The Purpose of Pragmatism, Persuasion, Jiu Jitsu & John Danaher with Robert Degle

I talk to Robert Degle who is a BJJ Black Belt from New York who trains under John Danaher and is also a philosophy major. We discuss how he started BJJ in the blue basement with Danaher, His start with philosophy and existentialism and how this lead to him pursuing an academic career with a focus on American pragmatism and Wittgenstein. We then explore how this can influence grappling training in regards to learning, competition, seeking the truth using logic, paying attention and the importance of persuasion.

Podcast Transcript – Episode 028

Coming soon.

The Good, Bad & Beautiful Truth in the Origins of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu With Robert Drysdale

I talk to Robert Drysdale. He is a storied competitor, ADCC Champion, Mundials Champion and has also coached many other legends of the sport. Also a History major, he has spent his recent time delving into the history of the sport for a documentary entitled Closed Guard: The Origins of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil that traces the journey of Japanese Judoka travelling to Brazil and the formation of the sport we know today involving tough guys, the circus, outlaws, gambling, marketing & promotion and of course plenty of prize fights along the way. The entire saga makes for a fascinating tale that leaves us with the question of where the good and bad of the story rests between the truth and the myth. After all was it Mitsuyo Maeda that made the legend of Carlos Gracie or Carlos Gracie that made the legend of Mitsuyo Maeda?

Top 20 Myths about Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Conde Koma)

Robert Drysdale Interview

Utility of Self-Directed Learning, Studying Tape and Optimising Lesson Structure With Lachlan Giles

I interview Lachlan Giles. We discuss how his persistence over years of competition culminated in things coming together for him on the day to take out Bronze in the ADCC 2019 Absolute division. We also examine how he optimally narrowed his focus and training for that specific competition, the importance of self-directed learning and the value obtained from breaking down competition footage. Also, how some scientific principles might apply to Jiu-Jitsu teaching methodology and lesson structure with details of one attempted study he undertook. Finally, he considers a possible direction of where he sees the no-gi grappling game evolving.

Podcast Transcript – Episode 022

Sonny Brown: Lachlan, thanks so much for being here today mate, how are you?

Lachlan Giles: Good. How are you? Thanks for having me on.

Sonny: My pleasure, mate. The honor is all mine, trust me. Obviously, everyone I think would be familiar with your recent success, bronze medal ADCC, going from strength to strength, really putting Australia on the map in terms of grappling. Obviously, we’ve had standouts before but it seems like a more cohesive unit coming out from Melbourne down there. My first question would be is, coming up in Australia around your time, the idea of getting to those levels that ADCC and competing on such international stage, would have seemed out of reach or at least, I would have thought that would have been the common perception that you got to go to Brazil or you got to go to America and that’s where you’re going to get your training. It couldn’t be done by local guys in Australia. When did you feel that it might actually be possible or that you could overcome that or was that the perception that you had at one point?

Lachlan: Yes, certainly. You have that dream of getting on the podium at a world level but to be honest, I didn’t– if you had ever asked me at any point, I probably would have said it’s probably unlikely. I’m doing my best to improve but the chance of that happening is pretty slim. I had been on overseas training trips before and I’d seen the level. As always, in some ways, it could be a positive experience but also a negative. Sometimes you’d roll with one of the best guys in the world, you could roll with a world champion when you go on one of those trips. Sometimes, you’d be like, I could get a little bit of my game going for a moment, it was never pretty. I’m trying to think on my head. I don’t think there was ever a time I rolled with a current top world champion and walked away like, “Yes, I beat them.” I’ve never walked away with that feeling but you might. You get to your position you’ve been working and maybe off-balance them or something, you could come away with some little glimpses that part of what you’re doing is heading in the right direction, but at the same time, usually, it’s quite disheartening because at those training camps as well, everyone takes it very seriously. They’ll be people, you could be a black belt. I’ve had times where I’m a black belt, I’m trying to prepare to compete at a world’s, which is in two weeks time and I’ll roll with a brown belt. I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know if I would win in that match.” We’d have a roll and I come away for that kind of “Jeez, that was really tough.” In some ways, it’s quite disheartening to just see the amount of people with the same goal as you who are putting in, what I’d say is a similar amount of effort. When you think of it like that, it is actually quite difficult. I feel like I’m part of it. I’d say actually, a good part of my success in ADCC was just on the day, I had my day and that’s what everyone hopes that– You want to be the best in the division where even on your worst day, you still win, but failing that, then you just want to have your day. [laughs] If you’re not at that level, then you want to just have your day. I think at ADCC, I definitely, probably exceeded even my dreams of how well I could perform in a particular tournament. Yes, it’s a mix. I do think along the way seeing people do well internationally, I think Keith was probably the first. I was a brown belt, he was a purple belt and he won the world purple belt. I was like, “Jeez, that’s–” Because I would train with Keith. I just started training with him around that time and I was like, “Jeez, that’s a pretty–” I knew he was tough from the training with him and I was brown and he was purple and he was beating me, but I felt like I was nipping at his heels a little bit, but he would stay. But I was like, Okay he’s doing well and that’s not too big of an ask for me to do well at the brown belt level and then that, obviously, his success continued. Anyway, we had other people like my wife, Liv, she won blue belt worlds so that gave me, “Okay, it’s doable if we stick to the right strategy.” Then, obviously, Craig in 2017, having his result. I think though I wasn’t always looking at world championship level competition. At first, it was like, “Can I do well in Australia?” Or even can I do well in a smaller– the Victorian championships or something? Once you achieve your goal, you tend to look a bit further, [laughs] you set some new goal– you realign the goalposts and try to make a new goal. I never really with confidence said like, “Yes, I’m now at a level where I’m going to be a world champion”, which I’ve seen all but yes.

Sonny: You say, you had a good day at ADCC, obviously, that’s correct, it would have been a good day. You have had a few good days in recent memory as well, that’s probably not the only one. You’ve had a couple of good days, right?

Lachlan: Over the last five years, I’d had some wins over some people who had done– My first probably big win was against, I bet, Rani Yahya. No, I’m sure it was Edwin Najmi, Edwin Najmi was probably my first big win. That was in Australia, at BOA Super-8. Then that same year, he came second at worlds, that next worlds,that came around, I was like “Okay.” That’s the thing, it can be a one-off thing compared to a– to win the worlds, you got to be consistently winning those matches, which I felt like I fumbled my way through that match and it just got through. There’s a few of them along the way. Then in 2019, I felt like I had a very, very– in the lead up to ADCC, I think I hadn’t lost yet that year. I hadn’t been competing every weekend or anything, I’d pick and choose my tournament that I was going in but I was feeling very confident in my style and what I wanted to do. There’s definitely been a momentum and I was probably the most confident I’d felt about a tournament at an international stage before.

Sonny: Yes, that’s a good one to be feeling confident about. That’s for sure.

Lachlan: Yes, I certainly. As I said, confident but not to a silly degree. I think I tried to be realistic. I didn’t think, yes, I’m going to win ADCC, but I thought I had a chance, give everything– [crosstalk]

Sonny: Best effort.

Lachlan: Yes.

Sonny: That makes sense. As you’re building on those victories as you said, from Victorian, just growing and growing setting the incremental goals, what did you think was the change that you needed to make or that you did make that enabled you to go to those next levels that other people weren’t at that stage, really, really seeing through with that much consistency?

Lachlan: You mean for 2019 compared to before that or–

Sonny: Yes.

Lachlan: Probably my biggest strength is my consistency. I’ve been training for 17 years now, maybe even longer. I probably don’t care that correctly. In the last 10 years, you could probably count on your hand the amount of times I’ve had more than a week off. It’s usually like every day of the week, showing up training. I probably don’t train more than a lot of the top athletes you hear of training like four or five hours a day. I definitely don’t even do half of that usually but I am there every day and I’m thinking and trying to work through that. I think that was a big thing. At some point, I made the decision to focus on ADCC, that was probably even before the 2017 ADCC. I said, this is what I want to try to do well at, it’s pretty hard to try to go well at ADCC and IBJJF No-Gi. They’re almost separate the way you got to train for them and the skill sets you got to develop, I said, I’m going to focus on the ADCC thing. I put all my effort into that. Then there was probably two years of continual growth and that 2019 was probably where it really started to show. I’ve narrowed my focus. I think narrowing my focus helped a lot.

Sonny: I like the sound of that, especially I remember you saying for your ADCC prep, you really just focused on leg locks and wrestling and I made sure to send that quote to all the guys I coach wrestling to be like, see guys. Take downs matter.

Lachlan: To be honest, I do love training for ADCC because you have to be good everywhere. I do feel like in my division and IBJJF, you can almost forget about the stand-up thing. Like you can just pull guard and you just imagine that wrestling doesn’t exist. Whereas in ADCC you can’t ignore it. You have to develop that skill-set. Because if it goes to overtime, you don’t know what you’re going to lose. It forces you to do that and I enjoy the training. You feel like you’re a bit more of a complete athlete, you have to know how to pass, how to play guard, how to wrestle, you have to know leg locks, back takes, finishes, you include everything. That’s one of the reasons I like it.

Sonny: That’s nice, beautiful. Nothing wrong with being a complete- have a complete game in jiu-jitsu. There’s nothing wrong with that. When you’re building up and focusing, you’re narrowing your focus from there. I think before you mentioned that you saw the value in type study and that doing type analysis was a key moment for you when you started to do that. I’m a big fan of that myself obviously. Just wanted to get inside your thought process of what role that played and how you went about it.

