacks of books, collect books even if you don't plan on reading them right away. Just continue searching. - Save your thefts for later. Carry a notebook and pen with you wherever you go. Get used to pulling it out and jotting down your thoughts and observations.Copy your favorite passages out of books. - Make sure you always have a way of recording inspiration at all times. - Keep a swipe file, a file to keep track of everything you have stolen from others.If you see something worth stealing put it in your swipe file. - *“It is better to take what does not belong to you than to let it lie around neglected”*. - Mark Twain ### **Don’t wait until you know who you are to get started. - Make things and know thyself. If you want to know yourself before you make things, then you would just be sitting around trying to figure things out instead of making things. - You are ready to make stuff already, and this is how you will find out who you are. - You may feel like an imposter, that you are winging it and don’t have any idea what you are doing, Well the truth is nobody has any idea of what they are doing. - Just show up and do your thing every day. - Fake it till you make it. Pretend to be making something until you make something. - Dress for the job you want not the job you have and do the work you wish to be doing. - *“You start out a phony then become real.”* - Glen O Brien. - All the world is a stage, and creative work is a kind of theater. - Start copying. Nobody is born with a style or voice. We learn by copying. Practice not plagiarism. Copying is reverse engineering, taking something apart to see how it works. - “Start copying what you love.” Copy, copy, copy. At the end of the copy, you will find yourself. - We learn to write by copying down the alphabet. - Even the Beatles started as a cover band. - *“Those who do not want to imitate anything, practice nothing”* - Salvador Dali. - Figure out who to copy, and then figure out what to copy. - Copy your heroes who you love are inspired by and who you want to be. - “*You start out by copying your heroes catalog”* - Nick Lowe. - Don't steal from one of your heroes, steal from all of them. If you steal from one, it's plagiarism, but steal from many and its research. - What to copy is a little bit trickier, don't just steal the style, take the thinking behind the style. - You don't want to look like your heroes you wish to see like your heroes. - You want to internalize their way of looking at the world. You do not just wish to mimic the surface of somebody's work without understanding its origin. - Imitation is not flattery. - *“ We want you to take from us. We want you, at first, to steal from use, because you can’t steal. You will take what we give you, and you will find your voice. And that's how you begin. And then one day someone will steal from you.”* - Frances Ford Coppola. - At some point you will have to move from imitating your heroes to emulating them. Emulation is one step further than imitation, breaking through into your own thing. - *“There isn't a move that's a new move”* - Kobe Bryant - Humans are incapable of making perfect copies and these failures will be where you discover your own thing. That is evolution. - Copy your heroes and examine where you fall short. What is in there that is different ? Amplify it and make it your own. - Transform your heroes work into something of your own. This is how you flatter them. - Add something to the world that only you can add. ### **Write the book you want to read. - *“ My interest in making music has been to create something that does not exist that i would like to listen too. I wanted to hear music that had not yet happened, by putting things together that suggested a new thing that did not yet exist.*” - Brian Eno. - We make art because we like art. - We are drawn to certain kinds of work because we are inspired by the people making it. - Write the kind of story you like best and want to read. - Write or record what you would want a sequel to look or sound like. We crave sequels so channel that into something productive. - Draw what you want to see, start the business you want to run, play the music you want to hear, write the books you want to read, build the products you want to use - do the work you want to see done. ### **Use your hands. - *“We don't know where we get our ideas from. What we do know is that we do not get them on laptops.”* - John Cleese - Step away from the screen. Your hands are the original digital devices so use them. - Computers put a barrier between us and the work we are doing , this is why knowledge work is so abstract, you never get to touch what you are making. - Work that only comes from the head isn't any good. You need to find a way to bring your body into your work.. - Our body can tell our brains as much as our brains tell our bodies. - *“I have stared long enough at the glowing flat rectangles of computer screens. Let us give more time for doing things in the real world … plant a plant, walk the dogs, read a real book, go to the opera.”* - Edward Tufte. - The computer is really good for editing your ideas and its really good for getting your ideas ready for publishing out in the world but its not good for generating ideas. - The computer brings out the uptight perfectionist. - If you can set up two workstations, one analog and one digital. On the analog workstation keep out anything electronic, just use pens paper and pencils. Once you start getting ideas then you can move over to your digital workstations. ### **Side projects and hobbies are important. - *“The work you do while you procrastinate is probably the work you should be doing for the rest of your life.”* - Jessica Hische. - Practice productive procrastination. Its the side projects that really take off. Stuff that is just play that is actually the good stuff is where the magic happens. - Have a lot of projects going at once so you can bounce between them. - Take time to be bored. Creative people just need time to sit around and be bored. - If you are out of ideas, wash the dishes, take a long walk.Take the time to mess around. Get lost. Wander. You never know where it will lead. - Dont throw any of yourself away. Keep all your passions in your life. Don't feel like you have to pick or choose. If you live different things spend time with them and let them talk to each other. - Its important to have a hobby that is something creative thats just for you. You just do it to make you happy. - Dont worry about a grand scheme and unified vision for your work, what unifies your work is the fact that you made it. - One day you will look back and it will all make sense. ### **The Secret: Do good work and share it with people. - In the beginning obscurity is good. You want attention only after you are doing really good work. There’s no pressure when you are unkown. You can do what you want. Experiment and do things just for the fun of it. - When you are unknown there is nothing to distract you from getting better, no public image to manage , no huge paycheck on the line, no stockholders or hangers on. - You will never get that freedom back again once people start paying attention. - Enjoy your obscurity while it lasts. Use it. - The not so secret formula. There is only one not so secret formula for becoming known. Do good work and share it with people. - Its a two step process. “do good work” is incredibly hard. There are no shortcuts. Make stuff everyday and accept that it is going to suck for a while. Fail and get better. - Step two “Share it with people” now this is very simple just “Put it on the internet”. - Wonder at something and then invite people to wonder with you. - Wonder at the things nobody else is wondering about. - The more open you are about sharing your passions the closer people will feel to your work. - When you open up your process and invite people in , you learn. - Get on the internet , figure out how to make a website, figure out blogging and social media. find people on the internet who love the same things as you and connect with them Share things with them. - You dont have to share everything. You can show just a little bit of what you are working on , a glimpse of your process, a sketch or a doodle. - Think about what you can share that will be of value to people. Mention a good book you are reading. - “Dont worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.” - Howard Aiken ### **Geography is no longer our master. - Build your own world. You dont have to live anywhere other than the place you are to start connecting with the world you want to be in . - Surround yourself with books and objects that you love, tape things up on the wall. Create your own world. - All you need is a little space and a little time. A place to work and some time to do it If your living situation doesn't allow for that you can find solitude and captivity in the wild. - Carry a book and a pen and a notepad and enjoy any solitude or temporary captivity you have. - Leave Home. Where we choose to live does still have an impact on our work. You have to leave home at least once, you can always come back. - Travel makes the world look new and when the world looks new the brain works harder. - It helps to live around interesting people and not necessarily people who do what you do. - You have to find a place that feeds you, creatively , socially, spiritually and literally. ### **Be nice. (The world is a small town.) - Make friends, ignore enemies. Theres only one reason i'm here: Im here to make friends. - *“Theres only one rule i know of: You’ve got to be kind.”* - Kurt Vonnegut - The best way to vanquish your enemies on the Internet ? Ignore them. The best way to make friends on the internet? Say nice things about them. - Stand next to the talent. You're only going to be as good as the people you surround yourself with. - *"The only* mofos *in my circle are people that* I *can learn from”* - Questlove. - If you ever find that you are the most talented person in the room you need to find another room. - .You are going to see a lot of stupid stuff out there in the world, and you are going to feel the need to correct it. - But anger can be used to create , so if you get angry keep your mouth shut and go do your work. - *“Complain about the way other people make software by making software.”* - Andre Torrez - Write fan letters. If you truly love somebody's work you shouldn't need a response from them. You can write public fan letters and publish them on the internet. - The important thing is to show your appreciation without expecting anything in return and that you get new work out of the appreciation. - Validation is for parking. *“Modern art = i could do that + Yeah, but you didn't”* - Craig Damrauer. - The trouble with creative work: Sometimes by the time people catch on to what's valuable about what you do you are either bored to death with it or dead. - You can't go looking for validation from external sources.Once you put your work into the world, you have no control over the way people will react to it. - Ironically really good work appears to be effortless. People won't see the years of sweat and toil that went into it. - Not everyone will get it and people will misinterpret you. Get comfortable with being misunderstood. Just be too busy doing your work to care. - Keep a praise file. Yes validation is for parking but it is still a tremendous boost when people say nice things about your work. Keep any praise you receive in a separate folder and when the dark days roll around and you need a boost open up the folder and read some of the contents. Then get back to work. Don’t get lost in the past glory. ### **Be boring (Its the only way to get work done.) - *“Be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work”* - Gustave Flaubert. - Take care of yourself. It takes a lot of energy to be creative. You don't have energy to waste on other stuff. - Eat breakfast. Exercise. Go for long walks and [get plenty of sleep](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!"). - Stay out of debt. Learn about money as soon as you can. Its not the money you make but the money you hold onto. - Make yourself a budget and live within your means. Save as much as you can , get the education you need for as cheap as you can get it. - The art of holding on to money is all about saying no to consumer culture. - Keep your day job. Even if you are lucky to make a living off doing what you truly love it will probably take you a while to get to that point. - Freedom from financial stress also means freedom in your art. - *“If you don't take money they can't tell you what to do”* - Bill Cunningham. - Learn things in your job that you can use in your work later. - The worst thing a day job does is take time away from you but it makes up for that by giving you a daily routine in which you can schedule a regular time for your creative pursuits. - Figure out what time you can carve out, what time you can steal and stick to your routine. - Do the work every day no matter what. No Holidays. No Sick Days. Dont Stop. - Get yourself a calendar. Amassing a body of work is about the slow accumulation of little bits of effort over time. - Writing a page each day doesn't seem like much but do it for 365 days and you can fill a novel. - A calendar helps you plan your work, gives you concrete goals and keeps you on track. - Keep a logbook. Just as you need a chart of future events you also need a chart of past events. Its just a little book where you keep a list of the things you did each day. - Its much easier than keeping a diary and the small details will help you remember the big details. - Marry Well.Who you marry is the most important decision you will ever make. It doesn't just mean your life partner it also means who you do business with, who you befriend, who you choose to be around. - A good partner keeps you grounded. ### **Creativity is Subtraction - Choose what to leave out. We have information abundance and overload. Those that will get ahead are the people that figure out what to leave out to they can concentrate on what's really important to them. - The way to get over creative block is to simply place some constraints on yourself. Limitations mean freedom. - Dont make excuses for not working, make things with the time, space and materials you have right now. - *“Telling yourself you have all the time in the world, all the money in the world , all the colors in the palette, anything you want, just kills creativity.”* - Jack White. - *"What we respond to in any work of art is the artist's struggle against his or her limitations”* - Saul Steinberg. - Its often what the artist chooses to leave out that makes the art interesting. - You must [embrace limitations](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brandon-mccaghren-interview-10th-planet/ "Brandon Mccaghren on Restrictions & Wilderness in 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu") and keep moving. - Creativity isn't just the things we choose to put in its the things we choose to leave out. Choose Wisely and have fun. *“Art is theft”* - Pablo Picasso *“Immature poets imitate, mature poets steal, bad poets deface what they take and good poets make it into something better or at least something different. The good poet wields his theft into a whole of feeling that is unique, utterly different from which it was born.”* - T.S. Elliot *“The only art I'll ever study is stuff I can steal from”* - David Bowie.*“* *There is nothing new under the sun.” -* Ecclesiastes 1:9 *“Everything that needs to be said has already been said but since no one was listening to everything it must be said again”* - Andre Gide ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Creativity --- ### [The Bulldog Choke in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-bulldog-choke-in-mma/) **Published:** March 8, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![The Bulldog Choke](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bulldog_choke-1024x576.jpg "The Bulldog Choke › Sonny Brown")Lets to take a look at the **Bulldog choke**. It's a rare submission first used in the UFC back at UFC 31 when Carlos Newton submitted Pat Miletich. Historically the Bulldog choke has been favoured by [catch-as-catch-can](https://www.sonnybrown.net/underground-history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/ "The Underground History Of Catch Wrestling With Jake Shannon") wrestlers because it forgoes the safety of securing a solid back position and instead directly attacks the head for the submission. So instead of securing back hooks for a dominant position when going for the Bulldog choke, you will attack the head and bring the body with you. The Bulldog choke essentially becomes a **modified headlock** or a headlock mixed with a rear-naked choke. In Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, a headlock is seen as an amateur or beginner move as it gives up an easy pathway to the back for the person being attacked. But if you get your hand underneath the chin and can sit your feet and hips out in front of the head of your opponent, it becomes challenging to execute that escape quickly. Instead, you can use your entire body weight on the head neck and draw your opponent to choke them and crank their neck. The Bulldog choke will most commonly be taught from the side back or turtle position, and it becomes a good option when the opponent is so intent on defending one side of their neck from the rear-naked choke that you can come in on the other side with the Bulldog. But an opportunity for a bulldog choke can come up in many scramble situations where enough time has been had to collect the neck but not enough time to establish back hooks. With that being said, the Bulldog choke is still an uncommon submission to see in high-level MMA. However, at UFC 181, it was scored twice in one night by Raquel Pennington and Urijah Faber. They both finished their opponents with Bulldog chokes next to the fence, and the fact that it has been proven to work at that high level before means it may be a technique you want to keep in your arsenal for the future. The Bulldog Choke in MMA - Analysis & Study#### Bulldog Choke **References** Olavarria, P. (2014). The Bulldog Choke: Catch Wrestling Renaissance \| FIGHTLAND. Retrieved from <http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-bulldog-choke-catch-wrestling-renaissance> Zahar, C. (2016). Is The Bulldog Choke Part Of Your Jiu-Jitsu Arsenal?. Retrieved from <https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/bulldog-choke-part-jiu-jitsu-arsenal/> Andrew Lalnunmawia Vs Chandan Yadav SFL CONTENDERS: [https://youtu.be/\_nWeNthbAI0](https://youtu.be/_nWeNthbAI0) BAMMA 29: Terry Brazier vs Walter Gahadza: <https://youtu.be/EGS2y9llGBI> Ben Jones - Bulldog Choke: <https://youtu.be/14yYfGX7Jsc> Bulldog Choke Instructional from Phuket Top Team: <https://youtu.be/dUghLQe12cE> Catch Wrestling: Attacking the Turtle w/Crossface Neck Crank & Bulldog Choke: Legit Pro Wrestling: <https://youtu.be/vs8wPYjRqDk> Erik Paulson teaching Catch as catch can wrestling: <https://youtu.be/fPIkXpcSNeY> Fight Replay Tim Elliott vs Charlie Alaniz: <https://youtu.be/gqpyHzqJ9yU> Mike Murphy vs Kolby Howell: <https://youtu.be/xcHYrylAVDE> No-Gi Choke Bulldog Choke with Coach Robert Follis: https://youtu.be/TfJl3S2FIh0 RUBICON II Josh Huber vs Manuel Gallardo: <https://youtu.be/GSTygO5XDQE> ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Analysis --- ### [The origin of the phrase "As Happy as Larry" comes from prizefighting.](https://www.sonnybrown.net/origin-of-phrase-happy-as-larry-prizefighting/) **Published:** July 22, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![As Happy as Larry](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/happy_as_larry-1-1024x576.jpg "As Happy as Larry › Sonny Brown")The Australian colloquialism where your jovial mood is suggested to be "**As Happy as Larry**" finds its etymological roots in the early bare-knuckle **pugilism** of a Sydney **prizefighter** and undefeated middleweight boxing champion at the turn of the 19th century. The Larry in the idiom is **Laurence 'Larry' Foley** (1849-1917), who was born in Bathurst and would gain recognition as the "Father of Australian Boxing". He spent his formative years in [Wollongong ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/comfort-when-uncomfortable-alexander-volkanovski-interview/ "Crafting Comfort When Uncomfortable & Adapting for Victory With Alexander Volkanovski")where he served as a Roman Catholic priest and had an expectation of joining the priesthood but instead moved to Sydney where he would later participate in a Roman Catholic street fighting gang that feuded with a rival Protestant group. Larry Foley would become the unofficial bare-knuckle champion of Sydney by beating Sandy Ross the leader of the rival gang in a contest that lasted 71 rounds and went for over 2 hours and took place at Como in South Sydney. The bout which leads to the birth of the phrase "**As Happy as Larry**" was against the Australian boxing champion Abe Hicken. The contest lasted 16 rounds with the first round of the match lasting for 23 minutes because in 1879 rounds lasted as long as it took for one man to achieve a knockdown. Larry Foley claimed the victory and won £600 which made him a jubilant man and it was apparently reported in the newspapers that the crowd was said to be just as "Happy as Larry" leading to the creation of the phrase that is still used to this day. Larry Foley retired from boxing at age 32 and became a publican running the White Horse hotel located on George St in [Sydney](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching"). He opened a boxing academy in the back of the pub called the "**Iron Pot**" where he trained many boxers and which also held many boxing contests. He died of heart disease in 1917 and is buried in Waverly Cemetery. In the above photo, we see a picture of Larry in his boxing stance and a picture of his White Horse hotel. ![Larry Foley Hotel](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/happy_as_larry_foley.jpg "happy_as_larry_foley › Sonny Brown") #### As Happy As Larry **References:** - <https://www.theroar.com.au/2011/07/28/how-aussie-boxer-larry-foley-gave-rise-to-a-timeless-saying/> - <https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/archived/booksandarts/as-happy-as-larry-why-do-we-say-it/7633578> ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [A Beginners Guide to Lucid Dreaming for Martial Artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lucid-dreaming-for-martial-artists/) **Published:** January 4, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Lucid Dreaming for Martial Artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lucid_dreaming_martial_arts-1024x576.jpg "Lucid Dreaming for Martial Artists › Sonny Brown")Sleeping and Dreaming is an important part of anyone's life. Still, [sleep for martial artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-in-and-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!") is a critical part of the recovery process, and [Lucid Dreaming](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36190-w "https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-36190-w") could make the process even more important. Dreams have been important in numerous world cultures throughout history and are often connected with aspects of a person's soul or ancestors. But western society will often dismiss them as irrelevant to your life experience and best ignored except for Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung who developed theories of interpreting dreams believing they were accessing the unconscious or subconscious mind. Interestingly many great western thinkers have been influenced by their dreams, including Albert Einstein, who had a dream that helped create his Theory of Relativity and Rene Descartes, who had a series of dreams that helped develop the scientific method. Many more examples of dream-inspired creation exist that suggest the content of dreams are valuable and should not be so easily dismissed as nonsense. The following article will discuss the process of Lucid dreaming, which is when you become conscious within your dream and feel as if you are awake while in the dream world. Once you are lucid dreaming, it enables you to take a measure of control over the scenario and your actions within the dream. Building lucid dreaming is similar to building a meditation practice because it requires daily practice to get the full benefits. Table Of Contents 1. [Recalling Your Dreams](#recalling-your-dreams) 2. [The Lucid Dreaming Mindset](#the-lucid-dreaming-mindset) 3. [Dream Journalling](#dream-journalling) 4. [Dream Incubation](#dream-incubation) 5. [The Hypnogogic State](#the-hypnogogic-state) 6. [Mnemonic-Induced Lucid Dreaming](#mnemonic-induced-lucid-dreaming) 7. [Wake-Induced Lucid Dreaming](#wake-induced-lucid-dreaming) 8. [Wake Back To Bed Lucid Dreaming](#wake-back-to-bed-lucid-dreaming) 9. [Consistent Practice and Dream Yoga](#consistent-practice-and-dream-yoga) ### Recalling Your Dreams The first part of lucid dreaming will be developing the ability to recall your dreams in the morning; the second will be mastering the hypnagogic state, the third will be the capacity to set the content of your dreams and finally will be the ability to become lucid and actively control the content of your dreams. As lucid dreaming requires practice and the right lifestyle conditions, not everyone will achieve lucidity. Still, at the very least, the ability to recall your dreams is a great life skill to work on independently of lucid dreaming. Being able to lucid dream is a difficult skill to master, and if you are going to attempt it, please be aware that it will require a lot of willpower, perseverance and discipline. Although you may not be able to lucid dream every night, you should be able to recall your dreams, leading to having more vivid dreams overall. While it is also possible to have a lucid dream spontaneously, you will get other mental benefits from developing this nighttime meditation practice which should be your goal even in the absence of lucid dreams. ### The Lucid Dreaming Mindset ![Lucid Dreaming](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/secretofluciddreaming-300x249.jpg "Lucid Dreaming › Sonny Brown") What dreams are from a scientific perspective is inconsequential to the practice of lucid dreaming, as you will still get the benefits of the skill as long as you continue to practice the nighttime meditation techniques. But it is important to keep a healthy scepticism about the content of your dreams and never get overwhelmed by the results by attaching them with a rigid meaning. Approach lucid dreaming with an attitude of playful experimentation, do not take the content of them too seriously as it doesn't mean it's a prediction of a future event. Keep a scientific mind and record them for observation and comment, examine the results while maintaining a perspective of all the other factors in your waking life. Lucid dreaming is not an escape from reality but rather practice to enhance your experience of reality so you can become a more well-rounded person in your waking life. ### Dream Journalling The first step on the pathway to lucid dreaming is developing the ability to recall your dreams in the morning after you wake up. How you build this capacity will depend on your dedication to making it the first thing you attempt to do every morning. The simplest way is to get a blank notebook that you leave next to your bed every night when you go to sleep; then, you immediately begin to journal any recollections you have of your dreams when you wake in. Dream journaling must be the first thing you do when you wake up as you start to forget the content of your dreams the longer you wait and the more you get distracted with thoughts about your upcoming day. Avoiding distractions or interruptions to your journaling is critical, which is why it is not recommended to journal into a phone or laptop, as it is far too easy to get distracted while using those devices. Even if you find yourself unable to recall your dream when you wake up, you should still grab your journal and start writing as you may find that once you write, you remember small fragments of your dream. Dream journaling every morning will begin to help you gather your thoughts in daily life or, at the bare minimum, can inspire you for the rest of your day. Keep up the habit of dream journaling for at least 1-3 months and attempt to improve on the level of detail that you can recall in your dreams. Consider the time you spend doing this to build your mental dream recall muscle; it will start small, but with persistence, it will get larger and better developed. ### Dream Incubation After a few months of keeping a consistent dream journal and improving your ability to recall dreams, you can now begin the process of formulating dream incubation which is where you proactively choose what the content of your dreams will be about. The first method of dream incubation is to repeat an affirmation that you will dream about your desired topic, continuously repeat this to yourself as you are falling asleep similar to how you may have heard of people counting sheep as a way to help you fall asleep or a mantra used in meditation. The second method is to use visualisations of your chosen dream subject and visualise in as vivid detail as possible yourself in your dream; work on refining your visualisations by continuously increasing the level of detail that you can imagine. The third method is to use a physical representation of your dreams and place it on your bedside table or under your pillow always to remind you of your desired dream and make it a part of your sleep routine. An example of this physical representation may be to use a feather to tell you that you want to experience a dream where you are flying or a seashell to visit a tropical island. You may want to combine these techniques to see what works best for you and experiment with them over multiple weeks to find one that works best for you. ### The Hypnogogic State Hypnagogia is when you are consciously experiencing the twilight zone between sleeping and waking or sometimes during heavy meditation. Consider this hypnogogic state as the prelude to the lucid dreaming state, become aware of it and begin to notice it. During hypnagogia is a superb time to practice your dream incubation techniques. Salvador Dali, the artist and Thomas Edison, the scientist, both used similar methods to engineer the hypnagogic state to be employed as a source of inspiration and insight. Both men would rest in a chair while holding a metal object loosely in their hand that was positioned over another metal object so that when they would begin to fall asleep, the metal object would drop and make a loud enough noise to wake them from their nap. The napping technique would allow them to experience the hypnagogic state, and both men would immediately write down whatever thoughts or insights they had received. ![Lucid dreaming for martial artists illustration](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/lucid_dreaming_martial_artist-1024x576.jpg "lucid_dreaming_martial_artist › Sonny Brown")### Mnemonic-Induced Lucid Dreaming MILD is a technique of continually testing your reality during your waking day to check if you are dreaming or not. The concept of this discipline is that if you consciously do this repeatedly, it will become an unconscious habit that you eventually will attempt to perform during a dream and will notice that you are dreaming. As it is reliant on it becoming a habit, you will need to be disciplined in using this practice every day; for instance, you could set a watch to beep every hour, and when it beeps, you ask yourself, "Am I dreaming?". Other examples are asking yourself if you are dreaming every time you see the back of your hands or walk through a doorway. Another method is to check your watch once and recheck it soon after, and the times are likely going to vary wildly between each check of the watch if you are dreaming. You can also do more than ask yourself if you are dreaming and instead do a physical action to check. A physical reality check is where the phrase "Pinch me; I must be dreaming" actually has a practical application to achieve a lucid dreaming state as the pinch in a dream is unlikely to feel like a pinch. Another physical action is to make a little jump when you check if you are dreaming and if you are dreaming, you will likely float or not land as you would under the influence of gravity. The techniques of MILD may take a month or two months, but you want to make it such a habit that you will try to do it in a dream. You can also place signs around your house/car that asks the question if you are dreaming. ### Wake-Induced Lucid Dreaming WILD is a technique used to enter a lucid dreaming state by remaining conscious through the hypnogogic state. WILD substantially eliminates the need to perform the reality checks employed in the MILD technique as your body goes to sleep, but your mind slips directly into lucid dreaming. Before you go to sleep, preparation is required to perform this procedure. It should involve avoiding all electronic devices and getting yourself into a relaxed and meditative state before going to bed. Once you are in bed, relax all your muscles and set a rhythm of controlled deep breathing. Once you are completely relaxed, you should begin visualising, starting with shapes, see if you can make the shapes move, and eventually imagining an entire scenario. After you have visualised a scenario, start to imagine your body lifting itself off the bed and place it into the scene you have created. With practice, you will be able to perform these visualisations throughout the hypnogogic state. Eventually, it will become a lucid dream when you put yourself into the dreamscape you have created. ### Wake Back To Bed Lucid Dreaming WBTB is a method that involves waking yourself up in the middle of the night for a brief amount of time and then falling back to sleep. The short time spent awake can help you recall your dreams better and allow you to slip into a lucid dream. To practice, the WBTB method, set your alarm clock for 6 hours after you go to sleep, and when your alarm clock goes off, get out of bed and wake yourself up completely. You want to keep yourself awake for 20 minutes; you could use this time to read over your dream journal to get you thinking about your dreams and the lucid dreaming experience. After 20 - 30 minutes of being awake, lay back down in bed and practice dream visualisations while you drift off to sleep. The theory behind this practice is that when you wake up, it should be when you are experiencing REM sleep; this leads to you being conscious during your REM sleep cycle. When you go back to bed, you should immediately drift into REM sleep from your conscious state, making a lucid dream easier to attain. ### Consistent Practice and Dream Yoga Once you have a foundation of dream journaling and are practising dream incubation, engineering the hypnogogic state and the lucid dream induction techniques, all that is left is to practice consistently over many months and even years. It may take a long time to experience a lucid dream, and even when you do, it may not be achievable every night, although some practitioners do claim this is possible. If you do become a skilled lucid dreamer, then you may wish to look into the practice of Tibetan Dream Yoga which is an esoteric practice that involves visualising Tibetan letters and goddesses while sleeping in the position of the Buddha. Dream YogaThis is for advanced meditators and was historically only to be done in a monastic setting where they would continue their practice while sleeping. Dream yoga is a more advanced practice, but once you have a foundation of lucid dreaming, it is certainly worth exploring. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Creativity --- ### [What Does "Leave Your Ego at the Door" Mean?](https://www.sonnybrown.net/what-does-leave-your-ego-at-the-door-mean/) **Published:** August 22, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Leave your ego at the doo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/leave_ego_at_door-1024x576.jpg "Leave your ego at the doo › Sonny Brown")"**Leave your ego at the door**" is a common phrase you will see written on the walls of martial arts gyms everywhere. But it has always amused me because it would be almost impossible to do unless everyone had an **existential crisis** as they walked through the door. But more than merely being helpful, considerate and courteous to people, I think it might be useful to interpret it as not being fearful of receiving feedback or experiencing [failure](https://www.sonnybrown.net/efficiency-in-learning-techniques-making-decisions-and-mental-models-for-bjj-with-steve-kwan/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") in the learning process. To simplify the process, we can experience failure and either laugh or cry about it. You probably have to do both at some points, and only ever having one reaction would possibly lead to negative consequences. Maybe accepting it as just the way things are and an unremarkable, expected, and natural part of the process seems to be the healthiest attitude. You might feel awkward, uncomfortable and embarrassed, but no need to make it worse by thinking that those feelings would be rare. Of course, you will find these new movements and skills difficult at first. Unless you started training as a child, we all come to martial arts at a stage of life when we are probably skilled in different areas, at the very least whatever you do for a profession would give you skills in one area that most people in the same room do not possess. Everyone would likely struggle if they stepped into your day to day activities and had to learn on the job. It's the expected outcome, predictable and we shouldn't let it surprise us, throw us off or discourage us from persisting. Understanding that process could then lead to the more common interpretation of the saying of basically not being arrogant or a jerk. Then maybe becoming less arrogant and more understanding of other peoples struggles and your own could then, in turn, make you a more peaceful person? ### Using Jiu-Jitsu To Leave Your Ego At The Door? If you want to try that out, then martial arts might be an excellent vehicle to do so. Possibly because on some level, fighting or physical struggle has a deeper meaning with a long history in humans nature than other modern skills you could learn. Im not doubting that you could get the same lessons through other professions, but martial arts does seem to have some exceptional qualities to it if that might be what you are looking to achieve in regards to loss of [ego](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept"). Or maybe im overthinking it (more than likely) and simply put, just don't be a goose and injure anyone in the mat by going too hard. Peace, Love & Raging Waters, [Sonny Brown](http://www.instagram.com/sonnybrownbreakdown "http://www.instagram.com/sonnybrownbreakdown") ![Leave Your Ego At The Door](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/leaveyouregoatthedoor-1024x1024.jpg "old grunge and marked parchment with ornamental design › Sonny Brown") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [The Book of Five Rings By Miyamoto Musashi - Notes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/notes-book-of-five-rings-miyamoto-musashi/) **Published:** December 6, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Book Of Five Rings](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bok_five_rings_musashi-1024x576.jpg "book_five_rings_musashi › Sonny Brown")Below is a brief Book Of Five Rings Summary written by the legendary swordsman, Miyamoto Musashi. ## The Book of Five Rings Summary ### **The Earth Scroll** - · Martial arts are the warriors way of life. - · The martial way of life practiced by warriors is based on excelling others in anything and everything. - · The exact science of martial arts means practising, and the in such a way that they will be useful at any time and teaching them in such a way that they will be helpful in all things. - · Efficiency and smooth progress, prudence in all matters, The body, does not drag the mind real courage, understanding different levels of morale, instilling confidence and the mind does not pull the body what can and cannot be reasonably expected. - · An essential habit is to have sharp tools and keep them well maintained. It is up to you to use them masterfully. Even when doing menial tasks. - · When you have developed practical knowledge of all the skills of the craft you can eventually you can become a master. - · The large scale is easy to see. The small-scale is hard to see. To be specific, it is impossible to reverse the direction of a large group of people all at once while the small scale is hard to know because in the case of an individual there is just one will involve and changes can be made quickly. - · Practice daily to attain familiarity, treating them as ordinary affairs, so the mind remains unchanged. - · Unless you understand others you can hardly accomplish your self-understanding. - · If you do not pursue an absolute path to its consummation in the mind then a little bit of crookedness in the spirit will later turn into a major war. - · No warrior should be willing to die with his swords at his side without having made use of all his tools. - · As human beings, it is essential for each of us to cultivate and polish our path. - · You should not have any special fondness for a particular skill or tool. Too much is the same as not enough. [Pragmatic thinking](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-purpose-of-pragmatism-persuasion-jiu-jitsu-john-danaher-with-robert-degle/ "The Purpose of Pragmatism, Persuasion, Jiu Jitsu & John Danaher with Robert Degle"). ### **On Rhythm in martial arts:** ![Miyamoto Musashi -  The Book of Five Rings Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/musashiwhite-300x248.jpg "Miyamoto Musashi - The Book of Five Rings › Sonny Brown")Miyamoto Musashi The Book of Five Rings - · Rhythm is something that exists in everything. - · In all arts and sciences rhythm is not to be ignored. - · There is an even rhythm in being empty. - · There are rhythms of rising to an office and stepping down, of fulfilment and disappointment or becoming rich and losing one’s fortune. - · Harmony and disharmony in rhythm occur in every walk of life. - · It is impossible to distinguish carefully between the rhythms of flourishing and the rhythms of decline in every single thing. - · The rhythms of the martial arts are varied. - · First know the right pace and understand the wrong rhythm. And discern the opponent’s rhythms from among the great and small and slow and fast rhythms. - · Know the rhythms of spatial relations and know the rhythms of reversals. - · These matters are specialities of material science. - · Unless you understand these rhythms of reversal your martial artistry will not be reliable. - · The way to win in battle is to know the rhythms of particular opponents and use beats that your opponents do not expect, providing formless rhythms from rhythms of wisdom. - · Be diligent, practice daily and night, the mind is naturally broadened. ### **Rules for learning the art.** 1. Think of what is right and genuine. 2. Practice and cultivate the science. 3. Become acquainted with the arts. 4. Know the principles of the crafts. 5. Understand the harm and benefit in everything. 6. Learn to see everything accurately. 7. Become aware of what is not obvious 8. Be careful even in small matters. 9. Do not do anything useless. - · The science of martial arts should be practised with such thoughts in mind. - · You can hardly become a master unless you see the immediate in a broad context. - · Keep martial arts in your mind and work diligently in a straight forward manner. Then you can win with your hands; your eyes can also defeat people by seeing with your eyes. - · Furthermore when you refine practice to the point where you attain freedom of your whole body then you can overcome people using your body. And since your mind is trained in this science you can also defeat people using your mind. When you reach this point how could you be defeated by others? - · In whatever field of endeavour knowledge of how to avoid losing to others, how to help oneself and hoe to enhance standard honour is part of military science. ### **The Water Scroll - · The science of martial arts is not just a matter of reading these writings. Taking what is written here personally, do not think you are reading or learning and do not make up any imitations. Identify with them continually and work on them carefully. The field is king! ### **The State of Mind in Martial Arts** - · The state of mind should remain as normal. Let there be no change at all - with the mind open and direct, neither tense nor lax, concentrating the mind so that there is no imbalance, calmly relax your thoughts and savour this moment of ease thoroughly so that relaxation does not stop its relaxation for even an instant. - · Even when still your mind is not still, even when hurried your mind is not hurried. The mind is not dragged by the body, the body is not pulled by the mind. - Pay attention to the mind, not the body. - · Let there be neither insufficiency nor excess in your mind. - · Even if superficially weak hearted be inwardly strong hearted and do not let others see into your mind. - · It is essential for those who are physically small to know what it is like to be large and for those who are physically large to know what it is like to be small. It is essential to keep you mind free of subjective bias. - · Let your inner mind be unclouded and open, placing your intellect on a broad plane. - · It is essential to polish the brain and mind diligently. - · Once you have sharpened your understanding to the point where you can tell whatever is good or bad. When you are experienced in various fields and are incapable of being fooled at all by people of the world, then your mind will become imbued with the knowledge of the art of war. It is imperative to master the principles of the art of war and learn to be unworried even in the heat of battle. ### **Physical bearing in Martial Arts** - · Your face should not be tilted. - · Do not wrinkle your forehead but make a furrow between your brow. - · Keep your eyes unmoving and try not to blink. - · Narrow your eyes slightly. - · The idea is to keep a serene expression on your face, nose straight, chin slightly forward. - · Focus strength in the nape. - · Generally speaking it is essential to make your ordinary bearing the bearing you use in martial arts and make the bearing you use in martial arts your normal bearing. ### **Focus of the eyes in Martial Arts** - · The eyes are to focus in such a way as to maximise the range and breadth of vision. - · Observation and perception are two separate things, the observing eye is stronger, the perceiving eye is weaker. - · A speciality of martial arts is to see that which is far away closely and that which is nearby from a distance. - · In martial arts, it is important to be aware of the opponents swords yet not look at the enemy’s swords at all. This takes work! - · Find the state where your eye focus does not change no matter what happens. ### **Gripping the long sword** - · Grip neither tightly or loosely. - · There should be no slackness in hand. - · Let there be no change in the grip even when slashing opponents. - · Your grip when cutting slashing opponents. - · Your grip when cutting to test something and your grip when slashing in combat should be no different. - · Fixating and binding are to be avoided. Fixation is the way to death; Fluidity is the way of life! ### **On Footwork** - · Flighty steps, unsteady steps and stomping steps are to be avoided. - · Complimentary stepping is essential. - · Do not step with one foot alone. ### **Five kinds of guard** - · Whatever guard you adopt do not think of it as being on guard. Think of it as the act of killing. - · What is important in this path is to realise that the consummate guard is the middle position. ### **The way of the long sword** - · Even when wielding the sword with two fingers you know just how to do it and can swing it quickly. - · The idea is to swing the sword calmly so that it is easy to do. - · Perfect the use of the longsword, sensing the minds of opponents, using various rhythms gaining victory in any way. ### **Having a position without having a position** - · Even though you may catch, hit or block, or tie up and obstruct these are all opportunities for cutting the opponent down. - · It is crucial to think of everything as an opportunity to kill. - · Fixation is dangerous. ### **Striking down an opponent in a single beat** - · Finding a position where you can reach an enemy, realising when the opponent has not yet determined what to do, you strike directly as fast as possible, without moving or fixing your attention. ### **The rhythm of the second spring** - · This is when you are about to hit and the opponent quickly pulls back or parries. You feint a blow and then strike the opponent as he relaxes after tensing. ### **Striking without thought and form** - · When your opponent is going to strike, and you are also going to strike, your body is on the offensive and your mind is also on the offensive, your hands come spontaneously from space, striking with added speed and force. ### **The flowing water stroke** - · When going toe to toe and an opponent tries to pull away quickly you become expansive in body and mind and swing your sword in an utterly relaxed manner as if there were some hesitation and strike with a large, powerful stroke. ### **Striking and hitting** - · Striking is a stroke you employ and make a deliberate and certain strike. Even if you hit an opponent and he dies on the spot this is a hit. A strike is when you consciously and deliberately strike the blows you intended to hit. TO hit is to "feel out" for a powerful strike. ### **Stabbing the Face** - · When you have the intention of stabbing your opponent in the face he will try to get both his face and his body out-of-the-way. When you can get your opponent to shrink away there are various advantages of which you can avail yourself to win. ### BOOK OF FIVE RINGS **Epilogue** - · No matter how many opponents you beat, as long as you do anything in contravention of training then it cannot be a correct path. When this principle comes to mind, you should understand how to overcome even dozens of opponents all by yourself. ### **The Fire Scroll - · In the course of practising how to kill opponents, little sissy things never occurred to me. When on is in full combat gear one does not think of small things. - · After training and refining day and night with he determination to eventually consummate it, after having perfected it, one gaining an individual freedom, spontaneously attains wonders and is endowed with incredible powers of penetration. ### **The Physical Situation** - · To look down on the enemy understand that you should always take the highest ground, indoors the seat of honour is the high ground. ### **Three pre-emption** - · When you attack with your initiative "Striking from a state of suspension. Steel your mind to the utmost, accelerate your pace a bit and make a violent attack as soon as your opponent rears. - · Pre-empt an enemy making an attack on you, pre-emption from a state of waiting. When an opponent attacks and you aggressively meet his attack, the moment you sense a change in his rhythm you can win. - · When you and your opponent attack simultaneously, "Pre-emption" in a state of mutual confrontation. When an opponent attacks swiftly you attack calmly yet powerfully, tighten your being to absolute resolve, when your opponent slacks, over come him. ### **Holding down the Pillow** - · When you manoeuvre opponents around freely by whatever means you may. - · When your opponent evinces any sign of intending to make a move you perceive it before he acts. - · Stop an opponent at the initial outset, not letting him follow through. - Let an opponent go ahead and do anything that is useless while preventing him from doing anything useful. - · Thwart your opponent’s very first impulse to try something thus foiling everything. ### **Crossing a Ford** - · Sense the state of opponents, aware of your mastery, you cross the ford using appropriate principles, put the adversary in a weak position and get the jump yourself, then you will quickly prevail. ### The Book of Five Rings Summary [Further Reading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ### [Learning How to Learn - Course Notes and Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-how-to-learn-summary-notes/) **Published:** April 9, 2016 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ## **Focused vs. Diffused mode.