Lachlan: It’s been huge. I think I made a few posts on Instagram or Facebook recently about things that have influenced my development along the time. I remember seeing Dan Lucot posted, he had this Roger Gracie breakdown that he had online on YouTube, where he talked through the techniques and then he’d show a clip of Roger using it, it showed that he got the inspiration for teaching that technique by watching Roger and breaking down what he was doing. He went through most of the Roger’s game plan. He called himself Trump Dan, Dan Lucot. Actually another guy I was working with at the time of training with Dan Shaw, he was someone who was watching international competition. At the time I was just maybe watch the occasional MMA fight, but most of my jiu-jitsu, it was just based off whatever I’d see in the gym or what I’d seen on UFC or something. I’d try to just do that move. I think I spent a long time after watching Kazushi Sakuraba giving my back to try to get more people because it was my favorite MMA fighter. Once I caught onto the fact that you could watch international tape and see all these moves that I wasn’t being exposed to at all at home, that was huge for me because then I was like, I could go look at what they’re doing and then I’d try it in the gym and obviously first you suck at it, but also when you suck at it, but no one knows what you were even doing, then it can still work and that can build confidence really well. I was finding a lot of things that wouldn’t take much practice before I could start hitting it a lot and against my training partners. Then you’re kind of ahead of– there’s an arms race where they start trying to develop counters, but you’re ahead of the arms race because you were watching the tape and seeing how the top guys are countering it. I followed that a lot and that’s when I started playing, what I’d say is a more international style, like the Marcella Garcia style and the Mendez brothers and countless other influences depending what technique I was working. That was a huge factor in my development. Even now, I’m trying to work my wrestling. I’m studying a lot of tape of elite wrestling at the moment in my free time

Sonny: Plenty of free time at the moment. I’m a big fan of breakdowns, obviously myself and for me, it was like all the other sports like NFL, you know that they go through tape after a game, just break it down, basketball, soccer, they all do it, but I have had some people suggest to me that jiu-jitsu, you got to feel it. You can’t see what they’re doing. You have to actually learn from, go to someone and feel what they’re doing and that’s the only way to actually learn a type value, studying types of limited use. What would you say to something like that?

Lachlan: It’s funny because if you look at any of those sports, soccer, football, rugby, all that, I feel like the technical portion is far less relevant than it is in as– I feel like athleticism is a much bigger factor in those sports than it is in jiu-jitsu or in grappling. You’re actually going to get more out of type analysis in a grappling sense than you would in a- like I can’t even pick– I used to play Australian rules football and I’m trying to picture how someone showing me a video of watching Australian rules football would really help me that much, that you can get an idea of like, Oh, they turn left or right but it’s like, they shrug a tackle like this, but compared to the technical nuance you can pick up from studying a Jujitsu type, it’s just like nothing. If they’re finding it’s working, if they’re finding it valuable enough for those sports then surely it should be valuable for jiu-jitsu. I agree that sometimes you don’t need to feel it, but sometimes you won’t see what’s going– you won’t be able to visualize or get a true sense of what that move feels like unless you have that person do it to you but that’s not to say you can’t. Sometimes if you’ve got a very keen eye for detail, you can still pick up those things. Maybe you won’t maybe you get the general idea of the movement and then that helps you pick up when you- let’s say I’m studying Leandra Lo and I’m trying to copy every move he does. I just like, I can’t get his- I can’t do his kneecap and then you get a chance to roll with him and he does it to you and you’re like, Oh. You go like, “I could really feel this.” You try to do the things that people did to you when you tried his game, you try to do them on him just to frustrate him and you’re like, “It didn’t work.” Because you can actually have enough of a reference point to make the adaptation to learn his game better. Whereas if you never played his game and then he did it, you’d just be like, “He just beat me. I don’t know why.” I think it’s really important in grappling, to really pay attention to why things are or are not working. What’s the key detail that you are missing or that happens so that you go for your sweep and it doesn’t work, what grip are they doing that annoys you that no one else is doing that when you do sweep them. Because once you recognize that, you can start to strategize around it.

Sonny: That makes sense. It’s like, obviously it would be better if you could feel the moves that all the top guys are doing and that you want to study, but realistically, you’re going to be able to get value from that type study no matter what, right?

Lachlan: Yes. For sure. I think it’s not just- when we say types there, you’re not just watching people roll and trying to see who wins. It’s not an entertainment thing. You’re trying to put yourself in their shoes and go, what would I do here. If I was in that position, how would I be reacting? Why are they taking that grip because I would do something different then you can start? Once you realize what’s different to what you would normally do, that’s something you can then start trying to implement.

Sonny: You mentioned then that the important of troubleshooting, and I would imagine that when you’re coaching and trying to put that mindset onto the people you’re coaching, the importance of being able to individually troubleshoot whatever they’re having problems with. Is that something that you think you can teach people to be able to do?

Lachlan: I’m trying– to be honest, I’m trying to get better at making people self-directed learners which is not an easy– teaching people how to learn as opposed to teaching them the moves is something I’ve more recently started trying to put a bit more focus on. I think you can do that. It’s always hard with class times, but I have occasionally not recently because of corona, but pre corona, we’d sometimes finish a round or specific training round and then we’ll be, “Okay, now you explain to your partner something they were doing that was frustrating to you and then they do the same for you.” Just to get them to have a little discussion about what was frustrating and potentially how they could solve that problem as well. Which I think that’s a contrived way to get people to do it but I think some people naturally do it and they’re usually the ones that improve pretty quick. You see people, they go to open mat and they roll and then you see them sitting there workshopping things and they’re usually the people that you know are going to improve quite fast.

Sonny: That makes sense, people taking on their own responsibility for their learning, being able to self direct it. I think I’ve heard you mention that you’ll even have classes where people will just be given the freedom to work on whatever it is they want to work on. Not so much in an open mat fashion but you’ll help them out just whatever they want to work on. Is that correct?

Lachlan: Yes, that’s true. Self-directed learning is something that’s come up in the research on how fast people learn quite a bit. If you let people self direct it, they’re going to pick up things quicker as long as they’re following the right path, I guess. With our prior sessions and with our advanced sessions. Our prior sessions are all, you work on whatever you want. I barely give any set thing like, okay, we’re working from a double leg or single leg or whatever or from knee through pass. I’d almost always be– whatever you want to start from, it’s your five minutes, you go from there, that’s what you’re working on and then your partner gets five minutes starting from their position. That does force people to go home and come into the class with a plan or at least if they want to get more out of the class, they’re going to come in like, okay, I’m working on this, this and this. They get a lot of reps in on that area. That’s one thing we do. In our advanced classes, I will teach a technique in the advanced class but when it’s time to drill, if you’ve got something that you want to work on, then feel free to do that. I don’t really make them do the technique that I’m teaching.

Sonny: Okay, that’s interesting. You show a technique if people maybe want inspiration or an idea but if they want to do their own drilling, they’re free– you’re not going to over there and whack them over the head with a kendo stick and tell them to get back on track. [chuckles] With your drilling, is there anything that you do different or that makes what you’re doing unique? Obviously your friend Kit Dale was probably at least vocally saying that he wasn’t drilling or something along those lines but what is it that you can do to improve on people’s drilling that you think?

Lachlan: Yes. It depends on the level the person has. It’s very dependent on how confident you are and the technique you’re doing. If it’s a new movement– if you don’t feel confident with your movement, then I think you just want to get some reps in the movement. I think, at a certain point, the timing and the context for when to use the move become more of a factor and your success than the actual ability to execute the move when you need to more than the actual technical steps. That’s where I feel like it has to shift from drills to specific training. Let’s say you want to drill finishing your arm bar like , okay, you got a static opponent and you’re just extending their arm 50 times. At a certain point, okay, you know how to extend their arm and finish an arm but that’s going to have diminishing returns quite quickly but then having someone trying to fight out of the armbar at various stages will give you a much better feel for the context of as to when you should push the arm which way and so on. I feel like there’s some in-between level of that, which is, I like the way wrestlers drill and I found I can do it well in wrestling but I can’t do it well in jiu-jitsu. I don’t know why. I just haven’t found a way to be able to do this. You need a good drilling partner, I think, but in wrestling, you shoot and they’ll defend and you transition and you keep– your opponent will make you go through three or four transitions. They’re going to let you take them down. They’re not trying to completely stop you but they’ll stop some of your attacks so that you have to work the timing and the context of when you would change between your moves and I found that really useful for wrestling. I find people are less good on the ground at giving correct feedback for that but I think you could do the same thing.

Sonny: Yes, definitely. That was actually something I was talking to Brian Ebersole about. He was saying he would do for his, his making sure that defending a drill is making sure that it’s five, six different ways to defend and then the person’s gets all those different looks. I think that’s definitely a big portion.

Lachlan: I think an issue on the ground might be that there’s a lot of static positions which you don’t really have in wrestling or at least not as much. In wrestling, it’s usually all dynamic. You come in and you try to finish. There’s very little pause in between whereas if you were to say like, “I’m going to drill like that, you’re on top and I’m on bottom and I’m going to try and sweep you.” If you block one sweep, my answer might be to come back to a static position and just settle back to a position that I can just hold for a bit and reset my attacks but that doesn’t make for very good flow drill. You’ve blocked my attack and I come back whereas, in wrestling, it would be like, you just keep driving until eventually you find something. I’m still playing around with ways to use that best in grappling jiu-jitsu format.

Sonny: Yes. I understand. I know you are aware of Preet Mickelson and his work. I actually checked him out on some recommendation, I think [crosstalk] . The conversation I had with him was a lot about switching how we try and present in jiu-jitsuto a sport rather than an art as how it’s been taught previously and that wrestling has had that benefit of just being around for a lot longer. I wonder if that’s the thing that you’re discussing now about just trying to figure out the way to make that transition and what are some of those things then from sports science that you are looking to bring in?

Lachlan: Yes. That’s a good question. [laughs] I think a lot of it has to do with taking a step back and defining your goals and what you’re wanting to achieve. That’s what I did with ADCC. I felt that made a huge difference. Just stepping back and going like, what do I want to do? I want to win ADCC. What does it take? What does someone who wins ADCC do? What’s their skill set? Work on that. Okay, like wrestling, leg locks. At least for me. You can make it very specific to yourself. For me, what would it take to take the 2017 Lachlan Giles and then get into 2019 and try to win ADCC? What changes are required? Let’s just put all our effort on that. Don’t waste your time doing other things. That’s how I approached it and that made a big difference. I think there’s that. I think from my own training, I feel like I apply a lot of things pretty well. What I find is hard as a coach to teach to a group a sport that is often best practice on an individual level. As in I feel self-directed learning and what techniques you should be working on and whether you need to be doing more rolling or drilling and so on is very dependent on the person and then everyone comes together in one class. How do you make each individual person get the most out of the class when they’re all requiring different things at that time? That’s actually probably my biggest question at the moment, is how to maximize the use of class time for students. I think it’s easier that one of the best things you could do is divide it by experience because then that takes care of the how much time should you spend drilling, specific training enrollment because I think that the more experience you get, the more time doing those less things and the earlier on the more time spent drilling. It’s easier for the early on, you can do a fundamentals class and teach the foundation or positions. Everyone’s going to get something out of that by going to these classes. Whereas, for the advanced people, they need probably their specific game. Separating classes based on experience is, I think, is a big thing. I’m trying to implement some of the learning principles like space repetition. I wrote out a syllabus and whatever we cover, we’ll teach it and teach it in detail and then we just refresh it again just for a week. We might spend a week on it and then we’ll do a revision week eight weeks later which covers everything we did in the last eight weeks just in one week just to bring that back in the brain. It’s things like that I’m trying to implement. I wouldn’t say I got it perfect yet but it’s something I’m working on. I don’t know what else to do.

Sonny: That’s all right. Yes, space repetition, that was a big thing in sports. It’s good that you’re trying to implement that into jiu-jitsu. I like the way you’ve just said then of condensing the eight weeks and put it down into the week as a refresher. That’s a good, rough way for people to go in. As for what else you can do, I remember you doing a Brazilian Jujitsu learning study in your own gym based on, I think, it was rites of completion or successful trials of techniques. Are you able to talk about that? How that went?

Lachlan: Yes, I’ll get into that. I didn’t get enough useful data out of that. I think I’ve got a better way to measure it now which I’ll try to look at next time. I wanted to make a study to see whether working one thing, focusing on one topic for a few lessons in a row and then changing to another topic for a few lessons in a row and then changing to another topic, whether that would be a better way to learn than a more random– I do one one day, another one the next day. Within the session. Within the one session, you’re working the three different techniques and all positions. We took data at the start. The group was in the middle and you line up. Whoever you go against, you either win or you lose. You start from your position and you win or you lose. Then you’d come back and you’d write that on a spreadsheet, win or loss.

Sonny: Or learn.

Lachlan: Or learn, yes. We got that data from the start, from the first week to the last week of it. Did people learn better from working everything at once or blocked? It’s somewhat of a blocked versus random training study to a certain degree but we didn’t get enough. One thing I found was tough was with a structure like that, with the random training was you might have three positions you’re working but maybe even in a 15-minute period, you might only get six gos overall. You’re only getting two attempts at the thing that you do. I feel like something full learning is you want to understand what is going wrong and give yourself a chance to try to correct it. I don’t know if this is being shown in sports but I feel like that’s a process you want to go through. If you shoot a basketball, you want to know that it did or didn’t go in the hoop then you make your adjustment based on that and shoot it again. Okay, that was better so now you get some reinforcement for that behavior. Maybe you don’t have to do that a hundred times but you at least want to be able to do that, I think. Getting just two attempts at your technique you’re trying in the whole session of each one might not be enough to actually– At least it’s a strong improvement. I think the research would support a random style of training like mixing things up but I think sometimes when it’s so complex and you’re getting so few things, I just don’t know how well that applies to jiu-jitsu. If you can get someone to shoot a basketball 50 times in a row then mixing it up and making them have to focus on different aspects of it, it probably helps more. I don’t know in jiu-jitsu. That’s what I wanted to find out. One of the issues was the era in the measurements from who you are rolling with had too big of a factor on the outcome. If you come out from the front of the line and then you got a black belt, you could have improved massively at your technique but you’re going to lose. It ends with being a lot of variability and you’d need huge amount of data. I had to meet 50 people that did study but we would have needed, I think, 300, we would have needed to actually get to look for some sort of effect that I was after. What I was thinking instead was to take a more specific thing and such as guard retention or something and measure the time– if you get people to write down the time that they were playing guard or how many times they got– You did a 10-minute period, you have 10 minutes, you’re on your back. If you get passed then it doesn’t matter if the person goes to the end of the line but measure the amount of times you got passed in a 10-minute period or something. That might be a little bit better but I’ll look into that again further. I want to get into some more research side of things but, obviously, after ADCC, I’ve been travelling and doing a lot of seminars and so on.

Sonny: Living the life.

Lachlan: Yes. Not anymore.

Sonny: Yes, no one is but it’s been good. I think there are all those, I guess, unique challenges in Brazilian jiu-jitsuof grappling that and maybe those other sports don’t have. Spaced repetition, we talked about. Any other elements that you’ve heard about that you might want to look into or give some pointers to people to maybe start their own research on?

Lachlan: In my opinion, one of the biggest things in grappling is that you need to identify what the problem is. I’m going to use a basketball analogy again but this is how I see it. Imagine you shoot a basketball. Maybe you’re blindfolded or you can see the ring, you shoot but then as you shoot, they cover your eyes and you don’t even know– Someone might tell you, they say it missed. That you missed the basketball shot but they don’t tell you whether it was too shallow, too deep, too much to the left or to the right. It would be so hard to improve your basketball shot without knowing what you needed. Essentially, knowing what you need to do to get better. Like, I need to shoot it with a bit more force or less force or a little to the left, to the right. Once you know that, you can be more accurate with your shots but I think in something as complex as grappling, most of the time, you go for a move, it doesn’t work and you don’t know what you could have done to actually fix it. I think that’s an essential part of grappling that is different to a lot of the sports that get researched. In just where in the other sport I can think of, it would be pretty easy to tell them in a case of an error, what they needed to do to fix it. In jiu-jitsu, it’s actually really difficult.

Sonny: Right. I hear you. Just being able to increase that level of feedbacking between rolling partners. Let’s say, if someone tells you it was a crank not a choke, then stop them and find out why. Is that about right?

Lachlan: It’s may be not based on sports science but it’s just my feelings towards what I think is a huge factor in improving.

Sonny: That makes sense. I think a lot of the stuff that we’ve talked about, maybe it’s geared towards maximizing the time spent training for a competition and effectiveness. How do you then balance that out for just the hobbyist people coming into your gym, keeping it fun. Would they have been keen to fill out surveys on how their success rates and whatnot? How do you work that divide between the competition team and just your people wanting to get fit and have a bit of fun?

Lachlan: That’s a tough one. People were quite interested in the study so they actually– A good amount of people joined up for that study. I heard that something else which failed was, I tried to get everyone to fill out a spreadsheet just with their goals and like, okay what are you aiming for? This was actually for our pro team. but like, what are your goals and what do you need to improve to get there? That wasn’t followed and people tended to be less active in that which is fine. Some people are doing that themselves at least in their own head but a lot of people aren’t and just going through the process is a very beneficial thing to do. Even just to write it down and go, okay, this is where I want to go, this is what I got to do. That means that on your day when you come into the gym tired, you’ve committed to working on the skill set you need because for example, wrestling’s the perfect example for this because we’ve got so many people that say they want to do ADCC and then they come in and they’re tired and sore. What’s the one thing they won’t work? Wrestling because it’s hard. I’ll be the same unless I– When I’ve got ADCC coming up, I can be like, okay, it’s coming up, I need to do this. I’ll force myself to do it but I definitely rather just pull guard and do the more lazy approach, but that’s not what you need. That’s not what I need to achieve my goal. Having it written down and going, okay, well, today, I’m doing my single-leg take-down defense, then that’s what I’m going to do. It makes a big difference.

Sonny: That’s just definitely the power of writing down your goals for sure. I wonder did you write down your ADCC goal? Was that written down in a notebook somewhere that you’d go back and look at?

Lachlan: I probably wouldn’t have a physical– It was– Yes. [crosstalk] Did I write– Maybe. I’m trying to think. It would have been– We were writing down a weekly plan and trying to focus that. It can be hard to say, for the next eight weeks, I’m going to work this position or whatever or next four weeks because sometimes you feel like you didn’t get enough of it. Like you need to do more of it by the end of that time or you might feel like after two weeks of doing it, that you’re actually feeling quite comfortable and there’s something else that’s got more importance, but at least– It’s better to write it down and then change it if need be, than not do anything at all.

Sonny: Then for your competition side, you had that consistency and that ability to stay in that competitive space for a long time until you got success. What would your advice be for the novice who just wants to just pick up a sport and stay in the sport for a long time? Let’s say they get their blue belt and maybe they’re thinking about, “I’ve done enough,” for some reason, and they don’t want to come back. What would your advice be to someone like that to help keep them actually in the sport?

Lachlan: They have to work out what they’re doing it for. If their goal was to get a blue belt and quit, then I don’t know if there’s anything I could say that would change that.

Sonny: Goal achieved. Done.

Lachlan: Yes. If your goal is to have something to keep you fit and keep your mind engaged and something you– The main thing should be you enjoy it. If you don’t enjoy it, if you’re going there, you don’t enjoy it, but you want to get your blue belt then don’t even bother getting your– I suppose it’s probably still good. It’s still probably good to get your– If you don’t enjoy it, I still think it’s a useful thing to practice for the self-defense point of view, I suppose for a certain point in time maybe to a blue belt then quit but if you enjoy– Find a way to enjoy it, find good training partners that you enjoy rolling with or maybe who make you think and do that. Roll at a pace where you’re not going to get injured.

Sonny: In terms of different training partners who will make you think and probably change your game, going back to the competition when you’re competing in Open Weight and you’re going against all these different competitive styles, especially from people in your own weight division to the giants in Open Weight, how are your setups changing and your attacks changing? Did you just have the same game or did you say, okay, once I get past x kilograms, then I’m switching things up.

Lachlan: Yes, I had two main areas I was trying to set my leg-locks up from and one was that De La Riva and K-Guard and the other was from reverse De La Riva, which has a bit of a closer range. In my weight division, for whatever reason, just stylistically I thought it would be better against my opponent, which was Lucas Lepri. I thought, the reverse De La Riva thing might catch him off guard. I just had a different entry that I thought he might not have seen, but that was my undoing. But in the Open Weight, I feel I want to keep a bit more distance so De la Riva– Something that just keeps both feet in front of my opponent and most of the time is what I wanted to work with. Just a slight more distance-based guard and that seemed to work well. I was already practicing that style the whole training camp, anyway. I wasn’t particularly trying to get ready for big people. That just happened, but it was probably good that my style was strongly influenced by the Miyao brothers who were quite small. I figured whatever they’re doing probably works. Most of the people they roll are probably bigger than them. Whatever they’re doing works, scales up.