** **A Learning How To Learn Summary.** - Our brain has two primary modes of learning. Focused and Diffused mode. - Focused mode moves through your brains neurological network as if it is following a familiar path. It can move step by step through your mind till you learn the new information. - Diffused mode runs through your brain in a more erratic motion. Diffused mode operates as if you need to draw upon many different parts of your brain and existing knowledge to help you understand the new insights. - Think of focused mode as like a spotlight with a single sharp focus of light and diffused mode as a floodlight that covers a much larger area. - Salvadore Dali had a creative output of surrealist art and talked about his method for thinking about what to paint. He would lie on a chair with a key in his hand and gently start drifting off to [sleep](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ian-dunican-combat-sports-athletes-sleep-in-and-win/ "Ian Dunican on How Combat Sports Athletes Can Sleep in and Win!") while thinking about his desired topic. As he would fall asleep, he would drop the key on the ground, and the noise would wake him. He would then get up and take his gathered thoughts and go paint. This is often described as a [hypnogogic nap](http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/02/18/hypnagogic-nap/ "http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/02/18/hypnagogic-nap/"). - The routine Dali practiced was him going from a diffused mode of thinking until he would go and paint at which point he would become focused. - Thomas Edison would have a creative output of many rational inventions, but he also spoke about using a similar technique. He would instead hold onto ball bearings. The process was the same for him as he would gather knowledge in a diffused mode then wake and act on it in a focused manner. - You do have to build a neural scaffold to gather new knowledge and grow your capability to learn. Think of it as similar to weightlifting where you will require daily practice while slowly increasing the weight to build up your mental muscles. ## **The Brain** ![Learning How To Learn Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/learninghowtolearn-1-300x294.jpg "Learning How To Learn Summary › Sonny Brown") - The brain is the most complex system in the known universe. With far more capability of the worlds fastest computers. But we are not conscious of the way the brain works with most of the heavy lifting taking place in the subconscious. Your brain is active even when resting. - An old view of the brain suggested that the patterns of synapses would not change much once the brain matured. But we now know that new synapses can always be formed, and others are lost. - Synapses are the 20th the size of a human hair. - New synapses formare formed when you sleep, so you wake up with a different brain than when you went to sleep. "Sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleeve of care, The death of each day's life, sore labour's bath, Balm of hurt minds, great nature's second course, Chief nourisher in life's feast," - Shakespeare - Practice will help strengthen neural connections in the process of learning. - Math and science use symbols that have no emotion attached to them and are not analogous to anything in nature so they will need to be practiced more. - A thought pattern is when neurons become linked through repeated use. The more abstract the ideas are, the more, you will need to repeat them through practice. Practice makes permanent! - When you first understand something, a faint neural pattern is created. But as you practice further you will deepen a neural model. - When you are learning, you want to study something intensely and focused and then take a break. During the break, your brain will be in a diffused mode, and your "neural mortar will be able to dry". Similar to physical exercise the growth takes place during the rest periods. - Scientists believe we have two major memory systems, Long-term memory, and Working Memory, you can bring long-term memories into your working memory so you can think about it. - Working memory is the part of memory that controls what you are immediately working on and processing in your mind. - Researchers now widely believe working memory only holds four chunks of information. We automatically group information into chunks, so it seems larger that it is. Working memory can be considered like a blackboard. - This is why your may repeat a memory to help remember it to stop other items invading the four chunks you have available. - Long term memorys are more like a warehouse and are stored in different areas of the brain. The long term memory has room for billions of items. - Long term memory is important because it is where you store new techniques you are learning. Everything you learn will first be entered into your working memory and to transfer it to your long-term memory will take time and effort. - You can make the transfer with a technique called "Space repetition," this method involves repeating what you are trying to retain but spacing it out over several days. - Research has shown that trying to learn something by repeating it several times in an evening it will not be nearly as efficient as doing it less time but over multiple days. This is the same function as "letting your neural mortar dry". - Simply being awake creates toxic products in your brain, when you sleep your brain cells shrink and decrease the space between your brain cells that allows fluid to flow past and wash these toxins clean. Sleep helps you keep your mind clean and healthy. - Sleep helps you think clearly, getting too little sleep makes you do worse on tests and perform poorly and sleep deprivation over a long time causes many health issues. - Sleep is essential to the memory and learning process. During sleep your brain tidy up the ideas and concepts, you are learning and erases the less important parts of memory you are trying to remember. - Sleep helps reinforce the neural patterns that you are working to develop. It has also been shown to help with deeper problem solving. This diffused mode of problem solving has to be activated by doing focused style learning first. - This process allows your brain to go over tougher aspects and talk to all areas of itself to help with problems you are attempting to solve. - To help learn you want to surround yourself with a stimulating environment and people, but if you cannot do this, then you can get the same benefit from exercise. - Aerobic Exercise for New Brain Cells and Cognitive Performance: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5KVR5wnOqw> ## **Chunking** - When you first look at a new concept, it is where you unite scrambled information into one piece through giving it meaning. It is the opposite of mere memorization. By chunking, you can then see how the information relates to other items and subjects. - Chunking is like taking many computer files and turning them into a single zip file. - The concept of chunks pertain to academic information but is also in sports and music or any other skill that can be learned. - Learning a song on a guitar can be considered a large chunk, it involves listening, watching and acting. Grasping a song you may need to break it up into mini chunks of the song and learning certain parts of the song first and then piecing it all together. Piecing all the mini chunks together into a larger chunk is the process of chunking. This process can be applied to sports when learning certain techniques. - Building your ability to comprehend an entire chunk can be considered as building your cognitive muscles and load. - It is important to look at how individual chunks connect between steps and not entirely on why a particular chunk works. It is not just memorization of chunks but understanding why and how the chunks can connect. - **Focused Attention:** When you first begin to learn a technique you create new neural patterns that connect with existing neural patterns, This requires your focus so that your brain is not having its attention divided. - **Understanding:** Understanding the information you are attempting to chunk is also crucial, you can focus and use your focused and diffused modes to get the gist or vibe of the idea. You can still create a chunk if you don’t understand but it can often have a problem fitting into other chunks. Also, just because you can grasp an idea does not immediately lead to expertise, a review is still required. - **Practice:** Learning a chunk will also require understanding the context of the chunk, so you know when to use it and when not to use it and how it fits into the bigger picture. Practice will help you broaden the neurons connected to your chunk. - Learning takes place in 2 ways, the bottom up chunking process and the top down big picture process. Both of these are critical to gaining mastery. - **Recall:** Simply re-reading knowledge is not as useful as looking away after reading and attempting to see as much as you can recall. Retrieving knowledge is not just a mindless robotic process, but the recall process helps build neural hooks that knowledge is hung upon. Remembering material when you are outside your usual place of study will also help you prepare for taking tests which will be in an unfamiliar room. - **The illusion of Competence:** Merely glancing at a solution and thinking you know it yourself. You have to have the information living in your memory to be able to recall it later. For instance just highlighting text can mislead you into thinking you have learned and stored the information in your brain. Instead, create notes in a margin that synthesize ideas. - Motivation is essential to learning. If you are not motivated about a topic, it is a lot harder to learn. - Most of the neurons in your cortex carry information about what is happening around you; it will send information not about the content of what you are learning but the importance of it to you. - Acetylcholine, Dopamine, and Serotonin are neuromodulators that control how neurons respond to other neurons. - **Acetylcholine:** neurons form connections that are necessary for focused learning. - **Dopamine:** Our motivation is controlled by dopamine. This helps reward learning and also affects decision making. Dopamine predicts future and immediate rewards so it motivates you to do something that may not be an immediate reward but lead to a long term reward. - The ability to combine chunks of information is a skill that many top innovators practice and master. Bill Gates would set aside a week of reading to help build different chunks of information in his mind. - Musicians, linguists and scientist can each access large amounts of information in their field. Chunking is not all you need, but it is crucial. - It can help understanding different fields as when you know one chunk it can help you understand other chunked concepts in a different field. This process is called Transfer. - A chunk is a process of compressing a lot of information to the most compact form. When you have many chunks of information, your diffused mode of learning can help you connect different chunks of information. - You can imagine chunks as being pieces of a puzzle that you are putting together. - The bigger your library of chunks you have you will be able to see patterns between chunks and find solutions. - You have two ways to solve problems, and these are Sequential (step by step) and Holistic (intuition). Most difficult problems are grasped through intuition, it works in diffused mode, because they are normal with topics that are unfamiliar. - Law of serendipity: Fortune favors the brave. Only focus on whatever subject you are studying and if you concentrate on the first concept, the following ideas will be a bit easier to understand. - Overlearning: This is when you continue to examine something after you master it. This can be valuable in practices that involve automaticity. - Be careful of overlearning in a single session. Once you have a concept down in a single session, you do not reap any benefits by going over and over the idea. Instead, use a subsequent study session. - Repeating something over and over that you have already mastered can create an illusion of competence on a given area. Instead, continue to focus on areas you do not completely understand with deliberate practice. - Einstellung: This is a concept where you have an initial thought, or pre-existing neural pattern may prevent a better idea from being found. This is a sort of rut that prevents your brain from going to a new area where a solution may be found. It is a mental roadblock. - You sometimes have to unlearn old approaches to learning new ones. - Mastering a new subject involves not only learning basic chunks but how to select and use them. Learning basic chunks can be practiced by alternating between different problems that require different methods of solution. This process is called Interleaving. - Interleaving is what builds flexibility and creativity as it leaves the realm of repetition. If you interleave between different subjects and discipline, you can weave your different knowledge chunks together. - There is a tradeoff here of becoming a specialist to a jack of all trades. The specialist may be more susceptible to Einstellung but learning many disciplines may not allow you to go as deep in one area. - Different areas of knowledge do not have to be strictly academic areas of learning. - Chunks are pieces of information that are bound together via use and meaning. They compactly store essential ideas. They can get bigger and complex and are built with focus, attention, understanding and practice. This simple recall is an excellent way to help to learn Chunks. - Changing your environment when learning the same ideas will help you be able to chunk ideas and recall in many areas. ## **Procrastination** - Building stable long term memory takes time, and you cannot put off until the last minute. - Real learning takes time and cannot be done by simply cramming information. That is why you need to avoid procrastination. - We procrastinate about things that make us feel uncomfortable; you shift focus to something more enjoyable which gives you a temporary feeling of happiness but can cause long term unhappiness. - Procrastination is a bad habit that can influence many different areas in your life. - Consider procrastination like poison. It is deadly to you, but you can build up a tolerance by ingesting small doses of it. - **Four parts of a habit:** Habits can be good, bad or neutral. They can have four parts, The cue that launches the trigger. The routine, habitual response that you will fall into after you receive the prompt. The reward you receive from going through with the routine that helps form and cements your habit. The belief in habits gives them power, to change a habit you need to change your underlying conviction. - **The journey, not the destination:** Focus on the process, not the product. Focus on spending the time working, not what will be produced at the end of the time which you may consider unpleasant and cause procrastination. - **Changing your habit:** The only place you need to focus your willpower on changing a habit is to change your reaction to the cue. Recognise your cues and what launch you into your procrastination habit. They usually fall into four categories, location, time, how you feel and reactions. The routine is where you must actively rewire your habit, to do this you must make a plan for what to do next time you notice your cue has triggered your habit. You will need to find out what your reward is for your habit and see what it is and what it can be substituted for that is beneficial. You will need also to change your belief system and believe that your plan to change your habits will work. - **Life and learning:** Once a week write a list of essential tasks in a journal. Then write a daily "to do" that you can easily work on. Write your daily "to do" the night before, so your subconscious can work on the topics. - Plan your day, especially your quitting time! Break times are also important to have planned. Eat your frogs in the morning, tackle your most difficult tasks first, so you do not procrastinate them all day. - Learning and tackling procrastination has to be done bit by bit like building a wall or weight lifting for muscle. Commit yourself to a routine each day. ## **Memory** - Human brains have a superior visual memory system. We can look to tap into this visual memory system to help us remember non-visual memories by associating them with an image. We can enhance this further by association the sounds and feel that the image creates. The more memorable of a picture that we associate with a chunk of information they more vividly we will be able to remember it. - This visual image still needs to be repeated to help form the neural connections. Handwriting ideas appear to help establish the neural connections the best. - You can use flash cards to write down ideas with associated images and feelings, Then shuffle the cards to help interleave these memories into place. Take breaks and re-look at the flash cards at different intervals. - I good online flashcard system is <http://ankisrs.net/> - Whenever you recall a memory, it changes through a process called reconsolidation. AS we learn new things our old memories also change. This is why it is best to space learning over time than to cram and mass in a short period. - **Memory Palace Technique:** Creating meaningful groups of words and images is a powerful key to remembrance. Using the first letters of each word and creating a sentence with these is a classic memory technique. The memory palace technique involves creating or recalling a familiar physical layout like your house or a castle. This memory of a physical place becomes your memory palace. Add things you want to remember to your image of the house or palace, so you create a familiar memory of the palace and add additional memory withing the different rooms. <https://litemind.com/memory-palace/> and [Method of Loci.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci) - Creating a disciplined system to learn your memory is crucial in building a superior learning system. ## **Unlocking Your Potential** - The best way to grow new neurons to help your learning is through physical exercise. It is by far more efficient than any drug on the market to help you learn; it is important for schools to have P.E and recess as this contributes to the learning process. - One of the best techniques you can use to remember ideas is creating a visual image, metaphor or analogy that associates this idea. - Being able to use your mind's eye and visualize has been responsible for many breakthroughs in both art and science. - We can learn physical actions by repetition to create muscle memory. But chess masters, surgeons, and fighter pilots have to make complex decisions in split seconds, so they have to shut down their conscious and go by intuition. AS an idea you are already holding in mind (Einstellung) can block new thoughts. - Deliberate practice on the hardest parts of a problem will help build your mental muscles to rival anyone who is naturally gifted. - **The imposter syndrome:** Even if you are highly proficient in a topic you feel like you are getting lucky or that you will be found out as a fraud. This feeling happens to a lot of people. More on [Imposter Syndrome.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) - Perseverance can outwork talent if you free yourself from cognitive bias. - **Teamwork:** The best way to catch your blind spots and prevent yourself from fooling yourself is to brainstorm and collaboration with other people who have knowledge of the subject. If you work on your own, you can lead yourself to believe you have a much higher level of competence than you possess. - **A checklist for tests:** Test taking is a powerful learning experience, you retain far more information from taking test and practice testing than from merely studying. The following questions are used to quantify if you have done all you can before taking a test. Did you make a serious effort to understand the text? Did you work with classmates to check solutions? Did you outline every test solution? Did you actively participate in active group discussion? Did you consult with tutors if you didn’t understand something? Did you carefully go through a study guide? - **Test taking tips:** Common knowledge suggests that when taking a test you should first work on the easier problems then move on to the harder problems. Science suggests the best way is to start with the harder problems first, and if you spend a minute and get stuck on this issue then stop and switch to an easier question, this allows your diffused mode of thinking to work and you can go back to the hard problem again. - To calm yourself if you are stressed in a test you should place your hand on your chest and breath deeply. If you practice this test into the weeks before the test, then you will be able to call upon this technique to relax much easier. Also, try consciously relaxing your tongue, cover up the answers to multiple choice questions and try to recall the information, face your fears, the day before a test have a final quick look at the material, but you will need all your brainpower the next day so do not use it before hand. - Teaching ideas to others will help them strengthen and resonate in your mind. ### Learning How To Learn Summary of [Course Located Here.](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn "https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn") [https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn ](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn%20) ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Summary of the coaching styles of Muska Mosston](https://www.sonnybrown.net/summary-of-the-coaching-styles-of-muska-mosston/) **Published:** August 25, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Summary of the coaching styles of Muska Mosston](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/MuskaMosston.jpg "Summary of the coaching styles of Muska Mosston › Sonny Brown")Summary of the coaching styles of Muska Mosston ### **Command Style** - This style is a very dictatorial style of coaching where the coach gives directions, and the students are instructed to replicate the instructions. The coach will then circulate throughout the students and provide individual feedback. - Groups who are receiving instruction are set up in an organized pattern with military precision. Often used for drills, warm-ups, and cooldowns. - The coach directs the speed, timing and position of how the move is to be practiced. They would signal when to perform the move, and the students would respond. - This style makes efficient use of time, as the reputation involved in the learning process allows for maximum time spent performing the move. - The students do not have to think to learn the moves and just learn by memory, reputation and recall. ### **Practice Style** - The coach will give the task to the students to perform in the same vein as the command style. The coach will still circulate to provide feedback. - The students break up into smaller groups and decide on their rhythm, pace and repetitions on how they perform the move. - Students are given more control over their actions and have to take responsibility and independence for their actions. The additional responsibility may have an effect on the time spent practicing the move. ### **Reciprocal Style** - The coach gives instructions on how to perform the move. Then a team is broken up into pairs or threes. One person in the group is the designated observer in the group. - Instead of the coach then having to circulate to give feedback, the observer in the group can be giving constant feedback. In this way, feedback will continually be being provided which should lead to an overall greater volume of feedback.. - The coach will give a list of things to check and look for to the observer. The coach then only needs to communicate with the observers. - This results in better socialization between your students and they take an active role in their development. - The coach is then not required to be physically present for feedback and modifications. But less time will be spent performing the moves because of the additional observer. ### **Self Check Style** - The coach will give instructions for the move and will give the students a list of things to check during the performance of the move. - Students then practice the movement and, assess and compare themselves to the checklist that the coach has given them. - The Self check style allows for more time and progression of the move, and the students learn from the repetition and memory of the move. ### **Inclusion Style** - The inclusion method allows for multiple levels of a step so that the skill level accommodates for all of the students and they can all achieve a level of success with the move. - Students will choose the degree of skill they want to perform the move at based on their self-assessment of their ability. - The coach will then provide feedback on the [decision-making process](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-bjj-mental-models-learn-efficient/ "Efficiency in Learning Techniques, Making Decisions and Mental Models for BJJ With Steve Kwan") of the students skill level but not on what level the students should choose. - Students have the option to take a step back to have success at the move instead of the class-wide level being too high, and they fail. Allows the students to get more involved in their learning process. - Some students will have problems choosing what level to perform. Awareness of any gaps between reality and what skill level the student chooses should be a focus of the coach. ### **Guided Discovery Style** - In this style, the coach will guide the students through a range or series of scenarios and problems. The students will then make their decisions on what the solutions to each of these problems would be. - Each part of a move is guided by responses to the previous step. This will mean a lot of time is spent waaiting to get answers and figuring out what the step will be and the coach to give cues. More patience will be required. - A lot more preparation will have to be done by ther coach as they will have to prepare on how to deal with the wide variety of responses the students could give. Even then you will still likley encounter unanticipated answers and have to spend time experimenting. - The[ guided discovery style](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/ "The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts") will reduce the amount of time you get to spend physically practicing a move, but it will significantly increase the level of thinking ad cognitive involvement in the student. ### **Divergent Style** - The students engage in working out what the move will be in response to particular problems. - Then each solution that a student comes up with is given value and used while the coach will encourage the students to come up with responses but will not make the judgement of them. - The divergent style increases the level of the creativity of the students and gets them to cooperate. - The divergent style will be very demanding of the coach as they must have a lot of knowledge on what responses should be encouraged and how to do that. ### **Individual Program Style** - The Individual program will involve a program designed by the student and the coach based on their own abilities and skill level; - Completely individualized so it well not be suited to everyone and would dramatically increase the workload if done for an entire class. - The students can design their own problems and solutions and the coach will guide them and provide feedback on them. - The experience of both the student and the coach will be required for this to work and the student to actively engage in the design of their program. - Even the individual program will take up a lot of time to plan for the student as many factors and experimentation will have to be taken into account. I highly recommend you do further reading on the [spectrum of teaching styles](https://spectrumofteachingstyles.org/ "https://spectrumofteachingstyles.org/") as it is an excellent resource. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Learning --- ### [So, you’re a creative genius. now what? By Carl King Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/so-youre-a-creative-genius-now-what-summary/) **Published:** July 26, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** [![So, you’re a creative genius … now what ?](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/genius.jpg "So, you’re a creative genius … now what ? › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/genius.jpg) A Summary Of The Book So, you’re a creative genius. now what? By Carl King. Which Is an excellent resource and how-to guide for anyone creative who wants to be productive and successful while still remaining an artist. - This book is not for ordinary people. - Many of the ideas in this book are like magical spells. - There is also a dark side to this book. There’s no escape. - The first commandment in setting up a top secret laboratory is this: you must take it seriously. - What works for you is not “what caters to your bad habits.” > “Any composition (or improvisation) which remains constant and regular throughout is , for me, equivalent to watching a movie with only “good guys” in it, or eating cottage cheese” > > - Frank Zappa ## The Creative Genius - How to vs. Why to ### **The rebel creator.** - We create things because we are dissatisfied with what already exists. - We have an imagination so we can change the world, this could mean cleaning our bathroom or making a billion dollars. - Changing the world is inherent in our nature. The entire human race is changing the earth like ants or mould does. - “It doesn't matter if you go to Coachella and dance in the mud while Rage against the Machine plays. We all contribute to this process of eating the earth in our way. Until there is an alternative, we can only choose to eat slower or quicker.” - Unless you rebel in some way, you are not quite sentient. Creativity is rebellious. Betray the tribe. It's healthy. ### **I might suck, but my art is great.** - Get booed off stage at least once. - I didn’t choose my body or face. Through art, i can choose everything, be whoever I want to be. - An artistic expression could be a way of pointing a sign at myself or maybe I am the sign pointing to the art. Difficult to tell. ### **The mutants vs. the normals.** - Normal people are happy with their cats, nieces and co-workers. - This is a carefree life for them and the are not afflicted with the psychic peril of the creator. - We are the Mutants, the outsiders the rejects the aliens. - All winners start out as losers or else there wouldn't be a story to tell. - I will help you beat failure. I can’t think of a better “Why to.” ### **What is a creative genius?** - Think of genius as genuine, generate and Genesis. It essentially means creative. Commit to your creativity and you will be a genius. ### **Creativity's evil twin.** - If you use your imagination to make the world a better place that is creativity. - If you use your imagination to make the world worse that is called Destructivity . It is creativities evil twin. - Examples of Destructivity : Convincing yourself of reasons you will never succeed, playing unhelpful movies over and over in your head, thinking of all the things you dislike in the world more than the things you like. Thinking of all the problems in the world. Thinking of all things that could go wrong in a situation. - The world doesn’t need any more help killing us. You will be dead soon enough. At the very least you will get old, sick and die. Unless you are Ray Kurzweil, the grim reaper will show up for all of us and we only have a limited time. - You will eventually end up in bed and not get back up so why do that before you are even sick. - Failure is easy. This is the default outcome of everything. If you want to fail, you already know how, just sit back and watch TV. - Your imagination can be used as a movie theater that plays an endless loop of worthless sounds and images or you can use it to make stuff and be happy. You must take control of this. ### **Inventors, explorers… madmen?** - Mind your own business. - Make the unknown your friend. - Losing is not nobler. - Scientists used to be in a world of chaos and had to use their imagination to find rules and order. - Now scientists have reduced that into making the world a boring place. - These days our mad men are playing with quantum physics. They have discovered things exist, they don't exist, they exist in two places at once and are mostly space. - Explorers are not often entirely sure what they’re trying to discover or what they ultimately will learn. They just know they want to go see what is over there. - Progress is made by those who are not afraid of the unknown. ### **The aliens are coming!** - There is a part of the human mind, soul, spirit that does not have everything figured out. - We spent most of our evolution with an incomplete map of the world, not sure who else was out there, we would be going about our lives then be raided by barbarians who kill everyone. Until it happened it was probably just a legend. - It could be a part of our pre-conditioned psychological state. We are still expecting “The others” Not much is left to find on this planet, so we have started imagining creatures from out of space. - Imagine a beat up the old map, that has the edges filled in with what we imagine being there: pots of gold, mermaids, dragons. For anything interesting to happen those are the places we need to be, that is where the progress is. ### **Helpful Delusions** of a creative genius - Trust your creativity forever. - There is nothing wrong with believing in a strange or unconventional idea if it makes the world better. Even if they are illogical, maybe you are better off believing it than not. ### **Are you a consumer or a creator?** - If you are not creating something, you are not alive. Don't go through life as a consumer. If a robot could do what you are doing what is the point of living. - You want to align yourself with the spirit of creativity the guy who makes the jewellery, not the rich guy who buys it. - If you focus on the place or the product you are missing out on the most valuable lesson, the freak who built it. ### **The hierarchy: ideas at the top.** - The world is a great big machine powered by ideas. If you follow the food chain, upwards you will always find the person with the idea. Everyone else is serving that. - In any situation if you can get away with it make it your goal to be the one with the ideas. - A technical person will always be subservient to an idea person. - Do the work you think is important. - Be a dreamer. Anything else is just shoveling. ### **Your mission.** - We are all here on a mission, some of us realise it some of us don’t. - If you have an epiphany turn up the volume and listen. - Caroline Myss calls it a “Sacred Contract”. ### **You are the one** - End on a diminished chord. - Many movies seemingly have the same common person accepting his true identity as “The one”. The guy who knows the truth only nobody believes it. > “The outside is a prophet in disguise - disguised even from himself - whose salvation lies in discovering his deepest purpose, and then throwing himself into it .” > > - Colin Wilson, The Outsider ### **Signs from beyond.** - With so much going on in the world how do you know where you are going ? Look for signs. Coincidences, serendipity, impossible odds. - Sometimes this is how the most important decisions in life are made. - Creativity First, Business Second. ### **The Neverending Story** - The neverending story is a metaphor for the creative career and many of the baffling counterintuitive obstacles and challenges the creatives face. - Bastians mother has died and he is having an existential crisis, he wants to escape his crumbling life, he is falling behind at school , daydreaming and drawing unicorns. - Bastians Dad is the voice of safety and mediocrity. This voice is all around us , it's there every month telling us we need to pay the bills. Give up our dreams , put on a suit , go to the office and be boring life dad. - A creative career is a transformation . A metamorphosis. . Don’t plan, just go. - The scene where Artax is swallowed by the mud represents you unmotivated friends. You can't pull them along. As much as you scream and beg. - Morla the ancient one, the wisest being in all of Fantasia represent cynicism, insanity and failure. He is the jaded old person who hopes we give up too. He has been around so long that nothing matters anymore. - This is the voice of parents , teachers and ho hum failures. Why even get started ? It takes years to be able to play guitar so you will probably never get there right ? - (What we do not realise is it takes the same amount of time to do absolutely nothing with our lives.) - Falkor the luck dragon ! There is no disputing the power of luck. You can either live as a control freak in a safe, predictable universe of results that you micromanage … or you can take some chances and see what the world has to offer you. - *The Riddle Gate:* This represents self worth . Anyone who does not believe in himself will be blasted by the death rays from the eyes of the two sphinxes. The Answer ? To RUN ! - *The Mirror Gate:* Having made it through the first gate Atreyu must face the second where he will encounter his true self. We wear masks in life, even to fool ourselves. To look beneath our masks takes courage. We find that most of our external wars are actually internal. Our enemies remind us of ourselves so we point and say “That is not me.” - What is the purpose of the nothing ? Some people call this the system. The man. The matrix. “Be a good cog and stay in your cubicle”. - To save Fantasia and defeat the nothing Bastian must accept himself and use his imagination. Thats the secret . That is all there is to creativity. - Your Heroes must become your peers. - Be able to make sacrifices. ### **The Imagination** - Our minds are made for two things: Seeing things that are there and Seeing things that are not there. Which ability is more glorious and noble? - The imagination is the most powerful tool we have yet its the least nurtured, the least developed. In school we are not judged on what we create but what we memorise. - Our imagination is slowly beaten out of us with facts. - We all own the most powerful tool in the universe “We can imagine anything” - Don’t let your tombstone read: Here lies Bob , who spent the majority of his waking hours running a cash register”. ### **Without question** - “You can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards.” - Steve Jobs - You don't jump into many things in life without question. But With creativity you have to jump in it and drown in it before you can figure out where you are going. Otherwise you will be calculating too much and what you create will be superficial. - Do not second guess yourself and try to figure out how people will react to your art. - Be brave. Make something substantial. ### **Let's define success and failure.** - “It is impossible to win a war with no criteria for success” - Unknown - Success means “ Exponential return on creative investment”. - Success is a creative career project that : Reaches its intended audience, Pays its creator with money, real money, Funds the next creative career project. ### **Are you well adjusted?** - No matter where you are on your career path you MUST be well adjusted to it. - Think of failure as a dessert that must be crossed. - The way you deal with failure will determine how you deal with success. If you deal with failure inappropriately you will also deal with success inappropriately. - Failure really means “Unable to effectively respond to problems and difficulties as they arise” - Failure is a habit, not an event. Adjust yourself well to it. ### **Journey and Destination** - Consider that how you get there can be as important as where you are going. - “No matter what you do, you’re always working for the man” - Hellworms - You can only make the best choices in your own life” ### Creative Genius & **The story of change** - All life is the story of change from one state of being to another. - Everyone moves through time and space becoming or unbecoming. - Be a pro, or a hobbyist. Don’t be an amateur. ### **Refuse to accept your current situation.** - If you want to change you must refuse to accept your current situation. Don’t take it seriously . It’s not real. (Thats another helpful delusion) - It is too easy to get sucked into the day to day drama of the world around you, the people, the bad ideas, the gossip. - If you want to move away from that then don’t become a part of it. Keep it external from yourself like a movie. ### **Bow and Arrow** - Great men and women throughout history are often pulled back by something before they launch forward. Where the arrow is coming from is as important as where it is going. If you look closely enough, you can often find that initial tension that created all of the forward motion. - The trick is to see how far you can pull yourself back without snapping the bowstring. The further you can pull it back without breaking the further you will travel. ### **The Cargo Cult** - Isn't the world just one big cargo cult? - One guy writes a magical hit then millions of people try to replicate its success. - Hits occur spontaneously in a reactive organic environment, They used to just happen but now they are made to happen. - Still no one knows when they actually will happen. Its like trying to get struck by lightning. ### **The three acts of your creative career.** - **Act One:** Ideas. “Follow your bliss” - Joseph Campbell. This act usually starts early in life although it can happen at any age. Maybe you were inspired to pick up a musical instrument, you might not even be sure why, you were just drawn to it. - It is good to follow your intuition in this act. - The problem is too many talented people get into this phase and never leave. - **Act Two:** Action. This is not just action but meaningful action. This is where you get serious, make sacrifices and commit to your path. - You make calculated , often drastic moves to improve your situation. - Realise you have spent too much time on things that go nowhere. It’s time to get serious. - **Act Three:** Results. In this act you finally get some results. You figured out the magical combination.Nothing before Act Three counts. Until you get results you haven't really done Anything. - Dont Honk. Tell a good story. ## **The Creative GENIUS Career Process** ### **The four archetypes** - These archetypes represent the path we are on , the creative career. Doing stuff on earth making something out of nothing through willpower. - **The Business Man:** Just wants to turn $1 into $2. Is that so wrong? Is competitive. Takes the initiative. Always shows up early. Is conscious mind oriented. Is guided by logic and reason. Has an atheistic view of the material world. Focuses on skills (learned abilities). Is organised. Socialises in order to advance his career. Takes advantage of the fool and the artist. Wants to control. Likes mechanics and workflow. Correspond to left brain thinking. Keyword: Rich. - What is the something that the businessman is making out of nothing? Usually its money.Things go in a specific order, you work through a series of steps and you get results. - The businessman doesn't understand why the artist doesn't just put A, B and C in sequence and succeed like he can. - **The Artist:** Is a dreamer. Spends a lot of time contemplating meaning. Will NEVER show up on time. Doesnt care about money, always broke. Has no sense of urgency. Draws inspiration from his subconscious. Wanders. Is guided by emotions. Focuses on talents (Inherent abilities). Is superstitious. Is disorganised. Wants To escape from this mundane universe. Is inspired by chaos. Corresponds to Right Brain thinking. Keyword: Famous. - Artists don't like this world because the one in their heads is better. They tend to be idealists. They are notorious for destroying their bodies but artists are the ones that come up with the weird ideas the businessman turned into a formula. - **The Fool:** Has no goals in life. Does not question authority. Follows the crowd. Is always looking to someone for advice. Will be an employee forever. Surrounds himself with anyone who likes him. Does not consider long-term consequences. Doesn’t care what anything means. Is not interested in learning or developing. Seeks immediate gratification. Is drawn toward passive recreation. Consumes more than he creates. Blames others for his failure. Corresponds to no brain thinking. Is the victim of the businessman. - This is the bulk of the human race because everyone starts out as the Fool and most stay there If we evolve at all we generally become either the businessman or the artist. - **The Magician:** Learns to balance creativity and self discipline. Understands the parallels between art and commerce. Draws upon his conscious AND subconscious mind. Answers his own questions, or asks the right people. Learns many skills and develops his talents, he values them both. Is a collector of wisdom and great art. Is a wrangler of talented people. Is focused on results. Accepts that nothing is perfect. Has a holistic view of give and take. Enjoys the journey AND the destination. Is an inspiration to both the businessman and the artists. Corresponds to whole brain thinking. The fool can’t even conceive of what the magician is. - The magician embodies the elusive paradox of duality and balances art and business. - The archetypes do not translate into professions but rather personality types. For instance a working musician could embody the businessman archetype. In most any profession you will find examples of every archetypes. ### **The man with two brains.** - Lets imagine your brain is a limousine. The part of your brain you can control is the limo driver. he sits up front and looks at the road, swerves in and out of traffic. So hes in control right? he has his hands on the steering wheel and his feet on the pedals. - But he doesn't go where he wants to go He gets his instructions from the rock stars in the back. He can't see them. He knows where he is going but not why he is going. But the greatest ideas come from the back of the limo. - Remember we are after results. ### **Get the broad strokes right.