Sonny: That’s fair enough. You want to get that skill set that will go across weights. With the big guys, probably the biggest in one way or another would be Gordon Ryan. What’s happening with him at the moment? At the moment, obviously, nothing but there was that talk of the match and he was putting that stuff out there. What’s happening with that? Do you think that’ll ever come to fruition?

Lachlan: I don’t think he ever really wanted to do that match. At least not for that price. He put an offer of 500,000 dollars on a legal battle compared to my 5,000 which of course I was happy to do, but then I said yes and then he started putting all these stipulations in about I have to fight x and y with three other people within a year or something which wouldn’t have happened with corona probably anyway so there you go. I wouldn’t have got my 500,000. You know Gordon, he’ll say anything.

Sonny: Just a bitter blaster.

Lachlan: Since everyone’s been locked inside, he certainly unleashed– He’s furious [crosstalk]

Sonny: A bit of cabin fever fear.

Lachlan: Yes.

Sonny: When things finally, we get back out on the mats, we get going what do you think will be the next evolution in No-Gi grappling that people should be maybe looking forward to and thinking ahead? Where do you think the game is going to go?

Lachlan: I think that very much depends on the rule set. In ADCC, the wrestling is going to be a huge determining factor in a lot of matches. If you’re preparing for ADCC and you’re not wrestling then I don’t know what you’re doing. That’s going to be a huge factor. Everything else will be there. The sport’s evolving, so we’ll get sharper with our leg-locks, sharper with our passing guard, front headlock. It’s hard to say what– If I knew where the evolution was going to occur, what’s a new tactic or something, then I would be doing that already. I see some patterns. I see certain people favoring some positions now. We’re talking about Gordon. I know Gordon’s playing a very seated guard, almost trying to wrestle up from a seated guard, which works for him. I can see that being valuable. That used to be more my style. I used to play a lot more forward pressure. It’s a much more risky style. Your chance of being front headlocked Kamurad or under-hooked, it’s higher risk, higher reward. I personally see what the Miayos are doing and the K-Guard has been the other reaction which is to play more off your back and try to get into leg entanglements. That’s the avenue that my direction is going and I see more and more of that in No-Gi because it’s hard to play standard De La Riva and those Gi-based guards but the K-guard still lets you work in on those positions. That’s my guard evolution, is working to there for passing, I don’t know, body lock, but that’s not exactly new. Body lock is certainly common No-Gi. Everyone’s is getting better at back takes, I think they’re realizing that to score points if you’ve got wrestling, you also need to be able to take the back because your opponent’s probably going to turtle and try to escape. You talked to Preet, I do think a better defensive back game will surface to a degree. It’s a hard one for me because I have success but sometimes you go against someone like a Craig or something and I really don’t feel like turning my back at all is a good idea. Some of those people who are very good at taking the back, I just feel like turning your back and trying to fight off the back can be a landmine.

Sonny: You’re giving them what they want.

Lachlan: Exactly.

Sonny: They want you to stay pinned.

Lachlan: At the moment, my thoughts are only when it’s a choice between me losing points and turning my back and risking, I’ll turn my back but otherwise, I’m not going to try to fight a defensive back battle proactively. In terms of what the next evolution is wrestling and–

Sonny: Wrestling?

Lachlan: Yes, potentially some better ways of setting up submissions from standing. That’s not something I’m particularly looking into, but that could be someone who’s–

Sonny: Just chaining that wrestling into submissions?

Lachlan: Yes. I think now that you’ve a rule set like ADCC where people are going to be willing to engage the stand-up battle, you then might see some opportunities to set up submissions from the standing position, which you wouldn’t have seen in IBJJF because people just pull guard so now there’s more opportunity for something like that.

Sonny: I like it. That’s going to give me something to go think about and work on more standing submissions. That’s going to be a good little way to end that, I think, just a little of advice for people to go off and research themselves. I really appreciate the time you’ve given me today.

Lachlan: No, I think you had some really good questions.

Sonny: Oh, thanks. I appreciate that feedback. We’re talking about important feedback.

Lachlan: Yes, that’s right.

Sonny: [chuckles] Thank you very much. Of course, you also did mention that the body lock could be a big thing and you’ve got the body lock instruction if you want to get it.

Lachlan: Just a [crosstalk]

Sonny: That’s it. What are the other ones that people can get and how should they get in contact with you if they want to?

Lachlan: Through BJJ Fanatics, I have instructionals on half guard, front headlock series, about one and a half guard passing. I’ve got the body lock pass and I’ve got the leg lock anthology as well. There’s those five and then on grapplers guide, I’ve got something on butterfly guard and on the equivalent to guard retention but on top, which is sweetp prevention. When you get stuck in all different types of guards, how do you actually maintain your base and get back to neutral position without getting swept or submitted. It’s a topic I thought hadn’t really been covered. If you go on the BJJ Fanatics, you could use my code, lachlan10 that says 10% and if you go to grapplers guide that’s got a whole bunch of, not just me, there’s a whole bunch of other experts that have on different topics and I want you to use a Lachlan, that say a 30%.

Sonny: Nice, beautiful. I’ll put that in the links and show notes and people can follow through there and I think that’ll be offered. For now, you’ve got to go to class. You got a zoom class so–

Lachlan: Yes, a zoom class coming up.

Sonny: I’ll let you go get prepped up and everything for that. Thanks so much for the time again, and have a great evening.

Lachlan: You too, cheers.

Sonny: Thanks, Lachlan.

The Mirroring Principle and Controlled Chaos for Learning with Wim Deputter

I talk to Wim Deputter who is Belgium based Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. We discuss how Jiu-Jitsu is a principle that means a Boxer could be doing Jiu-Jitsu, but you could be a BJJ player and not be doing Jiu-Jitsu. How Wims “Mirroring Principle” is an algorithm and fundamental movement rule that guides BJJ, MMA, Striking and self-defence situations. How constraints placed on any art will determine what that art can become and how constraining beginners to focus on control and then to allow controlled chaos can be the best way for them to develop.

Wim is a life long martial artist also fighting MMA where he amassed a very respectable record of 18 and 4. He has done multiple seminars for the BJJ globetrotters organisation and has four instructionals out with BJJ fanatics that cover his mirroring principle.

The Mythology & Meaning of Teaching Martial Arts with Daniele Bolelli

I talk to Daniele Bolelli who is a writer, martial artist and a university professor. He is the host of multiple podcasts including the Drunken Daoist podcast and the History on Fire podcast. He has also authored many books such as “On the Warrior’s Path: Philosophy, Fighting, and Martial Arts Mythology” and “Not Afraid: On Fear, Heartbreak, Raising a Baby Girl, and Cage Fighting”.

Here we discuss how martial arts is the perfect medium for learning the limits of your capability and reaching your potential despite a few broken arms and busted knees, why the timid sport of soccer has the most violent fanbase of all and why a jack of all trades may be the master of none, but can oftentimes be better than only a master of one.

Episode 5 – Podcast Transcript

Sonny: Daniele, great to have you here. It’s a pleasure. I’ve been a fan of your work for a long time, especially On the Warrior’s Path. I just thought I’d get into just initially about what attracted you to start training martial arts back in the beginning? What was it that drew you to it?

Danielle: I think it’s was the local fad, right? We watched too many Star Wars movie. We watched too many Bruce Lee movies. There’s that dream which all those things are built on. Like the mythology of it is a young lost guy who goes to the wise master who show him the way of the force. And it’s sad you are not a young lost guy anymore, now you’re a Jedi master. It’s all we love, right? What it is it’s a dream of empowerment. It’s like the whole martial art movie story and martial arts in general. It’s the story of you’re weak, you are vulnerable, and you don’t want to be any of those things, and there’s a process to that. There’s a lot of the Joseph Campbell, the Hero’s Journey type of vibe. You’re going to go on with this quest that’s going to transform who you are, and he’s going to reform you into something that you like a whole lot better. I think why we all do it. [laughs]

Sonny: I think I’ve had the same thing. I’ve often wondered would I have experienced a broken arm in a mixed martial arts fight if it wasn’t for the Ninja Turtles? [laughs]

Danielle: Right. Exactly. Or probably not.

Sonny: Is that idea that then drawn us to it? Is that just a romanticized fictional idea that western people have of eastern martial arts that is just made from media companies?

Danielle: It is and it isn’t. it’s like anything else. Anytime when people are, “Oh, it’s just romanticized.” I mean, to some degree of course. But it’s also usually based on a seed of truth. You take something that’s real. The way that martial arts do transform people, the empowerment that is very real. You do take the fact that some people in the martial arts who are inevitably have been more than just the thugs and people who can throw a good punch, but have also had something interesting to say about life, and you just zero in on that part that extra interesting and you make it the stereotype. Most stereotypes are not born out of completely making stuff up out of thin air.

You take seed of truth, and you just blow it up to where the image of the martial art teacher. Now, 95% of martial art teacher you’re ever going to run into are not like that at all. But you zero in on the part that you like, that you dig, that you wish it to be, and then that’s what the movies will focus, on to the point where it looks like that’s what it is in all occasions. Of course, it’s not in all occasion, but that doesn’t mean it’s not that way in any occasion.

Sonny: Then to actually get that experience out of it, this transformational turning, making the weak strong, it’s a noble idea that draws us to it. But then we go into the martial arts school, and generally the first thing we might encounter is a savage beating at the hands of some person who is a lot bigger than us, sweating all over us. How can we actually get that through that kind of training?

Danielle: In fact, that’s one of the sayings that that toughest person in any martial art room is usually the white male who signed up the latest because he’s going to sack [unintelligible 00:04:59] you know. Everybody in the room is better than they are. To keep showing up day after day when they know that they’re going to get their ass kicked for at least a year or two before anything starts happening, that takes some serious mental strength. In some way, that should be rewarded with shining the spotlight on it. That will be some hell of a mental toughness to go in day in and day out, day after day after day. All you’re going to experience is just loss and somebody squashing. They can be nice about it. Ideally, you don’t go to a [unintelligible 00:05:34] school where they’re just overly brutal about it.

The reality is that even if you’re playing nice, you’re still going to get your ass kicked. That part is where really debated– In some way, that’s the part that interesting the most about martial arts. Because we all like the perfect armbar, the great spinning back kick, the technical mastery is beautiful to watch, and we all want. One of the real benefits is that toughness that you develop by going into uncomfortable situation. By going into- getting used to losing. Getting used to getting pummeled. Getting used to fighting on when it feels hopeless. That to me that can be used outside of martial art, even more than the perfect technique that realistically I probably never going to do it outside of the martial art world.

That’s the stuff that will translate to life. Because inevitably life will deliver good [unintelligible 00:06:32] kicks that you’ll grow in, and you will have to deal with it, and you will have to have that toughness to come through when things feel hopeless.

Sonny: That makes sense to me. To get that toughness through the martial arts training, could we not also get that through just other forms of training that could possibly cause us less risk of injury? We can push ourselves, maybe someone could do triathlons and or whatever they choose. What would make the martial arts special over any other pursuit?

Danielle: What you’re saying makes perfect sense. You can get there. You can get very similar lesson through many other parts that have nothing to do with martial arts. I don’t think that martial arts is the one and only. I think there are other ways to get some of those lessons. The one thing that’s really special about martial art is that really is- it’s about neutralize conflict. When it doesn’t get any more primal, that just unarmed conflict which another you might be in the least intellectual and most objective way possible. Just through physical body clashing with one another. One will triumph, and one will get [unintelligible 00:07:50] . It’s very primal. It’s an archetype.

It’s something that you can learn lessons about conflict through playing basketball, through rock climbing, through whatever the hell you want. There are many, many paths to it. But they don’t have quite that archetypal quality that martial arts does, because really nothing deals with conflict in such a direct and raw way as martial art.

Sonny: I agree there’s that for sure that primary element of human nature that draws us towards it. If we’re being drawn back to our primal nature into a less intelligent form of being, isn’t that a dead illusion, a regression back? Should we not trying to be the civilized- live in a civilized manner and get away from all that conflict?

Danielle: Yes and no. In the sense that I feel that on one end if that’s who you are and your entire world is built on just clubbing somebody in the head and being physically dominant and that’s all you understand, I can think of better ways to spend your time. At the same time, I feel that sometimes modern civilized life which is also in a lot of ways. I like going to sleep without the thought that an enemy tribe may come in the middle of the night to cut my throat. Stuff that– I dig that part of modern life. But at the same time, there’s something that as long as we have bodies, as long as we have– There are certain energies that are part of who we are, both physical and psychological.

I think martial arts in that sense are the perfect ritualized way to tackle those very primal energies in a way that that’s constructive and can work in modern life. Nobody is telling you that in order to achieve those things, we need to organize gladiator events where we just face off with blades and one will survive. That’s taking it a little too far and in a not so healthy direction. Martial arts are that perfect medium. They give you a taste of this energy, allow you to explore it, allow you to learn that edge, allow you to learn that power about yourself and about life, without being something that takes you to a completely different way of life where it’s not even desirable.

It’s like there’s a difference between training martial arts, even fairly obsessively, and being the guy at the stadium who’s just looking for- classic thing like European soccer stadiums where the hardcore fans are using the games as an excuse to have these giant gang fights. That’s a little different. Not quite. They both deal with violence. They both deal with conflict. My way of seeing things seems a lot healthier than the alternatives.

Sonny: That’s fascinating. I’ve thought about that before where with soccer, it’s so bizarre that it has to be one of the most, I don’t know, least violent sports where they fake injuries. They just fake it. That’s part of it. Part of the sport is just getting someone brushing past you and pretending it was a catastrophic injury, which we know is not true, and yet they have the most violent fan base imaginable. How does that make sense? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around that.

Danielle: I think that speaks volume about a lot of modern society, people loss of identity, people loss of being part of a group, people desperately want to belong to something. All belonging is built on a we versus them mentality. What’s more dramatic of a we versus them, than just- we have our colors, we have our flags, they have their flags, we clash with– It goes back to something that just was there from the dawn of humankind. It’s something that [unintelligible 00:12:00] understand very well, it’s our tribe versus theirs. We don’t live in tribe anymore, but the need is still there.The need to identify with that small group, and it’s fun. You people [unintelligible 00:12:11] in soccer fans, but no sense.

Sonny: It’s interesting what you say then about the tribal conflict because I understand that, and even within the martial arts, I do think that exists still with, or it did, probably does still just within the different styles of training of martial arts. Especially, the last 10 or 20 years now, I guess, the overhaul with mixed martial arts being developed, and there’s still the traditional martial arts schools going around. I guess the broad categorization you could make is the mixed martial arts is more real, but at the same time, there’s all those barbaric elements that people get turned off from in cage fighting, that turned people away from martial arts.

Even though that’s got that benefit to it, could we not go back to just training the traditional martial arts, we don’t get injured, everyone’s happy, and we’re getting a workout in? Can we not just get the same benefits from doing that?

Danielle: There’s definitely advantages to some of that stuff. It’s like when my daughter- my daughter is 10 years old now. She started martial arts a little bit ago, I think when she was seven or something. People were like, “Oh, are you going to put her in Jiu-Jitsu?” I’m like, “No, I think I’ll just going to put her in Taekwondo at first.” Taekwondo especially it’s so much simpler to follow, there’s the structure, these guys are pros. Their , they have teaching methodology, they know exactly how to handle kids. They know how to teach them some basic body dynamics that they’re going to be able to take a bunch of other things that they’re going to do in life.

My daughter, she really doesn’t like authority very much. At school when there’s calls for the principal says this, but this my daughter follows with a roll her eyes reaction of like, “Fuck this, I don’t want to deal with this stuff.” When it came in, she loved it, she had no problem with it. I was like, “How the hell is that possible?” It’s like, “This is super regimented, and they are so–.” But it’s like, “Yes, but I trust them.” There’s something about these guys the way they teach that I accept discipline and authority from them because they do it well. I don’t accept it from those guys because they are not credible, but these guys already earned it.

I was there, usually that’s not my style at all, the kind of Korean regimented approach is far from my approach. But when I was watching the classes, I was like, “These guys are really good at it.” It’s not going to work for everybody. The next person is going to have the same setup and they are irritable, and they just spend their time yelling at kids and it doesn’t pay off, it’s not a good idea. When it’s done well, there’s something good about that approach when it’s a little more structure, when there’s more emphasis on some values that we like, especially for kids but even for adults.

Sonny: That makes sense. I actually did a bit of Taekwondo myself a couple years ago, I got the yellow belt, but then stopped. One thing I noticed is, yes, they’ve been doing it a long time, they run a good class. It was fine, it was good fun. With that authority- and I especially think that it’s good for kids as well what you’re saying, it’s perfect for kids.

Danielle: You can always do Jiu-Jitsu later, that’s great, but not right now. Early on I felt perfect to go with the traditional one.

Sonny: That makes sense. So then how do you think that people can get that authority and do it right in martial arts when they’re so open to, let’s say, people abusing that authority as well is something that we see. That’s almost an archetype in martial arts of just the dictator-hood, smashing people over the back with kendo sticks or something, and just abusing that authority. How do we get that mix right of proper respectful authority, and just this complete disabandonment of it?

Danielle: I think unfortunately it boils down to individuals. Because we can put together all the right elements that would be ideal, and in the hands of one person, they turn out perfect. In the hands of the next person, terrible. That’s why even martial arts, we all have this idea of the martial art teachers as these guys who don’t just teach you martial arts, but they have something about life they can teach and so on. Most don’t, most martial art teachers are really good at what they do, maybe, hopefully, and they don’t necessarily have deep wisdom to pass on anything else other than how to apply a good [unintelligible 00:17:07] that’s it.

You see so many cases, as you say, abuse of authority by martial art teachers on every direction. From sexual abuse, that unfortunately there’s a whole lot of that stuff that you see going on, to just psychological abuse of their students, to just money. There’s a lot of terrible people that really shouldn’t be teaching because they happen to be good athletes, and they have good technical knowledge, they are teachers. Unfortunately, that’s the same thing in anything else. If you go to school, one teacher is going to be awesome, and the next teacher is terrible, and you wasting your time. They shouldn’t have that authority.

Unfortunately, it’s very hard, it’s trial and error on the part of the customer to figure out, to separate one from the next, to figure out who’s the real deal. It’s the same thing is like, “How do you pick your friends? How do you pick the people you date?” It’s hard.

Sonny: I hear that.

Danielle: You can check all the boxes of what it should be, but then one person is amazing, and one person turns out to be a nightmare. Unfortunately, there’s no certified program to have a good date or the certified way to have a good coach. It is better to have some standards than not having them, but that doesn’t guarantee that they are going to come out being great instructors. Unfortunately, that’s the way it goes. You got to have your eyes open in any field of life when you’re looking for a martial art teacher, when you’re looking for friends, when you’re looking for whatever. Whoever you bring into your life, you need to be able to recognize who’s the real deal, and who’s not such a [unintelligible 00:18:43] human being.

Sonny: That makes sense. I guess it’s an archetype again of martial arts that the teacher, the master, is going to impart some other form of wisdom beyond just the physical training. That’s in the mythology. But then do you think that that’s a responsibility that the teacher should provide? I look around when I’m teaching, I’m just wearing pajamas in a silly costume. The person in front of me might be doctors, lawyers, whatever. Any master in their own profession. And if can tell you how to choke someone, I’m not here to tell you about life. When do you think people you should do that? Is their responsibility to do it?

Danielle: I think what you do, and these would be true in whatever you do, it doesn’t just have to be a martial art, but in whatever field you do while you have students, you’re going to teach them a technical skill, in this case martial arts, and then you’re going to share who you are. If who you are has some depth to you, if you are as something beside technical skill to offer, people are going to pick up. And if not, then yes, you really shouldn’t force it. It’s not good idea to just say, “Let me just teach you guys all about life.” In that sense, it’s going to [unintelligible 00:20:11] indirectly. Just because that’s who you are, that’s how you speak, those are the examples you bring to the table, that’s the energy that you bring to the table.

Not because you have a title, or because you have, “Everybody should listen to me because I’m the master.” It’s more like if people gravitate to you because they like what you have to say, it’s because of your charisma. It’s because maybe they listen to something you’ve said, and it really rang true to them, and they applied it in their life and it worked, and it made their life better. But you don’t do it because you sit down and think like, “Let me how I’m going to teach you the wisdom of life.” You do it because you just share who you are. If who you are can deliver that to people, then that’s great, and you should, it is important.