** - Focus on the big picture. Don’t spend all of your time on the fine details. Great big ideas are simple. If your broad strokes are wrong the smaller details won’t matter. ### **Everything is a haiku** - Be specific when you [promote yourself](https://www.sonnybrown.net/down-under-danaher-peurto-rico-pro-grappling-craig-jones-bjj/ "Craig Jones Jiu-Jitsu From Down Under to Danaher, Peurto Rico, Pro Grappling & Providing Entertainment"). - Limitations make life interesting. They are not meant to be a cookie cutter. They are the boring parts that make the clever parts what they are. - Without them there would be nothing for the playfulness to rebel against. - Rules really are made to be broken. - Decide which elements of your work you want to be predictable. - Keep a few things traditional then break everything else. - Ask yourself what you can break to make your work interesting. Do it in the same way repeatedly and you now have your own style. ### **What makes strong art?** - It has conflict. Both consonance and dissonance. There needs to be struggle with two opponents and one you can root for. - It has a foreground and a background.Something is in focus and something is out of focus. - It has contrast. Light, dark. Big, small. Loud, soft. - It has direction. It shows motion of some kind and takes you on a journey from one place to another. - It has surprise. If you want to make the same old stuff everyday go work in a factory. - It makes a statement. If you do the math the world we live in doesn't make sense. - It affects people. If it doesn't it is dead. ### **The secret to making weak art.** - The secret to making weak art is to ignore your dark side. - Art is therapeutic and sometimes less expensive than counselling. - Embrace your mental malfunctions , your past pain, things you don’t like, just draw it all and go. ### **Permission to be creative, sir.** - You don't need permission , you are already pre approved. - Amateurs go to workshops and get discouraged because they are bombarded by a long list of reasons they will always suck. - All of the professional jargon, tricks secrets and insider tips are diversions to keep them out. - Anyone can study and learn technique the hard part is coming up with great ideas in the first place. - Many successful people succeed because they didn't know that they couldn't. - If your idea is truly great you will not abandon it. ### **Talent vs Skill.** - For a successful creative career you need both talent and skill and you need to know the difference between them. - Talents are things that come easily to you. - Skills are things you work hard at to balance against your talents. Talent is the central core. - Talent is often invisible to the person who has it since it is effortless ability. We often think that to be good at something we must work hard for it. - The problem with skill is that talented people neglect it and rely on talents as a crutch. They don’t bother to develop skills because there talent comes to them so easily. - You have to accept and apply your talents and develop your skills. - Find out what you are good at and become excellent at it. Find out what you are bad at and become mediocre at it. ### **Collaboration / partners.** - “There is no god greater than the god of creativity. All lesser gods must be sacrificed to his name” - Pastor Eman Laerton. - If you are going to work with someone on a creative project clearly define your roles. - Friends are one thing, business partners on a finite project are another. - There is nothing wrong with being a benevolent dictator. ### **Am i too old? too young?** - A creative career is a lifelong commitment. - Believe in your ability to constantly create new ideas in the future. - The average life expectancy is 80 but many people grow old and worn out at 30 and stop being creative. John williams composed the soundtrack for Star Wars when he was 45. - As you get older you should be collecting high level lessons and be moving away from physical labour to mental labour. You will no longer be paid for carrying heavy rocks but for your wisdom regarding where to place them. - It doesn't matter how old you are you can reinvent yourself at anytime. - Dont look back at what you've done and measure yourself against it. Work in a vacuum. - Move on and try new things and make your life an adventure. ### **Launch it into space.** - As soon as you start making stuff release it !You want to start getting feedback right away. Dont be afraid of input. Share your ideas with others to gain outside perspectives. - The important thing is it is out there. ### **Put yourself on the world showcase.** - At some point in your creative development you are going to need to stand alone against the whole world. The sooner the better. - Publish your work in highly visible places where it will be compared to the masters. - You have got to get over the fear of not being good enough so go for it. ### **Compare your work to the best.** - Always have a reference, When you are working on a piece of music have something on hand to compare it to . - Make sure your art is in good company. If you listen to good music all day your own music will get better. - Calibrate your sense of quality. You can use critical thinking and problem solving to find out what your art is lacking. Train yourself to notice the difference. ### **Taking criticism.** - All feedback and criticism is constructive. The two goals of taking criticism. 1: Improving your work. 2: Improving your work. - As unpleasant as it can be without feedback or criticism you will never know what works and what doesn't. - For it to work people must pay attention to it.”If you can't learn to control peoples eyeballs you are screwed. and the only way you are going to learn that is by sticking things in front of those eyeballs and finding out what happens. ### **Good news: no one cares.** - The good news is that unless you are already succeeding no one is going to care what you do. Enjoy the artistic freedom of obscurity. So do not overthink it. - If you are going to be committed to the long term you have to start releasing stuff and have that be the normal process. - Hold onto the paradox : 1: This is the big one and 2: This is just another thing i do. ### **A culture of critics.** - TV talent shows are creating a culture of snobby , critical and mean people who love to watch other people fail. - Art is not a competition it is self expression and never forget that. - People are quick to predict what won't work and if you listen to that crap you might never make or release anything. ### **Creating the ultimate supervillain.** - Do you want everyone to like you ? Time to get over that. - Thousands of people hating you will not hurt your creative career. ### **The seed.** - Every creation needs a reason to exist This is the seed. Without it your art will be in a state of existential crisis. > “The beginnings of great things cannot be seen by your naked eye” > > - David Lee Roth ### **How to die a polymath.** - Everyone who wants a creative career should learn the basic mechanics and theory of Writing, drawing, design , music , photography and video. - You do not need to be good at all of them just get a grasp of the fundamentals. - You will be amazed at the concepts you can learn from making a lateral move from one form of expression to another. - Banish “Most people are stupid” from your vocabulary. It is how most people got to be stupid. ## **Workspace** of the creative genius ### **Building your own spaceship** - The magical workshop. The secret factory. The underground laboratory. - If you are going on this mission you have to build your own spaceship and you are going to spend a lot of time on it. - This does not mean go out and buy a bunch of decorations. - The first commandment in setting up a top secret laboratory is this : YOU MUST TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. - Declare what you are doing is real and important. Designate a sacred room/ desk/ car/ laptop as the spaceship. Its going to be your helm, your captains chair. - Treat it with the utmost respect. Clean and organise it everyday It is a living shrine to your creative career. - Do not allow visitors to wear shoes on your carpet. You would be amazed at what a difference this makes. ### **Tools and materials.** - They serve a purpose. The tools themselves are not the purpose. People who buy expensive gear and don't use it are show offs and are not usually the people that get anything done. - What are computers mostly used for ? Resizing photos , typing text and wasting time. The same thing we have been doing on them for ten years. - People argue about brands like they argue about sports teams. It doesnt matter what brand anything is , a brand name is not a tool it is a decal. - A tool is transparent cable connecting purpose to results. If you even see the tool you have missed the point. - Most of the great stuff throughout history was made with rudimentary tools. Tools are not a replacement for genius. > “Its like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finder, or you will miss the heavenly glory” > > - Bruce Lee ### **The Hardware/ Software eternal chase.** - You buy a new computer and it runs really fast. - Over time you install new stuff, updates and patches , the latest OS. - Your computer starts to run slow again so you have to buy a new computer. Its a trick. - Dont be in a hurry to upgrade your software. ### **The location: let's Move** - **Population:** You want to live in a place where it is easy to do all the uncreative boring things so they do not interrupt the creative process. - **Culture:** What is the dominant culture of your location ? You want to live in a place that is clean and full of productive people. - **Safety:** You do not want to live where you have to fear for your life. - **Infrastructure:** How is your town designed ? If the infrastructure cannot handle the population be prepared to sit in traffic 4 hours a day. Which is a part time job you will not get paid for. - **Weather:** You want to feel comfortable , how many months per year can you have your windows open ? ### **The time is now.** - There will never be a “right time” so dont plan it or talk about it , just go. - If you can do basic math you can figure out how to survive. ## THE CREATIVE GENIUS AND **Health** ### **Exercise** - Use your body. You have one and you should use it , do not live the life of a handicapped person. When no one is telling you what to do it is easy to let yourself go. - Try walking, jogging or biking, get out and see the daylight. Its something the cubicle people never get to see. ### **Diet** - Your body is an engine and food is your fuel. - It is easier to consume calories than it is to burn calories. - You can easily consume a days worth of calories in ten minutes. - What is sold as “Food” is not always food. - Our bodies are not good at burning calories but they are good at storing calories. ### **Eat for your body, not your tongue.** - Chemists hired by corporations have put chemicals in your food so that you won't want to stop eating. It is you against them. - This food often has no nutritional value because it is cheaper to put nutritionless crap in your body and make it taste good. - It is absurd that one small organ , the tongue makes so many decisions for the boy. - [Food is fuel](https://www.sonnybrown.net/weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj-dr-reid-reale/ "Weighty Issues of Weight Loss and Weight Cutting for Combat Sports with Dr Reid Reale"). - Our bodies convert it to energy that is used when your body moves around. Never eat energy you don't intend to immediately use ### **Skip the middlemen.** - Skip the middleman and shove that handful of doughnuts straight into the toilet and flush em. Dont act as a living breathing sugar filter for your toilet. ### **Medicating.** - If your going to take mass manufactured chemicals to treat physical symptoms be aware of this: Pharmaceuticals are a profit driven business, The side effects can be worse than the original problem, Pills are not a substitute for lifestyle changes. ### **Find a good doctor.** - Your doctor should listen to you. - Your doctor should be curious about your problems. - Your doctor should address not only the symptoms but your lifestyle. - A doctors office should be a place of holistic healing. ### **Extend your life.** - The result we are after with all of this talk of health and diet is life extension. - Spend the extra time in life on your creative projects. - Your goal should be to stay young and healthy for as long as you can. ## **Learning** ### **Identify what you like and why.** - Read the owners manual for your mind. Study Logical fallacies, cognitive biases and lateral thinking. - Pick your favourite band or movie and figure out what the one thing is that you could remove that would destroy it entirely. ### **Emulate others, but only as an exercise.** - Do not lose yourself in emulating others. This may not happen a lot early on while you are still learning and changing at an incredible rate. - Learn to take ideas of other and embellish them. ### **Look again.** - Learn things and then learn them again. - If you watch an interesting video that you learned something from , watch it again. - Part of the time you were probably integrating the information into your mind for the first time and missing other important points. - Sometimes we have to learn the same lesson multiple times, but we understand it on a different level the next time. - Try to do some sort of review of the ideas you have learned each day. - Sometimes ideas are forgotten after a short amount of time and you need a reminder. Sometimes they make even more sense later. - Keep an idea journal. ### **See-through the cheese.** - Some of the most fantastic musical ideas and performances are hidden behind bad hairstyles, clothing and videos of 80’s metal bands. - Do your best to see through the cheese in life and recognize true talent and skill. - There are important things to learn and they are not always on display up front. ### **The spell is broken.** - “Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live” - Mark twain. - When we first experiance art it is a mystery. A magic trick - As creators we gain knowledge of how things are made. - When they say “Art is in the eye of the beholder” it doesn't mean “everyone has a different opinion” It means our mind is the only place it can exist. - Sculptures aren't made out of marble they are made out of meaning. ### **Mentors** - Always seek out older successful creatives who believe in you . ### **Your heroes must become your peers.** - Realize that as you progress through your career your heroes will become your peers you may even find that you advance past them in certain areas. - Be your own hero. ### **Traditional education isn’t your thing?** - Dont feel bad. Most famous creative people have decided to design their own educations. - Even Albert Einstein dropped out of high school. ### **Should i go to that expensive music/film** technology school**?** - AS an alternative to that expensive college you could use what you would spend on attending it to actually start funding your creative career. - You'll learn more doing that than any classroom or textbook will teach you. ### **The difference between a piece of paper and education.** - The piece of paper, a diploma or certificate, tells the world “Hire me and i will fit nicely into your machine”. - It says absolutely nothing about your creativity, which in a creative career is everything. - Of course the world needs cogs, we are all cogs at one time or another. The trick is to be a cog in your own creative machine. ### **The five basic problems to solve.** - Be clean. Be on time. Be organise. Dont fight with people. Don't spend more money than you earn. - If you never get these figured out you will forever remain a child that is unable to deal with higher level problems. ### **What is mastery?** - If you become a master writer you will learn the same fundamental things about life as a master painter. - Its not about the particular things we accomplish. When you become a black belt its not about the belt itself. You have demonstrated mastery of Self. - It just so happens that self employment is the perfect vehicle for self mastery. ### **The sign on your back.** - Ever notice that everyone you meet has something fundamentally wrong with them ? Some important concept they don't grasp? - Here is a theory. [You have a tragic flaw and only you are blind to it.](https://www.sonnybrown.net/adisa-banjoko-blending-hip-hop-chess-brazilian-jiu-jitsu/ "Blending Hip Hop, Chess & BJJ With Adisa Banjoko of the Hip Hop Chess Federation") To everyone else it is blatant. Written loud and clear like a sign on your back. - You can see the reaction to the sign in everyones eyes, but no one will tell you what it says. In fact they can't. - You can spend your whole life trying to read that stupid sign. You may as well form a healthy working relationship with it . No amount of introspection will reveal it . - However the more you address it the closer you can get to deducing what it says the stronger art you will make. > “It was only real because we said it was real” > > - John Flansburgh, They might be giants. ## **Time and Energy Control** ### **Walking the one true path.** - This means everything in your life is unified towards your creative career. - Unless you make this your highest priority it will never happen. - You need to achieve what the church of the subgenius calls time control . Meaning you want to control all of your time. - There usually is no “on the side” . ### **The Three shifts.** - A traditional day job ends up taking 12 hours of your day. If you include the time getting ready, travelling, eating lunch - Pace yourself , to be able to balance everything break your day up into three shifts, four hours each. - **Shift 1:** Inspiration. 9 AM - 1 PM. Any project that is long term and requires creative vision do that first thing in the morning. This shift is the most important and the other shifts exist only to support it. THe work during this shift might not pay off for years. - **Shift 2:** Technical and freelance work . 1pm - 5pm. This is where you do the boring things for other people , suspend your own identity and follow order. Turn your creative skills into technical skills and sell them to support other artists and small businesses. This is so you can pay rent and utilities. - **Shift 3:** Research and practice. 5pm - 9 pm . This is time spent learning and improving. Think of it as night school. ### **Day on / Day off.** - You can also try working one day for them one day for you . - Whatever you do take control and find balance. - Do not live a scattered life only reacting to whims and distractions. ### **To-Do Lists.** - When you are an employee you have a to do list. The boss sends you an email and it goes on the list You do not question it. - Beware it is easy to fall into this same trap if you are self employed. ILearn to say no. - Remember you have the power to look at your to do list and select which items will achieve outcomes. - Beware of compound procrastination. If you are not careful you will end up with too many unrelated things on your to do list, scattered errands that do not make sense and since there is no possibility of arranging them in a linear order you cannot get started. - Sometimes the only answer is to set aside the factory mindset and start on one of them. ### **Efficiency.** - Some activities are more enjoyable when you take your time. Work is not one of them. - Strive for efficiency in all things, you do not want to double back, carry things you do not need, pay extra fees or make another phone call. - If you have a large project ahead of you invest a small amount of time up front in workflow design. - If you analyse your workflow you can save a lot of time and energy. so don't do stuff the long way. ### **Ideas plans and productions.** - These are all different things. Some ideas don't deserve to be turned into plans. Thats OK. - Too often people come up with a great idea and plan then get discouraged because the production doesn't happen. - The fact is only a small number of productions succeed. - Chances are someone else has the same idea that you have but are they going to plan and produce it ? ### **EROEI: The vengeful God at the centre of the galaxy.** - This stands for Energy returned on energy invested. From the day you are born you leak energy. Its a slow drain and you don't get it back . - What you do with the rest of it is up to you. - Dont be a passive consumer be the creator, this is active and has an exponential reward. - Focus the majority of your time and energy on activities that are consequential to your future. ## THE Creative genius and **MoneY** ### **You don’t want to be rich.** - If you are rich you will most likely spend your money on things that do not make sense and lose perspective on the creative energy in the universe. - You dont want to be rich you want to be responsible for large amount of money (energy). - Even though rich people think they do , no one owns money or energy. Certain people are only merely able to temporarily redirect them from one place to another. ### **Lemonade stand capitalism.** - What matters is the effect we create with that money. The outcome . The end results. - Money is a generic tool that can be used to do good or bad things - Make conscious and wise choices with not only how your acquire it but how you spend it. - If you run a lemonade stand keep it to a scale where the greatest amount of people involved still care about the lemonade .You don't want to become a faceless corporate machine. ### **Eternal vigilance: Financial accounting software.** - If you are committed to not being homeless go and buy yourself accounting software. - Keep track of all monthly expenses. - Keep track of what creative services are generating the most profit. Which clients are the best investment of energy ? ### **The universe will pay you.** - Every artist starts out with the fear they will never make a living. - If you do great work and share your creative value with the universe it will get around to paying you . - Nothing makes you an expert on a subject more than being able to do it for a living. ### **Not everything should be measure numerically.** - With the importance of measurement in our society we've become fixated on arbitrary numbers. - Money is only one way of transferring energy and value between one person and another. - Money is abstract and subjective, not a fixed material value. ### **Losing the game isn't nobler.** - If life is a big game of monopoly. What's wrong with winning ? Why is losing more noble? - Someone will always lose and it doesn't need to be you. ### **Keeping your balance.** - Cashflow is a steady flow of payments received. - Paying yourself requires measure discipline and vigilance. ### **The problem with materialism.** - All of the material items you purchase is a waste of energy because its not actually yours - You can't truly own anything in this world you can only rent it until you die. - Get rid of stuff you don't use. - Most of what you own is mass produced junk that can be easily acquired again if you need it. - “The things you own end up owning you” - Tyler Durden. ### **Lose everything.** - You need to be willing to scrap it it and start over again. If you do not stay in a state of reinvention in real time life will come along and kick you ass when you least expect it. - Destruction is part of creation. - Once you hit the bottom a couple of times it won't scare you anymore. ### **Being poor is expensive.** - Banks love to punish us for being poor. If you operate near zero you will be paying a whole lot of extra charges. Overdraft fees, late fees etc. - Stay as far away from $0 as possible. Always plan ahead and build a buffer to avoid getting sucked into the money black hole. - An abundant lifestyle is actually less expensive and requires less energy than being poor. ### **Live in the future.** - Plan things a day in advance. Then plan things a week in advance, then a month and so on. Learn to live in the future. - Prepare for your life rather than living in a state of panic and emergency. ### **Patching the holes.** - In the same way we leak energy we are also leaking money. Every dollar you spend should work for you . - Food: There is no reason that you should be spending more than $5 a day on food. Thats only $1825 a year. Restaurants are not good places to get food. - Clothing: Blank t shirts and plain jeans are cheap and simple to wear. - Magazines: Don’t buy magazines just read online. - Avoid Retails: Try to buy directly from manufacturers or distributors. - Buy in Bulk. Whenever you can buy in bulk. Take advantage of quantity discounts. ### **Buy money, don't save it.** - When you put money into a savings account you are essentially buying money. - People don't do it because it is boring yet it is one of the smartest things you can do. - If you want money so badly why are you in such a hurry to spend it ? Go and buy money right now , even if it is only $5. ### **Consider yourself lucky.** - If you make any money at all for being creative. Many great artists poets and inventors die bankrupt and insane. ## **The business side of the business** ### **Hobbyists, amateurs & professionals.** - A pro is learns every facet of his art and demands respect for it an amateru gives up or hires someone else to do things because he is only good at one thing. - A pro turns up on time and gets everything done but an amateur waits for someone else to succeed for him . - A pro gets a break and exponentially turns it into a career an amateur self sabotages , complains. - A pro studies peripheral topics related to his primary field of expertise. An amateur is at the mercy of unknown technology that is never set up right. - A pro studies his craft relentlessly, an amateur studies losers and eventually becomes one. - Hobbyists love to do what they do but they don't really take it seriously. There is no pressure for these guys They have fun with it on the weekends and it is a positive experience ,there is nothing wrong with that. - The pro is world class who trains every day adjusting his entire lifestyle to be the best at what he does. For him it is also a positive experience The work is a massive reward in itself. - An amateur is really just a deluded hobbyist who masquerades as a pro by expecting to support himself off his hobby. Hobbyists don't like to work they just like to have fun and its the same with amateurs. - If you don't choose to be a pro consider just being a hobbyist. Whatever you do , don't be an amateur. ### **Got factory?** - If you need to hire someone shop for a pro with a fully armed and operational creative battle station. If you don't see a factory don't trust him . Just assume the work will never get done. They need to have an assembly line and work on it everyday for a living. - “If you want something done give it to a busy person” - It takes a lot of work for someone just to get a factory up and running. ### **The eternal audition.** - Be prepared to spend your entire life trying to prove yourself. ## **Marketing for the creative genius** ### **Sales is not a bad word.** - When you see the word “Sales” or “Marketing” replace them with “communication”. - Artists are notoriously bad salesmen, that is because there first instinct when trying to sell themselves is to imitate bad salesmen. They learned this from amateurs , telemarketers , ticket scalpers, door to door solicitors and used car commercials. - Sales is not beating people up until they buy. - Sales is about connecting with people, tell a story they can relate to . The Best salesmen are not salesmen. They are friends. They are the ninjas that make the most sales. - Brute force is for salesmen who are scared to get real. They don't care about the people they are talking to they just care about selling widgets. - Don't sell the container , sell the content (the meaningful story) and people will buy the container. Be a great storyteller and connect with people and you will sell more widgets than you can imagine. ### **Story trumps all.** - Want to be a musician but cant sing, your guitar is missing string, you only have one microphone and you don't know what a verse or chorus is ? None of this matters if you can tell a powerful story with your music that will be the only thing that counts. - It is the same with all other creative projects. - Always try and connect with some fundamental idea that you want to share with the world. - Music is not the notes, it is the meaning . Music is nothing but a collection of symbols to display meaning. - Dont get stuck in the symbols, don't get stuck in the language of the language. It is all about the meaning and the story. ### **Throw away your tools.** - Forget about quality , technique , tools and form. A great story can be told regardless of those limitations. - Even if all you can do is talk you can still tell a powerful story. You are ready to do this when you are ready to tell the world about itself. ### **The worship of technique.** - Bad creatives in general focus on technique above all else. When we start technique is our primary obstacle, later on its hard to let go of that enemy. - Dont show off with technique, show off with great ideas. - Get the writing out of the way of the story, get the playing out of the way of the music, get the special effects out of the way of the movie. - You have got to tell a story , a narrative, and it needs to be grounded. Primal. Simple. - The greatest art can be reduced to a simple , central premise that anyone can understand and the rest is only decoration. ### **Text and subtext.** - Text is what you say subtext is what you mean. - if you go around talking about how famous and important you are the subtext will give you away because if you really were you wouldn't have to say it. ### **Honking** - Honking happens a lot on social networking. A honker is an unimaginative artist whose sole purpose for social networking is to promote their latest cd, book , movie or live performance “Honking” about it obnoxiously like a ugly , fat goose. - Impersonal, generic messages full of data that don't amount to much more than “Click on my link”. - You cannot have a creative career and be focused on product based selling. - Revenue has to come from : 1. Live personal interaction . Live shows, workshops, Retreats. 2. Limited edition , one of a kind collectables. Forget trying to sell things people can download. Take a cue from the comic book , sci fi audience. Sell statues, mugs, anything that someone can put on their desk, hold in there hand, touch. Make it special, make it rare.Make it cool. - Everything else that can be downloaded is free. Give it away. This is the new world and the way it works. > “I make the act of doing business part of the creative act. I involve it in the overall concept of what i do. Which has led to some rather amusing album covers. I think and some pretty bizarre advertising campaigns for the products. If you have to advertise make it interesting. If you have to do an album cover make it interesting. If you have to do an interview make it interesting. You should always make it interesting” > > - Frank Zappa Frank Zappa wasn't just selling albums he was sharing his imagination with the world. ### **Naming your company.** - The best names for creative companies are : 1. Creative and fun 2. Easy to spell and remember. 3. Unusual. - Dont overthink it , if what you do is fantastic the name is secondary. ### **The downward spiral.** - We have all heard or said the phrase “Most people are stupid”. Banish it from your vocabulary. It is a downward spiral known as popular media. - If we assume most people are stupid we make stupid art. - Dont contribute to the downward spiral and dont be stupid. ### **Web design for artists.** - There are no websites only content. Get your website out of the way and get to your message. Don't bury your most important content three levels deep, put your best stuff on the front page. - Just have great content, no one cares about buttons or bouncy things. Website visitors are distracted and impatient and in a hurry.;So keep it simple. - The homepage should have your main point which can be digested in thirty seconds. One title, one photo, one media clip and one descriptive paragraph. - All the rest of your junk goes to the basement of your website for those random stalkers. ### **Show me the panda.** - What is the result you want out of your website ? What action do you want the visitor to take ? Buy a panda? laugh at pictures of pandas? Subscribe to your podcast on pandas? - Clear a short straight path to the panda button. Center aisle. Big display. Spotlight. No distractions . No clutter. ### **Pleasing the demigods of professionalism.** - Too many people have the wacky idea in there mind that they need to be “professional”. They have to be the victims of brainwashing as they believe people will take jobs and opportunities away from an artist who does anything remotely edgey or weird. ### **Professional does not mean formal and corporate.** - All it really means is that you are for real . It means you really work in the business you claim to and that you are solid and reliable. - Professional is often subtext. You demonstrate that you are professional you dont say you are professional with fancy words. - Dont be afraid to be your unique self. You can't afford to be anything more boring than you already are. The world needs mutants. ### **The formality scale.** - All communication is somewhere on the formality scale . From slang, Informal and common to formal and corporate. Use the register that is easiest and makes the most sense. ### **Forced formality** - Don’t try and force yourself to speak in the formal register instead of just talking like a regular person. - Dont ever try to sound more educated than you are. ### **Why so Smarmy?** - Amateru writers think everything has to be written in a smarmy register. Its because they have read a lot of bad writing. - The intention of bad writing is to communicate “ I know more about the english language than you.” - They disregard the purpose of writing which is to share an idea with the reader. ### **Candles vs Wildfires** - Trying to spread a weak message is like lighting individual candles on fire one by one and trying to keep them lit. A powerful message is like a wildfire. If your fire frequently goes out then maybe you should just let it, important fires keep burning. ### **Lumpkins law.** - Named after Lance Lumpkin it states “The less valuable something is the more it requires advertising”. - People put themselves through the agonizing process of making their art as boring and normal as humanly possible and then wonder why they have to beg people to pay attention to it. . - “Great art sells itself” - “A superior message advertises itself” - If what you do is remarkable people will remark about it . - Every time you say come out to my show or buy my new album what is the subtext? that no one wants to. - Self promotion is the delicate art of subtext. If you talk the plot it is over. - “If people aren't talking about what youve done , what youve done isnt worth talking about” ### **The clown car of fame** - Too many people want to be stars. In previous generations kids wanted to be doctors, plumbers or firemen. - Only a certain percentage of the population can be famous. ### **How to be interviewed.** - When doing an interview one bad instinct people have is to censor themselves and when the camera is turned on they try and hide the interesting parts about themselves. - To be an interesting person you need depth, you need flaws and vulnerability. You need to surprise people. Its the unexpected that people are interested in. - No dark side = no interest. - Its the unusual cars with the dents in them that get names and personalities. - Dont be like a talk show host in training who thinks everything is amazing. ### **Break it.** - For something to be interesting, it has to be broken in some way. People are drawn to dissonance. - Audiences can't see much detail, they are wired to pay attention to things that stand out from the background noise and break patterns. - Things that are normal and invisible. ### **Be specific.** - When someone asks you what you do , be specific. - This is an opportunity to tell your story why what you do is different and special. - If it is not then why are you doing it ? ### **Points of interest.** - When you are trying to promote a product come up with a point of interest. - Hit the high points , what is different about it ? - Dont talk about the things that have stayed the same from day to day , it has to be the newest , the biggest or the first of its kind. ### **Going Viral … and other cliches.** - For something to go Viral it has to be something so outrageous and absurd you can help but spread it . - t has to be : Easy to share . Easy to understand from beginning to end. Surprising and unexpected. Dangerous. Never seen before, ever. Taboo. ### **Why do we care?** - To concoct a pseudo phenomenon you can't be too edgy out of the gate. - You first need your setup to establish point A. Then you can shock everyone when you move to point B. - There has to be a story of change. Changing sides. Changing from good to evil. Changing from light to dark. ### **Social media destroys Hollywood.** - Few people are doing anything important with it. - Before adding data to the internet you should define which form of online communication you should define which form of online communication you intend to employ … ### **Forms of online communication.** - **Announcements:** These are statements that communicate who/what/where and when data for those who are interested. - **Open Queries:** These are public questions that are intended to generate open commentary , discussion and debate. - **Private messages:** Sent from one person to another. - **Instant messages:** For immediate active discussion in real time. - **Text messages:** For when simply using your voice for a short message is not an option. - **Personal Journals:** Keeping track of your own personal activities so that you can refer to them later - Don't get these mixed up , streamline your messages. ## **THE CREATIVE GENIUS and self-control** ### **What is willpower?** - This is all about that moment when you must be conscious, focus your intent and do the right thing. - It is easy to drift off and become the slave of habit, whim or inertia. Wake up as it is too easy to become a zombie. ### **The inconsistency of creative genius.** - Some days you will be a genius , some days you will suck. It is impossible to predict what kind of day it is. Great art is the product of those few genius days. - Show up everyday and do the work. ### **Get fired every day.** - How can you stay motivated? Think of a telephone salesman. His entire career is spent unemployed , ringing up and trying to find a job but the flipside of that is he is never unemployed because he creates his own destiny. ### **Be aggressively responsible.** - Always look for new ways to be responsible. - Take the initiative to solve problems without being asked. - Never work for someone who does not take responsibility for their own company. ## **Crash course in Self Control** ### **The Body** - Stop pretending to be a helpless creature. You physically control all of your own limbs You control your own hands. ### **The mind** - When you are busy , engaged in living life and having real experiences and real problems you stop thinking about …(fill in the blank) - This is not emotional repression , focusing on bad things is not more authentic and real than focusing on real things. ### **Learn to say no.** - Reasons you are scared of saying no : Someone won't like you . Well maybe and maybe not. - No is healthy, no is boundaries, no is strength. - You will lose opportunities: Saying no also creates opportunities because you will be free to focus your time and energy on what you really want instead of what someone else wants. ### **Lift weights with your mind.** - We always like to think there is a hidden trick or a shortcut. - The truth is we must do the mundane , obvious work thats in front of us. It takes time and energy and is direct , hands on work. You must do it every day. - Like a muscle your willpower will become stronger the more you use it. - All of those years of slave labour will turn you into conan the barbarian. ### **The puritan work myth** - We are raised to believe that working hard for its own sake is a virtue but it is not. - The purpose of work is to get results. Always ask yourself if you could get the same results without working hard. ### **What is work?** - If you are doing something you enjoy . You are not working . - Every job will have some form of work , some part of it that you will find unpleasant. - If you are not doing something unpleasant you are not making an effort. Accept that life is a struggle. - Everyone, everywhere is struggling against something. Its why storytelling is always the story of struggle. Expect it , welcome it and manage a healthy relationship with it. ### **Make sacrifices.** - Sometimes its possible to have two things at once but sometimes its not. - There is only so much time in the day and you have a finite amount of energy. - A sacrifice is not a failure. ## THE CREATIVE GENIUS AND **Mental Health** ### **Maturity** - What is an adult ? No one else is responsible for me in any way. That means physically, emotionally, financially. No one owes me anything , ever. - If i die and no one cares that is perfectly fine. - I can't expect anyone to care about me more than i do. - I have the ultimate responsibility to look after my machine as no one else is in my body or mind. - If you could climb inside a giant robot what would you want to do with it ? Would you tell it to work a boring job and come home and watch TV every night ? Would you destroy it by pouring sugar in the gas tank ? ### **The child must die.** - “The Boy must die” - Adults are givers, creators of life. Children are needy takers. Psychological neoteny is what happens when a body grows into an adult but the mind remains a dependant child. One aspect of this is caring what other people think. - Being able to stand on your own and disagree with people is a sign of adulthood. Of course learning to work with people despite disagreements is another sign. ### **I am responsible.** - Do not seek endless advice from others. Don't blame your superiors. - Its easy to blame someone who has take responsibility of making decisions but much harder to make decisions of your own. ### **RTFM for your mind.** - Everyone should be required to study logical fallacies, cognitive biases and lateral thinking. - Logical fallacies are illogical arguments. They might appear logical on the surface but tend to involve mistakes through wordplay. - Cognitive Biases: These are strange mental behaviours THink of them as prejudices rather than simple logical errors. - Lateral thinking: This is making leaps, solving a problem backwards or sideways. Ask questions we normally wouldnt ask . ### **Losing It.** - Creative people are prone to emotional problems. To have a breakdown you need to have machinery that can breakdown in the first place. Congratulations ! You are capable of divergent thought ! - **Anxiety:** The feeling that something is wrong but i don't know what. Feels like your brain has to pee. Better to interpret it as a sign that something needs to change. Use it. - **Depression:** This is the creative mind saying “I give up”. - **Depression is addictive:** You can deconstruct everything until it has no meaning and it makes you feel smarter than everyone. Once you start expecting things to go wrong you will hope they do go wrong so you can be right about it Its like a drug, like the dark side, like a Sith Lord. - **A vicious web of entropy**: Depression is a mental state that reinforces itself. It is a cycle that will not stop until it has destroyed you . - **Solution:** Pretend you are not depressed. It is simple and obvious but it works. Get out of the house and talking to people. Take action, clean your house, take a shower, go for a jog, do some writing, listen to some Jim Rohn. Sometimes depression is just passing through like a bad flu. - **Control Freak:** “Some things you can control and some you can't . Figure it out or you are one of THEM”. - A creative career is equal parts logic and illogic. An audience will get a vague sense of if something was good or bad but they cannot tell you why. Our meticulous craftsmanship means little to them. - **Stop watching the news:** The news is manufactured to scare you, upset you, keep you watching for longer so you watch commercials. If you really need to know if everything is ok go outside and look in the sky for mushroom clouds. - **Make a physical change**: Don't get caught up in your head. If you want something to change you must take a physical action in the real world. . Wash some dishes do some pushups Move a pile of books. - Change your actual behaviour. Until then nothing has changed. - **Integrate your identity:** Be one person, stop trying to present yourself in multiple ways. “This is my professional web page, this is my fun web pages, this is my random web page”. - Integrating is all about integrity. Be ok with who you are all the time. The people you want to impress are smarter and more genuine than you think and they understand no one is a cardboard cutout. - **Social Metaphysics:** Games vs Reality. Social metaphysics is the act of replacing our direct connection to the physical world with accepted social conventions. - Question popular definitions. - **Take a Day off:** Take one full day off per week. You will be more effective if you rest. ## THE CREATIVE GENIUS AND **People** ### What the heck are friends**?** - They call without wanting something. They have inside jokes and they help when you are at your worst. - Not everyone in the world is going to like you. So what ? There are too many people out there for you to waste your time on. - Just remember to be yourself it is the only way to attract people who will appreciate you for who you are. ### **Freinds are containers.** - You will normally first become friends with people who happen to be around you . But as you mature you want to become friends with people who are wise with good intentions, mutual benefit, good decision making, investing and receiving good energy. ### **We are relationships.** - You are what you are because of what you are relative to someone else. - Be sure to relate to the right people. ### **Alienation is good.** - The more you learn about a topic, the fewer people will know that information . That is OK that is the price you pay for being an expert. - Its ok to spend a lot of time alone. Most creative people do. ### **The illusion of status.** - Do not place yourself below anyone. - What you do is just as valid and real. - Status is only determined by the ruler you are using to measure. - A person of authentic value does not need to display status , fame or wealth. ### **Personas** - When you meet someone for the first time you only see what they want you to see. You interact with a mask not a person. - Getting to know someone is the process of unmasking, for both of you. ### **Acting in real life** - You can learn a lot from role playing just “don't believe your own press” ### **Mind your own business.** - People are not as concerned with what you are doing as you think they are. - If they are it just means their own lives are boring and they are wasting energy. - “Dont waste your energy paying attention to people wasting their energy.” - You dont need to care what other people are doing you are a unique person with a unique perspective. ### **The pretence of fame and popularity.** - Are there many behaviours you take on simply because you want to project your pretend identity ? - It is exhausting to maintain an illusion. ### **The delusion of infinite scale.** - Don't build a bloated impersonal machine. Keep it small, or a proper size, service the outcome. - You don't need a massive audience. These days it's as if everything is created with the intention of being a mainstream blockbuster. Its absurd. - Dont try and overscale your audience. - Figure out how many people are going to be interested and focus on reaching those people. ### **People are broken machines.** - Machines DO follow logic. People Dont. Half of the work a human brain does is irrational. - People problems dont always have a logical solution. - You cannot tell what is going on in their chaotic mind , its almost as if they are individuals. ### **Management / Leadership** - The leader of a creative team must: Be in the trenches. Take all ideas and suggestions seriously. Be patient. Never tolerate trolls. Value the success of a project above your own power. Propose the best course of action not dictate it. Wrangle creative people and keep them on schedule. Do the random work thats left over. REcognise the contributions of the teams. Get results. ### **How to hire famous people** - As long as you can pay them something and what you are asking them to do is not embarrassing they will probably agree. Email them and try at least three times. - Once you get one involved you can get as many as you like. Its like a secret handshake. - Give them an opportunity to do something they don't normally get to do and have fun. - It helps if your project is really strange. - You will hear no more than you hear yes. Keep knocking. ### **Communication.** - Communication should be kept simple. - Always communicate on an intellectual AND AN EMOTIONAL level. - Dont try and sound smarter than you are. - if the reader doesn't understand you have failed. - A conversation is two people talking and listening to each other. > ”Keep doing nothing and when nothing happens don't be disappointed” > > - Randi Rhodes # Why Freelance ?