In anything you do, you should try to help the people you come in contact with, and especially if you have students, the goal is to teach them a skill, but also to help them in life if you’re able to. But without that arrogance of, “Oh, because I got a black belt, somehow I’m the master of life.” No, you are who you are. Again, maybe you have some wise things to pass on, maybe you don’t. I think a lot of it is role play. People take it too seriously, and they think that “Now I’m supposed to embody this idea.” It’s like, “No, you’re supposed to be you, teaching a skill.” If you happens to be somebody who is wise, who can share things that will help people in life, that’s great. You definitely shouldn’t repress that. Let it flow as part of a teacher. But it’s going to come out naturally, not because of a role that you embody.

Sonny: Yes, that’s very important. Just to focus on those skills, just giving the ability to impart the knowledge of the skills in the best possible way. Just if anything else comes from that, people get drawn to whatever else, they can take something from that. Then let that be what it is, but–

Danielle: [unintelligible 00:22:11] and it can be done humbly. It can be done where it’s like, “Hey guys, this something that for me as translated from the match to the rest of life. This is something that in my life it help. Take it as you will. It works for you, great. I’m glad if you can pick it up. You already know it, good for you. You don’t think it applies to you, who cares? That’s fine.” You just share something that is part of your experience, which is what all of us ultimately can do. It’s like, “Hey, this happens to be something that for me, it really help me.” It’s not exactly the fortune cookies irrational quote. It’s more like, “This idea really worked for me.” But again, I’m not trying to convert you to anything. It’s like, “Now I’m done. I shared it. Now it’s up to you to decide whether you want to do something with it or not.”

Sonny: That’s right. I think one of the best things about the mixed martial arts is how it allows that testing because what I found with, especially Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is one of the reasons I keep doing it is just the unique thing of solving difficult problems under stress. It’s simple. I don’t like to attach anything else to it. No mystical side. It’s just we solve problems under stress, and that can be used in any field of profession that you’re in. That’s it. That’s one of those things.

Danielle: I think as a teacher, that may be a good thing to shine a spotlight on. Like, “Hey, man, you’re doing a phenomenal job [unintelligible 00:23:46] training.” You can tell your student, “Hey, you see what a great job you’re doing under stress, coming up with solutions.” Can you do it in the rest of your life? What stops you from– Why is it that when your kids are acting up, suddenly, all your wisdom go out the door, and you’re not able to, why? Is there a way that you can make a translation from that ability that you have when we talk about Jiu-Jitsu, and you bring that to something else? You can toss ideas back and forth and figure out what are the obstacles that people struggle with, if it make sense to you. Nobody is great at everything. You can take all the- not just the technical skill, but even the mental skills that go with somebody like Michael Jordan.

Is he able to apply them in the rest of his life? If he could do that in every aspect of his life, he would be like the Buddha, right? He would be [unintelligible 00:24:48] and he’s like probably not. He has that ability. It’s easier when you have that ability in one field, to then make the jump to other fields. It’s not automatic at all, and it’s not easy, but it’s easier. I think that’s part of something that we should put attention on sometime. It’s like, okay, you’re learning these things for what for? Just because you want to win the next tournament, or just so you can have an hour of mental health when you do Jiu-Jitsu? That’s great. Nothing wrong with that.

Can we take it a step further tough? Can we take that idea and just run with it even a little bit more? Again, it’s not done in a, “I’m the wise master, let me teach you the ways.” It can be more through dialogue. It can be more to just throw in things, and that people can decide to run with or not.

Sonny: Yes, that makes sense. I would never tell someone how to fix a problem in their personal life unless they ask specifically or something, for my opinion. I’m just like, no, I don’t want to give this unsolicited, “Here’s how you should do something.” If you don’t ask, you probably don’t want to hear it from me. [laughs]

Danielle: I think the good thing there is just sharing one’s experience, because one’s experience is usually not perfect. There are situations where you mess up. There are situations where you’re frustrated, where it’s like, “Man, I should know better. How can I apply it in this context and not in this other one?” Not in the classic “Let me tell you how I was lost and then I was found” kind of thing. Again, you’re not setting yourself up to be this– You’re just sharing life. You’re just sharing things that worked, things that didn’t, ideas, and then you let people take what they will from it.

Sonny: That makes perfect sense. Just sharing those experiences. I guess probably the most important part then is just focusing on the skill and being the best that you can at the skill that you do. I guess the better you get at the skill, hey, maybe the more chance there is of people being able to pick up or learning other things from it, and probably yourself being able to learn other things from it.

Danielle: If you’re going to become a good teacher of a skill, that means you’re going to have to be a good communicator. To be a good communicator, you’re doing more than passing a skill, because that means you know how to read the people, because no two people have the same learning styles. That means that when you are working with somebody, you are able to tailor your teaching of that particular skill in a way with a tone that that person will respond. If you learn how to do that, you are learning something about life. Then you can also help somebody out in ways that are, again, more indirect. But because you have that ability, because again, a teacher is not just somebody who can perform a skill in amazing way. It doesn’t necessarily make a good teacher. I’ve had experiences sometime where–

I know I can teach well things that I’m good at, but I’ve had very funny exp– For example, my Jiu-Jitsu is pretty good. My judo kind of sucks, it’s okay at best. It’s not that great. But I’ve had days when I work with people on some judo stuff, and they are like, “Man, I learn more judo now than in the last six months.” I’m like, “How is that possible because my judo really sucks? I’m barely hanging myself. How is it possible that–.” Then I realized, and I’m like, “Oh, because I see these four guys in front of me who are way better than I am, but their communication is not the greatest.” It’s one of those that if you learn by watching, well, watch those guys because they can perform it in a way that’s so much better than I could ever could. But if you learn in other ways, maybe then that’s a different skill.

That’s not just the skill of being able to execute the move perfectly. There are other communication skills involved that somebody may respond to, but sometime we think– Even in school, they don’t teach you how– You go to school, you get a Master and you get a Ph.D, that doesn’t mean in any way that you are a good communicator. That just means that you know how to jump through the hoops to do the research or to do the whatever stuff. That is a completely different field from actually having that knowledge of being able to communicate it [unintelligible 00:29:24] Sometime we think that it’s one and the same, it’s not. Unless you work on communication, unless you work on yourself that way, that’s not going to come through just because you know the technical skill.

They are related parts. If your technical skill sucks, no matter what a good communicator you are, you’re not going to do a good job. You need more than technical skill. By itself, the technical skill is not going to do it. You also need something beyond that, that communication side.

Sonny: It’s funny. It reminds me at university, there was one day they had a lecture on how important it is to engage a classroom and keep everyone’s attention. The way they did that was the lady was reading bullet points off a PowerPoint about the importance of keeping everyone engaged, then I’m sitting here going, as anyone else, “What is going on here?” [laughs]

Danielle: Yes, it’s totally like that. Sometimes when I talk with– I don’t know if you listen to Dan Carlin who does Hardcore History podcast. He’s a absolute genius in terms of communicating history. He has a BA.. That’s it. There are like three gazillion people on earth who have more advanced degrees, who have done that more. That’s why he’s all like, “I’m not really a historian,” but it’s like, “Well, you’re more of a historian than most. You are able to communicate history so much better than three zillion of these guys with their fancy titles.”

Sonny: Part of that I think has to be the way you can tell a story of whatever information you’re trying to get across and weave it into some narrative, just to be able to get people’s attention into it, and somehow just make it interesting too. Just finding out what that is. I find it so hard to just figure out how you can do that with a dense piece of information, or risk lock or something. There’s that how do you bring that stuff to life. Do you have any ideas?

Danielle: There are a lot of ways. None of them are “it”. There are no the seven steps to become a great communicator. It’s not that easy. And I think there are a bunch of things you can do, like reading books. I think reading helps a lot because it develops your mind in certain directions, kind of like Game of Thrones thing, right? Where there’s a [unintelligible 00:31:59] look at me. What am I going to do? I’m not a warrior, I’m not the– But I sharpen my mind through reading books. That’s the skill I develop. Reading books is huge. Paying attention to people, engaging with people, communicate, making a skill of reading people. Seeing how people respond. Seeing if you use a certain tone it works with this person, but this person really doesn’t respond to it. There are so many times that I see cases where I see a person A communicating, and I totally get where they are coming from.

There’s nothing wrong with what they are saying. But they lack the body language. The tone, the humor they are using is clearly not made to be received by person B. Person A is, “What’s wrong with person B? Why can’t they get it? I’m being nice.” Personal B is, “This person is a jerk,” and it’s like you’re both right. It’s just that they are speaking different languages, and nobody’s understanding that you need to switch the language if you want to be understood by person B. You cannot communicate with person B the same way you did with person C. It’s a whole different game. That requires paying attention. [unintelligible 00:33:10] person. They’re a bunch of things that are going to do it, but definitely paying attention is huge.

Sonny: That paying attention to– I find it hard to quantify that, but I know exactly what it means. You have to just be paying attention, and then just go from that, and then you can go from instincts. It’s like pay attention to the data coming in, the scientific [unintelligible 00:33:33] and then just let that guide the instincts for however you’re going to react somehow. However that can work.

Danielle: That’s really a tricky thing. It’s like having all the skills that are human skills. It’s like saying once we agree that, for example, using humor usually helps people relax and pay more attention eventually because they’re having fun and all of that. That’s great. But if you are not a funny person by nature, that doesn’t help you. You can [unintelligible 00:34:04] thanks, but no. It works when somebody who is not funny tries to be funny. It’s like, okay, forget it. Forget humor, that was a bad idea. It’s hard because we all expect that there’s this clear blueprint to acquire certain things. They are granted. There are certain things that are more likely to deliver good results than other, but they are far from guarantees.

And some of it, unfortunately, is not very democratic, but that’s the reality of it. That not everybody has the same talent for all the same things. Some people are going to pick– I can work like a dog at the skill, and I’m never going to be as good as somebody else who has a natural talent for it and work on it on top of it. You can just improve and try to get better at it, but you’re not going to create a skill out of thin air.

Sonny: Just trying to improve and keep pushing that boundary forward and then eventually you’ll be communicating better, getting that engagement, getting that attention, and also then communicating the skill better, and maybe imparting some other lessons that people can take away.