** - No commute. No uncomfortable shoes. Keeps your technical skills sharp. You can fire your boss at anytime. - IF you are not freelancing the bulk of your existence will be consumed by following orders and suppressing your mental faculties to make someone else rich. - Employee Mindset: I have a life but i don't know what to do with it so i rent it out to someone else - Until the planet is destroyed be a good cockroach and get back to work. Someone somewhere has your dream job. Dont let the news tell you what's impossible. - Its good to work with artists and small businesses. They are excited about their project. Usually only one decision maker. More creative than working with a corporation. ## **Workflow / Organisation** ### **Organising your space.** - If don't use it you can't see it. Put everything that serves no function in the closet. Better yet. Sell it. ### **Gmail as a to-do list.** - Gmail is my to do list. If something is in your inbox it means it requires action. Any email that doesn't require action gets archived. ### **Don't call me.** - There is only one reason to talk on the phone: When the internet is broken. . - If there is business to be discussed or any technical information you want it in email. You will have a searchable trail of info so there can be no debate later about who said what. - It requires you to think before you talk. - It saves time. - The phone is an interruption. - A phone is only better than email if you want to get a feel for someones personality. ### **Email me.** - Make emails elegant and to the point. When giving instructions use bullet points. Dont hide the actionable vaguely hidden within chunks of personal text. ### **How to name your files.** - Attach your name to your files and give it a meaningful searchable name. ### **Task inertia** - Switching tasks wastes time and energy. When you are running a factory line all your tasks up in groups like an assembly line and work through them all. ### **Diminishing returns.** - In everything there comes a point where the amount of energy you invest stops yielding a substantial return. Do not tweak and fidget on the smallest details that no one will ever notice. ### **Wabi-Sabi** - This refers to the transience and imperfection of all things. Everything is in motion. Things are being made or destroyed We are all in a constant state of change. - Things are meant to serve a purpose not to be flawless. - Everything in this world is a knock off of something that is perfect. At the same time perfection itself is an illusion. ### **Done is the engine of more.** - Read the Cult of Done Manifesto. Its brilliant. Google it. ### **Outrun the bear.** - Two campers are walking through the forest and encounter a bear, it starts charging to eat the campers. Remember you don't have to outrun the bear, only the other camper. ## THE CREATIVE GENIUS AND **Business** ### **Keep the meter running.** - Always use a time clock program and log your hours. When you work for someone it doesn't matter if it is a few minutes or a few hours log it and charge them. - Your time is valuable. Sometimes free time is priceless. - Charge for “Project management. If you are reading someones email or if you are even thinking about their project, charge for it. Charge for your attention and focus. - You sell your time and attention, you don't rent it because you don't get it back . ### **Diversify your income.** - The more diversified your income streams the more freedom you will have to walk away from any situation and towards the things you want to do. - You can work for cheap or free sometimes if you get additional benefits or opportunities out of the situation. ### **Referrals: the magic word.** - If you do good work and get referrals you will never have to advertise. ### **Getting started.** - Get your factory running. Build a hurricane of busyness around yourself. People will get sucked in and start paying you. ### **Beware of people with bad ideas and money.** - Sometimes you find a client with seemingly unlimited financial resources. But they may have no connection between their goals and reality. Bad ideas are contagious. ## Y**our client sucks.** ### **Warning signs.** - Referred by a problem client. They insist on calling on the phone and never email and you need to interpret for them. They start their email with the words “As per our conversation”. They email from their iphone, prepare for confusion. ### **Bad personality types.** - **The hassler:** Nothing is easy with this person they will call 15 times a day. - **The haggler:** This guy need a discount, he doesn't even really need it he just wants one. - **The poser:** This person wants specific yet arbitrary thing. They might learn a random design rule and wonder whats wrong with you if you don't follow it. - **The hurrier:** They falsely project a sense of urgency to get you to work faster. They are desperate and disorganised. - **The compulsive writer:** You want concise directions not novels. You want bullet points, twitter style. - **The hustler:** This guy is plain dangerous. Get rid of him as soon as you can as he will drag you into all sorts of schemes that you will regret. - **The friend:** This is a haggler in disguise as they will want you to work for free. ### **Jargon and Mr. pop, the emphasizer of everything.** - A helpless design client knows just enough design jargon to use it wrong. He has no experience yet he is your boss. - Mr pop wants every single word and image to “Pop” with equal significance. - You are going to need to interpret people and deal with their lack of education and vocabulary. Its your job to educate them. ### **All freelance clients are insane.** - People make decisions for strange reasons.You can design something to the best of your ability and people will dislike certain aspects of it for no logical reason. - Pretend that your job is in a mental hospital “When he doesn’t like the green snake , i hide the green snake. ### **The return of the cargo cult.** - Beware first drafts, people fear change, even if it is a really bad idea your client may cling to it because it is the first thing they saw. ### **Avoid bureaucracy.** - Stay away from large companies. You do not want to have the need for multiple people to sign off on things as it will take too long to communicate. You want to work with a single individual or small companies where you can immediately get in touch with people in charge who can make decisions. ### **How to fire a client.** - “Hi Client. I cant afford to take on any more work right now”. Thats all it takes. - “If you want roses, Keep the weeds out” - Robert Ringer ### Creative Genius - **The Final Word** - You can't afford to let the dream die. - Is it worth it ? Only you can decide. > “Here is the secret. There are two things that you have to do . One of them is to not stop. And the other one is to keep going.” > > - Frank Zappa I highly recommend getting this book and reading it in full! [So, you’re a creative genius … now what?](https://carlkingdom.com/creativegeniusbook "https://carlkingdom.com/creativegeniusbook") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Creativity --- ### [Maximum Achievement By Brian Tracy - Notes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/maximum-achievement-brian-tracy-notes/) **Published:** February 18, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** *Notes On Maximum Achievement By Brian Tracy* ![Maximum Achievement](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/maximumachievement.jpg "maximumachievement › Sonny Brown") - Nature is neutral - She gives you back what you put in. - Fable: Many years ago, in ancient Greece, a traveller met an old man on the road and asked him how to get to Mount Olympus. The old man, who happened to be Socrates, replied by saying, "If you really want to get to Mount Olympus, just make sure that every step you take is in that direction." - Sir Isaac Newton is generally considered to be the greatest scientist who ever lived. In his later years, he was asked how it was that he, one man, had managed to make such significant contributions to the world of science. He replied: "By thinking of nothing else." - Success begins with you exercising your power of choice and using it to take systematic, purposeful control over the thoughts you hold in your conscious mind. - By rigorously disciplining yourself to talk and think about only the things you do want and refusing to dwell on those you don't; want you begin your journey towards the stars ! - To become all you can be you must live more consciously, you must become more alert, more aware and more awake. You must take more control over your own thought process so you move in the direction of your choosing rather than steering blindly on mental auto pilot. - Every experience is a positive experience if you choose to view it as an opportunity for growth and self mastery. - Life is a series of events and experiences that are conspiring towards me achieving a great goal and making a great contribution to mankind. ### Maximum Achievement - **Immutable Laws of the universe:** - **Law of Control** - You feel positive about yourself to the degree to which you feel you are in control of your own life. You apply this law by choosing consciously to view yourself as an active creative influence in your own life. - **Law of Cause and Effect** - For every effect in your life their is a specific cause. Everything happens for a reason, their are no accidents. Specific causes for success and happiness, you reap what you sow. - **Law of Belief** - Whatever you believe with feeling becomes your reality. You trigger the law of belief by believing your life and experiences are leading you towards something important. - **Law of expectations -** Whatever you expect, with confidence becomes your own, self fulfilling prophecy. Expect to be happy successful and liked. Apply this by confidently expecting to gain something worth while from everything that happens to you. Make your life into an adventure! Go around all day thinking something wonderful is about to happen ! - **Law of Attraction** - You are a living magnet, you invariably attract people and situations into your life in harmony with your dominant thoughts. Discipline yourself by keeping your thoughts on what you want and refusing to think about what you do not want. - **Law of Correspondence** - That your outer world is a reflection of your inner world. Your relationships in the outer world correspond to your "true self". Your outer world of health & income depend on the inner attitudes of your mind. - **Law of Subconscious Activity** - Any idea or thought that you accept as "true" in your conscious mind will be accepted unquestioningly by your sub-conscious mind and your sub-conscious will immediately being work to bring it into your reality. All your words, actions and body language set a pattern consistent with your dominant thoughts and goals. - **Law of Concentration** - Whatever you dwell upon, grows. Whatever you think about something the more it becomes a part of your reality. Dwell on thoughts of love, courage, hope, confidence etc and meditate on these daily. - **Law of Substitution** - Your conscious mind can only hold one thought at a time and you can substitute one thought for another. This "crowding out" principle deliberately allows you to replace a negative though with a positive thought. This allows you control of your emotional life. Stop thinking about the problem and start thinking about the Solution. ### Whatever you want, wants you - Leo Tolstoy story, tells kids to go into a garden and not think of a white rabbit and they will find the secret to happiness , they cannot do this. The white rabbit is the excuses people use. Don't make excuses ! - We are all self employed no matter who signs the paycheck. Any company you work for is your company ! - Take full responsibility for all results, successes and failures. - Holding grudges and anger towards people you feel may have hurt you is the number 1 cause of mental illness. - The law of forgiveness ! - The inability to forgive lies at the root of resentment, guilt and allot of negative emotions. - Put your desire to live a good life and have a good character higher than any negative emotion. - Forgive your parents. Forgive everyone else. Forgive Yourself. - Overtime in your life you create your innermost convictions of what is possible of you. ### **Steps to Activating your Subconscious Mind** 1. **Verbalisation** - Articulate in words the desired outcome. 2. **[Visualisation ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-champions-culture-cancer/ "Greg Nelson on Coaching MMA Champions, Positive Culture and Conquering Cancer")**- Creating a clear mental picture of what the outcome will look like. 3. **Emotionalisation** - Creating the emotion and feeling of satisfaction and pleasure that would accompany the resolved situation. 4. **Releasing all concern** - While you turn your mind to other things. 5. **Realisation** -The appearance of the solution the achievement of your goal. ## The Comfort Zone - Push yourself outside your comfort zone, Do this consciously otherwise your subconscious will always try to keep you in it. - If something is worth doing right, then its worth doing awkwardly at first. - Success = Goals, and all else is commentary. - Learn to set out and achieve goals naturally. - Your only limitation is your desire, how badly do you want it ? - You are equipped with a success mechanism and a failure mechanism. Your failure mechanism is your natural tendency to follow the path of least resistance, your impulse towards immediate gratification, with little or no concern for the long term consequences of your actions. Your success mechanism can override your failure mechanism. Your success mechanism is triggered by a goal. The bigger your goal and the more intensely you desire it the more likely you will be to exert your powers of self discipline and willpower, the more capable you will be at making yourself do the things you need to do to get where you want to go. - "First Decide exactly what it is you want. Most people never do that. Second determine the price you will have to pay to get it and then resolve to pay that price" - H.L. Hunt, his formulae for success. - You have to pay the price for success in advance. When you have sown you will reap. Cause and effect. Action, Reaction. - The Greatest single enemy for your potential for greater success and achievement is your [comfort zone](https://www.sonnybrown.net/adisa-banjoko-blending-hip-hop-chess-brazilian-jiu-jitsu/ "Blending Hip Hop, Chess & BJJ With Adisa Banjoko of the Hip Hop Chess Federation"), your tendency to get stuck in a rut and never change, even positive, that will get you out of it. - All growth requires change and change is inevitable. Goals allow you to control the direction of change in your life allowing it to be self determined. - People who do not have goals are doomed forever to work for those that do. - The fear of failure is because people do not understand that t is impossible to succeed without failure. - Success is a numbers game. There is a direct relationship between the number of things you attempts and your ability of ultimately succeeding. - It took Thomas Edison 11,000 experiments before he discovered the carbon filament for the light bulb. A journalist once asked him why he persisted, he said "you do not understand the way the world works, I have successfully identified 5000 ways that will not work, that just puts me 5000 ways closer to the way that will work". - Vince Lombardi once said on losing a football game "We didn't lose, we just ran out of time". - Accept temporary setbacks and obstacles as the inevitable price to pay for any great success in life. ### Maximum Achievement - **12 Step Goal Setting System** 1. **Desire** - Burning, Intense, Desire. The motivational force of power to overcome the fear or inertia that holds most people back. Dwell on your desires till they override and push aside your fears. Desires are personal, decide what YOU really want ! 2. **Belief -** [Conviction ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/heath-pedigo-submission-fighting-interview/ "Heath Pedigo on Daisy Fresh Jiu-Jitsu & Pedigo Submission Fighting For the Future")! You must absolutely believe it is possible to achieve your goal. You must have complete faith that you desire the goal and it will come to you exactly when you are ready for it. Nurture your faith and beliefs until they deepen to an absolute conviction that your goal is attainable. Belief is the catalyst to activate your subconscious. 3. **Write It Down** - Goals that are not in writing are not goals at all they are merely wishes. When you write a goal down you crystallise it and make it tangible. 4. **Make a list of all the ways you will benefit from achieving the goal** - Reasons why are forces that intensify your desire. Motivation depends on your motive and the more reasons you have the more motivated you will be. Your reasons why must be uplifting and inspiring, they must be big enough to drive you onward. It is when you have big reasons for achieving your goal that you develop the intensity and purpose that makes you irresistible. If your reasons are big enough, your beliefs solid enough and your desires intense enough nothing can stop you. 5. **Analyse your starting point** - Determining your starting point gives you a baseline to measure your progress and lets you know exactly how much you have to do to achieve. The clearer you are about where you are coming from the more likely you will be to get where you want to go. 6. **Set a deadline** - Set a deadline on all tangible goals. People resist setting deadlines for fear of not meeting them.Think about your goal by projecting forward till after you have completed it and imagine the steps you took to get there. Then think backwards from the achievement to the goal. 7. **Make a list of all the obstacles that stand between you and the achievement of your goal -** If there are no obstacles it is probably not a goal and more likely an activity. Make a list of obstacles then arrange them in order of biggest to smallest. The biggest obstacle is your rock. You will need to remove this first. Obstacles are the flip side of success and achievement. Your rock may be internal or external - Be honest ! 8. **Identify the Additional information you will need to achieve your goal** - The most successful people have more essential information than others. Make a list of all the information, skills, talents, abilities and experience will need then make a plan to learn, buy, borrow or attain these as quick as possible. 9. **Make a list of all the people who's help and co-operation you will require** - TO accomplish anything worthwhile you will need other people, people will help you accomplish your goals once you have shown them a willingness to help achieve theirs. Make a list and order it ! 10. **Make a plan** - Write out in detail what you want, when you want it , why you want it then make a list of activities ordered by priority. Many activities can be worked on simultaneously or others have to be done in sequence. Once you have all the actions listed in value for the plan, then START! The more detailed and better organised your plans the more likely you are to reach your goals exactly as you have desired them. 11. **Visualisation** -Create a clear mental picture of your goal as it would appear if it was already achieved. Project this picture over and over again in the screen of your mind, with emotion ! 12. **Make the decision in advance that you will never give up !** - Back your goals and plans with persistence and determination. Never consider the possibility of failure. Never think about quitting, hold on no matter what happens of all qualities to develop your ability to persevere is the most important. - Mark each day with an accomplishment of some kind ! - Accept the powers of your super conscious mind! - Learn from every experience, refuse to get upset, keep your mind calm and focused on your goals. How to bring all the powers of the superconscious mind to bear on a single issue 1. Define the problem or goal clearly. Preferably in writing. Exactly what is it you want to achieve, exactly what is the problem ? 2. Gather as much information as you can, do research ask questions, actively seek the answer you need. 3. Consciously try to solve the problem by reviewing all the information you have gathered. 4. If you still have not solved the problem consciously then turn it over to your super conscious mind. The way you would a balloon and let it float away. 5. Get your conscious mind busy elsewhere. Turn you attention away. and let your super conscious mind take care of your problem for you. ### **Social Skills** - Great way to raise an objection is to put it into the mouth of an imaginary third person e.g. "What would our customers think if they knew that" or "Wouldn't someone in this position think this" etc. - Smile - Express appreciation - Express approval - Correct in private, praise in public. - Active listening. - Practice the art of conversation! Overall It's a great book on goal setting and achievment from [Brian Tracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Tracy "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Tracy"). ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [An Introduction To Strategic Thinking](https://www.sonnybrown.net/introduction-to-strategic-thinking-summary/) **Published:** September 1, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![An introduction to strategic thinking](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/An-introduction-to-strategic-thinking.jpg "An introduction to strategic thinking › Sonny Brown")An introduction to strategic thinking - Strategy and strategic thinking have their origins in ancient warfare. - Strategic thinking also puts emphasis on the future and how we talk about and maneuver in the future. - A more general view of strategic thinking is that it is about knowing. This gets complicated when you consider the nature of the future is unknowable so to understand strategic thinking we will need to understand the many different ways it means to know something. - This relates to the question of "modes of knowing" or "modes of thought" that philosophers have studied for a long time. ### **Game Theory AS AN INTRODUCTION TO Strategic Thinking** - Strategic thinking is used in a setting where the outcomes depend not only on your actions but also the actions of others. - Game theory cannot tell you what your goals in life should be. But once you know what your goals are then perhaps game theory can help you reach them - Play "[The grade game](http://oyc.yale.edu/sites/default/files/summary-of-first-class.pdf)". - Do not play a strictly dominated strategy because instead if you play the strategy that dominates it you will do better in any case. - Rational choice can lead to outcomes that are inefficient. A great example of this is "The prisoners dilemma". - "You can't get what you want unless you know what you want". As a piece of logic, this is false but as a strategy this works. - The essence of strategic thinking is the ability to out yourself in you opponents shoes, workout what their payoffs are and try to figure out what they will do. #### [Economists at the University of Dayton and Texas A&M released a study called "Aggression in Mixed Martial Arts: An Analysis of the Likelihood of Winning a Decision."](http://ise.tamu.edu/people/faculty/johnson/AggressionMMA.pdf) - This study looked at fight metric data and concluded that a fighter that throws more overall strikes is more likely to win a judge's decision regardless of if the strikes land. ### **Strategy as Scenarios and Futures** - The real voyage of discovery comes in not seeking new landscapes but in seeking new eyes - Marcel Proust - The seeds of the future are in the present we just have to be able to see them. - "The art of the long view." - When we.make decisions about the future, we are operating on a mental map of how the world works The quality on these decisions will depend on the quality of the map. - If you get your facts wrong y9ou get your map wrong, if you get your map wrong, you do the wrong thing. - Once you believe a mental map, it is very hard to change. The strategy will involve being able to think differently. - You have to understand the interplay between what you want to accomplish and what the world will allow. - What we tend to do is take one model of the world and vary it slightly to give us our range of possibilities. But we need to use multiple models to get our variance. - To see the big changes, it is insufficient to take one view of the world and only vary it slightly. - This has to do with changing how we think. We often have over confidence, think from the inside out, not see the whole story, frame the questions wrong. - If you haven't thought about you are unlikely to see it in time. ### **Plotting your STRATEGIC THINKING scenarios** - Scenarios are not predictions or strategies. They are imagined alternative futures in which your decisions could play out in. - The should be designed to highlight different risks, opportunities and threats that face your strategic issue. - Scenarios need to be written in an engaging narrative style, well constructed and believable plots so that that the people reading them will become deeply involved and then will make better attempts to understand them. **Finding a few plots** - You want to create a team of people who have thorough knowledge of the situation but come from as diverse a background and skill fields as possible. People with different intellectual disciplines and cultures so you have the widest range of perspectives as possible. - Getting the widest range of perspective is the key to success and the exclusion of unorthodox thinkers is the key to failure. **Decision Focus** - You then need to identify the key decision that needs to be made and develop a deep understanding of questions to ask about it. - Keep your time frame in mind. Your questions can change over time. - Not all scenarios have to be decision focused and can be more general, but you will still need to develop relevant questions in the same way. **Brainstorming a list of key factors** - Make sure no idea is immediately dismissed. - Try to identify driving forces and trends. - You five general categories of external forces are technological, social, environmental, political and economic. **Distinguishing Predetermined Elements from uncertainties.** - You must identify what trends are inevitable and are not likely to change. These will be trends in each of your scenarios. - Uncertain trends or factors must also be identified. You must look at how uncertain you may be about this factor and also how important this factor will be. **Identifying a few scenario logics.** - Figuring out which trends and forces are the most important will take extensive discussion. - Two possible methods for figuring out the basic ideas for a small number of scenarios are inductive and deductive. - Inductive is less structured and involves a lot of free-flowing group discussion to reach a conclusion. - The deductive approach uses simple techniques to create a 2 x 2 matrix of the two most critical uncertainties. **The Inductive approach** - This has two variants. One is called emblematic events and the other is called the official future. - In emblematic events you will come up with events that are typical of different scenarios, You will build up scenarios from single plot points. - In the official future, you come up with a vision of the future with very little surprising changes taking place. Then brainstorm variations of the official future with unexpected changes taking place. **The deductive approach** - With the deductive approach you want to get a priority of all your factors and trends and then work out what the two most critical uncertainties are. - One you have your two most critical forces you set these up in a 2x2 matrix. Using a matrix assures that your scenarios are different in a logical way and that the most important factors are included in all scenarios, **Fleshing out scenario plots.** - There is no single correct way to flesh out a scenario plot. - Just predicting change will not be enough you have to consider the reactions to that change. - Systems thinking is useful for deepening the plots. Narrative development is good for lengthening the plots into stories. Characters are good for populating the scenario. - Systems thinking: Instead of just focusing on the individual events in a plot point you look at the underlying systems that cause these events to happen. The mechanisms and patterns behind events can be more beneficial to understand than just the event itself. - Building Narratives: This is fleshing out your scenario with a beginning, middle and end. It is giving the story behind how your plot points will likely weave together over the time period in your scenario. - Characters: While you want to avoid building your entire plot around aj 9ndividual characters living in your scenario are great ways into convey your plot and the importance of you events **Typical Plots** - You want all your plots to be different yet remain relevant to your central question. - Effective plots make people rethink their assumptions about the future. - Winners and losers: A common plot point that see the scenario as a zero sum game. This sees the plot as being a conflict between two forces. - Crisis and Response: A challenge will arise in your plot and adaptation to the challenges will either be met or not met. If adaption is met then a new set of challenges or a new situation with winners and losers may arise. - Good News/ Bad News: Make sure to include both good and bad elements in your future scenarios, - Evolutionary Change: Taking its cues from biological evolution the idea is that change will occur in all systems over time. - Revolution: A sudden erupt overhall and change of circumstances in the plot. - Tectonic Change: Deep structural chnges which will produce massive resuolts. Like the moving of tectonic plates causing an earthquake. - Cycles: Looking at the tming and rythem and the cycles which all factors move in. - Infinite possibility: he best case scenario where infinite growth wsill occour. - The lone ranger; a David vs goliath story where you pit yourself against the rest of the world, - Generations: Takes into account the new generations born and generational changes between them. - Perpetual Transitions: Looks as change to be infinite and continuous but that adaption wiool not be uniform. **Wild Cards** - As the name suggests these are surprises that can completely overhaul the scenario. Like a natural disaster. - If you construct a four scenario matrix you may want to add a fith scenario with an out of the box wildcard scenario. **Tips for scenarios** - Do not simply design a high, middle and low case for your scenarios. Expand upoAn the question further. - Avoid just designing a most likley cenario. The idea is to look at the scenario from as many viewpoints as possible. - Avoid making too many scenarios You can get caught in a trap of just making too many small variations on a theme. Workout your biggest priority's and build complex scenarios around those, - Name your scenarios something memorable and catchy. This will help sell your ideas and get people to invest time into them. **Winning in an Uncertain Future through Scenario Planning** ### **Thinking about Stories and Metaphors** - Metaphors allow us to percieve the world in different ways which will help us to think strategically. ### ### [Metaphor and Design](https://anthrostrategist.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/metaphor-and-design/) ### [The Magic of Metaphor: What Children’s Minds Reveal about the Evolution of the Imagination](http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2013/08/19/james-geary-i-is-an-other-children-metaphor/) I hope you enjoyed An introduction to strategic thinking! [Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/ "Coaching") ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [Self Made Wealth by Eben Pagan - SummarY & Notes](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-made-wealth-eben-pagan-summary/) **Published:** August 17, 2015 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** *The things that you need to do to create wealth for yourself in your life are counterintuitive.* ## Principles of Self Made Wealth - We are wired for a time that do doesn't exist anymore. The concept of "Wealth" is a brand new invention, evolutionarily speaking. Another recent invention is planning for a long-term future. - We are not naturally wired to deal very well with money. We have an unhealthy emotional relationship with money. We have bad cultural and societal programming when it comes to money. - The Money isn't the wealth; it is just the medium we use to exchange the value of one asset to another. Money isn't real, so we screw up when we try to get it and use it. - We have poor habits with money. We use cash unconsciously. We make spending decisions at the moment. Using the money, costs you money. - Wealthy people buy and invest in assets; poor people invest in liabilities. Wealthy people invest in assets. Wealthy people invest in knowledge. Wealthy people invest in relationships. Money is not an asset. Money is not the wealth. - Borrowing money is the ultimate trap.The modern indentured servant program is not the way to create wealth ![Self Made Wealth Notes an Summary](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/selfmadewealthnotes-300x168.jpg "Self Made Wealth Notes an Summary › Sonny Brown") ## Becoming a Financial Adult **FIAT Currency:** Currency or money that is not backed by anything. Invented by a criminal named John Law. **DEBT:** We went from using debt as a tool to now basing our whole financial system on it. Debt does not serve us. **CONSUMERISM:** Ideas such as "Buy things to express yourself, get attention, make yourself feel good", but it does not work. **ENTITLEMENT:** The modern business model is now a job. The old paradigm of an entitlement of job for life, pension and retirement is no longer. We will have to turn ourselves into someone valuable that other will seek out. On average most people spend more money per year than they make. This is unsustainable. We have become a wants to be based culture. We buy things, so people think we are cool, whereas we used to only buy things we needed to sustain us. We have been behaving like spoiled financial teenagers, and it is time to become fiscal adults. Spending vs. Investing - When you spend money, you are buying liabilities, things that have no long-term value. - When you invest in something, you are taking your money and trading it for something that has lots of intrinsic values and goes up over time. Assets vs. Liabilities - An asset is something that has intrinsic value, over time its values also grow, and it will throw off cash flow and other value. - A liability does not have intrinsic value and will go down over time and can consume more of your money time and energy. How to invest your money is usually counter-intuitive, the obvious thing is to spend. Needs vs. Wants - You will have an intuitive compass to know if something is a Need or a Want. If you want to build real wealth, then you must first make a switch to buying things based on wants to needs. **WEALTH MANTRA: I invest in only what I need.** ## Creating a wealth game that you can win: - "The story of how we arrived at our current picture of the universe is the story of understanding how we see" - Stephen Hawking - "The human brain sees thing that are most familiar to it" - Gregory Burns (Book: Iconoclast) - Our mental model of reality is our reality. - It's not your fault that you were never taught how to handle money, to think about money or to have financial literacy on how to build wealth over time BUT it is 100 percent your responsibility how what I know about money and wealth and how I behave around money and wealth. - It is not my fault I was not taught the way things work, but it is my responsibility to work it out now. - Creating Wealth: You are creating new value and its assets that are creating value and its long term. - It is harder to keep wealth than it is to make it. Once you come up with a system to create wealth, you then need to come up with a system to keep it. - Using money prevents us from understanding money. Because we are using money every day, it prevents us from seeing its true, complete nature. - The game of using "money as the value" is fixed against us, and we cannot win if we do not understand this. ## Create your reality: - Money: Is money a cause or an effect? Most people see money as a cause (I need money before I can cause anything to happen), wealthy people see it as an effect or as a side effect of creating value. - Wealthy people do not have the paradigm of running a scam for your ship to come in, and then sitting on the beach and doing nothing the rest of your life. They want to work continually to increase the value because it is something they enjoy. - Get rich quick schemes never get anyone rich. - In modern times, the best investment is in education, skills and relationships. Knowledge is the new currency. - The more "stuff" you own, the less success you can enjoy. Because the more management hassle you have. - The more contributions I make to the world and other people the more I will be personally satisfied. - The more I say no, the more successful I become. Don't spread yourself too thin, instead focus like a laser beam. It is also good to build your personal boundary. - We do not live in a world of scarce resources, because of innovation and creation of value we live in a world of abundance. Get into the creation of value rather than extract value. - Wealthy people are not trying to impress everyone. - Don't look down on what you have. Look for what you have and be appreciative and grateful. This will free up allot of energy to focus on creating your reality and creating value for others. - We can create success for ourselves, and anyone can do it through the power of the mastermind group. ## Taking control of your self-image and seeing yourself as a creator of wealth: - Identification: When humans identify with an idea or a concept we actually at a level in our minds cannot tell the difference anymore between the ideas and ourselves. If we identify with a group or ideology, we begin to identify at a very deep level that our self and the group or ideology are the very same thing. This is also true for physical items like a car. People will see an idea and themselves as the same thing. - Looking at things in a frozen or static way robs our minds of a chance to involve. - NLP - Denomilization : Is where you take a process of taking a freezing of something "this is the way it is" to something flowing "this is the way is is evolving". - Avoid saying things like "I am" or "it is". - We can change our story. We can change our mythology. We can construct a self-image that can continuously evolve over time. - New "Money Maps": - We live in a world of unlimited, abundant resources, all we have to do is to learn to create value for other people. - We live in a world and a universe of unlimited opportunity. - I will be a constantly evolving creator of value. I can change my beliefs and self-image and will use that power to create value for others. - Do what you know is right. - I will be a creator of value. - What does the other person think is valuable so I can bring it to them. - A flowing creating evolving creator of value. ## The beliefs of wealth, using your mind to change your mind: - Money isn't wealth. Money can be turned into wealth and wealth can be turned into money. - Modern Miracle: We can change our beliefs. - The first type of goal: Achievement orientated goal that is external. e.g. I want to make a million dollars, or I want to buy this car. - Another type of goal: Mastery goal. e.g. learning how to do something or mastering a particular skill. - Focus less on achievement goals and concentrate more on mastery goals. - The first skill we want to master is the skill of creating value for others in all situations. Once you have mastered this, you can then figure out how to turn that into wealth. - The concept of failure is imaginary. - The notions of "Problem" and "Failure" are two of the most limiting concepts that we humans have created. - You can eliminate any failure or problem in your life by learning from it. - "Problems" and "Failures" are just things that people made up. - Another level to think of money at is currency. It is a tool that allows us to make transactions very quickly. - Another level to think of Money at is capital. - Money is a tool. It is something you use to create value in the world. - As a general principle in life what you focus on expands. But when you focus on money it doesn't expand, if you want money to grow you must concentrate on creating value for others. ## The psychology of wealth prevention, how our emotions prevent us from becoming wealthy and what to do about it : - Crowd Psychology : Negative emotions inside one person directs them in a certain way but negative emotions inside a hole group of people affects the individual at a much deeper level. - My body and emotions are using my mind to get what they want. - We are all constantly in the middle of self-deception all the time, but this keeps us from going crazy if we where to perceive everything simultaneously we would not be able to handle it. But it can go too far. - "Humans have an infinite capacity for self-deception" - Tony Schwartz - "Self-deception covers its own tracks" - Daniel Goleman - Confabulation : People make up story's about what happened always. My emotions will not only drive me to do irrational things - When you do something that is counter productive your mind will make up a reason as to why that happened and you will confabulate a whole story about why you are not responsible but this is just the self-deception that the mind uses to keep you safe and healthy gone wrong. We need to start noticing this and be aware of this mechanism and if we start noting it we can become more free of it and start using it to weave more positive story's and about how we learned from experience. - We are making decisions at an unconscious level all the time. We make decisions unconsciously, it then lets out conscious mind know. - This decision making process is largely driven by our emotions which are driven by our programs. - Most of the decisions we make are made unconsciously, then filtered up to our conscious mind and then we have the illusion that we are making the decision because we confabulate a story. - Secondary Pay Off: It is possible that the reason I do not have the financial success I would like is because of the secondary payoff of keeping myself poor. - The Story: Gets people to feel sorry for us, gets us pity, gets us to make excuses for not succeeding, Think the donkey from Winnie the Pooh, he gets allot of attention from complaining. - Not having to endure disapproval, ridicule and shame: If you start becoming more successful the people around you will start thinking "Whoa that's weird" and will often criticise and disapprove. - What's the payoff I am getting from keeping myself unsuccessful financially? - When humans are in the presence of an influencing factor, we automatically respond without having to think about it. - One of the weapons of influence is Reciprocity: "the old give and take", if someone does something nice for us then we feel we have to do something nice for them. Even if it is not "equal". - Authority: If we are in the presence of someone in authority we will automatically do what they say as they are the authority. (See Stanly Milgram experiments). - In western society the things that we are "triggered by" to spend our money on are created by other people and made up by large organisations after figuring out all these influence mechanisms to get humans to do what they want. - How do I control my emotions so that they affect my conscious mind, so I make the decisions that I want to make, so I do what I want to do automatically? - The justice mechanism will get in the way of financial success as to give away massive value you will have to do things that are unfair to yourself. ## Fear, the ultimate emotional block to creating wealth: - If you spend most of your life living in fear, you are going to find it very difficult to have any lasting wealth in your life. - "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take in life" - Wayne Gretsky - "I've missed over 9000 shots in my career, I've lost 300 games and on 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the winning shot for my team and I have missed, I have failed over and over in life, and that's why I have succeeded" - Michael Jordan - To create big success in life, you have to overcome your fear and go for it. - What is fear? Emotions are kind of like channels that we put our mind and body on, if you are under the influence of one emotion, then it changes how you see the world, interpret it and react. How you would understand an event would be entirely different depending if you were in a state of ecstatic joy or fear. - The fear mechanism in biologically natural, but maybe in the modern age it is working at the wrong times, and what was meant to be the ultimate protector is now the ultimate prison. - Fear is expected to be brief. - Fear is meant to be a servant of intuition. - If you are feeling fear in your life, it is almost certain evidence that that thing you are feeling isn't happening. When an emergency happens you are looking to escape, running, dealing with the moment, you are not feeling fear. - Simple binary model, higher self and lower self. We know when we are in our higher self when we are positive and know everything is going to be okay. When you are in your lower self, you are suffering fear and pessimism. When you are in your lower self you should not be making any important decisions, do not communicate anything important and do not take any significant actions. When you are in your higher self that is when you need to make important decisions, that is when you need to take decisive actions. When you are in your lower self, realise it, acknowledge it , don't judge it and don't act on fear. - Whenever you feel yourself going into your lower self, notice it, and then make it your top priority to get back to your higher self. - If you put apes in a zoo, they become lethargic, depressed and stop acting like themselves. We have voluntarily put ourselves in the human zoo. - It is now rare for humans to experience fear naturally, so we often look for an opportunity to feel fear e.g. scary movie's, extreme sports, etc. - We have to wake up to the reality that we are allowing fear to dominate our lives and allowing anxiety to exist at a low level. - The general news is one of the most destructive forces we humans have invented. Nearly all news storeys are negative where in reality almost all experiences we will have are positive. It irrationally skews the perception of reality to that of negative experiences. It is not an accurate representation of reality. It gives excuses not to act, to feel like victims, etc. - Negative Gossip creates a feedback loop of negative emotions, fear and anxiety. - What is worry? Negative emotions combined with mental planning scenario about the future. When you are in a negative emotion and think about the future, you will think of a negative future. This will paint a negative future and put us into more fear. - The general news, gossip and worry all put us into fear. If we can eliminate these from our life, we can pull ourselves up into our higher self and start seeing the world in a more positive way. - The two side of fear: The most common concern in the modern world is the fear of failure. Another kind of fear is the fear of success. - If you become a success financially, what are some of the things that will happen that you fear? You must address these and notice them when they come up. Accept yourself, acknowledge it then make the decision. Take the responsibility, push through to success. - One type of financial fear is the fear of loss; another kind is one that prevents us from doing things for creating wealth. - Humans are bad investors. The amateur investor will hold onto a stock when it goes down because we are afraid of loss. Conversely when a stock starts to rise we sell it because we begin to make a bit of profit, and we sell it because we fear to lose that benefit. A professional investor does the opposite, if it starts to go down they sell the stock, if it begins to go up they hold onto it cause they know it could be one of the few that goes way up. - We do not want to have our fear stop us from doing something that creates value. - When something goes wrong when it is an absolute emergency it is very very very rare and even when it does happen it can typically wait an hour or two. - You have to overcome fear and the justice mechanism. You should not be afraid to give away your best ideas. You will never have enough time to implement all your many great ideas. - Don't be afraid that you can't create value. You can ALWAYS create more value. **Fear Deprogramming Steps:** 1. Don't watch, read or pay attention to the general news. 2. No more negative gossip. Build relationships with people that do not have the need to talk negatively about people in idle conversation. Cultivate relationships that speak positively of others be wary of people that speak negatively of others. 3. Eliminate worry over finances. Stop worrying about finances and go create some value in the world. You are not going to make good decisions when you are worrying; you are not going to raise your self-esteem by worrying. Go create value and immediately do whatever it takes to get back to your higher self. ## The difference between wealth and happiness and how to create both: - Why do we want wealth? - There is an enormous difference between wanting to get away from being poor and creating value and wealth. - The nature of happiness: - Happy is an emotion, the feeling that you get when something fortunate happens; it is real and possible but also temporary. - Happiness is the long term sense of being happy. But it is not physically possible to have long-term happiness. Because Happy is an emotion, and all emotions are temporary. So if you are chasing happiness, you will get very frustrated, as a human you just cannot experience one emotion all the time. - What we can have that is even better than happiness is fulfilment, and underlying feeling of success, it will still be punctuated by positive and negative emotions, but fulfilment the aim. - One of the keys to satisfaction is to realise it is not a temporary emotion. It is a combination of how you see the world, yourself and situations. Working on a process of improving yourself, achieving the "Flow state", self-reliance, realising everything in the world will be OK. - The road to fulfilment is not through happiness or wealth. - To get to that real feeling of peace and satisfaction with life, you can't get there through money, wealth, or emotions of feeling happy. If you try, it will keep you distracted and frustrated for a long time, and you will never get there. - One way to move towards fulfilment is to reduce and minimise our suffering as much as possible. - The difference between pain and suffering: Suffering is woven into life, is is a part of life. Pain is also a part of life and is woven into life. You cannot avoid pain in this world, it is part of life, but suffering is something else entirely. - The road to bliss involves detachment. Everything in this world is temporary, getting attached to things will lead to pain. - Pain x Resistance = Suffering - Pain is a part of life, but suffering is optional. - Reducing your created suffering is possibly the most powerful thing you can do to usher in fulfilment and satisfaction. - It is even possible for humans to create suffering from pain over things that have not even happened !!! Just relax, accept and flow with the events that happen! DO does not experience suffering in advance of pain. Be water! - Most of us prevent real fulfilment in our lives because we are creating massive suffering. - What humans have been forgetting lately in our modern culture, is that joy is built by doing things that are completely in contrary to consumerism. To create fulfilment we have to look at our natural gifts, form strong social bonds, improve ourselves from the inside, taking care of and teaching children, getting into shape,learning art and contributing to other people's lives. - The consumerist lifestyle doesn't work. You were born with everything you need to be fulfilled; you do not need to buy it. - If you bring a more peaceful, joyful and satisfied person to life, it will be easier to create wealth. - The paradox of choice: Two types of decision when buying something, Maximising and Satisficing - Maximising: looking at every possible option, weighing up all the variables and looking at what the best choice would be and making the purchase. - Satisfying: Looking at what you want to get out of something, looking at the options and choosing something that meets our needs and are satisfied with it. - If you want to experience, allot of emotional pain and be unsatisfied then be a maximiser. Maximising is the road to dissatisfaction in life. - If you want to create more satisfaction, then develop the habit of satisficing. Find something that is a good fit for you, make choices based on your needs and not making sure that you universally get the best possible option out of every single thing available. - The Gap: We get an idea of what we think we would like , be it how much wealth, the perfect body, relationships, something that might not even be possible and then compare ourselves to it and then feel upset because we do not meet our unrealistic ideals. - The flip side of this is looking back to where we started and then looking at how much progress we have made. This will build self-esteem and self-worth and paves the way to more positive emotions. - How to get money, wealth and long-term satisfaction and fulfilment: The best way to get all of these things is to align your wealth goal with creating a better reality for other people and creating a better world in general. - You as an individual are just a tiny piece of the big picture, of the wealth equation. - The planet and our species will punish the attempt to get, control or consume all the resources from one's good or power. - Align your vision for creating wealth and creating wealth for yourself with creating wealth for others and creating wealth for the world and creating a better world. - What is your vision for a better world? - The formula for creating fulfilment while creating wealth is aligning your vision for how the world can be better, generate wealth for the world, creating wealth for other people around you then creating wealth for yourself. - Once you align all these things and get clear on all of these then you drastically increase the chances of yourself becoming wealthy dramatically, you are contributing, your wealth becomes wealth for the world, your individual creation of wealth literally becomes a better future. That will give you an unyielding motivation. ## Inner wealth creation and how inner wealth creates outer wealth: - "Every public victory is preceded by a private victory" - Stephen Covey - "It is crucial to learn how to accumulate wealth and assets over time" - Napoleon Hill - "Your external world is really like a printout of what you have going on in the inside" - Harv Ecker - "Thoughts are things" - Napoleon Hill - "We become what we think about" - The Strangest Secret - Integrity: A critical factor when it comes to creative value and wealth in your life. - Integrity is the alignment of your thoughts, your words and your actions. - "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and 5 minutes to destroy it" - Warren Buffet - Financial Integrity: The wise use of value, money and assets over an extended period of time. The consistent creation of value over an extended period. A financial strategy that you commit to and stay the course on over a long period of time. - Receiving: The ability to be right here in the present moment as someone else is contributing something to your life. It's the capacity to be present and fully receive without needing to explain, deflect it, make a joke about it, minimise it, push it aside or think now I owe you one. To stand in the present moment and completely receive the gift someone is giving you. - When you are not receiving then, you, are taking something away from the person who is trying to give to you. - What stops us from receiving? A feeling of deserving and a feeling like we do not have permission. - Deserving: Will feel like we don't deserve this - Daily Affirmations: I give me permission to receive fully any gifts or contributions that are offered to me. I deserve all of the gifts and all the things that are contributed to my life, and, I receive them entirely. - The ability to receive teaches us the lesson of contribution. When we are receiving, it gives us the opportunity to contribute. - Start receiving thanks, truly start receiving when people say thanks. When you say "Your Welcome," mean it genuinely, from the heart and heartfelt. - 6 Success Emotions: if you can create these and combine them at any time you need them they will make you an unstoppable force. - Desire: Desire is an emotion you can cultivate and build inside of yourself. Wealth creation is a long term game, it requires persistence and desire is something that will help you stay in the game. "Burning desire for riches is critical if you want to create wealth" - Napoleon Hill. Focus on what it is you want to create, keep focusing on it and imagine it as if it was true. Every day you get up in the morning imagine the outcome you want, imagine it happening right now then going out into the world and making it happen, also before you go to sleep. - Responsibility: Most people walk through life not taking responsibility for what happens around them, always projecting the blame outside themselves, this is called the victim mindset. The better way is to take responsibility for everything that happens in your life. Say "I am responsible!". The way to get this mature adult emotion of trust, say "I am responsible!". - Commitment: "99% is hard as hell, but, 100% is easy". If we are 99% committed, then there is always 1% of doubt in the background, but when we go to 100% commitment then the answer is always easy if we question if we are going to do it or not. Saying "I am going to figure this out, I am going to get this done." say the words to yourself "I am going to figure this out, I am going to do whatever it takes.". - Optimism: People who are consistent winners can manufacture their optimism. How do you create your optimism? Look at the future scenario you are looking to build, then look at all the challenges you are currently facing, then look at the challenges you are facing and re-see them as the causes for you getting to your future scenario. See the challenges you face as the reasons for your success. - Gratitude: Gratitude is appreciation. Start appreciating how wonderful I have it. Understand my position in life. - Faith: When you know your truth and, it is also the right thing for the world. It is something that only you can know. Only I can be the only one to have this knowing experience. Faith is built over time; its is something that is cultivated and developed over a long time. The more you find your truth, seek to understand and look for a better reality in the future and the more you know that you will grow and survive in the world. Having faith in your desire to create value that this is the path to lead you to your promise land. - By combining these six emotions, you will be unstoppable. - Quick Mindset: If I show up trying to "get something" from people generally they will brush me off, but if I am interested in helping their inner reality, to make them happier, give them more confidence, make them less confused you will be able to make incredible amounts of value. ## Outer Game: Stopping self-sabotage, why habits are the key to creating long-term financial success: Get rid of any ideas of "Get rich quick" schemes, generate wealth over time. "No matter how far down the wrong road you have gone, turn back" - Turkish proverb Top wealth prevention habits that work well: - Buying with credit cards or with debt. - Buying new cars. - Car payments. - Buying is rapidly depreciating assets. - Buying liabilities. - Impulse spending. - Fear based credit card accumulation. - Switch from a mindset of " I'll believe it when I see it "to "I'll see it when I believe it". Then turning to a reality of I am going to create it! - "Trust, but verify" - Ronald Reagan. Believe that you will create wealth for yourself, and then check that you are doing the things to create it. - Ask yourself the question how do I keep myself on track for 10, 20, 30 years. - We have to behave the way we want to believe and then get around others who behave the way we want to think so that they influence us. - When we have awareness what we need to do is take that focus to put things in place to create habits and rituals, so we do the new behaviours every single day. - The biggest habit of wealth prevention is the habit of "Instant Gratification". For instance "The goose and the golden eggs", if you can delay gratification you will achieve more. - Life is hard if you live it the easy way and easy if you live it the hard way! Impulse control! - When the instance comes up when we feel we "need" to buy something, just experience it and don' resist and don't turn it into suffering. But don't buy things on impulse, only buy things you plan to buy. On minor purchases wait at least 7 - 10 days, major purchases wait 30 days, really major purchases wait at least 3 - 6 months. - Avoid debt like the plague. Pretend debt is the black plague. - The more wealth you want to create in the future the more you need to accept and actualize the concept that you can survive on much less. In fact, you can thrive on much less. - Most of the things you think you need to buy you simply don't need. Do not indulge your impulses on a whim. - Think about what happens if someone who eats junk food every day. They become unfit and unhealthy. - Habits that keep up poor: Buying consumables and rapidly depreciating assets. Consumable: Something you buy then uses and all the value has disappeared. Rapidly depreciating assets: New TV's, anything that loses value quickly. Liabilities: something that will cost you more and more money over time, maintenance, upkeep, storage, etc. - Not only will you lose money on these things, but the real loss is that you did not put the money into a valuable asset. - Stop with the debt logic, looking at things in terms of monthly payments, something on sale / half price so you have to buy it now, if you use debt logic and think in monthly payments or thinking that you will pay it off later you have become deluded, it is purchasing insanity. - Always keep you monthly overhead down low and minimise as much as possible, ALWAYS. - Creating wealth is about creating habits e.g. keeping little amount of cash and credit cards around, not looking at online shops with credit card in hand and spending money on things you don't need, pre choosing and selection of what you will eat how you will entertain yourself. - Fear and greed typically drive credit card accumulation. Impulse drives credit card use. Stop thinking in monthly payments. Stop retail therapy, celebrating by spending, stop debt logic. - Build positive habits! ## Create Massive Value: - Stop Sabotaging - Create Massive Value - Accumulate Personal Assets - Accumulate those assets and turn them into long-term wealth. - Create value - Accumulate Assets - Build Wealth - Value - Assets - Wealth - The more you do this over time, the better you get at all three of these then they will all improve exponentially. - What is Value? One way to look at it is something that is 100% external, that only exists in others, so we have only created value if another person thinks it's valuable. - What product or service can I create that will take away someone's fear, anxiety or pain or will create happiness, joy or pleasure. Or something that they could buy or own that could do one of these things. - How to create knowledge or systems to help people get what they want and avoid what they don't want? - There are assets, appreciating assets and even assets that through off an income stream. - Wealth is a balanced portfolio of several different assets, and we have allocated our assets into many different platforms that are rock solid and stable. - Focus not on where you are "sick" financially, concentrate on reaching your financial potential. Keep your sights set on reaching your wealth potential that will be way bigger than average. - How high is high? How far can I go? Always ask how you can create the most significant amount of value you possibly can. Do not focus on what you will get back in return, always concentrate on creating the maximum value you can in any situation. - There is a difference between "taking" unconsciously as part of the animal survival process and consciously "taking" as a way of life. Deliberately "taking" as a part of life will prevent you from creating value and overcoming your justice mechanism. - Move first from the "taking" paradigm to the "trading" model and then finally move to the level of just contributing value. - What helps you evolve is to see the problems at each level, for instance, to move from the "taking" paradigm you have to see how that mindset poisons you and how it is keeping you poor. The problems with the "trading" paradigm is that it is very inefficient always to make sure that everything is fair, it is a great energy waster, it prevents collaboration, it pits you against other people. - Find your gifts, find your talents and contribute, get on that path for life. - Forget about "How do I make money", they are focused on themselves, the short term, survival, security, on getting, on taking. The wealthy person asks "how do i create value?" focusing on others and their needs, how do i create value and long-term value for them, then how do i take that value I get back turn it into assets and wealth. - Creation: Making or manifesting something that is new in some respect. Value is a process - I great question to always ask yourself is "What is a value?" and "what is value for other people?". - What is the process of really creating value? What is the process of evaluating? - Entrepreneur: someone who creates value. - Intrapreneur: Being an entrepreneur inside a company structure. - Realise that you need to create at least ten times the value that you expect to be paid. - If you do not get paid, then you have learnt a lesson that is worth more than the money. - Expect to create ten times the amount of value for the money you expect. - Understand, get inside the heads, heart, emotions, hands and body's of other people and create value from that space. Create value while you are thinking like the other person. - A common mistake is just to think what I like, what I want and then tell people you should like this. Make sure you understand what people want, get feedback of what people want get aligned with what they want and only then create value. - Also, Wealth and Assets only have value because other people appreciate them, so this is all about thinking from the other person perspective. - Profound lesson: The ultimate business skill and the ultimate value creation ability is compassion. - Compassion: Being pro-active with your empathy, being pro-active in seeking to understand what it's like be another person then trying to alleviate suffering or create joy in their life. This is a skill that has to be learned and cultivated over your life. - Practice being pro-active with your empathy. - The distinction between value and veneer, the veneering of reality, we are now veneering everything, food, relationships, health. Cupcakes are like food veneer, a food-like substance that tastes good but has zero nutritional value. Think about what the media does with relationships, what society is doing with sex and sexuality, it is turning it into pornography which is the veneer and superficial part, emotions are now being gained by taking drugs that are the superficial way of achieving feelings without having to do any work, learning's or personal growth that leads to getting to that feeling. - How did this happen? Our genetic wiring is tuned to the superficial as each of these aspects of life because the external parts used to mean there was some nutrition or meaning or reproduction. - If you don't create real value, just veneer, people will find out, and you won't be able to create long-term wealth. If you create stable products that build relationships with customers, then you will be able to build wealth. Do not confuse veneer with value. - To create we first must imitate, and then assimilate then we can finally innovate. - Imitate - Assimilate - Innovate - First we imitate what other people do, then we absorb and learn how people do it, then we can innovate and tweak and add things ourselves. - To create you must first stand on the shoulders of giants. Study the masters, see if you can understand it and assimilate it and only then go and try and create. - Learning to create value and creating value must be practised for years and decades. - Start noticing the emotion, physical and intellectual responses when you have value created for you or when you receive value. - Invest at least 20 - 30 percent of all your income in creating value for yourself. e.g. eating healthy, gym membership, relationship, do beautiful things for your relationship, education. - Create REAL value for others. The primary contexts in life where we create value and get value back in return that we turn into assets and wealth. For most it is a job, others it is starting your own business and for some it is investing. Pick the one that makes the most sense for you. If it is a job, learn your job and your company and ask what it would take to create massive value in that company. If it is your own company determine what it will take to create value in your industry. If you are going to invest become the genius investor in that area and know everything about it. Become masters of the domain of value creation we are in. - The personal value tipping point: When you go from trying to find places where you can find value to when you have people coming to you asking if you can create value for them. Finally, we become in demand where you have a line of people wanting you to work for them. You will start off trying to look for a job and get to people contacting you asking for you to create value for them. - Why do people not reach their personal value tipping point? You have to become an expert in something, this will take at the very least 5 - 10 years. - One of the tragedies of modern life is the extinguishing of apprentices and now instead of wanting to master something people want an instant quick fix. - Look at this as you becoming a craftsperson, striving to become a master, you will reach your personal value tipping point. - Our entire civilisation is going through a massive shift, we are going from valuing physical things to valuing intangible things, we are starting to value knowledge, joy and happiness. We all must learn to master knowledge, learning and teaching, learn and teach systems and skills. You have to keep educating yourself. - There are a few types of value creation that you need to do and need to master, but you will not get paid directly. These are Teaching, Coaching, Mentoring and "Fusion" / Fusing other people together. - We need to learn to teach information. When you learn something teach it to someone else as soon as possible, learn to explain things, use metaphors, etc. - We need to get to coach. Help someone develop some part of themselves, keep them on track. - We need to learn to mentor. Helping someone actualize who they are, to find their gifts and talents and develop them. - We need to learn "Fusion". This is taking people and introducing them. Connect people on a daily basis, fuse them together and help them work together. - Look at other programs on how to do these particular skills. ## Accumulating Personal Assets: "The first requisite for success is the ability to apply your physical and mental energies to one problem incessantly without growing weary" - Thomas Jefferson If you want to build the security, the ability to help others and the power you have with wealth and avoid all the problems that come without having wealth then you need to build the assets to achieve it. Saying someone "Is rich but cheap" is like saying "Someone did an excellent job quitting their alcohol addiction, but they are boring because they won't drink when we go out". It is an incredible self-deception, it is like saying someone is incredibly accomplished yet not accomplished at all. We will have to go through incredible challenges to discipline ourselves. So if you see someone rich, but acting cheap, realise that is why they got to where they are, they have figured out how to overcome the temptation to spend money wildly. Spending is a behaviour that has to be managed; it is an addiction for most people that they do unconsciously. If you see someone who has overcome it blesses them! Assets (From Wikipedia): Assets are things of value that can be readily converted into cash. Ebens take: Assets are things that have real, sustainable, actual value. Wealthy people do not often want to convert things into cash because it loses value, you have to pay tax, pay the slippage fee. Wealthy people will often trade assets. The rich, the wealthy, they buy assets that have real sustainable value. The poor, they buy liabilities. The middle class buy liabilities thinking that they are buying assets. A quick tour of the history of money: FIAT currency, it essentially a currency that is not backed by anything, not gold or land, we just printed a bunch of it and trusted each other. The Roman coin "Denarius" was a silver coin that over time the actual amount of silver kept reducing. Now that money is paper this problem is worse, cause all they have to do is print more money. Alan Greenspan has said that FIAT currency is essentially robbing people of their wealth. Isn't it odd that you give up your time to only be reimbursed a piece of paper or a number in your bank account? "It is well enough that people of the nation understand our monetary and banking system for if they did I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning" - Henry Ford In the 1700's in France I guy called "John Law" created paper FIAT currency in the West. It turns out that John law was a criminal that used the scheme of printing paper money to his advantage, note that he invented the term "Millionaire", he also said that "Money is not wealth" - John Law. He was essentially a great criminal mind. Frances currency eventually collapsed as most FIAT currency's do, but everyone kind of adopted his system. In America, the Federal Reserve is neither federal nor a reserve, it is a private institution created by bankers. When the federal reserve creates the money they lend it to America; then the country has to pay interest on the money that they borrowed. The same people that own the federal reserve or created it own most of the banks, the banks then lend money out to the people. The system is mainly designed to filter up the value from the lower levels of the economy to the higher levels. Inflation is defined as the dilution of the money system. Banks create money themselves, it's called "The Fractional Reserve system", which means they only have to keep a fraction of the money that they owe in reserve. The ration is about 90%, so they can take $10 and lend out $90. This can even multiply as they can take that $90 and give that to another bank who can then lend out $900 based on that. Companies can do the same thing as FIAT currency and just issue more stock, split shares, etc. So this is obviously a system that very savvy, powerful humans created and perfected over thousands of years with really their needs as the driving force behind this system. So don't blindly trust that money or stock is value. There are power players that are using this system to their advantage, and if you want to play you have to learn the rules and play the way the winners play. To get control of money and use it as a tool, you have to depersonalise it. "Objectifying your demons robs them of their ability to control you" - Ken Wilbur A victim makes their oppressor into their god. If you identify with money, or any object or any form of value then you are controlled by it. But if you depersonalise it, see it as a tool and as a means to an end then you take control of it. In negotiation one of the most important strategies is to always be ready to walk away from any deal, "negotiate with one hand on the door", so that you never seem needy or seem like you want something too much. It is the same thing with money, assets or wealth, you can't get too excited if you gain some money or assets or lose them. You have to depersonalise it. You have to depersonalise money so you can get rid of most of it to turn it into assets and then you can depersonalise assets so you can distribute your value or wealth among your assets in a way that's logical that has the highest chance of sustaining over a extended period. **Two Types of Assets** **Inner assets:** Skills, Experience and Knowledge **External Assets:** Soft assets (Intellectual property, brand image, trademarks) Hard assets (Real estate) You must learn how to think like a wealth builder. You must learn how to work on the process and systems of creating wealth and not just in them. This is objectifying things so you can control it. Work on your business not just in your business, if you solve a problem you don't just solve it again and again, you create a system for solving it and teach it to other people. You can't solve a problem on the same level of thinking that created it - Einstein The shift you have to make is from someone going to Vegas to game to becoming the casino. You have to depersonalise money, move above it, dis-identify with it, someone who sits outside it and uses the tools and has mastery over its elements. You earn gross, and you spend net. Any business has overheads, a company doing $1million of abusiness may only be profiting 100 thousand. As a general rule of thumb inside any company, you have to make 5 - 10 times the sales that you expect to profit. This is where a job is good, as they will just give you your wage. A good way to see this in your personal life is say you get paid $5000 a month, how much of that do you actually get a month, taxes are taken out, rent is taken out, etc. So this is earning gross and spending net. But humans like to think about earning gross and spending gross. When making purchasing decisions, we think about the gross we are earning and not the net. So earn gross and spend net. Most of us get paid in money, turn that money into an asset as soon as possible. Don't spend it, don't go buy a liability. Poor people never learn this strategy, poor people think the money is the asset. Money needs to be turned into real assets. While everyone trusts it and while we can readily convert it into assets, and then let's do that. Put the money into assets that have real value, appreciate and put off cash flow. The wealthy keep their value in assets. Tangible real world assets: Real Estate: There are booms and busts. So if you are going to invest in this learn about it, learn the market, learn the trends and become an expert. Stock: There are booms and busts. So if you are going to invest in this learn about it, learn the market, learn the trends and become an expert. Precious Metals (Gold, Silver and Platinum): Money has been made out of these things for thousands of years, they have a lot of utility value. Collectables: Especially luxury collectables, stamps, cars, coins but remember they only have value as long as other people think they are valuable. Financial Instrument: A bond, a mortgage. But again they are financial, they are money, so you only want to get into this if you understand them. A Business: Ebens favourite, one of the reasons he likes it is because he is in charge of the growth. With a business instead of taking money out, and paying tax, you can reinvest that money in your business you can write it off. You can end up paying a lot fewer taxes. The rule of thumb is to follow Warren Buffet and only invest in what you understand. The big mistake people make taking their money and giving it to some "investment expert" and not understanding the process. Warren Buffet would never give his money to someone and say "You figure it out". He invests in a lot of furniture stores, Gillette razors, coca cola, things that he understands. Warren Buffet is reported to read 8 hours a day, and, his goal is to make one sound investment decision per year. Get the money, depersonalise it, use it as a tool, turn it into assets, understand the classes of assets, know and become an expert in 1 or more of these types of assets. "The appreciating and cash flowing asset" - This is where you want to become an expert. IF you are investing in real estate, look for one that will appreciate. If you are looking at stock get one that pays dividends and grows. Same with business, one that produces and earns cash. Invest in assets that grow and cash flow! Soft assets: you as an individual are your best asset. Your Relationships, three key types of asset relationships. Network - All the people you know. "The strong power of weak ties", "Its not you know it's who you know" you don't necessarily need to know them well. Build a network! Mastermind - The small group of people that you meet with on a regular basis that are looking to grow wealth and assets over time. These are the people you share your growth plans and aspirations with. Mentors - The super genius who will pull you up a level, help you see the flaws in you communication and other parts of your life and will also help you understand your talents and help you be the best you can be. You need to attract and cultivate these relationships. Reputation - Your reputation is critical maintain. You want it as someone who keeps their word, someone who show up on time, someone who does what they say, someone who promises small and delivers large, someone who can is counted on. Your time, effort, energy and attention - Most of us don't control these, but it is all you have got. Cultivate the ability to focus on one thing for an extended period. It is harder to see the ability of soft assets, with hard assets you can know what you have got, but with soft assets think of compounding interest charts and visuals in mind, with exponential growth and remember that when you are accumulating soft assets. Some of these soft inner assets can be built through investment. Expertise can be constructed through the investment of education and experience. Education can be gained through reading, seminars, programs and experience is what you learn from actually doing something, the best way to get experience is doing something with a master. You can also pay people for advice. Invest at least 10% of whatever you earn on expertise. Your expertise is really all you got, if you don't have it you can't size up an investment opportunity, you can't attract people to your mastermind, you will not give off the appearance of value. From now on the only types of people you will interact with is "Superstars". When you start interacting, you will notice some people get it, and some people don't. Surround yourself with only the people that get it. A "Superstar" is only the top 1%. This can also be applied to a company. You can find a superstar company with superstar people working inside of it. The only network with superstars, if you are in business only hire superstars. Talk to people and ask them what their aspirations are and only put them on your system. Superstars know and worth with other stars, but you have to ask them. Superstars get the whole value exchange thing, if you create value for them, they will create value for you. So what do you have to do to attract superstars? YOU HAVE TO BECOME A SUPERSTAR. You have to have integrity, you have to become a driver, deliver results, make and meet commitments to other people, show people you are willing to take risk, take personal responsibility and not make excuses. As people become more and more successful in life they are looking for referrals. They are more looking for people they trust, they are unlikely to use the phone books, so as someone that creates fusion with others, your priority when you meet a superstar is to introduce them to someone else who can synergies and create value with them. On average you should be introducing at least one person to another person per day. The best way to create fusions is you connect people with something special, you connect them through something where their realities are the same, so if you are connecting someone who is looking for a job and someone who owns a business, don't just tell one about the other in reference to the job and business. Connect them on the basis of something special as they have the same tastes in music. If you develop this skill, it will pay off exponentially over time. ## Build Long Term Wealth: - Meditation for this session: Money follows the action. The value follows the action. Assets support action. Wealth follows the action. - Wealth exists on three different levels, the physical, emotional and mental level. - What is wealth in the ultimate sense? One way to look at it is freedom, freedom to be who we want to be, freedom to do what we want, freedom to help people. - "Wealth consciousness": Think that money is abundant, it's easy to get and safe for you. - "There is a lot more money than their is deals" - More people are looking to invest. Wealth and money are abundant. There are so many people out there, so much richness, so much money that it is all in abundance. - We must pursue excellence and hone our craft and become the best we possibly can with our gifts. - We live in the most abundant time in the history of the world. All we need to do is go out there and create massive value, and then once the money and worth start flowing to us, we convert that to assets and wealth. - Build the relationships and go deep and go long term. - New Frames: - Building wealth is a project just like any other. - Most people cannot do it because they cannot overcome their inner animal, their need for instant gratification, the ability to stick to it and persist Wealthy people realise that all you need to do is do the same things to build wealth every single day. The bottom line is to build wealth as a project in your life. - This is very possibleit too. - 1 in 50 people is a millionaire, and you can do it to. - Wealth building is a project. - We have to dehypnotize ourselves if we want to build wealth long term. - The mainstream media holds up the exceptions, not the rules. - We have to wake up and realise the fantasy that is put on TV is not the reality for us. - We have to choose an area of wealth building we understand and know more and more over decades. - Wealth creation isn't taught, it is learned. - If you want to create wealth you have to become personally fascinated with it. You have to get enamored with it; you have to get intrigued with it. - You have to go out and figure out how it works. - You have to become personally committed and do a study of your whole life of wealth creation. - When the student is ready, the knowledge will appear. - The most important word in your investment vocabulary is "NO". - There is far more investment opportunity than you can ever take advantage. - The time you are going to waste on an "OK / pretty good" investment opportunity is worth more than you will make on the investment itself. - Learn to say no, become very selective. - The distinction between ownership and control. - Wealthy people would usually rather manage a resource or asset than own it - Wealthy people are not attached to any one particular thing in their life. - Everything on the planet is temporary, and you can't really "own" anything as you will not be forever. - None of this material stuff belongs to anyone in a sense, we are just here to steward it, we are more here to find your niche, create value for others, then channel some of the resulting value that flows back to you where it might do you and some others some good while trying not to take it all for yourself it will do you good. - If you attach yourself to something, then it can own you and control you rather than you controlling it. - Manage Risk. - One of the biggest problems would be wealth creators face they just can't take the risk. They play it safe. - The mindset that it is important to get when you want to take intelligent risk is that risk is something to be managed. - Risk is inherent in life, every minute you are alive you are risking death from many different things, but we have learned with most things to not be afraid of them because the chances are small. The same mindset is valuable when accumulating assets as you will need to take some risk. - Do not be afraid of risk, manage it. - For you to succeed you may have to do it in secret. - If you know failure minded people and people that resent wealth and resent success, then you may have to create wealth in secret. - You may have to do it separately and not share with other people what you are doing. - Sometimes you will have to do consciously things that will alienate other. This is tough emotionally and intellectually. But as you start becoming more and more successful people are going to resent you because they have their issue with success. - The obstacles that I will face as I start accumulating assets each one of them, the key that opens up the lock, is a new skill. The answer is always a new skill. - Anytime you have a challenge the answer is a new skill. - Any time you face a roadblock or challenge or obstacle all you have to do is learn a new skill, pick up a book, learn the skill required. - The key to this is as you add these new wealth building skills they make each other exponentially more powerful. - Make the decision to use your super powers. - If you want to learn how to behave like a mature human being who has flipped on their super powers then use what might be one of the most potent forces anyone has which is the decision to follow healthy rules in your life. - Make a healthy decision about a whole class of things we will do in the future. - Set rules like, learn about investing 1 hour a day over time. - Set a rule to create value, multiple times than we expect to be paid. - Master the first thing, then master the second thing, and then the third thing, keep mastering areas in life. - Master many spheres of life then combine them. - It is the synthesis of this that turns you into a very powerful adult human being - Master your personal health first, learn about ideal size meals, eat highly nutritious. Learn about exercise, your immune system. Get your health together. - Master relationships with other human beings, learn how to be a great friend. Read the emotional intelligence, social intelligence, how to win friends and influence people. - Work on getting your personal health and fitness, relationships and money. These synergies and multiply each other and create a "you" that is much more powerful. - Investing is like farming - When it comes to investments and building wealth and assets your "seed" to plant is a combination of your knowledge, mind, attention, effort, money, assets and relationships. - Take good care of your seeds and plant them ahead of time of your harvest. You need to learn to eat from the harvest, not from the seed. - If you are going to plan to be wealthy, you need to prepare the harvest later. You need to take all the assets you have now and plant them, so they grow over the long term. ## Four real approaches to long-term wealth building: - Career based wealth building: Earn a modest income, live debt free, invest in relatively low-risk market average investments and look to create wealth for retirement. Good if you have a lot of stability in your job. The trick is to stay out of debt and to invest at least 10 - 20 percent ideally more for the long term and put it into market average funds. - Lifestyle based wealth building: Someone who likes to fix up investment properties, but they live in the properties they are fixing up, then sell them. A lifestyle or place where you can live inside the place you are creating wealth. - The investment-based wealth building approach: You can become a certified investor. They put all their time, energy and training by learning how to invest in other things. They create their value by taking their resources and investing it in things other people are doing. A great example of this is Warren Buffet. - The business based wealth building model: You start a business, reinvest some or most of the profits into the business to grow it over time, and then the business becomes the asset. You are not just building the company for a stream of income, but so it is a product that you can eventually sell. - Some people do combinations of the above, but whichever one makes sense to you go deep, develop expertise, become someone who can create value like nobody else in that area so your attention becomes a very highly value commodity so that the experts look to you. Anybody can do it you have to realise that this is long term. - Whatever are you go into you have to look at long term trends? Choose the right horse to ride. Work with people who are going to be successful. Go to work for a company that is already very successful. GO to work in an industry that has good long term prospects. Make it easier for yourself to move forward. - Look to Internet marketing. Bet on the stars, follow the trends, follow things that are already going to be successful. - Learn how to do something that wealthy people enjoy doing, e.g. charity work, golf, whatever just get into something they enjoy so you can get around them in a social atmosphere. - Your greatest asset you can have is you. Refine your expertise, improve your personality or communication. Improve your communication so you can get your point across better than anyone else. - Temptation: temptation, impulses and short-term firing of neurology are things that will take us off the path to success. See the Greek metaphor and tale of the sirens. In life, we need to figure out how to lash ourselves to the ship, so we are not called to the siren song of junk food, using credit, using drugs, instant gratification behaviour, etc. - If you are going to create wealth long term, most of us are not strong enough to do it without lashing ourselves to the ship. We have to set up our lives so that we don't have the temptation to turn the value we create into liabilities or waste it, so our lives naturally make success inevitable. - We know our inner chimpanzee wants to go out and eat that thing right now and spend that money. Deal with temptation. Set your life up so you can overcome it and avoid it. SO you can win the wealth building game in the long run. ### Summary: - Stay away from debt and debt thinking. - Remember that wealth comes not from getting money, but from creating value, then converting the value into assets then accumulating assets that grow in value and throw off value and money until ultimately you have wealth. - Keeping your value in money reduces the value, money has a hole in its bucket. Turn the money you get into assets and wealth. - Overcome your negative emotions around money wealth, business and rich people. - Go deep into the area where there is a huge demand. - Develop your expertise and go deep, expect to spend at least ten years. Persist. Most people will experience their biggest breakthrough right after a failure. - Get around experts, get around people that have created wealth, get around people who are trying to do what you are attempting to do. Absorb and model these people. - Pay your dues in life, don't let your justice mechanism get in the way. - Keep seeking the edge of your comfort zone, keep pushing your own boundary's, keep experiencing novel things and evolving past your beliefs. When in doubt of what to do next go and create massive value every single day Create physical value, emotional value, mental value, tangible value, spiritual value. Focus on creating value for those that are the most successful already. - Focus on developing yourself into a polished, professional communicator. Focus on becoming someone that can express what is on their mind. - Follow and develop long-term trends to creating wealth. Remember that creating wealth is first an inner game and then an outer game. You must develop the expertise to both create value, turn that into assets then accumulate and grow those assets into wealth that is ultimately a lifelong exercise. ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Achievement --- ### [BJJ Concepts Summary: Beyond Technique - Concept Focused BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/beyond-technique-bjj-concepts/) **Published:** December 12, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Beyond Technique - BJJ Concepts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/beyondtechnique2.jpg "Beyond Technique Concept Focused BJJ › Sonny Brown") Beyond Technique is an [instructional video](https://www.jiujitsubrotherhood.com/products/beyond-technique) by Kit Dale and Nicolas Gregoriades that covers 20 BJJ concepts over a wide range of positions. It was one of the first instructionals to to focus entirely on [BJJ Concepts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/pedagogy-bjj-concepts-gamification-rob-biernacki-bjj-interview/ "Playful Pedagogy, Cognition, BJJ Concepts & Gamification of Micro Battles With Rob Biernacki") & principles. Below I give a short summary of the concepts that are covered. ### **Transitional Pressure** When moving between positions, (side mount, knee ride, north-south, mount ) you want to maintain pressure on your opponent at all times. At no point do you want to take the pressure off, you want constant pressure and control. ### ****The Fisherman**** Like lifting your fishing rod up in the air before you begin to wind the reel to help land the fish. If you are in someone's guard and they have grips on your sleeve stand up and posture with your legs and hips and then recover control of your sleeves by bringing them closer to your body. The opposite would be just trying to pull your arms in on their own. Instead let your legs, hips and posture be the fishing rod lifting up and then pull your arms in ### **The Quadrant** “A four-legged table is a stable base, a two-legged table falls of its own accord” Consider an opponent on their hands and feet with each limb representing a table leg. Then Divide the body into 4 quadrants. With one quadrant representing the left leg, right leg, left arm and right arm. To plan your sweeps you want to look at what quadrant of your opponent you have neutralised and that is the area and direction that they can be swept into. A quadrant that is defended by a free hand or leg will be used to support the opponent if you try to sweep them into that quadrant. Instead, immobilise a quadrant and sweep into that quadrant. ### **Post, Pressure and leverage.