Danielle: Yes, because what we are talking about is not just about martial arts, and it’s not even just about teaching. It’s about becoming just a good human being.

Sonny: That’s huge. [laughs]

Danielle: It’s not a simple answer.

Sonny: That’s not simple at all.

Danielle: [inaudible 00:35:37] human being. I wish it was that easy though. [inaudible 00:35:41].

Sonny: I wish it was that easy. I guess people have tried throughout history of writing down different ways that can be done, but maybe the way where we’re going now is mixing that reading of books and taking that intellectual pursuit to gain that knowledge, gain that confidence, gain that broadening of ideas, and then mixing it with cage fighting.

Danielle: Totally. I’m a big fan of a Yin-Yang approach to life. You need different things, even [unintelligible 00:36:23]. If all you do is read books, you’re going to be really good at communicating with people who are nerdy. They’re not going to necessarily how to communicate– Even if you have the intellectual understanding of what somebody who are coming from a completely different background is like, you don’t have that life experience. You don’t have that energy attached to you, so it’s not going to work. I remember I had students in– I teach in college, so I had students in my college classes who then would want to come train with me.

We’re hanging out, we’re training. Suddenly they developed a whole different attitude to work because maybe some of these guys come from straight up from the ghetto. Where it’s like, look, I like the stuff you say in the classroom. It’s cool. It’s interesting, but none of that stuff translate to my experience in the ghetto. It’s like when I can punch you in the head and you just laugh it off and smile and take me down and choke me out, that speaks a language that I understand very well from [unintelligible 00:37:26] . More than one language that way that you can adapt is something that now that same person can listen to me blab along intellectually, and be 10 times more interested, because I gained credibility in their eyes, because I excelled at something that makes sense in their world.

Similarly, it goes the other way around, right? It goes both ways. Most of life is made of different energies, and you want to try, if not to master at least to be decent at as many of them as possible. You want to be comfortable if you are talking with some professor in an Ivy League university, and if you are sitting in a room full of gangsters, you want to feel just as comfortable, right? Because you can switch the language easily from one to the– You can relate to one, and you can relate to the other, and a lot of that is life experience. A lot of that is just being open to not just stick to one thing in your whole life. I hate it when- as much as I love martial arts, I can’t stand where all the people I know in martial arts, all they can talk about is martial arts.

Come on. Do you not get bored? I love it. I get it. I can nerd out with you forever, but there’s more to life. It’s like, can we talk about something else? I think we do ourselves a disservice when we turn our passion into an obsession, where that’s the one and the only lens through which to see life. No, that’s one lens. It’s a lens I like. It’s cool, I dig it, but there’s so many other. Experienced a whole bunch of them, and then when you are at least conversational in these other languages. If not, of course, time is what it is. There are 24 hours in a day. You can’t master everything. You’re going to pick a few things they are going to focus on, but be at least decent at the many things.

Sonny: I agree. That’s probably what I’m at least trying to do myself. The one thing I sometimes think about that is the old saying “jack of all trades, master of none”. It’s like am I splitting myself too thin? Am I ever going to gain any authority in one realm if I don’t focus all my attention into that? How can that crossover be a benefit?

Danielle: I think there’s a point where it’s diminishing other thoughts. If you’re trying to be the best in the world at one thing, you probably need to dedicate an hour [unintelligible 00:40:05]. The reality is that you can become really good in a much smaller amount of time. Let’s say that you dedicate 50% of the time that somebody was obsessed with an activity [unintelligible 00:40:18] . You’re going to be really amazing at that.

Now, every 10% more that you dedicate, you’re going to gain millimeters. If it’s a game where you’re competing with the best of the best, the millimeter makes all the difference.

But if you just want to do it for life enrichment, even as a teacher, let’s say you do teach martial arts, and you gain enough ability to be– You’re a black belt in jujitsu, you’re a black belt in whatever it is, you have the technical skill, it takes time, it takes energy. But there’s a point where if all you do is keep going down that path, because I want to be the greatest black belt there is. It’s like now you’re losing a ton of time that could be put in other fields so that you could be good at six things, really good at two, and maybe you’re not the number one person in the world at any of them. [unintelligible 00:41:11]

extremely complete human being. You have a lot to your personality. You have a lot. People who know you for that one thing suddenly discover this other side of you and are like, “Wow.” That’s so much more interesting if all there is to you is, you’re the god of that one particular field. It’s like, if you want– Again, it works in sports. When you want to be the absolute best and that’s your goal, that’s a different story. It’s probably a good idea if you’re going to get heart surgery. I don’t care if my heart surgeon is a fool.

[laughter]

I wanted to do it in their sleep. That’s what, but other than those things, most of life, you can get really good at something but then there’s a point where for their time invested into that skill, what you gain is so small. That same amount of time could have been spent elsewhere and you would have gotten to a level where you’re decent at it. You’re pretty good at it.

Sonny: I agree with and I’ve thought about that a few times for the idea that if you’re an Olympic athlete, you’re going for the gold medal, you have to do things to achieve that goal that are going to be detrimental to your health, in long-term health, detrimental to other parts of your life. There’s going to be a lot of negative side effects to achieve that gold medal and that’s just the way it is and if you decide to make that your goal, you have to take that responsibility on and the competition for that too. There’s no guarantee that that’s ever going to– [laughing] There’s no guarantees, that’s ever going to happen.

Danielle: [inaudible 00:42:53] and your entire career trajectory is gone.

Sonny: One day. [laughing] You ate a bad breakfast that morning and maybe that throws it off. It’s a big risk and I salute those people who take it but if you are trying to mix a few different skill pursuits together and get it at good level for all of those, you can actually find yourself in a situation that you’ve created a unique skill set or unique combination of things that maybe you could be the best at that. Maybe, maybe not, or just some level of a unique skill set and depth about you.

Danielle: Absolutely and I think that’s what makes you you. You’re able to do these four, five, six, whatever many things fairly well in a way that allows you to become a more complete human being, which for the point of view of just mental and physical health and relating to other people is way more valuable than becoming the one guy that feel. The one guy, the specialist is usually not the most fun human being to be around because all they can talk about is that one thing. All they know about is that one thing. It doesn’t translate to a life skill. It translate to just that one field and it’s like–

I don’t know, I feel like there’s so much more to life to it that it’s what you were saying about the Olympic athletes. It’s really become detrimental to your overall well being.

Sonny: With that detrimental thing to our well being, if we’re taking the pursuit of being that number one, what do you think is it with the martial arts, particularly the modern martial arts? We go into it knowing that, maybe not even going into it but eventually, everyone’s going to experience some kind of injury probably. People could get lucky and it’s maybe the role of the teacher to minimize the risk of injury, but that’s going to happen. There’s going to be that detrimental side effects, and then, can we not just take a more softer approach, and does that just lead itself to falling over when we come up to against any real test of the abilities?

Danielle: Well, and I think that’s where there’s a line. It’s a balance. It’s he’s [unintelligible 00:45:29] hard all the time, you’re going to get brain damage. Queasy all the time, is completely not realistic and the first time you take a real punch, you’re completely shocked and can’t handle it. You want to find probably around the side of safety, you want more on the soft than the hard, but you need to add a little bit of the health experience in a controlled fashion. Just something that give you that edge.

I think that’s the important thing, it’s fine. That balance is not the same for everybody. If you are 18 years old, and you heal from injuries really fast, you can push a little harder. If you are some 50-year-old guy, you have to tailor that balance in a different direction. We all do it because everybody’s body’s fragile to one degree or another, but that exact spot changes in life, changes from one person to the next. I know a lot of people, for example, I’m 46 now and generally speaking, the people who are good at Judo, they do it from when they are kids because you take so much damage getting thrown that nobody wants to learn Judo in their 40s. You’re already good by that point.

You’re not going to ever become the best at it. You’re not going to win the Olympics. You’re not going to do any of that but so many will never train because it’s taught in a way that just too hard. That is built to teach 15-year-old kids, not to teach people who are adults, who start when they are in their 30s or 40s or 50s, but can you teach it in a way where these people will still learn something valuable? Yes, you can. You can switch it around rather than doing hard randori all the time where people slam each other, you can do more of a playful randori, where you’re doing a lot of entries.

If I am balanced when they set you up for the sweep, and you are right there and I’m holding, I don’t even need to take you down at that point. It’s like both you and I know that I had it, that he was there. Now once in a while, we go a little harder and will do go for the full take-down, but a bunch of times, rather than having to get thrown 300 times a night, you get thrown five times a night and suddenly, you learn a lot of skills that sure, the guy who’s getting thrown 300 times and going at that level of intensity probably learns more stuff if they don’t break down. [chuckles]

Probably is like, “Great. That was realistic” and you learned all this stuff but now three years later, you can no longer practice. Who’s going to get better? The guy who practice a little more mellow for the next 20 years or the guy who push hard and destroy their body?

Sonny: I know what you mean and I think that’s a good point for talking about how to keep people engaged, knowing what would be the best way to tailor training of martial arts to the different body types and ages and whatever their goals will be. That’s probably the most important thing about being able to keep someone engaged and learn whatever it is you’re trying to impart is by making sure they keep showing up on the mats and don’t just decide to quit.

Danielle: [unintelligible 00:48:33] because that’s huge, right? It’s like, I realized, I’m not going to be able to do certain things, and that’s okay, but I can still get decent, I can still learn some stuff. I can have fun. I can. Why not? That’s a good goal. I’m down with that. Again, it’s not the Olympic athlete goal, but it’s a goal that works for my life. That means me healthy, that adds elements to my life. If the only choices are train like a madman or don’t train at all, those are not great choices. The person who can afford to train a madman, they are few and far between, and more likely than not, they are not going to be able to do it for in their entire life.

Sonny: I agree with that and makes me think about the rolling of competition because I know there’s a saying of something along the lines of, once in your life you should train as if your life depended on it or, as hard as you ever train before. I get where that’s coming from. I feel like everyone– You should compete at least once in jujitsu, which has a relatively low risk of injury, but I understand it’s not for everyone too and if your job involves you– If an injury happened and you lost your job and everything would be thrown into chaos, I get it.

Danielle: You train very differently and that’s fine. Again, it’s not a bad thing. There are limits to what you can do and that’s okay.