** Three principles are used for sweeps. Either do all three or two really well for a sweep to work. Taking away the ability to post is the same as the quadrant concept. You then want to get a grip to take away the opponents posture. Once you have taken away their post and posture you need to create a leverage point on their body by getting a grip or using your foot and then sweep into the quadrant that you have taken away the post from. ### **The Porcupine** The porcupine concept states that when someone is trying to control you, you should be “spiky” or “Prickly” like a porcupine by using harder parts of your anatomy against softer parts of your opponent's anatomy. For example, using your wrist bone or the point of your elbow against soft parts of your opponent's neck or sternum. ### **Nullifying the guard pull.** For competition Jiu-Jitsu against guard pullers. To [pull guard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/a-study-of-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-athletes/ "A Study of Pulling Guard in MMA for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Athletes") the opponent's hips must come closer than their shoulders. To nullify this look to grab their lapel on their shoulder and break them forward so that their shoulder will always be closer to you than their hips. If they pop back after you have broken their posture forward they will be susceptible to leg sweeps/trip takedowns. ### **The Corkscrew** Deals with how you push and pull with your arms. Do not push straight out, it is a more efficient movement to rotate your arm when you push out, similar to throwing a punch. When pulling it is the same concept but in reverse, so when you pull in you will rotate your arm. For example, if your palm was facing down when you grabbed your opponent you will rotate your arm so that once you finish pulling in your palm will face up. Essentially pulling and pushing as if you were throwing punches and rolling your knuckles over. ### **Weight distribution** When guard passing you must always control your balance, base, the centre of gravity or else you will be easy to sweep. Changing your centre of gravity to the opposite of where your opponent is looking to sweep you will make it difficult for them. This will usually be controlled by moving your hips. If they have taken a post away then you can use the quadrant concept in reverse by shifting your weight and centre of gravity to the opposite quadrant from your compromised quadrant. ### **Collapsing and inserting structures** Using your body to strengthen and reinforce an area that your opponent may be attacking, for instance placing a structure of your elbows between your legs so that your opponent cannot squeeze your legs together. Or creating a structure by grabbing the outside of your own knees and placing your elbows on the mat to prevent toriander passes. Any area that your opponents are looking to squeeze or crush see if you can insert a structure to prevent this. If your opponent is using a structure to attack, for instance, spider guard where the structure would be the opponent's legs. To escape the spider guard you cannot be rigid and tense as this will give strength to your opponent's structure. Instead, you should relax and take all pressure away which will collapse the structure. ### **Double-Barrel Shotgun** This concept is for keeping your guard. Think of each of your legs as the barrels of a double-barreled shotgun. When you shoot one of the barrels this is when you extend one of your legs out. Now in this concept you never want to have shot both barrels at the same time, that is you never want to extend both of your legs at once. You always want to have one bullet in the chamber so that even if one of your legs is extended you want your other leg with your knee to your chest so that it can protect you from having your guard passed. ### **Open and closed chain** Consider your limbs as chains that start at your torso and end at the end of your limbs. Your chains are vulnerable to being attacked when they are opened. Open is when they are not attached to the floor, holding into something or hidden away. When considering the chain of your arms you want to protect the hand and the wrist because this is the end of the chain. For instance, if you are feeling vulnerable to an armbar you need to hide or protect the end of the chain which is your hand and wrist. As long as you keep the chain closed, or hide the end of it away the opponent cannot finish the attack on the chain. With leglocks, your foot is the end of the chain. So a common leglock escape would be to clear your hip and put all your weight on your foot so that it connects to the floor. This is closing the chain of your legs by connecting your foot to the floor. ### **Removing leverage** If you are passing someone's guard it is helpful to make yourself feel as heavy as possible to your opponent. This is done by removing the opponent's leverage points or levers so that they are not leveraging any part of your body and instead are carrying all of your weight. An example of this would be when in butterfly guard pinning both the opponent's legs together so that the butterfly guards lever is removed. ### **Spinal Torque** Consider your spine and when it is in a neutral position it is at its strongest. But if it is twisted, bent or kinked it instantly weakens your entire structure. Always be looking to put a kink in your opponent's spine or torque it in some way to weaken their entire structure. Conversely, when defending you want to keep your spine in the neutral position the entire time to regain your strength. For instance, moving your opponent's hips one way but keeping their upper body pinned or even moving their jaw/head in the opposite direction. By torquing the spine by attacking and twisting the jaw you will even weaken your opponent's legs. If you find yourself in a stalemate with your opponent consider their spine, is it in a neutral position? Or could you torque it by moving their hips or jaw? And conversely, consider your spines position and make sure it is neutral to generate the maximum amount of leverage. ### **Size-specific strategy** For when certain moves only work on certain body types. For instance, if you are against a taller opponent playing spider guard will be really difficult as they can create a lot of slack in their arms by simply standing. For a tall opponent, you want to use a short-range guard not a long-range guard as you want to neutralise the advantage of height that your opponent may have. Conversely, If you are taller use a long-range guard. The same principle applies when passing. If you are going against a taller opponent you will have to pass by keeping close to their body or by using a half guard pass so that they cannot use the full length of their limbs. ### **Border Patrol** Consider you have an invisible border running down the side of your torso and between your shoulder and across your hips. Think of a rectangle between your shoulders and hips. You want to make sure your opponent never gets inside your borders if they are wanting to control you. Conversely, if you are looking to control your opponent then you want to get inside this border. When defending your border you never want to let your opponent get their body in your border so you would jam a limb or knee between your border and your opponent's body to prevent this. Even when on the mount this would be pulling the opponent's elbows away from their body/border so that they become compromised. ### **Loading the spring** When passing the guard or sweeping you can accidentally telegraph your move, consider this as loading up your punches or pulling back before you punch. For example when attempting a pass when you would push your opponent's legs in and then pull them out to pass the legs. You do not want to push the legs in suddenly as this is the telegraph to your opponent. Instead, you would load the spring by driving your pressure in slowly until you feel your opponent start to push away and you would then pull their legs out. If any movement involves a push / pull motion then loading the spring is not exploding into the push-pull which would telegraph your intentions. But rather slowly forcing your opponent into the position where you would have pushed them (this would be when the spring is loaded) and then executing the pull. ### **The Pendulum** Using a part of your anatomy that you throw through space to create a pendulum effect that moves the rest of your body. For example, when laying flat and looking to sit up you would not just raise your shoulders up, instead, you would raise your legs to the sky and then throw them down towards the ground. This would create the pendulum effect that would lift your shoulders. ### **Takedown postures** A concept that takes your opponent's posture into account to dictate what takedown you would use against them. If they are standing very upright then you would attack their legs with trips or leg picks. If your opponent is leaning forward then you would instead consider throwing them. If your opponent is really far back and leaning forward then you would look to snap them down. With these three setups in mind, you can rotate between them as the counters from one posture and takedown will usually lead them into one of the other postures. ### **Hip centric movement** Often in scrambles, you may reflexively move your arms to gain control over your opponent but it is instead much better to think of where you move your hips and use your hip position to gain control over your opponent. For instance, do not reach or grab your opponent but rather move your hips closer to them which will give you much more leverage. ### **The Misdirection** Like Judo whoever gets the dominant grips will most likely win. Misdirection is to get the grips you want without telegraphing your intention. If you want to grab their feet you do not want to look at their feet and move directly to grab them as it will be obvious to your opponent. instead, want to see where your opponent is looking or paying attention to and use movement to misdirect them away from where you are looking to grip. This may be looking at their legs and grabbing the lapel instead and not easily telegraphing your intention to your opponent. #### BJJ Concepts Summary: Beyond Technique - Concept Focused BJJ You can purchase the instructional from [Jiu-Jitsu Brotherhood. ](https://www.jiujitsubrotherhood.com/products/beyond-technique "https://www.jiujitsubrotherhood.com/products/beyond-technique") Regards, Sonny Brown ![author avatar](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d0824d504f9253c80666f09f5f782912485f522379300ca96282689e39a4a0fc?s=300&d=blank&r=g) Sonny Brown Sonny Brown is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, martial arts coach, commentator, emcee and host of The Sonny Brown Breakdown. He holds a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education and coaches at Apex MMA in Sydney. [See Full Bio](https://www.sonnybrown.net/author/sonny-brown/) [Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown) [X (Twitter)](https://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! **Categories:** Martial Arts --- ## Pages ### [Sonny Brown Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/) **Published:** February 26, 2016 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/logo_big-150x150.png "Sonny Brown › Sonny Brown")# Martial Arts. Explained. [![Sonny Brown Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/icon_podcast-150x150.png "Sonny Brown Podcast › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast) ## [Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast) Listen to the Best Coaches & Athletes in Martial Arts. [![Sonny Brown Articles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/icon_article-150x150.png "Sonny Brown Articles › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/articles) ## [Articles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/articles) Read About Ways to Improve Your Martial Arts Game. [![Sonny Brown Videos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/icon_video-150x150.png "Sonny Brown Videos › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/videos) ## [Videos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/videos) Watch Breakdowns of Martial Arts Techniques. [![Sonny Brown - Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/icon_coaching-150x150.png "icon_coaching › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching) ## [COACHING](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching) Get Coached on How to Teach or Learn Martial Arts. ## Latest Podcast [![The Mythology of Play in Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_068_header.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/)## [The Mythology of Play With Michael Phillip](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) I talk to Michael Phillip, host of the long-running philosophy and esoterica podcast Third Eye Drops, where he conducts what he calls "mind melds" with authors, musicians, thinkers, and mystics on topics ranging from Jungian psychology and mythology to consciousness,... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) ## Latest Article [![Sonny Brown - Rubberguard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_rubberguard.png)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/)## [Why I Don’t Teach Rubber Guard Anymore & Attribute Based Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/) I am still the only person in Australia to win an MMA fight and a championship title via a gogoplata submission set up from rubber guard. Eddie Bravo gave me a shoutout, the sequence was featured on his "Mastering the System" series, and for a while, it felt like... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/) ## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists", which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. ## Success! Name Email [ Get The Guide ](#) --- ### [Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** # Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) This hub brings together my work on mixed martial arts training, coaching, analysis, wrestling, striking, grappling and the tactical problems that connect them. MMA is not simply a collection of separate styles. The most interesting problems appear in the transitions between ranges and phases, where striking, clinching, wrestling and grappling influence one another. ## MMA coaching and training Good MMA training should prepare athletes to make decisions under pressure while preserving the relationships between striking, takedowns, clinch work, ground control and submissions. For broader coaching principles, visit [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/). For ecological and constraints-led practice, see [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/). ## Striking and MMA MMA striking changes when takedowns, clinches and the cage are present. Distance, stance, rhythm and defensive choices all have to account for the wider rules of the sport. See [Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) and [Mittmaster Matt Chapman on MMA padwork](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/). ## Wrestling, clinch and takedowns Wrestling is one of the key connecting skills in MMA because it links striking to control, takedowns, cage work and ground phases. Relevant resources include [Brian Ebersole on wrestling and competition mindset](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-abstract-thinking-wrestling/), [Matt Lindland on wrestling, coaching and risk](https://www.sonnybrown.net/matt-lindland-interview-coaching-risk-wrestling/) and [A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/). ## Grappling for MMA Grappling changes when strikes, the cage and the possibility of standing back up are part of the environment. Positional choices, submissions and guard strategies have to be understood in that context. See [A Study of Pulling Guard in MMA for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Fighters](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/), [The Bulldog Choke in MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-bulldog-choke-in-mma/) and [Williams Guard for BJJ & MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/williams-guard-bjj-mma-breakdown/). ## MMA analysis and performance The site also contains interviews and analysis covering preparation, psychology, performance, coaching culture and the history of the sport. Examples include [Alexander Volkanovski on adapting under pressure](https://www.sonnybrown.net/alexander-volkanovski-interview-comfort/), [Greg Nelson on coaching MMA champions and team culture](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) and [Dr Reid Reale on weight cutting for MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/). ## Curated resources For a guided collection of technical studies, coaching conversations and fight analysis, use [MMA Analysis & Training Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mma-analysis-training-resources/). ## Related hubs For grappling-specific material, visit [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/). For podcast interviews across MMA, Jiu-Jitsu and coaching, visit the [MMA & BJJ Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/). This page will continue to organise the strongest MMA training, coaching and analysis material on the site. ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** # Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling This hub brings together my work on Jiu-Jitsu, No-Gi grappling, wrestling, submissions, training methods, coaching and the history of grappling arts. The focus is not on collecting isolated techniques. It is on understanding the problems that appear in live grappling, how athletes learn to solve them, and how different systems, concepts and training methods fit together. ## Learning and coaching Jiu-Jitsu Much of my work looks at how Jiu-Jitsu is taught and learned. That includes concepts, mental models, representative practice, live games, self-directed learning and different approaches to lesson design. Start with [Greg Souders on teaching Jiu-Jitsu without teaching techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/), [Steve Kwan on learning techniques and mental models for BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) and [Rob Biernacki on pedagogy, BJJ concepts and gamification](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/). ## No-Gi grappling, submissions and positional skill No-Gi grappling demands adaptable control of position, connection, pressure, movement and submission opportunities. The archive includes work on guard systems, leg entanglements, defensive structures, offensive cycles and the relationship between wrestling and submission grappling. Useful examples include [Robert Degle on leg locks and the leg entanglement meta](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/), [Offence vs Defence for Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/offence-vs-defence-grappling-jiu-jitsu/) and [Mastering the Art of Flow Rolling for Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/). ## Wrestling and takedowns Grappling skill also depends on what happens before and around the takedown. Wrestling, clinch work and transitions between standing and ground phases are important parts of both Jiu-Jitsu and MMA. See [A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/), [The History of Folk Wrestling Styles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ruadhan-macfadden-history-folk-wrestling/) and [Sam Kressin on combining Catch Wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/sam-kressin-grappling-catch-wrestling-bjj/). ## Jiu-Jitsu history and culture The history of grappling is full of myths, borrowed traditions and evolving rulesets. I have written and recorded work on Mitsuyo Maeda, Jigoro Kano, catch wrestling and the development of modern Jiu-Jitsu. See [Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/), [Kano Jigoro as Educator & Founder of Judo](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kano-jigoro-educator-founder-judo/) and [The Underground History of Catch Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/). ## Curated resources For a guided route through the historical material, use the [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling History Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling-history-resources/) collection. ## Related hubs For the learning theory behind much of this material, visit [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/). For ecological and constraints-led practice specifically, see [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/). This page will continue to organise the strongest Jiu-Jitsu and grappling material on the site. ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** # Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts Ecological dynamics and the constraints-led approach offer a different way to think about how martial artists learn. Instead of treating skill as a fixed technique that is copied and reproduced, they focus on the relationship between the athlete, the task and the environment. This page brings together my work on ecological dynamics, representative learning design, constraints, perception and decision-making across Jiu-Jitsu, grappling, striking and mixed martial arts. ## What ecological dynamics means in martial arts In live combat sports, athletes are constantly reading information from an opponent and adapting their actions. Distance, posture, pressure, timing, grips, space and balance all change from moment to moment. Skill emerges from how effectively an athlete can perceive and act on those changing opportunities. This makes representative practice important. Training should preserve enough of the information and decision-making found in the real performance environment that athletes learn to solve authentic problems rather than only rehearse isolated movements. ## The constraints-led approach A constraints-led approach changes the practice task so useful behaviours are more likely to emerge. A coach can manipulate space, starting position, scoring rules, available actions, time or objectives while still keeping the athlete engaged in a live problem. The aim is not to remove coaching. It is to design practice that guides attention and creates learning opportunities without prescribing every solution in advance. ## Ecological Jiu-Jitsu and grappling One of the strongest discussions of these ideas on this site is [Greg Souders on teaching Jiu-Jitsu without teaching techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/). Related perspectives include [The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) and [Embodied Grappling Philosophy & Practice](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/). ## Ecological dynamics for MMA and striking These ideas are not limited to grappling. Striking and mixed martial arts depend heavily on perception, distance management, timing and adaptive decision-making. See [Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) for a detailed discussion of how ecological principles can be applied to striking practice. ## Coaching with constraints The practical question is not whether a coach should teach techniques or use games. It is how to create practice that develops adaptable skill. Sometimes a short explanation is useful. Sometimes the best intervention is changing the task. Sometimes athletes need more freedom to explore. The wider [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/) hub covers those coaching decisions in more detail. ## Related resources Other useful pieces include [A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/), [Rob Biernacki on pedagogy, BJJ concepts and gamification](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) and [Lachlan Giles on the Reverse Classroom and BJJ Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/). This hub will continue to organise the strongest ecological and constraints-led material on the site as the field and my own coaching practice develop. ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** # Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition Good martial arts coaching is more than demonstrating techniques and asking students to repeat them. It is the design of learning environments that help people perceive problems, make decisions, adapt under pressure and build skills that transfer into live training. This page brings together my work on martial arts coaching, skill acquisition, lesson design and learning theory across Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, striking and mixed martial arts. ## Coaching for adaptable skill Technical knowledge matters, but the goal of coaching is not simply to produce accurate rehearsals. It is to help athletes solve the problems that appear in sparring and competition. That means balancing instruction with live practice, guided discovery, representative tasks and feedback that helps the learner become less dependent on the coach over time. My interest in coaching has increasingly centred on how constraints, task design and decision-making shape skill. That includes traditional instructional models, Game Sense, ecological dynamics, self-determination theory and other approaches that can improve how martial artists learn. ## Skill acquisition and learning design Different students need different amounts of structure. Beginners benefit from clear boundaries and carefully designed tasks. More experienced athletes need broader problems that require them to recognise information, adapt and create solutions. The coach’s job is to adjust those constraints so the practice remains challenging, relevant and safe. Useful starting points include [The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/), [A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/) and [The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition for Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/three-stage-model-skill-acquisition-martial-art/). ## Motivation and athlete ownership Learning is also affected by motivation, autonomy and the culture of the room. A coach can make athletes more capable while also making them more dependent, or create an environment where they gradually take ownership of their own development. For more on this side of coaching, see [Self-Determination Theory of Motivation for Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/), [Lachlan Giles on the Reverse Classroom for Jiu-Jitsu & BJJ Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/) and [John Will on Designing BJJ Lessons & Learning Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/). ## Concepts, constraints and representative practice Many of the ideas on this site explore whether athletes learn best by accumulating isolated techniques or by practising the relationships, information and decisions that make those techniques useful. That question sits behind much of my work on ecological dynamics and the constraints-led approach. See the dedicated [Ecological Dynamics & the Constraints-Led Approach for Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) guide for a deeper overview. ## Related coaching resources You can also explore [Rob Biernacki on pedagogy, BJJ concepts and gamification](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/), [Greg Souders on teaching Jiu-Jitsu without teaching techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) and the wider [coaching page](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/) for private lessons, seminars and practical coaching information. For a curated starting point, use the [Martial Arts Skill Acquisition Reading List](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-skill-acquisition-reading-list/) or the [Best Martial Arts Coaching Podcasts & Interviews](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching-podcasts-interviews/) guide. This hub will continue to organise the strongest material on teaching, learning and skill development across martial arts. ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Newsletter](https://www.sonnybrown.net/newsletter/) **Published:** October 6, 2021 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Contact Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/contact_header.jpg "Contact Sonny Brown › Sonny Brown") # Newsletter Hey there! If you're keen to stay up-to-date with my writing and podcasting, make sure you sign up for my newsletter. You'll receive occasional updates on new articles and episodes, and it's a great way to stay in touch. **## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and you'll receive occasional updates on articles, podcasts or videos. You'll also get access to "The Morning Martial Arts Routine" guide, which details five habits to start a martial artist's day off right. ## Success! Name Email [ SUBSCRIBE ](#)** --- ### [MMA Analysis & Training Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mma-analysis-training-resources/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** This collection brings together my MMA breakdowns, coaching articles and podcast conversations on striking, wrestling, grappling, tactics and preparation for mixed martial arts. For the broader overview, start with the [Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/) hub. ## Takedowns, Clinch and Wrestling [**Khabib Nurmagomedov Takedown Breakdown**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/khabib-grappling-takedown-breakdown/) A technical study of how Khabib connected wrestling positions and takedowns in MMA. [**Demian Maia BJJ Takedown Tactics in MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/demian-maias-bjj-takedown-tactics-mma-analysis/) An analysis of how Maia built entries and takedowns around the requirements of MMA. [**Fedor Emelianenko Clinch Throws & Takedown Breakdown**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/fedor-emelianenko-clinch-throws-breakdown/) A study of Fedor's clinch work and throwing mechanics. [**Judo in MMA: Karo Parisyan**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/karo-parisyan-judo-throws-in-mma-study/) A study of throws from Parisyan's fights and how Judo can be adapted to mixed martial arts. ## Grappling and Submissions for MMA [**Pulling Guard in MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/study-pulling-guard-in-mma-for-grapplers/) A study of an uncommon but viable way for specialist grapplers to bring a fight to the ground. [**Williams Guard for BJJ & MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/williams-guard-bjj-mma-breakdown/) A technical breakdown of the guard and its application to fighting. [**The Bulldog Choke in MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-bulldog-choke-in-mma/) A breakdown of the submission through examples from competition. [**The Suloev Stretch Submission Breakdown**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-suloev-stretch-submission-breakdown/) A study of a submission that appears at the intersection of wrestling scrambles and grappling. ## Coaching and Preparation [**Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) A discussion of representative practice, perception and decision-making in MMA striking. [**Greg Nelson on Coaching MMA Champions**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) A conversation about coaching, team culture and developing fighters. [**Dr Reid Reale on Weight Loss & Weight Cutting for MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/reid-reale-weight-loss-weight-cutting-mma-bjj/) Evidence-informed discussion of weight management and combat-sport preparation. ## Where to Continue For coaching and learning theory, continue to [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/). For grappling-specific material, visit [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/). ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling History Resources](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling-history-resources/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** This collection brings together my articles, research and podcast conversations on the history of Jiu-Jitsu, grappling, wrestling and the techniques and people that shaped the modern arts. For the broader topic, start with the [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/) hub. ## Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu History [**Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/) A detailed examination of recurring stories surrounding Maeda and the development of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. [**Robert Drysdale on the History of BJJ**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-drysdale-interview-bjj-history/) A conversation about separating documented history from the stories that martial arts communities repeat about themselves. ## Techniques and Their History [**A Brief History of the Kimura Lock**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/a-brief-history-of-the-kimura-lock-technique/) The history behind one of grappling's most recognisable submissions and the name it carries today. [**The Bulldog Choke in MMA**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-bulldog-choke-in-mma/) A look at an old grappling technique through its use in modern mixed martial arts. [**The Suloev Stretch Submission Breakdown**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-suloev-stretch-submission-breakdown/) A breakdown of the submission and its appearance in combat sports. ## Wrestling and Grappling Traditions [**The Underground History of Catch Wrestling with Jake Shannon**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/history-of-catch-wrestling-jake-shannon/) A discussion of catch wrestling's history, culture and influence on submission grappling. [**The History of Folk Wrestling Styles with Ruadhán MacFadden**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ruadhan-macfadden-history-folk-wrestling/) An exploration of wrestling traditions and how local styles developed across cultures. [**Mind Over Muscle, Judo & Jigoro Kano**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mind-over-muscle-judo-jigoro-kano/) A discussion of Kano, Judo and the educational ideas that influenced modern grappling. [**Kano Jigoro as Educator & Founder of Judo**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kano-jigoro-educator-founder-judo/) A closer look at Kano as an educator as well as a martial arts innovator. ## Where to Continue For modern training and coaching material, return to [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/). For the crossover between grappling and fighting, continue to [Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/). ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Best Martial Arts Coaching Podcasts & Interviews](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching-podcasts-interviews/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** This guide collects some of the most useful conversations from The Sonny Brown Breakdown on coaching, learning, skill acquisition and athlete development. It is organised by topic so coaches can find the episodes most relevant to the problem they are trying to solve. ## Ecological Dynamics and Constraints-Led Coaching [**Greg Souders on the Ecological Approach to Jiu-Jitsu**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) A central conversation on representative practice, live games and coaching without relying on a conventional technique-first model. [**Scott Sievewright on Ecological MMA Striking**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) Applies ecological principles to striking and MMA, where distance, timing and tactical decisions have to remain connected. [**Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) A useful comparison of different approaches to live learning environments in grappling. ## Concepts, Mental Models and Lesson Design [**Steve Kwan on Learning BJJ Through Mental Models**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/steve-kwan-learning-bjj-mental-models/) Explores how conceptual frameworks can help organise technical information without turning learning into memorisation alone. [**Rob Biernacki on Pedagogy, Concepts and Gamification**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) Discusses conceptual teaching, practice games and how to structure learning around transferable ideas. [**John Will on Designing BJJ Lessons**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) Practical lesson-design insight from one of Australia's pioneering Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructors. ## Athlete Ownership and Self-Directed Learning [**Lachlan Giles on the Reverse Classroom and Skill Acquisition**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/) Looks at how experienced athletes can take greater ownership of learning and how coaches can support that process. [**The Mythology of Play with Michael Phillip**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) Connects structure, play, creativity and skill acquisition to broader ideas about mastery and experimentation. ## MMA Coaching and Team Development [**Greg Nelson on Coaching MMA Champions and Team Culture**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-nelson-coaching-mma-team-culture/) A wider look at coaching environments, team culture and developing athletes over the long term. [**Brian Ebersole on Wrestling and Abstract Thinking**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/brian-ebersole-abstract-thinking-wrestling/) Useful for coaches interested in problem solving, wrestling and developing adaptable competitors rather than rigid technique sequences. ## Where to Go Next For a broader written guide to the subject, visit [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/) and the [Martial Arts Skill Acquisition Reading List](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-skill-acquisition-reading-list/). You can also browse the full [The Sonny Brown Breakdown podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/) archive. ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Martial Arts Skill Acquisition Reading List](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-skill-acquisition-reading-list/) **Published:** September 12, 2026 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** This reading list collects the strongest material on this site about how martial artists learn, how coaches design practice, and how skill develops under pressure. It is intended as a practical starting point for coaches and athletes rather than a chronological archive. For the broader overview, start with [Martial Arts Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/). If your main interest is ecological dynamics and the constraints-led approach, use the dedicated [Ecological Dynamics & CLA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/) guide. ## Foundations of Skill Acquisition [**The Three-Stage Model of Skill Acquisition for Mixed Martial Arts**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/three-stage-model-skill-acquisition-martial-art/) A useful entry point into traditional models of learning and how athletes move from conscious effort toward more automatic performance. [**The Spectrum of Teaching Styles for Grappling & Martial Arts**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/spectrum-teaching-styles-grappling-martial-arts/) A framework for thinking about how much control sits with the coach and how much sits with the learner. [**Self-Determination Theory of Motivation for Mixed Martial Arts**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) Looks at autonomy, competence and relatedness, and why motivation is part of coaching design rather than something separate from it. ## Representative Practice and Game-Based Learning [**A Game Sense Style Pedagogy for Teaching Beach Wrestling**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/game-sense-style-pedagogy-teaching-wrestling/) A practical example of designing practice around live problems rather than isolated technical rehearsal. [**Greg Souders on the Ecological Approach to Jiu-Jitsu**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) One of the key conversations in the archive on teaching without relying on a conventional technique-first model. [**Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) A useful comparison of related but distinct approaches to grappling pedagogy and skill development. [**Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) Extends ecological ideas beyond grappling into striking and mixed martial arts. ## Lesson Design, Concepts and Athlete Ownership [**Lachlan Giles on the Reverse Classroom and BJJ Skill Acquisition**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/lachlan-giles-reverse-classroom-skill/) Explores self-directed learning and how experienced athletes can take more ownership over what and how they practise. [**Rob Biernacki on Pedagogy, BJJ Concepts and Gamification**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/rob-biernacki-interview-pedagogy-bjj-concepts/) A strong discussion of conceptual instruction, games and how coaches organise information for learners. [**John Will on Designing BJJ Lessons & Learning Jiu-Jitsu**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/john-will-designing-bjj-lessons-learning/) Practical coaching insight from one of Australia's pioneering Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructors. ## Play, Creativity and Adaptability [**The Mythology of Play with Michael Phillip**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) Connects play, creativity, structure and learning to broader philosophical ideas while still returning to practical martial arts coaching. [**Mastering the Art of Flow Rolling for Grapplers**](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/) Looks at cooperative exploration, chaining movement and using lower-intensity practice to develop awareness and connections. ## How to Use This List If you coach, read one item from each section rather than staying inside a single theory. Compare the assumptions each approach makes about instruction, repetition, representative practice, autonomy and feedback. The useful question is not which model wins. It is which practice design best helps the athlete solve the problem in front of them. For discipline-specific material, continue to [Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/) or [Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/). ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/) **Published:** January 23, 2020 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/coach_header-1.jpg "coach_header › Sonny Brown") # Coaching # Martial Arts Coaching, Analysis & Education I coach, analyse and write about how martial artists learn, adapt and perform. This page is the main gateway to my work across coaching, skill acquisition, ecological dynamics, Jiu-Jitsu, grappling and mixed martial arts. For in-person training, I coach full-time at [Apex MMA, Muay Thai & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.apexmma.com.au) in Brookvale on Sydney's Northern Beaches. # Explore the Main Topics **Coaching & Skill Acquisition** Explore coaching theory, skill acquisition, lesson design and learning across martial arts. [Explore Coaching & Skill Acquisition](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-coaching/). **Ecological Dynamics & CLA** Explore ecological dynamics, representative learning design and constraints-led coaching for combat sports. [Explore Ecological Dynamics & CLA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-dynamics-martial-arts/). **Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling** Explore No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu, grappling, wrestling, submissions, coaching and grappling history. [Explore Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jiu-jitsu-grappling/). # Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) ![Sonny Brown MMA Coaching](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_coaching.jpg "sonnybrown_coaching › Sonny Brown") Explore mixed martial arts training, coaching and analysis across striking, clinching, wrestling and grappling. MMA is where these ranges connect and where adaptable decision-making matters most. [Explore Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mixed-martial-arts-mma/). # Coaching Testimonials Sonny is dedicated to the craft of mixed martial arts but even more so to his students. Since day one of training he has been there to guide and teach me both in the gym, cage side and in regular day to day life. Couldn't ask for a better coach. Connor Paton Sonny has an incredible wealth of fighting knowledge and experience. He has a deep understanding of the most technical parts of the sport. In every training session Sonny brought a great attitude and taught me much about MMA- I wouldn’t hesitate to say he is the best wrestling coach I’ve had the pleasure of working with. I couldn’t give higher praise. Cameron Berkeley Sonny is a fantastic coach who not only breaks down techniques and concepts in a clear and concise manner but also puts a lot of thought into learning strategies for his students. A true martial artist. David Nicol Sonny was a great teacher in my earlier days of martial arts. He didn’t just open my mind to the physical side of techniques but also the mentality require. Him coming from a competitive background gave him credibility that is impossible not to respect. Couldn’t recommend him more. Sam Flint Sonny’s extensive knowledge and his capacity to genuinely listen to questions translates into his ability to provide valuable insight into any facet of martial arts. Sessions are always creative and enjoyable whilst maintaining a focus on putting in hard work. Highlight of my training! Daniel Reeves # Work With Me I coach full-time at [Apex MMA, Muay Thai & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.apexmma.com.au) in Brookvale and also work with athletes through private coaching and seminars where appropriate. For enquiries, use the [contact page](https://www.sonnybrown.net/contact/). My background includes a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt rank, three Australian MMA championships, and coaching across MMA, Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. Read the full background on the [About Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/) page. ![Sport Aus](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/aussport.png "Sport Aus › Sonny Brown") [![Community Coaching General Principles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Community-Coaching-General-Principles-400x516.jpg "Community Coaching General Principles › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Community-Coaching-General-Principles-scaled.jpg "Community Coaching General Principles") ### Community Coaching General Principles [![SportAus Competition Routines](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Competition-Routines-400x516.jpg "SportAus Competition Routines › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Competition-Routines-scaled.jpg "SportAus Competition Routines") ### SportAus Competition Routines [![Introduction to the Integrity of Sport](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Introduction-to-the-Integrity-of-Sport-400x516.jpg "Introduction to the Integrity of Sport › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Introduction-to-the-Integrity-of-Sport-scaled.jpg "Introduction to the Integrity of Sport") ### Introduction to the Integrity of Sport ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [About](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/) **Published:** July 16, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![About Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/about_header.jpg "About Sonny Brown › Sonny Brown") # About ## Sonny Brown - BJJ Black Belt. 3× Australian MMA Champion. Coach. I'm Sonny Brown, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, three-time Australian MMA champion, and full-time martial arts coach based in Sydney. I'm the co-founder of [Apex MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au) on Sydney's Northern Beaches, the host of [The Sonny Brown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/) podcast, a martial arts commentator and event emcee, and the syllabus author for the [Train Alta](https://www.trainalta.com) 20-Week Warrior Training Program, and head of marketing and social media for NYSE-listed [Mixed Martial Arts Group](https://mma.inc) (MMA.INC). What follows is how I got here. ![Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_bb_standup.jpg "sonnybrown_bb_standup › Sonny Brown") ### **Experience** ### Current Roles - Co-founder & Head Coach, [Apex MMA, Muay Thai & Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.apexmma.com.au) - Host, [The Sonny Brown Breakdown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/) podcast. - Syllabus Author, [Train Alta](https://www.trainalta.com) 20-Week Warrior Training Program. - Head of Marketing & Social Media, [MMA.INC](https://mma.inc) (NYSE: MMA). ### Credentials - Bachelor of Education (Health & Physical Education) - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt (2nd Degree) - Level 2 Folkstyle Wrestling Coach, [The Wrestling Foundation](https://thewrestlingfoundation.com.au/) ### Competition Record - 35+ medals across state and national grappling competitions. - 10+ fights as a Professional Mixed Martial Arts Competitor. - 3-time Australian Mixed Martial Arts Champion. - 18+ years training, 8+ years coaching, - 15+ years of competition experience across striking, wrestling and grappling. - Only Australian to win an MMA bout via Gogoplata choke ## Biography ### STARTING Martial Arts & Competing I started training martial arts seriously in 2007, beginning with Shoot Fighting, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling all at the same time at Langes MMA under BJJ world champion, Shooto veteran and Australian MMA pioneer Coach Anthony Lange. At the time, I was working full-time in IT as a network administrator. I had my first amateur MMA bout for [Shooto Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooto), fell in love with the competition side and started to compete regularly in professional Mixed Martial Arts bouts and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu competitions. I was eventually able to win three MMA title bouts, becoming a three-time Australian Mixed Martial Arts Champion in the lightweight division and beating standouts [Dan Hooker](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/18854-daniel-hooker) and [Damien Brown](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21404-damien-brown). I was also lucky enough to secure one MMA victory via Gogoplata choke, and at this stage am still the only person in Australia to do so. Alongside MMA, I found success in No-Gi grappling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu competitions, winning roughly 18 gold, 10 silver and 7 bronze medals at state and national level. ### Teaching & The Transition to Coaching Eventually, I stopped competing in MMA, attended the University of Sydney, and changed careers into teaching by earning a Bachelor of Education in Health & Physical Education. During that time of transformation, I began using my IT background to produce technical [video analysis](https://www.sonnybrown.net/videos/) and breakdowns of Mixed Martial Arts bouts, uploading them to YouTube. I also began shifting my focus more towards coaching rather than competing, drawing on the new coaching knowledge I was gaining from my studies. I even experimented with Tae Kwon Do through the university and competed in the art. In 2017, I was awarded my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt by my coach, 4th Degree Black Belt Anthony Lange, and I've continued to train, teach and compete in grappling ever since. I also developed a renewed interest in American Folkstyle wrestling, earning my Level 2 Folkstyle Wrestling Coach qualification with [The Wrestling Foundation](https://thewrestlingfoundation.com.au/) under the guidance of my wrestling coach Gary Jones. I was also fortunate enough to referee the first-ever Folkstyle Wrestling tournament held in Australia, which was a fantastic event. The breakdown and technical analysis videos I was producing began to be favourably received by viewers, including positive feedback from members of the martial arts community and even some of the people I'd featured: Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, Karo Parisyan, Phil Davis and the coach of the Granby High wrestling school among them. ### The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast In 2019, I started [The Sonny Brown Breakdown podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/) to have long-form conversations on the training, teaching, health and education of mixed martial arts. Over more than 60 episodes, I have been lucky enough to sit down with some of the most respected names in the game, including MMA Hall of Famer Chris Brennan, Combat Submission Wrestling founder Erik Paulson, ADCC medallists Craig Jones and Lachlan Giles, Daisy Fresh founder Heath Pedigo, author and Joe Rogan Experience regular Daniele Bolelli, Australia's first BJJ black belt John Will, alongside coaching innovators like Priit Mihkelson, Greg Souders and Christian Graugart. The podcast has grown to a worldwide audience across Australia, the United States, Europe and Asia, with millions of listens to date, and is [ranked by Listen Notes](https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-sonny-brown-breakdown-sonny-brown-ec36s5WwLJR/) in the top 1% of podcasts globally. ### OPENING Apex MMA, Muay THai & Jiu-Jitsu Not long after I began teaching, the pandemic arrived. That period of disruption forced a rethink of what the next phase of my martial arts career was going to look like, and it ended up opening up a number of new opportunities I would not have otherwise expected. The biggest of those was the start of my own academy. In 2022, when Coach Anthony Lange closed the doors of Langes MMA after nearly three decades and I started [Apex MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au) in Brookvale on Sydney's Northern Beaches. We have since produced a fight team with a winning record above 70% and 2 Australian Muay Thai Champions and well as state, national and pan pacific Jiu-Jitsu champions. ### DEVELOPING Train Alta & MMA.INC Around the same time, I was given the opportunity to write the syllabus for the 20-Week Warrior Training Program with [Train Alta](https://www.trainalta.com). A staged curriculum of 100 classes that takes someone with no prior experience through foundations, technique and movement, pressure and preparation, and into an optional amateur MMA bout at the end of the 20 weeks. Through the program, I have also had the chance to work and collaborate with some of the biggest names in the sport, including two-division UFC champion Daniel Cormier, UFC commentator Laura Sanko, and Conor McGregor's long-time coach John Kavanagh. It has since been run over 200 times worldwide and is now distributed through UFC Gyms and independent partner gyms across Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, the United States and beyond. I also moved into leading the marketing and social media for the parent company, which in April 2024 listed on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol "MMA". The business rebranded from Alta Global Group to [Mixed Martial Arts Group](https://mma.inc), MMA.INC, in December 2024, bringing the Warrior Training Program, the UFC Gym partnership, gym management platform BJJLINK, marketing platform Hype and the mixedmartialarts.com community under the one umbrella. Being involved in the growth of a publicly listed martial arts company has been a unique experience and has given me a view of the industry I would never have got from the mats alone. I now look forward to continuing to grow in all these endeavours into the future. # Competition Footage [![Sonny Brown Belt Checker](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/beltcheckerlogo.gif "Sonny Brown Belt Checker › Sonny Brown")](https://www.beltchecker.com/profile.php?id=303) ### **Interviews & Media Articles** [Sonny Brown: Aussie MMA’s hidden hero by Sam Brown](https://www.theroar.com.au/2013/02/13/sonny-brown-aussie-mmas-hidden-superhero/)[Sonny Brown: Chasing a Fight to Remember at Brace 20 by Neil Rooke](http://themmacorner.com/2013/05/09/sonny-brown-chasing-a-fight-to-remember-at-brace-20/) [ADCC Post Match Interviews For FloGrappling](https://www.flograppling.com/collections/7845828-meet-the-newest-trials-champions-adcc-asia-oceania-trials-interviews/video?playing=7845820) [BJJ Mental Models Podcast: Kesa-Gatame Position Series](https://podcast.bjjmentalmodels.com/243161/8565301) [Stephan Kesting Podcast: Beating BJJ Instructional Overwhelm](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beating-bjj-instructional-overwhelm-with-sonny-brown/id320705565?i=1000526942312) # Favourite Media  ## Documentaries - Bookwars - The Devil at Your Heels - The King of Kong - Choke - A Rickson Gracie Documentary - The Parking Lot Movie - Hitman Hart: Wrestling With Shadows - American Movie - Renzo Gracie Legacy - Jiro Dreams of Sushi - Man on Wire - The Smashing Machine - Grizzly Man - Maybe Logic - Like Water - Somm  ## Books - Warrior Athlete: Body Mind Spirit by Dan Millman - Ego Is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday - So, You're a Creative Genius, Now What? by Carl King - Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday - It's Not How Good You Are, It's How Good You Want To Be by Paul Arden - Warrior of the Light by Paulo Coelho - The Tao of Wu by The RZA - How to Think Like a Roman Emperor by Donald Robertson - The War of Art by Steven Pressfield - The Art of Learning by Joshua Waitzkin  ## Albums - Estradasphere - Buck Fever - Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein - Secret Chiefs 3 - Book of Horizons - Digable Planets - Reachin' (A New Refutation of Time and Space) - Mr Bungle - California - CZARFACE - Every Hero Needs a Villain - Alvarius B - Blood Operatives of the Barium Sunset - Dynatron - Escape Velocity - Erkin Koray - Elektronik Türküler - Kool Keith - Lost in Space - Ananda Shankar - Ananda Shankar And His Music - Peter Thomas Sound Orchester - Raumpatrouille ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [MMA & BJJ Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/podcast/) **Published:** October 27, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![MMA & BJJ Podcast](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/podcast_header.jpg "MMA & BJJ Podcast › Sonny Brown") # Podcast Hosted by [Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/), The Sonny Brown Breakdown is an MMA & BJJ podcast that explores the training, teaching and health of martial arts. In each episode, Sonny is joined by a guest expert to discuss a different aspect of the sport. From Jiu-Jitsu, Kickboxing, Catch Wrestling & MMA, they cover everything you need to know to be a successful fighter. But it's not just about the technical side of things. They also touch on the importance of mental preparation and focus, as well as the importance of proper nutrition for fighters. With Sonny's experience and knowledge, and with experts from all over the world, The Sonny Brown Breakdown is essential listening for anyone interested in martial arts. If you enjoy **The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast**, then please **Rate**, **Subscribe** and **Share** the **Podcast**. # The Sonny Brown Breakdown Podcast Episodes & Show Notes [![The Mythology of Play in Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_068_header.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/)### [The Mythology of Play With Michael Phillip](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) I talk to Michael Phillip, host of the long-running philosophy and esoterica podcast Third Eye Drops, where he conducts what he calls "mind melds" with authors, musicians, thinkers, and mystics on topics ranging from Jungian psychology and... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-mythology-of-play-with-michael-phillip/) [![Luke Martin - Sydney West Online](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_067_tn_widescreen.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systematic-coaching-team-building-with-luke-martin/)### [Systematic Coaching & Team Building with Luke Martin](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systematic-coaching-team-building-with-luke-martin/) I talk to Luke Martin from Sydney West Martial Arts, Luke has been on the podcast several times before, and this marks ten years since he began his journey of bringing the world-class Danaher grappling system to his gym in Penrith. We discuss his... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/systematic-coaching-team-building-with-luke-martin/) [![The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_66_wide.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/)### [The Ecological Approach vs Embodied Grappling With Greg Souders & School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) I talk to Andy from School of Grappling and Greg Souders from Standard Jiu-Jitsu about the ecological approach to teaching grappling. We explore the theory and practice of this method, discussing experience, perception, and consciousness. Andy... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-ecological-approach-vs-embodied-grappling/) [![Embodied Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/tsbb_65_wide.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/)### [Embodied Grappling Philosophy & Practice With Andy From School of Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/) I talk to Andy from School of Grappling about the rising trend of the ecological approach in BJJ coaching and its implications in comparisons to his ideas of embodied grappling. We explore the interplay between culture, coaching methods, and... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/embodied-grappling-philosophy-with-school-of-grappling/) [![Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/Scott_Sievewright.webp)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/)### [Ecological Approach to MMA Striking with Scott Sievewright](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) I talk to Scott Sievewright, who discusses his ecological approach to coaching martial arts. He emphasises the importance of live, unscripted sparring from day one to build skills, arguing that traditional techniques taught in isolation don't... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-mma-striking-scott-sievewright/) [![Ecological Approach to BJJ - Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/greg_souders_priit_mihkelson.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/)### [Ecological Approach vs Progressive Resistance with Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) I talk to Greg Souders and Priit Mihkelson, two innovative jiu-jitsu coaches of our time, delving into their training philosophies and approaches to practice. Greg champions an ecological approach, centered on constraints and fundamental functions,... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/ecological-approach-greg-souders-priit-mihkelson/) [![Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/kabir_bath.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/)### [Kabir Bath On Jiu-Jitsu Games For Teaching Kids & Adults](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) I talk to Kabir Bath, A Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt under Rafael Lovato Jnr, who runs Kaboom Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He runs an excellent kid's program using only constraints-based learning games where he exclusively uses jiu-jitsu games for teaching kids... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/kabir-bath-on-jiu-jitsu-games-for-teaching-kids-adults/) [![Greg Souders](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/greg_souders_tn_wide.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/)### [Greg Souders On Teaching Jiu-Jitsu Without Teaching Techniques](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) I talk to Greg Souders, a Jiu-Jitsu black belt and academy owner who has found success through the ecological approach to skill development - a method backed by research confirming its efficacy in motor learning. Rather than relying on memorized... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/greg-souders-ecological-approach-jiu-jitsu/) [![Chris Paines BJJ Training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/chris_paines_header.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/)### [Chris Paines On BJJ Training Progress, Evolution & Control Points](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) I talk to Chris Paines, a BJJ Black Belt under Priit Mihkelson, who recently released an instructional titled "How to Defend Against Everyone". We discuss his thoughts on teaching and learning Jiu-Jitsu through the use of heuristics focusing on... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/chris-paines-bjj-progress-evolution/) [![Luke Martin ADCC Preparation](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/luke_martin_adcc.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/)### [Luke Martin On ADCC Training At New Wave Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) I talk to Luke Martin, a Jiu-Jitsu coach currently preparing his athletes for the ADCC world championships out of the New Wave Jiu-Jitsu camp in Texas with John Danaher, Gordon Ryan, Gary Tonon, Nicholas Meregali and the rest of the New Wave ADCC... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/luke-martin-adcc-new-wave/) [![Mittmaster Matt Chapman](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/mittmaster_matt_chapman.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/)### [Mittmaster Matt Chapman On TLC For Training & MMA Padwork](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/) I talk to Mittmaster Matt Chapman, a martial artist for 35 years who has a wealth of experience instructing Jeet Kune Do, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA. He provides valuable insights on how nurturing and caring for new martial arts students helps... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mittmaster-matt-mma-padwork/) [![Jeremy Skinner](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/jeremy_paul_skinner.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/)### [Jeremy Skinner On Quality Jiu-Jitsu Instruction & BJJ Competition Teams](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/) I talk to Jeremy Skinner, a Jiu-Jitsu black belt who recently won the ADCC Oceana trials, which will see him compete at the 2022 ADCC World championships. While earning his black belt under Lachlan Giles, he recently began competing and training... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/jeremy-skinner-quality-jiu-jitsu/) [« Older Entries](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-cron.php/?doing_wp_cron=1791993023.4220249652862548828125&paged=2&et_blog) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Videos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/videos/) **Published:** April 7, 2019 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sonny Brown Videos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/videos_header.jpg "Sonny Brown Videos › Sonny Brown") # Videos I have been making video essays and publishing them on YouTube for many years. The topics that I generally cover include Mixed Martial Arts analysis, breakdowns, documentaries and various topics of athletic performance, coaching styles, technical advice and interview snippets from my podcast. I believe that my experience in martial arts, education and Information Technology has given me the skills to make high-quality video essays that are both informative and entertaining. My mission is to [share my knowledge](https://www.sonnybrown.net/coaching/) with as many people as possible and to help them improve their lives through martial arts training. View the videos below and [Subscribe to the YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/sonnybrown) channel to stay notified when new videos are released. #### As featured on: ![As featured on:](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/asfeaturedon.png "Sonny Brown Featured On › Sonny Brown") [Subscribe to My YouTube Channel](https://bit.ly/2GEyeDo) ## \[yotuwp type="username" id="PunchKidsdotnet" \] ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Articles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/articles/) **Published:** April 4, 2016 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Sonny Brown Articles](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/articles_header.jpg "Sonny Brown Articles › Sonny Brown") # Articles [![Sonny Brown - Rubberguard](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_rubberguard-610x343.png)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/)### [Why I Don’t Teach Rubber Guard Anymore & Attribute Based Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/) I am still the only person in Australia to win an MMA fight and a championship title via a gogoplata submission set up from rubber guard. Eddie Bravo gave me a shoutout, the sequence was featured on his "Mastering the System" series, and for a... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-i-dont-teach-rubber-guard-anymore/) [![Sonny Brown training MMA padwork](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_padwork_5.png)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-everyone-loves-the-padman/)### [Why Everyone Loves the Padman (And What That Tells Us About How We Train)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-everyone-loves-the-padman/) I've spent years arguing that padwork is overrated. So naturally, I found myself in Tokyo, paying top dollar for a private session with the most expensive padman I could find. It's December 2025, and I was trying to fit in as much training as... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/why-everyone-loves-the-padman/) [![Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/20_maeda_myths.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/)### [Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/) The following article, The 20 Myths of Mitsuyo Maeda, was originally published on Roberto Pedreira’s Global Training Report, a vital resource for anyone interested in the true history of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. As that website is no longer active,... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/top-20-myths-about-mitsuyo-maeda/) [![Martial Arts Uniform Policies](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/uniform_policy.webp)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-uniform-policies/)### [Beginners Guide to Uniform Policies in Jiu-Jitsu](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-uniform-policies/) From strict dress codes to freedom of choice, uniforms touch on issues of tradition, control, accessibility, and identity. Some see uniform policies as essential for preserving tradition and creating community. In contrast, others view them as... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/martial-arts-uniform-policies/) [![The Art of Flow Rolling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/the_art_of_flow_rolling.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/)### [Mastering the Art of Flow Rolling for Grapplers](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/) Flow rolling is an essential training technique for grapplers that focuses on fluid transitions and technique chaining. It’s not about winning but improving movement, reactions, and awareness. [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mastering-the-art-of-flow-rolling-for-grapplers/) [![The Martial Artist's Journey](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/The_Martial_Artists_Journey-.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-martial-artists-journey-growth-through-adversity/)### [The Martial Artist’s Journey & Growth Through Adversity](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-martial-artists-journey-growth-through-adversity/) The Martial Artist's Journey provides a path to self-improvement by challenging the mind and body. Their origins lie in philosophies of honour, self-mastery, and service to others. Though combat stands at the core, martial arts refine character,... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/the-martial-artists-journey-growth-through-adversity/) [![Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bjj_mental_health.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/an-inside-look-at-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-and-mental-health/)### [An Inside Look at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Mental Health](https://www.sonnybrown.net/an-inside-look-at-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-and-mental-health/) After over 15 years of training, I have found that Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) can positively and negatively influence mental health. The positive side of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and mental health I will discuss is how training BJJ can help get you out... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/an-inside-look-at-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-and-mental-health/) [![Self Determination Theory Of Motivation For Martial Artists](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/self_determination_theory_martial_arts-1.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/)### [Self-Determination Theory Of Motivation For Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) Motivated students are required in every martial arts academy as it will drive them to want to improve. While multiple theories of motivation exist, one that has been extensively studied in education settings is Self-Determination Theory.... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/self-determination-theory-motivation/) [![Music Improvisation & Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/music_improvisation_martial_arts.jpg)](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/)### [Learning Musical Improvisation to Improve Your Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/) Master jazz musician Clark Terry had a unique approach to musical improvisation, specifically jazz improvisation and many other topics. His style of learning musical improvisation is one we can explicitly apply to our martial arts training and... [read more](https://www.sonnybrown.net/learning-musical-improvisation-martial-arts/) [« Older Entries](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-cron.php/?doing_wp_cron=1791993023.4220249652862548828125&paged=2&et_blog) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Contact](https://www.sonnybrown.net/contact/) **Published:** February 12, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ![Contact Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/contact_header.jpg "Contact Sonny Brown › Sonny Brown") # Contact I love getting feedback from my readers, listeners and viewers. It helps me to understand what people are interested in and where I could improve. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to reach out to me by email. I'll try to respond as soon as possible. You can also find me on the social media accounts listed below. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any suggestions on how I could improve my content. I'm always open to new ideas! Thank you for your support. # Email Name Email Address Message 1 + 12 = Submit # Social Media - [Follow](http://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown "Follow on Facebook")[Follow](http://www.facebook.com/sonnybrown "Follow on Facebook") - [Follow](http://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown "Follow on X")[Follow](http://www.twitter.com/sonnybrown "Follow on X") - [Follow](http://www.instagram.com/sonnybrown "Follow on Instagram")[Follow](http://www.instagram.com/sonnybrown "Follow on Instagram") - [Follow](http://www.youtube.com/c/sonnybrown "Follow on Youtube")[Follow](http://www.youtube.com/c/sonnybrown "Follow on Youtube") - [Follow](http://www.pinterest.com/sonny_brown "Follow on Pinterest")[Follow](http://www.pinterest.com/sonny_brown "Follow on Pinterest") Thanks for considering giving me some feedback - it's always appreciated. I'm currently most responsive on Instagram and Twitter, so if you've got something to say, those are the best places to reach me. I promise to take any feedback on board and use it to improve my work going forward. Thanks again - and feel free to get in touch any time! --- ### [Mixed Martial Arts Northern Beaches](https://www.sonnybrown.net/mma-northern-beaches/) **Published:** May 11, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** I have grown up on the MMA Northern Beaches my entire life having been born in Mona Vale and going to school at Elanora and Manly. When i decided that I wanted to start training MMA I had a comprehensive look around at the available options but knew the best choice was **[**[APEX MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au)**](http://www.langesmma.com)** which had been around for as long as I could remember and is a Northern Beaches institution. Head Coach Anthony Lange has the most experience and skills in coaching than anyone else in the area having coached the first-ever Australian to fight in the UFC. ## MMA Northern Beaches When I began my journey, it was just as a hobby to keep fit and gain confidence but eventually, I wanted to have a pro fight. Fighting is certainly not required of anyone who intends to train as it can be kept solely to fun, fitness and skills but it was something I wanted to experience. MMA training at Langes MMA provided me with an excellent environment to further myself, and I ended up winning three national mixed martial arts titles under the skilled guidance of coach Anthony Lange. If you live on the MMA Northern Beaches and are looking to train MMA, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or just Martial arts in general, then I strongly suggest you check out **[**[APEX MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au)**](http://www.langesmma.com)**. Regards, [Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/ "About") ![MMA Northern Beaches](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/mmanorthernbeaches.jpg "mmanorthernbeaches › Sonny Brown") ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Northern Beaches Jiu-Jitsu - Where to train!](https://www.sonnybrown.net/bjj-northern-beaches/) **Published:** May 11, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** I have spent the last eight years training BJJ Northern Beaches at **[APEX MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au)** in Manly. As someone who has grown up on the northern beaches, I respect the welcoming vibe of the club for when I am feeling like a casual BJJ session or the competition classes when I am getting ready to compete. The head instructor Anthony Lange has world-class knowledge and is a World Champion in BJJ himself and has also trained other BJJ world champions. The environment at the club has not only allowed me to get fit and meet a range of like-minded people, but It also gave me a great competitive outlet as I have been able to medal and compete at many Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu competitions all around Australia. Anthony Lange BJJ lineage is through the Machado Family, with his teacher being [John Will](https://www.bjj.com.au/pages/john-will "https://www.bjj.com.au/pages/john-will") who was one of the first non-Brazilians to get a BJJ black belt. Anthony is a registered IBJJF (International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation) black belt so you can rest assured he is legit. Machado Jiu-Jitsu lineage is also the same lineage as practised by Joe Rogan, Eddie Bravo and even Chuck Noris! In Recent years Carlos Machado himself has been teaching a yearly seminar at the club along with many other BJJ Legends. But despite an excellent lineage and having wonderful guest instructors the primary deciding factor that has kept me at Langes MMA is the high level of BJJ instruction that teaches their every single day. ### BJJ Northern Beaches In turn, this has developed a very high level of training partners for me to practice with and improve my BJJ skills and fostered a great club culture that welcomes everyone for fun on the mats. If you are on the northern beaches and looking to learn BJJ, then I highly recommend you check out **[**[APEX MMA](https://www.apexmma.com.au)**](http://www.langesmma.com)** for yourself and see what you think. Regards, [Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/ "About") ![BJJ Northern BEaches](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/blackbelt.jpg "BJJ Northern BEaches › Sonny Brown") ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Photographs Of Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** ## [BJJ & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/bjj-photos/) [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj13-300x199.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/bjj-photos/) ## [Stu Foto Art Photos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/stu-foto-art-photos/) [![sonnybrownstufotoart8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart8-300x200.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/stu-foto-art-photos/) ## [BRACE 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-11/) [![Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters2-244x300.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-11/) ## [BRACE 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-war-19/) [![gaset-vs-brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/gaset-vs-brown-179x300.jpg "gaset-vs-brown › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-war-19/) ## [BRACE 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-20/) [![Brace for War 20 - Greg Atzori vs Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/BFW20-Atzori-V-Brown-202x300.jpg "BFW20 Atzori V Brown › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-20/) ## [Cage Fighting Championships 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/cage-fighting-championships-19/) [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc195-300x200.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/cage-fighting-championships-19/) ## [Proud Warrior Productions 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/proud-warrior-productions-5/) ## [![sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006-255x300.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/proud-warrior-productions-5/) ## [RIZE 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-3/) [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize310-199x300.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-3/) ## [RIZE 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-4/) [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize418-300x198.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-4/) ## [TUFFA 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/tuffa-9/) [![Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar1-300x199.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/tuffa-9/) ## [Miscellaneous ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/miscellaneous/) [![Sonny Brown Image - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics6-300x200.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/miscellaneous/) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Cage Fighting Championships 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/cage-fighting-championships-19/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of Sonny Brown vs [Ricky Rea](https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ricky-Rea-75712 "https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ricky-Rea-75712") From Cage Fighting Championship 19 in Sydney, Australia Held at Luna Park and Televised on Fox Sports. - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc191.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc191.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc192.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc192.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc193.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc193.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc194.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc194.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc195.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc195.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc196.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc196.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc197.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc197.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc198.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc198.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc199.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc199.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1910.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1910.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1911.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1911.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1912.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1912.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1913.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1913.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1914.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1914.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 15](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1915.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1915.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 16](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1916.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc1916.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Miscellaneous](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/miscellaneous/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** A Miscellaneous Collection of Jiu-Jitsu, MMA & Grappling Training, Sparring and Competition Photographs of Sonny Brown. - [![Sonny Brown Image - 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics1.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics1.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics2.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics2.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics3.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics3.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics4.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics4.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics5.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics5.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics6.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics6.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics7.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics7.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics8.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics8.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics9.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics9.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics10.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics10.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics11.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics11.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics12.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics12.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics13.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics13.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics14.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics14.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 15](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics15.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics15.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 16](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics16.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics16.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 17](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics17.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 17 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics17.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics18.png "Sonny Brown Image - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics18.png) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics19.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 19 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics19.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics20.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 20 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics20.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 21](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics21.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 21 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics21.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 22](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics22.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 22 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics22.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 23](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics23.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 23 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics23.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 24](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics24.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 24 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics24.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 25](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics25.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 25 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics25.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 26](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics26.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 26 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics26.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 27](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics27.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 27 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics27.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 28](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics28.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 28 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics28.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 29](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics29.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 29 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics29.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 30](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics30.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 30 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics30.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 31](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics31.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 31 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics31.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 32](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics32.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 32 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics32.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 33](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics33.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 33 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics33.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 34](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics34.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 34 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics34.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 35](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics35.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 35 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics35.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - 36](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics36.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 36 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics36.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters3.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters3.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters1.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters1.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters2.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters2.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown MMA](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics151.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics151.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics161.jpg "SonnyBrownPics16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics161.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics171.jpg "SonnyBrownPics17 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics171.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics18.jpg "SonnyBrownPics18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics18.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics191.jpg "SonnyBrownPics19 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics191.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace Front Kick Friday](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bracefrontkick.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace Front Kick Friday › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/bracefrontkick.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_113.jpg "sonny_brown_113) › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_113.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_1112.jpg "sonny_brown_1112 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_1112.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Rize 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-3/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of Sonny Brown Vs [Chris Bridgewater](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5280969/ "https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5280969/") from Rize MMA 3 in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize31.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize31.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize32.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize32.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize33.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize33.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize34.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize34.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize35.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize35.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize36.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize36.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize37.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize37.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize38.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize38.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize39.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize39.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize310.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize310.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize311.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize311.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize312.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize312.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize313.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize313.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize314.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize314.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 15](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize315.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize315.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 16](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize316.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize316.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 17](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize317.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 17 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize317.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize318.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize318.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize319.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 19 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize319.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize320.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 20 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize320.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Rize 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-4/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of Sonny Brown Vs [Dan Hooker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hooker "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hooker") from Rize MMA 4 in Brisbane, where Sonny won the Australian Lightweight Championship Title with an Anaconda Choke. - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize4-19.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 19 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize4-19.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize4-21.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 20 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize4-21.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize41.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize41.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize42.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize42.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize43.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize43.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize44.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize44.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize45.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize45.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize46.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize46.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize47.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize47.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize48.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize48.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize49.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize49.