Sonny: What do you think they could be missing out by never competing or what’s that extra benefit of pushing yourself that one time to get into a competition that– Can you learn that elsewhere or can that only be learned in competition?

Danielle: Some of the stuff are competition, it’s hard to replicate [unintelligible 00:50:16] The reality is that people are going to go way higher there in a way that when you have never experienced it, it’s very hard to even imagine. The first time people compete is like, first they don’t know what it’s to be under the level of pressure. They may be gods in the gym, but now, suddenly, they feel they wake up in the morning and their heart is racing, it’s hard to breathe, and their muscles are tensing up and they’re like, “What? Why?

What’s going on? I’ve never–” You experience that mental state of it. The fear. This time, you’re not going to experience when you’re on the mat with your friend rolling easy. That just not, but in some way, it’s fun not to experience those things, because it’s not a great state to be. For the next three days, I’m just going to be mostly in fear and anxiety. It’s like, “Yes, let me sign up for that. That sounds so fun.”

[laughter]

Danielle: [unintelligible 00:51:12] right?

Sonny: Yes.

Danielle: No, you don’t want to do that all the time, but as an experience, it’s something that mainly allows you to learn how to deal with fear and anxiety a little bit better. Maybe. Often it does and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes you reinforce with fear and anxiety because you’re afraid, you’re anxious you go out there, you get squashed. You’re more traumatised about it you never want to do it again. It’s worse than if you never did it. It’d have been better for you not to do it at all.

The idea you do it with enough wisdom or where you compete, who you compete against, all of that. You learn that. You get that experience but in a way that allows you to thrive. Maybe you don’t win but you still feel good about it. You feel, “I dealt with it. I felt that anxiety and I was able to step up and perform at my best.”

Sonny: That’s pretty much what I experience every time I enter a competition. I enjoy competition myself and I try entering as much as I can. I understand that’s just me, but man, entering and it’s fine, but the morning of the competition I’m always like, “Why did I do this? I could be out somewhere. It’s a sunny day outside. I could be doing anything else. Sit at the beach, go on and see a movie, kicking back, having a good time. Instead I’m driving to a gym in the middle of somewhere where some guy is going to try and break my arm and sweat all over me and it’s going to be really uncomfortable. What on earth am I thinking?”

Then always, when it’s done, win, lose, or draw, whatever happens I’m like, “Ah.” It’s a sense of relief and I’m glad I did that. That was fun. That was enjoyable, it was a good experience. I still after all these years, I don’t know why that is. [laughs] How that happens, why I keep doing it, I don’t know.

Danielle: What is it you like about the competition then? If you do feel that stuff, you do feel like, “This sucks.” What is it that makes you want to do it?

Sonny: I really don’t know because it’s that something because probably if I didn’t get that fear, I don’t think I’d like it as much. It’s something, that relief afterwards of, “It wasn’t so bad.” [laughs] That “Aha, that was good, that was fun. It wasn’t–” Maybe it’s probably anyone I can have negative thoughts about what’s going to happen in the world and I can get entrapped into ways of thinking about, “Oh, this is going to go wrong in my life. This is going to go bad in my life and something is going to come and hit me one day. Everything is going to turn to chaos.”

You get trapped in those thought patterns. [laughs] Even thinking about it, I can start thinking of examples that I can go back to. When I enter in those competitions, I guess some of that– There’s a tangible example of I’m having bad thoughts about things that could happen on this specific day at this specific time in this specific match. Are these thoughts real? The last competition I had, I was coming back from injury. I had minuscule surgery on my knee at the start of the year and I really wanted to compete by the end of the year just to say I overcame that injury.

At the morning of, I was like, “What am I thinking because I haven’t given it enough time? I’m going to reinjure this knee for sure. Let me just tape it up as much as I can because–” By the time I got to the venue I was thinking, “For sure, there is no way I was getting out of this without re-injuring my knee.” I just had– All the negative thoughts were filled in me.

That’s my prediction of the world I guess. My prediction is, “I’m going here today and I’m going to stuff up my knee again. Well, can’t change anything about that, too late.” Of course, I go in the match, didn’t go my way but the knee was fine. I was wrong. Great. Those negative thoughts weren’t re– Those negative thoughts weren’t real. What a relief. Every negative thought I have isn’t going to come true, brilliant. Thanks so much. That gives me a– I, don’t know that’s the motivation to know the good things will come true sometimes too and not all the negatives will come true. Let’s go with that.

Danielle: There’s something about dealing with fear that people who never ever have to be with fear or unpleasant scenes, the day when those scenes show up in their lives they’re completely unprepared for that. If you have had at least a little bit of ritualized experience, like a martial art competition, it certainly helps. It help to deal with that because otherwise, it is a crashing thing. Fear is [unintelligible 00:56:19] and caution.

Sonny: It’s something that– I think a hard thing is then balancing that fear. I know it’s popular just to be we only need positive thinking about that. Banish all fear.

Danielle: Well, good luck. You can want to banish it all you want but it’s going to show up. The other guy across the cage wants to take your head off. You could have thought positive all you want, but it’s just like, bam, three out. This is not just about what I think, this is about these people who’s coming to kill me.

Sonny: I remember one time I even did that with training where I was thinking, you know what, it’s just my mindset that why I’m getting smashed in this role against this person. It was just in my head if I go in there and I just think confident thoughts, “I know I’m beating this guy today. There’s nothing that’s going to change it” then that’s the thing and then the same thing happened, of course. [laughs] The thoughts, maybe they helped a bit.

Danielle: They have for sure. It’s better than [inaudible 00:57:28] Again, those things are not wrong but they’re inches. It can improve your game a few inches, it’s not going to throw in– Just because I think positive, I’m not going to beat the best in the world tomorrow if anything. It’s just going to be– it’s super interesting. It is important to develop those aspects without becoming dogmatic about it where you think that that’s the solution [unintelligible 00:57:53] because [unintelligible 00:57:54]

Sonny: That’s where I know the danger is and you don’t want to have that delusional confidence that it’s not based on anything. At least with the martial arts, I can get that test. I can get that. Is my confidence warranted? Yes or no.

Danielle: That’s [inaudible 00:58:11]

Sonny: [laughs] I know. Exactly, it’s a firm gauge of my positive and negative thoughts. The confidence and fear. What’s my ability to judge this accurately? Let’s go have a look.

Danielle: Absolutely. That’s exactly how it is. It’s funny how we forget how much of the game is mental because martial art is about fear. It’s different if it was some other sport. You have the fear, there’s performance anxiety for sure. You can have performance anxiety about anything. It’s like when people are afraid to give public speech because it’s you making sound with your mouth. I understand there’s fear that can come from self-esteem, from how people are going to judge you but objectively there’s nothing to be afraid of.

In martial art, objectively, there is-

[laughter]

It’s not just me doing my thing, it’s this person who’s going to try to slam me. They’ve trained the [inaudible 00:59:10] last years to become more assertive and destroy me. I can see how that will [inaudible 00:59:14] anxiety in [unintelligible 00:59:15]

Sonny: [laughs] It’s funny, but yes, without a doubt, you’ve got something to worry about. [laughs]

Danielle: [inaudible 00:59:26] I’ve seen it sometime. What’s funny is that the same person who can be amazing one day can drown the next man. It’s like they can be mentally perfect in one occasion and in the next one they’re just not there. It’s so weird to see because it’s like, “Wait, you did it perfectly the last time, what changed this time?” There are so many little factors that can make or break you mentally.

Nobody is just mentally invincible and nobody is mentally such crap that they’re going to fail every time. There’s a possibility for everybody to rise above and to sink below. Clearly, the better you’ve got at it and the more you have done it, the more the odds are you’re going to stay in a certain range, but there’s [inaudible 01:00:12] is different.

Sonny: There’s that reaching of potential. I guess that taking it back to the beginning, that’s probably one of our types of– That’s one of the mythological things of martial arts over anything else is that you could potentially reach your potential with this. [laughs]

Danielle: On a good day it’s like that, next day, maybe not so much.

Sonny: [laughs] That firm line in the sand, that’s important. You can’t get that through everything for sure, but you’re definitely going to get it with this.

Danielle: I think if I remember correctly it was [unintelligible 01:00:58] Jackson who said it. Who said that, “Everybody can be broken. The point of training is to bring the line which will be broken so far that the other person is not going to be able to push you there likely.” It’s not that that line doesn’t exist anymore, you still have it. If you apply enough pressure, everybody breaks.

Sonny: That’s it. That’s right.

Danielle: It’s to push the line so far that we are going to be able to discover it and push you there. It’s not [unintelligible 01:01:28] there is no such thing.

Sonny: That’s so true. I think it’s our own general kind of quote. Maybe you never know what quotes you read online, if the person said it or not. I’m not trying to be better than someone else. I’m just trying to be better than yesterday.

Danielle: Yes, definitely. That’s all you can do. That’s [inaudible 01:01:53] is a whole other– All you can control is yourself ultimately. You don’t control opponents, you don’t control how well they’re going to perform, you don’t control any of that. That’s why I even like focusing on new victory. [unintelligible 01:02:07] it’s more [unintelligible 01:02:07] All you got to focus on is just going out there and doing the best job you can, putting everything on the line. That you do have under control. You can control that aspect.

If I go out there, I put everything on the line, I do the best job, and I fight somebody who’s 100 pounds heavier than me and they are the greatest heavyweight of all time, [laughing] I’d still feel like [unintelligible 01:02:30] That I can control. Again, all you control is your mental attitude and what you bring to the table. That’s it.

Sonny: Danielle, thanks so much. What a great conversation that I’ve enjoyed having with you.

Danielle: Thank you so much. It was definitely a lot of fun.

Sonny: Like I said, I’ve been a fan of your work. When I saw you comment on something of mine, I was very happy, let’s just say. [chuckles] I was like, “Wow.”

Danielle: I was watching your videos and I’m like, “Oh man, I love his videos. They’re such great, great balance.” I dig down [unintelligible 01:03:07] there were commented on it and you responded, “Hey, I really like your book.” I was like, “Oh, perfect.” It’s so great. It works nice that way.

Sonny: It was very cool. I’ll just say that. I’m very, very happy. If people want to get in touch with you, what the best way they can get- [sound cut]

[01:03:26] [END OF AUDIO]