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize410.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize410.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize411.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize411.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize412.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize412.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize413.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize413.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize414.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize414.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 15](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize415.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize415.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 16](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize416.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize416.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize418.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize418.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Stu Foto Art Photos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/stu-foto-art-photos/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs were taken of [Sonny Brown](https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sonny-Brown-12132 "https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sonny-Brown-12132") by Stuart Nairne / Stu Foto Art. These were taken after winning the Rize Lightweight MMA Championship Title of Australia. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart1.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart1.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart2.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart2.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart3.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart3.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart4.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart4.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart5.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart5.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart6.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart6.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart7.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart7.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart8.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart8.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart9.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart9.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart10.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart10.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart11.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart11.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart12.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart12.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart13.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart13.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart14.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart14.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart15.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart15.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart16.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart16.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown MMA Rize Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart17.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA Rize Champion › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart17.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Tuffa 9 - Sonny Brown Vs Jacob Pettit Photographs](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/tuffa-9/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of Sonny Brown Vs [Jacob Pettit ](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/25373-jacob-pettit "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/25373-jacob-pettit")from Tuffa MMA 9, where Sonny won the Tuffa Australian Lightweight Championship Title with a Guillotine Choke. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa91.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa91 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa91.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa92.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa92 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa92.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa93.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa93 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa93.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa94.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa94 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa94.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa95.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa95 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa95.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa96.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa96 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa96.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa97.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa97 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa97.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa98.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa98 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa98.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa99.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa99 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa99.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa910.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa910 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa910.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa911.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa911 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa911.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa912.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa912 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa912.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa913.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa913 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa913.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa914.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa914 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa914.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa915.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa915 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa915.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa916.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa916 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa916.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa917.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa917 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa917.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa918.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa918 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa918.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa919.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa919 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa919.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa920.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa920 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa920.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa921.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa921 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa921.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa922.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa922 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa922.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa923.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa923 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa923.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa924.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa924 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa924.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa925.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa925 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa925.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa926.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa926 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa926.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa927.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa927 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa927.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa928.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa928 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa928.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa929.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa929 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa929.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown vs Jacob Pettit at Tuffa 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa930.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa930 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa930.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa931.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa931 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa931.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa932.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa932 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa932.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa933.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa933 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa933.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa934.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa934 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa934.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa935.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa935 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa935.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa936.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa936 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa936.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa937.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa937 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa937.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa938.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa938 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa938.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa939.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa939 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa939.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa940.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa940 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa940.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa941.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa941 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa941.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa942.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa942 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa942.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa943.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa943 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa943.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa944.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa944 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa944.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa945.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa945 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa945.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa946.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa946 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa946.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa947.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa947 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa947.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa948.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa948 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa948.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa949.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa949 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa949.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa950.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa950 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa950.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa951.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa951 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa951.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa952.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa952 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa952.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa953.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa953 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa953.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa954.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa954 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa954.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa9manowar › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine2.jpg "sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9guillotine2.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar1.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar1.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Brace for War 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-20/) **Published:** April 13, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of Sonny Brown Vs [Greg Atzori](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/25369-greg-atzori "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/25369-greg-atzori") from BRACE MMA 20 in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia at the Brisbane Broncos Leagues Club. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_00.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_00 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_00.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_01.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_01 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_01.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_02.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_02 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_02.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_03.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_03 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_03.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_04.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_04 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_04.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_05.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_05 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_05.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_06.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_06 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_06.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_07.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_07 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_07.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_08.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_08 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_08.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_09.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_09 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_09.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_10.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_10.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_11.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_11.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_12.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_12.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_13.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_13.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_14.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_14.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_15.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_15.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_16.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_16.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_17.jpg "sonny_brown_bfw20_17 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_bfw20_17.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Brace for War 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-war-19/) **Published:** April 13, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of [Sonny Brown](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown") Vs [Oriol Gaset](https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Oriol-Gaset-21180 "https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Oriol-Gaset-21180") from BRACE MMA 19 in Sydney, New South Wales. This was a defence of the Brace Lightweight title at Luna Park. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19001.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19001 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19001.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19002.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19002 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19002.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19003.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19003 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19003.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19004.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19004 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19004.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19005.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19005 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19005.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19006.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19006 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19006.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19007.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19007 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19007.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19008.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19008 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19008.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19009.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19009 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19009.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19010.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19010 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19010.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19011.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19011 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19011.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19012.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19012 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19012.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19013.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19013 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19013.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19014.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19014 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19014.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19015.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19015 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19015.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19016.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19016 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19016.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19017.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19017 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19017.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19018.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19018 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19018.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19019.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19019 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19019.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19020.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19020 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19020.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19021.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19021 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19021.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19022.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19022 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19022.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19023.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19023 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19023.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19024.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19024 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19024.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19025.jpg "sonnybrownmmabrace19025 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmabrace19025.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Brace for War 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-11/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of [Sonny Brown](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown") Vs [Damien Brown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Brown_(fighter) "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Brown_(fighter)") from BRACE MMA 11 in Queensland. Where Sonny won the Australian Lightweight Championship Title With a Gogoplata. - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 37](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-37.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 37 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-37.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 38](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-38.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 38 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-38.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 35](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-35.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 35 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-35.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 34](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-34.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 34 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-34.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 36](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-36.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 36 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-36.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-39.jpg "sonnybrownbraceforwar11 39 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-39.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 33](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-33-1024x1024.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 33 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-33.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 32](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-32.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 32 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-32.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 31](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-31-1024x1024.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 31 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-31.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 30](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-30.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 30 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-30.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 29](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-29.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 29 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-29.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 28](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-28.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 28 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-28.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 27](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-27.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 27 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-27.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 26](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-26.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 26 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-26.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 25](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-25-1024x1024.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 25 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-25.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-40-764x1024.jpg "sonnybrownbraceforwar11 40 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-40.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 24](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-24.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 24 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-24.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 23](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-23.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 23 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-23.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 21](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-21.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 21 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-21.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 22](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-22.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 22 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-22.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-20-1024x1024.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 20 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-20.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-19.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 19 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-19.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-18.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-18.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 17](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-17.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 17 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-17.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-9.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-9.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-10.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-10.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-11.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-11.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-12-1024x1024.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-12.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-13.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-13.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-14.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-14.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 15](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-15.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-15.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 16](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-16.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-16.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-8.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-8.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-7.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-7.jpg)Sonny Brown Brace for War 11 Photo 7 - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-6.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-6.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-5.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-5.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-4.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo - 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-4.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo -3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-3.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo -3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-3.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo -2](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-2.jpg "Sonny Brown - Brace for War 11 Photo -2 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-2.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown -Brace for War 11 Photo -1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-1.jpg "Sonny Brown -Brace for War 11 Photo -1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbraceforwar11-1.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [BJJ & Grappling Photos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/bjj-photos/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** A random assortment of JIu-Jitsu & Grappling Photos of Sonny Brown. - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 1](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj1.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 1 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj1.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj3.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj3.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj4.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 4 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj4.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj5.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj5.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 6](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj6.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj6.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 7](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj7.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 7 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj7.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 8](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj8.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj8.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj9.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 9 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj9.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj10.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj10.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj11.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 11 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj11.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 12](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj12.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj12.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 13](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj13.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj13.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 14](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj14.jpg "sonnybrownbjj14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj14.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_with_rigan_machado.jpg "sonny_brown_with_rigan_machado › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonny_brown_with_rigan_machado.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj15.jpg "sonnybrownbjj15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj15.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj16.jpg "sonnybrownbjj16 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj16.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj17.jpg.jpg "sonnybrownbjj17.jpg › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj17.jpg.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj18.jpg.jpg "sonnybrownbjj18.jpg › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj18.jpg.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj18.jpggtaogi.jpg "sonnybrownbjj18.jpggtaogi › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj18.jpggtaogi.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull01.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull01 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull01.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull02.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull02 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull02.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull03.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull03 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull03.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull04.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull04 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull04.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull06.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebull06 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebull06.jpg) - [![Sonny Brown BJJ](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebullgrind.jpg "sonnybrownbjjtriplebullgrind › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjjtriplebullgrind.jpg) - [![U83kg ISKA No Gi Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowniskanswopen2014.jpg "sonnybrowniskanswopen2014 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowniskanswopen2014.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupogi.jpg "sonnybrownnswsummercupogi › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupogi.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupopengold.jpg "sonnybrownnswsummercupopengold › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupopengold.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupopenmastersgi.jpg "sonnybrownnswsummercupopenmastersgi › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownnswsummercupopenmastersgi.jpg) This was at the Langes MMA 2014 end of year grading where i received my brown belt in BJJ. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading15.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading15 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading15.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading14.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading14 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading14.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading13.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading13.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading12.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading12 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading12.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading10.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading10.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading09.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading09 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading09.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading08.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading08 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading08.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading07.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading07 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading07.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading061.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading06 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading061.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading051.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading05 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading051.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading041.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading04 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading041.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading03.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading03 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading03.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading02.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading02 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading02.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading01.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading01 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading01.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading06.jpg "sonnybrown_browbeltgrading06 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrown_browbeltgrading06.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/LangesMMA_2014_Grading.jpg "LangesMMA_2014_Grading › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/LangesMMA_2014_Grading.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Proud Warrior Productions 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/proud-warrior-productions-5/) **Published:** April 13, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** Photographs of [Sonny Brown](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/21661-sonny-brown") Vs [Bernardo Trekko](https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/8947-bernardo-magalhaes-trekko "https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/8947-bernardo-magalhaes-trekko") from Proud Warrior Production 5 in Sydney, Australia. - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/0.jpg "› Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/0.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-001.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-001 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-001.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-002.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-002 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-002.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-003.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-003 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-003.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-004.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-004 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-004.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-005.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-005 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-005.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-007.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-007 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-007.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-008.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-008 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-008.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-009.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-009 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-009.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-010.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-010 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-010.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-011.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-011 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-011.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-012.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-012 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-012.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-013.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-013 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-013.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-014.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-014 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-014.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-015.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-015 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-015.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-016.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-016 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-016.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-017.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-017 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-017.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-018.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-018 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-018.jpg) - [![](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-019.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-019 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-019.jpg) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Media - Sonny Brown Mixed Martial Arts](https://www.sonnybrown.net/media/) **Published:** December 6, 2014 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** **Photos & Videos of Sonny Brown Competing in Mixed Martial Arts, Jiu-Jitsu, Grappling & Wrestling Competition Including [Highlight Reels](https://youtu.be/kz7C_bZh7J4) of Memorable Performances.** ### Sonny Brown MMA & Grappling Highlight Reels ### Sonny Brown: MMA, Grappling and Training Photographs ## [BJJ & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/bjj-photos/) [![Sonny Brown BJJ, Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownbjj13-300x199.jpg "Sonny Brown - BJJ Photo 13 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/bjj-photos/) ## [Stu Foto Art Photos](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/stu-foto-art-photos/) [![Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart8-300x200.jpg "sonnybrownstufotoart8 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/stu-foto-art-photos/) ## [BRACE 11](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-11/) [![Sonny Brown Image - Brace Fight Poster 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownfightposters2-244x300.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - Fight Poster 3 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-11/) ## [BRACE 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-war-19/) [![Sonny Brown Vs Gaset](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/gaset-vs-brown-179x300.jpg "gaset-vs-brown › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-war-19/) ## [BRACE 20](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-20/) [![Brace for War 20 - Greg Atzori vs Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/BFW20-Atzori-V-Brown-202x300.jpg "BFW20 Atzori V Brown › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/brace-for-war-20/) ## [Cage Fighting Championships 19](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/cage-fighting-championships-19/) [![Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowncfc195-300x200.jpg "Sonny Brown - CFC 19 Photo - 5 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/cage-fighting-championships-19/) ## [Proud Warrior Productions 5](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/proud-warrior-productions-5/) ## [![sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006-255x300.jpg "sonnybrownmmaPWP5-006 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/proud-warrior-productions-5/) ## [RIZE 3](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-3/) [![Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize310-199x300.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 3 - 10 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-3/) ## [RIZE 4](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-4/) [![Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownrize418-300x198.jpg "Sonny Brown - Rize 4 - 18 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/rize-4/) ## [TUFFA 9](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/tuffa-9/) [![Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar1-300x199.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/tuffa-9/) ## [Miscellaneous](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/miscellaneous/) [![Sonny Brown Misc](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics6-300x200.jpg "Sonny Brown Image - 6 › Sonny Brown")](https://www.sonnybrown.net/photographs/miscellaneous/) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Subscribe To My Newsletter Sign up for my newsletter and receive occasional updates on my articles, podcasts and videos and receive a link to my guide which lists the top 5 habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! --- ### [Sonny Brown MMA, Jiu-Jitsu & Grappling Record](https://www.sonnybrown.net/record/) **Published:** February 11, 2013 **Author:** Sonny Brown **Content:** A brief record of the titles, championships, medals & achievements of [Sonny Brown](https://www.sonnybrown.net/about/ "About") in competitive Mixed Martial Arts, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Grappling & Wrestling. ## SONNY BROWN: MMA Record & Titles ### BRACE MMA Australian Lightweight Champion ![Sonny Brown MMA Brace Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/SonnyBrownPics151-300x298.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA › Sonny Brown") ### TUFFA MMA Australian Lightweight Champion ![Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrowntuffa9manowar1-300x199.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA TUFFA Champion › Sonny Brown") ### RIZE MMA Australian Lightweight Champion ![Sonny Brown MMA Rize Champion](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sonnybrownstufotoart17-300x176.jpg "Sonny Brown MMA Rize Champion › Sonny Brown") ## Submission Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu Record NSW State Championship - 16/07/2017 Brown Belt 85KG No Gi **- Gold Medal** Events BJJ Initiator Crown 2015 - 25/01/2015 Brown Belt 85KG Gi **- Gold Medal** NSW Spring Cup 2014 - 15/11/2014 - Purple Open Weight Master Gi **- Gold Medal** NSW Spring Cup 2014 - 15/11/2014 - Purple 85KG Weight Master Gi **- Gold Medal** NSW Spring Cup 2014 - 15/11/2014 - Purple Open Weight No Gi **- Bronze Medal** Pan Pacific Championship - 10-10-2014 - Purple 85KG Master No Gi **- Silver Medal** Pan Pacific Championship - 10-10-2014 - Purple Open Weight Master No Gi **- Bronze Medal** Pan Pacific Championship - 10-10-2014 - Purple 85KG Weight Master Gi **- Bronze Medal** Pan Pacific Championship - 10-10-2014 - Purple Open Weight Master Gi **- Bronze Medal** NSW BJJ State Championships - 28-06-2014 - Purple 79KG Master Gi **- Gold Medal** NSW BJJ State Championships - 28-06-2014 - Purple 79KG No Gi **- Bronze Medal** Tasmanian State Championships - 14/06/2014 - Purple Open Weight Gi **- Silver Medal** Tasmanian State Championships - 14/06/2014 - Purple Open Weight No Gi **- Silver Medal** Tasmanian State Championships - 14/06/2014 - Purple 85KG No Gi **- Gold Medal** Tasmanian State Championships - 14/06/2014 - Purple 85KG Gi \- **Gold Medal** Triple Bull BJJ Open South Coast 2014 - 10/05/2014 - Purple 79kg Master Gi **- Silver Medal** Triple Bull BJJ Open South Coast 2014 - 10/05/2014 - Purple 79kg Nogi **- Silver Medal** ISKA NSW Open - 30/03/2014 - u83kg No Gi Grappling **- Gold Medal** NSW Summer Cup 2014 - 22/03/2014 - Purple Open Weight Master Gi \- **Silver Medal** NSW Summer Cup 2014 - 22/03/2014 - Purple Open Weight Nogi **- Gold Medal** NSW Summer Cup 2014 - 22/03/2014 - Purple 79kg Nogi **- Gold Medal** Triple Bull BJJ Open - 9/2/14 - Purple 85.5KG Masters Gi **- Gold Medal** Events BJJ - Ryde Championship 2013- Purple 79kg Nogi \- **Silver Medal** Events BJJ - Sydney Cup Championship - 21/4/13 - Purple 85kg Nogi \- **Gold Medal** Events BJJ - NSW Gi Championships - Purple belt - 82.3 to 88.3kg \- **Bronze Medal** Will Machado Asia Pacific BJJ Championship 2010- Blue belt - 76-82kg \- **Gold Medal** Events BJJ - Sydney BJJ Challenge - 9/5/10 - Blue Belt - 67 to 73 KG \- **Gold Medal** Will Machado Asia Pacific BJJ Championship 2009 - Blue Belt - 70 to 80 Kgs \- **Bronze Medal** Events BJJ - Sydney BJJ Challenge - 02/08/09 - Blue Belt - 67 to 73kg \- **Gold Medal** Xtreme Grappling Tournaments - White Belt **- Gold Medal** Events BJJ - 28/09/08 - Sydney BJJ Challenge - White Belt - 67 to 73 Kg \- **Silver Medal** Machado NSW Championships 2008 - White Belt **- Gold Medal** ### View THE FULL MMA RECORD OF SONNY BROWN on [Sherdog.com](http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sonny-Brown-12132) [![sherdog](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/sherdog.jpg "sherdog › Sonny Brown")](http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sonny-Brown-12132) ![Morning Martial Arts Routine](https://www.sonnybrown.net/wp-content/uploads/morning_martial_small.png "morning_martial_small › Sonny Brown")## Start Your Morning With A Martial Arts Routine! Sign up for my newsletter and you will get a link to my guide, "The Morning Routine for Martial Artists" which details the top five habits to start a martial artist's day. SUBSCRIBE ## You have Successfully Subscribed! ---